Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Well …. ummm …. errr …. it turns out that there *are* (or were) papers 
published on the topic that are
“well known” in the … e …. space community and pop right out of the stack 
of papers that the guys 
from …. errr ….  a well known space outfit in California bring with them ….

The issue is that below some magic percentage of the rated voltage, the 
dielectric may try to re-form.
When it does, the outcome is a bit unpredictable. As I recall it applies both 
to tantalum and aluminum 
parts. There are different factors for the two types.

Keep in mind this all came up in a meeting in the mid 1990’s ….memory is only 
just so good ...

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2019, at 9:56 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/25/19 5:48 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> Indeed there is both a minimum and a maximum working voltage for a properly 
>> derated electrolytic
>> capacitor. We found that out in the middle of a design review when the 
>> customer’s team brought it
>> up … (much to our surprise).
>> Bob
> 
> 
> The Cornell Dubilier app guide doesn't seem to mention it.
> http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/AEappGUIDE.pdf
> 
> NAVSEA derating guidelines make no mention of it:
> https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Portals/103/Documents/NSWC_Crane/SD-18/PDFs/Products/Capacitors/CapacitorsDeratingRevB.pdf
> 
> They're both appear to be focused on essentially setting a lower voltage as a 
> thermal consideration, and not on a "giving you more margin to failure 
> voltage".
> 
> https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/reliability_of_capacitors_general.pdf
> 
> says you only get a max of twice rated life by derating.  Maybe that's 
> because of the "reforming of the dielectric to a thinner layer"..
> 
> This is a compendium from 1981 of all sorts of capacitor information but 
> doesn't seem to address derating.
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810017835.pdf
> 
> 
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160003309.pdf has a 
> lot of info on wet slug tantalums..
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In message 
>>> , Dana 
>>> Whitlow writes:
>>> 
 This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty 
 pointless.
 
 Any comments on this notion?
>>> 
>>> I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or
>>> wisdom available.
>>> 
>>> As I understand it, even very brief voltage spikes must be kept under the
>>> rated voltage, so overrating would buy some transient durability, but
>>> other than that...
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>>> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>>> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <1f48decf-dee6-220f-f7ce-948642724...@rubidium.se>, Magnus Danielson 
writes:

>The trouble with aluminium electrolytics is [...]

Thanks for proving the exact point I made in my email yesterday.

Now please go read it, because it contains some important details :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] GN-GGB0710 GNSS Antenna

[Ben Hall]

On 2/24/2019 7:01 PM, djl wrote:

Probably tapped for 1/2" pipe thread.


Hi Don,

I don't think so - the threads were much too coarse.  1/2" NPT is 14 
threads per inch.  My 5/8-11 tap went in quite easily and didn't cut new 
threads, just deepened up the original threads...


thanks,
ben


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Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 2019-02-25 07:48, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 
, Dana 
Whitlow writes:


This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty pointless.

Any comments on this notion?

I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or
wisdom available.

As I understand it, even very brief voltage spikes must be kept under the
rated voltage, so overrating would buy some transient durability, but
other than that...

The trouble with aluminium electrolytics is that if not voltaged is 
applied, the oxide layer slowly breaks down. This is why the capacitors 
is stored charged and needs to have slowly increased voltage for the 
oxide layer to rebuild. If too high voltage is applied it breaks 
through. Now, over-rating could potentially not work very well if not 
operated at high enough voltage.


I don't recall for sure the reference for this, but I think some of it 
was out of AT&T Reliability manual. I'm too far away on travels from my 
library to check on details.


It's also a concern with boat-anchor equipment. Direct full-voltage 
power-up can make the caps blow in the PSU.


Cheers,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual

[Michael Wouters]

Hello Rodger,
We have one of these still operating in the lab and I have a manual. Please
contact me off list.

Cheers
Michael

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 3:00 am, Rodger via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Thanks but that manual is for the slave clock displays.  I'm looking for
> the
> manual for the master, which is a single unit, rack mounted device.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Joseph
> Gray
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:52 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual
>
> Older model, but this may help.
>
>
> http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID3748302/fileID641557522/641557522
> .pdf
> 
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 9:03 PM Rodger via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello List,
> >
> >
> >
> > I am looking for the manual for a Leitch CSD-5300 master clock.  These
> > were used in the broadcast industry in the 80s and 90s.  There is a
> > related white paper on the internet titled "A Telephone-Based Time
> > Dissemination System"
> > with a filename of ADA499239.pdf that describes the system but this is
> > NOT the document I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to find an
> > operations/service manual that includes connector pinouts, schematics,
> > etc.  I know it exists but it's been many years since I've seen a copy.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an interesting device that is frequently available on the
> > auction sites.  It accepts a 5 or 10 mhz reference input and outputs
> > SMPTE timecode,
> > BCD time/date, as well as impulse drive.   Any help with the manual will
> be
> > appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rodger Adams, WB4HIR
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go
> > to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] GN-GGB0710 GPS Antenna Mounting Thread

[jimlux]

On 2/25/19 8:44 AM, David Witten wrote:

The bit of threaded tubing I found at the hardware store that fits
perfectly is labeled:

ProLine plumbing and heating products
BN-750NLB
877250
Nipple
(Niple)
1/4 inch x 1/4 inch x 6 inch
MIP
for installation instructions visit:
www.bkproducts.com

I was surprised by the 1/4 inch bit, as it seems distinctly larger.  It is
definitely tapered and threads smoothly, and seats firmly with all of the
threads engaged.



Unlike tubing (which is "true to size") pipe sizes bear no discernable 
easy to remember relationship to their physical dimensions.


1/4" pipe is a bit more than 1/2" OD.. (and 1/8" is not much smaller)
It's because originally, it was 1/4" ID, with standard wall thickness.. 
It's significantly bigger than 1/4" now, in any available wall thickness.


It's like all the various "gauges" for diameters and thicknesses.. they 
all come from some original "good idea" unique to an application - so 
depending on which metal it is, the gauge number for a given thickness 
is different. (and then we get to shotgun barrel and shot sizes...)


Or things like steam horsepower ratings for boilers, or...

This is why I have a PocketRef in my toolbox, with some pages tabbed or 
dogeared.






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[time-nuts] GN-GGB0710 GPS Antenna Mounting Thread

[David Witten]

The bit of threaded tubing I found at the hardware store that fits
perfectly is labeled:

ProLine plumbing and heating products
BN-750NLB
877250
Nipple
(Niple)
1/4 inch x 1/4 inch x 6 inch
MIP
for installation instructions visit:
www.bkproducts.com

I was surprised by the 1/4 inch bit, as it seems distinctly larger.  It is
definitely tapered and threads smoothly, and seats firmly with all of the
threads engaged.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[jimlux]

On 2/25/19 5:48 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Indeed there is both a minimum and a maximum working voltage for a properly 
derated electrolytic
capacitor. We found that out in the middle of a design review when the 
customer’s team brought it
up … (much to our surprise).

Bob




The Cornell Dubilier app guide doesn't seem to mention it.
http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/AEappGUIDE.pdf

NAVSEA derating guidelines make no mention of it:
https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Portals/103/Documents/NSWC_Crane/SD-18/PDFs/Products/Capacitors/CapacitorsDeratingRevB.pdf

They're both appear to be focused on essentially setting a lower voltage 
as a thermal consideration, and not on a "giving you more margin to 
failure voltage".


https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/reliability_of_capacitors_general.pdf

says you only get a max of twice rated life by derating.  Maybe that's 
because of the "reforming of the dielectric to a thinner layer"..


This is a compendium from 1981 of all sorts of capacitor information but 
doesn't seem to address derating.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810017835.pdf


https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160003309.pdf 
has a lot of info on wet slug tantalums..






On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:


In message 
, Dana 
Whitlow writes:


This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty pointless.

Any comments on this notion?


I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or
wisdom available.

As I understand it, even very brief voltage spikes must be kept under the
rated voltage, so overrating would buy some transient durability, but
other than that...

--
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual

[Rodger via time-nuts]

Thanks but that manual is for the slave clock displays.  I'm looking for the
manual for the master, which is a single unit, rack mounted device.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Joseph Gray
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:52 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual

Older model, but this may help.

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID3748302/fileID641557522/641557522
.pdf

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 9:03 PM Rodger via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Hello List,
>
>
>
> I am looking for the manual for a Leitch CSD-5300 master clock.  These 
> were used in the broadcast industry in the 80s and 90s.  There is a 
> related white paper on the internet titled "A Telephone-Based Time 
> Dissemination System"
> with a filename of ADA499239.pdf that describes the system but this is 
> NOT the document I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to find an 
> operations/service manual that includes connector pinouts, schematics, 
> etc.  I know it exists but it's been many years since I've seen a copy.
>
>
>
> This is an interesting device that is frequently available on the 
> auction sites.  It accepts a 5 or 10 mhz reference input and outputs 
> SMPTE timecode,
> BCD time/date, as well as impulse drive.   Any help with the manual will
be
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Rodger Adams, WB4HIR
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go 
> to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GN-GGB0710 GNSS Antenna

[jimlux]

On 2/24/19 5:01 PM, djl wrote:

Probably tapped for 1/2" pipe thread.
Don



I don't know.. 1/2" NPT is 0.840" which a lot bigger than 5/8" 0.625"
3/8" NPT is 0.675, which would be pretty loose on a 5/8" bolt. 3/8" is 
18 TPI. Not til you get up to the 1" and bigger do you get down to 11.5 TPI.


I have seen antennas with pipe thread - the idea is that you are 
bringing the cable down through rigid metallic conduit - but it was 3/4" 
NPT pipe. 1.050" OD, 14 TPI.



An interesting question - how many turns of mismatched thread pitch do 
you get before it binds?


Maybe it's a somewhat non-standard tapered 5/8-11? - as others have 
noted, 5/8-11 is a standard surveying tripod thread. I'll also note that 
on a tripod typically you have the bolt and often has a tightening nut, 
so you can deal with both shallow and deep holes in the instrument 
you're putting on top. You thread the bolt up into the instrument, then 
spin the nut up against the bottom of the mounting surface to pull the 
instrument snug on the top surface.


(or a poorly manufactured 5/8-11?)


On 2019-02-24 12:40, Ben Hall wrote:

Good evening all,

After almost a month in transit, my GN-GGB0710 GNSS antenna arrived
from the auction site "we all know and love."  ;)

Unit was not tapped to a proper 5/8"-11 TPI thread.  A standard 5/8-11
bolt went in maybe two full threads.  I modified an old tap I had in
the drawer into a 5/8"-11 bottom tap and cleaned it up.  Best I can
tell, the thread cut by the manufacturer was slightly tapered.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Indeed there is both a minimum and a maximum working voltage for a properly 
derated electrolytic 
capacitor. We found that out in the middle of a design review when the 
customer’s team brought it 
up … (much to our surprise).

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message 
> , Dana 
> Whitlow writes:
> 
>> This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty 
>> pointless.
>> 
>> Any comments on this notion?
> 
> I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or
> wisdom available.
> 
> As I understand it, even very brief voltage spikes must be kept under the
> rated voltage, so overrating would buy some transient durability, but
> other than that...
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, go to 
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Re: [time-nuts] how to feed multiple GPS receivers ?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

On a GPS distribution system the issue of 75 vs 50 ohm cable is pretty much a 
non-issue. A lot of people have run 75 ohms (like Trimble on the TBolt) and had
no problems from this.

The “TV” splitters are generally spec’d to 2 GHz, so well beyond GPS 
frequencies.
Again, it should not be an issue. There are also cheap multi-port splitters on 
the 
auction sites. 

DC blocks *are* a good idea. DC loads may or may not be needed. It’s a try it 
and see
sort of thing. Some have been known to simply drop a 50 ohm load on one port of 
a 
8 way splitter and let that be the DC load. You *can* run into issues doing 
this ….
(one device feeds 12V and another is a 3.3V feed …. smoke results …). Cable TV 
DC blocks are dirt cheap ….

Ideally you want the antenna as high as you can get it. In an urban area with 
various
constraints, that may or may not be very high. Coax losses plus splitter losses 
should
be considered when designing something like this. An amplifier ahead of the 
splitter 
is not at all unusual. 

With the arrival of world of low cost multi-band GPS devices … put up a 
multi-band
antenna. At the very least L1 / L2 (including Glonass coverage). Ideally L1 / 
L2 / L5. 
Much easier to do it right the first time.

Bob



> On Feb 24, 2019, at 4:59 PM, shouldbe q931  wrote:
> 
> After starting off with a single GPS module on a RaspberryPi, and
> discovering the issues of just having a single clock... I now have
> three GPS receivers (and a fourth on the way) of various types, each
> with their own antenna. I'm aware that I'm heading off down an
> interesting road that will consume ever more of my time, but at the
> moment it's still fun (-:
> 
> To remove the difference of multiple antennas (different skyviews
> etc), I'm thinking about using a single antenna and "distributing" the
> feed to the receivers.
> 
> I should also add that I'm doing this in the UK (in central London),
> and as inexpensively as possible.
> 
> Reading back through the mailing list several people appear to have
> used SatTV splitters with GPS signals to apparently good results, and
> I've ordered one of these
> https://vision-products.co.uk/8-way-single-port-dc-pass-splitter/
> which if I understand it correctly, will passthrough DC from one port,
> and block DC from the other ports. From other reading of the mailing
> list, it looks as if I will also need to present a DC load to the
> other receivers, and if I've read corectly this would be a "Bias tee"
> used with a resitive load instead of a DC voltage, but am not sure if
> I have understood correctly.
> 
> I'm aware of impedance matching issues with using a mix of 75 ohm and
> 50 ohm parts, but as I said, I'm doing this as inexpensively as
> possible, and a 58536A is way over budget at the moment.
> 
> Any suggestions gratefully received.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Arne
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual

[Joseph Gray]

Older model, but this may help.

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID3748302/fileID641557522/641557522.pdf

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 9:03 PM Rodger via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Hello List,
>
>
>
> I am looking for the manual for a Leitch CSD-5300 master clock.  These were
> used in the broadcast industry in the 80s and 90s.  There is a related
> white
> paper on the internet titled "A Telephone-Based Time Dissemination System"
> with a filename of ADA499239.pdf that describes the system but this is NOT
> the document I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to find an operations/service
> manual that includes connector pinouts, schematics, etc.  I know it exists
> but it's been many years since I've seen a copy.
>
>
>
> This is an interesting device that is frequently available on the auction
> sites.  It accepts a 5 or 10 mhz reference input and outputs SMPTE
> timecode,
> BCD time/date, as well as impulse drive.   Any help with the manual will be
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Rodger Adams, WB4HIR
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

[Alex Pummer]

I do not know, if the brake down voltage decreases if the electrolyte 
capacitor is used well bellow the original rated voltage, but I know 
from experience, that if you cautiously and slowly increase the voltage 
across the capacitor it will work at higher than the rated voltage, but 
with reduced capacitance.


Alex

On 2/24/2019 7:08 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote:

I remember often reading that if you run a 'lyt at a voltage much reduced
from its rating,
the oxide layer would get thinner over time so that in the end, the
effective rating of the
capacitor was about what you had been running it at.  This would seem to
imply that
purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty pointless.

Any comments on this notion?

Dana


On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 7:01 PM Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:


Am 24.02.19 um 14:39 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist:

yet they got a pass and became SOP.  The R&D lab manager
at Santa Clara Division famously said "no customer chooses
HP products because they have great power supplies."


G..  My HP16500C has a defective PS and my 4274A RLC bridge

had a major explosion inside. OMG, WHAT A MESS! All that black magic smoke!

I re-caped the bridge, it took me a day on the DIgikey site to find
replacements.

I had to use substantially larger voltages to make them fit mechanically.

But that is a good thing.

cheers, Gerhard



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[time-nuts] Leitch CSD-5300 Master Clock Manual

[Rodger via time-nuts]

Hello List,

 

I am looking for the manual for a Leitch CSD-5300 master clock.  These were
used in the broadcast industry in the 80s and 90s.  There is a related white
paper on the internet titled "A Telephone-Based Time Dissemination System"
with a filename of ADA499239.pdf that describes the system but this is NOT
the document I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to find an operations/service
manual that includes connector pinouts, schematics, etc.  I know it exists
but it's been many years since I've seen a copy.  

 

This is an interesting device that is frequently available on the auction
sites.  It accepts a 5 or 10 mhz reference input and outputs SMPTE timecode,
BCD time/date, as well as impulse drive.   Any help with the manual will be
appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Rodger Adams, WB4HIR

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