[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
On the new board, I would add a header for GPS TXD/RXD/PPS/PWR/GND to make it easy to play with different GPS modules... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi, It looks like Synergy makes some really nice devices. Actually, I now know first hand that they do. I'm sure their module would be an excellent choice for some applications. I've made some progress on my own REF-0 project and the Denuo GPS board. I've also decided to expand the scope and tackle the much larger challenge of making a board that is fully Oncore UT+ compatible, not just REF-0 compatible. That is not a simple task by any means, but it should be interesting. My personal use for this board would be to upgrade my REF-1s. Perhaps there are other applications... http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/10/denuo-gps-retrofit-board.html Thanks, Dan W. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi The (likely) biggest issue with the M12 clone boards is that they are 12 channel. The report strings have more satellites in them than the old 8 channel boards did. That’s going to mess up the parsing algorithms if you want the REF-0 to work with all the data (record the sat info vs ignore it). Bob > On Oct 7, 2015, at 7:51 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > Bob - > > > > Thank you for reference to the Synergy SSR-6T. > > I talked to Gina at Synergy early today. > > > > The Synergy SSR-6T is still available, but now at the regular price of > $68.20 > > > > The Synergy SSR-6T GPS receiver would likely not be appropriate for usage in > the Lucent KS-24361, > > since it does not completely emulate the Motorola Oncore UT+ receiver. > > Synergy does sell the adapter board for fitting M12 series receivers > > to the larger PCB form factor of the Motorola 8-channel receivers (VP, GT, > UT) > > > > SO, full speed ahead with Dan's uBlox work on the REF0 ! > > > > greg > > w9gb > > === > > Synergy Systems SSR-6T receiver (some information from CNS Systems / Rick > Hambly, W2GPS). > > > > The Synergy SSR-6T GPS receiver has the same footprint as the > Motorola/iLotus M12 series receiver. > > The SSR-6T has a uBlox LEA-6T receiver that operates in uBox NMEA or Binary > mode. > > A version of this board has a processor that permits emulation of M12 series > messages as well as > other modes. > > > > The CNS Systems TAC32 software changes to support SSR-6T: > > Added the @@Wb message to switch the SSR-6T from M12 to uBlox message mode. > > Added "@@Wc" to switch to the boot loader. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob - Thank you for reference to the Synergy SSR-6T. I talked to Gina at Synergy early today. The Synergy SSR-6T is still available, but now at the regular price of $68.20 The Synergy SSR-6T GPS receiver would likely not be appropriate for usage in the Lucent KS-24361, since it does not completely emulate the Motorola Oncore UT+ receiver. Synergy does sell the adapter board for fitting M12 series receivers to the larger PCB form factor of the Motorola 8-channel receivers (VP, GT, UT) SO, full speed ahead with Dan's uBlox work on the REF0 ! greg w9gb === Synergy Systems SSR-6T receiver (some information from CNS Systems / Rick Hambly, W2GPS). The Synergy SSR-6T GPS receiver has the same footprint as the Motorola/iLotus M12 series receiver. The SSR-6T has a uBlox LEA-6T receiver that operates in uBox NMEA or Binary mode. A version of this board has a processor that permits emulation of M12 series messages as well as other modes. The CNS Systems TAC32 software changes to support SSR-6T: Added the @@Wb message to switch the SSR-6T from M12 to uBlox message mode. Added "@@Wc" to switch to the boot loader. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi At that time (and today) a 3801 is a “well over $300” sort of box at auction. The REF-0 box hovers between $25 and $40 depending on the direction the wind is blowing. Cost does matter …. What makes sense on a $800 gizmo probably does not make sense on a $80 stitch up project. Yes you could debate the value of a 3801 vs it’s cost. The bottom line is still “that’s what they sell for”. Bob > On Oct 5, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > I went back to the Time-Nuts archives, and noted that a modern GPS receiver > to replace the Motorola Oncore UT+ (8-channel, timing) in the HP Z3801A was > discussed 3 years ago (Sept, 2012). > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-September/070132.html > > Bob Camp suggested something like a uBlox LEA-6T and a PIC on a drop in board > to fit in the Z3801a. > "Let the GPS work with lots of sats and use the emulator to hide the extras > from the 3801. Initialize the gps from the PIC and more or less ignore the > init commands from the 3801. Sounds like a pretty involved project." > --- > The proliferation of smaller, more capable GPS receivers, at lower price > points -- as well as powerful processors -- turns the exercise into software > for command translation. > > g. beat > w9gb > > Sent from iPad Air > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Synergy GPS makes an SSR-6Tr board that speaks Motorola binary and would probably work in the KS-24361. It's on an M12+ sized board, so you'd also need their adapter board to fit it in. Their SSR-M8T board would probably do the same thing but using an LEA-M8T receiver. I believe they're selling their older SSR-6Tr boards at a discount as they update their product line. I haven't tried this out, though. Bob - AE6RV From: Gregory Beat To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 5, 2015 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone I went back to the Time-Nuts archives, and noted that a modern GPS receiver to replace the Motorola Oncore UT+ (8-channel, timing) in the HP Z3801A was discussed 3 years ago (Sept, 2012). https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-September/070132.html Bob Camp suggested something like a uBlox LEA-6T and a PIC on a drop in board to fit in the Z3801a. "Let the GPS work with lots of sats and use the emulator to hide the extras from the 3801. Initialize the gps from the PIC and more or less ignore the init commands from the 3801. Sounds like a pretty involved project." --- The proliferation of smaller, more capable GPS receivers, at lower price points -- as well as powerful processors -- turns the exercise into software for command translation. g. beat w9gb Sent from iPad Air ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
I went back to the Time-Nuts archives, and noted that a modern GPS receiver to replace the Motorola Oncore UT+ (8-channel, timing) in the HP Z3801A was discussed 3 years ago (Sept, 2012). https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-September/070132.html Bob Camp suggested something like a uBlox LEA-6T and a PIC on a drop in board to fit in the Z3801a. "Let the GPS work with lots of sats and use the emulator to hide the extras from the 3801. Initialize the gps from the PIC and more or less ignore the init commands from the 3801. Sounds like a pretty involved project." --- The proliferation of smaller, more capable GPS receivers, at lower price points -- as well as powerful processors -- turns the exercise into software for command translation. g. beat w9gb Sent from iPad Air ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
There are a number of uBlox modules (6 to 8 series; and sizes) that are hitting the surplus venues, I saw some LEA-6T in the $30 to $50 price range as well as newer 8-series. Since the PCB is being designed for the NEO size/footprint I'll look at what is available in surplus. g. beat Sent from iPad Air ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Dan it looks like the thread has re-developed. As my early test of your simple solution demonstrated. Better PPS better stability (Used a TBolt to test this) in the form of semi-short term jitter. The beauty of Dans solution is the user can select the quality and cost of the receiver used. Anything can work. I used the 6M also because of the $11 cost and at the time as a alpha tester there could have been issues. Reality, the 6M was on the shelf. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If indeed you are into a professional system, where holdover matters then > a lashup on a bunch of surplus gear likely isn’t going to measure up. Based > on about 10,000 previous posts on the list I’d say that holdover does not > appear > to matter to Time Nuts. It would be difficult to find a thread where > holdover performance > was the main topic. The focus (rightly) seems to be to keep the box locked > to > GPS all the time. That approach (if you can do it) will always give you > the best > timing. > > The “not a T” uBlox units *do* put out “TRAIM" information in the words you > can get at. The data is valid and it can be used if you wish to put the > unit > in holdover. I’m sure it works better with a well known position, but that > it not > a requisite. > > TRAIM was a really big deal back in the mid 90’s. That’s when Motorola put > it on > the Oncore’s and did a lot of publicity on the topic. They saw it as a way > to differentiate > their product in the marketplace. Much of our view of TRAIM is slanted by > the > Motorola information on the topic. > > Here’s one way to look at TRAIM: > > If you are in position hold, you can get timing off of a single satellite. > TRAIM > (just like any estimator) looks at the single input it has and says “that > must be > correct”. Give it two inputs and it can look at the solution for each and > decide if > they are close enough (your TRAIM threshold) to be correct. As you get up > to 8 or > 12 inputs, the right answer may be to throw away the single one that is > (say) a microsecond > off from the rest. Somewhere between 3 satellites and 6 satellites, the “I > need > a solid position” thing becomes less of a factor. > > There are other ways to put the device into holdover. One is to simply > look at the > number of satellites. If you are locked on to less than 4 sats, go into > holdover. It’s not > elegant, but it does work. In the case of a lash up, just translate the “I > have <= 3 sats” info into > “my TRAIM is junk”. Instant holdover. > > Bob > > > > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:44 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > > > > Actually, the Lucent software uses RAIM, and reports the value in its > > status message. If the position appears to have drifted off, or there > > aren't enough satellites to calculate the position, the software > > declares the oscillators to be free-wheeling, an expression meaning that > > the oscillators are free from discipline and are now drifting. > > > > So yes, the positioning aspects matter. > > > > Disclaimer: I haven't studied RAIM (or TRAIM) enough to know exactly > > what goes on, but that's the behavior I've observed. > > > > Bill Hawkins > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory > > Beat > > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 6:07 PM > > To: time-nuts@febo.com > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone > > > > Dan - > > > > I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent > > KS-24361 REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. > > > > The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 > > REF-1, by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. > > For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing > > and frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather > > than the position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, > > automobiles, and other GPS applications on the market. > > === > > A couple of comments. > > While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting > > the NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module > > (like LEA-6T) would be more desirable in this application. > > > > In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support > > (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are > > their current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry > > (smartphones or cell sites themselves)
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi If indeed you are into a professional system, where holdover matters then a lashup on a bunch of surplus gear likely isn’t going to measure up. Based on about 10,000 previous posts on the list I’d say that holdover does not appear to matter to Time Nuts. It would be difficult to find a thread where holdover performance was the main topic. The focus (rightly) seems to be to keep the box locked to GPS all the time. That approach (if you can do it) will always give you the best timing. The “not a T” uBlox units *do* put out “TRAIM" information in the words you can get at. The data is valid and it can be used if you wish to put the unit in holdover. I’m sure it works better with a well known position, but that it not a requisite. TRAIM was a really big deal back in the mid 90’s. That’s when Motorola put it on the Oncore’s and did a lot of publicity on the topic. They saw it as a way to differentiate their product in the marketplace. Much of our view of TRAIM is slanted by the Motorola information on the topic. Here’s one way to look at TRAIM: If you are in position hold, you can get timing off of a single satellite. TRAIM (just like any estimator) looks at the single input it has and says “that must be correct”. Give it two inputs and it can look at the solution for each and decide if they are close enough (your TRAIM threshold) to be correct. As you get up to 8 or 12 inputs, the right answer may be to throw away the single one that is (say) a microsecond off from the rest. Somewhere between 3 satellites and 6 satellites, the “I need a solid position” thing becomes less of a factor. There are other ways to put the device into holdover. One is to simply look at the number of satellites. If you are locked on to less than 4 sats, go into holdover. It’s not elegant, but it does work. In the case of a lash up, just translate the “I have <= 3 sats” info into “my TRAIM is junk”. Instant holdover. Bob > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:44 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > > Actually, the Lucent software uses RAIM, and reports the value in its > status message. If the position appears to have drifted off, or there > aren't enough satellites to calculate the position, the software > declares the oscillators to be free-wheeling, an expression meaning that > the oscillators are free from discipline and are now drifting. > > So yes, the positioning aspects matter. > > Disclaimer: I haven't studied RAIM (or TRAIM) enough to know exactly > what goes on, but that's the behavior I've observed. > > Bill Hawkins > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory > Beat > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 6:07 PM > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone > > Dan - > > I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent > KS-24361 REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. > > The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 > REF-1, by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. > For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing > and frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather > than the position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, > automobiles, and other GPS applications on the market. > === > A couple of comments. > While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting > the NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module > (like LEA-6T) would be more desirable in this application. > > In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support > (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are > their current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry > (smartphones or cell sites themselves) > > u-Blox 6-series Timing Application Note (using the LEA-6T) > https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/Timing_App > Note_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf > > IF you successfully adopt the u-Blox module to correctly "mimic" the > Oncore UT+ GPS receiver command suite, THEN you open up a larger > audience of "time-nuts" and Frequency Standard users (HP Z3801A > frequency standard universe) as a receiver alternative. > http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm > > These users may desire a "newer" GPS receiver that has more channels > (8-channel); latest generation receiver; access to the newest GPS > constellations. > TAPR might be interested in sponsoring, as a kit/module, if a wider > audience existed. > > The Heol Designs N024 receiver (France) accomplished this replacement > role for the Trimble ACE II/III GPS receiver used in the > Symmetricom/Datum
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi There are a number of papers out there (check the NIST archive) on GPS vs Gloanss timing. The simple answer at this point is “don’t bother”. Bob > On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:28 AM, Hal Murray wrote: > > > kb...@n1k.org said: >> The main thing you get with the 7’s (vs the 5 and 6) is the ability to >> switch over to Glonass. With the 8’s you get the ability to run Glonass plus >> GPS at the same time. In both cases, you get nothing from the Glonass >> constellation that’s worth the switch. In a timing application you likely >> would run “pure GPS”. > > Has anybody compared timing from Glonass to timing from GPS and/or timing > from both? > > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
kb...@n1k.org said: > The main thing you get with the 7âs (vs the 5 and 6) is the ability to > switch over to Glonass. With the 8âs you get the ability to run Glonass plus > GPS at the same time. In both cases, you get nothing from the Glonass > constellation thatâs worth the switch. In a timing application you likely > would run âpure GPSâ. Has anybody compared timing from Glonass to timing from GPS and/or timing from both? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Given that eBay is awash in various older uBlox devices at really low prices, going for the > $200 a unit single piece price of the LEA-8T seems a bit much. You get all of the core timing functions in the “not T” parts (including sawtooth data). The main thing you get with the 7’s (vs the 5 and 6) is the ability to switch over to Glonass. With the 8’s you get the ability to run Glonass plus GPS at the same time. In both cases, you get nothing from the Glonass constellation that’s worth the switch. In a timing application you likely would run “pure GPS”. The net effect is that you only loose the position hold mode with the “not T” devices. With a reasonable antenna location the timing performance of these units is actually quite good in “not hold” mode. If you are combining one with a $25 REF-0, then a $20 GPS makes a lot of sense. You *might* be giving up 5 ns to 10 ns a day of wander due to position issues. Even with the location hold, you still have about 10 to 30 ns of daily wander from ionosphere issues. Your money probably would be better spent on an L1/L2 GPS that takes this out rather than on a position hold device. eBay has these sort of devices for (almost) the same sort of money as the LEA-8T single. Bob > On Oct 2, 2015, at 7:06 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > Dan - > > I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent KS-24361 > REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. > > The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 REF-1, > by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. > For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing and > frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather than the > position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, automobiles, and > other GPS applications on the market. > === > A couple of comments. > While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting the > NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module (like LEA-6T) > would be more desirable in this application. > > In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support > (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are their > current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry (smartphones or > cell sites themselves) > > u-Blox 6-series Timing Application Note (using the LEA-6T) > https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf > > IF you successfully adopt the u-Blox module to correctly "mimic" the Oncore > UT+ GPS receiver command suite, THEN you open up a larger audience of > "time-nuts" and Frequency Standard users (HP Z3801A frequency standard > universe) as a receiver alternative. > http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm > > These users may desire a "newer" GPS receiver that has more channels > (8-channel); latest generation receiver; access to the newest GPS > constellations. > TAPR might be interested in sponsoring, as a kit/module, if a wider audience > existed. > > The Heol Designs N024 receiver (France) accomplished this replacement role > for the Trimble ACE II/III GPS receiver used in the Symmetricom/Datum > TymServe TS2100. > Their solution resolved shortcomings in the mid-1990 Trimble receiver design > and giving this Symmetricom NTP server, time IRIG-B time code generator, and > 10 MHz reference appliance a new lease on life (no longer a door stop). > http://www.heoldesign.com/index.php?module=products&action=catalog&cat=14&id=54 > > w9gb > > Sent from iPad Air > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Actually, the Lucent software uses RAIM, and reports the value in its status message. If the position appears to have drifted off, or there aren't enough satellites to calculate the position, the software declares the oscillators to be free-wheeling, an expression meaning that the oscillators are free from discipline and are now drifting. So yes, the positioning aspects matter. Disclaimer: I haven't studied RAIM (or TRAIM) enough to know exactly what goes on, but that's the behavior I've observed. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory Beat Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 6:07 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone Dan - I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent KS-24361 REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 REF-1, by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing and frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather than the position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, automobiles, and other GPS applications on the market. === A couple of comments. While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting the NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module (like LEA-6T) would be more desirable in this application. In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are their current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry (smartphones or cell sites themselves) u-Blox 6-series Timing Application Note (using the LEA-6T) https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/Timing_App Note_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf IF you successfully adopt the u-Blox module to correctly "mimic" the Oncore UT+ GPS receiver command suite, THEN you open up a larger audience of "time-nuts" and Frequency Standard users (HP Z3801A frequency standard universe) as a receiver alternative. http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm These users may desire a "newer" GPS receiver that has more channels (8-channel); latest generation receiver; access to the newest GPS constellations. TAPR might be interested in sponsoring, as a kit/module, if a wider audience existed. The Heol Designs N024 receiver (France) accomplished this replacement role for the Trimble ACE II/III GPS receiver used in the Symmetricom/Datum TymServe TS2100. Their solution resolved shortcomings in the mid-1990 Trimble receiver design and giving this Symmetricom NTP server, time IRIG-B time code generator, and 10 MHz reference appliance a new lease on life (no longer a door stop). http://www.heoldesign.com/index.php?module=products&action=catalog&cat=1 4&id=54 w9gb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Gregory, Thanks for your comments. You are absolutely right that a timing GPS module is required to make this a proper Time-Nuts solution. I know that many on the list have been thinking the same thing when they read my posts. Cost alone is what has prevented me from going directly to that approach. Even at eBay or Ali Express prices, 6T modules are six to seven times more expensive than the 6M modules. I have decided to develop this in an iterative fashion using lower-cost modules for testing. This way I can get the bulk of the development done at a low cost, and then add in a higher grade module when the time is right. I am already working on a version of the board that uses the LEA-6T module. The footprint on the board would be upwards-compatible with the LEA-M8T module, with it's GNSS all-in-view features. That would surely interest a lot of folks. Of course, that would come at a significantly increased cost, but at least the option will be there. I also agree that translating the GPS strings to the Oncore format would open up the usage of this board to more applications. This is one of the reasons I have had a microcontroller between the GPS and REF-0 from the very beginning. Early on this enabled the quick fix of sending canned strings. But newer versions of my code instead translate important information such as fix status and sawtooth correction. This can easily be extended to correctly populate all of the messages. And with even more time invested, the micro can be programmed to translate two-way messages and commands to fully replicate an Oncore. The hardware will soon be done to enable all of that. What you see in the Denuo GPS board is just one more step forward in the project. I hope I can eventually bring it to a very satisfying and Time-Nutty conclusion. Best regards, Dan W. On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > Dan - > > I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent > KS-24361 REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. > > The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 > REF-1, by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. > For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing and > frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather than the > position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, automobiles, and > other GPS applications on the market. > === > A couple of comments. > While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting the > NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module (like > LEA-6T) would be more desirable in this application. > > In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support > (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are > their current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry > (smartphones or cell sites themselves) > > u-Blox 6-series Timing Application Note (using the LEA-6T) > > https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf > > IF you successfully adopt the u-Blox module to correctly "mimic" the > Oncore UT+ GPS receiver command suite, THEN you open up a larger audience > of "time-nuts" and Frequency Standard users (HP Z3801A frequency standard > universe) as a receiver alternative. > http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm > > These users may desire a "newer" GPS receiver that has more channels > (8-channel); latest generation receiver; access to the newest GPS > constellations. > TAPR might be interested in sponsoring, as a kit/module, if a wider > audience existed. > > The Heol Designs N024 receiver (France) accomplished this replacement role > for the Trimble ACE II/III GPS receiver used in the Symmetricom/Datum > TymServe TS2100. > Their solution resolved shortcomings in the mid-1990 Trimble receiver > design and giving this Symmetricom NTP server, time IRIG-B time code > generator, and 10 MHz reference appliance a new lease on life (no longer a > door stop). > > http://www.heoldesign.com/index.php?module=products&action=catalog&cat=14&id=54 > > w9gb > > Sent from iPad Air > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Dan - I have been following your experimentation with the surplus Lucent KS-24361 REF-0 module, to transform it into a standalone GPSDO. The original usage of the classic Oncore UT+ GPS receiver for KS-24361 REF-1, by Symmetricom / Datum for Lucent, was deliberate. For usage at a cellular data/telecom site, the focus was on the timing and frequency discipline from the GPS satellite transmission, rather than the position or dead reckoning aspects -- used by smartphones, automobiles, and other GPS applications on the market. === A couple of comments. While I can appreciate being economical (main criteria) and selecting the NEO-6M receiver, I believe that a u-Blox timing specific module (like LEA-6T) would be more desirable in this application. In addition, the u-Blox 6-series is the trailing edge of product support (market demand dictates its continuance), while the 7 and 8-series are their current modules (largely for the cellular / mobile industry (smartphones or cell sites themselves) u-Blox 6-series Timing Application Note (using the LEA-6T) https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf IF you successfully adopt the u-Blox module to correctly "mimic" the Oncore UT+ GPS receiver command suite, THEN you open up a larger audience of "time-nuts" and Frequency Standard users (HP Z3801A frequency standard universe) as a receiver alternative. http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm These users may desire a "newer" GPS receiver that has more channels (8-channel); latest generation receiver; access to the newest GPS constellations. TAPR might be interested in sponsoring, as a kit/module, if a wider audience existed. The Heol Designs N024 receiver (France) accomplished this replacement role for the Trimble ACE II/III GPS receiver used in the Symmetricom/Datum TymServe TS2100. Their solution resolved shortcomings in the mid-1990 Trimble receiver design and giving this Symmetricom NTP server, time IRIG-B time code generator, and 10 MHz reference appliance a new lease on life (no longer a door stop). http://www.heoldesign.com/index.php?module=products&action=catalog&cat=14&id=54 w9gb Sent from iPad Air ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi, Here's a little progress report on my REF-0 project. Though there hasn't been a lot of activity in this thread recently, I do hope that some more people have successfully gotten their REF-0s up and running. My goal all along has been to retrofit a modern GPS into the REF-0. Over the past couple of months I've designed a few small boards and gotten much closer to a solution I'll be happy with. I first turned a prototype I previously posted about into a PCB. That worked fine and installed in the REF-0 without issues. Here is the write-up: http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/09/custom-pcb-for-ks-24361-ref-0.html I also made a small breakout board for the U-blox NEO-6M GPS module in order to test my layout. That worked extremely well, and allowed me to proceed with a larger integrated design. You can find a post about that on my blog if you are curious. Recently, I finished the design of a complete GPS retrofit board. It is the size of an Oncore GPS and mounts just like one in the REF-0. I am calling it the Denuo GPS. All power and signalling goes through a header, so there are no jumper wires internally or externally. The GPS module is the NEO-6M. Combined with a small dongle I made for the interface connector, it creates an almost plug-and-play solution for a GPS retrofit in the REF-0. You can see a render of the board in the link below. I am looking forward to getting those PCBs back and doing some testing. http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/09/sneak-peek.html I have a lot more to talk about, especially in regards to the choice of the GPS module and timing features versus cost. I also have at least two other board variations I am working on. One will be a step down in complexity, essentially making the REF-0 a cleanup oscillator for Rubidium standards and the like. There will also be a more advanced board with a higher grade of GPS module and some really cool features to enable GPSDO experimentation. But I will save all of that for another day and another post. More to come. Thanks, Dan W. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
To add a note to this fine conversation. I have built up several different arduinos to drive the REF 0s using Dans program. They all worked and the last unit is the postage stamp size arduino mini. Interestingly its close to the same form factor as the ublox neo6 I have been using. A $11 wonder. Better GPS receivers yield even better results. For the fun of it I hooked up a TBolt 1 PPS and because Dan uses an interrupt to capture the TBolt 1PPS 10 us pulse it all works just fine. I find that with a TBolt the reference jitters about + - 5 ns. Its a slow forward and backward movement. But it does not slip from what I have seen. The 15 pin connectors arrived from ebay. 10 for $3.59 and work perfectly. I was worried that there might be an issue with pins 8-10. Not the case. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:29 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > Thanks for doing these write-ups. > > I've bought several units from the US supplier with the intention of > getting shipping down to a sensible level, and have a lash-up based on your > article which has had all the first few running. They won't lock to > anything far off 1pps so need a properly working receiver or source > (perhaps another ref-0) to test. An attempt to generate a 1pps signal from > the micro as a quick test was a failure - too much variation or error for > the loop to track. > > I'd also like to use the spare space inside the box - I'm planning to mount > a beaglebone black there as a self-contained NTP server and reference > source.The BBB can run gpsd to accept a wide range of receivers and supply > the packets to the ref-0 with or without actual data. Perhaps your pcb > design could allow for a suitable header as an alternative to the inboard > micro. > > I'm don't yet know what receiver to choose : I'm currently using it with a > Symmetricon 58534A and also have some Oncore modules which will, of > course, fit neatly in the box. > > I'm also interested in what could to be done to the 10MHz output. Bob has > mentioned that it's not ideal but I'm not sure how to evaluate it or clean > it up. Maybe that's a different project that would appeal to someone else > here. > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Daniel Watson > wrote: > > > All, > > > > I hope some more of you have had luck getting your REF-0s running > > standalone. > > > > My earlier write-ups were focused on the bare minimum connections and > code > > needed to make a REF-0 work. Of course, external connections are not > ideal > > for long-term operations. The real end-state here is to have a nice board > > with a modern GPS that will install cleanly inside the REF-0. I have > > completed another write-up showing my work toward that goal. I show how > you > > can access all of the necessary pins on the REF-0 directly on the board, > > without using the external Interface connector. I also show a simple > > prototype of my custom REF-0 GPS board. > > > > Here's the write-up: > > > > > > > http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/prototyping-gps-board-for-ks-24361-ref-0.html > > > > > > If you just want to solder something together, you can easily house your > > microcontroller and GPS on some protoboard as I did. This is the > protoboard > > I used, it fits almost perfectly where a real Oncore GPS would go. I just > > had to widen the mounting holes with a drill. > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/10Pcs-Double-Sided-Protoboard-Prototyping/dp/B00NQ387TY > > > > > > Beyond the prototype though, I personally want a nice PCB with a Ublox on > > it for my REF-0s. I plan to work on that as I have time. Though now that > my > > summer break is over, time is a bit harder to find. :) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Dan W. > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Thanks for doing these write-ups. I've bought several units from the US supplier with the intention of getting shipping down to a sensible level, and have a lash-up based on your article which has had all the first few running. They won't lock to anything far off 1pps so need a properly working receiver or source (perhaps another ref-0) to test. An attempt to generate a 1pps signal from the micro as a quick test was a failure - too much variation or error for the loop to track. I'd also like to use the spare space inside the box - I'm planning to mount a beaglebone black there as a self-contained NTP server and reference source.The BBB can run gpsd to accept a wide range of receivers and supply the packets to the ref-0 with or without actual data. Perhaps your pcb design could allow for a suitable header as an alternative to the inboard micro. I'm don't yet know what receiver to choose : I'm currently using it with a Symmetricon 58534A and also have some Oncore modules which will, of course, fit neatly in the box. I'm also interested in what could to be done to the 10MHz output. Bob has mentioned that it's not ideal but I'm not sure how to evaluate it or clean it up. Maybe that's a different project that would appeal to someone else here. On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Daniel Watson wrote: > All, > > I hope some more of you have had luck getting your REF-0s running > standalone. > > My earlier write-ups were focused on the bare minimum connections and code > needed to make a REF-0 work. Of course, external connections are not ideal > for long-term operations. The real end-state here is to have a nice board > with a modern GPS that will install cleanly inside the REF-0. I have > completed another write-up showing my work toward that goal. I show how you > can access all of the necessary pins on the REF-0 directly on the board, > without using the external Interface connector. I also show a simple > prototype of my custom REF-0 GPS board. > > Here's the write-up: > > > http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/prototyping-gps-board-for-ks-24361-ref-0.html > > > If you just want to solder something together, you can easily house your > microcontroller and GPS on some protoboard as I did. This is the protoboard > I used, it fits almost perfectly where a real Oncore GPS would go. I just > had to widen the mounting holes with a drill. > > > http://www.amazon.com/10Pcs-Double-Sided-Protoboard-Prototyping/dp/B00NQ387TY > > > Beyond the prototype though, I personally want a nice PCB with a Ublox on > it for my REF-0s. I plan to work on that as I have time. Though now that my > summer break is over, time is a bit harder to find. :) > > > Regards, > > Dan W. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
All, I hope some more of you have had luck getting your REF-0s running standalone. My earlier write-ups were focused on the bare minimum connections and code needed to make a REF-0 work. Of course, external connections are not ideal for long-term operations. The real end-state here is to have a nice board with a modern GPS that will install cleanly inside the REF-0. I have completed another write-up showing my work toward that goal. I show how you can access all of the necessary pins on the REF-0 directly on the board, without using the external Interface connector. I also show a simple prototype of my custom REF-0 GPS board. Here's the write-up: http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/prototyping-gps-board-for-ks-24361-ref-0.html If you just want to solder something together, you can easily house your microcontroller and GPS on some protoboard as I did. This is the protoboard I used, it fits almost perfectly where a real Oncore GPS would go. I just had to widen the mounting holes with a drill. http://www.amazon.com/10Pcs-Double-Sided-Protoboard-Prototyping/dp/B00NQ387TY Beyond the prototype though, I personally want a nice PCB with a Ublox on it for my REF-0s. I plan to work on that as I have time. Though now that my summer break is over, time is a bit harder to find. :) Regards, Dan W. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
HI The phase noise and spur plots I posted earlier on the 10 MHz out of the REF-0 are at least as bad on that test point. Bob > On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:48 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts > wrote: > > > I also did a quick write up recently about how I added the 10MHz test point > output to my REF-1. > > > Hi Daniel > > Many thanks for your 10Mhz write up for the REF-1, that's very interesting > and a nice bit of detective work. > > Back in January I took a quick look at the underside of a REF-1 board in > the area beneath the oscillator and identified what seemed to be a pick off > point very close to the output of the 10MHz doubler. > I'm pretty sure it was sinusoidal but can't remember for sure now and I > never did find the time to get back to it and check it properly. > > I'll attach a copy of my very brief notes just in case it might give you a > starting point for your search for a cleaner signal but if it doesn't get > through to the list I'll send you a copy direct. > > Regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR<10MHz Pick Off.pdf>___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Nigel, this is very useful. Thanks. I don't particularly like how the 10MHz test point signal is generated. I made my modification easily reversible so that I could change it when I found a better way. I will explore the area you describe in your notes. Best regards Dan > On Aug 15, 2015, at 8:48 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts > wrote: > > > I also did a quick write up recently about how I added the 10MHz test point > output to my REF-1. > > > Hi Daniel > > Many thanks for your 10Mhz write up for the REF-1, that's very interesting > and a nice bit of detective work. > > Back in January I took a quick look at the underside of a REF-1 board in > the area beneath the oscillator and identified what seemed to be a pick off > point very close to the output of the 10MHz doubler. > I'm pretty sure it was sinusoidal but can't remember for sure now and I > never did find the time to get back to it and check it properly. > > I'll attach a copy of my very brief notes just in case it might give you a > starting point for your search for a cleaner signal but if it doesn't get > through to the list I'll send you a copy direct. > > Regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > <10MHz Pick Off.pdf> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
I also did a quick write up recently about how I added the 10MHz test point output to my REF-1. Hi Daniel Many thanks for your 10Mhz write up for the REF-1, that's very interesting and a nice bit of detective work. Back in January I took a quick look at the underside of a REF-1 board in the area beneath the oscillator and identified what seemed to be a pick off point very close to the output of the 10MHz doubler. I'm pretty sure it was sinusoidal but can't remember for sure now and I never did find the time to get back to it and check it properly. I'll attach a copy of my very brief notes just in case it might give you a starting point for your search for a cleaner signal but if it doesn't get through to the list I'll send you a copy direct. Regards Nigel GM8PZR 10MHz Pick Off.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
All, I have posted some example code for running the REF-0 standalone. There is an Arduino sketch and some AVR C code. (Just in time for the weekend) http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/example-code-for-ks-24361-ref-0.html I also did a quick write up recently about how I added the 10MHz test point output to my REF-1. That's on the blog as well if you are interested. Regards, Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob OK my favorite places to start and order from are Mouser and Digikey. Not to go off track here but as of late both sites don't return what you are asking for. The datasheets are often inaccurate or not there. This connector was indeed one of those strange events. Oh no problem always returning a right angle female. But the straight male just wasn't going to happen. Yes I understand the filters. But lets leave it alone. Its a distraction to the important thread. Its the smallest contribution I could add to everyones hard work. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If you are in a hurry, the ever popular guys like Mouser, Digikey, > Farnell, and RS > all sell both the 9 pin and 15 pin connectors that mate up to the KS > boxes. You are > indeed correct that in bulk, the Chinese outfits have really attractive > prices. Just the > connector body for the the same connectors you got for 35 cents are > $1 > from the “other guys”. > > One interesting approach is to work the shipping side of the deal. > Effectively your > delivered price went up to 55 cents after delivery. I’ve taken to doing > bulk orders at > around the $50 level, all from the same guy. Often there is a discount off > the top on > the parts plus free or greatly reduced shipping. Not all the sellers go > for it, but there > are *lots* of them to pick between. > > So far, at least to my very tired old eyes, the stuff all looks the same > regardless of source. > I might not say that for a space shot application. For my basement, it’s > same / same. > They aren’t big enough to take up a lot of space, so stocking up from time > to time is > not that big a deal. Already in stock on the bench is the best delivery ... > > Bob > > > On Aug 13, 2015, at 3:01 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > OK I can contribute at least something. > > Given the popular REF1 thread. Ebay has some 15 pin connectors that > appear > > to be whats needed 10 for $3.49 shipping from China makes it $5.50. The > all > > sell singles at 99 cents. > > I ordered a set today and should see them in several weeks. > > Granted they are not the longer pin connectors on the official plugs but > I > > suspect that does not matter for time-nuts use. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > > >> Re the Ref-0 Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference > >> between PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words? > >> Don > >> > >> Bob Camp > >>> Hi > >>> > >>> Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words > dump > >> from > >>> pForth. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's > >> going > on? > > Bob Camp > > Hi > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> "If you don't know what it is, > >> don't poke it." > >> Ghost in the Shell > >> --- > >> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" > >> > >> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL > >> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road > >> Huson, MT, 59846 > >> mailing address: POBox 404 > >> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 > >> > >> VOX 406-626-4304 > >> CEL 406-241-5093 > >> Skype: buffler2 > >> www.lightningforensics.com > >> www.sixmilesystems.com > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi If you are in a hurry, the ever popular guys like Mouser, Digikey, Farnell, and RS all sell both the 9 pin and 15 pin connectors that mate up to the KS boxes. You are indeed correct that in bulk, the Chinese outfits have really attractive prices. Just the connector body for the the same connectors you got for 35 cents are > $1 from the “other guys”. One interesting approach is to work the shipping side of the deal. Effectively your delivered price went up to 55 cents after delivery. I’ve taken to doing bulk orders at around the $50 level, all from the same guy. Often there is a discount off the top on the parts plus free or greatly reduced shipping. Not all the sellers go for it, but there are *lots* of them to pick between. So far, at least to my very tired old eyes, the stuff all looks the same regardless of source. I might not say that for a space shot application. For my basement, it’s same / same. They aren’t big enough to take up a lot of space, so stocking up from time to time is not that big a deal. Already in stock on the bench is the best delivery ... Bob > On Aug 13, 2015, at 3:01 PM, paul swed wrote: > > OK I can contribute at least something. > Given the popular REF1 thread. Ebay has some 15 pin connectors that appear > to be whats needed 10 for $3.49 shipping from China makes it $5.50. The all > sell singles at 99 cents. > I ordered a set today and should see them in several weeks. > Granted they are not the longer pin connectors on the official plugs but I > suspect that does not matter for time-nuts use. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Don Latham wrote: > >> Re the Ref-0 Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference >> between PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words? >> Don >> >> Bob Camp >>> Hi >>> >>> Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump >> from >>> pForth. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's >> going on? Bob Camp > Hi >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> "If you don't know what it is, >> don't poke it." >> Ghost in the Shell >> --- >> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" >> >> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL >> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road >> Huson, MT, 59846 >> mailing address: POBox 404 >> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 >> >> VOX 406-626-4304 >> CEL 406-241-5093 >> Skype: buffler2 >> www.lightningforensics.com >> www.sixmilesystems.com >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
OK I can contribute at least something. Given the popular REF1 thread. Ebay has some 15 pin connectors that appear to be whats needed 10 for $3.49 shipping from China makes it $5.50. The all sell singles at 99 cents. I ordered a set today and should see them in several weeks. Granted they are not the longer pin connectors on the official plugs but I suspect that does not matter for time-nuts use. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Don Latham wrote: > Re the Ref-0 Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference > between PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words? > Don > > Bob Camp > > Hi > > > > Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump > from > > pForth. > > > > Bob > > > > > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > >> > >> Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's > going > >> on? > >> > >> Bob Camp > >>> Hi > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > -- > "If you don't know what it is, > don't poke it." > Ghost in the Shell > --- > "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" > > Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL > Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road > Huson, MT, 59846 > mailing address: POBox 404 > Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 > > VOX 406-626-4304 > CEL 406-241-5093 > Skype: buffler2 > www.lightningforensics.com > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Re the Ref-0 Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference between PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words? Don Bob Camp > Hi > > Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump from > pForth. > > Bob > > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: >> >> Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going >> on? >> >> Bob Camp >>> Hi > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > -- "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell --- "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mailing address: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 CEL 406-241-5093 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi, for use in audio setup we got some Ref-0. The audio project was quit (the better is the enemy of good ,-). Please contact me directly rather than via the list if you're interested in one or more (50 EUR each + shipping costs within EU). Ulli Am 12.08.2015 um 01:16 schrieb Bob Camp: I suspect that postage throughout Europe would be much better after a bulk transit over the ocean. ---snip--- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Adrian, I've recently ordered two pairs to go with my earlier REF-1 units and found there was quite a significant saving on postage, even with the original packaging which I decided was a safer option, but don't forget there's a very high chance these days that you'll get hit with VAT and handling charges on import. Not much seems to scrape through anymore, unless the value is misquoted as is often the case from China but not generally elsewhere, and if you push the value of single shipment too high you could also be liable for customs duty !! Regards Nigel GM8PZR I've ordered some. Please contact me directly rather than via the list if you're interested in one or more. The seller will repackaged them to reduce shipping so they won't be boxed quite as advertised but should be good enough. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
I've ordered some. Please contact me directly rather than via the list if you're interested in one or more. The seller will repackaged them to reduce shipping so they won't be boxed quite as advertised but should be good enough. On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > I suspect that postage throughout Europe would be much better after a bulk > transit over the ocean. The units are already (or maybe better put still) > packed in > air shipping boxes with “Korean Air” tags on them. The seller then > re-boxes those > inside another box. I would not have any real fear of them not making the > trip over > the ocean in fine shape. Once they get there, you should be able to > re-label the > original boxes and mail them out. Certainly not a “no hassle” deal, but > pretty > simple as these things go. > > Bob > > > On Aug 11, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > > > > These seem a good deal but the shipping price to the UK puts me off a > bit - > > it's 3 x the price of the unit. > > > > I've looked into shipping a number of them to get a better rate and it > > seems worthwhile. I'm happy to sell them on to time-nuts at cost (will > > include shipping and duty) and ebay the remainder. Would anyone be > > interested ? > > > > -adrian > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 2:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > >> Dan > >> A really nice blog even with colored dots on the pins. Can't get much > >> better then that. Fantastic on the strings that are needed to keep the > Ref > >> 0 happy and there timing. > >> Regards > >> Paul > >> WB8TSL > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> > >>> Hi > >>> > >>> Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words > dump > >>> from > >>> pForth. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>> > >>> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's > >>> going on? > > Bob Camp > > Hi > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi I suspect that postage throughout Europe would be much better after a bulk transit over the ocean. The units are already (or maybe better put still) packed in air shipping boxes with “Korean Air” tags on them. The seller then re-boxes those inside another box. I would not have any real fear of them not making the trip over the ocean in fine shape. Once they get there, you should be able to re-label the original boxes and mail them out. Certainly not a “no hassle” deal, but pretty simple as these things go. Bob > On Aug 11, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > > These seem a good deal but the shipping price to the UK puts me off a bit - > it's 3 x the price of the unit. > > I've looked into shipping a number of them to get a better rate and it > seems worthwhile. I'm happy to sell them on to time-nuts at cost (will > include shipping and duty) and ebay the remainder. Would anyone be > interested ? > > -adrian > > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 2:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > >> Dan >> A really nice blog even with colored dots on the pins. Can't get much >> better then that. Fantastic on the strings that are needed to keep the Ref >> 0 happy and there timing. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump >>> from >>> pForth. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's >>> going on? Bob Camp > Hi >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
These seem a good deal but the shipping price to the UK puts me off a bit - it's 3 x the price of the unit. I've looked into shipping a number of them to get a better rate and it seems worthwhile. I'm happy to sell them on to time-nuts at cost (will include shipping and duty) and ebay the remainder. Would anyone be interested ? -adrian On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 2:47 PM, paul swed wrote: > Dan > A really nice blog even with colored dots on the pins. Can't get much > better then that. Fantastic on the strings that are needed to keep the Ref > 0 happy and there timing. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > > > Hi > > > > Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump > > from > > pForth. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > > > > > Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's > > going on? > > > > > > Bob Camp > > >> Hi > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Dan A really nice blog even with colored dots on the pins. Can't get much better then that. Fantastic on the strings that are needed to keep the Ref 0 happy and there timing. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump > from > pForth. > > Bob > > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > > > Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's > going on? > > > > Bob Camp > >> Hi > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump from pForth. Bob > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going > on? > > Bob Camp >> Hi ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
All, I have completed a write-up on how to make the REF-0 run standalone. As there is a lot to cover, I decided to split it up into two (or more) parts. This first part summarizes what is required on the interface pins, and details what I have discovered about the serial string timing. If you know how to program a microcontroller and you have a GPS and a single schmitt inverter IC handy, you can do this right now. To save bandwidth on the list and have a nice simple link, I posted this on my "blog" (which I rarely actually use). Here is the link: http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/standalone-operation-of-lucent-ks-24361.html I will do a second write-up with some code. Nearly any microcontroller with a UART will work, even an Arduino. I will do example AVR and PIC code. I have referenced and credited many people in this write-up who helped with this project, or worked on the KS-24361 units in general. If your name is not listed and you did work on deciphering these boxes, please email me off-list. I will add you. If your name is listed and you don't want it to be for some reason, email me. If you see problems with what I have written, email me. This procedure is brand new. Problems may be found. But at least progress has been made. I hope this information is useful. Good luck getting your REF-0 running standalone. Mine has been for several hours and it's doing great. Over days and weeks we will see how these units do long-term running by themselves. Thanks, Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going on? Bob Camp > Hi > > Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach > used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well > to these devices. > > Bob > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham wrote: >> >> Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? >> Don >> >> Bob Camp >>> Hi >>> >>> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! >>> >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: >>>> >>>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run >>>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal >>>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and >>>> disciplining to the 1PPS. >>>> >>>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things >>>> are >>>> looking very good. >>>> >>>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will >>>> post >>>> that here when I am done. >>>> >>>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the >>>> project. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >>>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >>>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick >>>>> different >>>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with >>>>> an >>>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >>>>> >>>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >>>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms >>>>> since >>>>> then. >>>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >>>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS >>>>> receivers. >>>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >>>>> have a LOT of changes. >>>>> >>>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the >>>>> REF-0, >>>>> with >>>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >>>>> stability / >>>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity >>>>> GPS to >>>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>>>>> receivers. >>>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>>>>> use a new >>>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>>>>> messages >>>>>> required to do that. >>>>>> >>>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>>>>> ASCII >>>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>>>>> with >>>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>>>>> after many >>>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>>>>> >>>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>>>>> problem >>>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>>>>> while &g
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Am 09.08.2015 um 21:48 schrieb Pete Lancashire: 100% 2nd the thanks to all. OMG. 27 bytes of good technical content in a 19.7 KBytes message with 13 levels of citing. Please, everybody, snip the context that is no longer needed. regards, Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
A reminder: my "collection" of Z3810AS notes can be found at http://do-nyc.bodosom.net/. I'll keep it around until there's something better. On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach > used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally > well > to these devices. > > Bob > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? > > Don > > > > Bob Camp > >> Hi > >> > >> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: > >>> > >>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run > >>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very > minimal > >>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked > and > >>> disciplining to the 1PPS. > >>> > >>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But > things are > >>> looking very good. > >>> > >>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will > post > >>> that here when I am done. > >>> > >>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the > >>> project. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi > >>>> > >>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible > >>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% > >>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick > different > >>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” > with an > >>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. > >>>> > >>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore > silicon > >>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms > since > >>>> then. > >>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to > call > >>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS > receivers. > >>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and > you > >>>> have a LOT of changes. > >>>> > >>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the > REF-0, > >>>> with > >>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high > >>>> stability / > >>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high > sensitivity > >>>> GPS to > >>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent > hardware. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore > >>>>> receivers. > >>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to > >>>>> use a new > >>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on > the > >>>>> messages > >>>>> required to do that. > >>>>> > >>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as > >>>>> ASCII > >>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be > edited > >>>>> with > >>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and > >>>>> after many > >>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. > >>>>> > >>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The > &g
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well to these devices. Bob > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham wrote: > > Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? > Don > > Bob Camp >> Hi >> >> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: >>> >>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run >>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal >>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and >>> disciplining to the 1PPS. >>> >>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are >>> looking very good. >>> >>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post >>> that here when I am done. >>> >>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the >>> project. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different >>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an >>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >>>> >>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since >>>> then. >>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. >>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >>>> have a LOT of changes. >>>> >>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, >>>> with >>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >>>> stability / >>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity >>>> GPS to >>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>>>> >>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>>>> receivers. >>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>>>> use a new >>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>>>> messages >>>>> required to do that. >>>>> >>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>>>> ASCII >>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>>>> with >>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>>>> after many >>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>>>> >>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>>>> problem >>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>>>> while >>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >>>>> two >>>>> more groups of satellite data. >>>>> >>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >>>>> Considering >>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net >>>>> for >>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >>>>> make a >>>>> reasonable offe
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? Don Bob Camp > Hi > > And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! > > Bob > >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: >> >> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run >> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal >> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and >> disciplining to the 1PPS. >> >> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are >> looking very good. >> >> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post >> that here when I am done. >> >> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the >> project. >> >> Regards >> >> Dan >> >>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different >>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an >>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >>> >>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since >>> then. >>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. >>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >>> have a LOT of changes. >>> >>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, >>> with >>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >>> stability / >>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity >>> GPS to >>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >>> >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: >>>> >>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>>> >>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>>> receivers. >>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>>> use a new >>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>>> messages >>>> required to do that. >>>> >>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>>> ASCII >>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>>> with >>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>>> after many >>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>>> >>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>>> problem >>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>>> while >>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >>>> two >>>> more groups of satellite data. >>>> >>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >>>> Considering >>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net >>>> for >>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >>>> make a >>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a >>>> 28 volt >>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being >>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other >>>> stuff. >>>> >>>> Bill Hawkins >>>> Bloomington, MN 55438 >>>> >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob >>>> Camp >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM >>>> To: Discussion of precise t
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
100% 2nd the thanks to all. On Aug 9, 2015 12:07 PM, "Bob Camp" wrote: > Hi > > And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! > > Bob > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: > > > > A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run > standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal > circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and > disciplining to the 1PPS. > > > > The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things > are looking very good. > > > > I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will > post that here when I am done. > > > > Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the > project. > > > > Regards > > > > Dan > > > >> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible > >> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% > >> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick > different > >> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” > with an > >> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. > >> > >> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon > >> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms > since then. > >> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to > call > >> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS > receivers. > >> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you > >> have a LOT of changes. > >> > >> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the > REF-0, with > >> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high > stability / > >> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high > sensitivity GPS to > >> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. > >> > >> > >> > >> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > >>> > >>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. > >>> > >>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore > >>> receivers. > >>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to > >>> use a new > >>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the > >>> messages > >>> required to do that. > >>> > >>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as > >>> ASCII > >>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be > edited > >>> with > >>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and > >>> after many > >>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. > >>> > >>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The > >>> problem > >>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels > >>> while > >>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is > >>> two > >>> more groups of satellite data. > >>> > >>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. > >>> Considering > >>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to > b...@iaxs.net > >>> for > >>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please > >>> make a > >>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with > a > >>> 28 volt > >>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is > being > >>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other > >>> stuff. > >>> > >>> Bill Hawkins > >>> Bloomington, MN 55438 > >>> > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob > >>> Camp > >>>
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! Bob > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: > > A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run > standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal > circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and > disciplining to the 1PPS. > > The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are > looking very good. > > I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post > that here when I am done. > > Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the project. > > Regards > > Dan > >> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different >> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an >> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >> >> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since >> then. >> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. >> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >> have a LOT of changes. >> >> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, >> with >> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >> stability / >> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity GPS >> to >> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >> >> >> >> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: >>> >>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>> >>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>> receivers. >>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>> use a new >>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>> messages >>> required to do that. >>> >>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>> ASCII >>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>> with >>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>> after many >>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>> >>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>> problem >>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>> while >>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >>> two >>> more groups of satellite data. >>> >>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >>> Considering >>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net >>> for >>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >>> make a >>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a >>> 28 volt >>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being >>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other >>> stuff. >>> >>> Bill Hawkins >>> Bloomington, MN 55438 >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob >>> Camp >>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA >>> era >>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. >>> The signal >>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it >>> worth >>> playin
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Dan, Jeze I didn't even plug my Ref 0 in yet. Look forward to your details and code. Even if you did find things wondering at least you have the messages needed to make the Ref track and Bobs emails making for a pretty complete approach thats simple. The devils always in the details but a great start. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:26 AM, D W wrote: > A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run > standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal > circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and > disciplining to the 1PPS. > > The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things > are looking very good. > > I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will > post that here when I am done. > > Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the > project. > > Regards > > Dan > > > On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible > > with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% > > sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick > different > > strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with > an > > Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. > > > > That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon > > came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms > since then. > > A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call > > volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS > receivers. > > Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you > > have a LOT of changes. > > > > Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the > REF-0, with > > a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high > stability / > > long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity > GPS to > > go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. > > > > > > > > Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! > > > > Bob > > > >> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > >> > >> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. > >> > >> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore > >> receivers. > >> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to > >> use a new > >> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the > >> messages > >> required to do that. > >> > >> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as > >> ASCII > >> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited > >> with > >> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and > >> after many > >> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. > >> > >> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The > >> problem > >> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels > >> while > >> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is > >> two > >> more groups of satellite data. > >> > >> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. > >> Considering > >> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to > b...@iaxs.net > >> for > >> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please > >> make a > >> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a > >> 28 volt > >> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being > >> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other > >> stuff. > >> > >> Bill Hawkins > >> Bloomington, MN 55438 > >> > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob > >> Camp > >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> As far as I know, the Symmetrico
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and disciplining to the 1PPS. The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are looking very good. I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post that here when I am done. Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the project. Regards Dan > On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > > Hi > > While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible > with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% > sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different > strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an > Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. > > That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon > came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since > then. > A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call > volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. > Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you > have a LOT of changes. > > Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, > with > a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high > stability / > long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity GPS > to > go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. > > > > Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! > > Bob > >> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: >> >> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >> >> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >> receivers. >> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >> use a new >> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >> messages >> required to do that. >> >> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >> ASCII >> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >> with >> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >> after many >> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >> >> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >> problem >> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >> while >> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >> two >> more groups of satellite data. >> >> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >> Considering >> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net >> for >> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >> make a >> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a >> 28 volt >> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being >> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other >> stuff. >> >> Bill Hawkins >> Bloomington, MN 55438 >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob >> Camp >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone >> >> Hi >> >> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA >> era >> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. >> The signal >> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it >> worth >> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound >> reasonable. >> >> As with any absolute statement, there are sure to be exceptions >> .. >> >> == >> >> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. >> The KS >> does not care that it always sees the same sats at the same locations >> directly >> over its own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. >> >> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since then. A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you have a LOT of changes. Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, with a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high stability / long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity GPS to go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! Bob > On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > > Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. > > I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore > receivers. > Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to > use a new > crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the > messages > required to do that. > > The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as > ASCII > characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited > with > explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and > after many > years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. > > The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The > problem > with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels > while > the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is > two > more groups of satellite data. > > I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. > Considering > the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net > for > further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please > make a > reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a > 28 volt > 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being > downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other > stuff. > > Bill Hawkins > Bloomington, MN 55438 > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Camp > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone > > Hi > > As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA > era > (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. > The signal > spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it > worth > playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound > reasonable. > > As with any absolute statement, there are sure to be exceptions > .. > > == > > For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. > The KS > does not care that it always sees the same sats at the same locations > directly > over its own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. > > It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here > and there. > None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore > strings > are something Mr Google knows a lot about. > > If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox, > remember that > each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS > fired relative to > things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the > time label wrong > is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical > evidence of > what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. Its far > harder to track down > when only looking at the outside of the device. > > Bob > >> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed wrote: >> >> Dan exactly my thinking. >> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. >> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think > there is >> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Given my history of mentioning this sort of thing on the list, the listing will be gone before this makes it past the poor suffering list server. The REF-0’s still showed up at $25 each or $50 for a pair ( = better net shipping) last time I looked. I agree that even without being able to bring them up as a GPSDO, they are a pretty good pile of parts. Truth in lending — I went ahead and got “a few” more before I posted this…..Why I *need* more is .. umm … errr … indeterminate ... Bob > On Aug 8, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Ian Stirling wrote: > > On 08/06/2015 07:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: > >> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a >> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? > > I have two REF-0 units spare: at $25, the Milliren OCXOs are treasures. > I am configuring them with a soldering iron. > > 73, > Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR > -- > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore receivers. Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to use a new crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the messages required to do that. The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as ASCII characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited with explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and after many years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The problem with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels while the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is two more groups of satellite data. I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. Considering the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net for further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please make a reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a 28 volt 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other stuff. Bill Hawkins Bloomington, MN 55438 -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone Hi As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA era (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. The signal spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it worth playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound reasonable. As with any absolute statement, there are sure to be exceptions .. == For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. The KS does not care that it always sees the same sats at the same locations directly over its own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here and there. None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore strings are something Mr Google knows a lot about. If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox, remember that each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS fired relative to things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the time label wrong is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical evidence of what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. Its far harder to track down when only looking at the outside of the device. Bob > On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Dan exactly my thinking. > I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. > Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think there is > a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real oncore > or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats > needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all > easily do a fixed string. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W wrote: > >> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, and >> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code can be >> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using a ~$1 >> chip. >> >> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should still be >> quite easy to do. >> >> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a Jupiter-T >> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very nicely >> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's notes and >> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. >> >> Dan >> >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> Looking forward to the notes. >>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that >>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after >> that >>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the >>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end >> ones >>> will do that stunt very easily. >>> That would be pretty sweet. >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> >>>>
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi It’s a good bet that the REF-1 is set up to allow a hot swap of the REF-0 unit. In a cell site, you would not want a working REF-1 to go down when you replaced a blown REF-0. You would *think* that the same logic applies to a REF-1 booting up initially. For what ever reason, it does not apply. No I did *not* write that firmware :) I also have never seen the original spec for these boxes. There may be a perfectly logical reason they boot that way. Why does this matter? Booting a REF-0 cold is likely a bit different than letting the REF-1 bring it up. The control lines likely need poking in a “ready goes low first” followed by the other lines later sort of order. It is indeed the once per 5 seconds stuff that I *suspect* are not needed except to fill in the information in the master display screen. The once a second message is very much needed for the unit to keep doing it’s thing. Actually that’s not exactly correct. The unit cruises along for a bit with no messages before it goes into holdover. I have never tried pushing things to figure out if that’s a useful “feature” or not. Bob > On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:07 AM, D W wrote: > > Bob, thanks for the detailed notes. > > This morning I fired up a REF0/1 pair and let it lock normally. Then I > disconnected the magic interface cable. Strangely the REF1 doesn't seem to > care in the slightest that the cable is pulled, likely because it is in > standby. The REF0 certainly does care though and gives the expected lights. I > was then able to manually wire the necessary interface pins as described by > Bob, and I got it operating normally again. With that test done I'll now try > it from a cold startup. > > I also captured some serial strings from the REF1, looks like the required > messages go once a second with the full set of messages being transmitted > every five seconds. > > I plan to use an AVR as I have plenty on hand. Should be fairly easy. I think > I'll ignore the sawtooth correction for now and just null out the GPS data > for a true dummy burst. Hopefully the REF0 likes that. After that's working > I'll try to populate sawtooth correction from a ublox to potentially improve > performance. > > Thanks > > Dan > >> On Aug 7, 2015, at 9:48 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Here’s a quick and dirty approach to getting a Z3812A, KS-24361 L101, >> RFTG-u, Ref-0 box >> up and running on it’s own. >> >> == >> >> First P1 the +24VDC input. It’s a male 9 pin connector. The pins are all >> labeled on the connector. >> The numbers are small, but they are there. They are also labeled on every >> example of the mating >> connector I have ever seen. >> >> Pin 1gets the positive lead from the supply >> Pin 2 gets the negative (return) lead from the supply. >> >> The rated supply range is 18 to 36V. I would not go below 19V based on >> previous experience >> with these bricks. Current at 28V will start out around 1.3A. >> >> = >> >> Next up is the RS-422/1PPS port J6. Again this is a 9 pin connector with all >> of the pins labeled >> on the connector. Since it’s a female connector, the pin order is not the >> same as on a male >> connector when you are looking at the face of the connector. The pin >> *locations* are the same, >> they mate face to face. >> >> Pins 1 and 6form the PPS output pair. Pin 1 is +. >> Pins 4 and 8form the RX data (data going into the box and out of >> the computer) pair. Pin 4 is +. >> Pins 5 and 9form the TX data pair. Pin 5 is plus. >> Pin 3is ground >> >> The J8-diagnostic port is identical to J6 except it does not have the 1 pps >> output. >> >> All data on these two ports is at RS-422 signaling levels. They are not the >> same as RS-232. You >> should use a converter with these levels. When connecting up things remember >> that with a >> serial connection the wire has a transmitter on one end and a receiver on >> the other end. >> >> == >> >> Data format is 9600 baud, 8 data bits, no parity, one stop bit. This is >> often called 8N1. If you power >> up the box and type *IDN? It should come back and tell you what sort of box >> it is. This same approach >> works for checking serial connections to a lot of HP gear. It’s standard >> SCPI stuff. The other handy >> command is :SYST:STAT?. It will show you a nice screen full of information >> about what the device is doing. >> >> If you power the box up at this point, you can talk to it via serial. The >> LED’s on the right side will come >> on and tell you that there are various things wrong: >> >> NO GPS = the box has not seen a data string from a Motorola Oncore GPS >> in a a while >> FAULT = the magic 15 pin cable is not plugged in >> STBY = the box is not the master unit for the cell site >> ON = we have po
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
On 08/06/2015 07:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? I have two REF-0 units spare: at $25, the Milliren OCXOs are treasures. I am configuring them with a soldering iron. 73, Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA era (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. The signal spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it worth playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound reasonable. As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions ….. == For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. The KS does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations directly over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here and there. None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore strings are something Mr Google knows a lot about. If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox, remember that each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS fired relative to things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the time label wrong is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical evidence of what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far harder to track down when only looking at the “outside” of the device. Bob > On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Dan exactly my thinking. > I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. > Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think there is > a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real oncore > or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats > needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all > easily do a fixed string. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W wrote: > >> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, and >> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code can be >> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using a ~$1 >> chip. >> >> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should still be >> quite easy to do. >> >> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a Jupiter-T >> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very nicely >> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's notes and >> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. >> >> Dan >> >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> Looking forward to the notes. >>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that >>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after >> that >>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the >>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end >> ones >>> will do that stunt very easily. >>> That would be pretty sweet. >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a few days to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. What you will need: 1) A working REF-0 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no >> real advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. More to follow. Bob > On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > > Bob, > > I would like that information too please and thank you. > > I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to >> figure out what is needed. > > cheers, Graham ve3gtc > > >> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. >> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string >> as it comes by. >> >> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>> >>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi People got a bit ???excited??
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob, thanks for the detailed notes. This morning I fired up a REF0/1 pair and let it lock normally. Then I disconnected the magic interface cable. Strangely the REF1 doesn't seem to care in the slightest that the cable is pulled, likely because it is in standby. The REF0 certainly does care though and gives the expected lights. I was then able to manually wire the necessary interface pins as described by Bob, and I got it operating normally again. With that test done I'll now try it from a cold startup. I also captured some serial strings from the REF1, looks like the required messages go once a second with the full set of messages being transmitted every five seconds. I plan to use an AVR as I have plenty on hand. Should be fairly easy. I think I'll ignore the sawtooth correction for now and just null out the GPS data for a true dummy burst. Hopefully the REF0 likes that. After that's working I'll try to populate sawtooth correction from a ublox to potentially improve performance. Thanks Dan > On Aug 7, 2015, at 9:48 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > > Hi > > Here’s a quick and dirty approach to getting a Z3812A, KS-24361 L101, RFTG-u, > Ref-0 box > up and running on it’s own. > > == > > First P1 the +24VDC input. It’s a male 9 pin connector. The pins are all > labeled on the connector. > The numbers are small, but they are there. They are also labeled on every > example of the mating > connector I have ever seen. > >Pin 1gets the positive lead from the supply >Pin 2 gets the negative (return) lead from the supply. > > The rated supply range is 18 to 36V. I would not go below 19V based on > previous experience > with these bricks. Current at 28V will start out around 1.3A. > > = > > Next up is the RS-422/1PPS port J6. Again this is a 9 pin connector with all > of the pins labeled > on the connector. Since it’s a female connector, the pin order is not the > same as on a male > connector when you are looking at the face of the connector. The pin > *locations* are the same, > they mate face to face. > >Pins 1 and 6form the PPS output pair. Pin 1 is +. >Pins 4 and 8form the RX data (data going into the box and out of > the computer) pair. Pin 4 is +. >Pins 5 and 9form the TX data pair. Pin 5 is plus. > Pin 3is ground > > The J8-diagnostic port is identical to J6 except it does not have the 1 pps > output. > > All data on these two ports is at RS-422 signaling levels. They are not the > same as RS-232. You > should use a converter with these levels. When connecting up things remember > that with a > serial connection the wire has a transmitter on one end and a receiver on the > other end. > > == > > Data format is 9600 baud, 8 data bits, no parity, one stop bit. This is often > called 8N1. If you power > up the box and type *IDN? It should come back and tell you what sort of box > it is. This same approach > works for checking serial connections to a lot of HP gear. It’s standard SCPI > stuff. The other handy > command is :SYST:STAT?. It will show you a nice screen full of information > about what the device is doing. > > If you power the box up at this point, you can talk to it via serial. The > LED’s on the right side will come > on and tell you that there are various things wrong: > >NO GPS = the box has not seen a data string from a Motorola Oncore GPS > in a a while >FAULT = the magic 15 pin cable is not plugged in >STBY = the box is not the master unit for the cell site >ON = we have power. > > The goal obviously is to get the yellow and red LED’s to turn off while > keeping the green LED glowing. > The only connections required to do this are on J5 the Interface connector. > J5 is a 15 pin connector. Like > the rest, the pins are all labeled. While 15 pins sounds like a lot, it is a > fairly simple interface. We will > start out slow with this connector. We will get it all taken care of. > > > > J5 pins connections and uses ( AKA .. the good stuff) > > Pins 8 and 13 are tied to ground inside the unit. Either one of these gets > tied to directly to pin 3. This > wire signals to the Ref-0 that a Ref-1 is plugged to wired to the connector. > The standard cable takes > pin 3 to pin 13 (which is also grounded on the Ref-1). No active signaling is > done on pin 3 It’s just a solid ground > in the normal setup. > > Pins 6 and 10 let the boxes tell each other what the setting on SW1, the > output level switch is set to. > If you set it to 23 ( = 23 dbm) you get an error flag. Just leave the switch > at 17 dbm. Jumper pin > 6 to pin 10 to keep things happy signal wise. > > So far, nothing we have done is any different on the REF-1 and getting it > running stand alone. In fact, much > of the proces
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Dan exactly my thinking. I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think there is a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real oncore or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all easily do a fixed string. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W wrote: > Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, and > doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code can be > developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using a ~$1 > chip. > > Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should still be > quite easy to do. > > A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a Jupiter-T > and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very nicely > but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's notes and > incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. > > Dan > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > Looking forward to the notes. > > Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that > > essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after > that > > the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the > > correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end > ones > > will do that stunt very easily. > > That would be pretty sweet. > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a > >> few days > >> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. > >> > >> What you will need: > >> > >> 1) A working REF-0 > >> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going > >> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) > >> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 > >> > >> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no > real > >> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. > >> > >> More to follow. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > >>> > >>> Bob, > >>> > >>> I would like that information too please and thank you. > >>> > >>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 > >> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to > figure > >> out what is needed. > >>> > >>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc > >>> > >>> > On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in > >> and spitting out the right strings. > That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs > >> the data off of the string > as it comes by. > > I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. > >> It’s buried around here somewhere. > > Bob > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > >> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > > > > Thanks. > > > > I have some Motorola Oncore available. > > > > Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? > > > > Regards, > > > > Edésio > > > >> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box > discussions. > >> All of the work decoding > >> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. > >> > >> Simple answer: > >> > >> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that > >> looks like the output > >> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation > >> of the signal lines. > >> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > >> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello Fellows! > >>> > >>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, > >> as a > >>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to > >> configure it? > >>> > >>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD > >> 52.30 > >>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom > >> taxes. > >>> > >>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Edésio > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing l
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:06 PM, paul swed wrote: > Looking forward to the notes. > Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that > essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after that > the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the > correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end ones > will do that stunt very easily. > That would be pretty sweet. Does it also take and apply sawtooth correction data? It would be pretty great to e.g. be able to use the sawtooth data that comes out of the modern ublox recievers (even the non-timing models). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Here’s a quick and dirty approach to getting a Z3812A, KS-24361 L101, RFTG-u, Ref-0 box up and running on it’s own. == First P1 the +24VDC input. It’s a male 9 pin connector. The pins are all labeled on the connector. The numbers are small, but they are there. They are also labeled on every example of the mating connector I have ever seen. Pin 1 gets the positive lead from the supply Pin 2gets the negative (return) lead from the supply. The rated supply range is 18 to 36V. I would not go below 19V based on previous experience with these bricks. Current at 28V will start out around 1.3A. = Next up is the RS-422/1PPS port J6. Again this is a 9 pin connector with all of the pins labeled on the connector. Since it’s a female connector, the pin order is not the same as on a male connector when you are looking at the face of the connector. The pin *locations* are the same, they mate face to face. Pins 1 and 6 form the PPS output pair. Pin 1 is +. Pins 4 and 8form the RX data (data going into the box and out of the computer) pair. Pin 4 is +. Pins 5 and 9form the TX data pair. Pin 5 is plus. Pin 3 is ground The J8-diagnostic port is identical to J6 except it does not have the 1 pps output. All data on these two ports is at RS-422 signaling levels. They are not the same as RS-232. You should use a converter with these levels. When connecting up things remember that with a serial connection the wire has a transmitter on one end and a receiver on the other end. == Data format is 9600 baud, 8 data bits, no parity, one stop bit. This is often called 8N1. If you power up the box and type *IDN? It should come back and tell you what sort of box it is. This same approach works for checking serial connections to a lot of HP gear. It’s standard SCPI stuff. The other handy command is :SYST:STAT?. It will show you a nice screen full of information about what the device is doing. If you power the box up at this point, you can talk to it via serial. The LED’s on the right side will come on and tell you that there are various things wrong: NO GPS = the box has not seen a data string from a Motorola Oncore GPS in a a while FAULT= the magic 15 pin cable is not plugged in STBY = the box is not the master unit for the cell site ON = we have power. The goal obviously is to get the yellow and red LED’s to turn off while keeping the green LED glowing. The only connections required to do this are on J5 the Interface connector. J5 is a 15 pin connector. Like the rest, the pins are all labeled. While 15 pins sounds like a lot, it is a fairly simple interface. We will start out slow with this connector. We will get it all taken care of. J5 pins connections and uses ( AKA .. the good stuff) Pins 8 and 13 are tied to ground inside the unit. Either one of these gets tied to directly to pin 3. This wire signals to the Ref-0 that a Ref-1 is plugged to wired to the connector. The standard cable takes pin 3 to pin 13 (which is also grounded on the Ref-1). No active signaling is done on pin 3 It’s just a solid ground in the normal setup. Pins 6 and 10 let the boxes tell each other what the setting on SW1, the output level switch is set to. If you set it to 23 ( = 23 dbm) you get an error flag. Just leave the switch at 17 dbm. Jumper pin 6 to pin 10 to keep things happy signal wise. So far, nothing we have done is any different on the REF-1 and getting it running stand alone. In fact, much of the process of getting a REF-0 going stand alone is the same as the REF-1. Pin 1 is the serial output (5V CMOS levels) from the box. Since there is no serial out of this box, the pin is open. Just ignore it. Pin 15 is the serial input to the box (also 5V levels). It will need the GPS data on it. Pin 1 of the Ref-1 box does have serial data on it. That data is a duplicate of the serial output of the Motorola Oncore in that box. The Oncore is set up and operated entirely by the CPU and firmware in the Ref-1. The data stream has the @@ Ea (position), @@En (time), @@Bb (visible satellites) and @@Bo (UTC offset) information in it. If the objective is to fill all of the entries in the data screen on the Ref-0 with accurate data, all of these strings would need to be present and 100% correct to the firmware used in the HP / Symmetricom version of the Oncore. If the objective is to simply have the Ref-0 run as a GPSDO, fake strings can be used. Pin 15 is the serial data input to the Ref-0. It is the magic pin that the Oncore serial (or fake strings) need to show up on. If you are running an Oncore, then simply setting it up to run a survey, then locking it in position are needed to g
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, and doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code can be developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using a ~$1 chip. Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should still be quite easy to do. A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a Jupiter-T and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very nicely but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's notes and incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. Dan > On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Looking forward to the notes. > Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that > essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after that > the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the > correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end ones > will do that stunt very easily. > That would be pretty sweet. > Paul > WB8TSL > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a >> few days >> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. >> >> What you will need: >> >> 1) A working REF-0 >> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going >> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) >> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 >> >> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no real >> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. >> >> More to follow. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: >>> >>> Bob, >>> >>> I would like that information too please and thank you. >>> >>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 >> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure >> out what is needed. >>> >>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc >>> >>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in >> and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs >> the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. >> It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > > Thanks. > > I have some Motorola Oncore available. > > Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? > > Regards, > > Edésio > >> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. >> All of the work decoding >> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. >> >> Simple answer: >> >> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that >> looks like the output >> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation >> of the signal lines. >> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Fellows! >>> >>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, >> as a >>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to >> configure it? >>> >>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD >> 52.30 >>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom >> taxes. >>> >>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > T
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Thanks, Bob. Would it make sense to also upload it to KO4BB's site? John K1AE -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone Hi Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a few days to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. What you will need: 1) A working REF-0 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no real advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. More to follow. Bob > On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > > Bob, > > I would like that information too please and thank you. > > I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 that > I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure out > what is needed. > > cheers, Graham ve3gtc > > > On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and >> spitting out the right strings. >> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the >> data off of the string >> as it comes by. >> >> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s >> buried around here somewhere. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>> >>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All >>>> of the work decoding >>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. >>>> >>>> Simple answer: >>>> >>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks >>>> like the output >>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the >>>> signal lines. >>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello Fellows! >>>>> >>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a >>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? >>>>> >>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 >>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. >>>>> >>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Edésio >>>>> ___ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Looking forward to the notes. Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps after that the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with the correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low end ones will do that stunt very easily. That would be pretty sweet. Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a > few days > to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. > > What you will need: > > 1) A working REF-0 > 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going > 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) > 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 > > Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no real > advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. > > More to follow. > > Bob > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > > > > Bob, > > > > I would like that information too please and thank you. > > > > I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 > that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure > out what is needed. > > > > cheers, Graham ve3gtc > > > > > > On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in > and spitting out the right strings. > >> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs > the data off of the string > >> as it comes by. > >> > >> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. > It’s buried around here somewhere. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thanks. > >>> > >>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. > >>> > >>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Edésio > >>> > >>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. > All of the work decoding > the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. > > Simple answer: > > Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that > looks like the output > of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation > of the signal lines. > It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. > > Bob > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > > > > Hello Fellows! > > > > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, > as a > > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to > configure it? > > > > The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD > 52.30 > > (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom > taxes. > > > > Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > > > > Regards, > > > > Edésio > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably take a few days to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. What you will need: 1) A working REF-0 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is no real advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. More to follow. Bob > On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > > Bob, > > I would like that information too please and thank you. > > I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 that > I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure out > what is needed. > > cheers, Graham ve3gtc > > > On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and >> spitting out the right strings. >> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the >> data off of the string >> as it comes by. >> >> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s >> buried around here somewhere. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>> >>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob > On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva > wrote: > > Hello Fellows! > > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? > > The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 > (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. > > Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > > Regards, > > Edésio > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob there is enough interest you may want to resend it here. Just a thought. Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Graham wrote: > Bob, > > I would like that information too please and thank you. > > I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 > that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure > out what is needed. > > cheers, Graham ve3gtc > > > > On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in >> and spitting out the right strings. >> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the >> data off of the string >> as it comes by. >> >> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. >> It’s buried around here somewhere. >> >> Bob >> >> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >>> time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>> >>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >>> Hi People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < > time-n...@tardis.net.br> wrote: > > Hello Fellows! > > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure > it? > > The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 > (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. > > Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > > Regards, > > Edésio > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Bob, I also grabbed some of the KS-24361 pairs and retrieved a lot of information from the mailng list archive. If you have more results from the reverse engineering which was already done, I´d also be very interested. Thanks, Matthias Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: Thanks. I have some Motorola Oncore available. Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? Regards, Edésio On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: Hello Fellows! Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. Regards, Edésio ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Bob, I would like that information too please and thank you. I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second REF-0 that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet to figure out what is needed. cheers, Graham ve3gtc On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: Thanks. I have some Motorola Oncore available. Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? Regards, Edésio On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva wrote: Hello Fellows! Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. Regards, Edésio ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi Bob I would also like to get the information on how to use the REF-0, I have one on the way Thank you Gary vk2kyp -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Friday, 7 August 2015 12:40 PM To: Edesio Costa e Silva Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva > wrote: > > Thanks. > > I have some Motorola Oncore available. > > Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? > > Regards, > > Edésio > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. >> All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was >> taken off list. >> >> Simple answer: >> >> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that >> looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple >> manipulation of the signal lines. >> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Fellows! >>> >>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, >>> as a standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure >>> it? >>> >>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD >>> 52.30 (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom >>> taxes. >>> >>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position locked in and spitting out the right strings. That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply grabs the data off of the string as it comes by. I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off list. It’s buried around here somewhere. Bob > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva > wrote: > > Thanks. > > I have some Motorola Oncore available. > > Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? > > Regards, > > Edésio > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of >> the work decoding >> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. >> >> Simple answer: >> >> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks >> like the output >> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the >> signal lines. >> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Fellows! >>> >>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a >>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? >>> >>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 >>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. >>> >>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Edésio >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Thanks. I have some Motorola Oncore available. Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines"? Regards, Edésio On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box discussions. All of > the work decoding > the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. > > Simple answer: > > Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string that looks > like the output > of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the > signal lines. > It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. > > Bob > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva > > wrote: > > > > Hello Fellows! > > > > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a > > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? > > > > The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 > > (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. > > > > Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > > > > Regards, > > > > Edésio > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hi People got a bit “excited” about the level of KS box discussions. All of the work decoding the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off list. Simple answer: Yes you can run a REF-0 by it’s self. It needs a dummy string that looks like the output of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple manipulation of the signal lines. It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. Bob > On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva > wrote: > > Hello Fellows! > > Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a > standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? > > The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 > (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. > > Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. > > Regards, > > Edésio > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
Hello Fellows! Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without GPS, as a standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to configure it? The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + USD 52.30 (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as custom taxes. Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. Regards, Edésio ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
