Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
The cable is a straight DTE-DCE one. BR is 9600 (8O1). The yellow LED won't go off until it's communicating with the base station through the rear 110-pin connector. Is it connected to an on board COM or through an USB adapter? On COM1 LH 3.10 starts straight without any command line switches or other fiddlings (just a warning message about no COM1 data seen, which disappears quickly). On 7/5/2013 10:55 PM, Jim Sanford wrote: All: I have my new Nortel unit powered up. I have been unsuccessful at getting it to communicate with Lady Heather. I have tried both 19K2, 7, O 1 and 9K6, 8, N, 1 on the serial port to no avail. I tried the command line switch to wake up Nortel units wit both sets of serial parameters, to no avail. The instance of Lady Heather which goes out to KE5FX site works, so I presume I have a correct installation of Lady Heather. The Nortel appears to go through normal power up display on power up. Then it lights the yellow no communication LED. Once I hooked up an antenna, within a few minutes, the green LOCK LED came on. It appears that the Nortel is working. Is there something I'm missing about making these two play nicely together?? Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3325a 3325-18 service note needed
Check if there is a backup battery: if the setup is retained in RAM it needs a small backup battery. Others have EEPROM so they don't need the battery but the EEPROM itself can be faulty. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:34 AM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: My 3325A is having intermittent resets back to the power on default values. I ran across a reference to service note 3325-18 that relates to it. (my SN is in the range the note specifies.) Does anyone have a copy of the service note or know where I can access it? Thanks, Corby Dawson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Electrolytic capacitors: check them on the PSU, usually they are the first to look for. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au wrote: Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
sounds quite typical for a dried out electrolytic cap. Look for the unregulated -10V that goes into the regulator circuit. Most likely C3 on the power supply motherboard is dead. Adrian Mark C. Stephens schrieb: Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
As per my reply to the same question on the HP group, you've identified the problem so just go for a reasonably close-ish equivalent and replace it! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 12:18:44 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
On 7/6/2013 04:06, Chris Albertson wrote: But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. This is a valid point. My radio will accept TTL and RS232 level signals on the same port. (I should say 0 and 5 volts as the logic levels up to -15/+15) However the polarity of them has to be proper. Most people run a TTL level RS232 signal (e.g. from a PIC) through a MAX232 and think their done. In fact, the MAX232 inverts the polarity. The TTL signal polarity must be changed for it all to work. Regards, Brian - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3204/5969 - Release Date: 07/06/13 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
Hi Nigel, The only screw type electro can find is 29000uf@10V. it's the same dimensions. Should I risk the strain on the rectifiers (another 10Kuf is rather a lot)? Without this timer I am dead in the water so I need to do the right thing here... That's why I posted on the Agilent group too, I need to be sure that I do the right thing! By the way, the failed electro measures 39uf :) I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 9:37 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... As per my reply to the same question on the HP group, you've identified the problem so just go for a reasonably close-ish equivalent and replace it! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 12:18:44 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Correct, C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is measuring 39uf :) I have a 29000@10V, same dimensions, do you think the rectifiers can hack that big fella? 1uf is quite a bit more. Out of interest, this cap was replaced before, it is not a blue Sprague or Mallory but a grey Phillips Cap. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 9:19 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k sounds quite typical for a dried out electrolytic cap. Look for the unregulated -10V that goes into the regulator circuit. Most likely C3 on the power supply motherboard is dead. Adrian Mark C. Stephens schrieb: Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3325a 3325-18 service note needed
Corby, Have you asked Agilent? Or asked on the Agilent Forum? I've had some luck there in the past finding obscure documents. Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of cdel...@juno.com Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 9:34 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3325a 3325-18 service note needed My 3325A is having intermittent resets back to the power on default values. I ran across a reference to service note 3325-18 that relates to it. (my SN is in the range the note specifies.) Does anyone have a copy of the service note or know where I can access it? Thanks, Corby Dawson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
Mark, I wouldn't replace a 20V cap with an only 10V rated one, especially when the nominal working voltage is alrady 10V. That would be a very bad idea. You can always use caps with higher voltage ratings as replacements which is good for reliability, but don't do the other way. The exotic values HP was using (17.000 uF) are probably near impossible to find, except old stock (not so great with electrolytics) or you go to a manufacturer and get them custom made. The closest commonly available standard value is 22.000 uF, voltage rating at least 20V (25...35V would be great). 15.000 uF would work as well if available. For higher reliability you may go for a 105°C model. Don't care too much about the mounting style. For repeated outdoor use and transport you can fix the cap with hot glue and / or binding straps. Otherwise I hope your lab isn't moving and shaking enough for the cap to loosen... ;) Adrian Mark C. Stephens schrieb: Hi Nigel, The only screw type electro can find is 29000uf@10V. it's the same dimensions. Should I risk the strain on the rectifiers (another 10Kuf is rather a lot)? Without this timer I am dead in the water so I need to do the right thing here... That's why I posted on the Agilent group too, I need to be sure that I do the right thing! By the way, the failed electro measures 39uf :) I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 9:37 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... As per my reply to the same question on the HP group, you've identified the problem so just go for a reasonably close-ish equivalent and replace it! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 12:18:44 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Mark C. Stephens wrote: Correct, C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is measuring 39uf :) I have a 29000@10V, same dimensions, do you think the rectifiers can hack that big fella? Without a blush! -Chuck Harris 1uf is quite a bit more. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Mark C. Stephens wrote: Correct, C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is measuring 39uf :) I have a 29000@10V, same dimensions, do you think the rectifiers can hack that big fella? Without a blush! Except for the 10V part. (Which I missed on the first post) You have to use a capacitor that is at least 2x the operating voltage, and is also greater than any peak voltages that could occur in the boundary cases, such as the power line being at the scope's rated maximum power line voltage. -Chuck Harris 1uf is quite a bit more. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
Yeah, I was looking at the local suppliers and comparing items. They all seem to stop at 10,000uf for the normal places. I wonder what CR4 is, It's the -5.2 bridge before C3. I'd better check it too, must be a reason for the second time that caps failed. I suppose I could replace CR4 with a higher rated bridge and replace C3 with the 29,000uf Then I'll have prey to the transformer gods for the 8VAC that supplies CR4 doesn't go open circuit under the strain :) HP had some odd values for things on occasion, but look at what they achieved for 1970-1990... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 10:55 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... Mark, I wouldn't replace a 20V cap with an only 10V rated one, especially when the nominal working voltage is alrady 10V. That would be a very bad idea. You can always use caps with higher voltage ratings as replacements which is good for reliability, but don't do the other way. The exotic values HP was using (17.000 uF) are probably near impossible to find, except old stock (not so great with electrolytics) or you go to a manufacturer and get them custom made. The closest commonly available standard value is 22.000 uF, voltage rating at least 20V (25...35V would be great). 15.000 uF would work as well if available. For higher reliability you may go for a 105°C model. Don't care too much about the mounting style. For repeated outdoor use and transport you can fix the cap with hot glue and / or binding straps. Otherwise I hope your lab isn't moving and shaking enough for the cap to loosen... ;) Adrian Mark C. Stephens schrieb: Hi Nigel, The only screw type electro can find is 29000uf@10V. it's the same dimensions. Should I risk the strain on the rectifiers (another 10Kuf is rather a lot)? Without this timer I am dead in the water so I need to do the right thing here... That's why I posted on the Agilent group too, I need to be sure that I do the right thing! By the way, the failed electro measures 39uf :) I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 9:37 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... As per my reply to the same question on the HP group, you've identified the problem so just go for a reasonably close-ish equivalent and replace it! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 12:18:44 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Most of the Caps I have of that size are around ~1/2 the capacitance but twice the voltage. I'll go check the dumpster (...err garage) for some old gear that's due to be scrapped. I am going hate myself if I have to part mule a probably working 8568A/B for a some sort of PSU cap. Yeah, I see your point about the cap voltage, that hadn't occurred in my electrolytic candidates to me for some reason! I'll take that one on-board definitely :) -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 11:05 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Mark C. Stephens wrote: Correct, C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is measuring 39uf :) I have a 29000@10V, same dimensions, do you think the rectifiers can hack that big fella? Without a blush! Except for the 10V part. (Which I missed on the first post) You have to use a capacitor that is at least 2x the operating voltage, and is also greater than any peak voltages that could occur in the boundary cases, such as the power line being at the scope's rated maximum power line voltage. -Chuck Harris 1uf is quite a bit more. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
Running load might not be quite as bad as you'd expect, switching them all on at exactly the same time would probably cause a nice fat pulse but perhaps that's a bit extreme:-), allowing an adequate margin though is always a good idea. If you could tap into the supply and get an idea of running current that would be a good start, after that it's likely to come down to an appropriate autotransformer, fixed or variable, one of the older style saturable reactance type constant voltage transformers, or perhaps an online UPS, sinusoidal to be preferred, that will handle the input voltage and regulate the output. The latter would probably be the best, or easiest anyway, option these day, and assuming it meets your voltage and current needs then the off mains hold up time, unless you do need that too, probably wouldn't be too much of an issue so that could help keep the cost down. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 13:26:06 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ...
You wouldn't even need a UPS, check Google for mains voltage conditioners. APC's kit, for example, should be available worldwide and they make a range that, here in the UK anyway, starts for under 50 GBP. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 06/07/2013 13:26:06 GMT Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Hi Charles, This triggered some thoughts. :) On 07/06/2013 06:28 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: So, for proper operation in +/- TI mode, use external arming to remove the ambiguity when the trigger events cross from + to - and back, and make sure you have adjusted the triggering properly for a robust response to the input signals. I've found it annoying that some counters miss the +/- TI mode (where either A or B triggers start). Using only TI mode (where A triggers start) one ends up with a situation where I measure either every PPS (PPE on A is early compared to B) or every other PPS (PPS on A is late compared to B). If they alter position, you end up altering the report speed. It can be even tricker, since if the PPS on A is very much later than B, then it can trigger the measurement directly anyway. This is all due to the logic and timing of the triggering logic. The details of counters differs in subtle details. After the stop trigger, there is a dead-time at which the counter does not arm another measurement. A direct trigger sequence is START, STOP, DONE. An arm trigger sequence is ARM, START, STOP, DONE. (Assuming repetive measurment mode, single measurments won't arm another triggering round the way DONE does it here.) For TI mode, channel A triggers START and channel B triggers STOP. For +/- TI mode, either channel A and B triggers first, and whoever is later triggers later. The TI mode can produce unfortunate results when the B channel PPS occurs just before the A channel PPS, such that the measurement is not gathered by the processing and the hardware triggered for another measurmenet before the A channel PPS occurs, so it skip to the next PPS pulse instead. That is, the dead time caused by the CPU causes a time after the B channel PPS where the A channel PPS trigger will be missed. If the A channel PPS is about the dead-time after B channel PPS, and altering to be somewhat before and after the critical time (which is not necessarily static) then the A channel PPS will be swallowed or not. That is, the time between the measurements will alter. The same thing occurs if the A and B channels PPS occurs at about the same time, so sometimes the A is in the lead and a small delay will be measured every second and sometimes B will be in lead and a large delay will measured every other second. That makes it very dodgy measurements for a time-nut. The only thing that really works is to set the PPSes up on channel A and B such that B always occurs after A. ARMing does not really help to resolve the issue. Either you can induce delays in the equipment, or use the falling edge of either, if the PWM factor allows for sufficient delay. For long term measurements this can still fail, as large deviations will phase-wrap and you end up in the dead-band regardless. For TI mode (A-B), using a separate ARM thus does not help, as you can just as well use the A event as arming, because you will have to resolve tha A/B relationship regardless. For +/- TI mode, using a separate ARM does not help either, since either of the channels suffice as trigger, and the relative timing is resolve dynamically by the counter. For most time, the dead-time will be hidden, but for longer runs where A/B timing diverge, it can create the same issues as the remaining time from the STOP to the START (as the sequence now has been assigned and maintained) can become to short to cover up the dead-time. ARMing does help the TI measurement if you run the ARM at a lower rate. Running at 1/2 rate resolves some of the issues, but not if the ARM signal occurs close to the A/B event and B is early, but 1/3 rate or 1/4 rate will resolve it properly. ARMing does help the +/- TI measurement if you run the ARM at a lower rate. Running at 1/2 rate is needed for long term measurements to always make room for the dead-time regardless of the diversions between the channels. ARMing with a PPS is a great tool when measure clock rates. In comparison, I'm sloppy as hell in the typical setup, and the only reason for my sloppiness is that I don't sit down and think it through, but the actual logic isn't that hard if you have the components clear for you. Counters like HP5335A, HP53131A and HP53132A only has TI mode to the best of my understanding, and thus needs extra care in setup for reliable result. Counters like HP5370a/B has both +TI mode and +/- TI mode. The software receiving the time-stamps, can detect the altering times and duplicate measurements to achieve a time-series which at least has linear time, even if the values are not always unique. This form of cover up works if the software is aware of elapsed time and can figure out when samples has gone missing due to triggering errors. Looking at raw values also helps. It's part of un-wrapping the phase. I hope this triggers a little deeper debate about how triggering/arming should be done to get quality results.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 3325a 3325-18 service note needed
On 7/5/2013 7:34 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: My 3325A is having intermittent resets back to the power on default values. I ran across a reference to service note 3325-18 that relates to it. (my SN is in the range the note specifies.) Does anyone have a copy of the service note or know where I can access it? Corby, I don't have the service note, but I do have a late paper version of the manual which has, in the back dating section, notes of all the engineering changes by serial prefix. If you'd care to share your serial prefix, I could look and see if there is anything that looks relevant, and scan it. Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 29 On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:55:42 -0400, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 6 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:27:33 +0200 From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops Message-ID: 51d74855.9090...@rubidium.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/05/2013 10:39 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 28 Message: 2 Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 09:18:39 -0700 From: Jim Luxjim...@earthlink.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops Message-ID:51d6f1df.9090...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/5/13 8:44 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: Wouldn't a Cs or Rb clock in orbit be slow due to relativistic effects? I'm pretty sure there is a relativistic correction to the GPS clocks. Bob - AE6RV I believe that the original WAAS repurposed transponders intended for other L-band satellite signals (e.g. Sirius/XM/LightSquared). As noted earlier in the discussion, the new satellites might have a specialized payload, which could have a purpose specific coherent transponder, rather than a linear translator. If it is purpose specific and single channel, then making it immune to the local oscillator is straightforward. I worked on a proposal for the original WAAS system. The WAAS signal is not a timing signal in the sense that GPS signals from space are timing signals. WAAS instead sends out a stream of correction data that allows one to greatly improve the accuracy and reliability of GPS signals. So, unless things have changed greatly, the geostationary satellite that broadcasts the WAAS signal need not have an atomic clock. This is naturally still true, but we are into the level of there's a signal here, what can we use it for?. Doing a much simplified receiver could serve some well enough, without going the full monty. It's like taking the color-carrier of analog TV broadcasts. OK. Given that the birds WAAS uses were built for communications purposes, not timing purposes, I'g guess that their frequency reference is a very good quartz unit. I suppose Rubidium is possible, but Cesium is very unlikely. Bent-pipe channels do a frequency change to eliminate singing. I imagine the datasheet for the rentable comm channels will give the frequency error and stability of the downlink signal. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Not only: consider that most time interval counters have a minimum measurable interval (Racal 2351 is 2ns) and slowly crossing PPSes can be a problem to measure when they are about to cross. In my opinion it is always better to displace the PPSes, easily done when using GPSDOs and by using stable delay lines in other cases. The Racal 2351 has +/-TI measurement function. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Hi Charles, This triggered some thoughts. :) On 07/06/2013 06:28 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: So, for proper operation in +/- TI mode, use external arming to remove the ambiguity when the trigger events cross from + to - and back, and make sure you have adjusted the triggering properly for a robust response to the input signals. I've found it annoying that some counters miss the +/- TI mode (where either A or B triggers start). Using only TI mode (where A triggers start) one ends up with a situation where I measure either every PPS (PPE on A is early compared to B) or every other PPS (PPS on A is late compared to B). If they alter position, you end up altering the report speed. It can be even tricker, since if the PPS on A is very much later than B, then it can trigger the measurement directly anyway. This is all due to the logic and timing of the triggering logic. The details of counters differs in subtle details. After the stop trigger, there is a dead-time at which the counter does not arm another measurement. A direct trigger sequence is START, STOP, DONE. An arm trigger sequence is ARM, START, STOP, DONE. (Assuming repetive measurment mode, single measurments won't arm another triggering round the way DONE does it here.) For TI mode, channel A triggers START and channel B triggers STOP. For +/- TI mode, either channel A and B triggers first, and whoever is later triggers later. The TI mode can produce unfortunate results when the B channel PPS occurs just before the A channel PPS, such that the measurement is not gathered by the processing and the hardware triggered for another measurmenet before the A channel PPS occurs, so it skip to the next PPS pulse instead. That is, the dead time caused by the CPU causes a time after the B channel PPS where the A channel PPS trigger will be missed. If the A channel PPS is about the dead-time after B channel PPS, and altering to be somewhat before and after the critical time (which is not necessarily static) then the A channel PPS will be swallowed or not. That is, the time between the measurements will alter. The same thing occurs if the A and B channels PPS occurs at about the same time, so sometimes the A is in the lead and a small delay will be measured every second and sometimes B will be in lead and a large delay will measured every other second. That makes it very dodgy measurements for a time-nut. The only thing that really works is to set the PPSes up on channel A and B such that B always occurs after A. ARMing does not really help to resolve the issue. Either you can induce delays in the equipment, or use the falling edge of either, if the PWM factor allows for sufficient delay. For long term measurements this can still fail, as large deviations will phase-wrap and you end up in the dead-band regardless. For TI mode (A-B), using a separate ARM thus does not help, as you can just as well use the A event as arming, because you will have to resolve tha A/B relationship regardless. For +/- TI mode, using a separate ARM does not help either, since either of the channels suffice as trigger, and the relative timing is resolve dynamically by the counter. For most time, the dead-time will be hidden, but for longer runs where A/B timing diverge, it can create the same issues as the remaining time from the STOP to the START (as the sequence now has been assigned and maintained) can become to short to cover up the dead-time. ARMing does help the TI measurement if you run the ARM at a lower rate. Running at 1/2 rate resolves some of the issues, but not if the ARM signal occurs close to the A/B event and B is early, but 1/3 rate or 1/4 rate will resolve it properly. ARMing does help the +/- TI measurement if you run the ARM at a lower rate. Running at 1/2 rate is needed for long term measurements to always make room for the dead-time regardless of the diversions between the channels. ARMing with a PPS is a great tool when measure clock rates. In comparison, I'm sloppy as hell in the typical setup, and the only reason for my sloppiness is that I don't sit down and think it through, but the actual logic isn't that hard if you have the components clear for you. Counters like HP5335A, HP53131A and HP53132A only has TI mode to the best of my understanding, and thus needs extra care in setup for reliable result. Counters like HP5370a/B has both +TI mode and +/- TI mode. The software receiving the time-stamps, can detect the altering
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/WAAS_Signal_Structure Doppler Shift: The Doppler shift, as perceived by a stationary user, on the signal broadcast by WAAS GEOs is less than 40 meters per second (?210 Hz at L1) in the worst case (at the end of life of the GEOs). Carrier Frequency Stability: The short term stability of the carrier frequency (square root of the Allan Variance) at the input of the user´s receiver antenna will be better than 5x10-11 over 1 to 10 seconds, excluding the effects of the ionosphere and Doppler. Polarization: The broadcast signal is right-handed circularly polarized. The ellipticity will be no worse than 2 dB for the angular range of ±9.1o from boresight. Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). Correlation Loss: Correlation loss is defined as the ratio of output powers from a perfect correlator for two cases: 1) the actual receiver WAAS signal correlated against a perfect unfiltered PN reference, or 2) a perfect unfiltered PN signal normalized to the same total power as the WAAS signal in case 1. The correlation loss resulting from modulation imperfections and filtering inside the WAAS satellite payload is less than 1 dB. John WA4WDL -- From: Joseph Gwinn joegw...@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 10:50 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 29 On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:55:42 -0400, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 6 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 00:27:33 +0200 From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops Message-ID: 51d74855.9090...@rubidium.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/05/2013 10:39 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 28 Message: 2 Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 09:18:39 -0700 From: Jim Luxjim...@earthlink.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops Message-ID:51d6f1df.9090...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/5/13 8:44 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: Wouldn't a Cs or Rb clock in orbit be slow due to relativistic effects? I'm pretty sure there is a relativistic correction to the GPS clocks. Bob - AE6RV I believe that the original WAAS repurposed transponders intended for other L-band satellite signals (e.g. Sirius/XM/LightSquared). As noted earlier in the discussion, the new satellites might have a specialized payload, which could have a purpose specific coherent transponder, rather than a linear translator. If it is purpose specific and single channel, then making it immune to the local oscillator is straightforward. I worked on a proposal for the original WAAS system. The WAAS signal is not a timing signal in the sense that GPS signals from space are timing signals. WAAS instead sends out a stream of correction data that allows one to greatly improve the accuracy and reliability of GPS signals. So, unless things have changed greatly, the geostationary satellite that broadcasts the WAAS signal need not have an atomic clock. This is naturally still true, but we are into the level of there's a signal here, what can we use it for?. Doing a much simplified receiver could serve some well enough, without going the full monty. It's like taking the color-carrier of analog TV broadcasts. OK. Given that the birds WAAS uses were built for communications purposes, not timing purposes, I'g guess that their frequency reference is a very good quartz unit. I suppose Rubidium is possible, but Cesium is very unlikely. Bent-pipe channels do a frequency change to eliminate singing. I imagine the datasheet for the rentable comm channels will give the frequency error and stability of the downlink signal. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (netduino based project)
Hi, For those of you with Trimble Thunderbolts, I thought that you might want to know about a open source LCD/monitor/controller project that is now available. James, M1DST designed this project to run on the Netduino platform. The features are similar to VK4GHZ's commander/monitor with one notable exception, James added an NTP time server. I believe that he has a very limited number of circuit boards (shield kits) available if any one is interested. Source code and schematic can be found in the links below: http://www.m1dst.co.uk/category/projects/trimble-thunderbolt-monitor/ https://github.com/m1dst/Trimble-Thunderbolt-Monitor 73, Steve N0XC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Hi Azelio, On 07/06/2013 05:05 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: Not only: consider that most time interval counters have a minimum measurable interval (Racal 2351 is 2ns) and slowly crossing PPSes can be a problem to measure when they are about to cross. In my opinion it is always better to displace the PPSes, easily done when using GPSDOs and by using stable delay lines in other cases. The Racal 2351 has +/-TI measurement function. Any such offsets can be troublesome with free-wheeling oscillators where you measure the PPS signal over a long time. If you can, it is better to use a higher rate, trigger on PPS (either as START or STOP) or ARM on PPS and then have start and stop operate on the higher frequencies. Naturally, the PPS can be replaced with an equalent signal at a different rate. The problems discusses is really with rate, so what happens at 1 Hz occuurs at 10 Hz or 100 mHz just as well. There is counters able to handle these problems much neater. The HP5371A/HP5372A/HP5373A actually time-stamps the events. What few realize is that you can use the fast port for long or even continuous measurements. Some of the Pendulum counters, CNT-80/81 and CNT-90/90XL/91, I believe can do continuous measurements properly, but I haven't tried it properly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
On 7/6/13 8:10 AM, jmfranke wrote: http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/WAAS_Signal_Structure Doppler Shift: The Doppler shift, as perceived by a stationary user, on the signal broadcast by WAAS GEOs is less than 40 meters per second (?210 Hz at L1) in the worst case (at the end of life of the GEOs). That is more a requirement on the spacecraft. Precompensation from the ground won't work... if the satellite is driving West, then users to the west see the frequency go up, and users to the east see it go down. Carrier Frequency Stability: The short term stability of the carrier frequency (square root of the Allan Variance) at the input of the user´s receiver antenna will be better than 5x10-11 over 1 to 10 seconds, excluding the effects of the ionosphere and Doppler. that sounds like comparable to a decent OCXO (10811A, etc.) Polarization: The broadcast signal is right-handed circularly polarized. The ellipticity will be no worse than 2 dB for the angular range of ±9.1o from boresight. Antenna spec.. Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
On 7/6/13 7:50 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 29 On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:55:42 -0400, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: OK. Given that the birds WAAS uses were built for communications purposes, not timing purposes, I'g guess that their frequency reference is a very good quartz unit. I suppose Rubidium is possible, but Cesium is very unlikely. Except that apparently, the WAAS/EGNOS repeater payload is purpose designed, so it isn't necessarily the same bent pipe as is used for other purposes, although it could be: similar to other Mobile Satellite Service channels for instance. I would think it very unlikely they are flying either Rb or Cs. If they need high stability and precision, then they'd just recover the carrier from the uplink signal, because that could be as steady as you like it. I would think it would be cheaper to do that than to put an atomic reference up. Bent-pipe channels do a frequency change to eliminate singing. I imagine the datasheet for the rentable comm channels will give the frequency error and stability of the downlink signal. The international allocations for up and down frequencies are separated by quite a bit (Earth to Space and Space to Earth, respectively). For C band, up is around 6 GHz and down is around 4 GHz. That makes building a filter to separate them pretty easy. So the WAAS signal goes up on 4 and comes down on 1.5. What is really needed is a good description of the WAAS/EGNOS system, because it will give all those nice gory details. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
What's the specified tolerance on the 17,000 uF? You probably have quite a range to work within. If you are lucky, they specified something like +80/-20% and the 29,000 uF might be OK (measure it). On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.auwrote: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 108, Issue 35 On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 12:00:01 -0400, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 5 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:56:46 -0700 From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) Message-ID: 51d83e3e.2050...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/6/13 8:10 AM, jmfranke wrote: http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/WAAS_Signal_Structure Doppler Shift: The Doppler shift, as perceived by a stationary user, on the signal broadcast by WAAS GEOs is less than 40 meters per second (?210 Hz at L1) in the worst case (at the end of life of the GEOs). That is more a requirement on the spacecraft. Precompensation from the ground won't work... if the satellite is driving West, then users to the west see the frequency go up, and users to the east see it go down. Carrier Frequency Stability: The short term stability of the carrier frequency (square root of the Allan Variance) at the input of the user?s receiver antenna will be better than 5x10-11 over 1 to 10 seconds, excluding the effects of the ionosphere and Doppler. that sounds like comparable to a decent OCXO (10811A, etc.) Polarization: The broadcast signal is right-handed circularly polarized. The ellipticity will be no worse than 2 dB for the angular range of ?9.1o from boresight. Antenna spec.. Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
All: This is still not going well. I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP. the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so I know the port is good. I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried with and without a null modem. No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on comm/x. /Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org / / On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
On 07/06/2013 06:29 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. If it is within the Gold codes being used for GPS and WAAS, they only need to alter the 10 bit reset-value of the G2 PRN code. See the WAAS specification, as this method is being recommended for receivers. Within that limit, it is relatively cheap to provide code tunability. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
Have you put a scope on the Nortel's transmit lead? If it happens to be putting out data you can at least determine the baud rate and whether it's TTL or RS232 levels. It might put out some kind of startup message on powerup. Ed On 7/6/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Sanford wrote: All: This is still not going well. I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP. the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so I know the port is good. I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried with and without a null modem. No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on comm/x. /Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org / / On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
Is this Trimble Thunderbolt the Nortel-Trimble NTGS50AA board? I had a problem with the com port of my unit upon removing it from the cabinet for some improvements. After driving me nuts the problem was caused by the internal com cable which had a factory reversed connector that was unnoticed before. I had put the full story recently on this list. Regards, Ignacio EB4APL On 06/07/2013 18:56, Jim Sanford wrote: All: This is still not going well. I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP. the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so I know the port is good. I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried with and without a null modem. No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on comm/x. /Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org / / On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
A lot of the changes from bent pipe to the new system including C-band uplink is explained here: http://www.insidegnss.com/node/697 While there, downlink the extended PDF version. John WA4WDL -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 12:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) On 07/06/2013 06:29 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. If it is within the Gold codes being used for GPS and WAAS, they only need to alter the 10 bit reset-value of the G2 PRN code. See the WAAS specification, as this method is being recommended for receivers. Within that limit, it is relatively cheap to provide code tunability. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
-- From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 2:09 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) A lot of the changes from bent pipe to the new system including C-band uplink is explained here: http://www.insidegnss.com/node/697 While there, downlink the extended PDF version. John WA4WDL -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 12:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) On 07/06/2013 06:29 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. If it is within the Gold codes being used for GPS and WAAS, they only need to alter the 10 bit reset-value of the G2 PRN code. See the WAAS specification, as this method is being recommended for receivers. Within that limit, it is relatively cheap to provide code tunability. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
A lot of the changes from bent pipe to the new system including C-band uplink is explained here: http://www.insidegnss.com/node/697 While there, downlink the extended PDF version. John WA4WDL -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 12:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) On 07/06/2013 06:29 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. If it is within the Gold codes being used for GPS and WAAS, they only need to alter the 10 bit reset-value of the G2 PRN code. See the WAAS specification, as this method is being recommended for receivers. Within that limit, it is relatively cheap to provide code tunability. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
Sorry about the duplicates, email issue. John WA4WDL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB remodulator schematics and experimental 3 transistor remod
Please find the attached schematics in expressPC .sch format for the following. WWVB receiver MAS6180 CMAX CME6005 available from Brent KD0GLS Remodulator Digital version using 2 74HC series chips Analog experimental version using 3 X 2n3904 transistors What I have run across is that the spectracoms are indeed picky. You must be under .75 Hz for the unit. Several xtal I have simply would not go there but the 60 Khz xtals are cheap and available by Ebay from China. I picked up 50 units for a few dollars and cherry pick them. The Xtals will only move a few Hertz no matter what I really did. On the experimental remod. It indeed has a slow startup time approx 15 seconds and thats actually expected. Regards Paul WB8TSL CME6005 receiver 07062013.sch Description: Binary data MAS6180 receiver 07062013.sch Description: Binary data Remodulator 3 transistor experimental 07062013.sch Description: Binary data Remodulator 07062013.sch Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] FTGH: 3x 52 MHz Oscillators
Hi, I have three NKG3141A mini oscillators or crystals. One is marked 52.000 I think they are all the same, but am not positive. They are of no particular use to me. If you want them, drop me an email off-list. First come, first served. Best, -John = ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
Not yet. Have to find/build a breakout box. Was hoping I'm doing something stupid with a setting On 7/6/2013 1:17 PM, Ed Palmer wrote: Have you put a scope on the Nortel's transmit lead? If it happens to be putting out data you can at least determine the baud rate and whether it's TTL or RS232 levels. It might put out some kind of startup message on powerup. Ed On 7/6/2013 10:56 AM, Jim Sanford wrote: All: This is still not going well. I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP. the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so I know the port is good. I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried with and without a null modem. No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on comm/x. /Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org / / On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
It is a Nortel, but no cables inside -- everything is on 1 board. On 7/6/2013 1:36 PM, EB4APL wrote: Is this Trimble Thunderbolt the Nortel-Trimble NTGS50AA board? I had a problem with the com port of my unit upon removing it from the cabinet for some improvements. After driving me nuts the problem was caused by the internal com cable which had a factory reversed connector that was unnoticed before. I had put the full story recently on this list. Regards, Ignacio EB4APL On 06/07/2013 18:56, Jim Sanford wrote: All: This is still not going well. I have tried 3 different computers, 2 running Win7 and one running XP. the XP machine successfully controls an Icom radio on the same port, so I know the port is good. I have tried a new serial cable. I have tried with and without a null modem. No matter what I do, Lady Heather reports no serial communications on comm/x. /Thanks 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org / / On 7/6/2013 10:44 AM, Ed Palmer wrote: Certainly if you need a full implementation with various control leads you might have to dig out the breakout box and figure it out. But the volts / no volts idea is still useful for connecting pairs like RTS/CTS or DSR/DTR. But I'm surprised how many devices don't use the control leads. Most of the devices I work with don't even use software flow control. Ed On 7/5/2013 10:06 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: I always cursed when I tried to figure out how to wire an RS232 cable until I realized that transmit had a voltage on it while receive was close to zero volts. So now I just remember that volts on one end connects to no volts on the other end. Works every time and I don't have to think about straight or cross-over. That only works if there are only three wiresand no handshaking. What if there is DTE/DCE and so on? But I think in this case it is just a three wire connection but still there is room for errors like for example is one of them a TTL level and the other RS-232. Some times you can mix the two, sometimes not. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Magnus, you are right, I forgot to mention that without a time-stamping counter it is better to offset the PPSes. With a time stamping counter more cases can be treated such as a free oscillator. On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Magnus wrote: For +/- TI mode, using a separate ARM does not help either, since either of the channels suffice as trigger, and the relative timing is resolve dynamically by the counter. For most time, the dead-time will be hidden, but for longer runs where A/B timing diverge, it can create the same issues as the remaining time from the STOP to the START (as the sequence now has been assigned and maintained) can become to short to cover up the dead-time. But that is the thing about using ARM as I described -- the sequence is NOT maintained, it is generated fresh every period (every second, in my example). So every period, you get a + or - TI reading depending on which trigger event (START or STOP) occurs first after the ARM pulse. Of course, this depends on the START and STOP events always being much closer to each other than 1/2 the measurement interval (in my example, two 1 pps signals that are always within 100 mS of each other; in reality, this could even be 300 mS if the ARM pulse is accurately located). I did not have any trouble with a dead zone. I think this is because if the counter misses a trigger, it will always be re-armed before the next terminating trigger event occurs, so it would just not report a time for that period. Or have I misunderstood what you were saying? Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
On 7/6/13 9:29 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. the class of codes used is pretty restricted (e.g. Gold/Kasami codes with 10 bit generators), at least for GPS. Most correlator and generator implementations are somewhat programmable, at least as far as the tap configuration and the initial load. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
All: I suspected I had some stupid setting wrong . . . . . well, close. Turns out the port labelled COMM1 is in fact, COMM2. Once I figured that out, both LadyHeather and TBOLTmon communicate. Now I have to figure out why, after acquiring a LOCK yesterday, today it is declarning, ANTENNA OPEN. Thanks for all the help! 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Or have I misunderstood what you were saying? But what happens if, over a day, your DUT 1PPS wanders ahead and/or beyond the REF 1PPS? This is common with GPS 1PPS boards or with too-accurate house 1PPS references or when comparing poor quartz with a GPSDO. One symptom is that all your TI numbers look positive and right, but the *measurement interval* subtly changes from one clean measurement every 1 second to one clean measurement every 2 seconds. This kind of raw data is hard to process with standard time/frequency stability tools, because they expect tau to be constant. The solution is either a time-stamping counter, or to deliberately offset the DUT or REF by enough microseconds to avoid any sign changes in TIC measurements ever. I'm curious if you've discovered a reliable third alternative. Without reproducing your ARM/START/STOP scenario here myself, it sort of sounds like you're moving the start ahead in time. True, this will give nice valid positive TI measurements but your consistent tau is now silently corrupted. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
On 07/06/2013 08:53 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: Magnus wrote: For +/- TI mode, using a separate ARM does not help either, since either of the channels suffice as trigger, and the relative timing is resolve dynamically by the counter. For most time, the dead-time will be hidden, but for longer runs where A/B timing diverge, it can create the same issues as the remaining time from the STOP to the START (as the sequence now has been assigned and maintained) can become to short to cover up the dead-time. But that is the thing about using ARM as I described -- the sequence is NOT maintained, it is generated fresh every period (every second, in my example). So every period, you get a + or - TI reading depending on which trigger event (START or STOP) occurs first after the ARM pulse. Of course, this depends on the START and STOP events always being much closer to each other than 1/2 the measurement interval (in my example, two 1 pps signals that are always within 100 mS of each other; in reality, this could even be 300 mS if the ARM pulse is accurately located). True. But you need to either keep them tight or have ARMing at half rate. If you don't, you end up with issues when one of the PPSes occurs at the time of the arming. At that time the dead-time will make the ARM trigger being missed, and you have the same end-game. That's why you need to go sub-rate on the ARM trigger to make any reasonable guarantees. *IF* there is systematic guarantees for reasonable relative tracking, things becomes easier. You need to know the corner cases to know when you can do what, with guarantees to achieve the expected result. I did not have any trouble with a dead zone. I think this is because if the counter misses a trigger, it will always be re-armed before the next terminating trigger event occurs, so it would just not report a time for that period. Yes, and that causes you to miss a sample, which I do point out. It's a bad thing too. Or have I misunderstood what you were saying? Not completely, but I was trying to point out a bunch of corner cases and their consequences. I would have to make a whole bunch of diagrams to illustrate it all, so it may not come out very clearly in text. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nortel Trimble thunderbolt
Hi ANTENNA OPEN = antenna isn't drawing the current it should. You may have a low current antenna / the sense resistor may be shorted / the sense ADC is blown. Fast check - put a tee in series with the antenna. Terminate the open port with a 200 to 400 ohm resistor. If the problem does not go away, it's not a low current antenna. If it switches to antenna overload then it's almost certainly a low current antenna. Bob On Jul 6, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote: All: I suspected I had some stupid setting wrong . . . . . well, close. Turns out the port labelled COMM1 is in fact, COMM2. Once I figured that out, both LadyHeather and TBOLTmon communicate. Now I have to figure out why, after acquiring a LOCK yesterday, today it is declarning, ANTENNA OPEN. Thanks for all the help! 73, Jim wb4...@amsat.org ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Hi Azelio, On 07/06/2013 10:22 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote: Magnus, you are right, I forgot to mention that without a time-stamping counter it is better to offset the PPSes. With a time stamping counter more cases can be treated such as a free oscillator. Agreed. Many of the issues can be handled with sub-rate arming, either to the start or to the arm input. It's just quite tricky to understand all the corner-cases, so I thought we could use the discussion. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage
How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 12:57 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. From: Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 13:25 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... Hi Nigel, The only screw type electro can find is 29000uf@10V. it's the same dimensions. Should I risk the strain on the rectifiers (another 10Kuf is rather a lot)? Without this timer I am dead in the water so I need to do the right thing here... That's why I posted on the Agilent group too, I need to be sure that I do the right thing! By the way, the failed electro measures 39uf :) I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. -marki -Original Message- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
On 07/06/2013 11:02 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Or have I misunderstood what you were saying? But what happens if, over a day, your DUT 1PPS wanders ahead and/or beyond the REF 1PPS? This is common with GPS 1PPS boards or with too-accurate house 1PPS references or when comparing poor quartz with a GPSDO. One symptom is that all your TI numbers look positive and right, but the *measurement interval* subtly changes from one clean measurement every 1 second to one clean measurement every 2 seconds. This kind of raw data is hard to process with standard time/frequency stability tools, because they expect tau to be constant. The solution is either a time-stamping counter, or to deliberately offset the DUT or REF by enough microseconds to avoid any sign changes in TIC measurements ever. I'm curious if you've discovered a reliable third alternative. As I point out, sub-rate triggering can resolve the issue completely, at the expense of rate in samples. That is, you get stable results at a lower rate. Another approach that has been used is to use a pair of counters, where the measurement-period of one covers the dead-time of the other. It's an alternative approach being relative to the sub-rate triggering. Without reproducing your ARM/START/STOP scenario here myself, it sort of sounds like you're moving the start ahead in time. True, this will give nice valid positive TI measurements but your consistent tau is now silently corrupted. Which is what I wanted to avoid, unstable tau. I did hint about a possible cover-up action by the software. There should be a separate trace in the measurement to indicate when covered up samples exists and a Performance Monitoring counter. This is an indicator of problems and quality. Potentially should the degrees of freedom be reduced accordingly. Not indicating the missing samples on trigger-missing, is bad. Really bad. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Hopefully HP Voltage Derated the Cap as well so it can handle our 250V here.. We are across the road from the main transformer for the area so the voltage is highest at our place, I checked the meter box this morning - it is 255-258V on all 3 phases, no wonder I am having problems. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Orin Eman Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 2:12 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k What's the specified tolerance on the 17,000 uF? You probably have quite a range to work within. If you are lucky, they specified something like +80/-20% and the 29,000 uF might be OK (measure it). On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.auwrote: C3 (17000uf @ 10v) is open circuit. Where am I going to get one of those from. I need some advice here, Should I just use modern low ESR solder lug type soldered directly onto the board? Or Should I try and locate a screw terminal type Capacitor? Obviously, I want to do the best for this timer as I rely on it tremendously. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:47 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Checked the PSU voltages on the PSU card next to the 10811. The -5.2 is reading -4.2. Took a look with the scope and instead of a nice flat DC I see a 4V Peak to Peak spike @ 100Hz. Trying to track down a service manual. Any ideas on this one guys, if the Pass tranny was shorted, it would be a lot more than 4.2V unless the overvoltage Zener is able to sink all that current... -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013 8:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k I went to use my 5370B todayt and noticed the LEDS on the display are slowly sort of pulsing bright one after another. Also all the push button LEDS are going on and off one by one. The strangest thing is that it appears to be working o/k via HPIB. I don't have extender boards but I do have a signature analyser. Could it be something silly like one of the PSU regulator has gone kaput? Has anyone seen this issue before? -marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage
On 7/6/13 2:39 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? Then the voltage on the secondary of the buck transformer is subtracted from the line voltage. This is a very common thing commercially where you have what's called a buck/boost transformer to adjust the line voltage. Typically to boost it at the end of a long run where resistive drops make the voltage too low. The low voltage secondary must be big enough to carry the entire load current, of course. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 12:57 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
On 7/6/13 2:46 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: Hopefully HP Voltage Derated the Cap as well so it can handle our 250V here.. We are across the road from the main transformer for the area so the voltage is highest at our place, I checked the meter box this morning - it is 255-258V on all 3 phases, no wonder I am having problems. Is that nominally 240 phase to neutral/ 415 phase to phase. typically, the utility is allowed 10% tolerance.. I see that wikipedia says AS60038 calls out 230V +10% -6% so that's 253 to 216 One thing to be wary of is that the utility supplies voltages at, say, 120V or 240V (in the US), but utilization equipment (motors, for instance) is labeled as 115V or 230V. This accounts for the 2% voltage drop in the branch circuit, among other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
I just checked the HP manual, most of the linear equipment is specified: 240V +5/-10% So, I am a little over at 258V here ): I am going to unplug everything until I can get this sorted out. Can't afford to lose anything more, in both time and spares obtainability. marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 8:01 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k On 7/6/13 2:46 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: Hopefully HP Voltage Derated the Cap as well so it can handle our 250V here.. We are across the road from the main transformer for the area so the voltage is highest at our place, I checked the meter box this morning - it is 255-258V on all 3 phases, no wonder I am having problems. Is that nominally 240 phase to neutral/ 415 phase to phase. typically, the utility is allowed 10% tolerance.. I see that wikipedia says AS60038 calls out 230V +10% -6% so that's 253 to 216 One thing to be wary of is that the utility supplies voltages at, say, 120V or 240V (in the US), but utilization equipment (motors, for instance) is labeled as 115V or 230V. This accounts for the 2% voltage drop in the branch circuit, among other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
This is an old trick that I learned many years ago. By taking a transformer, driving its primary from the mains and then feeding that transformer's secondary voltage in series (either in phase or out of phase) will either add (in phase) voltage to the transformer primary, or subtract (out of phase) voltage to the transformer thereby reducing the transformer's primary voltage by the amount of the buck/boost transformers secondary voltage. It's important to use a transformer for the buck or boost circuit that can handle the amps necessary for the particular load. I often used Healthy filament transformers to do the job.For example... At one time I had a Kenwood 820S transceiver that I picked up in Japan. Japan's mains voltage was 100 VAC. When I got back home I needed to get the 120 VAC stepped down to 100 VAC to properly run this rig. What I did was to take a Triad multi-voltage Dry-Disk transformer and connect the primary winding across the 120 VAC mains. In this case I used the 18 VAC secondary windings and put that in series but out of phase, with the Kenwood Radio's primary. This reduced the 120 VAC going into the Kenwood to about 102 VAC (120V-18V=102 Volts). Had I connected the Dry-Disk transformer's winding in series and in phase I would've had 138 volts. I hope this helps. Burt, K6OQK Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Check with your power company. They may be able to switch taps on the transformer to reduce the voltage. I don't know what the situation is for you, but in some places power companies can be forced to repair/replace equipment that they fry due to faults in their system. Ed On 7/6/2013 5:14 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: I just checked the HP manual, most of the linear equipment is specified: 240V +5/-10% So, I am a little over at 258V here ): I am going to unplug everything until I can get this sorted out. Can't afford to lose anything more, in both time and spares obtainability. marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 8:01 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k On 7/6/13 2:46 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: Hopefully HP Voltage Derated the Cap as well so it can handle our 250V here.. We are across the road from the main transformer for the area so the voltage is highest at our place, I checked the meter box this morning - it is 255-258V on all 3 phases, no wonder I am having problems. Is that nominally 240 phase to neutral/ 415 phase to phase. typically, the utility is allowed 10% tolerance.. I see that wikipedia says AS60038 calls out 230V +10% -6% so that's 253 to 216 One thing to be wary of is that the utility supplies voltages at, say, 120V or 240V (in the US), but utilization equipment (motors, for instance) is labeled as 115V or 230V. This accounts for the 2% voltage drop in the branch circuit, among other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k
Yes that is true in Australia, but one has to prove that it is the utility companies fault. The main problem is we are right across the street for the main transformer for the area. So, the start of the 240V run for the whole neighbourhood basically. Our switchbox meter has a voltage function that I checked this morning, the voltage is ~255-258V on all 3 phases. I will give a call to power Co stating this is not no, but I don't like my chances. Boo.. -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ed Palmer Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 9:29 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k Check with your power company. They may be able to switch taps on the transformer to reduce the voltage. I don't know what the situation is for you, but in some places power companies can be forced to repair/replace equipment that they fry due to faults in their system. Ed On 7/6/2013 5:14 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: I just checked the HP manual, most of the linear equipment is specified: 240V +5/-10% So, I am a little over at 258V here ): I am going to unplug everything until I can get this sorted out. Can't afford to lose anything more, in both time and spares obtainability. marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 8:01 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB LEDS scannning and appears to be reading o/k On 7/6/13 2:46 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: Hopefully HP Voltage Derated the Cap as well so it can handle our 250V here.. We are across the road from the main transformer for the area so the voltage is highest at our place, I checked the meter box this morning - it is 255-258V on all 3 phases, no wonder I am having problems. Is that nominally 240 phase to neutral/ 415 phase to phase. typically, the utility is allowed 10% tolerance.. I see that wikipedia says AS60038 calls out 230V +10% -6% so that's 253 to 216 One thing to be wary of is that the utility supplies voltages at, say, 120V or 240V (in the US), but utilization equipment (motors, for instance) is labeled as 115V or 230V. This accounts for the 2% voltage drop in the branch circuit, among other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Burt I. Weiner Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 9:28 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage... This is an old trick that I learned many years ago. By taking a transformer, driving its primary from the mains and then feeding that transformer's secondary voltage in series (either in phase or out of phase) will either add (in phase) voltage to the transformer primary, or subtract (out of phase) voltage to the transformer thereby reducing the transformer's primary voltage by the amount of the buck/boost transformers secondary voltage. It's important to use a transformer for the buck or boost circuit that can handle the amps necessary for the particular load. I often used Healthy filament transformers to do the job.For example... At one time I had a Kenwood 820S transceiver that I picked up in Japan. Japan's mains voltage was 100 VAC. When I got back home I needed to get the 120 VAC stepped down to 100 VAC to properly run this rig. What I did was to take a Triad multi-voltage Dry-Disk transformer and connect the primary winding across the 120 VAC mains. In this case I used the 18 VAC secondary windings and put that in series but out of phase, with the Kenwood Radio's primary. This reduced the 120 VAC going into the Kenwood to about 102 VAC (120V-18V=102 Volts). Had I connected the Dry-Disk transformer's winding in series and in phase I would've had 138 volts. I hope this helps. Burt, K6OQK Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
Using a common filament transformer as a buck/boost reduces the insulation requirement between the primary and secondary. It does this by connecting the primary to the secondary. -Chuck Harris Mark C. Stephens wrote: The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
On 7/6/13 5:26 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. Most transformers have a voltage rating on ALL windings that is greater than several times the line voltage (e.g. 600V), and most undergo some sort of HiPot test as well, at several kV. If you're ripping the transformer out of some value engineered low cost piece of gear (like a $20 sprinkler timer), you might be worried about the LV winding. But anything sold as a standalone transformer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] +/- TI button on 5370B
Charles, On 07/07/2013 12:30 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: But what happens if, over a day, your DUT 1PPS wanders ahead and/or beyond the REF 1PPS? This is common with GPS 1PPS boards or with too-accurate house 1PPS references or when comparing poor quartz with a GPSDO. I generated the ARM 1 pps (it's not a REF 1 pps) from one of the trigger signals. Its only purpose is to arm the counter at the approximate midway point through the period of the two signals being compared, so its accuracy is not a factor as long as it's not so bad that it wanders all the way around to between the two trigger events. One could use almost anything, including a 555 one-shot, for 1 pps signals. My scenario was drawn from the OP, who IIRC was comparing 1 pps signals from two GPSDOs. In that case, you know beforehand that the trigger events will always be relatively close together compared to the period of the events, so it is easy to place the ARM event far away (per period) from the trigger events -- far enough that neither trigger event will wander into an overlap with it. There are certainly plenty of other situations in which this would not work. Arming from one of the triggers will make the arming and that trigger relate nicely, but it doesn't help for the other PPS. (You say wandering is commom with GPS 1 pps boards -- have you really seen them wander on the order of 500 mS with respect to true GPS pps?) I never said GPS. I was looking at the general problem and it's corner cases. I did however say that there can be mechanisms which bounds the differences, which in that case could form a guarantee for it not to become a problem. If one of the signal sources is not a GPS but a free-rolling clock, then you need to care about the full set of triggering details, which was what I was looking at. The solution is either a time-stamping counter, or to deliberately offset the DUT or REF by enough microseconds to avoid any sign changes in TIC measurements ever. I'm curious if you've discovered a reliable third alternative. Without reproducing your ARM/START/STOP scenario here myself, it sort of sounds like you're moving the start ahead in time. True, this will give nice valid positive TI measurements but your consistent tau is now silently corrupted. The question posed was why doesn't the 5370B do what I expect in +/- TI mode? I wasn't trying to answer how can I set up a 5370B so that every possible measurement can be made in +/- TI mode? True. I diverted inspired of that discussion, which I indicated. The scheme I described compares two signals of nominally equal period and reports results as +/- time intervals, as long as the absolute value of the TI is always less than 1/2 of the period of the signals. It is effectively the same as delaying one of the test signals by 500 mS [in the case of 1 pps signals]. In both cases, you have an ambiguity if the test signals can wander as far as 1/2 period in relation to each other. Your stop signal needs to be well in advance of the arming, or the arming will miss as the counter was still in it's dead-time. But I suspect you mean something else. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
Marki, I used an old thyratron filament transformer from a computer tape drive to compensate for low line voltage in Detroit. Even though the transformer was rated 10A it ran our old room air conditioner just fine. From the core size it seemed more like a 200W transformer, and it never gave any problems. So just make sure the secondary current rating of the transformer you get exceeds your expected load current some and heating should not be a problem. Better yet, have it exceed your mains fuse / breaker rating some. As for insulation resistance any quality filament transformer will have a secondary insulation voltage rating called out, as long as it exceeds the mains voltage you should have no concern. Beware of so-called rectifier transformers that may not have a published insulation rating, they may not be suitable for your task. For how one company promotes and wires their buck-boost transformers see http://www.signaltransformer.com/sites/all/pdf/ICT.pdf Another possibility is to find a transformer with a 230V primary having a 208V tap (not too uncommon in the US). Feed the 230V point, use the 208V tap for your loads. Be aware that in this case the transformer would need a primary current rating to exceed your your load, so the transformer would be much bigger than the filament buck-boost transformer approach. And do package things so there are no exposed transformer leads or terminals. My transformer had wire leads, I was able to button everything up in a 4 x 4 x 2 electrical wiring box, and use common 15A pigtail connectors on short cables for mains and load. Good luck, Bob LaJeunesse From: Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage... The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
On 7/6/2013 5:26 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Burt I. Weiner Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 9:28 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage... This is an old trick that I learned many years ago. By taking a transformer, driving its primary from the mains and then feeding that transformer's secondary voltage in series (either in phase or out of phase) will either add (in phase) voltage to the transformer primary, or subtract (out of phase) voltage to the transformer thereby reducing the transformer's primary voltage by the amount of the buck/boost transformers secondary voltage. It's important to use a transformer for the buck or boost circuit that can handle the amps necessary for the particular load. I often used Healthy filament transformers to do the job.For example... At one time I had a Kenwood 820S transceiver that I picked up in Japan. Japan's mains voltage was 100 VAC. When I got back home I needed to get the 120 VAC stepped down to 100 VAC to properly run this rig. What I did was to take a Triad multi-voltage Dry-Disk transformer and connect the primary winding across the 120 VAC mains. In this case I used the 18 VAC secondary windings and put that in series but out of phase, with the Kenwood Radio's primary. This reduced the 120 VAC going into the Kenwood to about 102 VAC (120V-18V=102 Volts). Had I connected the Dry-Disk transformer's winding in series and in phase I would've had 138 volts. I hope this helps. Burt, K6OQK Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Check the ARRL Radio AmateurHandbook. This trick has been around for years. KI6WAS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage
On 7/6/2013 2:39 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: How Does that Work Robert? I mean why out of phase? -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: Sunday, 7 July 2013 12:57 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage Hi Marki, Dropping the mains voltage is easy. Get a mains to low voltage transformer. Connect the primary across the mains and the secondary in series opposition (out of phase) with the mains supply. Foar example a 100VA 12V transformer will drop your mains to just under 238V with a maximum load of 8A (the current rating of the secondary). HTH, Robert G8RPI. From: Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 13:25 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B Leds pulsing slowly, buttons selecting normally, PB ... Hi Nigel, The only screw type electro can find is 29000uf@10V. it's the same dimensions. Should I risk the strain on the rectifiers (another 10Kuf is rather a lot)? Without this timer I am dead in the water so I need to do the right thing here... That's why I posted on the Agilent group too, I need to be sure that I do the right thing! By the way, the failed electro measures 39uf :) I reckon, the line voltage here is 250v and the equipment is set for 240V, that extra 10V on the mains is why I am having so much equipment failure. Also the Heat sink on the 5370B got so hot I mounted a 5 fan across it to keep it at a respectable temperature. How can I drop the Mains to 240V, I have a boat load of gear that needs to be powered concurrently. (8566A, 8568B, 3585A, 5335A, 5370B, 8901A, etc, powered on together) we are starting to talk some serious current there. -marki -Original Message- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Because, when you wire the secondary in series with the primary out of phase, the voltage sum drops. this is because when thewave in the primary is high positive, the wave in the secondary is high negative. so a 12 volt transformer will reduce the voltage by 12 volts. If you wire them in series, it will add 12 volts. It is nothing more than an auto-transformer. KI6WAS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
Hi Ok, lets *assume* there is some uber secret gizmo in the sat that makes the unsupervised signal absolutely perfect when transmitted from the sat. The sat still moves relative to the ground. It's speed is a vector in three dimensions (up / down , north / south, east / west). Depending on your location relative to the sat, the doppler will be different. A cheap GPSDO will give you 1x10^-11 all day long, pretty much forever. It'll do much better over long time spans. At 1.5 GHz, that would be 0.015 Hz. If doppler is in the 50 to 100 Hz range, you need to cancel it by 1000:1 simply to get the carrier as good as a simple GPSDO. That's going to require accurate position data on the sat, it's velocity (all real time), and your location. - Next you need data on the rest of the constellation. They fly in the same space as the WAAS birds, and transmit on the same frequencies. As they pass within the capture area of your antenna you will need a way to figure out which is the GPS and which is the WAAS sat. The easy way to do that would be to run a GPS to get all the data and then process it….. Dish costs something Downconverter costs something Signal processing the received signal costs something You still need a GPS You still need a good local OCXO as a flywheel It's going to be tough to convince me that's any cheaper than a GPSDO - Lots of things to slog through. I suspect there are other sat signals that are better candidates. Bob On Jul 6, 2013, at 2:23 PM, jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net wrote: A lot of the changes from bent pipe to the new system including C-band uplink is explained here: http://www.insidegnss.com/node/697 While there, downlink the extended PDF version. John WA4WDL -- From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 12:57 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS) On 07/06/2013 06:29 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: Code/Carrier Frequency Coherence: The lack of coherence between the broadcast carrier phase and the code phase shall be limited. The short term (10sec) fractional frequency difference between the code phase rate and the carrier frequency shall be less than 5x10-11 (one sigma). Over the long term (100 sec), the difference between the change in the broadcast code phase (convert to carrier cycles) and the change in the broadcast carrier phase shall be within one carrier cycle (one sigma). This is interesting. Does it imply that they regenerate the code on board? Very unlikely, because then the bird would have to understand every possible code, including those not invented when the bird was launched. If it is within the Gold codes being used for GPS and WAAS, they only need to alter the 10 bit reset-value of the G2 PRN code. See the WAAS specification, as this method is being recommended for receivers. Within that limit, it is relatively cheap to provide code tunability. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B dropping mains voltage...
Hi It's a rare filament transformer that does not have fairly substantial voltage ratings on the secondary. They rated them so you could directly heat rectifiers off of them. That could / would put the full high voltage winding onto the filaments. Bob On Jul 6, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 7/6/13 5:26 PM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: The elephant in the room thing with me is SAFETY :) I mean, can this be a fire hazard, what about the insulation breakdown on the secondary winding etc.. Most transformers have a voltage rating on ALL windings that is greater than several times the line voltage (e.g. 600V), and most undergo some sort of HiPot test as well, at several kV. If you're ripping the transformer out of some value engineered low cost piece of gear (like a $20 sprinkler timer), you might be worried about the LV winding. But anything sold as a standalone transformer. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speaking of Costas loops (WAAS)
On 7/6/13 7:23 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, lets *assume* there is some uber secret gizmo in the sat that makes the unsupervised signal absolutely perfect when transmitted from the sat. The sat still moves relative to the ground. It's speed is a vector in three dimensions (up / down , north / south, east / west). Depending on your location relative to the sat, the doppler will be different. A cheap GPSDO will give you 1x10^-11 all day long, pretty much forever. It'll do much better over long time spans. At 1.5 GHz, that would be 0.015 Hz. If doppler is in the 50 to 100 Hz range, you need to cancel it by 1000:1 simply to get the carrier as good as a simple GPSDO. That's going to require accurate position data on the sat, it's velocity (all real time), and your location. - Next you need data on the rest of the constellation. They fly in the same space as the WAAS birds, and transmit on the same frequencies. As they pass within the capture area of your antenna you will need a way to figure out which is the GPS and which is the WAAS sat. The easy way to do that would be to run a GPS to get all the data and then process it….. Dish costs something Downconverter costs something Signal processing the received signal costs something You still need a GPS You still need a good local OCXO as a flywheel It's going to be tough to convince me that's any cheaper than a GPSDO I think you're right.. But time-nuts don't always go for the easy way.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
