[time-nuts] Spirent STR4500 GPS simulator

[Phil Parsons]

This is my first post after lurking for quite a while reading & trying to get 
to grips with the technology. I just purchased a Spirent STR4500 GPS simulator  
along with a pile of other kit. Unfortunately the CD was missing (no great 
surprise) & Spirent are not interested in selling me a replacement disk. So, 
can anyone help me with software for this or should I accept it is  a door stop 
& get rid? My plan was to use this to get consistent signals to test a few 
GPSDOs I have acquired. Any advice gratefully received.

Phil
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Re: [time-nuts] A man with two clocks...

[Phil Genera]

Sorry, I was looking for Graham's Arduino code; clearly my comprehension
and clarity limited on the phone.
On Oct 3, 2013 3:53 PM, "Sarah White"  wrote:

> http://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
>
> third paragraph:
>
> I've provided the source and binary files in >>>this<<< Zip archive, so
> you can either run the program as-is, or modify it to suit your own
> preferences.
>
> On 10/3/2013 6:43 PM, Phil Genera wrote:
> > Is your code posted anywhere? I've been meaning to do roughly the same.
> >
> > -- Phil
> > On Oct 3, 2013 12:07 PM, "Collins, Graham"  wrote:
> >
> >> David,
> >>
> >> Your raspberry-pi NTP clock is very cool.
> >>
> >> I have put together something along the same line but is in reality
> just a
> >> network connected NTP disciplined clock display using an Arduino and a
> >> typical 16x2 LCD housed in a small project box.
> >>
> >> The Arduino has a network shield and get's it power from a USB port
> >> although it could be powered by a battery or wall wart type of supply.
> >>
> >> When it starts, the device attempts to get an IP address using DHCP.
> Once
> >> that is sorted it attempts to sync to my local GPS disciplined NTP
> server,
> >> then sets and displays it's time. It resyncs every some value between 15
> >> and 30 minutes with the NTP server. If ever my local NTP server can't be
> >> found, it will attempt to sync to an outside NTP server on the
> internet. It
> >> keeps pretty good time, not "time nuts" level but is always within a few
> >> tenths of a second which is suitable for it's intended purpose.
> >>
> >> Basic time keeping of the Arduino uses it's 16MHz crystal clock and
> there
> >> is some provision for adjusting in code which I have done to improve
> it's
> >> time keeping. I am toying with the idea of adding a 1 PPS input but just
> >> haven't gotten round to it yet.
> >>
> >> All the bits and pieces of the code was copied from existing projects
> and
> >> libraries it being just a matter of finding the appropriate bits and
> >> pieces, putting them together and making changes in a few places to
> improve
> >> it's time keeping. It was a fun project to put together and has proven
> so
> >> useful in my lab that I will probably put together a couple more.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>
> >>
> >> ===
> >>
> >> Max,
> >>
> >> I see similar things here.  I've always put it down to relatively poor
> >> circuitry in the radio clock, which is why I built my NTP-controlled
> wall
> >> clock!
> >>
> >>   http://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
> >>
> >> One radio clock is below.  That particular MSF clock is actually not too
> >> bad - visibly it's in sync with the NTP clock (which itself is within a
> few
> >> microseconds of GPS time).
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> David GM8ARV
> >> --
> >> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> >> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> >> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> >> .
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Re: [time-nuts] A man with two clocks...

[Phil Genera]

Is your code posted anywhere? I've been meaning to do roughly the same.

-- Phil
On Oct 3, 2013 12:07 PM, "Collins, Graham"  wrote:

> David,
>
> Your raspberry-pi NTP clock is very cool.
>
> I have put together something along the same line but is in reality just a
> network connected NTP disciplined clock display using an Arduino and a
> typical 16x2 LCD housed in a small project box.
>
> The Arduino has a network shield and get's it power from a USB port
> although it could be powered by a battery or wall wart type of supply.
>
> When it starts, the device attempts to get an IP address using DHCP. Once
> that is sorted it attempts to sync to my local GPS disciplined NTP server,
> then sets and displays it's time. It resyncs every some value between 15
> and 30 minutes with the NTP server. If ever my local NTP server can't be
> found, it will attempt to sync to an outside NTP server on the internet. It
> keeps pretty good time, not "time nuts" level but is always within a few
> tenths of a second which is suitable for it's intended purpose.
>
> Basic time keeping of the Arduino uses it's 16MHz crystal clock and there
> is some provision for adjusting in code which I have done to improve it's
> time keeping. I am toying with the idea of adding a 1 PPS input but just
> haven't gotten round to it yet.
>
> All the bits and pieces of the code was copied from existing projects and
> libraries it being just a matter of finding the appropriate bits and
> pieces, putting them together and making changes in a few places to improve
> it's time keeping. It was a fun project to put together and has proven so
> useful in my lab that I will probably put together a couple more.
>
> Cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>
>
> ===
>
> Max,
>
> I see similar things here.  I've always put it down to relatively poor
> circuitry in the radio clock, which is why I built my NTP-controlled wall
> clock!
>
>   http://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
>
> One radio clock is below.  That particular MSF clock is actually not too
> bad - visibly it's in sync with the NTP clock (which itself is within a few
> microseconds of GPS time).
>
> 73,
> David GM8ARV
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> .
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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal insulation choice?

[phil]

  My goal is just to slow down any external thermal
transients so the oven loop has time to react gracefully.

Are you sure it is not thermal mass that needs to be increased and  
not just insulation?


Phil

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[time-nuts] Vectron oscillator

[phil]

The nearest data I can find is Vectron C4550 datasheet which is not  
very helpful.

Does anyone have the spec. for the 63.8976 ocxo?
thanks

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[time-nuts] Lightsquared

[phil]

Has anyone read this?
"The high-precision user is going to be thrown under the bus because  
we are the most difficult to accommodate (technically) and don’t have  
a high profile nor are perceived as significant enough to accommodate."


http://www.gpsworld.com/survey/lightsquared-high-precision-receivers- 
are-collateral-damage-11802? 
utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GNSS- 
Design_06_29_2011&utm_content=lightsquared-high-precision-receivers- 
are-collateral-damage-11802

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[time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity

[phil]

The boss in this household has added

What he forgot was that the patient will have no concept of time in  
the "real world" and frequently be late for any event including his  
own funeral!

Phil

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[time-nuts] slightly OT: EADS/Racal 1991 opt 55M

[phil]

I'll second the thanks to EADS (and David). I too used too look for  
support for older equipment when buying for day job.
Currently struggling with opt55M ie the miltary coding CIL/MATE etc  
for a stack of 6 1991's for TI use. Any pointers on using CIL/MATE  
would be much appreciated.


Phil G4FXY/G4NRK

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[time-nuts] Thermal time constant

[phil]

The suggestion of beryllium was somewhat tongue-in-cheek ie not to be  
taken seriously, I did mention there would be a few problems, death  
being somewhat a terminal one.


I agree with Bruce that specific heat*density is what is really  
required (I'd forgotten how light beryllium is. I don't seem to have  
much laying around to be familiar with it)


As an aside, cuts from copper swarf can take a long time to heal.

Sorry if I've lowered the tone of a good list.

Phil

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[time-nuts] Thermal time constant

[phil]

Looking at the specific heat of metals:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-metals-d_152.html
Wouldn't Beryllium be better instead of aluminium?
I could foresee a few problems though eg machining holes at home,  
never mind where to get a block from.


Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] nubie querie

[phil]

Even defining when the sand timer is "done" is not a real
simple thing. Waiting for that very last particle to drop may
not be the best approach. 


Bob


You could measure of the weight of the hourglass.
Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10544A with dodgy output?

[phil]

Didn't some of the 5345 or 5328 manuals have schematics for the 10544. I 
have no idea if it's in the on-line manuals but I recall seeing the 
timebases in some.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10544A with dodgy output?



Nick

The 10544A had at least 2 variants.
I have the originals but the various datasheets are available on Didiers 
site.
The earlier versions had a somewhat higher phase noise spec, as can be 
seen from the datasheets with different dates.
There was a significant change to the circuit to achieve the lower phase 
noise.


I don't have any details but I believe the changes were mainly to the 
oscillator and the method of extracting the output signal from the 
oscillator.


I suspect that using 2N3904's rather than a CA3045 may lower the close in 
phase noise.

But this would depend on if the CA3045 were used in the oscillator.
Do you have the serial number of your 10544?

The circuit could be radically different as the CA3045 includes a 
differential pair (the emitters of the pair are tied together).
From the image it appears that at least one of the transistors of the 
differential pair is used in the circuit.

Is the board shown actually the oscillator board or just the buffer board?

Is your OCXO a 10554 or is it a 10544A?

Bruce

Nick Foster wrote:

Bruce,

The 10544 I have doesn't correspond to the 10544 schematic I found on 
leapsecond.com. Here's a photo of the AGC board inside mine:


http://www.nerdnetworks.org/~bistromath/photos/misc/10544.JPG

It's an RCA CA3045 array instead of the 3094's used in the schematic I 
saw. Looks like the best thing to do is pull it out and test it, and 
replace if necessary. I imagine that despite the transistor change the 
schematic is mostly the same. Do you happen to know for sure?


Thanks,
Nick



Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:35:03 +1300
From: bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10544A with dodgy output?

The output of the diode detector is compared with the dc base voltage of
the oscillator transistor adjusting the oscillator transitor current
whenever the detector output deviates from
Oscillator transistor base voltage - 2*Vbe.

Bruce

Nick Foster wrote:


Thanks for the quick reply, John.




From: jmfra...@cox.net
Okay, 12V on the oscillator (pin 3) and 20V on the oven (pin 14).  How 
much

on the oven controller, pin 8?


+12V. The oscillator uses the same supply as the filter, with the 
addition of a 10mH inductor + decoupling caps.




Are pins 2, 4, 5, 9, and 15 grounded?  Pin 6 (EFC) should be grounded 
for

initial testing.



Yes and yes.

Upon looking further, something jumped out at me: the output is 2.2V 
RMS into 1000 ohms instead of the 1V RMS spec'ed in the datasheet. So I 
suppose the problem might be in the AGC circuitry, instead of the 
output emitter follower. It doesn't look as though the AGC in this 
oscillator contains a trimpot, like the 10811 does.


I'm using the schematic at 
http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10544/10544-3.gif, but I don't have a 
good idea of how that AGC works.


--n




From: jmfra...@cox.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:06:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10544A with dodgy output?

Okay, 12V on the oscillator (pin 3) and 20V on the oven (pin 14).  How 
much

on the oven controller, pin 8?
Are pins 2, 4, 5, 9, and 15 grounded?  Pin 6 (EFC) should be grounded 
for

initial testing.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: "Nick Foster"
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 2:53 PM
To:
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 10544A with dodgy output?




Hi all,

I've just built a GPS-disciplined oscillator built around a 10544A,
somewhat in the style of the Brooks Shera unit, just to use around 
the
shack. Problem is, now that it's wired up, I notice the output is 
heavily

distorted. It's clipped on the negative side of the waveform, like an
emitter follower without enough headroom. The more I load the 
oscillator
output, the heavier the clipping. When I load the oscillator output 
with
1000 ohms, spec for this unit, almost 30% of the waveform is clipped 
on
the negative side. If I don't load it at all and just put a probe on 
the
output, it looks OK, but still some flattening of the bottom half of 
the

waveform.

I've got it wired up according to the datasheet, with +12V on the
oscillator and +20V on the heater. The grounds for the
oscillator/amplifier, oven controller, heater, and output are all 
tied

together.

I know these are old units, and I'm wondering if this is a problem 
(for

instance in the output emitter follower amp) that others know about,
before I tear into it looking for a solution.

Thanks for your time,
Nick

_

Re: [time-nuts] Alternate frequency sources : DVB-T and ISDN?

[phil]

Speaking of alternate sources: Has any time-nut considered using the ISDN
telephone network [2]?


I think ISDN is finally dead here in Sweden. I can check if my ISDN 
connection is out for good. However, I wonder if the modern replacement to 
ISDN, such as ADSL is actually synchronised. It too uses OFDM/COFDM 
transmission and provides pilot-tones.



   Chris



Should you have a catastrophic failure of the gps system and Loran is dead 
and buried, the only true source for time/frequency will be from the 
respective government sites. In the US it would be WWVB, WWV, NTS 
(internet), and acts (Telephone).


I think most of you are forgetting that the bulk of the alternate sources 
being discussed derive their time/frequency guidance from gps. Cell towers, 
tv stations, tv networks, and the like will be left to their local timebases 
until an alternate correction scheme is developed and applied. The major tv 
networks "had" cesium standards, and I would think they still do but most 
others will be left to drift until they can be upgraded to an alternate 
guidance system.


Another thought, if that "catastrophic" failure should take out the gps 
satellites, chances are it could take out the tv satellites too. Then all 
that's left is copper, fiber, radio, and microwave sites.


If you need a reliable backup, perhaps it's time to dust off the old wwvb 
receivers and integrate them with these cheap rubidium standards. Perhaps 
now they will start bringing more than 50 bucks on epay!


Phil 



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Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: Referenceoscillatoraccuracy)

[phil]

Didier Juges wrote:
Enough for what? To bug the heck out of a citizen suddenly unable to find 
his way to the movie theater?


Weapon systems and aircraft navigation are unlikely to be affected by such 
a simple device on the ground, even if deployed in large quantity. Most of 
the stuff that really needs GPS has decent antennas that look up, not 
down.


They are affected, it is well covered, but the difference is the distance 
from the jammer until affected. It's a fairly well-understood problem and 
the difference between civilian and military receivers lies in signals, 
keying for access, bootstrapping and testing and counter-measures such as 
IMU.


Cheers,
Magnus


Possibly the two largest threats are being overlooked in this discussion. 
The US, Russia, and now China has numerous, possibly in the hundreds of 
clandestine truck sized satellites. Allot thought to weigh in at 8 to 10 
thousand pounds and some such as launched by the space shuttle to weigh in 
at 50,000 pounds up there now. Are they for communications, super-duper 
eyeballs, overgrown pea-shooters/laser guns, jammers, another positioning 
technology, or all of the above? Perhaps the ability to take out the various 
gps and other satellite systems exists now with the push of a button.


Should systems go down under those circumstances, finding the nearest 
Starbucks using gps may be the least of our worries.


Second and perhaps the real threat is a series of unprecedented solar storms 
or other unknown space based threats. That could conceivably render most of 
the satellites useless. I would think that ground based backup of all 
satellite systems would be mandatory.


Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium standard

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Smith" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium standard


I'm new to the list. Having said that, I ran across a webpage from a chap in 
Australia or maybe it was New Zealand. In any event he claims that the Rb 
lamp can be brought back to life. He says that he has rejuvenated over 30 
units with bad lamps and they work great after his "process."


I will try and dig up the webpage if anyone is interested.

Dave / W6TE
 - Original Message - 
 From: Hal Murray
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement

 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium standard



 > I was told by a Technical Support Engineer from Symmetricom Global
 > Services that "The typical life span is ~10 years for these Rubidium
 > Time Bases".

 > This is in response to my request for information on a Ball/Efratom
 > PTB-100.

 > Is this a typical life span of a rubidium standard?

 It's lower than what I would expect.  The target market is the Telco and 
Cell

 Phone industry.  They expect (or at least used to) long lifetimes.

 Maybe "life span" means how long they run it, planning to replace it with
 newer gear long before it actually wears out.

 I would have expected more like 20 years of useful life.  That's running 
24x7
 in a reasonable environment.  That's also with hacker reliability, aka 
it's

 not a disaster if it dies.  So if you get one that was dumped by a Telco
 after 10 years, it's not crazy to run it 24x7 and expect many more years.
 (Just as long as you don't go crazy if it doesn't last that long.  I can 
buy

 a lot of surplus stuff for the price of new gear as long as I'm willing to
 tolerate the time gaps and effort of replacing it when it dies.)


 The LPRO-101 blurb says:
   Amb.Temp: 20 °C 25 °C 30 °C 40 °C 50 °C 60 °C
   MTBF (hrs) 381k 351k 320k 253k 189k 134k

 A year is 8760 hours (ignoring leap years).  Call that 10K.  So they 
expect

 25 years at 40C and 32 years at 30C.

 That's calculated MTBF.  YMMV.


 > Do some standards last longer than others?

 I'm sure some are better than others.  I don't have any data.


 > What are the symptoms of a failing rubidium bulb?

 Externally?  It stops working.  The error signal (maybe a LED too) will go
 on, or rather the locked signal (open collector?) will go off.

 The frequency stability will fall off a cliff.


"He says that he has rejuvenated over 30 units with bad lamps and they work 
great after his "process." "
Is this what you were referring to? Near the end he explains how to 
"rejuvenate" lamps.
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20081103/c205b683/attachment.pdf 



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna and lightning and power

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Hawkins" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna and lightning and power



Group,

I understand the need for an equipotential plate at the building
entrance, with a good ground connection. I also understand the need
for a single point ground and, if possible, a metal ground plane
under the equipment that is also returned to a single point.

So far, this has been applied to the cables from antennas.

What about the power company ground? These wires also enter the
equipment, but they are not connected to the common ground. Even
if they were, the pole transformer wouldn't handle the voltage
rise from the usual poor earth ground at the equipotential plate.

A nearby strike can cause a high electric field in the dirt. One
example is the well pipe. Another is dead cows standing with
their feet apart (as they must). Or dead golfers.

The EMP problem is not affected by grounding at all. In fact, a
good ground at the building just strengthens the EMP and puts it
closer to the building.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Bill Hawkins



Mountaintops are unique in some respects, with Kevins terminology I would 
guess he is in the electrical business. Grounds for RF, Lightning, and 
electrical have little in common other than name. What is a good electrical 
ground may conflict with a good lightning or RF ground.


A mountain I am thinking of is primarily rock where holes were blasted in 
solid rock for the tower legs. For grounding, tons of copper sheets/plate 
was buried below what dirt is in the area. At considerable expense, they did 
manage to get about 25 Ohms above ground. When a dark cloud is on the 
horizon, the power lines are switched off and they go on Cat diesel 
generators and stay on them as long as the threat of a storm exists. Should 
they take a hit and fail to switch off the power companies lines, it will 
drop the power lines coming up the mountain.


The building is steel reinforced concrete and in essence a faraday cage. 
Tower, building, and contents are all the same potential, like the bird on 
the power line. No damage results BUT it can be one hell of a show with St. 
Elmo's fire and ball lightning. It's harmless, but a newcomer to the 
building in a storm may be found on top of the card table in the fetal 
position with the ball lightning rolling around. The lightning charge itself 
may travel a little further along the ground before it dissipates, but as 
long as you are in the building (faraday cage) and not standing in the area 
outside, you and all the equipment are ok.


Here is a super interesting short video of men inspecting "live" hi-voltage 
power lines.

Just like that bird on the wire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tzga6qAaBA

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Lightning and grounds...

[phil]

, 
lightning damage can be virtually eliminated.


The original poster made reference to his GPS antenna being mounted on top 
of his TV antenna. That sounds like it is the highest part of his 
installation and could take the brunt of a possible strike. The GPS antenna 
doesn't need to be elevated unless something locally obstructs its view of 
the sky. Most manufactures recommend the antenna be mounted away from 
lightning rods, not be mounted on the same mast that lightning may strike, 
yet under the "zone" of protection of the lightning rod.


My HP/Symmetricom gps antennas are some 50 feet from the base of the various 
masts that hold other antennas/sensors/lightning rods and mounted only 3 
feet above a flat roof. With 5 years of strikes, everything is still going 
strong.  I'm located 50 foot away from a mountain ridge some 10-foot less in 
elevation; however, various antennas and weather sensors are forty feet high 
or still 30 foot higher than the ridge.


Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube

[phil]

http://tron.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200203/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=14965
look at Page 2

If it is a direct "quote", public domain ?

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube



Presumably, the author could put the poem in the Public Domain. Copyright
poof!

FWIW,
-John




- Original Message -
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube



In message <4aa5766c.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson
writes:


Oh, I find the poem a nice tongue-in-cheek from its designer. We have
always wanted refined high precission physical science to be dwelled
into chants and poems of its master magicians. :)


Those of you with a HP3458A can try to give it the command "XYZZY"
via GPIB :-)

--
Poul-Henning Kamp


The Poem ???

"The earth is not a great clock.
It's a good clock, but atomic standards
are much better."
- Len Cutler, Agilent Technologies,
New York Times, January 17, 2002


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5071A Electron Multiplier of Cesium Beam Tube


In message <4aa5766c.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson 
writes:



Oh, I find the poem a nice tongue-in-cheek from its designer. We have
always wanted refined high precission physical science to be dwelled
into chants and poems of its master magicians. :)


Those of you with a HP3458A can try to give it the command "XYZZY"
via GPIB :-)

--
Poul-Henning Kamp


The Poem ???

"The earth is not a great clock.
It's a good clock, but atomic standards
are much better."
- Len Cutler, Agilent Technologies,
New York Times, January 17, 2002 



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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO sensitive to gravitational effects

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Putnam" 

To: "Time Nuts" 
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 1:30 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO sensitive to gravitational effects



  You have all been a bit stingy with your gravitational inputs on the hp
  18011 oscillator... one G this way... two Gs the other way...
  Here you can see the result of some serious Gs, all applied at the same
  time...
  e*.* auction item:160360186935
  Add only $56.55 to your bid to ship the carcass.



Peter, don't forget to add insurance ! haha

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna Voltage-Dropping

[phil]

In a message dated 03/09/2009 02:05:20 GMT Daylight Time,
brucekar...@aol.com writes:

I bought  a 3.6-V Trimble Bullet GPS antenna on ePay and wish to use it
with
my  T-bolt.  Rather than try to internally modify the T-bolt to provide  a
3.6-V antenna feed, I decided to try to build an in-line dropping 
adapter.


I seriesed two Si diodes inside a 100 pf tubular  ceramic capacitor and
installed  the shrink-wrapped assembly inside a  salvaged BNC-M to BNC-F
coaxial
assembly.  Unfortunately the  completed assembly exhibits about a 4-to-1
VSWR when terminated in a  50 ohm load.  Has anyone else tackled this
challenge?

The 3.6-V Trimble antenna has less gain than the 5-V  version which  makes
my planned antenna rcable run on the edge even  without the high  VSWR..




If you dont want to modify the T'bolt it would probably be easiest to
derive 3.6v from the 5v supply external to the T'bolt and feed that into 
the

antenna line with a blocking T.

In the long run though it might be cheaper just to cut your losses and 
sell

on the 3.6v version, buy a higher gain low cost 5v patch for now if you
don't  already have one, and keep an eye out for a 5v bullet if that's 
what

you really  want.

regards

Nigel
GM8PZR




I believe all the Trimble Bullet II and III's are rated 35 db gain. Most had 
"F" connectors and rated 5-volts. The "TNC" connector was the 3.3-volt 
version.


All the Bullet II and III's (I've seen) are patch antennas in a "Bullet" 
housing. I have seen both versions use both a cast aluminum base with 4 
screws attaching base to dome and also a plastic base glued to the Bullet 
dome.


As have been discussed, you can use a bias-t and inject 3.3 from a separate 
supply or use a splitter such as the HP/Symmetricom 58535A and inject  3.3 
from a separate supply on port 1. Both the Bias T and the splitter options 
require an external 3.3-volt supply plus 50 to 100 bucks for either the T or 
splitter.


By far the best solution would be to buy a 5-volt antenna.
If money is the problem, and you want a pole mountable outside antenna, 
search for a Marine GPS antenna. They are available in 25 to 37 db gain and 
can be had new for as little as 20 bucks. Most of the lower gain antennas 
seem to be marketed as jam resistant.


Not recommended, but you could also replace the patch in the bullet antenna 
if it is the "4-screw" version. There is a rubber o-ring seal that can be 
rather tight but that is the only thing other than the 4 external screws 
holding it together.


Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Finding out who bidders are

[phil]

Sure. The feedback numbers seem to follow but that's all. Fact is now, even 
a buy it now shows "nothing", no id other than a sold date. Hope they leave 
feedback to the seller and track them that way. They are constantly changing 
everything, perhaps trying to emulate look feel of Amazon and others. It's 
not the same place anymore.


Doesn't apply to everything but if you find an item that tickles your fancy, 
take the model and google it, you just may find it elsewhere cheaper or with 
someone you could negotiate with.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Finding out who bidders are



Are you sure? I checked a number of times with things I'd bid on from
different, some public, computers, some I've never, ever signed in with.

-John

===


The "Bidder Code" letters also changes, it is not fixed on a given users
id.



- Original Message -
From: "Rex" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Finding out who bidders are



Interesting ideas. If only I had the time and patience to work out the
list, like some of you have already done.

How about somebody stepping up and starting a webpage database of
"Who's who" in Business & Industrial / Electrical & Test Equipment
with listings like:
Bidder Code  ScoreRating on Date  may be eBay
member
a***e 345   99%  Sep 01 2009"someguy99"

Perhaps some of it could be automated, altough the current eBay  seems
to
be so loaded with Java or other scripts running in my browser that even
just scanning the current listings myself is getting painfully slow.

A Firefox extension that implemented this would be very sweet.

-Rex

Ed Palmer wrote:


When you combine the alias with the rating - e.g. k***u ( 862 ) - the
accuracy starts to resemble crosshairs in a sniper scope.

Ed


J. Forster wrote:


Yup. It helps to know that the masked bidder ID, liks  a***f, stays
constant sale to sale. While there are only a few over 650 such
combinations, it's still pretty accurate on items with limited appeal.

-John

==



Hi all;
It was nice back when ebay let us know who we were bidding against,
if
you
were up a against some heavy hitter then why waste your time, etc.
Now
it
takes a little more work to ferret out who you're up against. What I
have
done is to save the feedback page for a seller of an item I may have
been
out bid on. Usually within a short time the bidders feedback response
shows up on the sellers feedback page, compare the feedback score
back
against the item page to check if you have the right person. Then
from
that you can do a bidder search in "advanced search" and look at
items
bid
on in the last 30 days to cross check. I then save the bidder's bid
page
in a folder,  I have done that to most of us bidding time-nuts.
Creepy
huh!?!

Rich 1PPS






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Re: [time-nuts] Finding out who bidders are

[phil]

The "Bidder Code" letters also changes, it is not fixed on a given users id.



- Original Message - 
From: "Rex" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Finding out who bidders are


Interesting ideas. If only I had the time and patience to work out the 
list, like some of you have already done.


How about somebody stepping up and starting a webpage database of
"Who's who" in Business & Industrial / Electrical & Test Equipment
with listings like:
Bidder Code  ScoreRating on Date  may be eBay 
member

a***e 345   99%  Sep 01 2009"someguy99"

Perhaps some of it could be automated, altough the current eBay  seems to 
be so loaded with Java or other scripts running in my browser that even 
just scanning the current listings myself is getting painfully slow.


A Firefox extension that implemented this would be very sweet.

-Rex

Ed Palmer wrote:

When you combine the alias with the rating - e.g. k***u ( 862 ) - the 
accuracy starts to resemble crosshairs in a sniper scope.


Ed


J. Forster wrote:


Yup. It helps to know that the masked bidder ID, liks  a***f, stays
constant sale to sale. While there are only a few over 650 such
combinations, it's still pretty accurate on items with limited appeal.

-John

==



Hi all;
It was nice back when ebay let us know who we were bidding against, if 
you
were up a against some heavy hitter then why waste your time, etc. Now 
it
takes a little more work to ferret out who you're up against. What I 
have
done is to save the feedback page for a seller of an item I may have 
been

out bid on. Usually within a short time the bidders feedback response
shows up on the sellers feedback page, compare the feedback score back
against the item page to check if you have the right person. Then from
that you can do a bidder search in "advanced search" and look at items 
bid
on in the last 30 days to cross check. I then save the bidder's bid 
page

in a folder,  I have done that to most of us bidding time-nuts. Creepy
huh!?!

Rich 1PPS






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Re: [time-nuts] [OT] Re: Power Back-up

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Martindale" 



There's another potential problem with connecting larger batteries, too:
heat.  Small UPSes often have no cooling fan, and minimal heat sinking for
the power transistors when operating in inverter mode.  The UPS designers
know that, with the stock battery, the inverter run time is going to be
about 4 minutes at full load and maybe 30 minutes at very light load.  So
they just need to provide enough thermal mass to spread the heat around
without temperatures getting too high for that short run duration, not
enough cooling for the longer runtime provided by larger batteries.

I have one UPS (a SL Waber) that has the inverter FETs and diodes mounted 
on

a big chunk of aluminum inside the case, without any cooling fins on the
aluminum, no fan, and only small slots in the plastic outer case.  But the
battery is only 12 V 4.5 Ah.  This pretty clearly wouldn't survive being
connected to a 20 Ah battery, even if you provided an external charger to
keep the battery charged.

The APC UPSes at least have conventional heat sinks on the transistors, 
but

the smaller units have cases with no ventilation openings.

If you "re-engineer" one of these for longer run time, you may need to
change heat sinks, add ventilation slots, and/or add a fan.

 Dave


The real pitfall with using larger than designed batteries in a UPS is the 
additional current required to charge the larger batteries. "Transistors" 
are not used in the output on most UPS's any more, most use power FET's and 
with it's lower resistance, doesn't dissipate as much heat.  Running in a 
lost power state is not the issue; it's when the power comes back on and 
starts charging the batteries.


Phil 



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story

[phil]

Jim, try this link http://octopart.com/info/RCA/2N1701 that first vendor has 
them for 5 bucks each, I didn't check shipping.


Get someone you know stateside to buy them and post it to you if you are not 
in US. The above vendors don't have many, but I noticed other vendors with 
15,000 plus in stock. It's readily available.


Phil



- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Palfreyman" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story


Hi Phil,

100% agree. I'm not going to risk a substitute - especially in the crystal 
oven.


Unfortunately, check out http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/Shipping/
and see they will charge me US$69.99 which is AUS$100 for posting a
single $8 transistor!

The cheapest I have found so far is down to US$22 postage for a single
transistor.

Regards,


2009/8/11 phil :


- Original Message - From: "Dave M" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story



Thanks for that! - I do have a number of the 5254L units and one of
them is now being eyed off for organ donation. So thanks to all offers
for the 1854-0003.

The 2N1701 in a T08 is my next quest...

2009/8/10 Dave M :


Hi all,

Latest update.

With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been
isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9
is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure.

Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be
able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP
internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one.

After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good
descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is
interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have?

Regards and thanks to all!

Jim Palfreyman





Jim, the 1854-0003 is a pretty common HP part in older eqpt. ?If you
have
junked 5245L counter handy, it's full of them, especially in the decade
counter PCBs. ?If you don't have one handy, I have an assembly here 
with

8
of them on it. ?If you like, I can send it right away (if you're 
outside

the
USA, you pay postage).

Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the
self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the
purpose.



Jim,
The NTE sub for the 2N1701 is the NTE152, available from Mouser and many
other suppliers. According to the datasheet, it's in a TO-220 case. If 
you

want to try to find a sub in a smaller package, here are some of the
pertinent specs for the 2N1701.
NPN Silicon
Vcbo = 40V
Ic (max) = 2.5A
Pd = 25W
Hfe = 20-80 @ 300ma/4V
Vsat = 1.5V @ Ic=300ma, Ib=30ua
Iceo = 750ua @ 60V
Ft = 350KHz

Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net


I would not use a "cheap" general replacement transistor in a direct 
coupled
unit unless it was absolutely positively the last one on earth. Many 
vendors

have that 2N1701 in stock from 7 to 8 bucks American. We have repaired
thousands (no exaggeration) of units that all that was wrong is where
incompetent technicians used general replacement transistors rather than 
the

originals in direct coupled amplifiers.
http://store.americanmicrosemiconductor.com/2n1701.html

Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave M" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story



Thanks for that! - I do have a number of the 5254L units and one of
them is now being eyed off for organ donation. So thanks to all offers
for the 1854-0003.

The 2N1701 in a T08 is my next quest...

2009/8/10 Dave M :

Hi all,

Latest update.

With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been
isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9
is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure.

Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be
able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP
internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one.

After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good
descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is
interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have?

Regards and thanks to all!

Jim Palfreyman





Jim, the 1854-0003 is a pretty common HP part in older eqpt. ?If you 
have

junked 5245L counter handy, it's full of them, especially in the decade
counter PCBs. ?If you don't have one handy, I have an assembly here with 
8
of them on it. ?If you like, I can send it right away (if you're outside 
the

USA, you pay postage).

Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the
self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the
purpose.



Jim,
The NTE sub for the 2N1701 is the NTE152, available from Mouser and many 
other suppliers.  According to the datasheet, it's in a TO-220 case.  If 
you want to try to find a sub in a smaller package, here are some of the 
pertinent specs for the 2N1701.

NPN Silicon
Vcbo = 40V
Ic (max) = 2.5A
Pd = 25W
Hfe = 20-80 @ 300ma/4V
Vsat = 1.5V @ Ic=300ma, Ib=30ua
Iceo = 750ua @ 60V
Ft = 350KHz

Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net


I would not use a "cheap" general replacement transistor in a direct coupled 
unit unless it was absolutely positively the last one on earth. Many vendors 
have that 2N1701 in stock from 7 to 8 bucks American. We have repaired 
thousands (no exaggeration) of units that all that was wrong is where 
incompetent technicians used general replacement transistors rather than the 
originals in direct coupled amplifiers. 
http://store.americanmicrosemiconductor.com/2n1701.html


Phil 



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Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCEDISTRIBUTIONAMP - update

[phil]

Demain,
Apparently, in my rush I misread that data sheet. If it can't be easily 
modified, some of the guys were offering a decent distribution board at a 
reasonable price. I too need a sine wave rather than square. It still makes 
one heck of a nice housing so nothing is lost.

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "phil" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY 
REFERENCEDISTRIBUTIONAMP - update




Demain,
I too bought a couple of that same model but it will be about a week 
before I have receive them.


Did you see that data sheet that Bruce linked to? 
http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf
From what I understood of the distribution modules (MBF), each module had 
4 different outputs, each module a .1, 1, 5, 10 MHz.
Most of the standards that same seller had appeared to be 5 MHz out so I 
expected a 5 meg input. That same data sheet states under MBF options that 
most of the modules are 5/10 MHz input but two were dedicated 5 or 10 meg 
only. Perhaps we got the 5 meg only ! From what you are saying, each port 
on the MBF module is outputting the same thing, strictly distribution. 
That's fine, perhaps they meant the MFT would pass .1 to 10 meg. If that's 
the case we should still be able to modify the input module. My 
application is the same as yours, not a "time-nut" application!


I though it worth the gamble for the cheap price.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Demian Martin" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE 
DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update




I received the unit. The shipping and packing was very good- no peanuts!

The one I got was different from what I expected. It's a 5 MHz unit with 
20
outputs. More than I could conceivably need. I looked inside. The supply 
is

actually 25V. The input module has an FPGA for some reason, probably to
communicate fault back to a host. The signal is distributed as a low 
level

square wave on the backplane and amplified through a high gain tuned amp
before going to the output amps. The outputs are all monitored.

I need to figure out the tuned circuit so I can retune it. Would the
performance be better if I bypass the input module and drive the output
modules with a sine wave? I'm using it as a reference for some
not-too-sophisticated counters and generators so the phase noise will be
much better than those could benefit from regardless.

Demian Martin
PDS
--


Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:46:44 -0700
From: "Demian Martin" 
Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION
AMP
To: 
Message-ID: <9a1668b965254471953484d102b6a...@pdsdesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP
I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into
building one but for
$50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have
6 more. Item
number 290330439821.  Probably a deal for the box alone.

Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a
Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the
family of products
here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf

Demian Martin


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Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update

[phil]

Demain,
I too bought a couple of that same model but it will be about a week before 
I have receive them.


Did you see that data sheet that Bruce linked to? 
http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf
From what I understood of the distribution modules (MBF), each module had 4 

different outputs, each module a .1, 1, 5, 10 MHz.
Most of the standards that same seller had appeared to be 5 MHz out so I 
expected a 5 meg input. That same data sheet states under MBF options that 
most of the modules are 5/10 MHz input but two were dedicated 5 or 10 meg 
only. Perhaps we got the 5 meg only ! From what you are saying, each port on 
the MBF module is outputting the same thing, strictly distribution. That's 
fine, perhaps they meant the MFT would pass .1 to 10 meg. If that's the case 
we should still be able to modify the input module. My application is the 
same as yours, not a "time-nut" application!


I though it worth the gamble for the cheap price.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Demian Martin" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE 
DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update




I received the unit. The shipping and packing was very good- no peanuts!

The one I got was different from what I expected. It's a 5 MHz unit with 
20
outputs. More than I could conceivably need. I looked inside. The supply 
is

actually 25V. The input module has an FPGA for some reason, probably to
communicate fault back to a host. The signal is distributed as a low level
square wave on the backplane and amplified through a high gain tuned amp
before going to the output amps. The outputs are all monitored.

I need to figure out the tuned circuit so I can retune it. Would the
performance be better if I bypass the input module and drive the output
modules with a sine wave? I'm using it as a reference for some
not-too-sophisticated counters and generators so the phase noise will be
much better than those could benefit from regardless.

Demian Martin
PDS
--


Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:46:44 -0700
From: "Demian Martin" 
Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION
AMP
To: 
Message-ID: <9a1668b965254471953484d102b6a...@pdsdesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP
I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into
building one but for
$50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have
6 more. Item
number 290330439821.  Probably a deal for the box alone.

Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a
Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the
family of products
here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf

Demian Martin


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Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking

[phil]

Ulrich,
That program I linked to earlier, microsofts ComDisable, will stop that com 
port from detecting attached devices on boot for selected ports.
Once the system boots there is no issue using the com ports. We used to have 
that problem with weather equipment attached to com ports. Windows would 
configure the com port with the data on boot as a mouse and the curser 
bounced all over the screen. That program just modifies a registry entry. It 
is executed on a command line.

Phil



- Original Message - 
From: "Ulrich Bangert" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking


Since this problem arises at Windows BOOT time (long before any 
application software possibly not directly written into XP environments 
can get active), this is clearly NOT an application program problem.


The problem arises ONLY with external serial devices that send serial 
information on a regular base without being asked for. During the boot 
process Windows tries to detect what kind of pointing devices are 
connected to the serial ports and sarches for mice, trackballs ad so on. 
With devices that always talk Windows thinks it gets an answer and 
believes that the device is a mouse or a trackball or whatever. The 
problem first got discussed with GPS receivers that sent NMEA information 
with a 1 s timebase. One clue is to limit the searched serial ports by a 
entry in a Windows Ini-file.


Best regards
Ulrich


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von erniepe...@aol.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2009 18:14
An: time-nuts@febo.com
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking


Hi,

this Windows XP serial port problem is the biggest headache when you
run a program which is not directly written into XP
environments... I have an old compi running under WIN
98SE and never got any
problem.
just think... when was the Tbolt software developed.
many years
before XP was born..

Rgds Ernie.


-----Original Message-
From: phil 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking


Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to
your computer on boot.
check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036


- Original Message - From: "Robert Darlington"

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking

> If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP
thought it was
some
> kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232
adapter.
> Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the
software.
>
> To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it
attached,
> disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then
went
> into device manager and disabled the
new device which showed up as
some > type
> of mouse.
>
> -Bob
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green 
wrote:
>
>> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up
and ran
>> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is
correct. I
am
>> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that
is what the
>> problem
>> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios
that have a
>> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will
try a
>> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I
did
>> look
>> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my
first
>> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having
some
>> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated.
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking

[phil]

Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to your 
computer on boot.

check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036



- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Darlington" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking



If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP thought it was some
kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 adapter.
Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the software.

To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it attached,
disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then went
into device manager and disabled the new device which showed up as some 
type

of mouse.

-Bob

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green  wrote:


I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran
Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am
using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the
problem
is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a
reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a
standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did
look
at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first
experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some
problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated.
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Re: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from?

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Hal Murray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 2:59 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from?





That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some
regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and
mount it in one of the blank panels.


Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell.  For cars/trucks, they come
conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units.  The phone company works off 48V.

But where does 28V come from?

The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V
which straddles both 24V and 28V.


Hal,
Where did you find that Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet ?
Any other data on that unit?
Phil 



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Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A

[phil]

I put them on -bay every now and then but they bring big bucks.
Try this link for the connector only,
http://www.peigenesis.com/itt-cannon-connectors.html

You may alter your search and include Military Connectors or Military power 
cords as that was common on some of the older Military versions of HP 
equipment.


Phil




- Original Message - 
From: "J. L. Trantham" 
To: "'Tom Van Baak'" ; "'Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement'" 

Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A



I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors.  Are
they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and
mating connector to something that I can find?

Thanks,

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Van Baak
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A



Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B,
5065A, etc.)?  I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates
with AC connector on the back.

The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates
with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW.

Thanks in advance.

Joe


See if this helps.

http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm

Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins
that match the schematic.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals

[phil]

Thank You  John


- Original Message - 
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals



I tried to sell my working 207 (but w/o the manual) several years ago. I
could not even get $100 for it at any of several local flea markets.

FWIW,
-John




Advice ?
Dave M's question about that manual reminded me of a bunch of this old
"stuff" I have just occupying space. I have an old Fluke 207 VLF
Receiver/Comparator (I think 207-5) complete with manual/schematics as
well
as the Fluke 103A with manual/schematics.
They haven't been hooked up or used in years but it's time to "clean
house"
on a bunch of this old stuff. Could anyone give me some idea of value, if
any these days? Perhaps as lot.

Many thanks


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Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US

[phil]

A few other reasons that come into play for not shipping outside of USA,

(1) With respect to items a seller may purchase from Federal auctions or a 
company such as Honeywell that is under federal contract, the "general" 
terms of the sale/auction is that the items will not be exported. Certainly, 
some items could/would fall into the "dual-use" category. I doubt a kitchen 
table would be "dual-use" unless you assemble bombs on it, yet the terms of 
some auctions are explicit, no exporting.


(2) What stops the most "small" sellers from shipping out of the US is the 
financial risk.
In reading some of the forums on eBay, sellers are getting scammed in 
numerous ways. You have PayPal that seems to side with the purchaser 
regardless of circumstances. If an item is returned to seller for any reason 
the seller will at least loose the shipping cost, possibly fees, and with 
extreme luck get the item back rather than a box of rocks.


Should a buyer tell PayPal an item is counterfeit, PayPal will often tell 
the buyer to destroy the unit/item and refund buyer everything. A charge 
back is issued to the seller and the seller is out all cost, fees, shipping, 
and DOES NOT get the item back.


If you notice, some of the sellers that do export require an irrevocable 
form of payment (non PayPal) and stipulate no warranty or returns when 
shipped out of the USA.


(3) Excessive shipping cost. Shipping cost on a heavy item to Europe can be 
in the hundreds of dollars. PayPal now requires a signature on anything 
250.00 US or more and I understand that overseas signature can only be had 
with air shipping.


(4) Not only the financial risk and excessive shipping cost, the additional 
paperwork, extra PayPal fees to convert the foreign currency to dollars make 
it not worth the effort.


A seller can sell/ship with relative safety state to state and have some 
assurance of legal protections, virtually no protections selling/shipping 
out of the US.


A thought 



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[time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals

[phil]

Advice ?
Dave M's question about that manual reminded me of a bunch of this old 
"stuff" I have just occupying space. I have an old Fluke 207 VLF 
Receiver/Comparator (I think 207-5) complete with manual/schematics as well 
as the Fluke 103A with manual/schematics.
They haven't been hooked up or used in years but it's time to "clean house" 
on a bunch of this old stuff. Could anyone give me some idea of value, if 
any these days? Perhaps as lot.


Many thanks


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Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A

[phil]

The Fluke 203A is the 1 MHz Distribution Amplifier
What's the 103A manual worth ?

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave M" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A


Thanks for that, Phil.   I have located a listing for a Fluke 203A manual, 
but don't know yet if it's for the Fluke/Montronics Frequency Comparator 
or something else from Fluke before they acquired Montronics.  Waiting for 
a reply from the vendor.  If it's the right manual, I'll buy it rather 
than bothering with scanning/copying.
I have not isolated the trouble.. without so much as a block diagram of 
the innards, it's a bit difficult to get much figured out without making 
it a summer-long project.  The trouble is that the front panel phase meter 
and the phase output jump around quite a bit, even when feeding the same 
source into both inputs.  It's like it can't figure out which frequencies 
to mix for the comparison.


In a different vein, I also have a Fluke/Montronics model 203A 
Distribution Amp.that I'd like to get into.  It's set up for 100KHz, 1MHz 
and 5MHz channels; all non-isolated.  I'd like to see the schematics for 
the preamps and output amps so that perhaps I could modify the 100KHz or 
5MHz channel to be a 10MHz channel, and provide isolation as well.   Can 
anyone help with the schematics for the 203A DA?


Thanks again, Phil; I'll be in touch if the manual turns out to be the 
wrong one.


Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net


- Original Message - 
From: "Dave M" 

To: "Yahoo Manual Exchange" ; "TimeNuts"

Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:13 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A


I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is 
acting

up.  I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics.
I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics.
I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought 
the

manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck.
Can someone point me to a source?

Many thanks!!
Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net



Dave,
I have that manual and could perhaps scan "SOME" of the pages you need 
but
it is large or thick and all the schematics are fold out pages. Most of 
the
manual is schematics. Have you isolated the problem to a board or 
section?

Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave M" 
To: "Yahoo Manual Exchange" ; "TimeNuts" 


Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:13 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A



I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is acting
up.  I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics.
I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics.
I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought the
manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck.
Can someone point me to a source?

Many thanks!!
Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net



Dave,
I have that manual and could perhaps scan "SOME" of the pages you need but 
it is large or thick and all the schematics are fold out pages. Most of the 
manual is schematics. Have you isolated the problem to a board or section?

Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "M. Warner Losh" 

To: ; 
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers



In message: <4a0d0fa0.3020...@tiscali.co.uk>
   Dave Ackrill  writes:
: M. Warner Losh wrote:
:
: > I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
:
: Thanks for the suggestions to use something else, but not an option.
:
: Like I say, I *have* fedora, I'm not planning to uninstall it as it was
: installed for me and I don't want the hassle.  HI

Then just install ntpd and be done with it.

If you want sub-microsecond sync to a PPS, you'll be disappointed.  If
you want about 10ms over a LAN, then you'll be happy.

Warner


You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just timing, 
It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy to 
install. I have 30 some servers and switching all to FreeBSD.


Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] Datum 9390 Problems

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Folkers" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390 Problems


>
>   On Mar 22, 00:00 UT, both of our Datum 9390 model GPS receivers/time
> code generators started producing erroneous day of year and actual year
> values.
>


Symmetricom could care less, no, in fact they are rather happy as they would 
like all that old equipment to be buried.

Firmware for that vintage is out of the question now. It is my understanding 
that newer receiver boards solved that issue. My question, could some newer 
generic receiver module be programmed/interfaced to replace that board? I 
don't have a component level manual on that receiver.

I too have a couple of those units that we use simply for the disciplined 
rubidium 10 meg out even though the week and year is and has been off for 
some time.
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Time offset

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time offset


> Phil,
>
> phil skrev:
>> Magnus,
>>
>> The most comprehensive collection of time offset data and reference to 
>> each
>> countries latest laws might be found at:
>> http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm
>
> As far as I can see, it works under assumption that GMT = UTC. Thus, it
> fails on my lackmus test of GMT+1h for Denmark.
>
> While it is a great resource, if fails this fine distinction that I was
> asking about.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus

Magnus,
On that same page was a link to an older archive, tzarchive.gz 
ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzarchive.gz

You will find references to actual laws and links imbedded in that for 
various countries. Your assumption that that GMT = UTC I would say is true 
from 1970 on.

GMT was the first internationally accepted international/global standard 
with various "legally" defined offsets. It was only after the advent of the 
cesium and the gps system that UTC became the standard, again with the legal 
offsets. Most older law, pre 1970 I've seen references to gmt, but when laws 
are appended for example saving time, reference is often or sometimes made 
to utc, though the old legal definition may still reference gmt.

Perhaps most lawmakers accept them (gmt, utc) to be the same with their 
local/regional offsets now that you can get standardized utc off satellites 
world wide.

Other than the "flying clock" how else can all countries of the world 
synchronize their time? I think a lot of small countries have a single 
cesium, if that, tied to gps and vend their countries "official" time based 
on that. In that case they are based on UTC regardless of the wording of 
their prior law.

I know in North Carolina, USA a law was still on the books a few years ago 
that it was illegal to look at your wife naked. Law is often slow to catch 
up with society and technology. The various countries definitions of time 
referencing GMT may too be laws that have not come into the twentieth 
century though utc (with offsets) is now the accepted standard.

Phil 


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Re: [time-nuts] Time offset

[phil]

Magnus,

The most comprehensive collection of time offset data and reference to each 
countries latest laws might be found at: 
http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm

Phil 


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C & French Clocks

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C & French Clocks


> Arnold,
>
> Arnold Tibus skrev:
>> Magnus and all,
>>
>> interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending
>> story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed  in
>> the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and
>> "universal time coordinated" (U T C) (that) is standard since
>> January 1, 1972. acc. "About the Time" :
>>
>> http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp ,
>> look into the short overview to this history.
>>
>> "Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC?"
>> - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus.
>
> Um. That's not the question I am asking.
>
>> Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right
>> answer with "A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO ".
>>
>> His article can be found here:
>> http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html
>>
>> It summarizes:
>> "The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical
>> interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively
>>  the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular
>> universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used
>> for all present use." !
>>
>> That is what I thought as well quite a while.
>> But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and
>> technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have
>> to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...!
>
> You brings me no new knowledge, only a few more links, which I suspect
> repeats what my sources already says to me.
>
> I already know what GMT is in the several senses it is. For me it is
> clearly not UTC, except for the GMT transmissions done by BBC.
>
> I object to the use of GMT when it should say UTC, they should not be
> used interchangeably when talking about international time.
>
> The question I am asking is really about which is the time-scale
> accepted for national time in various countries.
>
> So far:
>
> UTC based: France, Sweden
> GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark
>
> I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC
> based, but I do not know for sure.
>
> As you see, this is a quite different question then asking about "what
> is GMT" or "what timezone is country X".
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus


This will answers all the questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMT
. 


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Re: [time-nuts] huntron tracker advice & troubleshooting withoutschematic advise

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:39 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] huntron tracker advice & troubleshooting 
withoutschematic advise


> Hi Everyone
>
> I have consistently had success repairing laboratory instruments(my
> small business) when I have a schematic and I have consistently failed
> without one, lots of opportunities are slipping threw my fingers.
>
> I want to invest in tools that will help me troubleshoot without a
> schematic. I was thinking about getting a Huntron tracker. Has anyone
> had any experience with one? Could you feedback?
>
> Are there other tools that have helped you fix circuit boards without a
> schematic?
>
> Thanks in advance-Patrick

Patrick,
We have used that technique of quick troubleshooting some components off an 
on for forty years, long before the "Huntron tracker came about.

I first saw an article about that method in a service bulletin from Sylvania 
back in the mid 60's.
If you have an x-y scope or a scope that has and external horizontal input 
with variable gain, a small external circuit in addition to the scope will 
do the same thing as the Huntron tracker. This would give you the ability to 
play with it without spending any money.

The circuit consists of a transformer with 3 to 6 volts out, a few 
resistors, diode or two and a switch. If needed I could find the original 
schematic, but doing a google on it turned up a couple of links, noted 
below.

Inexpensive Curve Tracer
http://www.fisica.ucn.cl/sochifi/actas/pdf/A039.pdf
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_thread/thread/384a37553565e87b

As others have noted in this thread, it doesn't fix anything but can be 
useful in "some" applications. It will quickly identify a short or open and 
with experience, identify most defective "discreet" semiconductors. In the 
case of complex IC's, I doubt it would be much use. If you research the 
Huntron tracker display results, you will see the patterns displayed in 
various semiconductor situations.

As a general rule, servicing electronics, or about anything is simply a 
logic and deduction process. Basic knowledge of the components, theory of 
operation, and of the circuit under test is still necessary.

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] position determination over short distance

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Harold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:34 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] position determination over short distance


> All,
>
> I'm planning doing some experiments in distance measurement.  They don't
> deal with atomic time directly but with extreme short periods of time.
>
> I need to determine the position of a instrument with a 1mm accuracy or
> less.
> The instrument is not connected to a mechanical device but is separate &
> independent.
> The surface which the instrument is positioned on is close to the size of 
> a
> 11"x11" square.
>
> I thought of using 1 RF transmitters (not sure of freq) on bottom of the
> device near the surface.
> The surface would have RF receivers on 3 or 4 edges/corners to receive the
> signal.
>
> If each of the receivers positions are known and they then send a signal 
> to
> a central circuit (again known positions) how can I differentiate the time
> of arrival
> at the central location?  Does anybody know of a circuit/chip or system
> which would determine the time 'difference'.
> Obviously this is used to triangulate the position of the instrument.
> Light travels 1 mm in ~3.3 picoseconds so I would suspect the 
> differentiator
> would have to have that or better resolution.
> It could also use some proportional method to extrapolate the position 
> since
> the surface has a fixed size.
>
> Any ideas/thoughts?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Rick Harold

Rather vague as to what you are doing.
Have you considered ultrasonics or even laser rather than RF?


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Re: [time-nuts] beautiful jump

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] beautiful jump


> Hi Antonio,
>
> wow, that's amazing. Your prediction was pretty accurate!!
>
> So I wonder if we have one of the most sensitive gravitational sensors out
> there :)
>
> How did you correlate the jump to the new moon sequence? Did your units 
> jump
> accordingly?
>
>>University of Colima refused the new replacement unit you
>>offered them (I believe for free). I think that there is  some
>>reason
>
> Well, they said it was extremely difficult to get packages in and out of
> Mexico due to the customs, so they rather keep that unit since the jumps 
> are
> generally less than 1ppb. We lost some packages that were sent to them. 
> But  yes,
> maybe they are aware of the potential sensitivity to stellar 
> constellations??
>
> bye,
> Said
>

If the oscillator was placed inside a separate, locally created magnetic 
field, would that stop or lessen that jump?

Phil 


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time-nuts@febo.com

[phil]

I've had three of those units and all three had different gps 
receiver/boards. Most as John said, are "plug and play', however, all I have 
seen require about 40 ma to be drawn by the antenna to eliminate the antenna 
error on the display after it boots up. Most of those high current antennas 
like the older Trimble's had about 42 db gain. I'm not saying that is the 
problem, but you did say "Signal Level Low".  Most of the antenna error 
problems can be tricked into thinking the antenna is there by paralleling a 
resistor on the antenna/input. (that dosen't solve your present no signal 
problem)

I had one "crap" out a few days ago where the receiver front-end gave up the 
ghost. Most of that vintage electronics loose capacitors with age, possibly 
that is the issue. I was also wondering if a newer receiver could be 
substituted/adapted like the trimble ace 2 or 3.

Oh, a side note, unless it was upgraded just prior to being obsoleted it 
will have the gps week rollover problem. Time and frequency will be fine but 
date and week will be wrong.

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "John Miles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Help - Datum 9390 GPS Time Code 
&FrequencyGenerator


> Sounds like you're doing everything right.  9390s are plug-and-play by
> nature, so I'd have to wonder if there's some front-end damage to the GPS
> receiver.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Myers, Charlie
>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 6:59 PM
>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Need Help - Datum 9390 GPS Time Code &
>> FrequencyGenerator
>> Importance: High
>>
>>
>> I recently obtained a Datum model# 9390-52321 GPS Time Code & Frequency
>> Generator.  This unit has a Rubidium time base.
>>
>>  I hooked the unit up to my Motorola GPS2000 GPS antenna (which is
>> mounted on the roof of my house) and powered the unit up, but I can't
>> seem to get the unit to see the satellites.  I keep getting the
>> following error message on the LCD display, "Signal Level Low" followed
>> by the status message, "GPS Time Not Acquired".
>>
>> I checked the antenna and transmission line and they seem to be okay
>> because they operate my HP z3801A GPS time/frequency receiver just fine
>> and I get plenty of satellite signal level on the HP receiver.  I
>> checked the +5 volts on the antenna connector on the back of the Datum
>> unit and that measures correctly.
>>
>> Does anyone have any ideas where to look or what other tests to perform
>> to isolate this problem?
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance you can provide me.
>>
>> Charlie Myers
>> WA3RAD
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Truetime Time server NTS-100 Downconverter infowanted

[phil]

Don,
I understand this gentleman has the NTS-100, it's gps, we have a several of 
them. I have seen Truetime "downconverters" on ebay where they didn't know 
or state what it was for, but in reality it was for the old goes truetime 
receivers.
That's what I meant about being careful what you buy on ebay.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Don E. Wisdom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Truetime Time server NTS-100 Downconverter 
infowanted


> Phil,
> Its the GPS unit not the GOES
> --Don
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/4/08 10:41 PM, "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Might it be possible a word of caution is in order?
> Was not a "downconverter" used with the old GOES (L-band) Truetime 
> satellite
> equipment. That would not be the same as the down converters used on gps.
> Just a thought.
> Phil
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Scott McGrath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Truetime Time server NTS-100 Downconverter
> infowanted
>
>
>> We have the time vault units - soon to be replaced with 3500's with Rb
>> Oscillators.
>>
>> The 'downconverter' is an amplifier used for long cable runs and the
>> power injection is changed as well.I would measure what the
>> NTS-100 is actually putting out without the downconverter our
>> NTS-300/TimeVault unit puts +12 on the cable it may be much higher for
>> the downconverter.There are some TrueTime upconverters on EBAY
>> right now which should do the job
>>
>> - Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Don E. Wisdom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> I have a NTS-100 GPS model.   I am going to be putting it into use @ my
>>> employers where I have a T1 & Rooftop access & backup power.   It has 
>>> the
>>> lovely "downconverter required" sticker on the back of it.   It does NOT
>>> like my trimble bullet antenna.   Can someone let me know how I can get
>>> this
>>> working with a Andrews GPS antenna?
>>> Thanks
>>> --Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Truetime Time server NTS-100 Downconverter infowanted

[phil]

Might it be possible a word of caution is in order?
Was not a "downconverter" used with the old GOES (L-band) Truetime satellite 
equipment. That would not be the same as the down converters used on gps. 
Just a thought.
Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "Scott McGrath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Truetime Time server NTS-100 Downconverter 
infowanted


> We have the time vault units - soon to be replaced with 3500's with Rb
> Oscillators.
>
> The 'downconverter' is an amplifier used for long cable runs and the
> power injection is changed as well.I would measure what the
> NTS-100 is actually putting out without the downconverter our
> NTS-300/TimeVault unit puts +12 on the cable it may be much higher for
> the downconverter.There are some TrueTime upconverters on EBAY
> right now which should do the job
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Don E. Wisdom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I have a NTS-100 GPS model.   I am going to be putting it into use @ my
>> employers where I have a T1 & Rooftop access & backup power.   It has the
>> lovely "downconverter required" sticker on the back of it.   It does NOT
>> like my trimble bullet antenna.   Can someone let me know how I can get 
>> this
>> working with a Andrews GPS antenna?
>> Thanks
>> --Don
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups...

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups...


> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:04:07 -0400, "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>"tell me what risk I'm exposed to"
>>An angry wife !
>
> She and my (former) best friend ran away about 5 years ago.  Thankfully. 
> :-)
>
> John

I used "angry wife" only to demonstrate that we often overlook something 
that we take for granted.
>From your reply, you proved the point.



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Re: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups...

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups...


> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:34:11 +, Mark Sims <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Pointless overkill?  Ask those people in New Orleans what happens when 
>>originals and backups are kept in the same city.  I know of several (ex) 
>>businesses that wisely kept their backups in different buildings there... 
>>all were lost.
>>
>>Ask my friends in Jarrell, Texas (or what's left of them after a tornado 
>>leveled the city)...  one friend kept backups at his and his parent's 
>>house...  a lifetime's work lost...  not to mention a lot of friends and 
>>family.
>>
>>All legitimate disaster plans specify that backups (and contingency 
>>operating sites) are not to be kept in the same geographic area.  Failure 
>>to do so in a corporate setting would expose you to major liability 
>>claims.
>
> It's a big old world out there and if you look hard enough, you can find
> something to justify most any plan, regardless of how outrageous, if a 
> single
> occurance is acceptable justification.  Of course, by that standard we all
> should walk around wearing Kevlar helmets.  After all, there has been a 
> single
> instance of someone being hit by a meteorite in recorded history.
>
> If I'd lived and operated a data center in NO even before Katrina, I'd 
> have
> considered flooding to be a high percentage risk and done something
> appropriate about it.  If I lived in the high desert, I'd not worry too 
> much
> about flooding.
>
> The silliness in your "advice" is that you offered up one of the most 
> extreme
> "solutions" as generic advice and said that anything less was no backup at 
> all
> or something to that effect even though you don't know my or any other 
> list
> member's circumstances.  Let's see how your advice and its associate 
> expense
> fits my situation since I'm the one you replied to.
>
> I'm retired so total loss of my data would have no financial impact.  A 
> huge
> sentimental and legacy impact, in terms of both my writings, designs and
> digital photos.  Interestingly enough, all those types of data are backed 
> up
> multiple ways including on a set of DVDs resting in a friend's safe who 
> lives
> a few miles away.  My past design work is completely static, my photos 
> mostly
> static and my writings a little less static so updates to that collection 
> need
> be done only a couple of times a year.  They'd only be needed if my cabin 
> and
> its contents suddenly and completely disappeared somehow.
>
> I live in a cabin on gentle sloping ground about 200 feet above the 
> Tellico
> river.  Short of The Great Flood 2.0, water on the ground cannot reach my
> place.  Period.  That takes NO-style flooding off the table.  The basement 
> of
> my cabin sits on bedrock.  The combination of the gradual slope and the 
> mere
> skim of topsoil takes land slides off the table.
>
> In my basement there is one of the largest gun safes made, one that I can
> stand up in.  It is set through the concrete block wall, back into the 
> soil
> bank behind my cabin so that the door is flush with the wall.  In other 
> words,
> like a vault.  The safe itself weighs about 2 tons.  The bottom few inches 
> are
> filled with another ton of concrete and the foot of the safe is embedded 
> in
> about 3 yards of steel-reinforced concrete, some of the steel welded to 
> the
> safe's body.
>
> The lockworks are US government crypto-certified.  I paid a bunch extra 
> for
> that quality of lockwork. The combination lock is a Sergent and Green
> crypto-grade unit and the key lock is a Medico high security one.  Both 
> locks
> must be manipulated to open the safe.  Inside the safe is another smaller
> "valuables" safe, also secured with a S&G crypto-grade combo lock.  It was
> intended for jewelry but I use it for backup media storage.
>
> Even sitting in the open it has the highest UL fire rating available.  Set
> back in the dirt bank, it is impervious to fire.  The safe is both alarmed 
> and
> booby-trapped.
>
> (certain immaterial-to-this-discussion have been changed for obvious 
> reasons.)
>
> I installed this safe years ago when I traveled a lot to protect my gun
> collection.  It makes a damned fine data safe.  So let's evaluate the 
> risks
>
> Risk Covered?
> Fire check
> Earthquake   check
> general floodNA
> local flood  check*
> explosioncheck
> land slide   NA
> B&E  check**
> Tornado  check
> Riot check
> Nuclear attack   check***
> Nosey neighbors  check
>
> * broken water pipe, etc.  The basement is drained by gravity plus my 
> alarm
> system has a leak detection facility that kills power to my well pump.
> ** adding to my protection against breaking and entering are all my 
> heavily
> armed and dang

Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


> phil wrote:
>> Gentlemen,
>> Original poster is trying to "RESTORE" this entire old General Radio
>> Standard ( a rack of equipment) to it's "original" glory.
>> He simply needs a part, a unique thermoswitch or a way to fix it, not
>> retrofit an atomic engine! This is a museum class instrument, 100kc.
>>
>> May I suggest start a new thread on the better/best merits/design of
>> temperature control.
>> Makes it rather difficult to follow a thread as the subject has changed.
>
> My proposal to use capacitive sensing rather than conductive sensing
> would handle the electrode oxide issue. It is meant as a means to go
> around the sensing issue with parts at hand and only some new electronic
> design of very simple form, not the means to supercalibrate something.
>
> I guess this only shows that time-nuts are time-nuts...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus


Magnus,
Perhaps this will help understand why I made that comment.

That old "primary" standard was quite a contraption. This things heyday was 
in the order of 1950's and used up into the 60's and some models into early 
70's. Of course it was all tube equipment.

My unit model was possibly a 620, it predated what Russ has (1100) but was 
quite similar in design. Russ's unit has all the multivibrators in one 
housing where mine was each separate. I think his is a 100kc oscillator and 
mine was 50kc.

As I remember the one I had was in two 7-foot racks, a standard side and 
frequency measuring side. My oscillator was 50KC though about 300 dollars in 
the mid 6o's would have bought a 100kc quartz bar to upgrade it

The unit had each module or circuit in a separate 19" rack space all 
averaging 8 inch high The main components, a power supply, oscillator (about 
20 plus rack inches high by itself), separate multivibrators of 100kc, 10kc, 
1kc, and 100 cycles. Yes they were called multivibrators though all tube. It 
also had a syncronometer at the top of the rack, better known as a clock. 
Apparently the crystal was rich in harmonics and they made use of it in this 
assembly. That clock ran off of the 1 kc output.

The heart of the oscillator, main part of this contraption used a quartz bar 
about 3/8 of an inch square and about 2 inches long suspended on 4 springs. 
If I recall it was a single oven but it's specs called for about .01-degree 
regulation.

I don't remember all the fine details, but it had many other components (all 
seperate rack units), a separate 5kc interpolation oscillator, amplifier, 
and even an 8-inch speaker to zero beat the standard to another unit, 
talking about phase lock!

So as you can see, these vintage units only use/value is that of an antique 
or conversation piece. A 10811 would blow it away performance wise.

Now with an understanding of that old antique, that discussion was like 
putting an electronic ignition in place of the old Ford Model T spark coil. 
You could, but .. You just search for the part.

So it's not a "time-nut" issue as such other than appreciating the history 
or the evolution of time. I can see from the varied posts this is one heck 
of a super talented group. I guess we all get involved in something 
interesting and easily get carried away, as in the discussion. Granted you 
can do a given task many ways, and bantering ideas around is how things are 
born and perfected. Only problem is, it doesn't locate an "original" antique 
part, what he stated he wanted!

That old GR stuff does occasionally show up, most free to haul off it's so 
massive. A bunch of the old vintage GR standard parts was listed as a lot on 
ebay some months ago.

Someone asked what happened to my old GR stuff. I disposed of over 100 tons 
of old electronics that had accumulated including this old GR stuff.  One of 
my sidelines was the used equipment business and the sales of tube stuff 
died. I had some 15,000 feet of "junk" as I call all this stuff.

By the way, according to Bruce, that design of the old "thermoswitch" 
achieved resolutions as fine as .001 degrees.

It would be hard to build any electronic sensor of any design that is that 
reliable and repeatable (.001 degree) with a "one-time" factory calibration 
good for a life exceeding 50 years without using a similar sensor design. 
The unit in question with the electrode in mercury design lasted about 50 
years before showing it's age and misbehaving.

Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Gentlemen,
Original poster is trying to "RESTORE" this entire old General Radio 
Standard ( a rack of equipment) to it's "original" glory.
He simply needs a part, a unique thermoswitch or a way to fix it, not 
retrofit an atomic engine! This is a museum class instrument, 100kc.

May I suggest start a new thread on the better/best merits/design of 
temperature control.
Makes it rather difficult to follow a thread as the subject has changed.
Respectfully
Phil



- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Monett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


>
>  Bruce Griffiths <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  >  Max
>
>  > A capacitance  bridge  using  a transformer would  be  a  lot more
>  > stable than merely using the capacitance to vary the  frequency of
>  > an LC oscillator.
>
>  > The advantage of a capacitive sensing technique over a  light beam
>  > is that it has much simpler and potentially more stable mechanical
>  > system than when a the mercury colum interrupts a light beam.
>
>  > Unless of course on has the Mercury column move a moire grating or
>  > similar setup  such  as  making the top of  the  mercury  column a
>  > reflector in an interferometer system.
>
>  >  Bruce
>
>  Very clever! According to this web page, interferometry could give a
>  resolution of 0.15 nm, or close to the radius of a silver atom:
>
>  http://www.aerotech.com/products/engref/intexe.html
>
>  This video  shows the basic principle in case you want to  make your
>  own:
>
>
> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381543/laser_interferometer_homemade_for_20/
>
>  You can  see  from  the   movement   of  the  fringes  how sensitive
>  interferometry can  be. This should  give  unprecedented temperature
>  control, so maybe someone has already done it. A google search gives
>  lots of hits, but it is difficult to distinguish between controlling
>  the termperature of something, and the need for accurate  control of
>  temperature to get stable fringes!
>
>  Great idea!
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Mike Monett
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Bruce,
nuf said, in that case it's the expansion of toluene, not the mercury. Can 
easily see how that would work, actually rather ingenious. As always, more 
than one way to do something.
Thanks, Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


> phil wrote:
>> Bruce, what was the diameter or how was the column situated to give those
>> resolutions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Phil
>
> The thermoregulator consisted of a horizontal ring tube filled with
> toluene connected to a 13" long J -tube filled with mercury and
> containing a capillary section at the top.
> The top contact consisted of platinum wire within and parallel to the
> capillary section, the mercury entered the capillary section and made
> contact with the tip of the vertical platinum wire therein.
> The other contact was made via a piece of platinum wire sealed through
> the side of the glass tube below the capillary section.
> Thus the top contact platinum wire  fine enough to fit within the
> capillary section of the J tube and to a first approximation the
> diameter has no effect on the sensitivity which is due to the relatively
> high thermal expansion of the (highly flammable and somewhat toxic)
> toluene.
>
> Platinum and iron have the advantage that they do not directly form
> amalgams on contact with mercury and are thus not embrittled by
> amalgamation.
> However amalgams of platinum and iron can be formed electrochemically.
>
> I have a couple of illustrations of such thermoregulators which I can
> scan if you wish.
>
> Bruce
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Bruce, what was the diameter or how was the column situated to give those 
resolutions.



- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


> phil wrote:
>> Russ
>> Do you have a photo, would it be possible to build? I have a few flasks 
>> of
>> mercury and a few 10's of thousands of mercury wetted relays that some 
>> could
>> be cannibalized for electrodes. The trick here is how thin is that column 
>> of
>> mercury. My guess the thinner the column, the finer the resolution or the
>> more it will travel with a small temp swing. Better yet, possible to cut
>> that thing open and fix it.
>> I know that's more time than it's worth.
>>
>> Another thought, if the contacts have corroded in the mercury, perhaps 
>> from
>> contamination, would it be possible to "burn" the contamination off.
>> Thinking of excessive voltage/current. Perhaps making it arc internally.
>> Trick would be to limit current not to explode the thing, perhaps using a
>> charged capacitor. Just a thought.
>>
>> Oh, do you have the whole rack, all dividers and the clock? I bet the old
>> clock alone is worth a thousand bucks today. Seems like it was driven by 
>> 1
>> KC. My old standard was complete, a 5 or 6 foot rack and came out of an 
>> old
>> Hamerland Radio plant.
>>
>> phil
>>
>>
>>
> Phil
>
> NBS used platinum wires in their mercury toluene thermoregulators.
> These were constructed from pyrex as it proved more stable than
> stainless steel.
> These themoregulators had a sensitivity of about 0.001C and were used to
> regulate the temperature of oil baths,
>
> Bruce
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Russ
Do you have a photo, would it be possible to build? I have a few flasks of
mercury and a few 10's of thousands of mercury wetted relays that some could
be cannibalized for electrodes. The trick here is how thin is that column of
mercury. My guess the thinner the column, the finer the resolution or the
more it will travel with a small temp swing. Better yet, possible to cut
that thing open and fix it.
I know that's more time than it's worth.

Another thought, if the contacts have corroded in the mercury, perhaps from
contamination, would it be possible to "burn" the contamination off.
Thinking of excessive voltage/current. Perhaps making it arc internally.
Trick would be to limit current not to explode the thing, perhaps using a
charged capacitor. Just a thought.

Oh, do you have the whole rack, all dividers and the clock? I bet the old
clock alone is worth a thousand bucks today. Seems like it was driven by 1
KC. My old standard was complete, a 5 or 6 foot rack and came out of an old
Hamerland Radio plant.

phil


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


>
> Phil,
>
> I didn't believe that the thermoswitch was the problem, at first, chiefly 
> because of the simplicity of operation. Eventually, after checking wiring, 
> a carbon resistor that is in series with the thermoswitch, and components 
> around the inner oven control circuitry, I removed the thermoswitch to the 
> bench.
>
> After hooking up to a ohmmeter and using a 60 watt light bulb as the heat 
> source, I found that I could duplicate the
> a pulsating open / close as before. I first focused on the bulb leads and 
> eventually completely removed the old leads and rebuilt each one and did 
> all new soldering under magnification. The problem remains the same.
>
> I'm ready to move on at this point noting that this component failure has 
> me stumped and that the fault is most likely internal to the thermoswitch 
> (as strange as this seems). Years ago, when I first saw how internal 
> temperature worked using the mercury thermometer switch, I remarked that 
> it was one component that would never fail. HA! That statement came back 
> to haunt me.
>
> Best,
>
> Russ
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: phil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> 
> Sent: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 3:45 am
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>
>
>
> Russ,
> Also could it be a cold solder joint on the tubes connections, possibly 
> look
> good but have a high resistance. That could account for an intermittent as
> you are describing. Sometimes we overlook the simplest of things.
> Phil
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>
>
>> Russ,
>> In other words, you sound like you are not 100% sure it's the switch.
> A
>> shame you couldn't graph voltage and current going to the switch as it
>> cycles. Is it possible a cap or something else is intermittently
> failing
>> in
>> the circuit. Again I'm assuming with that resistance there is
> something
>> between it and the heater. Though I had one, I don't think I ever
> looked
>> inside the thing.
>>
>> I have seen some similar units (I think what you have) that use an
> almost
>> paper thin column of mercury. I would guess that is how they can
> achieve
>> the
>> fine resolution/precision.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>>
>>
>>> Phil,
>>>
>>> The details of the thermoswitch failure are not completely clear.
>>> Intermittently, the mercury column will pass the 78C point without
>>> causing
>>> circuit closure. Instead, a pulsating open / close with an internal
>>> resistance of 50K - 300K is observed. Circuit closure eventually
> happens
>>> at a temperature above 82C. Once an external failure, i.e. lead
> wiring,
>>> was ruled out, I used a borrowed microscope to view the internal
>>> structure
>>> of the thermoswitch. Unfortunately, this did not reveal the failure
>>> source.
>>>
>>> Russ
>

Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Russ,
Also could it be a cold solder joint on the tubes connections, possibly look 
good but have a high resistance. That could account for an intermittent as 
you are describing. Sometimes we overlook the simplest of things.
Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


> Russ,
> In other words, you sound like you are not 100% sure it's the switch. A
> shame you couldn't graph voltage and current going to the switch as it
> cycles. Is it possible a cap or something else is intermittently failing 
> in
> the circuit. Again I'm assuming with that resistance there is something
> between it and the heater. Though I had one, I don't think I ever looked
> inside the thing.
>
> I have seen some similar units (I think what you have) that use an almost
> paper thin column of mercury. I would guess that is how they can achieve 
> the
> fine resolution/precision.
>
> Phil
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>
>
>> Phil,
>>
>> The details of the thermoswitch failure are not completely clear.
>> Intermittently, the mercury column will pass the 78C point without 
>> causing
>> circuit closure. Instead, a pulsating open / close with an internal
>> resistance of 50K - 300K is observed. Circuit closure eventually happens
>> at a temperature above 82C. Once an external failure, i.e. lead wiring,
>> was ruled out, I used a borrowed microscope to view the internal 
>> structure
>> of the thermoswitch. Unfortunately, this did not reveal the failure
>> source.
>>
>> Russ
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: phil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> 
>> Sent: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 9:33 pm
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>>
>>
>>
>> Neville,
>> good answer. Perhaps the original poster could supply a photo of his
>> switch,
>> perhaps more suggestions could be made. I think we had an old gr-1100 at
>> one
>> time, it was a 100kc unit. Needless to say it was scrapped years ago and
>> I'm
>> sure it's been melted down and sent back to the usa in tin cans or cars 
>> by
>> now! I'm curious as to how the switch failed. I'm assuming it was a 
>> sealed
>> unit.
>> Phil
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Neville Michie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>> this is a second attempt at an answer, the first seemed to evaporate.
>> Mercury-in -glass thermometers have formed the basis of a system of
>> thermostats
>> used constant temperature systems of very high performance.
>> A major producer of contact thermometers was Jumo (maybe German).
>> These thermometers had a thin wire that went down the capillary and
>> contacted the mercury at the set temperature. The system could be
>> accurate to
>> 0.005 degree. The control algorithm is alien to modern EEs but used a
>> large thermal mass and a fixed rate of heating to produce a slow
>> temperature ramp.
>> Fast response by the thermometer switching kept overshoot down to
>> millidegrees.
>> A cycle time of 5 or 10 seconds kept a very low amplitude temperature
>> ramp running up and down
>> with mean temperature held quite close.
>> Locating the thermometer close to the heater caused a little over
>> control which reduced overshoot and cycle amplitude.
>> The thermometers had up to 30 mA run through the wire, but more
>> modern units reduced this to 1mA.
>> If the tip is corroded on your thermometer contact, maybe a higher
>> resistance measuring circuit may
>> still operate reliably.
>> Good Luck with the unit,
>> Neville Michie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20/08/2008, at 9:17 AM, Mark Sims wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I suspect the only place you would find a replacement themoswitch
>>> is in another unit. I also doubt that any current mechanical
>>> switch will be anywhere near stable and accurate enough.
>>>
>>> I stand by

Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday

[phil]

Although English is the worlds standard language for pilots.
"intelligent" perhaps, but not all, we put two pilots away for embezzling, 
one was buying planes to rent and putting them in his name rather than the 
company name. That's not very intelligent !

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Palfreyman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday


> When I fly in a commercial plane, the display in front of me shows its 
> speed
> in km/h and height in metres. The pilot announces the same.
>
> I would have thought that if any group of people could convert quickly it
> would be airline pilots. They are intelligent and highly trained people -
> not likely to get emotional and try and hang on to outdated and silly 
> units.
> It would make their job easier. Besides I'd be surprised if pilots in 
> Europe
> (and other places too) didn't use metric exclusively.
>
> Jim
>
>
> 2008/8/20 Magnus Danielson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Jim Palfreyman wrote:
>> > Wow.
>> >
>> > Don't tell me people still use miles? Nautical or otherwise?
>> >
>> > What's wrong with the good old kilometre?
>>
>> If the air industry would go fully metric, which they should eventually,
>> they would have to change many things, like the indicating the level in
>> foots. That alone should hurt with many pilots I guess. They are just
>> pushing the shift further into time in hope they never need to deal with
>> it. There are many manuals that needs to be rewritten, pilot retraining,
>> rules to rewrite besides changing the scale of a few meters in the 
>> cockpit.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Russ,
In other words, you sound like you are not 100% sure it's the switch. A 
shame you couldn't graph voltage and current going to the switch as it 
cycles. Is it possible a cap or something else is intermittently failing in 
the circuit. Again I'm assuming with that resistance there is something 
between it and the heater. Though I had one, I don't think I ever looked 
inside the thing.

I have seen some similar units (I think what you have) that use an almost 
paper thin column of mercury. I would guess that is how they can achieve the 
fine resolution/precision.

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


> Phil,
>
> The details of the thermoswitch failure are not completely clear. 
> Intermittently, the mercury column will pass the 78C point without causing 
> circuit closure. Instead, a pulsating open / close with an internal 
> resistance of 50K - 300K is observed. Circuit closure eventually happens 
> at a temperature above 82C. Once an external failure, i.e. lead wiring, 
> was ruled out, I used a borrowed microscope to view the internal structure 
> of the thermoswitch. Unfortunately, this did not reveal the failure 
> source.
>
> Russ
>
> -Original Message-
> From: phil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> 
> Sent: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 9:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>
>
>
> Neville,
> good answer. Perhaps the original poster could supply a photo of his 
> switch,
> perhaps more suggestions could be made. I think we had an old gr-1100 at 
> one
> time, it was a 100kc unit. Needless to say it was scrapped years ago and 
> I'm
> sure it's been melted down and sent back to the usa in tin cans or cars by
> now! I'm curious as to how the switch failed. I'm assuming it was a sealed
> unit.
> Phil
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Neville Michie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard
>
>
> Hi,
> this is a second attempt at an answer, the first seemed to evaporate.
> Mercury-in -glass thermometers have formed the basis of a system of
> thermostats
> used constant temperature systems of very high performance.
> A major producer of contact thermometers was Jumo (maybe German).
> These thermometers had a thin wire that went down the capillary and
> contacted the mercury at the set temperature. The system could be
> accurate to
> 0.005 degree. The control algorithm is alien to modern EEs but used a
> large thermal mass and a fixed rate of heating to produce a slow
> temperature ramp.
> Fast response by the thermometer switching kept overshoot down to
> millidegrees.
> A cycle time of 5 or 10 seconds kept a very low amplitude temperature
> ramp running up and down
> with mean temperature held quite close.
> Locating the thermometer close to the heater caused a little over
> control which reduced overshoot and cycle amplitude.
> The thermometers had up to 30 mA run through the wire, but more
> modern units reduced this to 1mA.
> If the tip is corroded on your thermometer contact, maybe a higher
> resistance measuring circuit may
> still operate reliably.
> Good Luck with the unit,
> Neville Michie
>
>
>
>
>
> On 20/08/2008, at 9:17 AM, Mark Sims wrote:
>
>>
>> I suspect the only place you would find a replacement themoswitch
>> is in another unit. I also doubt that any current mechanical
>> switch will be anywhere near stable and accurate enough.
>>
>> I stand by my original comments: Built a solid state functional
>> replacement in the same form factor as the original unit. It will
>> be hidden inside the oven assembly where only you will know of the
>> dastardly deed that you did. If you ever find a replacement
>> switch, you can install it and bask in its originality. Until
>> then, bask in its solid state patch enabled oscillatude.
>>
>> A non-original part that restores a device to operating condition
>> is far superior to a dead unit... particularly if the part is not
>> visible. There are lots of zillion dollar antique cars winning
>> best-of-show with modern internal engine components (not to mention
>> bondo and fiberglass under the paint).
>> 
>>
>> _
>> Be the fil

Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Thomas A. Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 1:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since 
> Sunday
>
>
>>> It turns out every one of these units stopped working sometime
>>> Sunday and
>>> they don't fully understand the cause or the fix as of yet.  Good
>>> news, I
>>> don't have a malfunctioning unit.
>>
>> Funny, but to me, having the thing stop working qualifies as
>> "malfunctioning".
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> Tom Frank, KA2CDK
>>
>
> "malfunctioning"?
> Can it be said, if you have a task that you are being paid big bucks an 
> hour
> to perform, and have to stop in the middle to go the little boys room that
> you are "malfunctioning"?
>
> A firmware update is a heck of a lot better than a "blown up" unit.
> We have a bunch of various brand and model gps units (time, frequency
> standards etc.) and several we were required to update firmware over the
> years. Still going strong after their malfunction or update.
>

Tom, sorry, no offence meant. I just couldn't resist interpreting your 
statement literally where you said:
"but to me, having the thing stop working qualifies as "malfunctioning".

Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas A. Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: IIMorrow GPS units non-functional since Sunday


>> It turns out every one of these units stopped working sometime
>> Sunday and
>> they don't fully understand the cause or the fix as of yet.  Good
>> news, I
>> don't have a malfunctioning unit.
>
> Funny, but to me, having the thing stop working qualifies as
> "malfunctioning".
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Tom Frank, KA2CDK
>

"malfunctioning"?
Can it be said, if you have a task that you are being paid big bucks an hour 
to perform, and have to stop in the middle to go the little boys room that 
you are "malfunctioning"?

A firmware update is a heck of a lot better than a "blown up" unit.
We have a bunch of various brand and model gps units (time, frequency 
standards etc.) and several we were required to update firmware over the 
years. Still going strong after their malfunction or update.



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Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard

[phil]

Neville,
good answer. Perhaps the original poster could supply a photo of his switch, 
perhaps more suggestions could be made. I think we had an old gr-1100 at one 
time, it was a 100kc unit. Needless to say it was scrapped years ago and I'm 
sure it's been melted down and sent back to the usa in tin cans or cars by 
now! I'm curious as to how the switch failed. I'm assuming it was a sealed 
unit.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Neville Michie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Restoring GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard


Hi,
this is a second attempt at an answer, the first seemed to evaporate.
Mercury-in -glass thermometers have formed the basis of a system of
thermostats
used constant temperature systems of very high performance.
A major producer of contact thermometers was Jumo (maybe  German).
These thermometers had a thin wire that went down the capillary and
contacted the mercury at the set temperature. The system could be
accurate to
0.005 degree. The control algorithm is alien to modern EEs but used a
large thermal mass and a fixed rate of heating to produce a slow
temperature ramp.
Fast response by the thermometer switching kept overshoot down to
millidegrees.
A cycle time of 5 or 10 seconds kept a very low amplitude temperature
ramp running up and down
with mean temperature held quite close.
Locating the thermometer close to the heater caused a little over
control which reduced overshoot and cycle amplitude.
The thermometers had up to 30 mA run through the wire, but more
modern units reduced this to 1mA.
If the tip is corroded on your thermometer contact, maybe a higher
resistance measuring circuit may
still operate reliably.
Good Luck with the unit,
Neville Michie





On 20/08/2008, at 9:17 AM, Mark Sims wrote:

>
> I suspect the only place you would find a replacement themoswitch
> is in another unit.  I also doubt that any current mechanical
> switch will be anywhere near stable and accurate enough.
>
> I stand by my original comments:  Built a solid state functional
> replacement in the same form factor as the original unit.  It will
> be hidden inside the oven assembly where only you will know of the
> dastardly deed that you did.  If you ever find a replacement
> switch,  you can install it and bask in its originality.  Until
> then,  bask in its solid state patch enabled oscillatude.
>
> A non-original part that restores a device to operating condition
> is far superior to a dead unit...  particularly if the part is not
> visible.  There are lots of zillion dollar antique cars winning
> best-of-show with modern internal engine components (not to mention
> bondo and fiberglass under the paint).
> 
>
> _
> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD
> with Windows®.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
> time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


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[time-nuts] SatStat talk to 58534A ?

[phil]

Does anyone know if the Symmetricom SatStat software (Version 5) will talk to a 
HP/Symmetricom 58534A

I've been trying to no avail to get anything out of the 58534A I've been using 
a B&B Electronics RS422 to RS232 Converter. It locks, I have data on various 
pairs but trying to figure how to talk to it. I'm not 100 percent on pinouts 
but tried enough combinations that I should have hit on it !

 

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks,

Phil
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[time-nuts] TBolt UK import

[Phil Staton]

For Info:
Importing 2 TBolts into the UK costs $29.11 duties and fees.
Phil G4FXY

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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ

[phil]

I Didn't look at pulse bandwidth. 2.4ns compared to 10 ns
Other than that about the same unit.

- Original Message - 
From: "phil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ


> Why an 8082A, that's a 250MHz unit. Would not an 8015A 50MHz work. I think
> it's the same only with a lower bandwidth.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "wje" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ
>
>
>>   Why, you use your 8082A! I got one for a steal a couple of years ago on
>>   EBay.
>>   However, all you really need is a fast rise-time pulse generator that
>>   has external triggering and a variable trigger delay, and can generate
>>   a +1/-1 volt swing. The frequency the tests use aren't that critical,
>>   anything 1Mhz or higher should work. The only semi-critical parameter
>>   is the rise time; the faster it is, the less trigger uncertainty you'll
>>   have. 1ns is good. :) Also, unless the delay time setting is rather
>>   fine, it's extremely difficult to actually do the anti-coincidence
>>   alignment.
>>   What I'm missing is a spectrum analyzer, so I haven't done the
>>   frequency multiplier alignment on either of my 5370s. Any tricks for
>>   doing that without one?
>> Bill Ezell
>> --
>> They said 'Windows or better'
>> so I used Linux.
>>
>>   Chuck Harris wrote:
>>
>> wje wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Freq vs time interval - simplistic answer: when you're using
>> time-gating, you're looking at more samples than in averaged one-period
>> mode. For 10Mhz, a gate of 0.1 secs is 1 million periods. In period
>> mode, you're averaging a maximum of 100,000 periods. Accuracy is
>> proportional to the square root of the number of samples.
>>
>>
>> Also, the trigger point jitter when in one-period mode affects every
>> sample, but when in gate mode it only affects the first and last
>> cycle.
>>
>>
>> The 'specifications' section of the manual gives the formulas for
>> determining both resolution and accuracy (which are NOT the same) for
>> the various modes.
>>
>> I would suggest you go through the detailed alignment procedures even
>> though the unit passes the operational checks. These units almost always
>> have drifted out of alignment in the analog front-end unless you were
>> lucky enough to get a freshly-calibrated one. You can usually
>> significantly improve channel-to-channel trigger consistency and lower
>> the jitter by doing so.
>>
>>
>> What does one do where the tests call for an HP8082A pulse generator?
>> The silly things are so rare that they are priced in the stratosphere!
>>
>> -Chuck Harris
>>
>> ___
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>> [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ

[phil]

Why an 8082A, that's a 250MHz unit. Would not an 8015A 50MHz work. I think 
it's the same only with a lower bandwidth.

- Original Message - 
From: "wje" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B arrived - any FAQ


>   Why, you use your 8082A! I got one for a steal a couple of years ago on
>   EBay.
>   However, all you really need is a fast rise-time pulse generator that
>   has external triggering and a variable trigger delay, and can generate
>   a +1/-1 volt swing. The frequency the tests use aren't that critical,
>   anything 1Mhz or higher should work. The only semi-critical parameter
>   is the rise time; the faster it is, the less trigger uncertainty you'll
>   have. 1ns is good. :) Also, unless the delay time setting is rather
>   fine, it's extremely difficult to actually do the anti-coincidence
>   alignment.
>   What I'm missing is a spectrum analyzer, so I haven't done the
>   frequency multiplier alignment on either of my 5370s. Any tricks for
>   doing that without one?
> Bill Ezell
> --
> They said 'Windows or better'
> so I used Linux.
>
>   Chuck Harris wrote:
>
> wje wrote:
>
>
>
> Freq vs time interval - simplistic answer: when you're using
> time-gating, you're looking at more samples than in averaged one-period
> mode. For 10Mhz, a gate of 0.1 secs is 1 million periods. In period
> mode, you're averaging a maximum of 100,000 periods. Accuracy is
> proportional to the square root of the number of samples.
>
>
> Also, the trigger point jitter when in one-period mode affects every
> sample, but when in gate mode it only affects the first and last
> cycle.
>
>
> The 'specifications' section of the manual gives the formulas for
> determining both resolution and accuracy (which are NOT the same) for
> the various modes.
>
> I would suggest you go through the detailed alignment procedures even
> though the unit passes the operational checks. These units almost always
> have drifted out of alignment in the analog front-end unless you were
> lucky enough to get a freshly-calibrated one. You can usually
> significantly improve channel-to-channel trigger consistency and lower
> the jitter by doing so.
>
>
> What does one do where the tests call for an HP8082A pulse generator?
> The silly things are so rare that they are priced in the stratosphere!
>
> -Chuck Harris
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
> References
>
>   1. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment

[phil]

Bill did you click on that "Download Specs" link on that page. A PDF of more 
detail.

- Original Message - 
From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment


> Phil,
>
> I had never seen a picture before.  The 103 is much more envolved than the 
> 100A.
> The 100A does not have meters, for example.
>
> Thanks for the link,
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
> phil wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>> For specs, Tucker Still sells it.
>> http://www.planettest.com/java/jsp/product_partno103A_invid33188_condR.htm
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>>
>> > Phil,
>> >
>> > My unit is a model 100A and is in working condition.  So no hurry in 
>> > that
>> > regard.  I am not sure what the difference is between it and the 103,
>> > although I
>> > think they may be similar.
>> >
>> > The model 100A is a simple panel with the 2 inputs and a range selector
>> > from
>> > 10E-6 to 10E-9.  There are output BNC's for driving a scope or chart
>> > machine,
>> > etc..
>> >
>> > When you get the chance, I, and I'm sure, others would appreciate it,
>> > thanks.
>> >
>> > BillWB6BNQ
>> >
>> >
>> > phil wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bill,
>> >> Just looked and it's Fluke/Montronics model 103A
>> >> It's a big manual if I recall, about the same size as the 207. I could
>> >> scan
>> >> it later but need some block of time on that one.
>> >> If you "need" it, I could perhaps drop it off at a copy shop and let 
>> >> them
>> >> duplicate it. Most of those manuals had large pull-out schematics.
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> >> 
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:14 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>> >>
>> >> > Phil,
>> >> >
>> >> > Would it be possible to scan those manuals and provide them to 
>> >> > Didier
>> >> > Juges,
>> >> > KO4BB, for inclusion to his manual page ?
>> >> >
>> >> > The following URL is to his manual page and the first item is the
>> >> > instructions
>> >> > for doing the uploading.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl
>> >> >
>> >> > Thank you in advance for your consideration.
>> >> >
>> >> > BillWB6BNQ
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > phil wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Going from memory, I think it's a 103. Yes I have the manuals for 
>> >> >> all
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> stuff I have.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Original Message -
>> >> >> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:00 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Hi Phil,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I am curious about your statement, below, concerning the separate
>> >> >> > Fluke
>> >> >> > comparator.  Is it the Fluke Montronics model 100 ?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If so, I have one of those and am wondering if you have the 
>> >> >> > manual
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > ?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > BillWB6B

Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment

[phil]

Bill,
For specs, Tucker Still sells it.
http://www.planettest.com/java/jsp/product_partno103A_invid33188_condR.htm



- Original Message - 
From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment


> Phil,
>
> My unit is a model 100A and is in working condition.  So no hurry in that
> regard.  I am not sure what the difference is between it and the 103, 
> although I
> think they may be similar.
>
> The model 100A is a simple panel with the 2 inputs and a range selector 
> from
> 10E-6 to 10E-9.  There are output BNC's for driving a scope or chart 
> machine,
> etc..
>
> When you get the chance, I, and I'm sure, others would appreciate it, 
> thanks.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
>
> phil wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>> Just looked and it's Fluke/Montronics model 103A
>> It's a big manual if I recall, about the same size as the 207. I could 
>> scan
>> it later but need some block of time on that one.
>> If you "need" it, I could perhaps drop it off at a copy shop and let them
>> duplicate it. Most of those manuals had large pull-out schematics.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>>
>> > Phil,
>> >
>> > Would it be possible to scan those manuals and provide them to Didier
>> > Juges,
>> > KO4BB, for inclusion to his manual page ?
>> >
>> > The following URL is to his manual page and the first item is the
>> > instructions
>> > for doing the uploading.
>> >
>> > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl
>> >
>> > Thank you in advance for your consideration.
>> >
>> > BillWB6BNQ
>> >
>> >
>> > phil wrote:
>> >
>> >> Going from memory, I think it's a 103. Yes I have the manuals for all
>> >> that
>> >> stuff I have.
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> >> 
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:00 AM
>> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Phil,
>> >> >
>> >> > I am curious about your statement, below, concerning the separate 
>> >> > Fluke
>> >> > comparator.  Is it the Fluke Montronics model 100 ?
>> >> >
>> >> > If so, I have one of those and am wondering if you have the manual 
>> >> > for
>> >> > it
>> >> > ?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >
>> >> > BillWB6BNQ
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > phil wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Speaking of the 207, is there any demand for that anymore? I still
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> old Fluke 207, the separate Fluke comparator, and a Motorola 
>> >> >> standard
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> used with it. Just wondered if perhaps I should put it on ebay or 
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> it a
>> >> >> waste of time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Phil
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
>> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> >> To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment

[phil]

Bill,
Just looked and it's Fluke/Montronics model 103A
It's a big manual if I recall, about the same size as the 207. I could scan 
it later but need some block of time on that one.
If you "need" it, I could perhaps drop it off at a copy shop and let them 
duplicate it. Most of those manuals had large pull-out schematics.

Phil


- Original Message - 
From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment


> Phil,
>
> Would it be possible to scan those manuals and provide them to Didier 
> Juges,
> KO4BB, for inclusion to his manual page ?
>
> The following URL is to his manual page and the first item is the 
> instructions
> for doing the uploading.
>
> http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl
>
> Thank you in advance for your consideration.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
>
> phil wrote:
>
>> Going from memory, I think it's a 103. Yes I have the manuals for all 
>> that
>> stuff I have.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:00 AM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment
>>
>> > Hi Phil,
>> >
>> > I am curious about your statement, below, concerning the separate Fluke
>> > comparator.  Is it the Fluke Montronics model 100 ?
>> >
>> > If so, I have one of those and am wondering if you have the manual for 
>> > it
>> > ?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > BillWB6BNQ
>> >
>> >
>> > phil wrote:
>> >
>> >> Speaking of the 207, is there any demand for that anymore? I still 
>> >> have
>> >> an
>> >> old Fluke 207, the separate Fluke comparator, and a Motorola standard 
>> >> we
>> >> used with it. Just wondered if perhaps I should put it on ebay or is 
>> >> it a
>> >> waste of time.
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> ___
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment

[phil]

Going from memory, I think it's a 103. Yes I have the manuals for all that 
stuff I have.



- Original Message - 
From: "WB6BNQ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:00 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Phil's Fluke Monotronics equipment


> Hi Phil,
>
> I am curious about your statement, below, concerning the separate Fluke
> comparator.  Is it the Fluke Montronics model 100 ?
>
> If so, I have one of those and am wondering if you have the manual for it 
> ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
>
> phil wrote:
>
>> Speaking of the 207, is there any demand for that anymore? I still have 
>> an
>> old Fluke 207, the separate Fluke comparator, and a Motorola standard we
>> used with it. Just wondered if perhaps I should put it on ebay or is it a
>> waste of time.
>>
>> Phil
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Avaliability of chart paper for Fluke Monotronics207

[phil]

Search Google for Rustrack Chart Paper

Paper is available from numerous sources but you need to "shop" for it as it 
can be pricey.

One link, http://www.phorp.com/partlow_chart_paper.htm



Speaking of the 207, is there any demand for that anymore? I still have an 
old Fluke 207, the separate Fluke comparator, and a Motorola standard we 
used with it. Just wondered if perhaps I should put it on ebay or is it a 
waste of time.



Phil

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Martinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Avaliability of chart paper for Fluke 
Monotronics207


>
> Try: http://iseinc.com/Rustrak_Recorders.htm  .  For Rustrak chart paper I
> also noted http://www.guyot-graphco.com/industri.htm  .
>
>
> 73,
> Bob, N1VQR
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bill Smitherman
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 11:51 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Avaliability of chart paper for Fluke Monotronics
> 207
>
>
> to the group
>
> I know I am going back in time and in technology, but I would like
> to get my old Fluke Monotronics 207 Phase Tracker up and
> running again on WWVB.  Can anyone advise on a source of
> the Chart Paper for the Rustrack Chart Recorder found in this
> receiver.  Years ago no problem to find.  Surely someone on the group is
> still using the old 207, now days.  Thanks for any leads
> phone numbers or sources for this strip chart paper.
>
> Bill Smitherman KD4AF[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [time-nuts] Non-impedance matched antenna cables

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Non-impedance matched antenna cables


> phil wrote:
>> I know you guys like to drill holes through hairs, but 
>>
>> As I follow the discussions on merits of 50/75 ohm cable, cable length
>> changing with ambient temperature, tuning cable to a fraction of 
>> wavelength,
>> power supply noise etc.
>>
>> Does not the "weakest" link determine it's best accuracy?  If so, the
>> receiver/electronics and internal programming seems to be the weakest 
>> link
>> and all these small nano/pico second variables discussed seems moot, at
>> least with unit in question.
>>
>> If your receiver for example computes your location with a rather large
>> error in lat/lon or altitude, that error I would think would be greater 
>> than
>> the sum of all the "small" factors/errors being discussed. I have found, 
>> at
>> least with the Thunderbolt receivers I have used, they are rather sloppy 
>> in
>> it's location fix but even worse in it's altitude fix.
>>
>>
> All GPS receivers have larger height errors than latitude and longitude
> errors.
>> As I understand it, each foot of distance is a little over a nanosecond 
>> in
>> delay so would not position/altitude accuracy be the biggest variable, 
>> not
>> to mention the proper calculation and offset of antenna cable
>> attenuation/length.
>>
>> I would be curious how the older Thunderbolt units compares to a newer
>> technology receiver/timebase in the "real world".
>>
>> Just a thought
>>
>>
> Read the posted paper.
> The error in determining the position using modulation on the GPS
> carrier can be much larger than the cable delay variations.
> The effect will also depend on the correlator type used.
>
> Also for those that have better receivers like the M12+T, MI2M T etc,
> every last nanosecond of variation matters.
> The more that is known about cable instabilities etc, the better chance
> one has of actually realising the potential performance of a receiver.
>
> There is no point in using impedance transformers until the actual
> impedance of the receiver and antenna are known.
>
> Bruce

Bruce,
I can appreciate the implication of all these small variables and the 
wanting to better "every last nanosecond of variation"



My comment was, at least as I see it, only with a more expensive receiver 
and better timebase will these "smaller" variables be significantly 
relevant. Since the discussion revolved around the Thunderbolt receiver, I 
would think it's internal errors are far greater than the expansion of the 
antenna cable or cable impedance.

Phil



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Re: [time-nuts] Non-impedance matched antenna cables

[phil]

I know you guys like to drill holes through hairs, but 

As I follow the discussions on merits of 50/75 ohm cable, cable length 
changing with ambient temperature, tuning cable to a fraction of wavelength, 
power supply noise etc.

Does not the "weakest" link determine it's best accuracy?  If so, the 
receiver/electronics and internal programming seems to be the weakest link 
and all these small nano/pico second variables discussed seems moot, at 
least with unit in question.

If your receiver for example computes your location with a rather large 
error in lat/lon or altitude, that error I would think would be greater than 
the sum of all the "small" factors/errors being discussed. I have found, at 
least with the Thunderbolt receivers I have used, they are rather sloppy in 
it's location fix but even worse in it's altitude fix.

As I understand it, each foot of distance is a little over a nanosecond in 
delay so would not position/altitude accuracy be the biggest variable, not 
to mention the proper calculation and offset of antenna cable 
attenuation/length.

I would be curious how the older Thunderbolt units compares to a newer 
technology receiver/timebase in the "real world".

Just a thought


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt EOL

[phil]

The T-E datasheet lists timing accuracy at +/-15nS (1 sigma), where did you
get the spec that says 20?

Also, the antenna connector on the T-E is a BNC, the old T has an F
connector.

Didier KO4BB


That data sheet does say 15. Some say 20 ! Perhaps ??? good question.
http://www.stepgps.com/docs/Thunderbolt-E_%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

F. BNC, rather minor unless you are looking for an identical drop-in 
replacement. I was referring to the "guts" as opposed to minor details. The 
unit they are getting is an altogether different unit from the "E" and they 
are getting the board only and in a case about half size to that trimble 
photo. It's a good unit, at least I've been happy with them. I'm sure you 
can always do better though.
Phil 


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt EOL

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
; 
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt EOL


> While the mini-T is obviously not the same, the -E version many be nothing 
> more than a RoHS compliant version of the original.  I've seen many 
> changes to devices/assemblies in the past year or two, but when the smoke 
> clears it's nothing but a RoHS-related change.  In fact, in many cases, 
> there is no actual change in the device at all. It was always compliant 
> but marketing wanted a *RoHS* part number.
>
> It's been driving me crazy...
>
> -Dave
> -- Original message --
> From: "Richard W. Solomon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> It seems the T-Bolt is being replaced with a newer version. I wonder
>> which ones we will be getting ??
>>
>> http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-383748/TBolt%20EOL.pdf
>>
>>
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ

Dave,
They are getting the old version. Among the older units the only difference 
is firmware revisions. They are getting the "board only" version  that 
requires +12, -12 +5 volts, not the 24 volt version you see on the larger 
Trimble photo of the complete unit.

Apparently the "E" is an altogether different unit. Notice the antenna 
connection is lower than the other connectors. I would bet the newer unit 
has a stand-alone receiver in it. Also note it receives 12 satellites 
compared to 8 on the older version. Most other specs are about the same, 
performance wise.

The old units have the receiver/timebase and associated electronics on a 
single board, all the coax terminals are in a line.  The lower half of the 
unit in the Trimble photo has a 24 volt DC to +12, -12, +5 volt converter.

The "group" purchased the older version of the "board only" in a separate 
smaller case. It requires +12, -12 +5 volt of which they have located a 
separate power supply for.

==
Trimble Thunderbolt ET GPS Discipline Clock Performance Specifications

General: L1 frequency, CA/code (SPS) 12-channel continuous tracking receiver
Update rate: 1 Hz
1 PPS accuracy UTC 20 nanoseconds (one sigma)
10 MHz accuracy 1.16 x 10 -12 one average)
10 MHz stability See graph on Trimble data sheet
Harmonic level -40 dBc max
Spurious -70 dBc max
Phase noise: 10 Hz -120 dBc/Hz
100 Hz -135 dBc/Hz
1 kHz -135 dBc/Hz
10 kHz -145 dBc/Hz
100 kHz -145 dBc/Hz
Holdover ±1 microsecond over 2 hours with a maximum ±15°C temperature change
==
Trimble Thunderbolt OLD Version

Performance Specifications:
General:   L1 frequency, CA/ code (SPS), 8-channel, continuous tracking 
receiver
Update rate:   1 Hz
PPS accuracy:   UTC 20 nanoseconds (one sigma)
10 MHz accuracy:   1.16 x 10E-12 (one day average)
Interface Specifications:
Prime Power:   +24V and return using DC to DC power supply (19V-34V)
  Board uses +12V, -12V, +5V and GND
  Power consumption 15 watts (cold), 10 watts steady state
Serial Interface:   RS-232 through a DB-9 connector
Serial protocoll:   Trimble Standard Interface Protocol (TSIP) binary 
protocol
  at 9600, 8-None-1


Newer "E" Version Data Sheet:
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-383329/022542-010B_Thunderbolt-E_DS_0807.pdf

Newer "E" Version Manual:
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-388613/ThunderboltE_UG_1B.pdf

Older Version Data Sheet:
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-10015/

Older Version Manual:
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-10001/ThunderBoltBook2003.pdf
 


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Re: [time-nuts] Change to Earths rotation rate due to Chinese earthquake

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "John E Burgar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Change to Earths rotation rate due to Chinese 
earthquake


> Have any of your members seen any data regarding a change to the earths
> rotation rate due to the recent Chinese earthquake? I seem to recall that
> the Banda Aceh earthquake in December a few years ago had a measurable
> impact on the rotation rate.  Many regards to the many extremely
> knowledgeable members of this group, John B.

I believe the December quake you reference is the 8.4-magnitude 2004 
Indonesian earthquake
It supposedly changed the earths length of day: -2.676 microseconds or the 
day became shorter by 0.027 seconds. As I understand it, the length of 
the day can be measured with an accuracy of about 20 microseconds.

What was affected was the so-called Chandler Wobble. Some believe it is the 
cause of the earthquakes rather than the effect. This is an extremely 
interesting subject.  I haven't seen anything on the present quake but it 
usually takes a while for anything to be published.

You might find more searching Chandler Wobble

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Another Trimble Tbolt question....

[phil]

From: "Darrell Robinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Another Trimble Tbolt question


>
> More guessing.  I wonder if the altitude you see is from the difference
> between Mean Sea Level and Height Above Ellipsoid?
>
> This document has a map on page 7 -
> http://www.avionicswest.com/PDFiles/alt2.pdf
>
> Still no expert
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Michael Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:49 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Another Trimble Tbolt question
>
>
>> Hello, All--
>>
>> Thanks to the collective savvy of this list and the
>> patient assistance of Ken Winterling  I was
>> finally able to get my Tbolt to stop requiring me
>> to configure the COM-4 channel every time I ran
>> the monitoring software.
>>
>> So-- I had such good luck with that question, I'm
>> going to pester the group with one more Tbolt question:
>>
>> In the "Position" area of the Tbolt monitoring display
>> my altitude is given as 1.4 meters.   The USGS topo map
>> and a recent survey both say that the ground level
>> at my house is 84 feet above MSL.  The antenna for the
>> T-bolt is on the top of my house 19 feet above the ground.
>>
>> If I open SETUP / POSITION and "SET ACCURATE POSITION"
>> to, say: 28 meters and enter that value, the indicated
>> altitude changes to 28 meters, but the next day or so,
>> I always find that it has reverted to 1.4 meters.
>>
>> Admittedly, having a (relatively) accurate altitude
>> display is of minor importance to me since my primary
>> reason for having the Tbolt is for a decent 10MHz reference.
>>
>> However, as a matter of principle it would be nice to
>> have the altitude display be a little closer!
>>
>> Any suggestions as to how to get the Tbolt to
>> display a more correct altitude?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Mike Baker
>> WA4HFR
>> Micanopy, FL


For what it's worth, I have two of these units and they are horrible on 
altitude but otherwise seem to be ok.
Just a thought !
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Trimble Thunderbolt Stored Position

[phil]

http://www.trimble.com/tmg_thunderbolt_ts.asp?Nav=Collection-2356
Link to the manual (ThunderBoltBook2003.pdf   about 1 meg in size)

There is a section of the manual that explains and guides you through the
monitor program.

Phil



- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Winterling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Setting Trimble Thunderbolt Stored Position


> DR,
>
> Thanks.  I already found that pull down menu but can't find an
> explanation of the multiple buttons.  It looks like you wait until the
> survey completes then simply copy the lat/long, etc info from the main
> screen to the corresponding fields in the pull down then press "set
> accurate".  I just want to understand all of the options.
>
> Ken, WA2LBI
>
> On Feb 6, 2008 5:16 PM, Dan Rae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ken Winterling wrote:
> >
> > >Greetings,
> > >
> > >I am new to using a GPSDO and have recently obtained a Trimble
> > >Thunderbolt.  It is up and running and I am using TBOLTMON to monitor
> > >its operation.  Everything is "green" except the "stored position"
> > >minor alarm.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You'll need that Ken if you ever turn it off, otherwise it will start
> > another survey.
> >
> > It's in one of the pull down menus.
> > Setup  /   Position  /  Set accurate position  would be the best guess.
> > I think it took  me a couple of tries to find it, but you'll see it go
> > green when you get it right.  From then on it will stay in eeprom, if
> > you do turn it off.
> >
> > The manual is not a lot of help, it just says the program is highly
> > intuitive! I guess it is :^)
> >
> > dr
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[phil]

> This assumes you have a calibrated scanner and a calibrated printer.
> I don't have an IT8.7 target or its equivalent to calibrate the scanner.
>
> Perhaps I should start there heck I'll just try and match it by eye.
>
> Jack

Jack, even if you had the "exact" rgb value of the original color, and if
you intend to duplicate it on an inkjet printer you would have to tweak it
anyway. Printer colors differ by small amounts from brand to brand of ink
and even with same brand in different batches. Within Photoshop you can use
the "replace color" to tweak a given (single) color. Regardless of how you
do it, you have to sample printer output and match (tweak), to even to
calibrate the printer using calibration standards. This gets you very close
unless you have a super cheap scanner and printer and even with cheap
hardware this allows you to accomplish the intended results.
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Hewlett Packard paint codes

[phil]

> Yes that works on the base color (light green), but when it comes to
> printing the graphics on the coated foil I need the RGB values, which they
> don't even know what that is.
>
> Going to try a printer (they know what color is) and see if they use their
> colorimeter to get the RGB values.
>
If you are doing this in Photoshop it's a simple task. First, load the image
of the original scan. Then on your floating toolbar click the left color box
(foreground color), that will open the color picker box. Put your mouse
pointer over the unknown color in the image and left click. Just make sure
you don't have the "only web colors" checked. That color picker box will
then show the RGB values as well as the hex value.

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] need recomendation for a portable 10mhz reference oscilator

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] need recomendation for a portable 10mhz reference
oscilator


> Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > > Why would it be very hard? For his purpose it should easy enought to
measure
> > > the frequency shift which he would allow, and achieving the necessary
shift in
> > > temperature to get the ball-park aspect should not be too hard to
acheive in a
> > > home enviorment and a thermometer.
> > >
> > > I am sure the E1938A would pull it off.
> > >
> > > Talking about E1938A. Where can I find one???
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> > >
> > >
> >
> Hej Magnus
>
> The test sheet on a typical (sample size of 1) E1938A test sheet states
> among other things
> Max slope near 0.T, 0 mHz/degree. (ie tempco < 1E-13/degree)
> So in practice, depending on what equipment is available, the
> measurement of the frequency change is likely to be extremely challenging.
> At best it may be possible to state that the frequency change is less
> than 1E-11 (substitute actual measurement resolution/accuracy limits).
>
> For an E1938A try bidding on one of  the Australian sourced Z3815A's
> that keep popping up on ebay (however bids are relatively high).
>
> Bruce

For those that wanted the HP "hockey puck" oscillator, one is one ebay now
but is closing in hours.  GPS Locked, 10 MHz Frequency Standard, HP
Z3815A/E1938A   http://search.ebay.com/330196691921

The man apparently had two of these units, the first one sold for 1725.00,
this one is up to 1005.00 now. It would make a nice Christmas present !


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Re: [time-nuts] is there a "best bet" advanced hobbyist buildableGPSDOdesign?

[phil]

> On Dec 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Scott Burris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Continuing the design discussions, anyone have opinions about powering
> > the HP 10811 oscillator?
> > I'm thinking that you want voltage regulators that are pretty quiet so
> > as to minimize jitter introduced
> > via the power supply.  To that end, I'm looking at a LT1761 for the +12v
> > OSC voltage and an LT3080
> > for the 24v heater supply..

You might try ebay for a +24 / +12 volt switching supply, problem/s solved.
I have bought them for as little as 3 bucks.
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricon 58534A manual / setup

[phil]

Tom
You are correct; it is a complete unit with a 1pps and RS422 output for time
and setup/control. I wanted to "try" to use 3 of them in/for time stamps for
triangulating lightning strike data. With a 100 ns timing accuracy I would
think it may work for my application.

The manual is available for free (download) from Symetricon if you have an
account or are an existing customer. Unfortunately I have neither. Should no
one in the time-nuts group help I'll go to Symmetricon next week and I'll be
happy to share the manual with you.

Don, Interesting on what you discovered on pin outs. I have some units with
just wires out and two that came with RJ45's on the end. I'll compare wire
colors and hope they match. Thanks for giving me a starting place with the
wiring.

They have a simple setup program for that series of units but again I don't
have it. Protocol, who knows, I have heard it is a variation on nmea, but
that remains to be seen.

Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricon 58534A manual / setup

[phil]

- Original Message - 
From: "Didier Juges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricon 58534A manual / setup


> Sometimes, the answer comes from the most unexpected places: the 58534
data
> sheet (not sure there is a "manual") is on the Symmetricom web site:
>
> http://ngn.symmetricom.com/products/Subsystems_Components/58534A.asp
>
> (it's on my web site too now)
>
> Didier KO4BB

Didier,
I Do appreciate that but that is just the data sheet. I need the pin-outs
and cable configuration as well.  I have the factory cable but without the
manual I'm lost.

It is my understanding it is available for free to download from Symmetricom
if you have an account or you are a Symmetricom customer. Unfortunately I
don't have an account, that's why I tried this board. I've scoured Google
and the data sheet is as close as I have found.

Many Thanks,
Phil


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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricon 58534A manual / setup

[phil]

Hello Time Nuts,
Would anyone have a PDF manual and/or the configuration software or links to it 
for a Symmetricon 58534A GPS Timing Antenna they would be willing to share ?

Many Thanks,
Phil Harwood
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[time-nuts] OT email problem, this is the only contact I have still working

[Phil Staton]

Hi Tim (swingbyte)

The continuous sends continue even with computer off and ADSL unplugged.
I've mailed ISP to see if they can sort it out.
I'm getting continuous mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Sorry about all this.

Phil

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[time-nuts] PTS missing link

[Phil Staton]

Hi
The link to replace the broken one is
http://www.k3pgp.org/pts160.htm

Phil

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[time-nuts] M100.pdf

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

John
It's probably still in the upload section
Phil G4FXY

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[time-nuts] M100 manual

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

Just to let anyone interested know,
I've uploaded an M100.pdf to Ko4BB.com.

Phil

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[time-nuts] hp journal 1981 03

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

The complete article is available at

http://www.hparchive.com/Journals/Low-Resolution/HPJ-1981-03-Low- 
Resolution.pdf
(4.5 MB)

http://www.hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1981-03.pdf (38.2 MB)

previously referenced by

/tvb
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[time-nuts] Re; unique clock

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

I like both clocks, but one question,
what is this windows thing?

Phil G4FXY

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Re: [time-nuts] ethernet for timing

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

cont.
The broadcast address 255.255.255.255 ip4 or whatever in ip6 could  
send the timestamp (one way)
and the two way could be used for calibration.
Now to try it out somehow.

Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] Timing on ethernet

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

I meant to add - the clock itself is extracted for use in the  
interface by a DPLL but I do not know how good it is.
Should be fairly easy to measure.
I will need to make a second independent network, I've already had my  
ear bent by other users while experimenting.

Phil

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Re: [time-nuts] timing on ethernet

[Phil Staton]

); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RETRY

Hi

I've been thinking (always a bad move), is the idea to use the  
ethernet clock to provide precise timing and the data to point to the  
waveform cycle. (Shades of gps here). Apparently 10Bt has a strong  
component at 20MHz and 100Bt has one at 125MHz.
If the entire network could be locked to a master clock, say in one  
hub, how would the repeaters be locked?
A modified hub presumably? I will continue reading and experimenting  
(wrecking!) on my home network.

Phil G4FXY

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Re: [time-nuts] Some additional RTFG learnings

[Phil Staton]

Hi

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

snipped

>>
>> 3.  In about 30 seconds, XO "FAULT" and "NO GPS" go off, "ON"  
>> comes on.
>>
>> So, the XO is definitely testing for the presence of the 10 MHz
>> reference input signal, and becomes unhappy when it goes away.
but only if crossover cable used?

This is consistent with my findings of ignores 10MHz (no Rb)

Phil

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[time-nuts] Thunderbolts are go

[Phil Staton]

Add me in for one unit

Cheers all
Phil  G4fxy

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[time-nuts] Re; Lucent RFTG-m-XO

[Phil Staton]

Finally found my notes (hint: look on both sides of the page!)
24V 410mA

RS485 / 1PPS socket (F)
pin 1 +ve going 1PPS ~4v
pin 6 -ve going 1PPS ~4v
pulses ~4mS wide
data (same connector)
pin 9 and 5
pin 9 and gnd works for serial input to a terminal 9600 8 N 1
my 15MHz was low to start with ~0.51Hz
No Gps light did not go out until on frequency regardless of gps  
signal present or not
data on pin 9 (&5) :10020032f3ac52E109cc
starts with a colon
cc seems to be a checksum
the first 2 changes to a 1 if gps ant disconnected and reconnected,  
at the same time the no gps led comes on
the zero after the 1st 2 changes to 4 if their really is no gps
the block 32...52 seems to be a count from last power up
the E109 has been constant throughout all tests

all corrections and explanations gratefully received

Should I ask for any info / manuals for
Adret 4101A  Frequency Standard Receiver
Adret 4110A Frequency Difference Multiplier
Tracor 895AS Linear Phase / Time Comparator
now or later?





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[time-nuts] RFTG-m-XO

[Phil Staton]

RFTG-m-XO KS-24019 L106B
Date of Mfr 9910

Todays setup
Antenna is Trimble pn 12960-00 which contains pn 16248-40 believed to  
have a gain 40dB.
This is on a metal plate in the apex of a loft space.

Approx 6 to 8 metres UR67 to a LNFA1X4-N distribution box.

1st on box ie suppling antenna power is Trimble Trimpack pn 16768-66,  
this also gives a rough idea that most things are working.
2nd item is RFTG unit (Radio Frequency Timing Generator OR Rugby For  
The Girls)
3rd item is a helical antenna to reradiate to a Garmin Etrex hand  
held receiver which, with DGPS, is claiming 1 metre accuracy.

I suspect the RFTGs prefer a strong signal. I will experiment.

The 15MHz output seems to wander about a little compared to a Sulzer  
oscillator. Comparing with a couple of rubidiums gives even more wander.
10 second count and parts in 10e12.

GPIB to follow, ie when I can persuade windoze to work.

RFTG fault light goes out when lock is established independent of any  
or if 10MHz input applied.

'No GPS' seems to depend on antenna current

When I received the unit I decided to treat it as a black box, so I  
put it back together and did so. (The first thing to do with a new  
toy is to take it to pieces)

Phil G4FXY

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[time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-m-XO

[Phil Staton]

Briefly:
Leave it running for at least 24hrs.
The 15MHz will slowly get on freq.
Countup is available on 1pps socket.
more when I have time

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[time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-m-XO

[Phil Staton]

I have one of these units and after various trial and error seem to  
have lock and working with stable 15MHz output.
I will look up my notes and post more. (assuming I've got this right)





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