[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Attila Kinali]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 +
li...@lazygranch.com wrote:

> Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
> buying boat anchors a thing of the past.

What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
I could need a "modern" DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek.
But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost
nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my budget,
even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get
one for 500 that isn't half usable.

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Hal Murray]

> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?

http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-January/061925.html


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Andrea Baldoni]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:

> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
> 
> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?

I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets
more than the maker.

To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was
then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity
beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the
Fluke is very good.

Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply.
I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I
had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too
is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is
not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
(I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision
items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator)

To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work
as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed
you should enjoy doing it!)

Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

I did want to add to my earlier comments that I have 3 radio clocks and all
worked during this time. So from the east coast it seems the modulation
does not effect radio clocks.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Jim Hickstein  wrote:

> >psk fixer-uppers not working all that well. Back to the drawing boards as
> >they say.
>
> My Spectracom 8170 was showing lock but not time sync, for a while last
> night, several hours.  Longer than usual, when it's just getting a grip.
>  (I didn't set up to record its outputs, alas!)  At other times, and this
> morning, it's just unlocked.
>
> The 8164 has been unlocked throughout, as expected, and its strip-chart
> recorder shows the usual open-loop pattern.  When the test ends I should
> have a nice picture bracketing it.
>
> My MFJ-133 clock is happy enough, as predicted.  The Junghans Mega seems
> to be.  It's harder to tell with the others, that only have hands and no
> direct indication of receiver state.
>
> Interesting that the NIST's own monitoring stations (
> http://tf.nist.gov/tf-cgi/**wwvbmonitor_e.cgi)
> variously show readable time codes, and highly atypical plots of relative
> field strength.  I wonder how they're measuring those.  Again, LaCrosse is
> the big loser on readability, for some reason.
>
> I also finally hauled the spectrum analyzer (HP 141T/8552B/8553B) up from
> the basement, got together a DC block and a BNC tee, and tried to see what
> I could see.  Nothing.  60 kHz is mighty close to DC, on this thing.  Too
> close, evidently.  Perhaps I should be looking somewhere inside the 8164.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Antenna Restrictions...

[Chuck Harris]

Bill Hawkins wrote:

I can tell you that the vent stack exists solely to prevent siphoning
water out of J and P traps while water is running.


You could tell me that, but your statement would be in error.

To wit, were it not for the stack vents, houses with septic systems (which
because of their being buried, are sealed to the outside air), would have
smelly sewer gas bubbles blow out of the water traps every time you flushed
the loo.

But, to help steer this unfortunate misdirection of the thread back on
topic, I will reiterate:

The stack vent is not a safe place to put sensitive electronics.  The
vented sewer gas is quite corrosive, and can render your electronics
inert.

If you want to use a vent like structure as camouflage for a GPS antenna,
go to your local big box store, buy a roof seal, and a short piece of PVC
drain pipe.  Nail it to some likely looking position on your roof, and
nobody, save for possibly a plumber, will ever guess that it doesn't
belong there.   You could even mount a bullet antenna on top of the stack,
and most would assume it was just some sort of protective cap to keep the
birds out.

-Chuck Harris


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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[J. Forster]

I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be
small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use
to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.

Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
to a 10,000+ character alphabet?

-John






> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
>> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
>> make
>> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>>
>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
>
> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
> sheets
> more than the maker.
>
> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what
> was
> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
> continuity
> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
> while the
> Fluke is very good.
>
> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
> supply.
> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon
> as I
> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
> Agilent too
> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
> quality is
> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
> precision
> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
> generator)
>
> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for
> work
> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
> supposed
> you should enjoy doing it!)
>
> Best regards,
> Andrea Baldoni
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Kevin Rosenberg]

On Apr 14, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Shaun Merrigan wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone on the list is monitoring their WWVB gear at the
> moment?  I got in a bit late, but I have been recording my 8170 since about
> 0300 and it has remained locked.  QTH here is about 1500km north of Ft.
> Collins.

Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Eric Garner]

I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work,
designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis
just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a
complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In
my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age.


-Eric

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster  wrote:
> I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be
> small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use
> to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
>
> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
> 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
> to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
>
> -John
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
>>
>>> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
>>> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
>>> make
>>> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>>>
>>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
>>
>> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
>> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
>> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
>> sheets
>> more than the maker.
>>
>> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
>> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what
>> was
>> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
>> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
>> continuity
>> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
>> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
>> while the
>> Fluke is very good.
>>
>> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
>> supply.
>> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon
>> as I
>> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
>> Agilent too
>> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
>> quality is
>> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
>> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
>> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
>> precision
>> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
>> generator)
>>
>> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for
>> work
>> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
>> supposed
>> you should enjoy doing it!)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Andrea Baldoni
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.



-- 
--Eric
_
Eric Garner

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Jim Lux]

On 4/16/12 8:19 AM, Eric Garner wrote:

I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work,
designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis
just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a
complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In
my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age.





yes.. they save knobs by not having on a spectrum analyzer for instance, 
a separate knob for center frequency, span, and reference level.



On the scopes, it's not so bad.. you have one knob for vertical and one 
for horizontal, and it seems to make sense.


But the UI is what has always separated brands of test equipment.

Those of us who grew up with Tek Scopes always found the HP scopes a bit 
weird to use.  Likewise, you get used to the HP spectrum analyzer and 
signal generator, and going to something else is a bit weird.



Power supplies are the worst.  even within the same mfr, it seems every 
PS has different ways to do the current limit, the OVP, to switch the 
metering, etc.


The new Agilent supplies (like the N6700 series), though, are very 
cool.. they have a built in ARB to do soft starts and transient testing, 
and a built in oscilloscope function to look at inrush.  And they're 
available in two versions.. one with knobs on the front panel and 
binding posts for bench use, and a basically identical unit with a few 
buttons on the front panel, and connections on the back for use in a rack.



These days, I look for the remote interface, and if I'm going to be 
typing on a keyboard, I'd rather do it on the host PC, not the instrument.



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Tom Knox]

I was speaking several years ago to someone at Tektronix and asked why they did 
not still make an analog scope.
He told me cost was the reason, simply price; to make a modern version of the 
7104 or 2467B would cost nearly as much as an Italian sports car.
I have the Latest 40Gs/s scope and it is fantastic but still have a LeCroy 
LA354 analog (of sorts) scope as a second opinion. 
All that said, as someone who brokers equipment, it is difficult to justify as 
a reseller older scopes less the 500MHz in light of the great products coming 
out of China.

Thomas Knox



> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:19:58 -0700
> From: garn...@gmail.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
> 
> I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work,
> designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis
> just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a
> complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In
> my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age.
> 
> 
> -Eric
> 
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster  wrote:
> > I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be
> > small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use
> > to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
> >
> > Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
> > 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
> > to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
> >
> > -John
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
> >>
> >>> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> >>> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
> >>> make
> >>> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
> >>>
> >>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
> >>
> >> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
> >> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
> >> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
> >> sheets
> >> more than the maker.
> >>
> >> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
> >> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what
> >> was
> >> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
> >> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
> >> continuity
> >> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
> >> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
> >> while the
> >> Fluke is very good.
> >>
> >> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
> >> supply.
> >> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon
> >> as I
> >> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
> >> Agilent too
> >> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
> >> quality is
> >> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
> >> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
> >> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
> >> precision
> >> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
> >> generator)
> >>
> >> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for
> >> work
> >> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
> >> supposed
> >> you should enjoy doing it!)
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Andrea Baldoni
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --Eric
> _
> Eric Garner
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[NeonJohn]

On 04/16/2012 03:46 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?

I have one of the Rigol 2 channel 100 MHz 1GHz sampling rate scopes.
Can't recall the model number.  It's the one that either HP or Tek
private labels.

It is superb.  It was with great sadness that I removed my Tek 465 and a
more modern 4 channel unit from my bench and now have them covered and
stored in the back corner of my shop.  I just don't need them.

There is a rumor that one also needs an analog scope.  While that was
true with my FlukeScope, it is not with the Rigol.  It has the look and
feel of an analog storage scope but without the bloom or fade.

Disclaimer: I design induction heaters and so deal mostly with low
frequency (<20MHz) stuff.  I do have one of those scope testers that Tek
used to hand out.  The Rigol looks just like the pictures in the manual
that came with the tester.

John


John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Bob Bownes]

You know, I have a 1Gig Tek digital (DSA602 with 11A72/11A71,11A34) on my
bench and a 1G Tek analog (7934). The 7934 never gets fired up anymore. I
really should reclaim the space.


On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:

>
> I was speaking several years ago to someone at Tektronix and asked why
> they did not still make an analog scope.
> He told me cost was the reason, simply price; to make a modern version of
> the 7104 or 2467B would cost nearly as much as an Italian sports car.
> I have the Latest 40Gs/s scope and it is fantastic but still have a LeCroy
> LA354 analog (of sorts) scope as a second opinion.
> All that said, as someone who brokers equipment, it is difficult to
> justify as a reseller older scopes less the 500MHz in light of the great
> products coming out of China.
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:19:58 -0700
> > From: garn...@gmail.com
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
> >
> > I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work,
> > designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis
> > just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a
> > complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In
> > my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age.
> >
> >
> > -Eric
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster  wrote:
> > > I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It
> may be
> > > small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench
> use
> > > to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
> > >
> > > Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
> > > 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are
> used
> > > to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
> > >
> > > -John
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have
> "real"
> > >>> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
> > >>> make
> > >>> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
> > >>>
> > >>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
> > >>
> > >> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke
> instruments,
> > >> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy
> instruments for
> > >> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
> > >> sheets
> > >> more than the maker.
> > >>
> > >> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
> > >> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose
> what
> > >> was
> > >> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
> > >> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
> > >> continuity
> > >> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not
> PC
> > >> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
> > >> while the
> > >> Fluke is very good.
> > >>
> > >> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
> > >> supply.
> > >> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as
> soon
> > >> as I
> > >> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
> > >> Agilent too
> > >> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
> > >> quality is
> > >> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like
> the
> > >> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
> > >> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
> > >> precision
> > >> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
> > >> generator)
> > >>
> > >> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable,
> for
> > >> work
> > >> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because
> it's
> > >> supposed
> > >> you should enjoy doing it!)
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >> Andrea Baldoni
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> >
> >
> > --
> > --Eric
> > _
> > Eric Garner
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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> time-

Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <4f8c3ecd.1080...@neon-john.com>, NeonJohn writes:

>There is a rumor that one also needs an analog scope.

Where analog scopes generally win is in X-Y mode, most digitals I've
seen suck at that.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] OFF TOPIC - looking for a local ham operator ...

[Bob Smither]

Fellow Nutters,

A friend of mine (not on this list) wants to revive his interest in ham radio.
He lives in Friendswood, Texas (zip: 77546).

If you would be willing to help him get re-started in the hobby, please reply to
me off list and I will get you together with him.

Thanks!
-- 
Bob Smither, PhD   Circuit Concepts, Inc.
=

 - Ubi libertas habitat, ibi nostra patria est -
   "Where liberty dwells, there is my country"

=
smit...@c-c-i.com  http://www.C-C-I.Com  281-331-2744(office)  -4616(fax)
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[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Marvin Gozum]

At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years.

In summary, in the <= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are 
better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are 
consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy 
and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support.

Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies.  Those differences 
will help you choose between the better 3 brands.

Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others.  
Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 
1-4 GHz level.  Support is mostly via the sellers.  In the USA, Rigol has a 
subsidiary that provides responsive support.

Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be 
plagued with construction flaws.  Its acceptable if your seller will exchange 
any defective units you purhcase.  Owon has provided tech and hardware support 
directly from China, including spares.

Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic 
measurement.


At 04:19 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:27 +0200
From: Attila Kinali 
To: li...@lazygranch.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement 
Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Message-ID: <20120416094627.f245ebdfd5df7305dd528...@kinali.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 +
li...@lazygranch.com wrote:

> Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
> buying boat anchors a thing of the past.

What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
I could need a "modern" DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek.
But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost
nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my budget,
even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get
one for 500 that isn't half usable.

Attila Kinali

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[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Marvin Gozum]

FWIW the 3000 series Agilents were rebadged Rigols.  The newer entry levels to 
mid-range scopes are now all designed and built by Agilent in their Malaysia 
plant.



At 08:00 04/16/2012, you wrote:
--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:23:08 +0200
From: "Andrea Baldoni" 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re:  LORAN-C at MIT)
Message-ID: <20120416112308.ga20...@sol.ermione.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:

> > Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> > scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
> > buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>
> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?

I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets
more than the maker.

To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was
then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity
beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the
Fluke is very good.

Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply.
I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I
had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too
is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is
not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
(I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision
items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator)

To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work
as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed
you should enjoy doing it!)

Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Hal Murray]

j...@quikus.com said:
> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user
> friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a
> 10,000+ character alphabet? 

How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't even 
exist on older scopes?

Here is an example:  The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is buried 
deep in a menu.  That's better than cluttering up the box with another button.


My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu buttons.

One of the knobs is trigger level.  2 are horizontal scale and position.  2 
are vertical scale and position.  The 6th knob is for the current menu item.

The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels.  If you want to adjust 
the other channel you have to poke a button first.  Sure, I'd prefer 2 more 
knobs.  I can live with this.  It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more knobs if 
you did decide that was important.  Making the box an inch wider looks like 
the obvious way.

Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is the 
AC/DC coupling switch on the input.  I won't miss the Focus knob. :)

Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs.

---

I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope.  One is chasing a glitch.  
The other is collecting data.

When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the menus. 
 Yes, it's annoying.  Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't remember 
how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts.  Overall, it's 
not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware.  (I remember 
having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.)

It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob actions.

Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching the 
screen or poking Enter on my PC.

--

If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas.

One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control.  It's good 
enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good.  (I haven't tried 
their software: no Windows boxes here.)


The other is the probes.  Good probes are still expensive.  The Rigol unit 
came with old big/clunky probes.  Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch on 
their probe?  (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on small, 
slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.)

For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz.  With a 
bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz.  Beyond 
that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help.  They also 
help with modern surface mount parts.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[J. Forster]

> At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3
> years.
>
> In summary, in the <= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there
> are better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and
> Uni-T are consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are
> measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
> support.

Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is
"accurate". I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the
electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and
aliasing.

If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential
comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter.

Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output
and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was
designed to do waveform measurement.

I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?

The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced
it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do
160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No.

YMMV,

-John



> Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies.  Those
> differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands.
>
> Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others.
> Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in
> the 1-4 GHz level.  Support is mostly via the sellers.  In the USA, Rigol
> has a subsidiary that provides responsive support.
>
> Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but
> can be plagued with construction flaws.  Its acceptable if your seller
> will exchange any defective units you purhcase.  Owon has provided tech
> and hardware support directly from China, including spares.
>
> Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic
> measurement.
>
>
> At 04:19 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:27 +0200
> From: Attila Kinali 
> To: li...@lazygranch.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement 
> Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
> Message-ID: <20120416094627.f245ebdfd5df7305dd528...@kinali.ch>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 +
> li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
>
>> Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
>> scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
>> buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>
> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
> I could need a "modern" DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek.
> But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost
> nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my
> budget,
> even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get
> one for 500 that isn't half usable.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[J. Forster]

>
> j...@quikus.com said:
>> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
>> 'user
>> friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to
>> a
>> 10,000+ character alphabet?
>
> How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't
> even exist on older scopes?

Older 'scopes didn't NEED to re-allocate memory, or use "peak" modes to
avoid sampling artifacts.

> Here is an example:  The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is
> buried
> deep in a menu.  That's better than cluttering up the box with another
> button.
>
>
> My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu
> buttons.
>
> One of the knobs is trigger level.  2 are horizontal scale and position.
> 2
> are vertical scale and position.  The 6th knob is for the current menu
> item.
>
> The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels.  If you want to
> adjust
> the other channel you have to poke a button first.  Sure, I'd prefer 2
> more
> knobs.  I can live with this.  It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more
knobs if you did decide that was important.  Making the box an inch
wider looks like the obvious way.
>
> Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is
> the
> AC/DC coupling switch on the input.  I won't miss the Focus knob. :)
>
> Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs.

All Tek 'scopes have AC/DC/GND,and some have trace identify. 50 Ohm is
easy with a throughy terminator.

-John

===
>
> ---
>
> I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope.  One is chasing a glitch.
> The other is collecting data.
>
> When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the
> menus.
>  Yes, it's annoying.  Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't
> remember
> how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts.  Overall, it's
> not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware.  (I remember
> having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.)
>
> It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob
> actions.
>
> Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching
> the
> screen or poking Enter on my PC.
>
> --
>
> If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas.
>
> One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control.  It's good
> enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good.  (I haven't tried
> their software: no Windows boxes here.)
>
>
> The other is the probes.  Good probes are still expensive.  The Rigol unit
> came with old big/clunky probes.  Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch
> on
> their probe?  (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on
> small,
> slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.)
>
> For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz.  With a
> bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz.  Beyond
> that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help.  They
> also
> help with modern surface mount parts.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Peter Gottlieb]

Heard a story of someone who went to a high performance driving school 
for racers.  One of the specialty cars had an encounter with a wall and 
was out of service so the instructor grabbed an ordinary street rental 
car from the lot.  Everyone laughed until the instructor out-drove them all.


If you know what you are looking for and understand the instruments you 
can indeed do what you need to with a 500 MHz analog scope.


Peter


On 4/16/2012 1:59 PM, J. Forster wrote:

At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3
years.

In summary, in the<= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there
are better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and
Uni-T are consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are
measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
support.

Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is
"accurate". I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the
electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and
aliasing.

If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential
comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter.

Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output
and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was
designed to do waveform measurement.

I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?

The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced
it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do
160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No.

YMMV,

-John




Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies.  Those
differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands.

Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others.
Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in
the 1-4 GHz level.  Support is mostly via the sellers.  In the USA, Rigol
has a subsidiary that provides responsive support.

Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but
can be plagued with construction flaws.  Its acceptable if your seller
will exchange any defective units you purhcase.  Owon has provided tech
and hardware support directly from China, including spares.

Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic
measurement.


At 04:19 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:27 +0200
From: Attila Kinali
To: li...@lazygranch.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Message-ID:<20120416094627.f245ebdfd5df7305dd528...@kinali.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 +
li...@lazygranch.com wrote:


Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make
buying boat anchors a thing of the past.

What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
I could need a "modern" DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek.
But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost
nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my
budget,
even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get
one for 500 that isn't half usable.

Attila Kinali

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[John Ackermann N8UR]

On 4/16/2012 1:47 PM, Marvin Gozum wrote:

At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years.

In summary, in the<= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are 
better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are 
consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy 
and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support.

Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies.  Those differences 
will help you choose between the better 3 brands.

Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others.  
Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 
1-4 GHz level.  Support is mostly via the sellers.  In the USA, Rigol has a 
subsidiary that provides responsive support.

Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be 
plagued with construction flaws.  Its acceptable if your seller will exchange 
any defective units you purhcase.  Owon has provided tech and hardware support 
directly from China, including spares.

Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic 
measurement.


I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a "toss in" when I 
bought one of their arbs.


It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen 
at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds.  I emailed Rigol US 
about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not. 
 My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) 
doesn't show the flicker.


The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses 
that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems 
ubiquitous in Chinese documentation.  Anyone know why they use that 
versus something more pleasant on the eyes?


John


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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[paul swed]

Interesting read but have not figured out the MIT loran thread part of the
header. This is about chinese scopes

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:27 PM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

> On 4/16/2012 1:47 PM, Marvin Gozum wrote:
>
>> At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3
>> years.
>>
>> In summary, in the<= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there
>> are better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and
>> Uni-T are consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are
>> measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
>> support.
>>
>> Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies.  Those
>> differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands.
>>
>> Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others.
>>  Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in
>> the 1-4 GHz level.  Support is mostly via the sellers.  In the USA, Rigol
>> has a subsidiary that provides responsive support.
>>
>> Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but
>> can be plagued with construction flaws.  Its acceptable if your seller will
>> exchange any defective units you purhcase.  Owon has provided tech and
>> hardware support directly from China, including spares.
>>
>> Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic
>> measurement.
>>
>
> I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a "toss in" when I bought
> one of their arbs.
>
> It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen at
> fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds.  I emailed Rigol US about
> it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not.  My Tek
> 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) doesn't show
> the flicker.
>
> The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses
> that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems ubiquitous
> in Chinese documentation.  Anyone know why they use that versus something
> more pleasant on the eyes?
>
> John
>
>
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
"J. Forster"  wrote:

> I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
> 'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?

Well... if i had a 500MHz analog scope, i wouldnt want anything better..
ok, well maybe the storage function of DSO's is nice, but other than
that, i don't need much more and for home use i'd be happy with a 500MHz
analog... but, the only scope i have is a 2 channel 50MHz one. I definitly
could have a use for two more channels and a bit of more bandwidth.
The rest is nice to have.

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:47:37 +
Marvin Gozum  wrote:

> At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years.
> 
> In summary, in the <= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but
> there are better and worse.  Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten
> and Uni-T are consistently rated less.  The criteria for rating them are
> measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
> support.

Thanks! that is the info i was looking for!

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:32:07 -0400
paul swed  wrote:

> Interesting read but have not figured out the MIT loran thread part of the
> header. This is about chinese scopes

This is because i forked of the MIT loran thread. Ie i replied to a mail
in the MIT loran thread that mentioned chinese scopes. And to make it clear
that the discussion isn't about any MIT flea market anymore, i changed
the subject. And as it is custom, i left the original subject line
enclosed in "(was:"..")" 

Attila Kinali
-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[J. Forster]

IMO, the place you really need >2-4 channels is logic analyzers, not 'scopes.

YMMV,

-John





> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
> "J. Forster"  wrote:
>
>> I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz
>> analog
>> 'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?
>
> Well... if i had a 500MHz analog scope, i wouldnt want anything better..
> ok, well maybe the storage function of DSO's is nice, but other than
> that, i don't need much more and for home use i'd be happy with a 500MHz
> analog... but, the only scope i have is a 2 channel 50MHz one. I definitly
> could have a use for two more channels and a bit of more bandwidth.
> The rest is nice to have.
>
>   Attila Kinali
>
> --
> Why does it take years to find the answers to
> the questions one should have asked long ago?
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Don Latham]

I just can't help it. I like moving the mouse pointer over the slider
and clicking or moving or just typing in a value. My latest scope
(Bitscope)is from Australia, cost $250 inflated $ and all functions are
done via PC. In addition, there is a dll if I want to roll my own app,
and a suite of apps available on a website. The scope occupies as much
or as little screen area as i like, the body is a huge 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 x
1/2 inches. I/O (yep, a built-in signal source) for the scope and an
8-channel digital analyzer is via .1 in spaced terminals. Needs some
special connectors made for RF, but that is one of the only drawbacks.
I've been a knob twiddler for over 50 years now, and USB or 'net test
equipment is my current choice.
That rant delivered, I admit that I simply do not need test lab or
metrological acccuracy, for which one now has to go to R&S or maybe
Agilent, and pay the price for the additional decimal places.
Don

Hal Murray
>
> j...@quikus.com said:
>> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
>> 'user
>> friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
>> to a
>> 10,000+ character alphabet?
>
> How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't
> even
> exist on older scopes?
>
> Here is an example:  The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is
> buried
> deep in a menu.  That's better than cluttering up the box with another
> button.
>
>
> My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu
> buttons.
>
> One of the knobs is trigger level.  2 are horizontal scale and position.
>  2
> are vertical scale and position.  The 6th knob is for the current menu
> item.
>
> The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels.  If you want to
> adjust
> the other channel you have to poke a button first.  Sure, I'd prefer 2
> more
> knobs.  I can live with this.  It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more
> knobs if
> you did decide that was important.  Making the box an inch wider looks
> like
> the obvious way.
>
> Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is
> the
> AC/DC coupling switch on the input.  I won't miss the Focus knob. :)
>
> Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs.
>
> ---
>
> I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope.  One is chasing a
> glitch.
> The other is collecting data.
>
> When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the
> menus.
>  Yes, it's annoying.  Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't
> remember
> how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts.  Overall,
> it's
> not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware.  (I remember
> having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.)
>
> It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob
> actions.
>
> Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching
> the
> screen or poking Enter on my PC.
>
> --
>
> If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas.
>
> One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control.  It's good
> enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good.  (I haven't
> tried
> their software: no Windows boxes here.)
>
>
> The other is the probes.  Good probes are still expensive.  The Rigol
> unit
> came with old big/clunky probes.  Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch
> on
> their probe?  (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on
> small,
> slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.)
>
> For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz.  With
> a
> bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz.  Beyond
> that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help.  They
> also
> help with modern surface mount parts.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Marvin Gozum]

Alas, those are the UI issues I suggested in my post, fonts is one of them, 
there aren't any others in the 1000s series.  You can change the 'skins' in the 
utility menu.  Fonts are one advantage of Owon or Hantek, plus they offer 
larger LCDs.

The flicker is from the slow sampling rate at slower horizontal time bases.

One user actually timed it, here as a pdf:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/rigol-ds1052e-sample-rate-vs-timebase-setting/

FWIW, the human eye can detect < 15 fps [ movies are at 24 fps] so the flicker 
becomes very obvious below 1 ms/div and at higher, it depends on your eyes and 
if you have fluorescent lighting, which highlights update rate gaps.

Another interesting finding is they overclock their DACs, to further shave off 
on cost.

The good news, as shown in multiple tear downs, they use quality electronic 
components.  The only other quibbles are the quality of the plastic in the 
knobs vary [ some have spontaneously cracked] and a few units have installed 
rotary encoders dirtier than others; methinks this is the fault of their 
Chinese subcomponent suppliers.


Best Wishes,


Marv Gozum, Philadelphia Pa

[ sent via Outlook webApp]

From: John Ackermann N8UR [j...@febo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 2:27 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a "toss in" when I
bought one of their arbs.

It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen
at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds. I emailed Rigol US
about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not.
My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way)
doesn't show the flicker.

The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses
that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems
ubiquitous in Chinese documentation. Anyone know why they use that
versus something more pleasant on the eyes?

John



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[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Marvin Gozum]

Sorry john, that's more what I meant, by accuracy and precision I imply its 
faithful to the signal you choose to examine, free of artifacts induced by the 
scopes timebase or vertical amp, but with DSOs its limited by Nyquist sampling 
rules.

Thus, sampling rate is as important a feature as a scopes rated bandwidth.  For 
best results, its should be 10x the analog bandwidth.  Below it, one has to 
beware of artifacts, it worsens as the ratio signal bandwidth/ sampling rate < 
10.


At 14:32 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
--
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Message-ID: <56387.12.6.201.2.1334599156.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

> At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3
> years.
>
> In summary, in the <= 100 MHz level they are ...
...snip...
>... less.  The criteria for rating them are
> measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
> support.

Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is
"accurate". I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the
electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and
aliasing.

If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential
comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter.

Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output
and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was
designed to do waveform measurement.

I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?

The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced
it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do
160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No.

YMMV,

-John


Best Wishes,


Marv Gozum, Philadelphia Pa

[ sent via Outlook webApp]
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Jim Hickstein]

On 2012/04/16 10:41, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.


8164 and 8170 still unlocked at 1955Z.  Maybe they stay locked during the day, 
just barely? (8164 AGC 1.3V, a few days ago), but can't lock up from unlocked 
easily.  We'll see what the dark-path brings.


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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Dan Kemppainen]

I'd have a hard time doing a lot of what I do with an analog scope.  I 
have a lot of logic running at high frequency, and find myself 
triggering on single pulse events that happen infrequently. The 
advanced triggering options of digital scopes make seeing these events 
possible. Just the pulse width, or runt pulse triggering is worth the 
price when you need it. (If you need it, that is).


I've owned some low end test equipment over the years. I always end up 
selling it off to upgrade to an agilent or tek product. That being 
said, even the low end Tek's have problems. I have a 200Mhz digital 
unit here that likes to cross talk a lot between channels. If I have a 
100Mhz digital on one channel and analog on the other, A LOT of 
digital will make it onto the analog trace (disconnect the channe, or 
unhook the probe and the problem goes away). I'm guessing some of the 
cheap scopes may exhibit this also, but have no experience first hand. 
My higher end Tek scope is much better in this respect. But then 
again, it's several times the cost of this 200Mhz low end tek...


FYI: I have an Agilent signal generator that's getting close to 10 
years old now. Last year they replaced a bad encoder on the front 
panel and did a NIST calibration on the unit free of charge. I figured 
at that age, I'd have to do the work myself. The tech on the phone 
spent the time to figure out what I was fixing, and looked up the unit 
and notified me of the free repair option. They knew the encoder was 
bad, and offered the service when I called to order a replacement 
encoder. I'll keep this in mind when I buy more equipment this year.



Dan


On 4/16/2012 3:30 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is
"accurate". I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the
electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and
aliasing.

If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential
comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter.

Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output
and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was
designed to do waveform measurement.

I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?

The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced
it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do
160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No.

YMMV,

-John


Best Wishes,


Marv Gozum, Philadelphia Pa


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

Fired up the spectracom 8170 locked in 3-4 minutes on the east coast near
boston.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Jim Hickstein  wrote:

> On 2012/04/16 10:41, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>
>> Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.
>>
>
> 8164 and 8170 still unlocked at 1955Z.  Maybe they stay locked during the
> day, just barely? (8164 AGC 1.3V, a few days ago), but can't lock up from
> unlocked easily.  We'll see what the dark-path brings.
>
>
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[J. Forster]

OK. IMO, there is another, perhas a more important, issue  memory depth.

Most digital scopes I've seen, and some LAs too, just don't have enough
depth for my taste, so they undersample and guess.

Tek did make the RTD-710A high speed transient data digitizer that had 64
MB of 12 (?) bit RAM. That is beginning to be useful, IMO.

-John

==


> Sorry john, that's more what I meant, by accuracy and precision I imply
> its faithful to the signal you choose to examine, free of artifacts
> induced by the scopes timebase or vertical amp, but with DSOs its limited
> by Nyquist sampling rules.
>
> Thus, sampling rate is as important a feature as a scopes rated bandwidth.
>  For best results, its should be 10x the analog bandwidth.  Below it, one
> has to beware of artifacts, it worsens as the ratio signal bandwidth/
> sampling rate < 10.
>
>
> At 14:32 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
> --
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "J. Forster" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
> Message-ID: <56387.12.6.201.2.1334599156.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>> At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3
>> years.
>>
>> In summary, in the <= 100 MHz level they are ...
> ...snip...
>>... less.  The criteria for rating them are
>> measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech
>> support.
>
> Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is
> "accurate". I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the
> electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and
> aliasing.
>
> If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential
> comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter.
>
> Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output
> and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was
> designed to do waveform measurement.
>
> I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
> 'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab?
>
> The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced
> it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do
> 160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No.
>
> YMMV,
>
> -John
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
>
> Marv Gozum, Philadelphia Pa
>
> [ sent via Outlook webApp]
> ___
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>
>



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[time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[lstoskopf]

I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year.  OK for my needs.  Not 
mentioned here is that the difference between the 50 and 100 MHz scopes is 
software control of roll off on the input.  I haven't done it, but procedure 
was available on the WEB on how to spoof the software.

N0UU

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Hal Murray]

> I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
> 'scope is not "good enough" for what you really do in your lab? 

> Older 'scopes didn't NEED to re-allocate memory, or use "peak" modes to
> avoid sampling artifacts. 

I can think of  3 reasons why I like digital scopes:

  It holds the picture for a long time.  This is great for looking at 
slow/PPS signals and things that happen only occasionally (logic glitches, 
software bugs).

  You can see the signal before the trigger.

  You can get the data out to a PC.

Any one of those could be enough to convince me to switch to digital.  With 
all 3, it's a no-brainer.  YMMV.

I'm sure I'll get burned by an aliasing glitch one of these days.  In the 
meantime, I'll get lots of good pictures.

If you want a really good example of aliasing, try this one:
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Rigol/scope-2ms.png
That sine wave is10 MHz.  :)

Since this is time-nuts, you can back compute the frequency of the internal 
clock in the scope.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[GandalfG8]

In a message dated 16/04/2012 22:15:50 GMT Daylight Time,  
lstosk...@cox.net writes:

I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year.   OK for my needs. 
 Not mentioned here is that the difference between the 50  and 100 MHz 
scopes is software control of roll off on the input.  I haven't  done it, but 
procedure was available on the WEB on how to spoof the  software.
--

It's still there, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned  it earlier, it's 
on the eevblog forum, topic 553..

"Changing the  rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide"
 
That forum's been running for a couple of years now and I can  testify that 
the software "modification" works very well.
 
I've seen it suggested that all 1052s are just 1102s that  failed to meet 
the 100MHz spec so have been sold as the "lesser"  version and that 
"upgraded" units will be somehow inferior to a "proper"  1102, but that's just 
a load 
of rubbish and I've performed the measurements to  prove it.
This is a classic example of "software  defined" equipment in general where 
the same hardware can be sold at different  prices depending on what's 
enabled, or crippled, in the firmware.
 
Given the price of the 1052, especially following the  reductions sometime 
after I bought mine and even without the bonus  conversion, it's an absolute 
steal.
 
Cue "the seller isn't really my wife or unclehonest"  message:-)
 
The menu system can be a bit of a pain but it's intuitive  enough to manage 
without the manual, and of course one has  to be aware of the limitations, 
but I'm actually finding it far more user  friendly than my Tek CRT based 
DSO.
 
Perhaps one of the problems is that the Rigols really do  offer so much for 
so little, and in a relatively small box, that it's  sometimes difficult to 
take them as seriously as they deserve.
 
I still think of the Tek, and an older HP1740 that's tucked  away 
somewhere, as my "real" scopes but it's interesting  that the 1052/1102 is 
always now 
the first one I turn  to as my general purpose bench unit.
 
Interesting too to consider that it's had no problem  displaying the 1PPS 
pulse from several 5680A Rubidium units whilst half the list  was still 
querying whether or not such pulses even existed:-)
 
There was an earlier post mentioned the "spontaneous"  splitting of knobs 
and I have to agree this can be a  problem.
Having had three that split, without provocation or a by  your leave, I was 
eventually sent some replacements only to find it was  impossible to force 
them on to the shafts without pushing the attached PCB out  of the back of 
the scope and into never never land.
On that basis I decided it probably wasn't so much another  case of poor 
quality Chinese plastics as just another case of poor Chinese not  quite 
getting the size right!
 
So now I have some substitute knobs that do fit, don't quite  match but 
what the heck, and a scope that still works remarkably  well.
 
I can live with that:-)
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Scott McGrath]

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, "J. Forster"  wrote:

> I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be
> small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use
> to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
> 
> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
> 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
> to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
> 
> -John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> 
 Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
 scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
>>> make
 buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>>> 
>>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
>> 
>> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
>> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
>> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
>> sheets
>> more than the maker.
>> 
>> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
>> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what
>> was
>> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
>> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
>> continuity
>> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
>> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
>> while the
>> Fluke is very good.
>> 
>> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
>> supply.
>> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon
>> as I
>> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
>> Agilent too
>> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
>> quality is
>> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
>> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
>> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
>> precision
>> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
>> generator)
>> 
>> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for
>> work
>> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
>> supposed
>> you should enjoy doing it!)
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Andrea Baldoni
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Scott McGrath]

Chinese scopes and menus

In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize menu 
selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually increase the 
number of menus to cater to this 



Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, "J. Forster"  wrote:

> I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be
> small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use
> to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
> 
> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
> 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used
> to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
> 
> -John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> 
 Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
 scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
>>> make
 buying boat anchors a thing of the past.
>>> 
>>> What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
>> 
>> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments,
>> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for
>> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
>> sheets
>> more than the maker.
>> 
>> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
>> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what
>> was
>> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
>> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
>> continuity
>> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
>> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
>> while the
>> Fluke is very good.
>> 
>> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
>> supply.
>> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon
>> as I
>> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
>> Agilent too
>> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
>> quality is
>> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the
>> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
>> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
>> precision
>> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
>> generator)
>> 
>> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for
>> work
>> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
>> supposed
>> you should enjoy doing it!)
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Andrea Baldoni
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[gary]

That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it 
without opening the manual.




On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Chinese scopes and menus

In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize menu 
selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually increase the 
number of menus to cater to this



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Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[GandalfG8]

Hi John
 
Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just coincidence, 
 either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but 
that one  still has to be very aware of the limitations.
 
Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good  value:-)
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com  
writes:

Well, if  you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my
Tek  TDS1002.

This is a simulator for  LORAN-A

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[J. Forster]

Ah! That explains inscruitable VCR menus.

-John

===


> Chinese scopes and menus
>
> In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize
> menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually
> increase the number of menus to cater to this
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, "J. Forster"  wrote:
>
>> I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may
>> be
>> small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench
>> use
>> to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables.
>>
>> Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not
>> 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are
>> used
>> to a 10,000+ character alphabet?
>>
>> -John
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
>>>
> Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have "real"
> scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will
 make
> buying boat anchors a thing of the past.

 What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
>>>
>>> I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke
>>> instruments,
>>> because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments
>>> for
>>> myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec
>>> sheets
>>> more than the maker.
>>>
>>> To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog
>>> multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose
>>> what
>>> was
>>> then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity.
>>> I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire
>>> continuity
>>> beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC
>>> connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable
>>> while the
>>> Fluke is very good.
>>>
>>> Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power
>>> supply.
>>> I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as
>>> soon
>>> as I
>>> had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This
>>> Agilent too
>>> is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the
>>> quality is
>>> not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like
>>> the
>>> 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok.
>>> (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not
>>> precision
>>> items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek
>>> generator)
>>>
>>> To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable,
>>> for
>>> work
>>> as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's
>>> supposed
>>> you should enjoy doing it!)
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Andrea Baldoni
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[J. Forster]

IMO, a good UI should be entirely obvious. I learnt to use a Tek 503 in
about 1963. Everything after that has been obvious, until the
'puter'scopes.

The problem with nested menus is knowing where the dang thing you want is,
or worse, that some setting or other even exists.

Have you explored all the pull-down menus in your browser or Word, or,
worse, Excel or AutoCAD? I know I havn't. An Adventure game is far less
opaque, IMO, and the game is designed to decieve.

-John




> That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
> without opening the manual.
>
>
>
> On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>> Chinese scopes and menus
>>
>> In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to
>> memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs
>> actually increase the number of menus to cater to this
>>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[J. Forster]

Please don't interpret what I said to mean that no 'scope is better than
an asian one.

Without question, any halfway capable product is far better than nothing.
But, IMO, a high end (used) analog scope beats the newer mid range digital
scopes.

Furtheremore, if you really don't know what you're looking at, I far
prefer a scope that cannot add pathologies.

YMMV,

-John




> Hi John
>
> Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just
> coincidence,
>  either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but
> that one  still has to be very aware of the limitations.
>
> Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good  value:-)
>
> regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
> In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com
> writes:
>
> Well, if  you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my
> Tek  TDS1002.
>
> This is a simulator for  LORAN-A
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)

[Andrea Baldoni]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 05:51:13PM +, Marvin Gozum wrote:

> FWIW the 3000 series Agilents were rebadged Rigols.  The newer entry levels
> to mid-range scopes are now all designed and built by Agilent in their
> Malaysia plant.

This means two things: I now know why the overall quality is really lower
in respect to other Agilent stuff and, provide that Agilent didn't ask for
more RAM, improved firmware, or other changes, Rigol scopes have a "easy to
crack case" but ok...

I am now curious to try a real Agilent one.

Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Michael Blazer]

Does anyone remember the HP 1980B Digital O'scope?  This had to be the 
worst scope UI ever.  There was only one knob and buttons for everything 
else.


Mike

On 4/16/2012 7:04 PM, J. Forster wrote:

IMO, a good UI should be entirely obvious. I learnt to use a Tek 503 in
about 1963. Everything after that has been obvious, until the
'puter'scopes.

The problem with nested menus is knowing where the dang thing you want is,
or worse, that some setting or other even exists.

Have you explored all the pull-down menus in your browser or Word, or,
worse, Excel or AutoCAD? I know I havn't. An Adventure game is far less
opaque, IMO, and the game is designed to decieve.

-John





That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
without opening the manual.



On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Chinese scopes and menus

In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to
memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs
actually increase the number of menus to cater to this


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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Scott McGrath]

Ah but a UI is as much a cultural thing as technical we all learned systems 
which valued a interface which visually displayed all parameters both set and 
ranges on individual controls.  

 In Asia where rote memorization and Obedience is valued uses overloaded 
controls with deep menus.  If you are a photographer as I am as well you will 
find modern high end cameras with the same design on their menu systems

Ie ISO values will be buried in a shooting menu 2 levels down instead of being 
assigned to a dial or you will be expected to trust the cameras auto iso 
feature ie obiedience to authority

Scott

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 8:04 PM, "J. Forster"  wrote:

> IMO, a good UI should be entirely obvious. I learnt to use a Tek 503 in
> about 1963. Everything after that has been obvious, until the
> 'puter'scopes.
> 
> The problem with nested menus is knowing where the dang thing you want is,
> or worse, that some setting or other even exists.
> 
> Have you explored all the pull-down menus in your browser or Word, or,
> worse, Excel or AutoCAD? I know I havn't. An Adventure game is far less
> opaque, IMO, and the game is designed to decieve.
> 
> -John
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
>> without opening the manual.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>> Chinese scopes and menus
>>> 
>>> In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to
>>> memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs
>>> actually increase the number of menus to cater to this
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "gary" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes


That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
without opening the manual.


So quick, without looking at the screen, select channel 2 ground reference. 
I can do that anytime with the good ol' Tek 465. Guess I will never "like or 
prefer" menu driven devices over switch driven functions.


But the Rigol 50 (100) MHz scope for <$400 is a good deal.

Regards,
Tom 



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Scott McGrath]

Yep and sounded like bbs on a tin roof with all the relays in the thing!

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Michael Blazer  wrote:

> Does anyone remember the HP 1980B Digital O'scope?  This had to be the worst 
> scope UI ever.  There was only one knob and buttons for everything else.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 4/16/2012 7:04 PM, J. Forster wrote:
>> IMO, a good UI should be entirely obvious. I learnt to use a Tek 503 in
>> about 1963. Everything after that has been obvious, until the
>> 'puter'scopes.
>> 
>> The problem with nested menus is knowing where the dang thing you want is,
>> or worse, that some setting or other even exists.
>> 
>> Have you explored all the pull-down menus in your browser or Word, or,
>> worse, Excel or AutoCAD? I know I havn't. An Adventure game is far less
>> opaque, IMO, and the game is designed to decieve.
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
>>> without opening the manual.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
 Chinese scopes and menus
 
 In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to
 memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs
 actually increase the number of menus to cater to this
 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Fail on HP5065A PSU repair

[J. L. Trantham]

Magnus,

With the help of others, I have installed a Lamp Assembly in my 'parts'
5065A with the donation of parts from my 'mule' 5065A.  I found several
other problems, repaired them and, now, have a 'new 5065A, and, a 'spare'
A15 board.  

It is 'high mileage', discolored, but it works, at least in my 'new' 5065A.
It's yours for what ever you think it is worth plus postage.

My 'new' 5065A is up and operational but with a few more adjustments to
make.

Where, in the world, are you?

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 10:46 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fail on HP5065A PSU repair

Hi Joe,

On 04/02/2012 07:33 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Magnus,
>
> If you are referring to the A15 board, I may have a spare.
>
> I have been collecting parts for a couple of years and I *think* have
> everything except the A12A1 Spectral Lamp Oscillator Assembly.  I have
found
> some dead parts on some boards that I have replaced and, as best I can
tell
> from measurements on the A12 RVFR Assembly, everything is OK but I can't
go
> forward until I get the Rb lamp assembly itself.
>
> If I can find that, I can bring this to a conclusion (happy, I hope).
Once
> done, there will be some 'leftovers', one of which will be an A15 board.

Yes, it's the A15 board. I've run it and trimmed it up with another A15 
board, so I know the rest of the unit is working. If you can find it I 
would be greatfull.

Cheers,
Magnus

>
> Joe
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 6:45 PM
> To: Time-Nuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] Fail on HP5065A PSU repair
>
> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> I'm sure you all have done this at least once. Repaired something up,
> feeling happy about it, slap it in and then if fails on you again.
>
> The transformer in the DC-DC converter failed again. Popped the lid even.
>
> *sigh* I think I will have to rebuild that from scratch.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[J. Forster]

You may be onto something w/ the cultural thing.

In the US, we buy a toy and just expect it to work right out of the package.

In asia, they might actually read the instructions before unpacking the
hardware.

Have you ever read the user's manual for your SW? I certainly have not,
beyond looking up 'how to '

-John




> Ah but a UI is as much a cultural thing as technical we all learned
> systems which valued a interface which visually displayed all parameters
> both set and ranges on individual controls.
>
>  In Asia where rote memorization and Obedience is valued uses overloaded
> controls with deep menus.  If you are a photographer as I am as well you
> will find modern high end cameras with the same design on their menu
> systems
>
> Ie ISO values will be buried in a shooting menu 2 levels down instead of
> being assigned to a dial or you will be expected to trust the cameras auto
> iso feature ie obiedience to authority
>
> Scott
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 16, 2012, at 8:04 PM, "J. Forster"  wrote:
>
>> IMO, a good UI should be entirely obvious. I learnt to use a Tek 503 in
>> about 1963. Everything after that has been obvious, until the
>> 'puter'scopes.
>>
>> The problem with nested menus is knowing where the dang thing you want
>> is,
>> or worse, that some setting or other even exists.
>>
>> Have you explored all the pull-down menus in your browser or Word, or,
>> worse, Excel or AutoCAD? I know I havn't. An Adventure game is far less
>> opaque, IMO, and the game is designed to decieve.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>> That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
>>> without opening the manual.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/16/2012 4:33 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
 Chinese scopes and menus

 In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to
 memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian
 designs
 actually increase the number of menus to cater to this

>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[J. Forster]

To bring this full circle, a friend bought a very clean, working 465 for
$50 at MIT.

-John



>
> - Original Message -
> From: "gary" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes
>
>
> That simply is not the case with the Rigol scope. I was able to use it
> without opening the manual.
>
>
> So quick, without looking at the screen, select channel 2 ground
> reference.
> I can do that anytime with the good ol' Tek 465. Guess I will never "like
> or
> prefer" menu driven devices over switch driven functions.
>
> But the Rigol 50 (100) MHz scope for <$400 is a good deal.
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[lists]

High speed without storage is really junk. You just can't do much with them. 

I recall a PO to fix an old 7904 in the 1980 running about $1500. Serious money 
back then. I bet they are unrepairable today. 

-Original Message-
From: "J. Forster" 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:11:57 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

Please don't interpret what I said to mean that no 'scope is better than
an asian one.

Without question, any halfway capable product is far better than nothing.
But, IMO, a high end (used) analog scope beats the newer mid range digital
scopes.

Furtheremore, if you really don't know what you're looking at, I far
prefer a scope that cannot add pathologies.

YMMV,

-John




> Hi John
>
> Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just
> coincidence,
>  either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but
> that one  still has to be very aware of the limitations.
>
> Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good  value:-)
>
> regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
> In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com
> writes:
>
> Well, if  you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my
> Tek  TDS1002.
>
> This is a simulator for  LORAN-A
>
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>



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Steve Byan]

On Apr 16, 2012, at 10:23 PM, J. Forster wrote:

> To bring this full circle, a friend bought a very clean, working 465 for
> $50 at MIT.

I passed on a clean 454 for $35; I was sorely tempted, but other items had 
priority in my budget.

Didn't see any 7000-series scopes, and not too much in the way of counters. A 
bunch of Racal Dana something-or-others from one of the test equipment dealers, 
but that was about it, other than a non-working HP 5223L.

Best regards,
-Steve

-- 
Steve Byan 
Littleton, MA 01460




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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[Hal Murray]

> To bring this full circle, a friend bought a very clean, working 465 for $50
> at MIT. 

Did that include probes?  :)

Good probes are probably worth more than that even without the scope.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes

[Andrew Rodland]

  writes:

> 
> I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year.  OK for my needs.
> Not mentioned here is that the difference between the 50 and 100 MHz scopes
> is software control of roll off on  the input.  I haven't done it,
> but procedure was available on the WEB on how to spoof the software.
> 
> N0UU

On the other hand, the prices have dropped since that procedure came out,
with the 100MHz model going for what the 50MHz used to cost, and the 50MHz
selling for about 80% of the price of the 100MHz. Those who want to avoid
the hassle might prefer to just buy the DS1102E directly. It's really
pretty decent, for what it is, and the interface is not nearly as bad as it
could be.

Andrew


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[time-nuts] OCXO VECTRON OCILLATOR giveaway with FE-5680A purchase on EBAY, DATASHEET‏

[Ken Kubick]

Hi,  time-nuts guys nichgeek on ebay also sent me the datasheet OCXO VECTRON 
OCILLATOR giveaway with FE-5680A purchase on EBAY.  Anyone interested email me.
 
kenkub...@hotmail.com
 
Ken Kubick,  AES
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes

[SAIDJACK]

Hi guys,
 
I am very partial to the HP Denali 54720D scope which is available on Ebay  
in varius forms for around $1500.
 
This $50K+ when-new scope is very easy to use, has many low cost plug ins,  
8GS/s with up to 2GHz Bandwidth plug ins available, and the amazing 54701A 
FET  probe. Support and spare parts supply are excellent. It's almost 
instantly  on and ready, something I really don't like about the small portable 
scopes as  they seem to take forever to boot up.
 
The plug in I find most useful is the 54721A, with 1.1GHz bandwith, that  
gives two channels plus triggers.
 
Don't look at the 54720A version, it is about the same price but has less  
performance (BW, memory etc).
 
It's a bit more than a Rigol, but for around $2200 you can get the  
mainframe, two 21A plug ins, three FET probes, and as  a side-feature the use 
as a 
boat anchor..
 
The only time I needed to use the manual was when using more obscure  
features such as histogram and FFT features, and then only to get all the  
details of what's possible. Otherwise it's so much easier to use than the small 
 
handheld Tektronix and Lecroy Waveace scopes.
 
One cool feature is to use the 54701A probe as a FET input probe  for our 
RF spectrum analyzer, using the scope as a probe power supply.  Works 
amazingly well, I've used it up to way past 2GHz.Gives the analyzer  
0.6pF/100KOhms 
input impedance. The probe is almost indestrucable.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 4/16/2012 19:54:42 Pacific Daylight Time,  
hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes:


>  To bring this full circle, a friend bought a very clean, working 465 for 
 $50
> at MIT. 

Did that include probes?  :)

Good  probes are probably worth more than that even without the scope.


--  
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate  spam.




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