Re: [time-nuts] NTP, PPS and < 10 us offsets

[mike cook]

Le 15 mai 2013 à 21:43, Miguel Barbosa Gonçalves a écrit :
> 
> I've reconfigured the antenna to output only NMEA sentences (and I also use
> the PPS) and NTP works fine but suddenly without any explanation the NTP
> process stops receiving information from the receiver. I really don't
> understand what's happening here as the receiver is on the roof and sees
> plenty of satellites:
> 
> 56427 70907.634 127.127.20.0
> $GPGGA,194147.0,4055.227,N,00829.618,W,1,07,1.14,00264,M,051,M,,*48

these look ok

> 56427 70923.635 127.127.20.0
> $GPGGA,194203.0,4055.227,N,00829.617,W,1,07,1.14,00262,M,051,M,,*42
> 56427 70939.634 127.127.20.0
> $GPGGA,194219.0,4055.226,N,00829.616,W,1,06,1.47,00258,M,051,M,,*47

The NMEA driver is very stable so my guess would be the 422/232 converter. As 
you have 2 converters you could try switching them to see if the problem moves.

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[time-nuts] for Mark C. Stephens re 2200 downconverter

[mike cook]

Mark,
  The thread on your 2200 indicated that these downconverters were used by 
various manufacturers. I just happened on paybay item 280918789321 which may 
fit your app. 
regards, Mike
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Re: [time-nuts] Time source for indoor standalone PC

[mike cook]

Le 17 mai 2013 à 06:45, Grant Waldram a écrit :



> This is inside a security-fob protected room. I
> can't get GPS signals in there, and the Australian radio clock network was
> shut down about ten years ago. Our CDMA network was turned off in 2008.
> Right now all I can think of is GSM, and while i know it's not terribly
> accurate it seems like it might be the easiest. It also might be that I've
> got tunnel vision and there's a simpler solution out there.
> 

  It may be that you can receive the Japanese time service JJY at 60Hz or even 
WWVH, for which receivers are available. If not then I guess it means how deep 
are your pockets. GSM would mean that a call in/out would be possible which s 
not secure though GSM routers are available with an NTP service.
Otherwise you are looking at a homebuild or bought NTP server with a 
sufficiently stable time source, or rather at least 3 of them. Remember that a 
man with 1 clock only thinks he knows what the time is, one with two clocks has 
no idea. 

> I would be quite happy with some sort of dedicated GSM/NTP-server box, and
> there are Arduino/Raspberry Pi/Linux homebuilts for that out there, but I
> have been wondering if one of the fairly common GSM USB sticks could somehow
> be a time source to set the server clock?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Grant
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Time source for indoor standalone PC

[mike cook]

Le 17 mai 2013 à 22:52, Eric Williams a écrit :

> That's based on my experience, but I did go in and tweaked the offset
> register in mine over the course of a month or so.  I think it has gotten
> off 3-4 seconds in a year.
> 

 I have found the same, BUT, they are not a solution to the issue. The reason 
is that the OS doesn't read the RTC after initial boot sequence, when the 
system clock is initialised. All clock references are to the system clock from 
there on until orderly shutdown when it is updated from the system clock value.
So it will give an accurate time at boot, but the system clock stability will 
predominate from there. My Raspberry Pi which has one of these installed has a 
40ppm clock drift even though the RTC does better. I need NTP to get correct 
it. 

> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
> 
>>> Even something as simple as a Chronodot will hold to a few seconds a
>> year.
>> 
>> Eric,
>> 
>> Are you sure? My understanding is that the Chronodot is based on the
>> DS3231. Quoting http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS3231.pdf we read:
>> 
>>The DS3231 is a serial RTC driven by a temperature compensated 32kHz
>> crystal oscillator. The TCXO provides a stable and accurate reference
>> clock, and maintains the RTC to within ±2 minutes per year accuracy from
>> -40°C to +85°C.
>> 
>> /tvb
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Net4501's cheap...

[mike cook]

Le 23 mai 2013 à 03:31, Jim Sanford a écrit :

> Do you have any documentation on how to use them?  I have one that I bought 
> to be an internet access point with a verizon card, failed due to verizon not 
> complying with the RFCs.  Love the device, but no information on ports, etc.  
> Might want to play with it, or could make it available.
> 

  User manuals, firmware etc from the Soekris.com site and there is plenty of 
OS installation/admin doc visible on the web. They marry with PCI or mini-PCI 
wifi cards that can be found cheaply. Mine were running FreeBSD but there are 
other flavors that support it. I say were because their power supplies failed 
after around 5years 24/24. The 4801s of the same vintage are still going.
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Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?

[mike cook]

Le 25 mai 2013 à 22:53, Jim Lux a écrit :

> On 5/25/13 10:55 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use.  Costs about $40
>> 
> and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor..
> 

If you don't need graphics it runs fine headless using putty to ssh into.

> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NTP Clock suggestions?

[mike cook]

Le 27 mai 2013 à 16:56, Miguel Barbosa Gonçalves a écrit :
> 
> I don't understand why a microprocessor with an Ethernet controller and a 7
> segment display would cost so much to manufacture... I think I'll build my
> own.
> 

  One advantage of having an OS and NTP client on board is that you get 
automatic TZ and DST offsets if you want. A Pi  also works fine with a USB WiFi 
dongle so no ugly CAT5 wiring required. One of the Pi s I2C buses could be used 
to drive a 7 seg display controller such as those from Adafruit.  
As you would have the full TCP stack you could configure it over the same wiFi 
. It's not Windows but doesn't need  much power so long as you don't want to 
drive giant LEDs.

>> 
> 
> Good joke :-) I imagine the electricity bill at the end of the month.
> 
> I would like to have a clock sync with my super precise stratum 1 servers
> :-) what's the point in having them if I can see the time anywhere? :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Miguel
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Re: [time-nuts] NTP Clock suggestions?

[mike cook]

Yup,
  Got a similar response from the local distribs here in France.  They did 
propose a similar product at 600euros VAT (19,6%).

Le 28 mai 2013 à 12:10, Mark C. Stephens a écrit :

> I was sucked in and got this reply:
> 
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Mark,
> 
> Thank you for your interest on Symmetricom Time Display.
> 
> Only those listed below are available . The rest are out of stock and no 
> longer available.
> 
> Enclose, please find the special promotional unit price (exclude GST) for 
> your consideration.
> 
> [cid:_1_0965E36409626A24001EA585CA257B79]
> 
> Thank you and we look forward to your favourable reply.
> 
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> 
> 
> 
> Basically they are phishing for contact details.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -marki
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of Hal Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013 5:03 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP Clock suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> li...@rtty.us said:
> 
>> Is there a price shown somewhere on that sheet?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't see any prices on the data sheet, but there was a previous message 
> that said:
> 
> 
> 
> xne...@luna.dyndns.dk said:
> 
>> This was posted to the group @21-05
> 
>> http://www.symmetricom.com/lp/gbu/email/time-display-promo-landing-page/?
> 
>> emailid=GBU078_NTD_Promo_ProdPg&lead_source=Web
> 
> 
> 
>> http://tinyurl.com/ptopb86
> 
> 
> 
>> But it's funny ... I think there was a price on that page earlier ...
> 
> 
> 
> When I go to that web page, it says at the top
> 
>   "ONLY $99 for Select Network Time Displays"
> 
> I assume they are normally more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Maxim DS3232 and I2C

[mike cook]

I don't think this is an issue. The datasheet indicates :

When reading or writing the time and date registers, secondary
(user) buffers are used to prevent errors when
the internal registers update. When reading the time and
date registers, the user buffers are synchronized to the
internal registers on any START and when the register
pointer rolls over to zero. The time information is read
from these secondary registers, while the clock continues
to run. This eliminates the need to reread the registers
in case the main registers update during a read.

So if you do a multi-byte read to get the lot at once, then it should be 
coherent. I saw some code to do this somewhere, but I have lost track of it.

Le 14 févr. 2014 à 23:20, d0ct0r a écrit :

> I would like to ask an advise for following:
> 
> Lets say I have a DS3232 RTC connected by I2C to some MCU. The maximum 
> allowed I2C bus speed is 400KHZ. And I need to read time (HH:MM:SS) from it. 
> It will be THREE SEPARATE REQUESTS for each part (hours, minutes and 
> seconds). My concern: what if I start to read time at the edge, when it will 
> change itself inside of DS3232 ? Potentially, I could get weird results, like 
> hours and minutes stay the same, but seconds has changed. Or even worth - 
> hours is the same, but seconds and minutes has changed. Is there any method 
> to read all three values (HH:MM:SS) by one single requests ? Or is there any 
> other workaround for this issue ? Or it is not issue at all ? Thanks !
> 
> 
> -- 
> WBW,
> 
> V.P.
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[time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[mike cook]

Something that must be simple to explain, but that I can't get my head round.

I got a new 53230A.
When first using it, I measured my T-Bolt 10MHz using the internal 10MHz 
timebase and it came up short of 10MHz, 9.999 998 5xx. I wasn't worried about 
it as the counter only has a TCXO internal oscillator. So I fired up my PRS10 
and after leaving that on for some time, connected it to  Ext Ref. , changed to 
the ext time base and measured again. This time 10.000.000.00x. Then I switched 
the two references, measuring the PRS10 against the T-Bolt. Again I got 10MHz 
down to the 11th digit.
All that looked good so I have been using it with either the PRS10 locked to 
GPS, or the T-Bolt as the external time base.

After leaving it on (but not inactive) for a month, I did an Autocal. No 
problem.
I was wondering if that would have changed the internal time base frequency, 
but no, using that still gave similar figures to the above.

So at that point I decided to measure the Internal TB against my reference. So 
I connected the Int. Ref. Out to channel 1, connected my PRS10 ref to Ext. Ref 
In, selected the EXT time base and found that the count was 10MHz dead on?  
I don't get that at all.

in summary:
DUT against internal TB counts < 10MHz.To me that means that the internal 
timebase is a bit fast. Is that assumption correct?
DUT against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz
Internal TB against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz.   If my assumption above is 
correct, the count should be greater than 10MHz, no?

Can anyone shed any light on that?










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Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[mike cook]

Le 17 févr. 2014 à 13:49, gandal...@aol.com a écrit :

> Hi Michael
>  
> "Internal reference out" is likely to be of the actual reference in use, ie 
> with an external reference connected that's what will be on the output 
> connector and would explain what you're seeing.
>  
> Your initial test, using the T'bolt and internal reference should be giving 
> you the accurate measure of the internal reference.
>  
  Thanks guys. That would explain it, but there is nothing I can see in the doc 
which confirms it. I will see if I have a 5MHz or 1MHz oscillator that I could 
use to check that. 

> Regards
>  
> Nigel
> GM8PZR

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Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[mike cook]

t; The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted 
>>>>> copy of the ref in.
>>>>> 
>>>>> /tvb (i5s)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those 
>>>>>> digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. 
>>>>>> MHz in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The 
>>>>>> internal oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the 
>>>>>> external input through a fairly narrow analog loop. The idea is to clean 
>>>>>> up the crud on the standard line. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With no external reference, the PLL drops out and you go back to what 
>>>>>> ever the local reference is. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes there’s a little more to it than that and no the circuit is not 
>>>>>> exactly the same on every counter HP ever made. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:55 AM, wb6bnq  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The most likely answer is when you select external time base for an 
>>>>>>> input, it disables the connection for the internal oscillator.  The 
>>>>>>> external input signal is probably also routed straight to the reference 
>>>>>>> output jack.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> However, it would be good to read the manual, as they usually cover how 
>>>>>>> those connections work.  Otherwise, perhaps someone that owns one could 
>>>>>>> provide further insight.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> BillWB6BNQ
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> mike cook wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Something that must be simple to explain, but that I can't get my head 
>>>>>>>> round.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I got a new 53230A.
>>>>>>>> When first using it, I measured my T-Bolt 10MHz using the internal 
>>>>>>>> 10MHz timebase and it came up short of 10MHz, 9.999 998 5xx. I wasn't 
>>>>>>>> worried about it as the counter only has a TCXO internal oscillator. 
>>>>>>>> So I fired up my PRS10 and after leaving that on for some time, 
>>>>>>>> connected it to  Ext Ref. , changed to the ext time base and measured 
>>>>>>>> again. This time 10.000.000.00x. Then I switched the two references, 
>>>>>>>> measuring the PRS10 against the T-Bolt. Again I got 10MHz down to the 
>>>>>>>> 11th digit.
>>>>>>>> All that looked good so I have been using it with either the PRS10 
>>>>>>>> locked to GPS, or the T-Bolt as the external time base.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> After leaving it on (but not inactive) for a month, I did an Autocal. 
>>>>>>>> No problem.
>>>>>>>> I was wondering if that would have changed the internal time base 
>>>>>>>> frequency, but no, using that still gave similar figures to the above.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So at that point I decided to measure the Internal TB against my 
>>>>>>>> reference. So I connected the Int. Ref. Out to channel 1, connected my 
>>>>>>>> PRS10 ref to Ext. Ref In, selected the EXT time base and found that 
>>>>>>>> the count was 10MHz dead on?  I don't get that at all.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> in summary:
>>>>>>>> DUT against internal TB counts < 10MHz.To me that means that the 
>>>>>>>> internal timebase is a bit fast. Is that assumption correct?
>>>>>>>> DUT against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz
>>>>>>>> Internal TB against Ext.Ref counts 10MHz.   If my assumption above 
>>>>>>>> is correct, the count should be greater than 10MHz, no?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Can anyone shed any light on that?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?

[mike cook]

That was a wink, Said, not a howl... 


Le 19 févr. 2014 à 17:25, Said Jackson a écrit :

> Mike,
> 
> They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from 
> how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist 
> card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists?
> 
> Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own 
> money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded 
> with good low-cost used counters.
> 
> Bye,
> Said
> 
> Sent From iPhone
> 
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit :
>> 
>>> Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some 
>>> time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there 
>>> are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in 
>>> the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach 
>>> them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve 
>>> the product. 
>>> Thanks;
>>> Thomas Knox
>> 
>>  If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in 
>> effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase 
>> lock?  That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. 
>> It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator 
>> ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is 
>> ignored.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: li...@rtty.us
>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500
>>>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,
>>>> but nobody in?
>>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> Well at least this got me digging a little. 
>>>> 
>>>> If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external 
>>>> reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as 
>>>> an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option 
>>>> and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still 
>>>> using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). 
>>>> 
>>>> The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a 
>>>> bit of a surprise ….
>> 
>> No sticker on mine. 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab)  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> TomK,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this 
>>>>> issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a 
>>>>> few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That 
>>>>> plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were 
>>>>> cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they 
>>>>> thought this was "ok" for a bench instrument.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can 
>>>>> actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter).
>>>>> 
>>>>> I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can 
>>>>> help them fix the problem.
>>>>> 
>>>>> /tvb
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have asked Agilent 
>>>>>> if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal 
>>>>>> oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal 
>>>>>> applied. I thought 
>>>>>> Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were
>>>>>> indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal 
>>>>>> applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen 
>>>>>> configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I 
>>>>>> think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. 
>>>>>> Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to 
>>>>>> Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or 
>

Re: [time-nuts] 5370 processor boards available

[mike cook]

Le 28 févr. 2014 à 02:55, Brian Lloyd a écrit :

> And after all that, *STILL* no one has been able to answer the question,
> "Is there a problem that must be solved?" Oh, lots of supposition, rules of
> thumb, boatloads of experience, etc., but still no determination that
> something really needs to be solved.

 It depends on what level of security is required. I don't have one of these 
boxes, but it is legitimate to identify possible weak points.
Volatile file systems are one of those. The original box had no issues on that 
front. Embedded systems such as linux with flash memory do.
I have just had a Soekris FreeBSD NTP server go feet up due to file system 
corruption caused by a power failure. It is no great deal to create a new 
system, but I hadn't made a drop duplicate flash card so it will take some 
time. So one NTP server is down for a day. If a proud owner of one of these 
great boards doesn't care about that sort of issue, then OK, else one of the 
suggestions imposes.
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Re: [time-nuts] TSIP protocol for T-Bolt

[mike cook]

Le 25 mars 2014 à 22:43, d0ct0r a écrit :

> 
> Today I spent good part of my time to figure out that my version of 
> Thunderbolt has some issue with the TSIP protocol definition. I am using 
> following document: "ThunderBolt GPS Disciplined Clock User Guide, Version 
> 5.0, Part Number: 35326-30, November 2003"
> 
> In that particular PDF file, there is definition for 0x8F-AB TSIP packet 
> [section A.10.30 Report Packet 0x8F-AB Primary Timing Packet].
> 
> Here is the structure of 8F-AB, translated to plain C-code:
> 
> 
> typedef struct tb_8f_ab {
>   uint8_t sub;//0: 1
>   uint32_t tow;   //1-4  : 4
>   uint16_t wn;//5-6  : 2
>   int16_t ls; //7-8  : 2
>   uint8_t tflag;  //9: 1
>   uint8_t sec;//10   : 1
>   uint8_t min;//11   : 1
>   uint8_t hr; //12   : 1
>   uint8_t day;//13   : 1
>   uint8_t month;  //14   : 1
>   uint16_t year;  //15-16 : 2
> } mytb_8f_ab;
> 
> 
> Here is the dump I get from my MCU:
> 
> //0x10 0x8F 0xAB 0x0 0x3 0x92 0x88 0x6 0xF9 0x0 0x10 0x10 0x3 0x2C 0x1 0x11 
> 0x19 0x3 0x7 0xDE 0x10 0x3
> //0x10 0x8F 0xAB 0x0 0x3 0xCC 0x16 0x6 0xF9 0x0 0x10 0x10 0x3 0x12 0x7 0x15 
> 0x19 0x3 0x7 0xDE 0x10 0x3

  
 how are you dumping this?
 you have an imbedded (stuffed)DLE, which is sent as DLE/DLE but the 
second is to be ignored.
  
> 
> Which is conform to TSIP standard packet definition:
> 
> TSIP packet structure is the same for both commands and reports. The packet 
> format is:
> 
> Where:
> •  is the byte 0x10
> •  is the byte 0x03
> •  is a packet identifier byte, which can have any value excepting
>  and .

 Ex: In the tsip developer tool kit , from TsipParser.c

case TSIP_IN_PARTIAL:
// The parser is in this state if a previous character was
// a part of the TSIP data. As noted above, a DLE character
// can be a part of the TSIP data in which case another DLE
// character is present in the data stream. So, here we look 
// at the next character in the stream (currently loaded in 
// ucByte). If it is a DLE character, we just encountered
// a stuffed DLE byte. In that case, we ignore this byte
// and go back to the TSIP_DLE state. That way, we will log
// only one DLE byte which was a part of the TSIP data.
//
// All other non-DLE characters are placed in the TSIP packet
// buffere.
if (ucByte == DLE) 
{
nParseState = TSIP_DLE;
}
else 
{
ucPkt[nPktLen++] = ucByte;
}
break;
> 
> However, its appeared that my T-Bolt throwing one "extra" byte for the 
> so-called "Timing Flags".
> There is 19 bytes coming from my T-Bolt, instead of expected 18. I found that 
> actual length of TFLAG is 16 bit - not 8. Interesting enough, that Lady 
> Heather works perfectly fine with that T-Bolt !
> 
> Can somebody confirm that there is different version of T-Bolt on the market 
> ? If so, where I need to look for the documentation for my version ?
> 
> 
> -- 
> WBW,
> 
> V.P.
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Re: [time-nuts] Jitter Definition

[mike cook]

Check also JEDEC standard 65B 
 cited in a SiTime 
doc 
 
describes the types.

Le 17 avr. 2014 à 04:54, HagaaarTheHorrible a écrit :

> Hello there,
> 
> I tried searching the archives (and google, IEEE, NIST, ITU), but didn't 
> really find a satisfying answer, so I thought I'd ask directly.
> 
> In short:
> Is there any kind of standard definition for Jitter which is commonly 
> accepted? 
> 
> I (think I) understood Jitter and phase noise by now, yet I need to give some 
> references in my bachelor's thesis, so I'm looking for a definition. So far I 
> haven't found a real definition of the different "types" (RMS,p2p,c2c,...) 
> and components(RJ,DJ) of Jitter, but I guess there must be some kind of 
> accepted standard!?
> If anyone could point me to some "official sources" which are "accepted in 
> the industry", I'd be very grateful.
> 
> Thanks in advance and best regards
> 
> Hag
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Re: [time-nuts] New timing receivers?

[mike cook]

A couple of points I discovered while building these things.

 This morning I got an Adafruit Ultimate (MTK3999) and a uBlox neo-6M module. 
 The first thing I discovered after looking at the specs , was that both have 
on board LDO 3.3V regulators, so you can feed them 5V without harm. I had 
wanted to make up an interface board with usb power and a DB9 serial interface 
for them , but found that I already  had something that looked to fit the bill 
even though not the same size as these micro modules. I have some Trimble 
Resolution Ts and  SMTs for which I have bought PPS-Piggy interface boards from 
Partially Stapled, marketed by Tindie.com (disclaimer as usual). I think they 
have been mentioned here. These two little modules interface perfectly. You 
just have to re-map the socket when wiring up. It looks like just about any of 
the modern boards will do so, though you won't get all the chip pin outs . The 
only issue for me this morning was picking up the TIMEPULSE(1PPS) from the 
neo-6M. Ideally , to get a robust pin-out I would have drilled a hole next to 
the 4 supplied, put a via in and then a standard pin. I don't have the tools to 
do that and even then it might have been iffy as the hole would go through the 
ground plane, leading to possible isolation issues. So what I did, was to use 
one of the mounting holes which are isolated and lead the wire from there to 
the chip pin 3  over the back of the module and up through the central hole. 
Soldering that end wasn't easy. I first tried tacking it directly to the chip 
pad after I had scraped it a little to remove any varnish, though I don't think 
there is any, but for some reason I could not get a good join. So I scraped of 
a couple of mm of the pin3 trace down to the copper. I went really carefully as 
I suspect it is just a few  microns thick. Soldering the wire to the trace 
enabled me to get a good joint and both the 1PPS to pin and the LED work fine. 

I have photos: 



Le 29 avr. 2014 à 16:43, Attila Kinali a écrit :

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2014 08:02:06 -0400 (EDT)
> ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> Looks like they are doing exactly what I suggested as one of the  
>> alternatives for saw tooth correction. They have a VCTCXO in the module, 
>> with  the 
>> computing power in their chip a no brainer. the question is how much will it 
>>  
>> cost and how important will it be for a GPSDO. Final cost at maximum 
>> accuracy is  what counts
> 
> Judging from their other parts, i would say resonable prices start
> from 20 pieces onwards.
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
> the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
> even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
> superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
>   -- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] Battery Part # For Motorola M12+T ???

[mike cook]

Le 6 mai 2014 à 21:56, Pascual Arbona Lopez a écrit :

>The model is MR621  (Panasonic)

 Mine are marked ML621 

> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Jason Rabel" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 9:33 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Battery Part # For Motorola M12+T ???
> 
> 
>> As the subject says, does anyone know what the battery part # is for the 
>> Motorola Oncore M12+T ???
>> 
>> My GPS module has the socket, just missing the battery.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks...
>> 
>> ___
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> 
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[time-nuts] wander and jitter measurements

[mike cook]

A few dumb questions:

But first a quote from the ITU ( doc G.180 )

""4.1.12 (timing) jitter: The short-term variations of the significant instants 
of a timing signal from
their ideal positions in time (where short-term implies that these variations 
are of frequency greater
than or equal to 10 Hz).

4.1.15 wander: The long-term variations of the significant instants of a 
digital signal from their
ideal position in time (where long-term implies that these variations are of 
frequency less than
10 Hz).
NOTE – For the purposes of this Recommendation and related Recommendations, 
this definition does
not include wander caused by frequency offsets and drifts.""

DQ1. These both refer to phase variations, so with the exception of the 
frequency range specified, are they mathematically equivalent?

DQ2.  The note on wander excludes frequency offsets, but that is not specified 
for jitter, so do I have to include a frequency offset in jitter measurements? 
It seems to me that it make no sense to do so.

DQ3.  Can I deduce an underlying frequency offset from jitter (wander) by  
taking an RMS value over some window of values? 


regards,
Mike

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Re: [time-nuts] wander and jitter measurements

[mike cook]

Thanks for your responses and the links.

My DQ3, Can I deduce offset from jitter comes from the following and while 
Bill's response was a succinct NO, I am still wondering.

Maybe it's my interpretation of "nominal" and "ideal". Here is scenario :

I have a 1PPS which is offset from a reference (PRS10 in this instance) by 
+750ns . If I take the wander about the "ideal" as per G.810 , it is 
systematically +ve by that figure, + or - some ps , so the offset is shown in 
these figures. However, if I take the DUT's signal as being "nominal" as per 
Magnus's statement, ie using the DUT's signal as reference, then of course I 
cannot see the offset.   

Mike


Le 29 juin 2014 à 02:02, Magnus Danielson a écrit :

> Mike,
> 
> A frequency offset is just a long term shift from nominal rate.
> 
> Wander is "slow" variations and jitter is "fast" variations of phase.
> The separation between "slow" and "fast" is a bit arbitrary, but the 10 Hz 
> division-line is handy as it describes different sources, where wander is the 
> in-bandwidth noise accumulation where as jitter is usually damped pretty well 
> by being outside of the jitter bandwidth.
> 
> See ITU-T G.810, G.813, G.823-825.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 06/27/2014 07:37 PM, bill wrote:
>> On 6/26/2014 2:39 AM, mike cook wrote:
>>> A few dumb questions:
>>> 
>>> But first a quote from the ITU ( doc G.180 )
>>> 
>>> ""4.1.12 (timing) jitter: The short-term variations of the significant
>>> instants of a timing signal from
>>> their ideal positions in time (where short-term implies that these
>>> variations are of frequency greater
>>> than or equal to 10 Hz).
>>> 
>> DQ1 yes
>> 
>> DQ2 Frequency offset would come into the Wander category except it
>> defined differently.
>> 
>> DQ3 No
>> 
>> 
>> That gives my take on your q questions. Its been 23 years since I had
>> think about jitter and wander as chairman of T1X1.3 committee
>> 
>> Bill
>> K7NOM
>>> 4.1.15 wander: The long-term variations of the significant instants of
>>> a digital signal from their
>>> ideal position in time (where long-term implies that these variations
>>> are of frequency less than
>>> 10 Hz).
>>> NOTE – For the purposes of this Recommendation and related
>>> Recommendations, this definition does
>>> not include wander caused by frequency offsets and drifts.""
>>> 
>>> DQ1. These both refer to phase variations, so with the exception of
>>> the frequency range specified, are they mathematically equivalent?
>>> 
>>> DQ2.  The note on wander excludes frequency offsets, but that is not
>>> specified for jitter, so do I have to include a frequency offset in
>>> jitter measurements? It seems to me that it make no sense to do so.
>>> 
>>> DQ3.  Can I deduce an underlying frequency offset from jitter (wander)
>>> by  taking an RMS value over some window of values?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> regards,
>>> Mike
>>> 
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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[time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from maia.usno.navy.mil?

[mike cook]

times out. Can I get it from anywhere else?
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from maia.usno.navy.mil?

[mike cook]

Works for me too now.. I thought that maybe .mil was under a DOS attack. Thanks 
for the second source.
 
Le 9 juil. 2014 à 14:30, Brian Inglis a écrit :

> On 2014-07-09 01:30, mike cook wrote:
>> times out. Can I get it from anywhere else?
> 
> http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/bulb.dat
> works for me - the original is at
> ftp://hpiers.obspm.fr/iers/bul/bulb_new/bulletinb.dat
> 
> -- 
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from maia.usno.navy.mil?

[mike cook]

Looks like my problem is back:

/usr/local/bin/wget -O /tmp/finals-all 
http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all &2> /dev/null

gets 
--2014-07-11 15:35:27--  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
Resolving maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)... 199.211.133.23
Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
failed: Operation timed out.
Retrying.

--2014-07-11 15:36:51--  (try: 2)  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
failed: Operation timed out.
Retrying.

The finals.all data does not seem to be available from iers, but just through 
usno. I use is to create graphs of UTC-UT1 delta.  
I was looking today as I wanted to add to my graph the difference between the 
observed and predicted values since the records started. Unfortunately it did 
not occur to me to backup the source data.



Le 9 juil. 2014 à 15:15, mike cook a écrit :

> Works for me too now.. I thought that maybe .mil was under a DOS attack. 
> Thanks for the second source.
> 
> Le 9 juil. 2014 à 14:30, Brian Inglis a écrit :
> 
>> On 2014-07-09 01:30, mike cook wrote:
>>> times out. Can I get it from anywhere else?
>> 
>> http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/bulb.dat
>> works for me - the original is at
>> ftp://hpiers.obspm.fr/iers/bul/bulb_new/bulletinb.dat
>> 
>> -- 
>> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from maia.usno.navy.mil?

[mike cook]

Thanks for the info. I'll try later. 

On the subject of raw data, I can't find Bulletin A  in the iers site. The 
README indicates that it is under the /bul dir, but it seems to have gone.

Mike
Le 11 juil. 2014 à 16:40, Tom Van Baak a écrit :

> Mike,
> 
> I also have had occasional trouble with usno.navy.mil the past year. It 
> always works in the end, but sometimes I have to try more than once, or a 
> different ISP or a different browser or a different computer/os. Note also 
> there are times when wget fails but Chrome works perfectly (just SaveAs the 
> text file). I have not spent time debugging the strange issue.
> 
> You can also try different URL's, such as:
> ftp://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
> http://toshi.nofs.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
> 
> Another idea is to click *through* http://toshi.nofs.navy.mil/ to get the 
> file(s) you want, rather than a *direct* wget.
> 
> Last idea is to get your raw data from a non .mil site. Try 
> http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/ and click on the "earth orientation data" tab.
> 
> If you completely give up, I can send you the UT1 data myself.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "mike cook" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 6:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from 
> maia.usno.navy.mil?
> 
> 
> Looks like my problem is back:
> 
> /usr/local/bin/wget -O /tmp/finals-all 
> http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all &2> /dev/null
> 
> gets 
> --2014-07-11 15:35:27--  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
> Resolving maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)... 199.211.133.23
> Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
> failed: Operation timed out.
> Retrying.
> 
> --2014-07-11 15:36:51--  (try: 2)  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
> Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
> failed: Operation timed out.
> Retrying.
> 
> The finals.all data does not seem to be available from iers, but just through 
> usno. I use is to create graphs of UTC-UT1 delta.  
> I was looking today as I wanted to add to my graph the difference between the 
> observed and predicted values since the records started. Unfortunately it did 
> not occur to me to backup the source data.
> 
> 
> 
> Le 9 juil. 2014 à 15:15, mike cook a écrit :
> 
>> Works for me too now.. I thought that maybe .mil was under a DOS attack. 
>> Thanks for the second source.
>> 
>> Le 9 juil. 2014 à 14:30, Brian Inglis a écrit :
>> 
>>> On 2014-07-09 01:30, mike cook wrote:
>>>> times out. Can I get it from anywhere else?
>>> 
>>> http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/bulb.dat
>>> works for me - the original is at
>>> ftp://hpiers.obspm.fr/iers/bul/bulb_new/bulletinb.dat
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone having a problem getting Bulletin B from maia.usno.navy.mil?

[mike cook]

Thanks Brian,
  Surprise, surprise I can get access this morning.


Le 12 juil. 2014 à 05:02, Brian Inglis a écrit :

> On 2014-07-11 07:54, mike cook wrote:
>> Looks like my problem is back:
>> 
>> /usr/local/bin/wget -O /tmp/finals-all 
>> http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all &2> /dev/null
>> 
>> gets
>> --2014-07-11 15:35:27--  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
>> Resolving maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)... 199.211.133.23
>> Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
>> failed: Operation timed out.
>> Retrying.
>> 
>> --2014-07-11 15:36:51--  (try: 2)  http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/finals.all
>> Connecting to maia.usno.navy.mil (maia.usno.navy.mil)|199.211.133.23|:80... 
>> failed: Operation timed out.
>> Retrying.
> 
> Still no problems on primary maia (from outside US) but
> backup toshi not available right now.
> 
> See note on http://maia.usno.navy.mil page about getusnoeop.ksh
> script and README. Customize and schedule to get your products
> from primary or backup servers as soon as they are posted
> (after 17.10UTC).
> 
>> The finals.all data does not seem to be available from iers, but just 
>> through usno.
>> I use is to create graphs of UTC-UT1 delta.
>> I was looking today as I wanted to add to my graph the difference between 
>> the observed
>> and predicted values since the records started.
> 
> Bulletin A is a USNO only product.
> IERS EOP PC data products are produced only weekly or end one month ago.
> 
>> Unfortunately it did not occur to me to backup the source data.
> 
> I believe the above script may keep some backups.
> 
> -- 
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
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Re: [time-nuts] Time in Phone System

[mike cook]

Works in France too. But someone has to call to get it set. 


Le 22 juil. 2014 à 06:40, Mark Sims a écrit :

> Yes,  the caller ID data has time in it.   There are chips out there that 
> decode caller ID.  I  signaling format isially is the old Bell 202 modem 
> protocol.  The caller ID devices sort of half way answer the phone line when 
> it detects the incoming call and the caller ID info is sent after the first 
> ring.   
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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather error when going full screen

[mike cook]

That and F11 (toggle fs mode) works fine for me:
LH version 3.10


Le 3 août 2014 à 19:15, Chris Wilson a écrit :

> 
> 
>  03/08/2014 18:12
> 
> Since  upgrading to a new desktop PC running Windows 7 pro 64 bit lady
> heather  crashes  if  I  use the top right "full screen" windows click
> box.  If  I use a command line to change screen size it enlarges fine.
> it  never  did this under XP pro. I managed to catch the very fleeting
> error  by  pressing  "Print  Screen"  umpteen  times until i was quick
> enough  to  grab  it.  the  error is repeatable every time and I post a
> screen shot at htpp://www.gatesgarth.com/heather_error.jpg
> 
> Is there an e-mail address for John Miles I might send it to if no one
> knows what it means? thanks
> 
> -- 
>   Best Regards,
>   Chris Wilson.
> mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Lamp for FRK Rubidium Needed

[mike cook]

Le 10 août 2014 à 12:01, Peter a écrit :
> 
> I have checked it against my Racal ovened reference and found a discrepancy
> of about 0.8 Hz.
> 
> Now the million dollar question...Can I be sure the FRK is good before I
> start to use it as my standard frequency?
> 
> Is the FRK constructed in such a way that the frequency accuracy is assured,
> or do I need some way of verifying the FRK, or calibrating it.
> 
> I dont want to trim my ovened reference to the rubidium, only to find the
> rubidium is not as accurate as I thought?
> 
> Sorry if dumb questions, but just starting my quest for "time nut" status!!!
> 
   
Ahhh !   A man with two clocks.

Not much help I am afraid , but  you need a better ref. 


> Thanks
> 
> Peter
> G0RSQ
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: NPLTime® - a new service providing a precise time signal directly traceable to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) and independent of GPS.

[mike cook]

WOW!   Guaranteeing compliance with FINRA OATS 7430 !

Here it is..

All computer system clocks and mechanical time stamping devices must be 
synchronized to within three seconds of the National Institute of Standards and 
Technology (NIST) atomic clock."

They are going to have their work cut out.. dedicated fibre cable.. will they 
even be able to get close?



Le 14 août 2014 à 18:24, David J Taylor a écrit :

> From the UK:
> 
> The National Physical Laboratory (NPL) has signed a distribution agreement 
> with trading technology company Intergence to deliver NPLTime® - a new 
> service providing a precise time signal directly traceable to Coordinated 
> Universal Time (UTC) and independent of GPS.  More:
> 
> http://www.npl.co.uk/news/intergence-invests-in-npltime?utm_source=measurementnews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=august2014
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> -- 
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 
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Re: [time-nuts] CW12-TIM

[mike cook]

Le 31 août 2014 à 16:22, Mike Seguin a écrit :

> I just started working with a Navsync CW12-TIM. I'm interested in programming 
> the freq output.
> 
> What's the best software to use?

  I was looking for an app for the CW46, which uses the same GPS engine. The 
Navsync doc mentions NS3KView and I eventually found a download link, via 
Connor  Winfield. I couldn't see a link on the Navsync Site.

That is the installer. It installs OK on Win7 64bit with compatability options 
selected. 
Appears to work fine.


> TIA
> Mike
> -- 
> 
> 73,
> Mike, N1JEZ
> "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
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Re: [time-nuts] WTB: GPS Antenna Splitter

[mike cook]

Le 7 oct. 2014 à 03:09, Bob Camp a écrit :

> Hi
> 
> Missed the survey question… 
> 
> If a ns in free air is about 1 foot (30 cm), then you probably want a survey 
> that is better than 6” to keep the error down. You do not want to have the 
> antennas on top of each other, so yes, the GPS will need a survey / location 
> each time you change antennas. If you go with the 10’ spacing, then you will 
> get some pretty big jumps without switching the location. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Oct 6, 2014, at 4:01 PM, Dave M  wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone in the group have, or can point me to, a low-cost (but not 
>> cheap) 2-port splitter for a GPS antenna?  Those on Ebay are rather 
>> expensive.

 I use micro-circuits power splitters, ZN4PD1-50-S+, to which I add DC blocking 
and load to all but one output which is used to power the antennas. Attenuation 
is low and port isolation adequate (at least I can detect no performance loss 
with 4 receivers connected). I have three now in service and haven't paid more 
than $60 a piece including transport from the US. I have also used 2 port 
ZN2PD-2000s, no relegated to the spares box. 

>> 
>> I have two GPSDO units, and have both an older timing antenna and a new 
>> choke ring antenna (Thanks, Pete L).  I already have one 2-port splitter 
>> (working well), but my intent is to connect both antennas through the 
>> splitters and a couple coaxial relays so that I can, with the twist of a 
>> switch, allow me to run each GPS from a different antenna, or both from the 
>> same antenna.  I would like to gather some data as to the differences 
>> between the two antennas.  I know I could switch the connections manually, 
>> but I like the idea of a switch to sort of automate the connections, and I'd 
>> need another splitter anyway.
>> 
>> Before I go to the trouble and expense of building upon this idea, are there 
>> any comments as to the value of the project?

I haven't put coax switches in the paths but I do manually switch new receivers 
between the three different antennae that I have to see how they respond. I can 
detect, via the signal strength bars in the various GPS utilities, that there 
are differences in antenna performance, and receiver sensitivity, but have not 
seen any significant survey position differences from spec, though I only have 
patch antennae. I have done ADEV measurements and don't see any  significant 
difference between different antenna sources. Before today I have not done any 
investigation on the effect of different antennae on PPS phase. So I am just 
eyeballing that of a ublox 6M as I type this. With all 3 antennae I do not see 
more than a few nano seconds phase offset using the same receiver . I am using 
a T-Bolt PPS to trigger the scope. However, the PPS does does slew around in 
time, maybe due to the relatively poor sky view that I have, or T-Bolt PPS 
issue. I have two receivers on the scope ( a Trimble SMT is
  the other which has been kept on the same antenna during the test) and both 
are showing the same issue. For a time-nut this looks like a useful field of 
investigation. 

>> Some questions come to mind:
>> I'm thinking about mounting both antennas on the same mast, at the same 
>> elevation, just separated by a couple feet.  Any problems that I should be 
>> aware of by putting both antennas so close together?  Will that small 
>> distance have a noticeable effect when switching a receiver from one antenna 
>> to the other?  Will the GPS notice the difference and want to do another 
>> survey?

I have never seen any survey restart on antenna disconnect/reconnect . No 
effect on the T-Bolt, or Z3801A and I think that this only occurs on request or 
on power up depending on available date or receiver design.

>> 
>> Thanks for your comments.
>> Dave M 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS jump

[mike cook]

Le 10 oct. 2014 à 03:09, Bob Camp a écrit :

> Hi
> 
> GPS is steered by the Air Force last time I checked. 
> 
> A really good place to check is the NIST Time and Frequency pages that show 
> both real time and historical data for each GPS sat compared to NIST time:
> 
> http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/gpsarchive.cfm
> 
> Hopefully it’s accessible via that link from a variety of locations. 
> 
> Since the NIST data is independent of the steering (two different outfits 
> involved) it should not be vulnerable to a “our ground segment broke and we 
> steered everything to match” sort of error. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Oct 9, 2014, at 7:43 PM, Jim Palfreyman  wrote:
> 
>> Folks,
>> 
>> We look after 5 separate hydrogen masers spread all over Australia and we
>> collect tic phases between the masers and the GPS.
>> 
>> On around ~Oct 7 we have noticed that the normal steady straight line (with
>> standard daily noise) took a noticeable downward turn - on all 5 masers.

  I remember Jim reported a similar issue back in october last year:


>> On 2013-10-03 05:33, Jim Palfreyman wrote:
>> 
>>> Noticed an above average bump in our H-Maser vs GPS graphs - from sites
>>> all
>>> over Australia.
>>> 
>>> Recent coronal mass ejection or US government shutdown not updating GPS?
>>> 
>>> Anyone else seen it?
>>> 
>> 
>> drop out gap between about 04.21-04.26 UTC?
>> clockstats.20131003:
>> 56568 15684.876 127.127.20.4 $GPRMC 042124 A ...
>> 56568 16004.862 127.127.20.4 $GPRMC 042644 A ...
>> peerstats.20131003:
>> 56568 15684.876 127.127.20.4 961a -0.02270 ... 0.05344
>> 56568 16004.862 127.127.20.4 961a -0.13150 ... 0.15721
>> loopstats.20131003:
>> 56568 15684.876 -0.02270 0.899 0.07071 0.70 4
>> 56568 16004.862 -0.13150 0.898 0.08830 0.000114 4


  That dates are close enough to make you wonder if it is not part of some 
cycle.

>> 
>> Did anyone else who tracks H-masers notice this as well?
>> 
>> Is it JPL making corrections?
>> 
>> 
>> Jim Palfreyman
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Re: [time-nuts] "GPS once a day issues" ?

[mike cook]

The constellation may repeat at 12hr intervals , but at any static position you 
will only see one per day , no? , the other being 180 degrees way.  I only get 
one regular bump.


Le 20 oct. 2014 à 09:43, Magnus Danielson a écrit :

> Bob,
> 
> Since the satellite orbit the earth with a period of 11 hours and 58 minutes, 
> it is actually twice a day.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 10/20/2014 03:50 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The GPS constellation repeats roughly once a day. It is not at all uncommon 
>> to have a “worst case” sattelite  geometry for a given antenna location. If 
>> you have one, it will repeat once a day and show up as a bump in the timing 
>> out of your GPS module. If you track long term data, it will / may / can 
>> keep you from getting to the sort of stability you would expect in the 
>> 100,000 second range. It’s one of the main reasons that things like 
>> GPSD-Rb’s lock up with time constants much longer than 100K seconds. Yes 
>> having a Cs or something similar helps a lot looking for this sort of thing.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Bob Camp,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In your response to Chris, you said: "Once you have it “right” you really 
>>> need to check it over a month or two to watch for GPS “once a day” issues. "
>>> 
>>> Could I ask you what you meant by these "once a day issues"?  Was this a 
>>> general comment, or was it about something specific?  As you know I'm 
>>> working on a GPSDO and am doing a lot of testing, so if there's something 
>>> else I should be looking for, please let me know.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob - AE6RV
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10MHz Rubidium reference source for frequency counter

[mike cook]

Le 29 oct. 2014 à 08:32, Karen Tadevosyan a écrit :

> Thanks again for your explanations and advices.
> I raised this question as a ADEV measurement result of my GPSDO/NEO-7M is 
> about 1E-9 for tau = 1sec 
> http://www.ra3apw.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NEO7M_OCXO_MV89A_10M_2h0_ADEV.jpg
>  and it isn't meet my expectation. 
> In my understanding (before I published my question here) the reason for this 
> is not a good enough short range stability of my frequency counter's 
> reference OCXO that's why I had an idea to use external rubidium source.
> Now I see that even my internal reference OCXO provides a good ADEV value 
> 1E-10 for tau =1 sec (according Pendulum CNT-91 with opt.19 datasheet).   
> If so what can be a reason of not a good ADEV result of GPSDO/NEO-7M?

Without GPS steering, the oscillator that you have should be able to give you 
low 10^12 stability at tau 1s once it has been running for a few days. Have you 
measured it to see if it is reasonably stable when free running?, at least with 
a consistent drift. If it is not then GPS won't help. If it is a good rock , 
then try using a pot vary the frequency. If it won't steer then there maybe 
something wrong in the box, or if the osc is old, maybe you have hit the 
min/max adjustment limits. Have you monitored your EFC corrections? You may 
have a too short time constant or too course adjustments causing overshoots.

> Karen, ra3apw
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] question about Thunderbolt geo acuracy

[mike cook]

A man with only one GPS 

  Surveys from different receivers I have. All  taken at the same 
height from prolonged surveys. WGS84 datum.


 Oncore UT+ A  207,62m
 Oncore UT+ B  209,24m
 Z3801A 180,72m
 Oncore VP   A  229,95m
 TBolt  207.00m



Le 10/05/2012 14:50, swingbyte a écrit :

Hi all,
Hope this isn't too chat roomy, however, I have need of a survey 
precise geolocation type gps.  I was wondering if the precise timing 
abilities extend to its precision in position output?  I have a 
thunderbolt and one of those conical white aerials from china and 
would like to know if this combination will give me accurate height data.


Thanks

Tim

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Re: [time-nuts] question about Thunderbolt geo acuracy

[mike cook]

Le 10/05/2012 15:51, Jim Lux a écrit :

On 5/10/12 6:42 AM, mike cook wrote:

A man with only one GPS 

Surveys from different receivers I have. All taken at the same height
from prolonged surveys. WGS84 datum.

Oncore UT+ A 207,62m
Oncore UT+ B 209,24m
Z3801A 180,72m
Oncore VP A 229,95m
TBolt 207.00m



That's a pretty big variation (10s of meters), a lot more than I'd 
expect (I'd expect variations more like the difference between the two 
UT+s and the Tbolt).

I wonder what about the VP and Z3801 fixes pushes them so far away.


May have an explanation for the Z3801A fix. I have just seen in my 
notes  that the Z3801A was displaying MSL and not WGS84 .


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Re: [time-nuts] question about Thunderbolt geo accuracy

[mike cook]

Le 10/05/2012 21:50, Jim Lux a écrit :

On 5/10/12 9:18 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
.

Hi all,
Hope this isn't too chat roomy, however, I have need of a survey 
precise

geolocation type gps.  I was wondering if the precise timing abilities
extend to its precision in position output?  I have a thunderbolt and
one of those conical white aerials from china and would like to know if
this combination will give me accurate height data.



It will give "pretty good" height data.  Within a few meters but you
have to know how to translate between different definitions of "sea
level" to make best use of the data.


I found an online WGS84-MSL converter at:

however for my location this gives the geoid height at 51,89m wrt MSL 
and if I apply that to my Z3801A reported height it make the difference 
with my TBolt even greater.  I had read elsewhere , though I can't find 
the reference, that the difference at my latitude is more like 30m which 
would make more sense.


Can someone with a Z3801A  check the result for their location?



If you live in the USA you can now download for free the USGS
topographic maps.   I'm pretty sure thy have full coverage of all of
the US.  THese will have 20 foot contour intervals and you can
interpolate to at least half that.   So for most normal purposes you
can find your elevation without a GPS.   Just look on the topo map.

Most of these maps where made with stereo camera pairs.  They get
relative elevation optically by matching the two images and then they
sent survey teams to ground check some points.





And updated the elevation data with radar measurements from SRTM, as 
well.


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Re: [time-nuts] Why 9,192,631,770 ??

[mike cook]

Le 11/05/2012 07:14, Peter Monta a écrit :

Are there better estimates of the ET second nowadays (relative to the
SI second)?  It would be interesting to know what the cesium frequency
"should have been" if much better estimates of the ephemeris-time
second were available at the time.  One would think that with all the
solar-system data JPL and others have had at their disposal since the
1970s, a very good ET-second number could be cooked up; better than
1950s Moon cameras at any rate.


There are various refs in the pedia to later estimates. Markowitz (1988) 
calculated an agreement to 1x10-10.  but looking at the article I see 
there were still some uncertainty in terms used to calculate ET and 
depending on what was chosen gave 2x10-11 .  Accordingly he concludes 
conservatively that ET has been equal to Si within 1x10-9.
The uncertainties will have been reduced since then but not eliminated 
and so "should have been"  is a moving target but it would appear from 
the above that the chosen SI value would still be preferred if the 
decision was to be reappraised.



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Re: [time-nuts] TU-60 Instruction to set NMEA output

[mike cook]

Hi Merv,
   I found the Navman Jupiter designers guide which has the message 
formats. What you need is message 1331.


 Tac32 supports this receiver, so there should be a possibility at 
setup to specify NMEA protocol. Else stuff it a 1331 .


The guide is at 



 It tells you how  messages are constructed. You should be able to work 
out the @@ format.  Good hunting.

Mike

Le 11/05/2012 16:13, Merv Thomas a écrit :

Hi,

I am new to timenuts.

Is anyone able to give me the binary command sentence/code to send to 
my Jupiter TU-60 to change it's output from Binary to NMEA please?


I assume it has to be a binary command starting with @@ but I am 
unable to find a suitable command using Tac32 control software.


Merv  VK6BMT

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Re: [time-nuts] Why are 1PPS signals so skinny?

[mike cook]

Le 14/05/2012 17:23, Mark Sims a écrit :

My first inclination,  if I were building a timing receiver,  would be to make 
the PPS output a nice,  symmetrical square wave.   But pretty much all GPS 
timing receivers output an anorexic,  dinky little heroin addicted supermodel 
sized pulse (from 1 to 150uS wide is typical).  
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NAVMAN Jupitr-T26 ms
ONCORE VP ~200ms
   UT+200ms
   M12T  1PPS 200ms 100Hz 2-3ms

these are all timing receivers and the signals will trip serial 
receivers without pulse stretching..


So the picture is not that gloomy.


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Re: [time-nuts] Pinouts for a Trimble Resolution T Timing GPS module 12ns 1pps

[mike cook]

Le 17/05/2012 09:24, Ken Kubick a écrit :

Does anyone have or know where I can find the pinouts for a Trimble Resolution 
T Timing GPS module 12ns 1pps?
  

http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-221342/ResolutionT_UG_2B_54655-05-ENG.pdf

 Has pinouts I think

Thankyou

Ken Kubick

kenkub...@hotmail.com   
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Re: [time-nuts] Software for Navman jupiter T Tu60 GPS 1pps 10khz GPS Module

[mike cook]

Le 18/05/2012 20:14, Ken Kubick a écrit :

Hi,  Time-Nuts guys anyone know where I can get software for a Navman jupiter T 
Tu60 GPS Kit 1pps 10khz GPS Module.
  

What you need depends on the protocol it powers up in.

If it is Motorola, you can talk to it with TAC32
If in Zodiac binary, then you can use labmon (dos window) or winlabmon.
Couldn't see them on the Navmon site but eventually found them at:

http://www.gpskit.nl/software/labmon/dos/labmon60.exe
http://www.gpskit.nl/software/labmon.../winlabmon.zip 



I don't have one of these receivers so although the software installs  
on XP I don't know if it works ok.



Thankyou

Ken Kubick  
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Re: [time-nuts] Software for Navman jupiter T Tu60 GPS 1pps 10khz GPS Module

[mike cook]

Agreed. I made the distinction as someone in a previous thread was 
indicating that they got a rockwell binary response on power on.


Le 19/05/2012 01:42, k4...@aol.com a écrit :

Mike,
The standard Jupiter-T should never power up in Rockwell binary.  You have to 
command it to go to binary with a special Motorola format message.

Regards,
Doug

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-Original message-
From: mike cook
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 20:08:40 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Software for Navman jupiter T Tu60 GPS 1pps 10khz GPS 
Module

Le 18/05/2012 20:14, Ken Kubick a écrit :

Hi,  Time-Nuts guys anyone know where I can get software for a Navman jupiter T 
Tu60 GPS Kit 1pps 10khz GPS Module.


What you need depends on the protocol it powers up in.

If it is Motorola, you can talk to it with TAC32
If in Zodiac binary, then you can use labmon (dos window) or winlabmon.
Couldn't see them on the Navmon site but eventually found them at:

http://www.gpskit.nl/software/labmon/dos/labmon60.exe
http://www.gpskit.nl/software/labmon.../winlabmon.zip
<http://www.gpskit.nl/software/labmon/win9x/winlabmon.zip>

I don't have one of these receivers so although the software installs
on XP I don't know if it works ok.


Thankyou

Ken Kubick  
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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather command line?

[mike cook]

Le 02/06/2012 09:22, ken johnson a écrit :

Hi, can someone please tell me how to get the satellite graphic plot
up on lady heather by using command line switches at program start?
If I enter s then 3 when the program is running I get some displays
up, but when I try to add the commands to the startup it gives me the
help text. I have tried /s=3, /s3 and /s 3 but none work.

try /gB


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Re: [time-nuts] ANN: UK MSF 60 kHz interruption, 2012 June 14

[mike cook]

Le 4 juin 2012 à 05:43, David I. Emery a écrit :

> On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 09:20:59AM -0700, J. Forster wrote:
>> Is there any indication the carriers of WWVB and MSF are locked together?
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> =
> 
>   Given it's only 60 KHz and certainly somewhere north of parts in
> 10^13 and probably  down to 10^14 or 10^15 the distinction kinda escapes
> one.
> 
>   They may not be locked to each other, but are so close in
> frequency that relative drift would be AWFULLY slow... especially if its
> more like 10^15 from primary maser standards...
> 
>   There are only 5.184 * 10^9 cycles of 60 KHz  in a day after
> all... and it takes a while for a error of a few parts in 10^15 to
> pile up to one whole cycle...
> 
 
>From the doc on NIST and NPL sites, we are not in maser country here. The 
>transmitters frequencies are disciplined by cesium standards.  For WWVB the 
>frequency is kept to a few parts in 10^13 ( NIST Special Publication 423) and 
>for MSF at 2 parts in 10^12 and are both sync'd to UTC(k).  As tvb points out, 
>the the received signal will be phase shifted according to TOD and atmospheric 
>conditions. The guys at NPL monitor(ed) the MSF signal to provide(ed) data for 
>anyone wanting to use it for calibration in monthly bulletins of performance. 
>I expect NIST do the same for WWVB but have been able to find a ref. Check out 
> and the last bulletin 
>that the site links point to , for april 2011, 
>. What is 
>interesting from the MSF data is that the phase offsets are quite significant 
>where they are received in what I expect are optimal conditions at midday when 
>ionospheric effects are minimal.  I don't know what happened to latter issues 
>if any.   Did they abandon them?

> 

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS NTP update on Mac OS-X 10.7.4

[mike cook]

Le 12 juin 2012 à 16:37, Ross T61AA a écrit :

> Hi all,
> 
> I recently connected up a USB GPS to my Linux box and found it quite easy to 
> get NTP to up from the GPS. I was hoping to get the same GPS to update the 
> Mac running Lion 10.7.4, however, it has been a very frustrating uphill 
> battle.
> 
> Has anybody managed to get GPS NTP update working on OS-X?
> 

A little detail of your issue might help. If you are using usb, I assume you 
are using the NMEA driver.  I don't have Lion, but 10.6. I did try out a 
mg1613s usb board with my MacBook and got it working with the following IIRC ( 
I disconnected it as I was just testing the device but that was back in 2010):

# Generic NMEA driver - default is timing at last message in stream 
# Serial Port: /dev/gpsu; 4800 baud, 8-bits, no parity
# 127.127.20.x mode y  where
# x is the com port number
# y is the mode which is a concatenation of message selection in bits 0-3
# 0 = use all messsages
# 1  = $GPRMC  etc   see the doc.
# bits 456 are the speed. value 0 = 4800, 16 = 9600,  etc
#  ex. mode 18 is just $GPGGA messages at 9600 bps
# server 127.127.20.1 mode 18
# fudge 127.127.20.1  time1 0.0 time2 0.0 stratum 8

 IIRC there was a time offset due to the message end being used as timing, 
which can be allowed for using the time2 fudge.

> 73
> 
> Ross
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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather V3.10 release

[mike cook]

Le 20/06/2012 10:22, John Miles a écrit :

Another long-awaited announcement:

http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/readme.htm

  


Highlights of V3.10:

  


- No longer a beta!

- Added support for Nortel NTGS50A-series receivers

- Added support for Resolution-T and Resolution SMT receivers

Thanks John,
Question?  Under 3.10 with a bog standard Tbolt I have "Saved Pos BAD" 
flagged.  The position is

39.517°N, 76.794°W
Recognise it?  Flashy place near Baltimor.
Unfortunately I had uninstalled 3.0 beta prior to installing 3.10 so I 
couldn't immediately check with that , but running Tboltmon I see my 
correct position reported.

Any ideas?
Regards, Mike



- Various other stuff added by Mark in the 18 months since the last 3.00
beta

  


The sole form of documentation is still the massive comment header in
heather.cpp, which is present in the installation directory alongside
heather.exe.  It can be pulled up in Notepad or another text editor if you
don't have MSVC installed.  If you are using any other hardware besides a
standard Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt-E, you should check the comment header
for some important notes.

  


-- john, KE5FX

  


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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather V3.10 release

[mike cook]

Le 21/06/2012 00:13, mike cook a écrit :

Le 20/06/2012 10:22, John Miles a écrit :

Another long-awaited announcement:

http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/readme.htm


Highlights of V3.10:


- No longer a beta!

- Added support for Nortel NTGS50A-series receivers

- Added support for Resolution-T and Resolution SMT receivers

Thanks John,
Question?  Under 3.10 with a bog standard Tbolt I have "Saved Pos BAD" 
flagged.  The position is

39.517°N, 76.794°W
Recognise it?  Flashy place near Baltimor.
Unfortunately I had uninstalled 3.0 beta prior to installing 3.10 so I 
couldn't immediately check with that , but running Tboltmon I see my 
correct position reported.

Any ideas?
Regards, Mike
Sorry about the self reply but I just noticed that there is also a 
discrepancy in the holdover value. Previous value 91s, 3.10 reports 128s!


snip the rest

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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather V3.10 release

[mike cook]

Le 21/06/2012 00:18, mike cook a écrit :



39.517°N, 76.794°W
Recognise it?  Flashy place near Baltimor.
Oops I  just looked at the installed properties and see they point 
to a LH server. Aargh!


All OK now.

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Re: [time-nuts] NTPns syslog configuration

[mike cook]

Le 28/06/2012 00:28, Stijn Nestra a écrit :

Hello,

I have build a NTP server using the Soekris and M12 concept and I am 
using a freebsd image that Jason has made.
The problem is that I am a total fbsd noob and that I want the 
oncore_msg logged on a syslog server. I have tried several things and 
I get the messages only on my console. 
I have not done this and us a stock ntp for my servers , but if I 
understand your question, the oncore_msg that you are refering to are 
those sent by the receiver. However they will be in motorola binary 
format!!! Not much use in a syslog and some hex values will correspond 
to control characters which could break something. However you can 
capture them using the SHMEM facility of the oncore driver (if it is 
still available) and with a small  program read that data/format it and 
push it to the console. See the doc for setting up and using the the 
SMEM interface. 



 You could try the ntp group at < 
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.protocols.time.ntp> where the gurus 
hang out.


Can anyone tell me how to configure syslog and NTPns so I can get 
ntpns messages to my syslog server?


btw my syslog server is working, I get the kernel messages during boot.

Sincerely,

Stijn Nestra

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Re: [time-nuts] So, how did you spend your leapsecond?

[mike cook]

Quote from an unidentified admin:

Posted: Yesterday 10:35:14 PM
im rebooting a couple hundred linux servers right now, it caught us by 
surprise and boofed our production environment tonight. i walk in from a 
road trip across texas (carbine class) and in my door my phone starts 
ringing. well feck.


Grist to the mill of the anti LS lobby.  I expect someone will publish 
estimates of total cost shortly.






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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Mini-T end of life

[mike cook]

Le 19/07/2012 09:15, saidj...@aol.com a écrit :

  Mini-T is end of life
How about onboard DDS with sine/square choice( and own SMA out if space 
avalable)? Also programmable PPS offsets if not already available.


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Re: [time-nuts] GLONASS receiver

[mike cook]

Le 06/08/2012 00:01, Bob Camp a écrit :

Hi

The part at the link does not appear to have a holdover specification. You 
probably would do better with a TBolt off of eBay.

Agreed.
 I took a look at the Axtal AXIOM40 data sheet and they are quoting 200 
ppb per YEAR aging.. That's not bad; so if the device is only affected 
by that in holdover, it's only 200ns slow out at the end of a year ... I 
doubt that my T-Bolt could do as well. So as to providing a stable 
frequency it looks fine. HOWEVER that particular device has1PPS on the 
DCD line FROM the GPS receiver and not disciplined by the OCXO, so the 
advantage is lost and the PPS will drift at the receivers onboard 
crystal aging rate while not getting updates from GPS.  So it's not a 
good choice. Better to get a device with PPS disciplined directly by the 
main oscillator and aligned to UTC when  the signal is available as in a 
T-Bolt.


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Re: [time-nuts] web presentation of data

[mike cook]

Le 07/08/2012 17:56, Chris Albertson a écrit :

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:


On 8/6/12 10:43 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:


On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:

  what would be useful is to have some sort of "plotting engine" that is a

canned webpage (or stored locally on the user/client computer) that can
ingest fairly raw data from a URL..


So the web server is inside an Arduino?  Yes can't run GNUplot there.   Why
not have the Arduino produce either Postscript or PDF?  It is very easy to
draw a graph in Postscript.
  
Also everyone already has the display engine.  PDF is very much like
Postscript. but I think Postscrip in "EPS" form is easy to create inside an
Arduino,

One good reason for doing as little as possible in a micro-controller is 
that they are often used to collect raw  data with as little latency as 
possible. Doing web serving on a single slowish core in that case is not 
a good idea. I have a bunch of Soekris doing data collection and if I 
start to do compute intensive tasks on one, it skews the timing, so I 
use a completely independent one to do the web serving, with the data 
collectors providing access to data via nfs which does not seen to 
impact the timing much even though I can't guarantee that requests are 
satisfied in otherwise idle time . I like the idea of  client side 
graphing. It probably exists already somewhere though I haven't checked 
details - RGraph pops up with google.


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Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)

[mike cook]

Le 08/08/2012 11:00, Rex a écrit :

Hal,

I
If you go to: http://validator.w3.org and enter your link into the 
address field 
(http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.svg) 
then click Check, you will get a message that sort of explains the 
situation, except I still don't know how to get the server configured 
for for svg file => 'Content-Type: image/svg+xml'.


So it seems most browsers are now ready for SVG, but many servers are 
not. Maybe someone else can give us more details on what change might 
be required. In the mean time it looks like I won't be using any SVG 
on my pages either.
I don't use svg either, but the version of apache I have installed 
(2.2.19) does have svg listed in the mime types config  file.

/usr/local/etc/apache22/mime.types
...
# image/prs.pti
image/svg+xml   svg svgz
# image/t38
...
If your server is apache I think that uncommenting the line and 
restarting httpd should be enough. If you have a propriety server you 
may need to update something else.


Firefox accessing my server does display the graph correctly.





-Rex , et la caravane passe.


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Re: [time-nuts] oscillators

[mike cook]

nippedLe 30/08/2012 06:12, Neville Michie a écrit :

Does anyone know about what technology is used in Swiss watches to get much 
better performance from
their xtals than you might expect?
I assumed that they had look up lists to insert extra counts to compensate for 
ambient variations,
but I have never heard any details.
cheers,
Neville Michie


check out 




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Re: [time-nuts] Re; New Wrist watch

[mike cook]

As with the original chronometers, it is not the drift that is 
important, but the stability of the drift. If you know that then getting 
the correct time is simple arithmetic. That said, if you want to get low 
drift numbers, a number of movements have been and are available to 
improve on the average Swatch.
Have a look at < 
http://issuu.com/watchlords.com/docs/thermocompensation-methods_20110528_055911> 
for a document by Bruce Reding which catalogues many.
I have a couple that are well within spec at <2s per year, the A660 from 
Citizen and the 9F from Seiko.


Le 10/09/2012 16:04, David McGaw a écrit :
It was mentioned a while back that there are watches that are 
temperature compensated.  I would be interested in knowing which are.  
The self-setting ones are nice and I have one, but I am often in 
places that are not in range the transmitter (Greenland, Antarctica 
for instance) and I would like it not to drift.


Thanks,

David


On 9/10/12 9:57 AM, David McGaw wrote:
He's making a joke - If you are traveling across time zones, why not 
just set it to UTC and be done with it?  :-)


David


On 9/10/12 7:57 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

Precision is precision, whatever time scale you use. UTC, CET, TAI, use
what you want but stability and accuracy is the must.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz 
wrote:



Bob;

Being this is Time-Nuts and all, shouldn't you be using UTC anyway? ;)

Rich
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801 Replacement GPS Receiver Card

[mike cook]

Le 16/09/2012 15:38, Hui Zhang a écrit :

I just bought a second-hand Z3801A, it also had a error message when self test 
- GPS Rcv error, and I saw a red LED on main board on. I want test it alone but 
I don't know GPS board's pin define, can someone tell me? Thanks.




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Re: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO

[mike cook]

Le 24 nov. 2012 à 09:26, Joseph Gray a écrit :

> Can anyone recommend an inexpensive 12.8 MHz OCXO that outputs a sine
> wave? I've looked online, but the only ones I find costs hundreds of
> dollars. Anything 0.25 ppm or better is fine. A Vcc of 5-13.8 VDC
> preferred.
> 
An uncommon OCXO freq.  If it is for hobby use, I would suggest using a more 
common quality reference and locking a cheap 12.8 vcxo / vctcxo to it with a 
pll.
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] I thought GPS repeated every 12 hours (-2 minutes)

[Mike Cook]

> Le 25 mai 2016 à 16:59, David  a écrit :
> 
> I was designed as a transmitter hunting antenna sacrificing size and
> gain for minimum side lobes. 

I’ve got to see your selfie.  


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Year of Manufacture

[Mike Cook]

> Le 27 mai 2016 à 22:10, Bob Camp  a écrit :
> 
> Hi
> 
> Best guess is that the 0331 at the start is the date code. 31st week of 2003 
> would
> be it’s manufacture date.
> 
> Bob
> 

Bob’s guess fits with mine too. All between 0321 and 0345

>> On May 27, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Richard Webb  wrote:
>> 
>> New to this list, this week - having lusted after a 56' since seeing Gerry
>> Sweeney's series of videos on this unit and building up a distribution amp,
>> and then finally getting one.
>> 
>> I was interested in knowing how old my unit is, is there a way of decoding
>> the serial number to give a date code? - I have 0331-64239.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Richard.
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George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox Neo-6M time error.

[Mike Cook]

> Le 1 juin 2016 à 03:20, Mark Sims  a écrit :
> 
> I had two machines running Lady Heather with the singing chime clock mode 
> enabled (that plays a chant from the Missa Assumpta on the quarter hours).   
> 
> One machine was connected to a Ublox Neo-6M receiver and another to a Z3801A. 
>   I noticed that the two machines sang their jaunty monk tunes offset by 
> around one second.  Since a man with two singing GPS clocks never knows what 
> time it is,  I replaced the Z3801A with a Jupiter-T and the two clocks were 
> still out of sync.   Finally I tried  Motorola M12+ and UT receivers and the 
> same thing happened.  It looks like the Ublox time is ahead by a second 
> compared to all the other receivers.   I then specified a -1 second 
> "rollover" correction to the Ublox machine and the two clocks sang in perfect 
> harmony.   Has anybody noticed such behavior with other receivers?
> 
> BTW,  note that the Ublox binary time message has a "fractional nanoseconds 
> of the seconds field" (+/- 500,000 nanoseconds) correction that must be 
> applied to the hrs:min:secs values (which I am doing).  The fractional time 
> offset forms a sawtooth with around a 120 second period.  Attached is a 
> GIF... white is the nanosecond fractional time offset.  Magenta is the 
> receiver estimate of its time error (both in nanoseconds).  The Trimble 
> Resolution-T receivers report a similar "local clock bias" value, but they 
> don't seem to document what it actually is…

The manual states that all protocol messages are sent after the 1PPS time 
pulse. But it looks like the nav time message is an exception.
> 

I dumped the default data stream (just NMEA) with u-center. The first NMEA 
message being a GPRMC and the last being GPGGL.
>From your post I figured that you were referring to the NAV-TIMEGPS message so 
>I configured that in. The message showed up between the last NMEA message for 
>the second and the GPRMC at the top of the next second.

 15:42:31    24 47 50 52 4D 43 2C 31 35 34 32 33 31 2E 30 30  
$GPRMC,154231.00
  0010  2C 41 2C 34 38 34 37 2E 33 35 31 39 30 2C 4E 2C  
,A,4847.35190,N,
  0020  30 30 32 31 36 2E 33 30 34 31 38 2C 45 2C 30 2E  
00216.30418,E,0.
  0030  30 39 30 2C 2C 30 31 30 36 31 36 2C 2C 2C 41 2A  
090,,010616,,,A*
  0040  37 33 0D 0A  73
15:42:31    24 47 50 56 54 47 2C 2C 54 2C 2C 4D 2C 30 2E 30  
$GPVTG,,T,,M,0.0
  0010  39 30 2C 4E 2C 30 2E 31 36 36 2C 4B 2C 41 2A 32  
90,N,0.166,K,A*2
  0020  42 0D 0A B
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 47 41 2C 31 35 34 32 33 31 2E 30 30  
$GPGGA,154231.00
  0010  2C 34 38 34 37 2E 33 35 31 39 30 2C 4E 2C 30 30  
,4847.35190,N,00
  0020  32 31 36 2E 33 30 34 31 38 2C 45 2C 31 2C 30 39  
216.30418,E,1,09
  0030  2C 30 2E 39 31 2C 31 38 39 2E 33 2C 4D 2C 34 36  
,0.91,189.3,M,46
  0040  2E 32 2C 4D 2C 2C 2A 35 34 0D 0A .2,M,,*54
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 53 41 2C 41 2C 33 2C 32 36 2C 32 31  
$GPGSA,A,3,26,21
  0010  2C 30 35 2C 32 37 2C 31 36 2C 32 39 2C 32 35 2C  
,05,27,16,29,25,
  0020  33 31 2C 32 30 2C 2C 2C 2C 31 2E 36 34 2C 30 2E  
31,201.64,0.
  0030  39 31 2C 31 2E 33 36 2A 30 31 0D 0A  91,1.36*01
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 53 56 2C 34 2C 31 2C 31 33 2C 30 34  
$GPGSV,4,1,13,04
  0010  2C 38 35 2C 32 39 39 2C 33 33 2C 30 35 2C 31 35  
,85,299,33,05,15
  0020  2C 30 34 36 2C 33 38 2C 30 39 2C 30 34 2C 33 32  
,046,38,09,04,32
  0030  39 2C 2C 31 36 2C 33 35 2C 33 30 32 2C 33 37 2A  
9,,16,35,302,37*
  0040  37 43 0D 0A  7C
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 53 56 2C 34 2C 32 2C 31 33 2C 31 38  
$GPGSV,4,2,13,18
  0010  2C 30 36 2C 31 34 35 2C 31 34 2C 32 30 2C 32 33  
,06,145,14,20,23
  0020  2C 30 39 33 2C 31 37 2C 32 31 2C 36 33 2C 31 35  
,093,17,21,63,15
  0030  34 2C 32 30 2C 32 33 2C 30 34 2C 33 30 33 2C 2A  
4,20,23,04,303,*
  0040  37 39 0D 0A  79
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 53 56 2C 34 2C 33 2C 31 33 2C 32 35  
$GPGSV,4,3,13,25
  0010  2C 31 35 2C 31 32 34 2C 31 35 2C 32 36 2C 36 36  
,15,124,15,26,66
  0020  2C 32 39 37 2C 34 34 2C 32 37 2C 31 32 2C 32 35  
,297,44,27,12,25
  0030  38 2C 31 34 2C 32 39 2C 33 37 2C 30 36 37 2C 33  
8,14,29,37,067,3
  0040  39 2A 37 43 0D 0A9*7C
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 53 56 2C 34 2C 34 2C 31 33 2C 33 31  
$GPGSV,4,4,13,31
  0010  2C 33 39 2C 32 30 38 2C 32 30 2A 34 42 0D 0A ,39,208,20*4B
15:42:31    24 47 50 47 4C 4C 2C 34 38 34 37 2E 33 35 31 39  
$GPGLL,4847.3519
  0010  30 2C 4E 2C 30 30 32 31 36 2E 33 30 34 31 38 2C  
0,N,00216.30418,
  0020  45 2C 31 35 34 32 33 31 2E 30 30 2C 41 2C 41 2A  
E,154231.00,A,A*
  0030  36 33 0D 0A

Re: [time-nuts] Ublox Neo-6M time error.

[Mike Cook]

Hi Mark,

> Le 2 juin 2016 à 10:28, Mark Sims  a écrit :
> 
> The Ublox receivers do not have a message that outputs GPS time directly.  
> It's easiest to take the UTC time message and subtract the leapsecond offset 
> to get GPS time.   The itow value in the NAV_TIMEGPS message is milliseconds 
> past midnight of the start of the GPS week... probably not something you want 
> to be doing calculations from.  I use the TIMEUTC message.  I only use the 
> leapsecond offset from TIMEGPS.
> 

 Ok makes sense. BTW my calculations on other TIMEGPS messages using iTOW value 
confirm the strange finding I saw before:

09:02:08    B5 62 01 20 10 00 D0 0C 8A 16 5A 17 FD FF 6B 07  
  0010  11 07 0F 00 00 00 B3 4E  

Header  B5 62
ID  01 20
length  00 10   16
iTOW16 8A 0C D0 378146000 ms
fTOWFF FD 17 5A -ve some value
week07 6B   1:875
LeapS   11  17
flags   07  all bits valid
iAcc00 00 00 0F
CK_AB3
CK_B4E

Converting iTOW  : the above hex byte values have been changed to big endian .

4days 9h 2m 26s   from start of GPS week , that is Sunday midnight.
The seconds value make no sense in standard GPS time from the SV but as I 
saw before
can be MADE to make sense if you subtract current leap seconds.
 
4d 9h 2m 09s which is the NEXT second . 

09:02:09    24 47 50 52 4D 43 2C 30 39 30 32 30 39 2E 30 30  
$GPRMC,090209.00
  0010  2C 41 2C 34 38 34 37 2E 33 34 35 37 34 2C 4E 2C  
,A,4847.34574,N,
  0020  30 30 32 31 36 2E 32 39 37 38 32 2C 45 2C 30 2E  
00216.29782,E,0.
  0030  30 35 38 2C 2C 30 32 30 36 31 36 2C 2C 2C 41 2A  
058,,020616,,,A*
  0040  37 31 0D 0A  71

> It looks like Ublox is sending the time message AFTER the 1PPS pulse ("at the 
> beep, the time was...") , and just about everybody else sends it before the 
> pulse ("at the beep, the time is ...") ... Bastards!  I wonder about the 
> thought (or lack of it) process that decided that was the way to do it.  And 
> don't get me started on the idiot receivers that send the sawtooth correction 
> message after the fact...
> --
> Despite re-checking I am still doubtful that my sums are right. I’ll do a few 
> more packets.  Is this what you are seeing Mark?  
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock Block Unavaliable - Alternative Solutions ?

[Mike Cook]

As you only want one frequency you could use the ICS525 which I think the clock 
block uses and hardwire the relevant select pins. 
There is a calculator (windows only) available on the IDT site 

which gives input pin settings. 24MHz can be got from 10MHz input with 0ppm 
error.
Probably best to set it up on a cape. 

Hope that helps. 

> Le 3 juin 2016 à 16:15, Iain Young  a écrit :
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I noticed that the TAPR site now lists the Clock-Block as unavaliable.
> 
> This is a shame as I was going to experiment with driving some beaglebones
> with a 24MHz clock from one, multiplied up from a Rb/GPS/LORAN source this
> summer
> 
> Does anyone know of a similiar device avaliable elsewhere (built) ? Or
> are there plans for a clock block v2 ? 
> 
> I guess I can drive them at 10MHz directly, but it would have been great
> to push them at 24MHz, however using a HP Signal Generator locked to
> one of my references seems...overkill :)
> 
> 
> Iain
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[time-nuts] How to get unknown frequency quartz crystals oscillating

[Mike Cook]

Hi,

I have a number of crystals either in glass, bakelite, ceramic or metal 
housings that I would like to get resonating . They are of three basic types.
 Square, or rectangular flat   
 Round flat 
 Bar  square section
Sizes range from 2-10cm or more in the longest face.

Some have frequency markings. ranging from IKHz 5MHz. 
Others have none.
Some are of  Military origin, probably radios and as they have markings I can 
probably find a schematic from the radios to see how to proceed.  There may be 
dedicated testers still around. I am not so interested in this bunch at the 
moment. 
Others have no known origin so I have no idea what oscillator circuits were 
used with them. 
In terms of vintage, I would guess pre 1940  to late 50s 

I have built a little Pierce circuit an tried a few. Some of the later 1-5MHz 
crystals will oscillate but there are a lot of parasitic signals as well as the 
supposed fundamental. I cannot make any of the low frequency / big crystals to 
react.

So my question:
If you had a crystal with unknown frequency and drive requirements that you 
wanted to investigate. How would you go about it?

If I can get them going I will share the Adevs. I don’t have a spectrum 
analyser so I can’t do phase noise.

Regards

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Mystery hp Ovens For Sale

[Mike Cook]

> Le 4 juin 2016 à 06:59, Ian Stirling  a écrit :
> 
>  It looks like the quartz is in the sealed glass "valve", or "tube".
> 
>  I have removed a similar glass vacuum enclosed 100 kHz frequency
> marker generator from my Eddystone EA12 receiver that I bought from
> Tom Roberts, G3YTO (SK 1985), in September 1978. I don't use the EA12
> any more and I wonder what kind of timing device I can make from this
> beautiful slab of quartz, approximately 28 x 5 x 2 mm. I don't have a
> data sheet for it, but I can see which pins are connected to the quartz.
> In the receiver, it has a spring stabilized black metal cover that mates
> to the socket. I suspect that is so that the thirteen valves and their
> heaters create a thermal equilibrium and the black shroud lets the
> crystal bathe in it. I ran the EA12 24/7 from then until I bought and
> used an IC-735 in January 1987.

If you haven’t yet thrown out the EA12 you could try to trace the oscillator 
circuit into which it was plugged, recover the socket and duplicate the circuit 
with modern components. Once working you could add a divider circuit and 
include it in a led clock.  

I have been trying to get some old crystals  singing again using a Pierce 
circuit. Results are not brilliant. 
I could start some of the later 1-5MHz range , but had no luck with low 
frequency. I cannot get really clean output from even those that start so I am 
missing something. Some of the slabs are giants ( one marked 1292Hz +/- 10^-5) 
and I would love to get them started. Some of them are real works of art as 
well. 

I’ll post to a new thread with a req. for ideas.

> 
> It is a GEC Crystal Unit, 100 kHz, serial number 82690 and type JCF/193,
> "Made in England", and it looks like it means business.
> 
> Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
> --
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] How to get unknown frequency quartz crystals oscillating

[Mike Cook]

Thanks all for your advice, hints, tips and links. Lots to read , do and some 
hardware to check.  I don’t have a frequency generator so I’ll have to go 
another route. 

Oh. One last Q. Has anyone tried repairing the « spring » wire electric 
connections on large quartz plates. In one large unit I have they had corroded 
and dropped the plate, luckily no damage.  I have done one, but I have no Idea 
what the original wire composition was so have certainly induced some stray 
capacitance/resistance. It is possible that it was a filter rather than a 
frequency source as it was not in a vacuum. 

Have a good one.

> Le 4 juin 2016 à 18:49, Bernd Neubig  a écrit :
> 
> 
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> The Pierce logic-gate-biased-active oscillator is pretty reliable to start 
>> and will oscillate somewhere with most crystals from kHz to MHz.
>> As you found out, it will often come up on one of many overtones.
>> To reduce chance of coming at an overtone, a series resistor from logic gate 
>> output to the crystal is often enough. If not, a RC low-pass will cut down 
>> even further (although of course adding phase shift.)
> 
> This is certainly the easiest and fastest way for a go/no-go test and to find 
> the approximate resonance frequency. 
> In the attached circuit diagram make CX1 and CX2 about 10 pF and RGK several 
> MegOhms.
> The inverter gate should be preferably an unbuffered HCMOS or other fast 
> inverter.
> For crystals in the MHz range you can replace RV by a short, for kHz crystals 
> make it a few kOhms. If testing small watch crystals @ 32768 kHz or around, 
> RV should be 100 kOhm at least. RV reduces the crystal drive level (RF 
> current) to an acceptable level to avoid overloading or even damaging of the 
> crystal. For low frequency crystals the RV-CX2 lowpass also avoids start-up 
> at the overtone.
> It is recommended to add a second inverter gate at the output to isolate your 
> oscilloscope or counter input from the oscillator stage. Add some >330 ohm in 
> series to the output of the 2nd inverter, if you connect a coaxial cable. 
> Then terminate the coax at the oscilloscope or frequency counter end with 50 
> Ohms, so the square wave form will be roughly maintained.
> 
> In this circuit the crystal will not operate at its series resonance, but at 
> a load resonance with load capacitance of something between 8 pF and 10 pF 
> (depending on the inverter input and output capacitance plus the stray 
> capacitances of your test fixture).
> If you want to operate the oscillator at a (low) overtone, such as 3rd (or 
> maybe 5th), you must add a series combination of 10 nF plus an inductor in 
> parallel to CX2. The 10 nF is to avoid DC short-circuiting of the output. The 
> inductor together with CX2 must have a resonance frequency mid between 
> fundamental mode and 3rd overtone (not at one of them). So the tuned circuit 
> acts like a capacitor at the 3rd OT and is inductive at fundamental mode 
> (thus the phase condition for oscillation is not fulfilled at the fundamental 
> mode)
> Have fun
> 
> Bernd
> DK1AG 
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Re: [time-nuts] Divide by 3

[Mike Cook]

> Le 8 juin 2016 à 15:55, Nick Sayer via time-nuts  a écrit 
> :
> 
> I’m contemplating trying my GPS board with an FE-405B. That’s a different 
> kettle of fish, but at the end of that, if I’m successful, one of the goals 
> would be to be able to use it for the external reference of my 53220A. 
> Unfortunately, 15 MHz isn’t one of the options - only 1, 5 and 10.

I saw the same, which put me off trying to do the same. However I am not sure 
that your approach will work as the specs for the external clock indicate:

 - EXTernal  selects an external reference signal applied to the rear panel
Ext Ref In  connector. The signal must be:
•  1 MHz , 5 MHz, or 10 MHz
•  100 mVrms to 2.5 Vrms
•  sine wave

Your output is digital, no? It may function but I wouldn’t trust it.

It is a no brainer to get a sine from a square wave, BUT , I seriously doubt 
that the excellent ADEV can be maintained with all that flipping and flopping 
going on. I even doubt that it could be kept in a pure sine implementation. 

Mike


> 
> So I did some googling and found a divide-by-3 circuit using flip-flops, and 
> then designed a board for it:
> 
> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/jxXp7wYM
> 
> The circuit uses 3 D flip-flops and 3 NOR gates and has a 50% duty cycle 
> output that’s 1/3 the frequency of the input. The OSHPark project has a 
> pointer to the original blog post that has a schematic. The only difference 
> between their schematic and mine is that in theirs, the third flip-flop has 
> an inverted clock input. The third NOR gate inverts the clock to achieve that 
> in mine (also one flip-flop and one NOR gate are unused and have the inputs 
> tied high).
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] u-blox "naked" chips - anyone brave enough to try them?

[Mike Cook]

Certainly cheap…. BUT

On the ublox site there is a table indicating that the KT is a standard 
precision engine. On the same table, the UBX-M8030-KT-FT is required for timing:

< 
https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/GNSS-Chips_Linecard_%28UBX-13004716%29.pdf
 >
< 
https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/products/documents/UBX-M8030-KT-FT_ProductSummary_%28UBX-14001605%29.pdf
 >

So, they may be cheap, very cheap, but are they really what a TN would want?

Hope that helps.
Mike



> Le 15 juin 2016 à 01:38, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
> 
> Moin,
> 
> Some of you might know that the u-blox chips are available in small
> quantities and for quite cheap too. Just go to aliexpress or taobao
> and type in "UBX-G7020" or "UBX-M8030" and you will get plenty of
> results. My guess is, that these chips are leftovers from cellphone
> production that get sold off close at wholesale price (I've seen
> that with other chips as well). So it is likely that these are 
> actually genuine chips.
> 
> Now, the documentation for those chips is not that readily available.
> But fret not! Some of it can be found if you look hard enough. At least
> for the G7020. I think, this information should be enough for anyone
> who wants to build his own GPSDO with Trimble like oscillator control
> (ie that the reference oscillator of the GPS module is steered directly).
> 
> The UBX-M8030-KT, which would be a timing chip and thus for sure
> support the RAW data commandos, is unfortunately quite google proof.
> At least I couldn't find any documentation for those but the official
> public one provided by u-blox. I would guess, that the pin out is very
> similar if not the same, but without guarante.
> 
> (I know that least the UBX-M8030-KT datasheet UBX-13001634 is floating
> around, but So far i was not able to get hold of it, due to insufficient
> chinese language skills)
> 
> As for the UBX-G7020, you can find the following documents:
> 
> 
> UBX-G7020-KT/KA u-blox 7 GPS/GNSS chips Data Sheet GPS.G7-HW-12001
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ArdentHeavyIndustries/straightedge-gps-firmware/master/Datasheets/UBX-G7020-Kx_DataSheet_(GPS%20G7-HW-12001)_Confidential.pdf.pdf
> 
> u-blox 7 GPS/GNSS chips Hardware Integration Manual GPS.G7-HW-10003
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/GPS/MOD-GPS/resources/UBX-G7020_HardwareIntegrationManual_-GPS.G7-HW-10003-_Confidential.pdf
> 
> 
> So, if anyone would want to give those a try, let us know.
> I'm sure many here would be interested.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> Malek's Law:
>Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
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Re: [time-nuts] Cable length calibration

[Mike Cook]

> Le 29 juin 2016 à 22:18, Poul-Henning Kamp  a écrit :
> 
> 
> In message <20160629192850.19c29406...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal 
> Mu
> rray writes:
> 
>>> At one point they were looking into making a GPS time receiver where the
>>> cable length calibration would be built-in. 
>> 
>> How would you do that?
> 
> TDR ?
> 
> If it wasn't behind a choke, the inrush current to the antenna
> preamp power filtering capacitor could be measured, but the choke
> ruins that.
> 
> The trouble is how to do it without frying the antenna preamp...
> 
> 
> Seriously...
> 
> GPS antennas and receivers are cheap, I would just use two GPS antennas
> with a known difference in cable-length.
> 
Sounds simple, but even after a days reflection I don’t see how you 
find the complete path delay. You would get the cable delay (OPs concern) 
provided they were the same antenna/cable type combinations, but not delay 
induced by the antenna electronics.  From another post that delay seems to be 
non-negligable. I find it curious that antenna manafacturers don’t seem to give 
this parameter. I looked at some datasheets on Trimble and Leica sites but they 
don’t have it. 
As for me, I measure cable delay by injecting a 1PPS into it through a T and 
for the RG174 attached to the patch antennas, just sacrificed one by cutting 
the head off and measuring that. 

> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined Mars clock

[Mike Cook]

> Le 9 juil. 2016 à 17:33, Scott McGrath  a écrit :
> 
> The Venusian's are feeling left out ….

I guess it is possible as there is an agreed prime meridian even though we 
cannot see the central peak in the crater Ariadne in the visible spectrum.

> 
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
> 
>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 2:58 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> To appease our new (hopefully) benevolent Martian overlords,  Lady Heather 
>> can now work in Mars time...   and I have it running right now while 
>> connected to a Jupiter timing receiver.
>> 
>> -
>>> Hmm. I have a SC-01.. One could hook it up to a Arduino trivially.
>> And run it on Mars time.. 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined Mars clock

[Mike Cook]

Calculating the local planetary time is fine for solid objects with an accepted 
(or proposed) prime meridian , but I don’t think this is possible with gaseous 
objects where there is no fixed feature. 

> Le 9 juil. 2016 à 18:23, Mark Sims  a écrit :
> 
> Do you have any equations for calculating Jovian (or Pluto) time and date 
> from UTC / GPS / TAI time?   Lady Heather does not want to slight any of our 
> other potential planetary overlords (but could whip their bloated gaseous 
> asses in a fight)
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] Leap second to be introduced at midnight UTC December 31 this year

[Mike Cook]

As NTP comes up here quite a bit :

The IERS have recently issued a new Bulletin C  indicating that a Leap Second 
will be added at the end of December this year.
The Bulletin C can be seen at < 
https://hpiers.obspm.fr/iers/bul/bulc/bulletinc.dat >
The relevant NTP leap-seconds-list file can be downloaded with anonymous ftp 
from the pub directory at time.nist.gov. 
(The leap-seconds-list file is a symbolic link to the data file 
leap-seconds.3676924800 in the same directory. )


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Re: [time-nuts] Leap second to be introduced at midnight UTC December 31 this year

[Mike Cook]

> Le 20 juil. 2016 à 22:10, Gary E. Miller  a écrit :
> 
> Yo Martin!
> 
> On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:37:02 +0200
> Martin Burnicki  wrote:
> 
>> So when the GPS receiver always just *showed* information on the
>> current UTC data set then this is OK. However, the *time* it has
>> *output* should not have jumped back and forth by 1 second.
> 
> I have a report of a Venus8, with BeiDou, that jumped NMEA time by one
> second on the 19th.
> 
> The NMEA offset data is fun:
> 
>https://dan.drown.org/bbb/latest/remote-statistics.NMEA.png

possibly related the the issue reported back in january 2015.

"Back in January it was reported here that the Venus 8 timing modules from 
Skytraq as used in the LTE-Lite, had a firmware bug that was causing the leap 
second to be applied as soon as the warning was seen in the GPS stream. I had 
bought one from Navspark  and once I reported the issue they shipped me a 
replacement receiver as soon as the F/W update was available. I would have 
preferred the new F/W, but I got a free receiver as they did not want me to 
return the bugged one. "

> 
> But some other, different, models of Venus8 did not.
> 
> I'm trying to get more information.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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[time-nuts] Seiko watch "leap second enabled"

[Mike Cook]

While I was googling for reports of other misbehaving GPS chips, I discovered 
the existence of the worlds first leap second enabled wrist watch.
Seiko introduced the Astron models 8X53, 8X82, 7X52 which automatically check 
for a leap second on ……. 

«  Seiko Astron enters the leap second data receiving mode after the first GPS 
signal is received on or after June 1st and December 1st. »  (User Manual)

D’OH!…

Maybe one of Homer’s inventions.

If any of you have one, have you checked how it has reacted?


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Leap second to be introduced at midnight UTC December 31 this year

[Mike Cook]

> Le 21 juil. 2016 à 19:27, Tom Van Baak  a écrit :
> 
> Time to mention this again...
> 
> If we adopted the LSEM (Leap Second Every Month) model then none of this 
> would be a problem. The idea is not to decide *if* there will be leap second, 
> but to force every month to have a leap second. The IERS decision is then 
> what the *sign* of the leap second should be this month.
> 
 This is a non starter. Even if there was agreement by the time lords, 
implementation would need to wait about 2x the MTBF of tantalum capacitors, say 
50 years or so, so that the stuff that is running on our benches will have long 
been recycled.  I will bet that less than 10 percent of it has been verified to 
accept negative leaps.

  I am a rubbery seconds supporter myself. It is about time we realized that 
humans are not machines and like the idea of 86400 second days from here to the 
end of time. 
There is of course a need for precise SI time intervals and a time scale to go 
with, but that can be distributed alongside an 86400sec day UTC. The techno 
exists, we just need the will to say that we humans take precedence. UT1 rules.

I’ll jump down from my drum and share some data which I have not seen here 
before. 

As most of you will already be aware, one of the results of the never-ending 
arguments about what to do with leap seconds, was that the IERS agreed to make 
available electronically  UT1-UTC deltas with much greater precision than the 
GPS stream does (0.1 sec resolution). AFIK we don’t have that yet, but at the 
beginning of June 2015, Judah Levine at NIST announced that NIST would be 
distributing high resolution UT1 in NTP frames . 
See < http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm>.

As you can see from the document, the service was available to registered users 
with static IP addresses. My ISP only hands these out for $$$s so I registered 
with some of the cheaper VPN providers ones to test out the service over VPN 
links. Unfortunately there were such severe latency and jitter issues with all 
of those that I tried, that I abandoned my tests in August 2015. I also think I 
unfortunately pissed off Judah with my repeated requests for IP address 
registration as he stopped responding to mails. Sorry for that Judah if you are 
looking in.  

Anyway I forgot all about it until the other day when I was looking at the 
peerstat data of the server I was using for the tests and discovered that the 
UT1 server was alive and responding over my unregistered IP with half the 
latency and usec level jitter. Luckily I had left the address in place in my 
ntp.conf with noselect  option.
Here is the ntpq -pn data.
mike@cubieez2:~/NIST_UT1_server_data$ ntpq -pn
 remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
+192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u   61   64  3770.173   -0.014   0.024
 128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   41   64  377  130.670  -225.01   0.102

You will also note from the NIST document and the NIST time server address 
links, that the UT1 NTP service will not respond to unregistered requests.
NIST may or may not have opened the box deliberately. I don’t know, but if you 
wish to use the service please at least contact Judah before doing so. It would 
be a shame to have it going deaf. 

Anyway, here are the results from the data I collected.
I have graphed the UT1 server offsets reported by the NTP peerstats data over 
the last 20 days and also the observed UT1-UTC deltas from IERS Bulletin A and 
the predicted UT1-UTC deltas for the same period from Bulletin A.  



As you can see, there is a systematic offset from the observed values reported 
in Bulletin A but the served value appears to track the predictions rather than 
the observed values. The resolution is much better than the 0.1s available via 
GPS but as the UT1 time is constant over the 24h day, it is not good enough to 
make a rubbery seconds clock. We need some interpolation. 

The 13/14th of July something strange was going on. I was not monitoring this 
system at the time and have no idea what it was.  

> /tvb
> 
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[time-nuts] NIST UT1 NTP server results

[Mike Cook]

I have started a new thread for this just in case anyone wants to comment and 
added a link to the stats plot as the png got removed from the first post. 

This really has more to do with timescale distribution rather than leap seconds 
but the fact that NIST put together a UT1 NTP server in the first place is 
tightly connected to the leap second controversy. So I have also published this 
over at the leap second list and prefer that any follow up is done over there.

I am a rubbery seconds supporter myself. It is about time we realized that 
humans are not machines and like the idea of 86400 second days from here to the 
end of time. 
There is of course a need for precise SI time intervals and a time scale to go 
with, but that can be distributed alongside an 86400sec day UTC. The techno 
exists, we just need the will to say that we humans take precedence. UT1 rules.

I’ll jump down from my drum and share some data which I have not seen here 
before. 

As most of you will already be aware, one of the results of the never-ending 
arguments about what to do with leap seconds, was that the IERS agreed to make 
available electronically  UT1-UTC deltas with much greater precision than the 
GPS stream does (0.1 sec resolution). AFIK we don’t have that yet, but at the 
beginning of June 2015, Judah Levine at NIST announced that NIST would be 
distributing high resolution UT1 in NTP frames . 
See < http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm 
>.

As you can see from the document, the service was available to registered users 
with static IP addresses. My ISP only hands these out for $$$s so I registered 
with some of the cheaper VPN providers ones to test out the service over VPN 
links. Unfortunately there were such severe latency and jitter issues with all 
of those that I tried, that I abandoned my tests in August 2015. I also think I 
unfortunately pissed off Judah with my repeated requests for IP address 
registration as he stopped responding to mails. Sorry for that Judah if you are 
looking in.  

Anyway I forgot all about it until the other day when I was looking at the 
peerstat data of the server I was using for the tests and discovered that the 
UT1 server was alive and responding over my unregistered IP with half the 
latency and usec level jitter. Luckily I had left the address in place in my 
ntp.conf with noselect  option.
Here is the ntpq -pn data.
mike@cubieez2:~/NIST_UT1_server_data$ ntpq -pn
remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
+192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u   61   64  3770.173   -0.014   0.024
128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   41   64  377  130.670  -225.01   0.102

You will also note from the NIST document and the NIST time server address 
links, that the UT1 NTP service will not respond to unregistered requests.
NIST may or may not have opened the box deliberately. I don’t know, but if you 
wish to use the service please at least contact Judah before doing so. It would 
be a shame to have it going deaf. 

Anyway, here are the results from the data I collected.
I have graphed the UT1 server offsets reported by the NTP peerstats data over 
the last 20 days and also the observed UT1-UTC deltas from IERS Bulletin A and 
the predicted UT1-UTC deltas for the same period from Bulletin A.  

See it at < 
http://stratum1.ddns.net:8080/timenuts-data/peerstats17677_128.138.140.50.png > 

As you can see, there is a systematic offset from the observed values reported 
in Bulletin A but the served value appears to track the predictions rather than 
the observed values. The resolution is much better than the 0.1s available via 
GPS but as the UT1 time is constant over the 24h day, it is not good enough to 
make a rubbery seconds clock. We need some interpolation. 

The 13/14th of July something strange was going on. I was not monitoring this 
system at the time and have no idea what it was.  
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST UT1 NTP server results

[Mike Cook]

> Le 23 juil. 2016 à 00:23, John Hawkinson  a écrit :
> 
> I have to wonder if it's really such a great idea to have this
> as an open NTP server without huge red flags that it is not UTC.
> One could imagine it leading to big problems if some people started
> syncing to it without undersatnding that it was.

I think that it would get rejected as a falseticker in most circumstances. 
 Worth looking at. 

I have just started an NTP client with just that server as a source.. The GPS 
based source is configured noselect.

Sat Jul 23 01:00:27 CEST 2016
 remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
 192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u   15   16  3770.837   70.330  39.176
 128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   12   16  377  130.662  -153.05  35.809
Sat Jul 23 01:01:31 CEST 2016
 remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
 192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u7   16  3770.825  106.345  40.264
 128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   12   16  377  130.652  -121.03  35.812

The system clock offset is slowly converging on the UT1 server. 
 
more later.

> 
> Has there been thought to at least setting the reference ID to 'UT1'
> instead of 'NIST' (or maybe 'NUT1' since 'NIST-UT1' is too long?).
> 
I would prefer UT1
> 
> With respect to interpolation and soforth, it seems like a lot of NTP
> cares more about frequency than offset, and all this stepping presumably
> wreaks havoc with the frequency? Maybe I'm wrong though...
> 
> --jh...@mit.edu
>  John Hawkinson
> 
> Tom Van Baak  wrote on Fri, 22 Jul 2016
> at 15:14:26 -0700 in <60BA6696E49A4C4FA9F6B5792176F81A@pc52>:
> 
> 
>>>  The current algorithm on the server uses the UT1 offset from
>>> Circular A with no interpolation. The value changes at 0 UTC every day.
>>> I did not use any interpolation because the difference in the dUT1
>>> value  from one day to the next is on the order of 1-2 ms, and I
>>> considered that it was likely that the jitter and asymmetry of the
>>> network connection to a typical user would limit the accuracy to a
>>> larger value anyway so that interpolation would not actually improve
>>> anything. However, I will certainly consider changing this. It would not
>>> be a big deal to add interpolation if there were some good reason for
>>> doing so.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Judah Levine
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST UT1 NTP server results

[Mike Cook]

As I suspected NTP client handles the UT1 data ok if there is just that server 
configured.
The only issue is that the current UT1 stream has steps at 0h which NTP takes 
time to sync to if slewing is enabled.  About 2000s in fact. The step size is 
far less than the max offset allowed and so doesn’t provoke a step. 

 I don’t have too many data points but attach here a plot of the 0h transition 
last night. 
Note that the the x-axis has the seconds scaled as a percentage of the number 
of secs in a day as I couldn’t figure out how to do it otherwise.


 


Have a good weekend,
Mike


> Le 23 juil. 2016 à 01:21, Mike Cook  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> Le 23 juil. 2016 à 00:23, John Hawkinson  a écrit :
>> 
>> I have to wonder if it's really such a great idea to have this
>> as an open NTP server without huge red flags that it is not UTC.
>> One could imagine it leading to big problems if some people started
>> syncing to it without undersatnding that it was.
> 
> I think that it would get rejected as a falseticker in most circumstances. 
> Worth looking at. 
> 
> I have just started an NTP client with just that server as a source.. The GPS 
> based source is configured noselect.
> 
> Sat Jul 23 01:00:27 CEST 2016
> remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
> ==
> 192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u   15   16  3770.837   70.330  39.176
> 128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   12   16  377  130.662  -153.05  35.809
> Sat Jul 23 01:01:31 CEST 2016
> remote   refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
> ==
> 192.168.1.23.GPS.1 u7   16  3770.825  106.345  40.264
> 128.138.140.50  .NIST.   1 u   12   16  377  130.652  -121.03  35.812
> 
> The system clock offset is slowly converging on the UT1 server. 
> 
> more later.
> 
>> 
>> Has there been thought to at least setting the reference ID to 'UT1'
>> instead of 'NIST' (or maybe 'NUT1' since 'NIST-UT1' is too long?).
>> 
> I would prefer UT1
>> 
>> With respect to interpolation and soforth, it seems like a lot of NTP
>> cares more about frequency than offset, and all this stepping presumably
>> wreaks havoc with the frequency? Maybe I'm wrong though...
>> 
>> --jh...@mit.edu
>> John Hawkinson
>> 
>> Tom Van Baak  wrote on Fri, 22 Jul 2016
>> at 15:14:26 -0700 in <60BA6696E49A4C4FA9F6B5792176F81A@pc52>:
>> 
>> 
>>>> The current algorithm on the server uses the UT1 offset from
>>>> Circular A with no interpolation. The value changes at 0 UTC every day.
>>>> I did not use any interpolation because the difference in the dUT1
>>>> value  from one day to the next is on the order of 1-2 ms, and I
>>>> considered that it was likely that the jitter and asymmetry of the
>>>> network connection to a typical user would limit the accuracy to a
>>>> larger value anyway so that interpolation would not actually improve
>>>> anything. However, I will certainly consider changing this. It would not
>>>> be a big deal to add interpolation if there were some good reason for
>>>> doing so.
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> 
>>>> Judah Levine
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> 
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
> have not got it. »
> George Bernard Shaw
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST UT1 NTP server results

[Mike Cook]

> Le 23 juil. 2016 à 21:56, Tom Van Baak  a écrit :
> 
> To further clarify my question about which UTx timescale to use with NTP, or 
> if or how to interpolate the values I've attached two plots from IERS for the 
> past 60 days.
> 
> BTW, notice last week we had another rare moment -- where the Earth had a 
> near perfect 86400.0 second day!
> 
> My question is, if someone were to compare a NTP/UTC system and a NTP/UT1 
> system would you want the daily / weekly / monthly phase difference plot to 
> look exactly like these IERS plots? Or do you want annual smoothing that 
> flattens all the wonderful wiggles and wandering of the Earth's actual spin.

Interesting plots. A couple of points.
1. These look like the data points are taken at 0h and without intermediary 
measurements as the data points are connected by straight line segments. If we 
don’t know what the intermediary data points are, the plots, to my mind, should 
be presented « with steps ».
2. It is not beyond the abilities of IERS to determine these intermediary data 
points, and I expect that they already do so, or for them to disseminate them 
in real time.. If that were the case then any self respecting UT1 server would 
be able to reproduce the phase differences exactly. That is what I personally 
would like, but would perfectly happy in the meantime with interpolated data 
points. Steps aren’t good enough for reasons I previously outlined.  

> 
> In other words, are the proponents of using UT for computer timekeeping 
> off-grid anti-atomic natural-rotation mother-earth types? Or is using UT just 
> a way to smooth out leap seconds over an entire couple of years instead of 
> smearing them over part of day, like what Google does.
> 
  I suppose that the answer to that depends on the objective of having a 
readily available accurate UT1 timescale realization. It has an intrinsic value 
unrelated to leap seconds so we should have it. It’s dissemination over 
GPS/radio would also allow the possibility of having a civil timescale without 
leap seconds where there would not be ‘rare moments’ of 86400 second days, but 
every day could have exactly 86400 seconds. 

I don’t think that proponents of having UT for a civil time scale have the 
characteristics that you attribute to them. Get out of bed the wrong side?

> Thanks,
> /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] Venus838LPx-T preliminary testing

[Mike Cook]

> Le 9 août 2016 à 19:15, Mark Sims  a écrit :
> 
> Just checked mine... it's an 822A.  They sell it as an '838...  bastards...  
> I just ordered one of yours.  My RS-232 GPS breakout board already has a 
> connector with Adafruit pinouts on it, so makes life easy.
> 

To be fair to Navspark, the publicity says «  NS-T is functionally equivalent 
to Venus838LPx-T but in NavSpark form factor. » It does not say that it uses 
that chip.
My module keeps to the 6ns jitter on 1PPS as advertised.
 
> 
> ---
> 
> 
>> If you're talking about the NS-T, the picture on their store suggests it may 
>> not be the exact same module. Their picture shows a Venus822A.
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS10

[Mike Cook]

> Le 11 août 2016 à 12:15, Martyn Smith  a écrit :
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have a strange fault on a PRS10.  Wondered if anyone had seen it.
> 
> I am running a PRS10 and at the same time monitoring its FC (the frequency 
> control value) and Status byte data values.
> 
> So normally, the Status shows are all zeros, except 2nd from last is a 1, 
> showing the unit is not receiving any 1 pps signals.
> 
> What happens is the FC value suddenly jumps from its current setting (-150 
> for example) to zero, for no apparent reason.  

if -150 is really what you saw, then it is out of bounds as the two values 
returned by fc? are both +ve.
if they go to zero, check the eeprom values
fc!?
58,5485,1534,1434  for example
If they are reasonable then possible the eeprom is not being read correctly 
after reset. 

> 
> Then a short while later, the Rubidium's status bytles go crazy, mostly to FF.

This indicates a microprocessor reset .  After a power cycle you can see:
st? 
255,255,255,243,162,255  ie most  FF
when you read again you get the current values
st?
0,0,0,0,130,0 for example
then if you reset the microprocessor
RS 1
PRS_10
st?
255,255,255,243,162,255  back to the initial state 
st?
0,0,0,0,130,0

So it looks like you are getting resets. Possibly from brown outs. Maybe a low 
power condition at reset prevents eprom data being read correctly.

Are the affected RBs on the same power supplies? 


> 
> Then the rubidium goes back to the previous correct state (all zeros) but the 
> FC value is now zero.
> 
> If you do connect a 1 pps, you get the same fault.
> 
> The confusing thing is I've suddenly seen this on 3 or 4 different 
> rubidium's.  Some brand new, some five years old. 
> 
> Obviously suspect the power supply, but it doesn't seem to be that.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Martyn 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?

[Mike Cook]

> Le 2 sept. 2016 à 08:29, Dr. David Kirkby  a écrit :
> 
> At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay 
> As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on 
> around 2-4 hours per week. 
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to 
> run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct? 
> 
> Someone installed "Dimension 4" 
> 
> http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/

Using inbuilt server lists is not too good an idea .

> 
> As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I 
> believe is not a good idea.  However,  given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours 
> per week,  maybe no ntp client will work well,  but I would have thought 
> using multiple servers being better than one. 
> 

 I see no reason not to run a normal NTP client such as that of Meinberg. You 
can configure the daemon to allow a large step at start up and as many known 
good servers to access as you want (try the pool also ). You will have a 
reasonably good time available in a few minutes that can be monitored with 
Meinberg’s monitor app. If the windows PC has CPU power saving options, have 
them disabled.  

> I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
> 
> Dave.
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[time-nuts] Lady Heather's latest bells and whistles

[Mike Cook]

Hi Mark.

> Le 14 sept. 2016 à 03:51, Mark Sims  a écrit :
> 
> Okee dokeee...  here it is.   Not much difference.   The initial step is 
> smaller,  but it still spikes.  After that things are pretty much the same.   
> After it cool down,  I'm doing another run with the initial voltage set to 
> the peak of the spike.
> 
> One slight difference was with the new initial voltage setting (closer to the 
> current 10. MHz operating point),  it appeared to acquire satellites 
> a few seconds faster (but that could just be luck of the draw).  Setting the 
> initial voltage to something far off of optimum would be interesting... I 
> seem to remember it taking several minutes to acquire.
> 
> (Gratuitous astro feature plug...   Lady Heather can show moon 
> rise/transit/set/age times in addition to the sun times)
> 

I just upgraded from 3.0 beta and was hoping to get these additions from your 
download page, but the V4.00 version doesn’t appear to have them. I see from 
your screen shots that you are up to V4.08. Is this available to the nuts 
public? Another Q. I see that with 4.0 I see « LEAP: PENDING! «  whereas on 
your V4.08 screen shot I see the countdown. Where does LH get this info from?

Thx,
Mike
> --
> 
>> I would be very interested to see the result of another dead cold start 
> of this same Tbolt, with INIT set to 0.518v.  Of course, the time at 
> which the second satellite is acquired (hence, the temperature of the 
> crystal when discipline begins, and thus, the exact DAC voltage required 
> for a stepless transition, will be a bit different from one start to the 
> next, so it won't be perfect.  But it will be a hell of a lot better 
> than starting from 0.499v).
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Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

[Mike Cook]

Given the number of replies to the OP, most pointed but others drifting OT, it 
is remarkable that there has been no comment or feedback from Larry. He has 
slung his bottle and gone away it seems.  


> Le 5 oct. 2016 à 23:58, Bob Camp  a écrit :
> 
> Hi
> 
> Given that this is for intermittent EME use, it’s not a system that has uber
> reliability as a requirement. Once you get the antenna up in a reasonable 
> location
> a GPS is going to be pretty stable and reliable. If you have an EME array 
> running, adding a GPS antenna to it probably not a big deal. 
> 
> If it *is* a big deal, run a GPSDO and then it’s no longer a problem. The KS
> boxes still seem to be out there for < $100 ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2016, at 2:32 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> Yo Bob!
>> 
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 07:14:30 -0400
>> Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>>> If you buy a GPS receiver and get it set up for timing …. just use
>>> it. Then there is no need for NTP at all….
>> 
>> Assuming your GPS never farts and always has a good lock.  A pretty
>> good assumption, but not a perfect one.
>> 
>> RGDS
>> GARY
>> ---
>> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>>  g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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Re: [time-nuts] PC clock generator without 14.318MHz

[Mike Cook]

> Le 18 oct. 2016 à 16:53, Vladimir Smotlacha  a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have operated own NTP servers with stable system clock for many years. The 
> principle is quite simple - I replaced 14.318 MHz quartz with OCXO based 
> circuit. Now I have to build few more servers with modern mini-ITX 
> motherboards, however on many of them (e.g. from ASUS) I can’t find any 
> 14.317 MHz quartz.  Such frequency is a relic of original PC design and I 
> wonder if it is used any other basic frequency in recent clock generators?

The 14.317MHz xtal was connected to the south bridge controller chip, but for 
recent CPUs this has gone away as has northbridge and the system clock has been 
integrated into the PCH (Platform Controller Hub) chip according to Wikipedia, 
so I suspect that if you find the clock feeding that , then you could stabilize 
it in that same way.  

> 
> thanks,
>   Vladimir
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Re: [time-nuts] leontp offset

[Mike Cook]

> Le 20 oct. 2016 à 22:06, Hal Murray  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> full disclosure: there were a couple of outlier external clocks I threw out,
>> one with a 38 ms offset and the other with a 112 ms offset).
> 
> That's not uncommon.  It happens more often when the server is farther away 
> and there are more opportunities for strange network routing.
> 
> The NIST servers in Gaithersburg MD (near Washington DC) have been off by 30 
> ms for a while.  There was a discussion on some list several months back.  I 
> forget which one.

Yes though I couldn’t find that thread. time-a.nist.gov appears to me also as 
30+ms offset.
 129.6.15.28 .ACTS.   1 u5   16   77  151.600   33.212   0.161
I am also seeing systematic large offsets from another NIST server reported by 
NTP on clients with GPS PPS input.
 128.138.140.44  .NIST.   1 u6   16  377  126.938   -2.246   0.074
I had been monitoring the Nut1 UT1 time server in Boulder and was surprised 
when I detected a >2 ms difference between that reference and the NIST bulletin 
B UT1-UTC deltas.
Dr Judah Levine , who is providing the service, suggested that I monitor 
128.138.140.44 , a UTC server and which is in the same server room and on the 
same net as Nut1 ( 128.138.140.50 ) and I discovered this systematic and 
remarkably stable offset ( 5.28 x 10^-6 ) and which explains the difference. 
The unfortunate part is that the systematic offset that I see cannot be removed 
by any NTP « fudge » factor and is about  the same magnitude as a days UT1-UTC 
difference as reported by Bulletin B. A real PITA. 

I cannot think of any reason other than asymmetric path delay that could cause 
this, but the 33ms offset for the Gaithersburg server is huge. 

« The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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[time-nuts] disappearance of NIST UT1 time service

[Mike Cook]

Hi,

  Does anyone know what happened to the NIST UT1 time service managed by Dr. 
Judah Levine?

I lost contact with the server ut1-time.colorado.edu on the 24th this month at 
20:15 UTC and there has been no response to NTP requests  since. 
I mailed Judah to find out what happened but have not as yet got anything back. 

Regards,
Mike

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Software availability for Trimble module boxed with two serial ports

[Mike Cook]

> Le 3 nov. 2016 à 16:41, Giuseppe Marullo  a écrit :
> 
>> Have you tried the stock Thunderbolt?
> 
> Not yet,
> 
> package is coming from China, like twenty days+ waiting before getting it.
> 
> Supposing the box will only make the serial port(s) available, where I could 
> find the software for the "stock" Trimble module it has inside? AFAIK it is 
> different from Thunderbolt but really I don't have a clue if common software 
> do exist for the two.

One of the photos suggest he is using Trimble Virtual Time Studio which is(was) 
available from the  Trimble site.

> 
> TIA.
> 
> Giuseppe Marullo
> 
> IW2JWW - JN45RQ
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Software availability for Trimble module boxed with two serial ports

[Mike Cook]

I have Version 2.01.0 - appears tp be a beta from 2013. I don’t know if it’s 
the best though.


> Le 4 nov. 2016 à 02:56, Giuseppe Marullo  a écrit :
> 
> Mike,
> 
> thank you.
> 
> Found several versions on the net, which one is the "best" version to try?
> 
> TIA.
> 
> Giuseppe Marullo
> 
> IW2JWW - JN45RQ
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] A (slightly) different apu2 question

[Mike Cook]

Sorry if this is a dup. I had accidentally left the « SPAM » prefix on my first 
reply.

> Le 17 nov. 2016 à 00:24, Jay Grizzard  a écrit :
> 
> So there's been a lot of discussion going around on how to do GPS foo on 
> pcengines.ch's apu2 hardware, but there's one question I haven't seen 
> discussed ... which I'm now going to discuss. Or at least ask about.
> 
> I can't find a public datasheet for the actual processor in these (a AMD 
> GX-412TC SOC), but looking at datasheets for similar AMD chips, this SOC 
> seems to use a single 48MHz external crystal from which all the other system 
> clocks are derived (save for the 32.768kHz RTC).

The principle should be applicable…. BUT you had better look closely at the 
schematics. There are some very low voltages in there.

> On the apu2, this crystal is easily accessible (at least as easy as anything 
> SMD is). Can anyone think of a reason that it wouldn't be feasible to replace 
> this crystal with an external reference, à la the widely known clockblock + 
> Soekris net4501 hack (but with 64x the RAM)? I figure the higher frequency 
> might make it a bit trickier to get the signal to the board intact, but is 
> there any other good reason this wouldn't work?
> 
> The CPU itself is four cores (no hyperthreading), so I'm figuring dedicate 
> one core to PPS handling (should give really low-jitter interrupt handling), 
> maybe one to ntpd, and combined with that precision reference, a pretty nice 
> NTP/PTP server should pop out the other side. The ethernet on the apu2 even 
> does hardware timestamping.
> 
> Can anyone think of a reason this wouldn't work, before I break out the 
> rework gear?
> 
> -j
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] How can I measure GPS Antenna quality?

[Mike Cook]

> Le 21 nov. 2016 à 02:57, Tom Van Baak  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Hal,
> 
> That's a very sensible question. I've often wondered the same, but I'm 
> embarrassed to say I have never done a thorough job with it. You know the 
> constellation repeats approximately every 24 hours so you want your X hours 
> to be a multiple of days.
> 
> Looking at SNR seems obvious and may even be sufficient. Alternatively you 
> could track the deviation of the per-SV timing solutions and draw conclusions 
> from that. I suspect multi-path effects would show up in these residuals more 
> than they would show up with just NSV (number of satellites received) or SNR 
> (signal to noise ratio)
> 
> But in some respects, the bottom line is not NSV or SNR or multi-path or 
> anything like that. What counts is only how well the 1PPS matches a local 
> high-quality time standard (e.g., Cesium or better).
> 
> Another issue is that it's possible that the quality of a set of N antenna 
> would sort differently for you than for me: different latitude, different 
> sky-view, different weather. Some time nuts (not me) get lucky with a 
> perfectly clear 360 degree horizon view.
> 
> I agree that N antennas and N receivers makes the experiment easier, because 
> you might spend as much time validating that a set of receivers are all the 
> same as later comparing various antennas.

Sensible question but not easy to answer directly without a  spectrum analyser 
directly connected. Not having one of those I went the n receivers/ m antenna 
method since all I wanted was to get the best subset from what I had. My 
antenna are of the €5-€25 puck variety and I tested about eight 5V, 5/3V active 
Noname and Trimble antenna with  half a dozen receiver types. I am unlucky in 
having just a north looking sky view and in built up area which gets me 
significant multi path at certain times. So I first of all selected a period 
during the day where all receivers were reporting best SNR and max NSV and most 
stable 1PPS . I then measured the 8 antenna over the same time interval (IIRC 
it was 08h-11h) against the 1PPS of a PRS10 rubidium ref.  The GPS 1PPS was 
verified to see if it held the manufacturers stability spec which they mostly 
did. It was easy to see this against the rubidium signal. So I picked the best 
4 and use them to feed my receiver pen via Mini-Circuits distribut
 ers ( There is a small signal loss here but in spec. 3db IIRC ). They have 
been in place for about 3-4 years at least without issue. 

> 
> With that in mind, consider the slice & dice (chopper) idea -- use a VHF 
> relay switch / mux and round-robin N antenna across N receivers every, say, 
> 10 minutes. That gives you 144 points per receiver / antenna pair per day and 
> avoids the geometry and pre-calibration issues, as well as environment and 
> local reference effects. Rubidium would be sufficient. It's possible the 
> first minute of each segment may be weird (as the receiver switches from lost 
> to lock mode), but you can handle that in your data reduction.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Hal Murray" 
> To: 
> Cc: "Hal Murray" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 2:13 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] How can I measure GPS Antenna quality?
> 
> 
>> 
>> Is that even a sensible question?  Is there a better way to phrase it?
>> 
>> 
>> The problem I'm trying to avoid is that the weather and the satellite 
>> geometry change over time so I can't just collect data for X hours, switch 
>> to 
>> the other antenna or move the antenna to another location, collect more 
>> data, 
>> then compare the two chunks of data.
>> 
>> The best I can think of would be to setup a reference system so I can 
>> collect 
>> data from  2 antennas and 2 receivers at the same time.  It would probably 
>> require some preliminary work to calibrate the receivers.  I think I can do 
>> that by swapping the antenna cables.
>> 
>> 
>> If I gave you a pile of data, how would you compute a quality number?  Can I 
>> just sum up the S/N slots for each visible/working satellite?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Knights OCXO: Now in plain text...

[Mike Cook]

> Le 8 déc. 2016 à 10:40, Matthias Jelen  a écrit :
> 
> Hello!
>  
> 3rd try, I was using a webmailer which changed it defaults to html. Thanks 
> for the hint Mike!
>  
> I got an OCXO from a piece of scrapped Agilent equipment.
>  
> The OCXO has a label on it saying:
>  
> CTS KNIGHTS
> 970-2123-2
> 10.000 MHz
> 08924-61037
>  
  I found a ref that the 08924-61037 is a HP part number and googling the two 
found

Pin 1 B+ 12.65V IN
Pin 2 GND
Pin 3 Oven +10-12V   +-
Pin 5 OSC Disable
SMB RF out

There is NO pin 4 . work that out.

Perf  10MHz 2x10-9/day

The URL is < http://www.mykit.com/kor/products/std/std_k2.html > 


> The OCXO has four wires and an RF-Connector, so RF OUT and GND are easy to 
> spot.
>  
> If find a lot of those on ebay, but no info on the pinout, supply voltage (or 
> performance...).
>  
> If anyone knows something about this part, I´d be gratefull.
>  
> Best regards,
>  
> Matthias
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Re: [time-nuts] Temperature weirdness with Thunderbolt & Lady Heather 5

[Mike Cook]

Hi Peter,
 I also have a T-Bolt monitored by LH5 but am not seeing any glitches like 
yours. No clear idea what may be the root cause, but from your screen dump all 
the metrics are affected so it is not likely to be just a failing temp sensor. 
Maybe something global such as power cleanliness. 


> Le 15 déc. 2016 à 03:05, Pete Stephenson  a écrit :
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a Thunderbolt and am running Lady Heather 5. I've been seeing
> odd drops of ~0.7 degrees Celsius that slowly recover over around 10
> minutes or so. This has happened 19 times in the last 36 hours.
> 
> Here's an image of what's happening:
> http://imgur.com/a/LAvmU
> 
> The temperature in the room is not precisely controlled, but is
> reasonably stable over a period of a few hours. There was no external
> events (e.g. opening a window, a fan being turned on, etc.) that
> correspond to those temperature drops.
> 
> Any idea what might be causing this?
> 
> Cheers!
> -Pete
> 
> -- 
> Pete Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.

[mike cook]

Nothing from Win7+latest Bitdefender update.


Le 22 juin 2013 à 16:12, Tom Miller a écrit :

> MSE reports the two .exe files as unsafe and contains a virus. Does anyone 
> else see the same thing?
> 
> Regards
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Mark C. Stephens" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands 
> don'twork.
> 
> 
> To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer,
> Its documented in the FE5680A technical manual.
> 
> After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
> doing my head in I came across this site:
> http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/
> 
> Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.
> 
> 
> -marki
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens
> Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.
> 
> I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 months 
> ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.
> 
> I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.
> 
> Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with 
> the rubidium:
> C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe
> 
> 
> Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
> [F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...
> Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC
> 
> Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd 
> 0x29 ASCII (.): 
> Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
> [30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
> 2000.00.
> Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00
> 
> Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 
> 0x2D ASCII (.): 
> Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
> ASCII (.): # .
> Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #
> 
> Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII 
> (.): W.
> Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W
> 
> Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
> [00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] 
> [52] [00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] 
> [00] [6F] [00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] 
> [87] [00] [8B] [00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
> /.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...
> Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }
> 
> Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
> [FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] 
> [D4] [FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] 
> [00] [16] [00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] 
> [29] [00] [48] [00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
> l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.
> Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F
> 
> Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
> [36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.
> Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6
> 
> Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
> [3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.
> Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439
> 
> Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd 
> 0x65 ASCII (.):  .
> Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
> ASCII (.): ...
> Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..
> Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4
> 
> However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem to 
> work.
> 
> I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
> trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.
> 
> Any hints graciously received with thanks :)
> 
> 
> -marki
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Re: [time-nuts] Oncore UT+ Battery Backup

[mike cook]

Le 27 juin 2013 à 07:04, Mark C. Stephens a écrit :

> I do believe the UT+ will try to charge the battery while on, so some sort of 
> rechargeable lithium cell is in order. 
> 

 Yes, you need to connect our battery via Pin1if not using a rechargeable on 
board. 

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of Bob Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, 27 June 2013 2:11 PM
> To: Time Nuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] Oncore UT+ Battery Backup
> 
> My UT+ unit does not have the onboard battery.  In looking at the various 
> manuals, I see that the battery backup voltage is from +2.5 to +5.25V.  So, 
> should I grab a 3V lithium cell and mount off an old motherboard, or should I 
> use a pair of AA batteries in a holder I think I have around here 
> "somewhere"?  Or is it just whatever comes to hand is fine?  I think the 
> drain is only micro-amps.
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
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Re: [time-nuts] BBC Precision: Measure of All Things

[mike cook]

For info, the BBC provide an app for iPhone and iPad to read these videos 
outside UK. Nothing for Android though :( .

Le 27 juin 2013 à 12:19, David Kirkby a écrit :

> On 27 June 2013 06:08, Doug Calvert  wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Dan Rae  wrote:
 
>>> And BBC tv shows are not available (legitimately) for download or on demand
>>> outside the UK anyway.
>> 
>> 
>> What is your point? Would you prefer  that I only post things that are
>> relevant to time nuts on this side of the pond?
> 
> I'm sure Dan's comment was well meant - he was just stating a fact,
> which was just as relevant as mine about the deadline. If someone
> outside the UK wanted to watch it, they know they would have to book a
> flight!
> 
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Regulator Choices

[mike cook]

Le 29 juin 2013 à 06:12, Perry Sandeen a écrit :

> 
> 
> Wrote: Consider using a LT1083 7.5 Amp regulator.  
>  
> Well it is $14 each.  The LM 1084 5 Amp 1s $2.43 each
>  
> Hefty premium for an extra 2.5 Amps.
>  
> If one needs greater than 5 amps, the LM 1084 data
> sheet shows how to easily parallel 2 or 3.

 I suppose that the same philosophy would apply to getting more power with a 
7805 farm.

>  
> What’s in your wallet?  
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Perrier
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] looking for low-power system for gps ntp timekeeping

[mike cook]

Le 2 juil. 2013 à 02:52, Bob Camp a écrit :

> Hi
> 
< snip>
> 
> The reference I was making was to a "pie in the sky" 1.8 GHz clocked timer 
> integrated into a CPU chip. That would let you come up with ~ 600 ps timing 
> directly. Since it would be both unusual and very fast, a driver (potentially 
> tightly linked to the kernel) would be needed. That's not a trivial thing….

Is that what you really want? In most modern x86 CPU's you have a TSC which is 
a 64bit counter incremented at the cpu clock cycle speed . You can capture that 
with a single instruction. NTP uses that if it is available.  So to get an 
accurate TI you just take 2 samples and subtract. You just need to take into 
account interrupt handling latency. I don't think this is available in ARM 
under that name, but there is a cycle count register CCNT which does the same 
thing. I think it is 64 bit as well.

Mike

> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] How dangerous if Rb lamp broken?

[mike cook]

Le 9 juil. 2013 à 13:49, Robert Atkinson a écrit :

> Hi
> Why are so many people radiophobic? As in ionising radiation. There are far 
> more hazardous things in our hobby, electrocution and falling from a height 
> be two of the big killers. I defy anyone to come up with a confirmed case of 
> death caused by radiation as part of our hobby. Lead, solder flux, mercury, 
> PCB's (the chemical in some caps and transformers) and cleaning solvents are 
> all more harmful to our health. The use of radioisotopes directly or 
> indirectly saves lives every day. Coal fired powerstations release more long 
> life radioactive isotopes ro the environment than a nuclear one would ever be 
> permitted to, plus a load of heavy metals. 

How true. I can't understand it either.

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