Re: [time-nuts] Administrivia: The Spam Button

[Jack Hudler]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

Curious... did it cost you anything to sign up for this white list?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:35 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Administrivia: The Spam Button

After that, I signed up for AOL's whitelist service which forwards these
"TOS Notification" messages and at least gives me the benefit of the
doubt.  But too many supposed spams, and I can lose that status.  I'd
prefer to avoid that. :-)

John



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Re: [time-nuts] ** SPAM ** Re: Re: Bruce's link

[Jack Hudler]

Boy that's a religious issue if I ever heard one! 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 11:42 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ** SPAM ** Re: Re: Bruce's link

Hi Jeffrey

Is Unix really impervious? I thought it was a lot better than Windoze in
terms of security, but not completely impenetrable.

Rob

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Pawlan
Sent: 14 December 2007 02:41
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] ** SPAM ** Re: Re: Bruce's link



On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Have just checked I dont see any P... site, the problem may be at your
end.
> However I do get an extraneous nonporn  popup window Will try to 
> locate reliable links to the actual pdf files for these circuits.
>
> Failing that I've actually downloaded them and can send them to anyone 
> who wants them.
>
> Bruce


The problem is definitely not in my Sun workstation which is fortunately
running unix so it is impervious to all the bad people out there. But I have
noticed that sites target the locale of the IP address that is trying to
access the URL.

Then depending on the laws of that country and also the whims of the site
owner, one will get very different things. So from New Zealand you are
seeing one thing and from Calif I am seeing another. It is referred to as
targeted ads.

I saw that previously in another European site used by amateur radio
operators.


Jeffrey




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Re: [time-nuts] Upgrading possibilities for more accurate, precise stable mark ii

[Jack Hudler]

If you have a porch or balcony, just drilled a 1/4 inch hole through the
edge of the sliding door frame to handle an external antenna. Hide the wire
in the carpet edge or behind the baseboard.
When you leave just caulk up the holes and no one's the wiser. Most of the
time (well the ones I lived in) apartments have touch up paint kits (or the
paint codes at the local big box) so you can fill nail holes and such for
move out.

I did this at four different apartments and no one ever found it, or if they
did, didn't care. Most of the time I drilled three holes for coaxial cables
to DirecTV and 58532A GPS antenna mounted on the back of the DirecTV antenna
(Note: I never used the thin flat strip to run coax through the door there
was too much static build up. That being said; it is still a viable option
for GPS or DirecTV).





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[time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[Jack Hudler]

Way off topic:

 

I know we have a few Ex-HP employee's here, so this is a long shot.

But I would like to know the what paint was used by HP and there color
values or codes. I know they vary slightly from one lot/day/month/year to
the next.

The reason I ask is, I'm completely redoing a couple pieces of my HP gear. 

Managed to get a great match on the background, sort of an off white
greenish tint (light puke pea green my wife calls it), but the darker one
are eluding me and I suck at color matching. 

 

I'm replacing the panels by scanning in an image and then creating a whole
new one in Photoshop.

I then paint a Hard-Temper Aluminum Foil .003" (McMaster Carr 9012K27) with
the background color (2 part urethane automotive paint).

Then I color sand (err remove all the imperfections) and cover the painted
surface with inkAID (Clear Gloss Precoat II see www.inkaid.com).

Put it in my inkjet printer and viola! A new front panel!

I then cover the panel with a 2 part urethane clear (baked in the oven)
which is then epoxied onto the old damaged one.

All that remains is to cut out the holes with sharp X-Acto knife and
reassemble.

 

However, the whole process of matching colors from scanner to screen to
inkjet (overlaid on a tinted background) really is total guess work without
a calibrated color source and colorimeter to verify the results. This is the
reason for my request.

 

All in all it's a pretty easy process! You don't have to use the two part
urethane stuff, any oil based acrylic will do nicely. 

Like the two part stuff because it very very hard and durable! Cures fast in
an oven! Not to mention you can lay on quite a few coats and then flat sand
and polish to a mirror surface.

(Note: The two part urethanes need a respirator and a good spray booth)

The results are better than new. I even enlarge the text and numbers
slightly for my aging eyes!

 

 

Jack

 

Links: inkAID:  http://www.inkaid1.com/Products/Gloss%20II.html

   Foil: http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagetype=fasttrk

&search=9012K27&resultsContext=ITMLOOKUP&resultsQueryStr=searchstring%3D9012
k27%26tab%3Dfind%26FastTrack%3DTrue%26ftctlgpg%3D%26FlCntxt%3Dfindtab

 

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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[Jack Hudler]

Yes that works on the base color (light green), but when it comes to
printing the graphics on the coated foil I need the RGB values, which they
don't even know what that is. 

Going to try a printer (they know what color is) and see if they use their
colorimeter to get the RGB values.

Thanks!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 7:39 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

Hi Jack:

If you have a piece of equipment that has the desired color, just take it to

you local paint store (Kelly More, etc) where they should have a digital 
colorimeter.  They can then blend a paint that when dry will be the same.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.precisionclock.com
http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Cam

Jack Hudler wrote:
> Way off topic:
> 
>  
> 
> I know we have a few Ex-HP employee's here, so this is a long shot.
> 
> But I would like to know the what paint was used by HP and there color
> values or codes. I know they vary slightly from one lot/day/month/year to
> the next.
> 
> The reason I ask is, I'm completely redoing a couple pieces of my HP gear.

> 
> Managed to get a great match on the background, sort of an off white
> greenish tint (light puke pea green my wife calls it), but the darker one
> are eluding me and I suck at color matching. 
> 
>  
> 
> I'm replacing the panels by scanning in an image and then creating a whole
> new one in Photoshop.
> 
> I then paint a Hard-Temper Aluminum Foil .003" (McMaster Carr 9012K27)
with
> the background color (2 part urethane automotive paint).
> 
> Then I color sand (err remove all the imperfections) and cover the painted
> surface with inkAID (Clear Gloss Precoat II see www.inkaid.com).
> 
> Put it in my inkjet printer and viola! A new front panel!
> 
> I then cover the panel with a 2 part urethane clear (baked in the oven)
> which is then epoxied onto the old damaged one.
> 
> All that remains is to cut out the holes with sharp X-Acto knife and
> reassemble.
> 
>  
> 
> However, the whole process of matching colors from scanner to screen to
> inkjet (overlaid on a tinted background) really is total guess work
without
> a calibrated color source and colorimeter to verify the results. This is
the
> reason for my request.
> 
>  
> 
> All in all it's a pretty easy process! You don't have to use the two part
> urethane stuff, any oil based acrylic will do nicely. 
> 
> Like the two part stuff because it very very hard and durable! Cures fast
in
> an oven! Not to mention you can lay on quite a few coats and then flat
sand
> and polish to a mirror surface.
> 
> (Note: The two part urethanes need a respirator and a good spray booth)
> 
> The results are better than new. I even enlarge the text and numbers
> slightly for my aging eyes!
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Jack
> 
>  
> 
> Links: inkAID:  http://www.inkaid1.com/Products/Gloss%20II.html
> 
>Foil: http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagetype=fasttrk
>
<http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagetype=fasttrk&search=9012K27&resul
>
tsContext=ITMLOOKUP&resultsQueryStr=searchstring%3D9012k27%26tab%3Dfind%26Fa
> stTrack%3DTrue%26ftctlgpg%3D%26FlCntxt%3Dfindtab>
>
&search=9012K27&resultsContext=ITMLOOKUP&resultsQueryStr=searchstring%3D9012
> k27%26tab%3Dfind%26FastTrack%3DTrue%26ftctlgpg%3D%26FlCntxt%3Dfindtab
> 
>  
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[Jack Hudler]

This assumes you have a calibrated scanner and a calibrated printer.
I don't have an IT8.7 target or its equivalent to calibrate the scanner.

Perhaps I should start there heck I'll just try and match it by eye.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of phil
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:20 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes


> Yes that works on the base color (light green), but when it comes to
> printing the graphics on the coated foil I need the RGB values, which they
> don't even know what that is.
>
> Going to try a printer (they know what color is) and see if they use their
> colorimeter to get the RGB values.
>
If you are doing this in Photoshop it's a simple task. First, load the image
of the original scan. Then on your floating toolbar click the left color box
(foreground color), that will open the color picker box. Put your mouse
pointer over the unknown color in the image and left click. Just make sure
you don't have the "only web colors" checked. That color picker box will
then show the RGB values as well as the hex value.

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[Jack Hudler]

OOPS... once I loaded the right ICC profile for the scanner and the printer
it all works very nicely now.
Several orders of magnitude better!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of phil
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:59 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

> This assumes you have a calibrated scanner and a calibrated printer.
> I don't have an IT8.7 target or its equivalent to calibrate the scanner.
>
> Perhaps I should start there heck I'll just try and match it by eye.
>
> Jack

Jack, even if you had the "exact" rgb value of the original color, and if
you intend to duplicate it on an inkjet printer you would have to tweak it
anyway. Printer colors differ by small amounts from brand to brand of ink
and even with same brand in different batches. Within Photoshop you can use
the "replace color" to tweak a given (single) color. Regardless of how you
do it, you have to sample printer output and match (tweak), to even to
calibrate the printer using calibration standards. This gets you very close
unless you have a super cheap scanner and printer and even with cheap
hardware this allows you to accomplish the intended results.
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[Jack Hudler]

John,
LOL, I was busy today doing just that!
Took an image of the IT8/7 target, printed it, scanning it in and
then using a color 'curves' in PhotoShop to adjust the scanned image to the
correct RGB values. Did it in 2 passes and by god it worked spot on every
time.
RGB values: base color 186,186,169  darker infill color 165,165,148
But the interesting thing is this... the darker color is grey
difference of 21. 186-165 = 21 and 169-148 = 21.
So I created a layer in PhotoShop with black for the darker overlays
and then set its Opacity to 21.
Viola! You have this:
http://www.hudler.org/pub/tn/6024Acolored.png
and I print using this on an already painted background:
http://www.hudler.org/pub/tn/6024Aprint.png
This means that HP took the base color and added more lamp black.

All this means is, you don't care about color values at all, just
the difference.
Once you have the base color, the rest is all grey. 
Well to be honest... it's not all grey... you got that dark brown
lot they fancied themselves on in the late 70's and 80's.

Thank you to the group for allowing me to stray far Off Topic!
Jack
PS. Ditto on the GIMP comment.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:08 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

Jack, back to your original problem, the trick to hitting the color spot-on
after
only one or two tries is to use your scanner or even your digicam if you can
keep the
lighting exactly the same, is to use it as a comparator.  Scan the original
color and
save it.  Then generate output on your inkjet printer and scan that.  Look
at the
difference in each color channel and modify your original artwork color
accordingly.
Usually you can nail it after the second try.

This system doesn't rely on the accuracy of the monitor, printer or scanner,
but only
its repeatability.  Repeatability is usually excellent, at least until you
change
cartridges.

I haven't used this technique to duplicate colors on an instrument panel but
I have
used it extensively for conventional graphics arts where I need to match the
color on
a logo or whatnot.

RE: Gimp.  I wouldn't foist that crap off on my worst enemy.  Whomever
conceived that
user interface had to be stoned.  Bad stoned.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?





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Re: [time-nuts] Stuff I bought

[Jack Hudler]

Damn! Active Matrix EPD Prototype Kits! NO I don't need another project!
http://www.eink.com/kits/index.html

If I brought this up the budget meeting, she'd laugh me into next year!






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Re: [time-nuts] GIMP VS PhotoShop

[Jack Hudler]

Well it can get rid of that nasty nose hair on that favorite photo, or
replace that lazy eye with one from the other side :).

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:01 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GIMP VS PhotoShop

Yes, yes, yes... but how will GIMP/Photoshop/VFSH improve my stability and
accuracy? Except for allowing me to fiddle with the graphs to display better
values than I actually acheive.

Cheers,
Magnus






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Re: [time-nuts] Upgrading possibilities for more accurate, precise stable mark ii

[Jack Hudler]

Sorry for the late reply. didn't see this until now.

Seeing only one part of the sky is not an issue for time keeping at the
accuracy you wanted.

I would worry about animals harming my DirecTV or 58532A GPS antenna, when
they were the size of a condor or had teeth like a beaver. Were such animals
around, you'd have other problems to worry about.

I never hung the antenna on or over any part of the apartment. A 5 gallon
bucket and filled with a couple of bags concrete, drive in and level a
galvanized pole, and let it set. Weighs about 160 lbs when all done, and
goes with me or the dumpster when I move. If they don't like that, start
quoting them FCC regulations.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ronald Held
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:17 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 57

i thought of tha balcony option. The balcony as an overhang which
effectively blots out the other half of ths sky not covered by the
building. I cannot hang any antenna over the railing or on it(in my
lease and enofrce;I asked), plus there are birds and squirrels which
would get into it.
Any other suggestions?



> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:25:14 -0600
> From: "Jack Hudler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Upgrading possibilities for more accurate,
>precise  stable mark ii
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> If you have a porch or balcony, just drilled a 1/4 inch hole through the
> edge of the sliding door frame to handle an external antenna. Hide the
wire
> in the carpet edge or behind the baseboard.
> When you leave just caulk up the holes and no one's the wiser. Most of the
> time (well the ones I lived in) apartments have touch up paint kits (or
the
> paint codes at the local big box) so you can fill nail holes and such for
> move out.
>
> I did this at four different apartments and no one ever found it, or if
they
> did, didn't care. Most of the time I drilled three holes for coaxial
cables
> to DirecTV and 58532A GPS antenna mounted on the back of the DirecTV
antenna
> (Note: I never used the thin flat strip to run coax through the door there
> was too much static build up. That being said; it is still a viable option
> for GPS or DirecTV).
>
>
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] FW: sync computer clock ticks

[Jack Hudler]

I use a Truetime NTS-100 for my NTP server.
Just scanned my network of Windows machines at home, all using MS NTP
Client. 3-Vista, 2-2003 Server, 1-XPSP2.
Worst 11 ms, average variance is 2ms.

Jack


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Keith Payea
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:34 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: sync computer clock ticks

The NTP built into Windows is very poor.  A couple of the versions are not
even compliant with the standard, and some servers will reject their
requests.  You have to use better client software, at least for your master
controller.

The CMOS clock only matters when you lose power.  NTP should only use it
once at start-up as a sanity check.

Keith

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Moisan
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:13 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] FW: sync computer clock ticks



-Original Message-
From: David Moisan
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:43 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] sync computer clock ticks

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sync computer clock ticks


>Challenges may be (a) in the Windows world, earlier versions (prior to
>some SP level of XP) have inherent limitations on timekeeping accuracy,

I have considerable experience with Windows networks.  Windows 2000 time
clients are the worst, XP is better and Server 2003 best of all.  Vista and
Windows 2008 are based on the 2003 code.  My workplace is a public access TV
station and our biggest challenge is getting consistent time without being
able to pay for nice things like IRIG displays or GPS clocks.  It doesn't
help that our master controller is Windows 2000 based with a flaky CMOS
clock that was caused by renovations in the room it was installed in.

Symmetricom has a app for Windows networks, LMCheck, that can check for
variance.
http://dtdocs.ntp-systems.com/software/domaintime/instructions/tools/lmcheck
.asp



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Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance Vs Plain Old Accuracy

[Jack Hudler]

Steady boys and girls... 

This discussion would be fun however, I get the feeling it would only supply
a marketing department with more copy.




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Re: [time-nuts] favorite microcontroller module?

[Jack Hudler]

Ah what I wouldn't give for a old TI 99xx BLWP (Bullwhip) Branch and Load
Workspace Pointer... NOT!





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Re: [time-nuts] The Original Time Nut

[Jack Hudler]

Nova also did a show on him. Vaguely remember the title "Search for
Longitude".

Try WGBH at pbs.org

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Original Time Nut

Hi Jan:

In addition to the book by Dava Sobel there's a good movie.  Links on the
Ukiah 
Observatory web page below.

The related problem that was much harder to solve is the Latitude.  For more
on 
that see:  http://www.prc68.com/I/UkiahObs.shtml   I live in Ukiah,
California, 
where one of these observatories is located.





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Re: [time-nuts] The Original Time Nut

[Jack Hudler]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/longitude/






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Re: [time-nuts] GPS-Attached Equipment Lightning Protection

[Jack Hudler]

I found a site that has some great links on grounding.

http://www.n0hr.com/hamradio/152/10/ham_radio0.htm the link to
"Choices and consequences of station lightning protection" 
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground0.htm
is most excellent. I have implemented this (right down to common bonding the
grounding system for the pool equipment).

Jack
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Smith
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 3:40 PM
To: Time Nuts List
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS-Attached Equipment Lightning Protection

Hi Folks

Is anyone implementing any form of lightning protection for their
GPS-attached equipment?

If my antenna gets struck or we have a nearby hit (nearest strike to
ground since we moved here was about 470m away, IIRC), I would like to
limit the damage to the GPS module.

My thought was to stick an optoisolator or similar between the serial
and PPS pins and the level converter (MAX232 equivalent) and power the
GPS module itself with one of those little Meanwell high-isolation DC/DC
converters.  This is very similar to what I am planning to do with the
outside components of my 1-Wire weather system.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing in this respect
(if anything).

Cheers

M


-- 
Matthew Smith
Smiffytech - Technology Consulting & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.smiffytech.com/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy

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Re: [time-nuts] Mounting GPS Antenna on Steel Roof

[Jack Hudler]

I use a Fiber Optic Antenna Link FOL-100 from Truetime. However, I don't
know of anything else out there does something similar. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Smith
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:36 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Mounting GPS Antenna on Steel Roof

Quoth Rob Kimberley at 2008-03-04 19:29...
> Height of antenna is not important, but being clear of obstructions and
> large metallic objects are. Can you mount it on a pole at the end of the
> garden? 

I can, but the end of the garden is some 50 metres from the house, which
brings back my concern of excessive cable lengths.

We're in a bit of a weird situation - it's a rural location, but there
are sheds, water tanks and all sorts dotted around and cables can only
really be run along (steel) fences as vehicular access is required all
around.  (Think of a farm and you wouldn't be far off.)

I had thought about putting the time server in the big shed and running
an underground Ethernet cable (this is a fairly reasonable proposition)
until the reflection issue came up - the shed (also steel) has a North
to South roof, so the problem would be even worse.

Cheers

M

-- 
Matthew Smith
Smiffytech - Technology Consulting & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.smiffytech.com/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy

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[time-nuts] FTS-4060 with date of Apr-2000, looks cherry on GovLiquidation

[Jack Hudler]

Just showed up;

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=861896&convertTo=USD



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[time-nuts] FS: HP 5334B Options 010 030 H05

[Jack Hudler]

I hope this is appropriate.

As a courtesy I thought I would give Time-nuts bagsy's on this. Just reading and
answering my occasional question has prevented me from making a few impetuous
cesium purchases. Which I have yet to find.

For Sale:
Very very clean still in calibration from Navy Metcal due 11/20/06.
After 24 hours warm up, I somewhat verified calibration against NTS-100 1PPS,
its rock steady at 1. with the occasional flicker to 1.0001.
Given the NT100 Osc Drift is 4.675 x 10-06 per day and the 5334B is 5x10-10 per
day... go figure! :)

Would like to get $150 for it, but I'll consider any reasonable offer. Questions
welcome, if you want pictures I'll be more than happy to provide them.

Thanks,
Jack Hudler



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Re: [time-nuts] Low Cost GP-IB PCI card?

[Jack Hudler]

You might wish to check out 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp_agilent_equipment
Subject: HP-IB vs GP-IB

Might give you a research track to start on.

Jack


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 4:33 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low Cost GP-IB PCI card?

Glenn Powers said the following on 07/08/2006 05:27 PM:
> Can anyone recommend a low cost GP-IB PCI card (and cable) that works  
> with FreeBSD and/or linux?

The National Instruments GPIB-PCI card goes for around $200 on eBay and
works well with the Linux-gpib driver.

John

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Re: [time-nuts] OT: 01005 Soldering Was: Low Cost GP-IB PCI card?

[Jack Hudler]

I have 2 questions below for your colleague.

I hand solder 01005 as well from time to time, not anything production mind you.
Though I've never met or heard of anyone else doing this by hand; though I'm
sure there are a few, this is a the first I've run across.

I've been using the poke and hope reflow method which give me 80% success
without rework.
I use an X/Y/Z/A pick and place setup (air pickup) I built; right now it's now
manual due to time constraints.  Make my own pickups from pipette's that are
heated and drawn together forming 2 channels, one for vacuum and the other
detects pickup (though I don't have this working very well but, not a problem in
manual).

Could you ask your colleague what soldering station he/she uses?
Has he/she considered air pickup and if so what keeps them from using it?

Thanks,
Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 6:26 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low Cost GP-IB PCI card?

Hi John,

May I only add that a dear friend and colleague of mine does 01005 soldering
by hand under microscope. Fortunatly we don't have to use them yeat.

For those that don't know the issue about 01005, let's just say they are
tiny as hell and weighs in at 30 microgram each. If your tweecer isn't at the
same potential it flies away on you if you don't approach it from the propper
angle. All that in a wellgrounded and ESD handling lab.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 3325B Function Generator and GPS based frequencycontrol

[Jack Hudler]

Here's one that sold for $102
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31869022




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Re: [time-nuts] New frequency standard, Mercury better than Cesium?

[Jack Hudler]

Now if they can just make that fit inside a soup can and cost less than $300;
we'd all have our own Mercury Standard. :)



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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and HP-5370A question

[Jack Hudler]

Jose,

After you verified this thing works:

The back cracked support looks like something JBWeld can handle. So do the front
supports even if they break off trying to reposition. JBWeld is incredibly
strong and you'll find it in auto parts stores and some home centers.

If a more rigid support is required drill out the mounting screw hole in the
broken part to the diameter of the hole in the chassis (8-32?) completely
through. Place the broken part back in and clamp in place to the original
location. Get a drill for the appropriate threads, place some tape masking tape
around the drill to center it in the hole previously drilled and drill it.
Tap the threads. Put some JBWeld on it and screw it together. 
Drill press would make this easier.

Another solution is a bit more trouble than it worth IMO; torch in some aluminum
solder. Just be sure to bevel the edges a bit and apply per instructions.
  
BTW: Who ever prepared this for shipping didn't know what they were doing. I
can't believe someone would make so many mistakes!

Jack




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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Distribution amplifier

[Jack Hudler]

Here's an eBay search I built from Toms list.
(58512A,58516A,58517A,58535A,58536A,58504A,58532A) ("HP", "AGILENT",
"HP/AGILENT", "HEWLETT PACKARD", "Symmetricom")

I researched that 58535A Glenn mentioned; they've been trying to sell it since
May with no takers.

I was thinking of putting up a FOL-100 fiber optic antenna link, with fiber and
connector.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Van Baak
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 3:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Distribution amplifier

> In need of a GPS distribution amplifier. Any ideas? (Ebay isn't good for
this)

Magnus,

Over the years I've picked up all mine on eBay; good
ones by HP/Agilent, or Symmetricom. Ignore the high
fixed-priced sellers; if you're patient you can get them
for as little as $10 to $20 per port. Many of these are
still new (telecom surplus). Search by P/N:

58512A (2-port)
58516A (4-port)
58517A (8-port)

58535A (2-port)
58536A (4-port)

58504A antenna (puck)
58532A antenna (cone)

/tvb



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[time-nuts] Service Manual for Truetime NTS-100

[Jack Hudler]

Does such manual exist?



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Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Graphical Clock

[Jack Hudler]

12 rows 30 columns...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:50 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Graphical Clock

Not quite what I was expecting! 

Try the attached, which I found and modified for my own use a few years
back. Works OK in Internet Explorer, but not in Firefox - need to check
settings.

Rob 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rex
Sent: 30 September 2006 07:58
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interesting Graphical Clock

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:46:30 +0100, "Rob Kimberley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Tried it on both Internet Explorer and Firefox. Get lots of coloured 
>circles but no clock.
>
>Rob K

Look very closly in the lower right corner. I see some time info.

I don't get it much either. Cool though.


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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Analyzer on Ebay

[Jack Hudler]

Dang it... so much good stuff... so little money

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 3:12 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Oscillator Analyzer on Ebay

 
Hello Fellow time nuts,
 
I thought this might be of interest to some of you, if not please  accept my 
apologies:
 
I have a Wavecrest high-end SRT-3000 Jitter/Phase-Noise/PLL/BERT  analyzers 
for sale that I got from Credence as surplus, and I am listing it  on Ebay 
tomorrow morning. The SRT-3000 is the same as their SIA3000 which costs  about 
$90.000 today, but using an external LCD instead of internal LCD. I  configured 
the unit to work with an external monitor, mouse, and keyboard right  out of 
the box. It also includes a NI-488.2 GPIB controller and NI-488.2  software. The

unit was totally unused, original packing. I will keep one, and  sell the 
others.
 
These units are fantastic, they have 200 Femtoseconds internal hardware  
resolution. Great for measuring Oscillator jitter from 0.4Hz up to 1700MHz. This

particular unit has about 2.4ps noise floor, that's 2.4E-012 right out of the  
box!
 
They include timing measurements such as PLL, Datacom, jitter, Phase Noise,  
BERT Bathtub curves, and an internal 1700MHz Oscilloscope feature. There is an 
 external 100MHz ultra-low-noise time-base output connector in the back of 
the  unit as well.
 
While the unit can do phase-noise FFT, it's really a (time-domain)  
time-intervall jitter measurement unit. This is what makes it different  from a 
real-time sampling scope or spectrum/phase-noise analyzer: you can  measure time

intervall jitter on signals from 0.4Hz to 1700MHz with  200 femtosecond
resolution.
 
The Jitter histogram feature is great to see if your ultra-stable  Oscillator 
has any deterministic, or just random noise on it, and just how much  that 
random/DJ noise is. The unit measures and displays TJ, RJ, and DJ in real  time 
using their patented "Tail Fit" algorithm. The unit has Visi version 7  
software installed and works perfectly.
 
Search Ebay tomorrow for "SRT-3000" and you can find it. It was over  
$100.000 in 2003 and the reserve is only $499. That's less than just what the  
internal National Instruments PCI-GPIB card is worth I think.
 
bye,
Said

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Re: [time-nuts] Austron Model 1210D-03

[Jack Hudler]

Well take a look at this before you tear it down.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Austron-Inc-1210D-03-Crystal-Clock_W0QQitemZ7628363277QQihZ0
17QQcategoryZ7286QQcmdZViewItem


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Nick Soefje
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:38 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Austron Model 1210D-03

I have an Austron 1210D-03 that has been in my possession since 1990.
I did some initial testing with it during my Electronics BA, but not being
involved at the levels you are, I no longer have need for it.
I started to take it apart yesterday to see what components I could salvage,
but decided to see if I could put it to better use and make a few dollars at
the same time.

- Does anyone know what this might be worth (condition specific of course)?
- Would anyone here be interested in the unit?
- I thought about posting it on Craigs List or eBay, but ran across your
group and thought I would stop here first.

I hope it is OK to post this type of request/questions in your forum, I read
the general rules and did not see any text on the sale of items.

I can provide more information if needed and photos as well.

If there is no interest, I will tear the unit down for scrap parts.

Thanks and best regards,
Nick Soefje


-- 
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
==
If there was any logic in this world, it would be men who ride side-saddle,
not women.
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Re: [time-nuts] Re Certified Time Nut Certificate

[Jack Hudler]

Scan one at RBG 600 DPI or better; I wee what I can do.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Doug Millar
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 9:35 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Re Certified Time Nut Certificate


Hi John,
 Ok. Great idea.  We should make up a certificate that looks 
like an NIST cert. that certifies that if we have a working 
Cesium  or hydrogen maser standard or two or more standards that can 
be traceable to NIST, you can become a Certified  Time Nut. It will 
look nice hanging over a person's maser.
  Of course we could have levels as well. Master Nut (Own a 
maser or 5071) and then levels like primary, secondary and tertiary. 
The lowest could be  having just a GPS source or rubidium.  What do 
you think? Maybe we could come up with something interesting. Anyone 
want to make them up?
 Doug



At 05:47 AM 11/4/2006, you wrote:
>Doug Millar said the following on 11/03/2006 09:57 PM:
>
> >  Should we be considered "certified" time nuts? or
> > just "certifiable"?
>
>Depends on whether you're traceable to NIST...
>
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 28, Issue 5

[Jack Hudler]

If you can combine Water with Cesium/Rubidium to make a functional exothermic
clock... you would rate a certifiable award in some category.
Extra classification points if you can contain it in an hour glass.

I'm sure all would agree the resulting display would be quite spectacular if not
an explosive demonstration of a technological leap... if you get my meaning. ;)

Jack Hudler
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Clive Green
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:13 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 28, Issue 5

Certificated Time Nut (Clive Green) certainly a wavemeter should count, so
should Lecher Lines, not sure about a calibrated candle or sun dial (maybe
if its very nice) but not hour glass / egg timer. Really well aged tuning
fork  OK but not the bowl of water with a hole in it gismo. If GPS or Rb
are to be the lowest these very important steps certainly drop off the
bottom.

Clive Green
Managing Director
Quartzlock (UK) Ltd
Gothic, Plymouth Road, Totnes, DEVON. TQ9 5LH
Tel: - +44 (0) 1803 862 062 Fax: - +44 (0) 1803 867 962 Mob: - +44 (0) 7714
246 062
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  www.quartzlock.com
<http://www.quartzlock.com>

PRECISE TIME & FREQUENCY FOR TELECOMS, METROLOGY & CALIBRATION
STANDARDS - DISTRIBUTION - MEASUREMENT




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[time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is online at hparchive.com

[Jack Hudler]

I just finished and posted the 10811A/B OP/SRV to hparchives.com.

 

http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf

 

Enjoy,

Jack

 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is online at hparchive.com

[Jack Hudler]

Thanks John, I wonder if the group has any requests. 

I'm working on a personal project to scan a considerable archive of
documentation. It has required me to write a lot of custom OCR software and I
thought I would try it on my favorite source first.

What's the most requested or desired manual or manuals?

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Miles
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com

Re: [time-nuts] HP 5060A option 004Wow, that is a NICE scan.  Thanks for
that contribution.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineat hparchive.com

[Jack Hudler]

If someone has that I would do it. If its glue bound I'll need to shear the
binding off to release the pages from each signature.

Right now the software needs another set of rules to create a document. I'm sure
Austron manuals are significantly different.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:02 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineat
hparchive.com

Not HP, but it seems that manuals for Austron gear are always hard to 
find.  At the moment, I'd like to find one for the 1210D portable clock.

John




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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com AND HP 5501B manual.

[Jack Hudler]

Sheeesh! 
Actually I use the 5501B for its intended purpose... I'm a bit of a precision
nut. Never seen an Allan variance plot of one.

I prefer 473.6057788309637 THz :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Robert Atkinson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:55 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com
AND HP 5501B manual.

Hi Jack,

Great scan!

I was also most interested to see you had scanned the manual for another
HP reference that I have - the 5501B. With an accuracy of 1x10-7 and
stability of 2x10-8 it's not that great but the frequency is 473612.23
GHz! For those who have not caught on yet, the 5501B is a stabilised
laser with about 1mW of 632.991372nm (red) output.

 

Many thanks,

Robert G8RPI.

 

 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Hudler
Sent: 06 November 2006 19:31
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is online
athparchive.com

 

I just finished and posted the 10811A/B OP/SRV to hparchives.com.

 

http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf

 

Enjoy,

Jack


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com AND HP 5501B manual.

[Jack Hudler]

Hmm this sounds like YAP! (yet another project). I've have 6 HP5517B's (new
version of the 5501B) who output are to low to use. Yet they will phase lock.

Scale this up to 4.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 5:22 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com
AND HP 5501B manual.

From: Dr Bruce Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com
AND HP 5501B manual.
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:25:44 +1300
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> To measure the Allan variance you need at least 2 (preferably more) 
> stabilised lasers and a mixer (photodiode) plus a suitable amplifier to 
> produce a beat signal for analysis.
> The beat frequency may be as high as 100 MHz with a pair of 5501s 
> (frequency/wavelength accuracy of 0.1ppm) so the photodiode and 
> associated amplifier will need adequate bandwidth.

It seems like three 5501s, optical splitters/joiners and a fairly normal
counters should allow for a three-cornered hat and then should the Allan
variance and friends be possible to measure.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com AND HP 5501B manual.

[Jack Hudler]

Hmm. I think I have all the parts for this. Except the programmable polarizer.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 7:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com
AND HP 5501B manual.

From: Dr Bruce Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is onlineathparchive.com
AND HP 5501B manual.
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:56:38 +1300
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > From: Dr Bruce Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811A/B OCXO OP/SRV manual is
onlineathparchive.com AND HP 5501B manual.
> > Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 11:25:44 +1300
> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >   
> >> To measure the Allan variance you need at least 2 (preferably more) 
> >> stabilised lasers and a mixer (photodiode) plus a suitable amplifier to 
> >> produce a beat signal for analysis.
> >> The beat frequency may be as high as 100 MHz with a pair of 5501s 
> >> (frequency/wavelength accuracy of 0.1ppm) so the photodiode and 
> >> associated amplifier will need adequate bandwidth.
> >> 
> >
> > It seems like three 5501s, optical splitters/joiners and a fairly normal
> > counters should allow for a three-cornered hat and then should the Allan
> > variance and friends be possible to measure.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> >   
> Things to watch out for when attempting to mix optical frequencies.
> 
> Orthogonally linearly polarised beams incident on a photodiode (or other 
> photodetector) will not produce a beat note.

Which is quite natural IF you think about it.

> A polariser in front of the diode with its transmission axis aligned so 
> that the transmitted beam intensities are approximately equal for each 
> of the 2  orthogonally polarised beams will allow a beat note to be 
> produced. For identical incident beam intensities the polariser 
> transmission axis will be at 45 degrees to the plane of polarisation of 
> either beam.
> 
> The angle (in radians) between the 2 beams has to be much smaller than 
> /l/d./
> where /l /is the wavelength and /d/ is the effective detector diameter.
> e.g. when /d/ = 1mm and /l/ = 633nm
> then the angle between the 2 beams must be << 2 arc minutes.

Yes, but if they where being brought together in a fused optical fibre
splitt/merge and one of the beam is adjusted through a mouse-ear assembly or
programable polarizer (fancy mouse-ear), then that problem wouln't be that much
of a problem? I think I have a bunch of suitable PIN diodes lying around doing
nothing good. But then again, I don't have a suitable set of lasers to check,
unless you count the DWDM lasers also lying around. :)

Thanks for the heads-up.

Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] 5328A Option 10 on eBay

[Jack Hudler]

If someone has an HP 5328A and needs the Option 10 OCXO for it, there one up on
eBay with the interface board attached.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290051986444





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Re: [time-nuts] Difference between these two oscillator boards?

[Jack Hudler]

It would help more to know what the part numbers are, this at least tells us
what equipment they came from and features that oscillator might have used.
The first one looks like it has an external source for disciplining, but this is
just a guess.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:25 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Difference between these two oscillator boards?

I was hoping someone here could tell me the difference between these two
boards (aside from their physical dimensions are different - I can see
that).

I know they are used in conjunction with the HP 10544A / 10811 boards when
inside certain equipment. Is one just a newer revision? Is one better than
the other? I can find plenty of info on the oscillators, but zilch on the
adapter boards.

http://www.rabel.org/pics/10544A/Board_1.jpg
http://www.rabel.org/pics/10544A/Board_2.jpg


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[time-nuts] 10811D's on eBay

[Jack Hudler]

Anyone else besides me pick up one of these yet?
I'd be interested in what you found.

Thanks,
Jack



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Re: [time-nuts] 10811D's on eBay

[Jack Hudler]

Another GPSDO for me OR
It's easy to add a Web Server (PINK) to a Parallax Javelin (or Basic) stamp
module. 

So I think I'll start an NTP server project... why? Cause my NTS100 will end of
life itself by 2010 due to a firmware issue (If I recall, please correct me if
I'm wrong or you've managed to burn a bunch of EEPROMS with the new firmware).

Think it would be a very neat little project!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:51 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811D's on eBay

I'm assuming you are referring to the person selling all those
10811-60155's? I bought one in the first go-round, still waiting it to
arrive. I also bought a 10811-60105 for $25 (best offer) that someone posted
recently. :)

Has yours arrived yet?

I'm still debating what to do with them, I might put one in my 5328A for a
while, and use the other for a GPSDO.


> Anyone else besides me pick up one of these yet?
> I'd be interested in what you found.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack



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Re: [time-nuts] hp-9825

[Jack Hudler]

I found this, refine your search a bit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230061973825&ssPageName=ADME:
B:SS:US:1

Here the search I use to pick up on these:

(9825,9825A,9825B) ("HP","AGILENT","HP/AGILENT","HEWLETT PACKARD") -printer

Jack
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of tom
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 8:56 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] hp-9825

picked up an old working 9825a that does math and seems to run. getting some of
the plugins to run the hpib buss and real time clock. now i have the problem of
remembering how to program. does anyone have a operating/program manual for this
calculator. the model number seems to be 09825-9. have tried ebay and google
and did find a listing in canada but just a quick reference.  any help would be
great.
tom[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811D's on eBay

[Jack Hudler]

I looked at the NetBurner stuff, very nice. They have all the protocols
including NTP/SNTP.
http://www.netburner.com/products/development_kits/network_development.html#kit_
price

Also I took my NTS-100 apart for some nud3 pictures and noticed that has plenty
of room and power for an OCXO and discipline. 

I also found the jumper to change the 1PPS to 10 MHz (Pretty it is NOT!!) but my
5334A took it as an external OSC just fine.

Don't get me wrong the NTS-100 Osc Phase typically floats around 1e-8 but this
is time-nuts! Got to do better than that!

Looks like a path to better performance even though it's short term.

Comments on this? Anyone have a low noise 10MHz distribution circuit?

Jack


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811D's on eBay

I was about to mention, but you beat me to it...

I've just finished modifying a stack of Soekris net4501s using
Poul-Henning's hardware mods and his nanoBSD configuration that runs
from flash card.  Details on the hardware mods are at
http://www.febo.com/time-freq/ntp/soekris/index.html.  I still need to
do some work on the page, but it seems to accurately describe how to
enable the high-resolution timer.

I've also used my Clock-Block clock synthesizer
(http://www.tapr.org/kits_clock-block.html) to replace the onboard
oscillator in the net4501.  Mine are all clocked from one of the 5061A
cesiums, and get their PPS signals from various time sources in the lab.

The data is still very new because some of the servers have only been
running for a short time, but I have ntp performance plots of these
boxes at http://www.febo.com/time-freq/ntp/stats/index.html.

John


Jason Rabel said the following on 12/06/2006 07:02 PM:
> For a web/ntp server, you might want to look at the Soekris Net4501. There
> are some 4501 specific flags you can use in FreeBSD and some neat things
> that PHK has done to make it a very accurate NTP device.
>  
> 
>> Another GPSDO for me OR
>> It's easy to add a Web Server (PINK) to a Parallax Javelin (or Basic)
> stamp
>> module. 
>>
>> So I think I'll start an NTP server project... why? Cause my NTS100 will
> end of
>> life itself by 2010 due to a firmware issue (If I recall, please correct
> me if
>> I'm wrong or you've managed to burn a bunch of EEPROMS with the new
> firmware).
>> Think it would be a very neat little project!
> 
> 
> ___
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> 


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[time-nuts] Specs on a CTI K1525AA oscillator

[Jack Hudler]

The oscillator in the Truetime NTS-100 is a CTI K1525AA 10MHz.

I want to see if I can drive a IsoTemp OCXO134-10 or 10811D directly but I need
some spec in order to determine if the DAC has enough range to handle it.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks,

Jack Hudler

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Re: [time-nuts] Time Nuts at PTTI this past week

[Jack Hudler]

Yeah just think of the environmental impact or the impact of the environmental
protection agency; which ever is greater. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Didier Juges
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 5:41 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time Nuts at PTTI this past week

Don't do that over my house :-)

Didier

Tom Van Baak wrote:
> Yes, and instead of dropping sand to keep aloft
> over time I could drop the lead acid batteries as I
> use them up!
>
> /tvb
>
>
>   


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[time-nuts] Best GPS 1PPS Accuracy

[Jack Hudler]

Can someone explain the accuracy numbers that are represented in specs for GPS
receivers?

 

I find that Trimble says the Resolution T
(http://www.trimble.com/resolutiont.shtml) has 15 ns (1 Sigma) like the M12+.

 

So I guess the real question is; are you comparing apples to apples when the
standard deviation (Sigma) is specified?

 

Another question is; what's the most accurate GPS receiver module available? I
realize this is only as accurate at the antenna system, but I'll save a
multipath discussion for later.

 

Thanks,

Jack

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 with Brooks Shera's GPS locking circuit

[Jack Hudler]

If I'm totally missing something here please correct and enlighten me. 

On the subject of Brooks Shera's design, the one thing that troubles me is the
use of a 24 MHz oscillator to count the width of the 1PPS signal. 
This yields a precision of 4.16e-8, but does it really? 
This oscillator is uncontrolled and any drift would exist as noise that would
have to be filtered (He uses a software low pass filter).

Question: Why not multiply the VCXO or OCXO output by 5 or 10 and run that into
24 or 32 bit counter? OR just sample the counter on every 10th PPS?

Thank,
Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Richard H McCorkle
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:44 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 with Brooks Shera's GPS locking circuit

Hi Brendan,
I would contact Brooks Shera directly before you go any further as the span
of his controller is set at 4.5e-8 and the maximum span on an LPRO is about
5e-9. He can reprogram the controller by changing the filter gain and loop
time so it is about 8X more sensitive so it will work with a direct
connection to the LPRO. I have a controller modified with the filter gain is
scaled up 1 step and the loop time set to 120 seconds and this works well
with an LPRO attached directly to the DAC.
Enjoy!
Richard

- Original Message - 
From: "Brendan Minish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 with Brooks Shera's GPS locking circuit


> Hi I am looking for info on using the Brooks Shera GPS-VCXO Controller
> with an EFRATOM LPRO-101?
>
> I currently have it locking an old and unknown single oven Xtal
> oscillator this is working as well but I hope to replace this with the
> LPRO-101
>
> Has anyone any suggestions as to how best to choose the correct values
> of R5 and R6 for use with the LPRO-101 C field control input.
>
>
> 73
> Brendan EI6IZ
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] motorola oncore descriptions

[Jack Hudler]

Ah I too wondered about the 10kHz output and wince it came.
One phase lock circuit being sold on eBay uses this by dividing it down to 1
PPS.
Perhaps he wanted to save one 74HC390. 

Still I wonder what the precision cost is?

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Didier Juges
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:09 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] motorola oncore descriptions

You have to be careful with the 10 kHz output. The output is only 
updated once per second (the 10,000 pulses in the 1 second period are 
equally spaced), so you still need the same filter as if you were using 
the 1 PPS output. I am not sure what the 10kHz output was intended to, 
but it's not that great of an advantage for phase locking a XO.

The only advantage I could see is if you are using a Jupiter to 
discipline a very lousy crystal oscillator, you could speed-up the lock 
by using a faster filter, then switch to a slower filter once lock is 
achieved. However, even though you will achieve lock faster, the 
precision will not be better (probably worse) than if you had a good 
OCXO to start with.

Didier KO4BB

Jason Rabel wrote:
>> Now, about the Rockwell Jupiter 8 boards...
>>
>> The TU30D140 is 5V powered (Antenna can be passive, 5V or 12V)
>> The TU30D160 is 3.3V powered (Antenna can be passive, 5V or 12V)
>>
>> Both boards have 10 KHz output. That's about it...
>> 
>
> Maybe I should clarify that one statement. I didn't mean they only have
> 10KHz outputs, I just meant that about it for your question. They also have
> a 1PPS output.
>
> With the 10KHz output you can build a poor man's GPS stabilized oscillator
> like here:
>
> http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm
>
> I actually just got in the parts for to build one of these the other day,
> probably going to try and assemble today. I'm using a Millren 5MHz VC OCXO
> that I got a while back. The advantage to the above design is the simplicity
> (and cost).
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] motorola oncore descriptions

[Jack Hudler]

That's essentially the same circuit.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:07 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] motorola oncore descriptions

I haven't looked at the one on eBay, but I did find the following example (I
think I posted a link earlier today).

http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm

I have the parts sitting on my desk, I just haven't had the time to assemble
it yet. I'll report back with some numbers once I get it up and running. I
don't expect it to be anything to write a paper about, but a fun little
weekend project. Like I said before one advantage to it is the cost. The
parts list for me (minus a project box & oscillator) were probably about
$10-$15.  I don't think you could get much cheaper than that for a quick
assembly with and no custom programming.

Jason

> Ah I too wondered about the 10kHz output and wince it came.
> One phase lock circuit being sold on eBay uses this by dividing it down to
1
> PPS.
> Perhaps he wanted to save one 74HC390. 
> 
> Still I wonder what the precision cost is?
> 
> Jack


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Re: [time-nuts] Best GPS 1PPS Accuracy

[Jack Hudler]

Many thanks for the long post! 
You validated many of my concerns about the current state of amateur GPSDO's.

Thanks again,
Jack


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Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 with Brooks Shera's GPS locking circuit

[Jack Hudler]

Bruce,

Can you describe further your idea about phase detection using an ADC.

Who produces the sinewave from the filtered counter? 

(Thinking out loud) Using a 10MHz oscillator as an example:
Is this dividing the clock down to (say) 1 MHz and using a square->sine
conversion then sampling the phase angle at the 1PPS transition? The accuracy of
square->sine conversion appears as another source of error.

Perhaps the MAX9382 (http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1130)
could help with the problem of locking to the undesired harmonic.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:52 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 with Brooks Shera's GPS locking circuit

  
The Brooks Shera circuit relies on the 24 MHz oscillator not being 
locked to the OCXO or the PPS signal so that (in the absence of 
injection locking) averaging the measured time interval gives an 
unbiased estimate of the true value. Using a higher speed oscillator to 
measure the time interval would be advantageous with the more accurate 
GPS timing receivers currently available. If you have an M12+ or MTM 
timing receiver and a rubidium oscillator the Brooks Shera technique is 
not optimum you can easily achieve a performance that is 1-2 orders of 
magnitude better with a less complex phase detector. The Brooks Shera 
circuit has a single shot resolution of 41.6 nanosec which may be up to 
10 times worse than the jitter in the PPS output of a good timing 
receiver (after correcting for any sawtooth error - in software of 
course, to avoid any additional noise and errors caused by hardware 
correction).

The phase detector method employed is the digital equivalent of a 
classical sampling phase detector with a linear phase detection 
characteristic. A phase lock loop employing a sampling phase detector 
will lock to a harmonic of the sampling frequency, which in this case is 
1Hz. It is therefore necessary to divide down the OCXO (or other high 
stability oscillator) frequency to a value such that the efc tuning 
range of the oscillator precludes locking to the undesired harmonic. 
Unfortunately a phase detector with a linear characteristic can 
sometimes allow the phase lock loop to lock to a frequency which is not 
a harmonic of the sampling frequency (in this case frequencies like 
17/13, 12/11 Hz etc.).

A phase detector with a sinusoidal characteristic (such as an ADC 
sampling a sinewave produced by filtering the output of a counter 
clocked by the OCXO) avoids the problem of non harmonic locking and 
eliminates most of the digital circuitry.

A loop time constant of around 120 seconds is far too short for 
obtaining the optimum performance from a good rubidium standard, as the 
loop will degrade the rubidium standard to an accuracy of around 35E-10 
(with a 41.6ns single shot measurement resolution) when a good rubidium 
standard is capable of a considerably higher stability than this.

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking For Info On A Kode/Odetics 375-642 Time DisplayUnit

[Jack Hudler]

I flipped em... didn't free run for me.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 4:06 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking For Info On A Kode/Odetics 375-642 Time DisplayUnit

Now you know why I was wanting a poor man's IRIG-B generator, which I'm
having issues getting the audio drivers to compile on my Geode box, so until
I fix that I can't use the other file from the NTP distro.

Anyhow, I got a Kode/Odetics 375-642 Time Display Unit. Basically it just
displays the time via an IRIG-B input on a nice bright LED display. It works
great, I have no complaints, but I'm just curious about 3 little dip
switches on the board (4th picture in URL below). 

http://www.rabel.org/archives/Images/Kode_Odetics_375-642_Time_Display/

Does anyone have one of these or have a manual? I'm curious what those
switches do. I'm hoping maybe one will allow the clock to free-run when the
IRIG input is disconnected, right now it freezes if you unplug it. Also
maybe a 12/24hr conversion? I dunno...



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Re: [time-nuts] Failure mode in GPS receivers

[Jack Hudler]

A nick in the jacket allowed UV to break down fiber optic. 
One receiver had failed and the other kept going for a while longer until I
sused what was up. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of geo
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 3:10 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Failure mode in GPS receivers


oh yes .

1) Waterlevel in GPS antenna's "hermetic" too high ... the ice inside the 
   "hermetic" was melting down ( Hi Magnus ;-) )
2) Coaxial cable damaged, due to nice little pecking birds :-(

Regards,

Martin


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Re: [time-nuts] Looking For Info On A Kode/Odetics375-642TimeDisplayUnit

[Jack Hudler]

That's exactly what I use mine for.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 4:59 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking For Info On A
Kode/Odetics375-642TimeDisplayUnit

That's okay, I just thought someone out there might have known off the top
of their head, it's not a big deal.

There is I believe a 2MHz oscillator there next to the switches, that's why
I thought maybe it could free-run.

I haven't probed those E1,E2, and E3 pads next to the switch yet, I'll
probably do that tomorrow.

I didn't expect a lot from this display, I just wanted something nice and
bright that I could look up and see the time. ;) The tiny little LCD on my
TrueTime can't really be read from a distance.

Jason





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Re: [time-nuts] PC clock comparison software?

[Jack Hudler]

I'll overlook the Windows bashing and try to answer your question.

The architecture of the PC and Windows prohibits anything (except an NMI) from
interrupting time keeping. Time is set in the Windows Kernel by the 2 user level
API's SetSystemTime and SetSystemTimeAdjustment. The later is use to compensate
for the drift of the XO by applying an adjustment on each clock interrupt.
Normally SetSystemTimeAdjustment is only used by the NTP client or Directory
Services in W32Time if it is running otherwise its disabled and the kernel
attempts to calculate and adjustment based on SetSystemTime calls. The code is a
heavy filtered and weird implementation of what may be an Allan deviation (I
only briefly looked at it 5 years ago). 

Windows 9x platform doesn't perform this adjustment however any good NTP client
checking in regularly should alleviate this. 

My point in telling you this is; your problem is with the motherboard; not
Windows. Linux (or your OS of choice) would not do any better.

As I see it there are 2 solutions: (chime in if someone see's others)

1. An NTP time server (sounds like you have this) that's synced to GPS. See
message thread ([time-nuts] Vendors of time sync hardware) which all machines
routinely check in with. 100ms is easy here.
This is what we use at Lone Star Observatory.

2. TAPR Clock-Block http://www.tapr.org/kits_clock-block.html that you can use
with the reference signal, ideally from a disciplined source.

Using the above method (1) our scope can cold start to acquisition of target
without indexing to a known star. Further we divide down the reference signal to
provide an accurate 50ms timer interrupt for the motion base and watchdog.

Option 2 would no doubt provide the most direct and stable clock but you still
need an disciplined source for precision and an NTP source for accuracy
(obviously you'd want this together).  This seems a bit extreme for your use
because it sounds like they are just PC's to you and not part of telescope
control.

Also there is nothing that prevents you from getting your own NTP timer server,
IT need never know and I doubt they care.

Jack Hudler


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Charles S. Osborne
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:02 PM
To: Time-Nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] PC clock comparison software?

I have a query. Does anyone have a favorite network time sync test software?

Here's my situation. Being at a radio and optical observatory, most
everything we do has varying degrees of time stamp criticality on the stored
data. While I could get obsessive compulsive and try to get everything
sync'd every few seconds with the Z3816A/GPSCon server, much of the data is
quite usable at 100ms or less time accuracy. I'd like better of course.

But for the moment let's just say I need to evaluate where we are, and
improve from that. Most PCs sync to our time server frequently. But PC
clocks being the cheap crap that they are, I need to have some reasonable
way of measuring how quickly they drift. ... particularly if Windows is
experiencing Attention Deficit Syndrome and forgetting to run the core
applications while they obsessively go speak to Father Bill Gates for words
of wisdom or check in with the Mother Ship or whatever it is that they seem
to need an Internet connection to do.

For test purposes I've occassionally set the time server polling routine to
once a day and seen 20 minute errors on delinquent PCs. Other PCs might stay
within a minute. If I try to run the Net-time routine every minute then I
increase the chance that the time server will be busy and not respond. A
goodly handful of these PCs are chugging along quite happily running small
applications on Pentium-166s /Win98se with limited memory. So going to XP or
Linux is not an option in half the PCs. No time, No $$. All the normal
educational, not for profit, zero budget reasons.

Is there a small application that could log the time errors when the system
clock gets set? This would help me decide how often the time needs to update
and what my time error penalty would be if I can't run it that often. I know
temperature will even enter into it as well since several PCs are in
unheated buildings.

It also would be nice if it could log when the time server does not respond.
Some applications respond very ingratiously when the time server won't
answer their query. They hang the program or never resync with the network
even when it comes back. But I can't prove that this is happening. Naturally
our IT folks say the network is running flawlessly. But I'm not that
gulible.

One other idea is to have a central PC poll the outlying PCs for their time
and compare to network time. That reverse net-time sync approach would be
even more useful since the PCs are spread all over many buildings, some a km
of fiber away, and checking/downloading/evaluating their indivi

Re: [time-nuts] PC clock comparison software?

[Jack Hudler]

The Timer/Clock interrupt is IRQ 0 no other interrupt has a higher priority,
therefore this interrupt is rarely missed. If it were missed then interrupts
would have to be turned off longer the 110ms (2 times the clock rate) which is
an enormous amount of time and due no doubt to an improperly written device
driver or faulty motherboard/card.

Having said this; a device driver writer would not have interrupts turned off
for long anyway, this is a bit heavy handed on a system. That's what IRQL are
for.

99.9% of ISR routines are microsecond range. So this is not a source of lost
timer interrupts.

Time is extremely important on a telescope (which why I'm going to try the TAPR
Clock Block when I get time) and I've studied this issue of lost timer
interrupts. I can tell you that they just don't occur even when the system is
loaded to the max. We have a watchdog card in our system to detect just such an
event, it has never triggered (except when you push the test button). 

Jack




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Re: [time-nuts] PC clock comparison software?

[Jack Hudler]

Probably what to take this off list.

Eek screen capture. That's one of those heart stoppers on the Win9x platforms,
it's got nothing to do with Windows, it the device driver in some of those old
cards that CLI (Clear interrupts) for a long period. We had issues with this
causing Netware Client's to start outputting wrong time stamps IIR (It's been 12
years).

We solve the power glitch issue with an isolation transformer. We're at the end
of a 15 miles of power line and like you, it pickups a lot of trash on the way.
I'm sure your guys have done this, but it doesn't hurt to check. Failing that
try to push through a req for a toroidal type UPS, there you get isolation with
virtually instant cutover. The only issue I have with them is making sure you
turn them on without any load; in a glitchy environment the huge current in-rush
would cause all the UPS's on that circuit to trip.

If you can setup a NTP server that Win98se box with the GPSCon on it; that would
solve your time synchronization issues.

Question: What are they using to sample data with? Some sort of National
Instruments DAC, GPIB, HPIB device, or network?

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Charles S. Osborne
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 2:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PC clock comparison software?

Lots of good info as always from this list.

I probably should mention what some of these PCs are doing.

Someone asked about the telescope control PCs. The 26m dishes have their own
dedicated GPS receivers for their local time standards. Those do the
celestial navigation and tracking via their control PCs.

Our optical telescope control PCs are almost all on XP or Win2000. So NTP
should have them covered reasonably well. Test software would confirm how
well.

The PCs that tend to misbehave the most are Win98se Pentium 100 ~ 400 MHz.
They are doing a variety of menial tasks like: seismic data, solar flare
monitoring, meteor burst recording, VLF signal recording for Sudden
Ionospheric Disturbances, and cosmic ray montoring. They churn along at 4 ~
40 samples per second typically of constant data flow to the hard drive.
Every minute or so they may push a screen capture to our website.

Others with a somewhat higher workload are doing webcam or weather station
image pushes to our website once a minute.

For time/frequency we have two Z3816As and a Ball Efratom MRT free running
Rubidium frequency standard. I tweak it using an HP53131time interval
counter compared to the Z3816A. GPSCon V1.038 is the software running on a
Win98se box. I have a newer XP box I've been trying to move to for better
serving reasons. But it keeps turning itself off every night even though
we've tried to turn off power saving and automatic updates. Its on a UPS
with four 100AH batteries, plus four 7AH gel cells on float on the Z3816A
48vdc power side. The slightest power glitch still takes the XP computer
down even though its on the UPS. But the Win98se P166 plugged into the same
outlet strip on the same UPS weathers it all for months at a time without
rebooting.

The main network servers are Linux of one variety or another. Not sure what
the latest flavors are, but mostly Red Hat Linux Fedora Core I think.

The network glitches are probably power glitch related even though most
things are on UPSs. We're pretty far up in the mountains, so lightning and
AC supply side glitches are common. And the sheer size of the facility
induces surges from EMP transferred cable to cable on site too. The primary
fiber links are via 3Com ATM Core Builders with redundant fiber links. Its
mostly once things get out to the localized 8~24 port switches that latch up
occurs I think. Diagnostic code would help troubleshoot that since I could
see which branches failed when, and if they recover. Network loading is
minimal except from the main website server to the Internet via T1 ( soon
OC3, then that will be minimally loaded too except during distance learning
and video conferencing).

tnx,
Charles S. Osborne, K4CSO
Technical Director

Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive, HC 73, Box 638
Rosman, NC 28772-9614
http://www.pari.edu
828-862-5813 direct
828-862-5554 main
828-862-5877 FAX
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [time-nuts] Getting started on Shera project

[Jack Hudler]

YOU have a 10811D that worn out? How did you determine this?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Cornell
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 4:05 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Getting started on Shera project

I am new to the time list and a novice at disciplined oscillators. I will be
starting the Shera disciplined oscillator project soon. I would love to hear
from each and every one of you as I get started in this endeavor. I prefer
to make a stand alone unit, rather than disciplining my HP5328A.

There are some things that I already have that may help:
* HP-5328A counter w/10811D (10811-60120) oscillator. Works good, but pretty
old & worn.
* Ovenaire 84-14 10 Mhz oscillator
* Quintron Corporation Master Oscillator w/Ovenaire 74-14-1 5.0 Mhz
oscillator installed. I think this is a disciplined oscillator but I do not
know how to hook it up, or what to hook it up to. It puts out a 5.0 Mhz
signal.
* Good junk box and lots of tools and test equipment, and many years of
experience as an electronic technician and ham operator.

Things I am looking for
* HP Z3801 or Z3816
* Data sheet or any other information for the Ovenaire oscillators, pinout,
voltages, etc.
* HP 10811 that is working
* Any help or comments from the people on the list about what to do, what
not to do, hints, kinks, etc.

Thanks

Max Cornell K0MC [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS orthodontics: sawteeth & hanging bridges -theeffect of time averaging

[Jack Hudler]

Knew there was something I liked about Ulrich!
Laphroaig! I have a 30 and 40 in my collection... waiting for an excuse to open
my 40.





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Re: [time-nuts] Weird HP 5334B problem

[Jack Hudler]

Your manual 2934 covers the 2804 series and the 2804 definitely contains fixes
made in the 2704. Otherwise it would state that the 2804 requires this change.  

If you use a manual that cover everything up to an including 2804, then you
wouldn't know if any later fixes might have solve an issue you are working on.

Short form: It is always better to use a recently later manual.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Didier Juges
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:52 AM
To: !Time Nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] Weird HP 5334B problem

My HP 5334B has been doing the following since I got it off eBay this 
summer. It's not a major problem, but it is irritating and I would like 
to fix it, but I don't know where to start...

At power up, when being fed two signals for TIC measurements, the 
instrument passes self test without error but is stupid: the trigger 
LEDs blink wildly without relation to the signals being fed, and the TIC 
measurement is stable but wrong (for instance, it would display 99 uS 
when fed two signals with 20 nS delay).

As soon as I press the "READ LEVEL" button, the trigger LEDs start 
blinking in phase with the signal (assuming the trigger levels are set 
right, of course), and if I then press the TI button, it all works as it 
should. So I know now each time I power up the instrument, I press READ 
LEVELS once before doing anything else, and from there on, the 
instrument works as it should.

It seems as if the trigger level DACs are not being initialized properly 
at power up, and pressing the READ LEVELS button fixes it.

I did the READ LEVELS tests in the service manual and it passes.

My counter is serial number 2804A01295, the service manual I have (from 
the HP web site) applies to instruments with prefix 2937A, even though 
it does list some changes that apply to early 2704A series. 
Particularly, there were some changes to the reset circuit with the 
early 2704A series, I do not know if these changes are in my instrument.

Does anyone knows the differences between the 2937A series and the 2804A 
series? Anyone has a service manual for the 2804A series?

Thanks for any help.

Didier




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Re: [time-nuts] LUCENT RFTG-m-RB

[Jack Hudler]

Unit says RFTG-m-XO   XO = xtal and RB = rubidium



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[time-nuts] 5334A and TIC measurments.

[Jack Hudler]

One time I found a site that had some software to read a 5334x counter setup as
a TIC.

 

I didn't bookmark it, so does someone know where that was. or was I dreaming
again.

 

Jack

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Re: [time-nuts] 5334A and TIC measurments.

[Jack Hudler]

I was just looking for a quick fix to get going.

While waiting I setup LabView to do it. Tweaking with the file format now.

Thanks

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Didier Juges
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 10:31 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5334A and TIC measurments.

Reading a 5334x counter via GPIB involves sending one command (to tell 
the counter to make a reading) and one query (to fetch the data), not a 
particularly difficult task in theory. Exactly how you send that command 
and how you get the data depends on the GPIB adapter you have, and the 
user level software you are using. And that can get complicated.

I refer you to my GPIB page at

http://www.ko4bb.com/Test_Equipment/GPIB.html

for some practical info on GPIB.

Didier KO4BB

Jack Hudler wrote:
> One time I found a site that had some software to read a 5334x counter setup
as
> a TIC.
>
>  
>
> I didn't bookmark it, so does someone know where that was. or was I dreaming
> again.
>
>  
>
> Jack
>
>   


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[time-nuts] RFTG-m-RB on eBay

[Jack Hudler]

Well he hasn't any pictures (just ask for some).
Does anyone know what the output frequency is? 
What shape the Rubidium would be in?

Thanks,
Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:06 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RFTG-m-XO disassembly photos

John,

Many thanks for posting the photos. Now I know that there are
no card edge connectors and no need to find a card rack. The
connectors are not all that difficult to trace. The arrow
pointing to +24 is a help.

What's all this about 15 MHz out?

Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RFTG-m-XO disassembly photos

Nope, haven't fired it up yet.  I'm not sure when that will actually
happen; too many projects going on in the basement!  I wanted to get the
pics up to assist anyone else who may be working out the interface
information, so did that before anything else.

John


Didier Juges said the following on 12/26/2006 04:12 PM:
> John,
> 
> Nice pics!
> 
> Did you at least run it to see if it works and what kind of 
> performance you could get out of it?
> 
> Didier KO4BB
> 
> John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
>> My RFTG-m-XO arrived today, and the first thing I had to do was rip 
>> it apart.  I've put a series of pictures of the thing in various 
>> stages of disassembly at
http://www.febo.com/time-freq/hardware/Lucent_GPSDO/.
>> The pictures are full resolution so you should be able to zoom in to 
>> look at circuit details if you'd like.
>>
>> When my -Rb arrives, I'll add pictures of it, as well.
>>
>> I'm planning to repackage both units into a 19 inch rack chassis, so 
>> the disassembly is toward a good end...
>>
>> John
>>
>>   
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 


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Re: [time-nuts] Jack Hudler

[Jack Hudler]

I was astonished at the reduction in junk when they switch over to doing this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 4:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Jack Hudler

Randy Warner said the following on 01/02/2007 03:55 PM:

> The following recipient(s) could not be reached:
> 
>   Jack Hudler on 1/2/2007 12:45 PM
> There was a SMTP communication problem with the recipient's
> email server.  Please contact your system administrator.
>  record (see http://www.internetmailserver.net/reverse-dns.html)>

Randy, some mail servers do a check to make sure that the IP address
matching the name, is the same as the name matching the IP address --
it's called a reverse lookup.  This is designed to reduce spam and
spoofing; it's arguable whether it does much good.

The problem is that often ISPs don't assign a reverse name unless you
ask them.  For example, one of my addresses (that I don't use for an
external server) maps to:

"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ nslookup
> mvfma.febo.com
Name:   mvfma.febo.com
Address: 24.123.66.141

> 24.123.66.141
141.66.123.24.in-addr.arpa  name =
rrcs-24-123-66-141.central.biz.rr.com.
"

That would set off the warning you got from Jack's system because
mvfma.febo.com doesn't have anything to do with
rrcs-24-123-66-141.central.biz.rr.com.

On the other hand, my mail server looks like this:

"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ nslookup
> meow.febo.com
meow.febo.com   canonical name = febo.com.
Name:   febo.com
Address: 24.123.66.139

> 24.123.66.139
Non-authoritative answer:
139.66.123.24.in-addr.arpa  name = meow.febo.com.
"

Here, the two match so all is well.

Usually, your ISP is willing to set up a "reverse DNS" record for your
server that will provide a match, but you have to ask them to do that.
Getting that record established should solve the problem reaching Jack,
and possibly others who get mail through a server that does this check.

Hope this helps,

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking For Tektronix Knobs 22xx Series

[Jack Hudler]

Heck I would be grateful for a service manual for my Tektronix 2246. One doesn't
seem to exist.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:50 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking For Tektronix Knobs 22xx Series

I know this is a little OT for this group, but I was looking for a
replacement knob for my Tek 2215 scope. Just one of the little gray ones
that populates a majority of the dials. I'm pretty sure the 22xx models are
all the same, possibly the entire 2000 series.

Would anyone here happen to have a pile of surplus knobs that would be
willing to sell me the right one if they have it? I could email a picture of
the exact knob I'm looking for if you need me to.

*crosses fingers*

Thanks guys,
Jason


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

[Jack Hudler]

Doesn't surprise me... what amazes me is the amount of money she passes up by
not using Paypal.

Look here; http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf the pinouts
are the same. Additional information is on
http://www.febo.com/time-freq/hardware/HP10811-Specs.pdf

The connector is an EDAC 305-030-500-202 from www.mouser.com search for
587-305-50-030 @4.95 no minimum and shipping is very good. If I order before 8pm
using UPS ground it on my front porch 14 hours later.

Jack



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 9:18 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

Hello,

I purchased one of the HP 10811-60155 standards on ebay one month ago and it was
just delivered today.  Seller promised to send edge connector and pinouts, but
now refuses to send pinout and another item.  I am unable to test the standard.

This has been a difficult transaction and I wish to avoid any more problems with
her.  surely someone on our list must have pinout information on this standard.
The edge connector is MP-0156-15-SP-1   45 85

Thanks,

Stork

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

[Jack Hudler]

Yep I'm looking at it right now and yes it has eyelets.

http://www.hudler.org/pub/IMG_4586.JPG

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:46 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

Are you sure about that part number? I'm using edac:

357-030-520-202

It's the pins (vs the eyelets), but also the row-to-row spacing is .200mm,
and your model number is .140mm.

Do both fit I guess? I couldn't find info on the old CINC connector so I
just got out my caliper and started taking measurements.

I like mouser too, Digikey you have to buy $25 or they charge you an extra
$5. But also I find the way the mouser site works is much easier for me to
look up parts, browse the data sheets, etc. If it's light I can use USPS
first class and only spend a couple bucks on shipping, usually UPS Ground
will run a minimum of about $6-$8, but either will get here next day. :)

FYI, I *think* the person they might be talking about on eBay is
'alexandracarter', she doesn't take paypal and was selling a lot of
10811-60155's. I bought one from her in fact, but one of the standoffs was
bent and I didn't want to try and bend it back (for fear of damaging
something with my clumsy hands). So I sent it back and she received it back
on Dec 20th... I'm *still* waiting for my refund, which reminds me I should
probably send another email... *sigh* In all fairness though, she did pack
it well, and shipped it quick after receiving my payment.

The other oscillator I got (10811-60105) the person *just* listed and I did
a low-ball best offer of $25, an extra $6 for shipping. It is in excellent
condition, serial number 2332A28205. Does anyone know how to decode a date
from the serial number for these? Are they like the other parts where you
add on X years to the first two digits?

Jason

> The connector is an EDAC 305-030-500-202 from www.mouser.com 
> search for
> 587-305-50-030 @4.95 no minimum and shipping is very good. If 
> I order before 8pm
> using UPS ground it on my front porch 14 hours later.
> 
> Jack
> 


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

[Jack Hudler]

I'm about to update the HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf on hparchive.com with new part
numbers for the connectors (eyelets, straight, and 90 degree).

If anyone has any additional information they want added, chime in!

Thanks,
Jack
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:46 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

Are you sure about that part number? I'm using edac:

357-030-520-202

It's the pins (vs the eyelets), but also the row-to-row spacing is .200mm,
and your model number is .140mm.

Do both fit I guess? I couldn't find info on the old CINC connector so I
just got out my caliper and started taking measurements.

I like mouser too, Digikey you have to buy $25 or they charge you an extra
$5. But also I find the way the mouser site works is much easier for me to
look up parts, browse the data sheets, etc. If it's light I can use USPS
first class and only spend a couple bucks on shipping, usually UPS Ground
will run a minimum of about $6-$8, but either will get here next day. :)

FYI, I *think* the person they might be talking about on eBay is
'alexandracarter', she doesn't take paypal and was selling a lot of
10811-60155's. I bought one from her in fact, but one of the standoffs was
bent and I didn't want to try and bend it back (for fear of damaging
something with my clumsy hands). So I sent it back and she received it back
on Dec 20th... I'm *still* waiting for my refund, which reminds me I should
probably send another email... *sigh* In all fairness though, she did pack
it well, and shipped it quick after receiving my payment.

The other oscillator I got (10811-60105) the person *just* listed and I did
a low-ball best offer of $25, an extra $6 for shipping. It is in excellent
condition, serial number 2332A28205. Does anyone know how to decode a date
from the serial number for these? Are they like the other parts where you
add on X years to the first two digits?

Jason

> The connector is an EDAC 305-030-500-202 from www.mouser.com 
> search for
> 587-305-50-030 @4.95 no minimum and shipping is very good. If 
> I order before 8pm
> using UPS ground it on my front porch 14 hours later.
> 
> Jack
> 


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout

[Jack Hudler]

Good stuff thanks!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Christopher Hoover
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 1:22 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811-60155 pinout


(This info may be in the archive, I think, but maybe it came up on the TAPR
time-freq list and is in that archive instead.  Google site search is your
friend.)

The cross for the 10811 connector with HP 4x4 P/N 1251-2035 is definitively
to Vishay/Dale EB81-BN15TGW.  

There are a number of variants of this connector (t/h, solder tail, etc)
that are useful, depending on your application.

Cheers,
-ch


MSM Part Information Report

PART INFORMATION REPORT (PIR) CURRENT DATE: 07/17/05
00:26:10
 Page 1
=
INFRASTRUCTURE
=
HP Part Number   : 1251-2035
16 Character Description : CONN-PC 2X15
40 Character Description : CONNECTOR-PC EDGE 15-CONT/ROW 2-ROWS

.
 

  E) Name  : DALE ELECTRONICS INC
 City  : YANKTON 
 Geographic Area Name  : SD  
 Country Code  : US  
 Supplier Status   : INACTIVE
 Manufacturer Part Number  : EB81-BN15GW
 Manufacturer Part Number Status   : OBSOLETE
  
  F) Name  : VISHAY INTERTECHNOLOGY INC
 City  : MALVERN 
 Geographic Area Name  : PA  
 Country Code  : US  
 Supplier Status   : ACTIVE
 Manufacturer Part Number  : EB81-BN15TGW
 Manufacturer Part Number Status   : ACTIVE  


---

Cross REF 252-15-30-301 
NIIN 5935-01-087-8437


contact spacing 0.156"
board thickness 0.063"
15 contacts
2 rows

http://www.vishay.com/docs/36005/eb8.pdf

Newark:
 02J5841  EB81S0C1560W VISHAY DALE  EB81-C15SGW  T02 $9.00 
 02J5843  EB81S0K1540X VISHAY DALE  EB81-K15SGFX T02 $7.97 
 02J5844  EB81S0L1540X VISHAY DALE  EB81-L15SGFX T02 $7.97 
 02J5853  EB83S0L1540W VISHAY DALE  EB83-L15SGFW T02 $7.20 
 05H4067  EB83X15SGFX  VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTORS$4.28 
 44C7312  EB81S0C1540W VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $7.97 
 44C7313  EB81S0D1540X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $7.97 
 44C7314  EB81S0D1560X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $9.00 
 44C7329  EB82S0A1540X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $7.97 
 44C7337  EB83S0A1540Y VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $9.19 
 44C7338  EB83S0A1560X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $8.22 
 44C7347  EB83S0C1540X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $7.20 
 44C7348  EB83S0C1560W VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $8.22 
 44C7356  EB83S0L1540X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR $7.20 
 44C7361  EB85P0A1530X VISHAY DALE  EDGEBOARD CONNECTOR$17.39



Vishay Dale p/n decoder:
eb8{1,2,3,5}{,B}{A,C,D,K,L,E}15{SG,SGF}X

1,2,3,5 - body material
B - optional beryllium copper (A and E only)
A - solder, C 0.051", D 0.051" dip, K 0.051" dip, L 0.036" dip
V - clear hole 0.142", VI clear hole no pad 0.142", W -no flange, 
X - clear hole 0.128", XI - clear hole no pad 0.128",
Y - threaded 4-40 UNC, Z - bushing 0.116"





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Re: [time-nuts] NTS-100 IRIG to GPS Conversion

[Jack Hudler]

I should have mentioned that 10 pin header on 8 pin socket thing.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:12 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTS-100 IRIG to GPS Conversion

Finally got a chance to hook up the ACE III units today and tinker around
with them.

They were initially set to TAIP 4800/N81... Which did not work with the
NTS-100.
I tried setting them to TSIP 9600/O81 (eprom default) and 9600/N81 (more
common) but neither seemed to be recognized by the NTS.
I'm going to try maybe 4800bps in TSIP mode, beyond that if it's not
recognized then all I can assume is that the older NTS modules used a more
custom firmware for each model. IIRC those you could not simply download
firmware updates from their site, they had to mail you new chip to swap out
(from what I read).

Something else that is kind of weird, the header on the NTS is 10pins, but
the GPS module only has 8 pins. I've seen the NTS-100 with the GPS module
(thanks Jack!), and it only has 8pins on the ACE II, so it's not special or
modified. I guess maybe they did that for other future models or something.

One other thing I can try is I have a jumper on two pins on my board that
the GPS model I saw did not have. It's a long shot but can't hurt to try.

Anyone out there with a GPS module willing to do a little detective work? If
you unplug your GPS module and power up the unit, does it give you some
error on the display, or revert to IRIG mode? Second, if you have the time
and patience, if you hook it up to your PC could you give the settings for
the interface (protocol & port settings)? I would have assumed they would
use the default TSIP, but I could be wrong.

Jason


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Re: [time-nuts] Bad batch of HP10811's

[Jack Hudler]

Who sold them?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Amos
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:41 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Bad batch of HP10811's

Time-nuts,
 
Seems like a bad batch of HP10811's was dumped on e-bay over the holidays...
Some (at least 
2) won't tune up to 10MHz: one won't adjust above 9,999,530 and the other peaks
around 
9,999,920 after warming up for a day or so.  It seems to stay on frequency
(albeit the wrong 
one...)

I did some preliminary checks (internal reference voltages, OK, etc.)  I'm
thinking that it 
must be a bad crystal to be this far off. 

C'est une cause perdue? (I.e. did I buy a "parts" unit?)

Mark
 



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Re: [time-nuts] Bad batch of HP10811's

[Jack Hudler]

Just checked an she had a bunch of those that didn't sell. She hasn't relisted
them... interesting.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tim Shoppa
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:58 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bad batch of HP10811's

"Mark Amos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> FYI, the e-bay seller was Alexandra Carter.

I have bought other stuff from this seller (mostly old radio components
and tubes, although I think I got two command sets early last year) and
had no problem.

Their position as apparent special-internal-use-only HP stuff might
make them more valuable had everybody only known what it was in advance!

Tim.

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Re: [time-nuts] OT: RoHS crap

[Jack Hudler]

Sounds like; "It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt... then it's just
fun".

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: RoHS crap

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chuck Harris writes:
>Rasputin Novgorod wrote:

>But seriously, why are you dragging your misinformed opinions
>into time-nuts (even if you intended it as a joke)?

Taking fun
  as simply fun
and earnestness
  in earnest
shows how thoroughly
  thou none
of the two
  discernest.

-- Piet Hein



-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup

[Jack Hudler]

Could physical damage to the crystal account for this deviation?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:51 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup

On this unit, I suspect the oven was not at the correct operating
temperature.  Thus, although it warmed up to some extent, it may
not have reached 80 degrees C.  The real diagnostic would be to
slide it out of the case and look at the voltages on the thermistor
circuitry.  However a crude check can be made by measuring the
oven current and comparing it to a good 10811.  If it is substantially
lower, that would be a red flag.  The fact that the frequency seems
to be fairly stable is no guarantee that you couldn't have the
wrong oven temperature.  I have never heard of a 10811 with a properly
working oven that was that far off frequency.  You need to realize
that crystals had to pass a frequency test before the lid was installed
on the crystal package.  This was all done under automation.  Thus it is
"impossible" for a crystal 100 Hz low to ever exist.  And AFAIK, we
never made one on purpose.

Rick Karlquist N6RK



Mark Amos wrote:
> Didier,
>
> My experience with 4 10811's with widely separated serial numbers is
> consistent with your
> numbers below. Between 6 and 8 minutes of warm up from ambient (18C) and
> they're stable at the
> target frequency as measured with a recently calibrated 5328A (one without
> a 10811 - since
> remediated!)
>
> The recent bad unit I bought on ebay behaved similarly - it warmed up and
> within 10 minutes it
> had stabilized around 9,999,915.
>
> It is adjustable between about 9,999,900 and 9,999,920 or so using the
> adjustment capacitor
> through the hole in the case.  EFC seems to function correctly as well
> with a little over 1Hz
> of adjustability with +-5 V.
>
> As has been suggested, it must be some kind of test unit (or perhaps one
> that failed QA?)
>
> I replaced it with one from AST Global - they had a great return policy,
> shipped fast and
> packed well.
>
> In any case, I've retired the bad one as a marker generator at 9. MHz.
>
> Mark
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:53:28 -0600
> From: Didier Juges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bad batch of HP10811's
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>   
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Warmup data on the HP 10811:
>
> Here is some data collected on the internal HP 10811 timebase in my HP
> 5370A counter, which had been turned off and plugged off for about 3 days.
>
> 21:39:25,  798.6
> 21:39:35,  806.0
> 21:39:46,  822.6
> 21:39:55,  836.8
> 21:40:06,  853.2
> 21:40:15,  866.8
> 21:40:26,  881.7
> 21:40:35,  892.4
> 21:40:46,  904.1
> 21:40:56,  913.1
> 21:40:58,  915.2
> 21:41:07,  923.0
> 21:41:16,  930.1
> 21:41:25,  936.5
> 21:41:36,  944.0
> 21:41:46,  949.3
> 21:41:55,  954.3
> 21:42:06,  959.9
> 21:42:15,  964.0
> 21:42:26,  968.6
> 21:42:35,  971.8
> 21:42:45,  975.2
> 21:42:54,  977.9
> 21:43:05,  981.0
> 21:43:17,  983.9
> 21:43:26,  985.9
> 21:43:35,  987.8
> 21:43:46,  990.0
> 21:43:55,  991.3
> 21:44:07,  992.9
> 21:44:16,  994.0
> 21:44:25,  994.9
> 21:44:36,  996.1
> 21:44:45,  996.9
> 21:44:56,  997.7
> 21:45:06,  998.3
> 21:45:15,  998.9
> 21:45:17,  999.0
> 21:45:19,  999.1
> 21:45:21,  999.2
> 21:45:24,  999.3
> 21:45:26,  999.4
> 21:45:36,  999.7
> 21:45:45,  999.8
> 21:45:56,  999.9
> 21:46:05,  999.9
> 21:46:08,  999.9
> 21:46:10,  1000.0
>
> After that, the display was a stable 10,000,000.0 for the next 15
> minutes (one reading was 10,000,000.1), then I stopped the data
> collection.
>
> The counter used was the HP 5334B with the Thunderbolt as external
> reference.
>
> Ambient temperature: about 22 degrees C (cool)
>
> Bottom line: about 200 Hz from a cold start and about 7 minutes to
> within 0.1 Hz of final frequency.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
>
>
> ___
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>



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Re: [time-nuts] G3RUH GPS Stabilized Oscillator

[Jack Hudler]

Count the number of oscillations between the 1PPS, that will get you 1x10-7 any
thing more you'll need an oscilloscope to see the phase crossing.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Richard W. Solomon
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:17 PM
To: Time-Nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] G3RUH GPS Stabilized Oscillator

I built two of the GPS Stabilized Oscillator circuits (G3RUH as
modified by N1JEZ). They seem to work, except that I still have
not been able to confirm that the 10 MHz XO (FOX) is truly locked
up to the GPS signal. I can verify that the GPS Engine is locked,
but I still cannot prove to myself that the XO is locked.

I made one up to lock up a 1 GHz PLO that I can use for calibration
of my Service Monitor and the other to use as external references to
a couple of EIP counters.

Any thoughts or suggestions (other than using the services of NIST !!). 

73, Dick, W1KSZ 

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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup (Jason Rabel)

[Jack Hudler]

Made'm red just for ya in the updated 10811 manual

DO NOT OPERATE THE OVEN CIRCUITS WHEN THE OVEN MASS IS OUTSIDE OF THE OSCILLATOR
INSULATED HOUSING. DOING SO WILL OVERHEAT THE OSCILLATOR CIRCUITS INSIDE THE
OVEN MASS AND CAUSE PERMANENT DAMAGE. ALL OVEN TEST POINTS ARE AVAILABLE WITH
THE OVEN MASS AND OVEN CONTROLLER CIRCUIT INSIDE THE HOUSING.
WHEN OSCILLATOR COVER AND INSULATOR ARE REMOVED THERMAL FUSE WILL NOT PROTECT
CIRCUIT FROM OVERHEATING.
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup (Jason Rabel)

Jason Rabel wrote:
>
> I must of read at least 15 times 'do not power up the oven circuit' in the
> documentation... lol.

I am trying to think of why they say this.  I don't see why
you can't power the oven when it is disassembled.  I can see
that it might not reach 80 degrees or might oscillate and
it would be too hot to handle.

Rick Karlquist N6RK


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[time-nuts] 10811A/B manual updated on hparchive.com

[Jack Hudler]

Just uploaded an updated version of the 10811 OP/SRV to hparchive.com. Other
than 2 typos, I appended the PDF's for the 10811D/E, edge connectors and
vibration grommets.

http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf


Jack



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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup

[Jack Hudler]

http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-6.pdf

See page 2

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:40 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup

The oscillator is derived from a conventional Colpitts
circuit, with a capacitor from base to emitter, a
capacitor from collector to emitter, and the crystal
(in parallel resonance mode acting as an inductor) from
the collector to the base.  This is referred to as a
Pierce oscillator.

The desired mode of oscillation is mode C.  However, mode
B (with high tempco) has more gain, and a means for
preventing mode B oscillation is necessary.  There is
a network with 2 capacitors and 2 inductors (IIRC) from the
base to the emitter.  At 10 MHz, this looks capacitive
and serves as the capacitor in the conventional circuit.
At 10.9 MHz (IIRC) where mode B is, this network looks
like some other impedance, which in any event, does not
permit oscillation.

The crystal goes from the base to ground in conjunction with
the EFC circuit, however "ground" is the very low input
impedance of a common base amplifier.  The collector of the
transistor is RF grounded.  Thus the crystal is effectively
from collector to base.

The grounded base amplifier reduces far out phase noise as
taught in Burgoon's patent.

I can assure you that Burgoon knew exactly what he was doing
and even if it looks bizarre, there is very solid engineering
behind it.

Rick Karlquist N6RK


Normand Martel wrote:
> It's bizarre..
>
> The oscillator is some kind of Colpitts but with coils
> instead of capacitors in the feedback path.
>
> (i don't call it a Hartley, bcause Hartley's use a
> SINGLE tapped inductor.)
>
> 73 de Normand VE2UM
>
> --- Dr Bruce Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hal Murray wrote:
>> >> Is it okay to power up the main assembly once it
>> is removed from the
>> >> outer shell / insulation?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Lots of info here:
>> >
>>
> http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-10811AB-Manual.pdf
>> >
>> > I think I saw a warning about that, but maybe it
>> was something else.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> It is OK to power up the oscillator and output
>> amplifier, but the oven
>> circuit should not be powered up.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
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>
>
>
>
>


> Now that's room service!  Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 warmup

[Jack Hudler]

DUH! You wrote it Rick! LOL!

http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-6.pdf



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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

[Jack Hudler]

It's probably the thermistor. What model are you playing with?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 5:16 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

Okay, so I've partially disassembled my 10811, I have checked most of the
points in the manual and everything appears okay.

A couple questions though. There are a pair of black wires running from the
top PCB down under the board below it (I haven't removed that board yet to
see what is underneath), what are those wires for? I probed them and there
doesn't appear to be any power?

Second, the crystal has a red, green, and blue wire. I've probed all 3 of
those and nothing. I would of expected one to be power, unless that is what
the above mentioned black wires are for.

About to call it a day. tomorrow I'll finish disassembling and see what all
goes where.

Jason


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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

[Jack Hudler]

Jason,
Do me (and others) a favor and take some good pictures. Especially if
you can get one with it all unfolded (like page 63) I'll fix/sitch it up in
photoshop.

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 5:16 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

Okay, so I've partially disassembled my 10811, I have checked most of the
points in the manual and everything appears okay.

A couple questions though. There are a pair of black wires running from the
top PCB down under the board below it (I haven't removed that board yet to
see what is underneath), what are those wires for? I probed them and there
doesn't appear to be any power?

Second, the crystal has a red, green, and blue wire. I've probed all 3 of
those and nothing. I would of expected one to be power, unless that is what
the above mentioned black wires are for.

About to call it a day. tomorrow I'll finish disassembling and see what all
goes where.

Jason


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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

[Jack Hudler]

A Crystal is not a apply DC power get oscillations out.
I think of it like a crystal glass that get thumped with your finger and the LC
resonator(s) keep it going and keep it pure.

Start reading 8-88 and pay attention to 8-95 if you don't have any output.

Jack


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jason Rabel
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

What voltage goes to the crystal? I may have had my scope scale too high and
just didn't notice, but at first glance I don't think it was getting power.

Jason
 

-Original Message-

Yes, the black wires are the thermistor.

The crystal has three wires.  Two are actually connected
to the crystal electrodes.  The third is the case.  The
case is fastened to the casting with a screw.  The only
way the casting gets an electrical ground is by way of the
crystal ground screw and ground wire to the board.
The wires are welded to the crystal, so if you want to
disconnect one of them, you have to unsolder it from the
PC board.

Rick Karlquist N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)

[Jack Hudler]

Bruce,

I just compared it the original scans and found no differences.

Rick?

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 8:54 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair (was warmup / bad batch)
  
Jack
Paragraph 8-96 states:
OUTPUT AMPLITUDE HIGH OR LOW. Many times this can be cured by the 
adjustment of R6 as
described in paragraph 5-14. If the correct amplitude cannot be obtained 
with this adjustment,
monitor the signal at Q6(C) with an oscilloscope and set R6 to obtain an 
amplitude of 2.8V p-p.
Then check Q5 and Q9 stages. If the R6 adjustment isn't effective, you 
should suspect the AGC
circuitry (Q3, CR4, CR5, C5, C6, R5, R6, R7, or Q1).

The only problem is that according to the schematic Q6 is part of the 
oven controller circuit.
Surely they mean Q2(C)??

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp

[Jack Hudler]

If you send me the raw images Greyscale (not BW) 300 DPI or better, I'll put it
up on hparchive.com

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Bruce Lanning
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp

JoeMe TOO. If possiable could you put that pdf on this reflector.
Bruce W1GBS

- Original Message - 
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp


>I could use that, too.
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
> 
>
> Joseph Gray wrote:
>> I have a PDF for a 58516A, if that will help.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Colin Bradley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:42 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp
>>
>>
>>> Would anyone have a pdf or link for the manual on the HP 58517A L1
>>> distribution amplifier?
>>> Colin Bradley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>


>>> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
>>> Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair - Voltage Check

[Jack Hudler]

If you do solder it, wrap the wire at least 4 turns starting at the bottom, then
clip a pair of forceps or needle nose pliers for a heat sink on the start turn.
Then only solder the end of the wire on the terminal (There's a NASA procedure #
for this method, but that was another space, time and a dab of urethane).

One wonders how it passed the vibration testing without a good mechanical
connection (e.g., see above method). 
Did they even test this (other than shock)? 

Smarter heads than I worked on it so; I guess the wire length, stiffness and
adjacent padding are sufficient to prevent this. 

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:57 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair - Voltage Check

The pins are made of some alloy such as kovar.
I vaguely remember that you can solder to them
if you really want to.  I think the production
people decided welding was easier for them.
The stranded wires do have an annoying tendancy
to break off if you flex them very much.

There may have been a concern that the heat of
soldering to the pins wasn't good for the crystal.
If you are going to solder, watch the heat.

Rick Karlquist N6RK




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Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp

[Jack Hudler]

Bruce,
PNG preferred but TIFF, GIF, JPEG will work fine!

Thanks,
Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp

Jack Hudler wrote:
> If you send me the raw images Greyscale (not BW) 300 DPI or better, I'll put
it
> up on hparchive.com
>
> Jack
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Bruce Lanning
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp
>
> JoeMe TOO. If possiable could you put that pdf on this reflector.
> Bruce W1GBS
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Ackermann N8UR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp
>
>
>   
>> I could use that, too.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> John
>> 
>>
>> Joseph Gray wrote:
>> 
>>> I have a PDF for a 58516A, if that will help.
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Colin Bradley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:42 PM
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 58517A Distribution Amp
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Would anyone have a pdf or link for the manual on the HP 58517A L1
>>>> distribution amplifier?
>>>> Colin Bradley
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>

> 
>   
>>>> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
>>>> Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
>>>> ___
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>>>> time-nuts@febo.com
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>>>>
>>>> 
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>>>
>>>   
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>> 
>
>
>
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>
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>   
Jack

What file format do you prefer gif, tiff etc.,??
I have a similar information note for the 58512A

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair - Voltage Check

[Jack Hudler]

If you clean it then any solder (63/37) will do. 

Could they have coated the leads? 

The thermal properties and CTE of Beryllium copper are not unknown to the
astronomy community. Its dust is however extremely toxic!

Now that I think about this perhaps this why they weld, to reduce the
environmental impact of removing oxidized Beryllium copper.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair - Voltage Check

>From memory, the pins are made from Beryllium copper, this material has good
heat transfer properties and is generally much harder then straight annealed
copper, however when slightly oxidised, it becomes difficult to solder.

The Crystal element supported at the end of the pin(s), may receive excessive
thermal shock with to much heat. I would exercise greater caution then normal.

I suggest a fine flat pair of pliers at the base of the pin(s) leading into
the ceramic insulator, this will help in dissipating the heat to the pliers
jaws rather then transmitting the heat all the way to the Crystal element.

Good luck

Gerald





>
>
>The pins are made of some alloy such as kovar.
>I vaguely remember that you can solder to them
>if you really want to.  I think the production
>people decided welding was easier for them.
>The stranded wires do have an annoying tendancy
>to break off if you flex them very much.
>
>There may have been a concern that the heat of
>soldering to the pins wasn't good for the crystal.
>If you are going to solder, watch the heat.
>
>Rick Karlquist N6RK
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:31 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Repair - Voltage Check
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2007 at 11:30:20 AM, Discussion of 
>> precise time and frequency measurement wrote:
>> 
>> > Dr Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> 
>> > The crystal leads are supposed to be welded to the crystal base.
>> > The blue wire looks OK but the green and red wires are suspect.
>> > When welding wires one doesn't use solder dipped multistrand wires.
>> > Maybe the red green wires do not make good electrical contact with the
>
>> > crystal pins.
>> 
>> I have to ask this...why wouldn't soldering work?
>> 
>> Jim Palfreyman
>> 
>> --
>> www.tasmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

[Jack Hudler]

There are some clocks like the ones in schools that use a 1PPS, 1PPM or faster.

On eBay
230081995247 nice
110082857347 neat!!
250076726064
110081232209
180076563718

This guy is selling a master simulator 200071362893

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Amos
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:51 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Odd request

Time-nuts

I appreciate the comments regarding horological obsession.  Mine started with a
desire for an accurate master 
oscillator for my ham shack (built and use a couple Shera GPSDO's) and has
blossomed into a much broader interest 
in time (Ex tempus, sapientia?)  

This has led me to a silly quest.  I'd like to use a traditional clock face and
hands as an output device for a 
1PPS signal from my GPSDO.

I know this is a very broad question, but does anyone have advice on where I
might start hacking (or making) a 
mechanical clock face to accomplish this? Is there a simple clock design that I
could start with to build my own? 
Maybe replacing a pendulum or escapement with a solenoid?  Any examples to work
from?

Mark




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Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

[Jack Hudler]

It is elegant! Was that the XYL's opinion?  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dave Brown
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:07 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

- Original Message - 
From: "jmfranke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request


>I am going the same route and have discovered slave clocks which are
> solenoid driven clocks.  The clocks were once very popular in 
> schools and
> factories. The hands typically step in one minute steps.
>
> See: http://www.clockhistory.com/setclocks/index.html
>
> I plan to use one of the clock movements to display minutes and 
> hours and a
> two digit LED digital display for the seconds.  I will divide the 
> 1PPS
> output from a Z3801A by 60 to get 1PPM.
>
> John  WA4WDL


Some used a 30 second pulse as well - might pay to check the 
particular slave you have before you make the divider!I have a 
Gents master clock here- I DID want to put it in the lounge but it was 
considerd too 'industrial' so its been relegated to 'outer darkness'! 
Personally I think it's rather elegant, but..
Picture here-
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/gents%20master.gif
 These were made in two pendulum lengths-this is the longer case (3 
foot pendulum) model.
DaveB, NZ





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Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

[Jack Hudler]

Well well there's hope for her yet :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dave Brown
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:28 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

Yes- XYL, SWMBO, whatever!!!
But she does like my Telechron 8B01-like this one
http://uv201.com/Clock_Pages/Telechron/telechron_minitmaster.htm
which some 'twas say the original digital clock.  The 50Hz motor in 
mine needs replacing-considering a stepper motor driven from GPS-but 
that's another story.

 DaveB, NZ

- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Hudler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request


> It is elegant! Was that the XYL's opinion?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> On Behalf
> Of Dave Brown
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:07 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "jmfranke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request
>
>
>>I am going the same route and have discovered slave clocks which are
>> solenoid driven clocks.  The clocks were once very popular in
>> schools and
>> factories. The hands typically step in one minute steps.
>>
>> See: http://www.clockhistory.com/setclocks/index.html
>>
>> I plan to use one of the clock movements to display minutes and
>> hours and a
>> two digit LED digital display for the seconds.  I will divide the
>> 1PPS
>> output from a Z3801A by 60 to get 1PPM.
>>
>> John  WA4WDL
>
>
> Some used a 30 second pulse as well - might pay to check the
> particular slave you have before you make the divider!I have a
> Gents master clock here- I DID want to put it in the lounge but it 
> was
> considerd too 'industrial' so its been relegated to 'outer 
> darkness'!
> Personally I think it's rather elegant, but..
> Picture here-
> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/gents%20master.gif
> These were made in two pendulum lengths-this is the longer case (3
> foot pendulum) model.
> DaveB, NZ
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 
> 24/01/2007 18:48
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

[Jack Hudler]

Brooke,
Well I would guess that all depends on what you fine under that cover!
:)
It appears to be a 4 wire system which could mean you may find a run
motor and a correction coil. But I'm just guess'n. :)
Send pictures!

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:00 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd request

Hi Jack:

OK, so now I've won the Edwards school clock eBay item number  110081232209
I choose it because of the second hand.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110081232209

But how how to connect it?

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke

w/Java http://www.PRC68.com
w/o Java http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml
http://www.precisionclock.com



Jack Hudler wrote:

>There are some clocks like the ones in schools that use a 1PPS, 1PPM or faster.
>
>On eBay
>230081995247 nice
>110082857347 neat!!
>250076726064
>110081232209
>180076563718
>
>This guy is selling a master simulator 200071362893
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>Of Mark Amos
>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:51 PM
>To: time-nuts@febo.com
>Subject: [time-nuts] Odd request
>
>Time-nuts
>
>I appreciate the comments regarding horological obsession.  Mine started with a
>desire for an accurate master 
>oscillator for my ham shack (built and use a couple Shera GPSDO's) and has
>blossomed into a much broader interest 
>in time (Ex tempus, sapientia?)  
>
>This has led me to a silly quest.  I'd like to use a traditional clock face and
>hands as an output device for a 
>1PPS signal from my GPSDO.
>
>I know this is a very broad question, but does anyone have advice on where I
>might start hacking (or making) a 
>mechanical clock face to accomplish this? Is there a simple clock design that I
>could start with to build my own? 
>Maybe replacing a pendulum or escapement with a solenoid?  Any examples to work
>from?
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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>  
>

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Re: [time-nuts] FEI-565A part

[Jack Hudler]

Make sure you're seated, in an upright position, and have your wallet stowed
in a protected area prior to opening that RFQ reply. 
That is if you even get one!

:)

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:42 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FEI-565A part

Google found a 27M4B1 SGS 93 2250 at electrospec.com.

Sadly, electrospec has no specs, just an RFQ form.

Bill Hawkins

-Original Message-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] asked,

So to the question, has any one ever come across a device
marking of 27M4Bl or possibly a bad i(I) not an L(l)??



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Re: [time-nuts] Estate sales

[Jack Hudler]

I once found a $18000 telescope and promptly wrote out a check for the $1100
dollar price tag.

My hand was shaking on that one. I was so scared someone was going to out
me. :)

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich and Marcia Putz
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:30 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Estate sales

Hi all;
How come every time I go to estate sales there's only old furniture and salt
and pepper shakers? !!
Rich
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Re: [time-nuts] Fine print on HP 5334B

[Jack Hudler]

LOL You're not alone! 

I haven't looked, do you know what the CPU is?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Newell
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fine print on HP 5334B

Every time I dig through the 5370 schematics, I think to myself "wouldn't
it be nifty to build a replacement plug-in card with a modern fast CPU to
run the instrument", but I try and stop myself there.

-- 
newell  N5TNL


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Re: [time-nuts] Fine print on HP 5334B

[Jack Hudler]

Wow that's an easy 8bit instruction set. 
If someone dumped the EEPROM's I could whip up a disassembler. They even
have a 6800 simulator on sourceforge.
But, that would be the easy part, now you'd have to understand what it's
doing and why. 
Of course some HP benefactor could accidently send the source...

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Newell
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:21 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fine print on HP 5334B

At 07:14 PM 2/22/2007 -0600, Jack Hudler wrote:
>LOL You're not alone! 
>
>I haven't looked, do you know what the CPU is?

Without checking, I think it's a 6805.

-- 
newell


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[time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.

[Jack Hudler]

It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end.

If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the
manufacturer.

What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end of
life?

I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices! (Unless
I'm retired then that's another story)
You only have calculate the time value of money for that CBT purchase over
the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in your
tracks then this group really is aptly named! :)

>From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't
really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of life
on me shortly (few years) afterwards.

I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a heavy
alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out! 
Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe environment to
work with it.

So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult than
opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling an ultra
high vacuum and baking it out.

I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried about
cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the cesium
beam collimation to be lost.

Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate the
contaminates of the surface?

Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to life?

Jack





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Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.

[Jack Hudler]

Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?

Besides you guys (Symmetricom), who is building Cesium standards that
haven't yet been absorbed by Symmetricom? (note this is not meant to be
derogatory).

Certainly most if not all the 5060, 5061, and 5062 are either dead or close
to it. Excluding those that have had their CBT's replaced or properly stored
and regularly pumped down, or just lucky.

The 5071's have yet to make an appearance on eBay at levels I would consider
paying.

>From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future. 
Supply and demand dictates that surplus market prices will skyrocket out of
the vast majority of amateur reaches in the coming years.

So what's the next cesium standard to start showing up on eBay in numbers
with life left?

Jack

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.

> What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of 
> life? 
Buy another instrument off of Ebay.  It'll be cheaper, more accurate, and
last longer than the old one.  Plus, it'll have microprocessor control and
thus be cooler and more entertaining for the hackers.

> Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life? 
It can't be done.  Trust me, I've done it.

-RL

--
 
Robert Lutwak, Senior Scientist 
Symmetricom - Technology Realization Center 
34 Tozer Rd. 
Beverly, MA 01915 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Business) 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Personal) 

(978) 232-1461 (Desk) 
(339) 927-7896 (Mobile) 
(978) 927-4099 (FAX)

-- Original message -- 
From: "Jack Hudler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end. 
> 
> If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the 
> manufacturer. 
> 
> What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of 
> life? 
> 
> I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices! (Unless 
> I'm retired then that's another story) 
> You only have calculate the time value of money for that CBT purchase over

> the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in your 
> tracks then this group really is aptly named! :) 
> 
> From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't 
> really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of life

> on me shortly (few years) afterwards. 
> 
> I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a heavy 
> alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out! 
> Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe environment
to 
> work with it. 
> 
> So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult than 
> opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling an ultra 
> high vacuum and baking it out. 
> 
> I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried about

> cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the cesium

> beam collimation to be lost. 
> 
> Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate the 
> contaminates of the surface? 
> 
> Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life? 
> 
> Jack 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Hello

[Jack Hudler]

It looks like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280095458978

If it doesn't look very similar to this, buy this one and have done with it!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neville Michie
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:28 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Hello


Hi I am new to this group, my background; electronics, amateur radio  
and clocks.
I am developing a free pendulum and to analyse its operation I  
compare it to WWV
on 5 or 10 MHz, the only available radio frequency standard on air in  
Australia.
To examine the phase drift and jitter I compare it with a 1MHz rock  
in an oven.

I have a HP 5328A which is not stable. It is marked as having option 010
but when I look inside there is only one crystal, 10mhz, which looks  
like an el cheapo,
and no sign of an oven.
Can anyone tell me what option 010 looks like?
I intend to buy a $20, better than average,  10mhz rock and put it in  
an oven.
Any advice would be appreciated,
Neville Michie

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