Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Chris Albertson
The ball bearing fan upgrade is the best idea.  Bater idea is to put
in a temperature controlled fan so it will spin slow or stop most of
the time.

I don't see the need to run each server on it's own hardware.  Put the
cashing DNS server on the same box as the NTP server.  Or if you do
have two boxes run the NTP server on both

In terms of performance, ARM based credit card sized computers do well
if you can get the PPS to the general purpose I/O pin that interrupts
on an edge.  the Pi can't do that the BeagleBone Black can and it sell
for $45.  It can share a power supply with your Thunderbolt,
literally, no fan and it can just steel power from any GPS receiver.

The BBB can like run a DNS server at the same time

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Frank Hughes via time-nuts
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
 Hi,Years ago this forum helped me put together my first GPSDO and NTP server. 
 Using a then-popular INTEL ATOM board, FreeBSD w/ the NTP kernel, 1PPS input 
 from aTB, works great. But as the years go by, HW improves/evolves and it 
 might be time to recreate this functionin some other modern HW.
 Looking for a platform not needing a fan. While the ATOM and SSD seem to be 
 OK w/o direct airflow, the Mini ITX Power Supply fan is needed.
 After three years, the stupid sleeve bearings are beginning to 
 rattlewhich led me to this design review.
 Recently built a Caching DNS for the home LAN using a Technologic Systems 
 TS-7250-V2, general purpose PC/104 embedded system  Runs Debian, 3.14 kernel.
 Hardware Description:800 MHz CPU (PXA166)512 MB RAMMicro SD card socketRTC 
 with battery and temp compensationTemp Sensor10/100 ethernet port2 USB HS 
 Host ports3x RS-232 serial ports3x TTL serial portsRS-485 portPC/104 
 connectorUSB device console port (Micro B connector)LCD and DIO Headers75 TTL 
 DIO (including PC/104 conn)5VDC or 8-28VDC power inputA/D converter, 5 
 channels (with 4-20 mA current loop)
 A more expensive alternative to the Pi, but reasonable.
 Wondering if a TS-7250-V2 is worth a try for the NTP function, or if anyone 
 here has already used one of thesefor NTP?
 Or other non-Pi alternatives? I would very much appreciate some guidance as 
 to the HW/SW combinationthat would best replace the existing NTP server.
 - 1PPS is available from both a Trimble TB and a Jackson Labs Fury, so I 
 could build a parallel system.
 Or just put a ball-bearing fan in...73Frank HughesKJ4OLL
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Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Daniel Mendes
I think beagle bone black is the answer to this question (because rPi 
has a USB-network interface that´s problematic) but i´ll let others 
that know more than me about this specific subject follow on


Daniel

On 06/04/2015 19:29, Frank Hughes via time-nuts wrote:

Hi,Years ago this forum helped me put together my first GPSDO and NTP server. 
Using a then-popular INTEL ATOM board, FreeBSD w/ the NTP kernel, 1PPS input 
from aTB, works great. But as the years go by, HW improves/evolves and it might 
be time to recreate this functionin some other modern HW.
Looking for a platform not needing a fan. While the ATOM and SSD seem to be OK 
w/o direct airflow, the Mini ITX Power Supply fan is needed.
After three years, the stupid sleeve bearings are beginning to 
rattlewhich led me to this design review.
Recently built a Caching DNS for the home LAN using a Technologic Systems 
TS-7250-V2, general purpose PC/104 embedded system  Runs Debian, 3.14 kernel.
Hardware Description:800 MHz CPU (PXA166)512 MB RAMMicro SD card socketRTC with 
battery and temp compensationTemp Sensor10/100 ethernet port2 USB HS Host 
ports3x RS-232 serial ports3x TTL serial portsRS-485 portPC/104 connectorUSB 
device console port (Micro B connector)LCD and DIO Headers75 TTL DIO (including 
PC/104 conn)5VDC or 8-28VDC power inputA/D converter, 5 channels (with 4-20 mA 
current loop)
A more expensive alternative to the Pi, but reasonable.
Wondering if a TS-7250-V2 is worth a try for the NTP function, or if anyone 
here has already used one of thesefor NTP?
Or other non-Pi alternatives? I would very much appreciate some guidance as to 
the HW/SW combinationthat would best replace the existing NTP server.
- 1PPS is available from both a Trimble TB and a Jackson Labs Fury, so I could 
build a parallel system.
Or just put a ball-bearing fan in...73Frank HughesKJ4OLL
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Brian Lloyd
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Frank Hughes via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Looking for a platform not needing a fan. While the ATOM and SSD seem to
 be OK w/o direct airflow, the Mini ITX Power Supply fan is needed.
 After three years, the stupid sleeve bearings are beginning to
 rattlewhich led me to this design review.
 Recently built a Caching DNS for the home LAN using a Technologic Systems
 TS-7250-V2, general purpose PC/104 embedded system  Runs Debian, 3.14
 kernel.


Beagle Bone Black.

-- 



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706 Flightline Drive
Spring Branch, TX 78070
br...@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Attila Kinali
On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 22:29:23 + (UTC)
Frank Hughes via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Looking for a platform not needing a fan. While the ATOM and SSD seem to be 
 OK w/o direct airflow, the Mini ITX Power Supply fan is needed.

That depends highly on how much knowledge in linux and especially
embedded linux you have.

If you know how to build your own kernel, what initrd means and today
it's actually initramfs and not initrd and you do not fear to build
whole software systems by hand, then you can go for one of the many
embedded boards. The beaglebone black, the minnow max and SAMA5D come
to mind. The Minnow Max has the advantage of being an x86 based system
and thus behaves very much like it (not completely though). The BBB
has a huge supporting community and you can find a lot of information
online. The SAMA5D based systems are nice because Atmel seems to care
very much about proper support in the kernel.

If you don't feel confortable with the challenges of an embedded
system, i would recommend to stick with an ITX (or smaller) PC.
Eg The APU[1] from pc-engines, which is the successor of his successful
ALIX boards. Pascal Dornier is very helpfull if you have any issues
with his boards, and full documentation (including schematics) is online.


Attila Kinali

[1] http://www.pcengines.ch/apu.htm

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Re: [time-nuts] Need advice for multilateration setup

2015-04-07 Thread Attila Kinali
On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:02:01 +0200
Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 You want to keep your chip-rate up to make the integer ambiguity of the 
 carrier phase simple. The carrier frequency divided by chipping rate 
 ratio indicate how difficult problem it is to solve (GPS L1 C/A code has 
 1540). The 70 cm band has rather narrow allocations. The 23 cm band 
 allow for much wide allocations. The benefit of the 70 cm band is 
 naturally the easy of getting hardware.

Yes. But I would do carrier phase tracking only after code phase
tracking proved to be not accurate enough. Improving later and
switching to another band is relatively easy, once you've proven
that the system in principle works.

 Another benefit of a higher chipping rate is that it can allow for a 
 higher bandwidth, allowing for tighter tracking of the rocket dynamics.
 The chipping rate at some code legnth creates the maximum tracking rate, 
 and some fraction of that is the highest bandwidth tolerable.

That's a very good argument for higher chiping rates.

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] 53230A noise floor

2015-04-07 Thread Ole Petter Ronningen
Tangetially relevant; I made a patch for TimeLab to use the gap-free
frequency measurement-mode for the 53230A, if anyone is interested.

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote:

  There is probably a good explanation for the ADEV-level in standard
  (pi-counting?) reciprocal frequency counter mode as well as the roughly
  1/sqrt(10) enhancement in ADEV when increasing the gate-time 10-fold.

 Anders,

 See the part the end that shows why averaging breaks ADEV:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/adev-avg/

  I collected the data with a simple program that just calls the READ?
 function
  repeatedly, which does result in some dead-time between measurements.

 Yes, that's the easy way. But for more valid results use gap-free
 continuous mode (SENS:FREQ:MODE CONT). From the manual:

 CONTinuous configures the instrument to make continuous
 resolution-enhanced, gap-free measurements.  This mode should be selected
 for true Allan deviation computation (CALCulate:AVERage subsystem).  In
 this mode, all samples for a each trigger are started by a single gate open
 (instead of gate open/close per sample), and the measurements are computed
 back-to-back with no dead time.  CONTinuous can only be used for frequency
 and average period measurements. Available only on the Agilent 53230A.

 /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Hal Murray

albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 In terms of performance, ARM based credit card sized computers do well if
 you can get the PPS to the general purpose I/O pin that interrupts on an
 edge.  the Pi can't do that the BeagleBone Black can and it sell for $45.

What/why can't the Pi do?  I have one handy that is processing a PPS on a 
GPIO pin.

David Taylor has a web page with all the fine print on how to set it up.  
(Thanks.)






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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Daniel Mendes


Internally the rPI is a ver awkward beast: the CPU is connected to a 
GPU, and the GPU is connected to the GPIOs... so lots of jitter and latency.


It was designed to be a video decoder... the CPU is there for testing 
and housekeeping. It works, surelly, but it´s not designed to have low 
latency and jitter.


Daniel

On 07/04/2015 09:39, Hal Murray wrote:

albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:

In terms of performance, ARM based credit card sized computers do well if
you can get the PPS to the general purpose I/O pin that interrupts on an
edge.  the Pi can't do that the BeagleBone Black can and it sell for $45.

What/why can't the Pi do?  I have one handy that is processing a PPS on a
GPIO pin.

David Taylor has a web page with all the fine print on how to set it up.
(Thanks.)








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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Paul
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Frank Hughes via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

 Or just put a ball-bearing fan in



Sites like lilliputing follow the low power/embedded market.  I'd suggest
starting there.
All of my low power systems use power bricks.  This includes mini-itx
boards.
I've had bad experience with a Minnow board and a Sheva.
Okay experience with BeagleBoneBlack and RaspberryPi.
Good experience with Compulab fit-PC2 systems and Jetway mini-itx fanless
boards (the latter two using Atom CPUs).
Very good experience with Supermicro fanless mini-itx.

It turns out that list is also mostly sorted by price.
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Re: [time-nuts] Need advice for multilateration setup

2015-04-07 Thread Magnus Danielson

Hi,

On 04/07/2015 02:08 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:02:01 +0200
Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


You want to keep your chip-rate up to make the integer ambiguity of the
carrier phase simple. The carrier frequency divided by chipping rate
ratio indicate how difficult problem it is to solve (GPS L1 C/A code has
1540). The 70 cm band has rather narrow allocations. The 23 cm band
allow for much wide allocations. The benefit of the 70 cm band is
naturally the easy of getting hardware.


Yes. But I would do carrier phase tracking only after code phase
tracking proved to be not accurate enough. Improving later and
switching to another band is relatively easy, once you've proven
that the system in principle works.


One might look at the available frequencies and see if there is a 
telemetry band available which allows wider bandwidth. For the 
application, I don't see that very much transmitted power is needed.


There is definitely a benefit in locking up the carrier and chipping 
rate, preferably so that there is an integer number of carrier cycles 
per chip.


For those unused to the terminology, a chip is a single 0 or 1 out of 
the pseudo-random generator. It's encoded as +1 or -1 before being mixed 
with the carrier, thus forming an BPSK signal.


There is a gain for the receiver if the transmitter has the carrier and 
code synchronized to each other like this.



Another benefit of a higher chipping rate is that it can allow for a
higher bandwidth, allowing for tighter tracking of the rocket dynamics.
The chipping rate at some code legnth creates the maximum tracking rate,
and some fraction of that is the highest bandwidth tolerable.


That's a very good argument for higher chiping rates.


I expect that the launch is a bit challenging for the tracking loop.

Much of these challenges should be relatively easy to simulate, such 
that testing can be done before a the first solder-joint gets soldered.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread David J Taylor

I think beagle bone black is the answer to this question (because rPi
has a USB-network interface that´s problematic) but i´ll let others
that know more than me about this specific subject follow on

Daniel
==

Problematic if you are after microsecond-level accuracy, perhaps, but so 
would the BeagleBone be.  If your needs are more in the 100 microsecond 
range, either would be fine with a reasonably wide PPS pulse.  Yes, the 
BeagleBone is somewhat better at serving externally according to my own 
tests, but the Raspberry Pi has the greatest support in the community, if 
you want to use it for other tasks as well, and doesn't suffer from the 
problem of generating RF interference at GPS frequencies.


Both are excellent little devices!

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 


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Re: [time-nuts] Mini-time lab cost and maintenance

2015-04-07 Thread Ole Petter Ronningen
Every timelab needs a time interval counter. I'd say look for a HP 5334B
with option 010. I've picked up two from ebay for about USD100 each, and
that comes with a decent 18011. After that, watch your cash disappear as
you discover a need for faster/better/more accurate instruments, not to
mention better and better oscillators..

Ole

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
wrote:

 You can do a lot for $200 if you can build electronics yourself.
 Decent GPS with PPS starts at under $20 on eBay.  Same for surplus
 10MHz oscillators.  People have build usable counters for cheap
 microprocessor development boards and software.But it all depends
 on what you want to measure

 On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Adam Blakney akblak...@gmail.com wrote:
  I was wondering how expensive it would be to have even a small and lower
  level time lab. What are some less expensive models of machinery i would
  need, and how much maintenance is required?
 
  Thanks, Adam
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 --

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 Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] 53230A noise floor

2015-04-07 Thread Mod Mix

Ole Petter Ronningen:

Tangetially relevant; I made a patch for TimeLab to use the gap-free
frequency measurement-mode for the 53230A, if anyone is interested.

Thanks for this great support!
Ulli
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Attila Kinali
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:39:01 +0100
David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

 Problematic if you are after microsecond-level accuracy, perhaps, but so 
 would the BeagleBone be.  If your needs are more in the 100 microsecond 
 range, either would be fine with a reasonably wide PPS pulse.

Not really. If you know how to write C, you can use the
timer on the BBB and get to sub-us accuracy levels (IIRC ~10ns).
The biggest problem would be to get the data into ntp
in the right way, as I am not sure whether ntp supports
that kind of input. But I know at least someone working
on this.

The rpi has, AFAIK, no timer units

Attila Kinali

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 _av500_ getting dsl is hard
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Hal Murray

 Looking for a platform not needing a fan. While the ATOM and SSD seem to be
 OK w/o direct airflow, the Mini ITX Power Supply fan is needed. 

If you are happy with Raspberry Pi or BeagleBone Black, they are the low cost 
low power way to go.  They run Linux.  They don't have a real disk.  If you 
do a lot of disk activity, you might wear out the SD card frequently enough 
to be annoying.  That hasn't been a problem for me but I don't have a lot of 
years on them yet.  You could use a USB disk.

The Raspberry Pi has a HDMI connector so you can run a real display.  The BBB 
has a mini/micro HDMI connector.  I ignore those and ssh in from my main PC.  
(Some people refer to that mode of operation as headless.)


You can get no-fan style power for Mini-ITX size systems.  The ones I'm 
familiar with have a tiny DC-DC converter that mounts on the big power 
connector and runs off a laptop size external supply.
  http://www.mini-box.com/DC-DC


You could just change the fan or whole power supply whenever the fan dies.  
Maybe you will get lucky and find one with a fan that lasts a long time.


You could try an old laptop.  The battery will decay over the years, but it 
will probably work well enough to cover short dropouts and/or let you wander 
around for a few minutes.  Some laptops have fans.  (I have a Dell Latitude 
D430.  It has been running 24x7 for several years.  The fan still works.  The 
battery is only good for 10 or 15 minutes.)


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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Edesio Costa e Silva
Hi!

Take a look at
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-December/089217.html and
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-December/089681.html. There
you can see sub-microsecond accuracy.

Edésio

On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 09:52:57PM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
 On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:39:01 +0100
 David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
 
  Problematic if you are after microsecond-level accuracy, perhaps, but so 
  would the BeagleBone be.  If your needs are more in the 100 microsecond 
  range, either would be fine with a reasonably wide PPS pulse.
 
 Not really. If you know how to write C, you can use the
 timer on the BBB and get to sub-us accuracy levels (IIRC ~10ns).
 The biggest problem would be to get the data into ntp
 in the right way, as I am not sure whether ntp supports
 that kind of input. But I know at least someone working
 on this.
 
 The rpi has, AFAIK, no timer units
 
   Attila Kinali
 
 -- 
  _av500_ phd is easy
  _av500_ getting dsl is hard
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Re: [time-nuts] Need advice for multilateration setup

2015-04-07 Thread Jim Lux

On 4/7/15 11:33 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi,

O
One might look at the available frequencies and see if there is a
telemetry band available which allows wider bandwidth. For the
application, I don't see that very much transmitted power is needed.



If the OP is a licensed amateur radio person, then choosing one of the 
low microwave ham bands would be easy.  Parts to generate a carrier and 
BPSK at 2.39-2.45,3.3-3.5, 5.6-5.8 GHz are cheap and readily available.


You might be able to get away with a VCO and no crystal as the 
transmitter, but even if you can't, there's tons of PLLs out there that 
will nicely lock to a crystal and are cheap.


You might want to do a link budget and see how much power you need to 
radiate, so that you get a decent SNR at the receiver.


free space path loss between isotropic antennas (in dB)
= 34  + 20 log10(freq in MHz) + 20 log10(distance in km).

1km at 3 GHz is 34+69 = 103 dB.

If you radiate 1 mW (0dBm) from an omni (a piece of wire), you'll see 
-103 dBm at the input to your receiver, which is a fairly healthy 
signal.  A detection bandwidth of 10 Hz would have a noise floor of -164 
dBm before taking into account the receiver noise, but even if the 
receiver is terrible, you're still looking at tens of dB SNR with a very 
simple transmitter.








That's a very good argument for higher chiping rates.


I expect that the launch is a bit challenging for the tracking loop.


If you're trying to track in real time, certainly.  If you're doing post 
processing, less so.



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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Didier Juges
Is the new RPi2 any different in that regard?

On April 7, 2015 8:17:12 AM CDT, Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com wrote:

Internally the rPI is a ver awkward beast: the CPU is connected to a 
GPU, and the GPU is connected to the GPIOs... so lots of jitter and
latency.

It was designed to be a video decoder... the CPU is there for testing 
and housekeeping. It works, surelly, but it´s not designed to have low 
latency and jitter.

Daniel

On 07/04/2015 09:39, Hal Murray wrote:
 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 In terms of performance, ARM based credit card sized computers do
well if
 you can get the PPS to the general purpose I/O pin that interrupts
on an
 edge.  the Pi can't do that the BeagleBone Black can and it sell for
$45.
 What/why can't the Pi do?  I have one handy that is processing a PPS
on a
 GPIO pin.

 David Taylor has a web page with all the fine print on how to set it
up.
 (Thanks.)







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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

Now you need to sort out the B, the A+ and the B+ in the Raspberry world. There 
may be more that I have not yet noticed. As far as I can tell, they all are 
pretty limited
once you get past the tight video integration on the B and B+.

Bob

 On Apr 7, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Didier Juges shali...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Is the new RPi2 any different in that regard?
 
 On April 7, 2015 8:17:12 AM CDT, Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Internally the rPI is a ver awkward beast: the CPU is connected to a 
 GPU, and the GPU is connected to the GPIOs... so lots of jitter and
 latency.
 
 It was designed to be a video decoder... the CPU is there for testing 
 and housekeeping. It works, surelly, but it´s not designed to have low 
 latency and jitter.
 
 Daniel
 
 On 07/04/2015 09:39, Hal Murray wrote:
 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 In terms of performance, ARM based credit card sized computers do
 well if
 you can get the PPS to the general purpose I/O pin that interrupts
 on an
 edge.  the Pi can't do that the BeagleBone Black can and it sell for
 $45.
 What/why can't the Pi do?  I have one handy that is processing a PPS
 on a
 GPIO pin.
 
 David Taylor has a web page with all the fine print on how to set it
 up.
 (Thanks.)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern HW replacement for ATOM based NTP server?

2015-04-07 Thread Daniel Mendes



On 07/04/2015 17:58, Hal Murray wrote:
If you are happy with Raspberry Pi or BeagleBone Black, they are the 
low cost low power way to go. They run Linux. They don't have a real 
disk. If you do a lot of disk activity, you might wear out the SD 
card frequently enough to be annoying. That hasn't been a problem for 
me but I don't have a lot of years on them yet. You could use a USB disk. 


You can configure the main partition to run read only. This improves 
lots of things in this regard.


Daniel
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