RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list!

[Matthew O'Haire]

If you find Tomcat hard to setup and use there are other options.  Several
vendors actually use Apache and Tomcat as OEM for their web application
servers.

One of them is Borland, who's Application Server (web server edition)
http://www.borland.com/besweb/ provides a nice management GUI for
starting/stopping/deployment/etc.  It ain't perfect but it's an improvement
on "raw" Apache/Tomcat.

You also get a vendor who supports the products and can provide assistance
(and someone to yell at ;-)  All for a pretty reasonable US$399.

RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Turner, John wrote:

> You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.

This is not actually true in the legal sense, or really any longer
relevant in the practical sense.

In the legal sense, Tomcat code is *used in* the reference implementation
for J2EE, which has been the official RI to date for the servlet and JSP
specs.  Tomcat by itself is not, and never has been, the "official" RI.
It is now possible, though (thanks to the JCP modifications championed by
Apache, and announced at JavaOne 2002), to certify that Tomcat officially
conforms to the specs -- but it is till not, on its own, the RI.

In a practical sense, way to many people have invested way too much time
in adding high qualify features and performance improvements to Tomcat to
think of it as "just" a reference implementation.  Tomcat generally gets
in the neighborhood of 80k downloads per month, just off of Apache's main
web site.  I suspect that more than a few of those downloads end up on
production servers for mission critical applications :-).

> Nobody is positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.

By the way, there is no such thing as a "be-all, end-all" solution to any
complex problem, commercial or otherwise :-).

Craig



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RE: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !

[Price, Erik]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:43 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !
> 


> referred to the mail archives).  At least with a vendor I have 
> someone to yell at.  And I've seen that technique work.

I think you've just established your MO.  As another poster has said, that doesn't 
work with open source projects.  (There are consulting companies who will let you yell 
at them about Tomcat, if that helps any.)


Erik


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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[V. Cekvenich]

Using Tomcat beacuse it's free is a mistake. You should allways use the 
best:
http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php

In general Tomcat is less buggy than comercial products.

Also, I do ecourage you to get paid support from Oracle, BEA, etc. See 
how they support you, since you pay them.


Some people think you look cool in Gucci shades wearing Verace.
Others:
http://www.sdtimes.com/news/063/story2.htm

You can foucs on spending more and doing less or on doing more and 
spending less.


.V

Michael Nicholson wrote:
And there is the final answer... or at least the bottom line.  In general in
life, you get what you pay for.  We're lucky... with Tomcat we get a WHOLE
LOT MORE.  I think it took me three or four days to get tomcat running jsps
and servlets, mainly because the guy in charge of our system had a JDK 1.3
running, and things weren't happy.  I don't know if he had done something
strange or what, but once I installed a JDK 1.4 and pointed tomcat at it, it
ran fine.  Mind you, I was also doing this while learning about JDKs, jsps,
servlets, and java, so I didn't put ALL of my effort into it.

And my background is "technical."  I spent the last two years as an
assistant fencing coach, but before that I spent a little bit of time using
excel and visual basic for applications (which has complete documentation,
might I add!  And may I also add, I hope to NEVER USE IT AGAIN.  I didn't
like VBA very much...:))  Then I started using Access and VBA, and then when
we wanted to take it online, I started learning Java, jsps, tomcat, etc.

And yes, every now and then I wish there were a better indexed, nicely
formatted set of documentation.  I dwell on that for a good 15 seconds, open
up google, search the archives, mess around trying things, ask questions,
and before long, whatever didn't work, does.

I think the vast majority of us are happy with this.  If not, please send
your self address stamped envelope to the following address for a full
refund:



Oh well, and least all that undergraduate work in Chemistry is paying
off...:)

In a whimsical mood,
Mike



- Original Message -
From: "Hamilton, Andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


You know what really bothers me about this whole thread:  Tomcat is free.
What right does anyone have to complain about free stuff?  That's like
complaining cause someone gave you free beer but it said Generic on the
label.  It might not go down as smoothly but the effect is the same.  I
setup Tomcat without problems in minutes.  But then again I read the docs.
It was a challenge to get through some of them but I managed to do it.  Me,
I only have 8 years of experience as a developer and systems admin.  All
that experience must be doing something to the guys brain like turning it to
mush.  I'm a serious advocate of open source in all its guises and I do
appreciate this list and the help I get from it.  Fortunately I don't have
to ask many questions because mostly I can search the archives and someone
has asked it before me and gotten the answer.  So for my part I want to
thank you all.

Regards,

Drew

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:33 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction

mod_jk2 configuration (was: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !)

[Dave Sill]

"Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> That said, I hope to have a JK2 HOWTO this weekend.  Did you get your issues
> resolved using the HOWTO you found?

I haven't had a chance yet. If that doesn't help, I'll probably be
back...or waiting for your HOWTO.

Thanks.

-- 
Dave Sill Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support
Author, The qmail Handbook
: Almost everything you always wanted to know.

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

That said, I hope to have a JK2 HOWTO this weekend.  Did you get your issues
resolved using the HOWTO you found?

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:08 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Sorry, Dave.  I don't use JK2, that is why I didn't reply.  
> I figured I
> > would be wasting your time by making suggestions.  I'm sure 
> there are
> > perfectly valid reasons why others did not reply.
> 
> I understand that.
>  
> > Sometimes you don't get a response for a couple of reasons:
> 
> I'm well aware of the reasons list queries go unanswered. As an
> experienced list user, I did everything I could to maximize my
> probability of response. I:
> 
>   o  checked the documentation,
>   o  searched the list archives,
>   o  googled,
>   o  included sufficient first-round details, and
>   o  included relevant config files and error messages.
> 
> I also realize that even when one does all the right things, no
> response is guaranteed. Again, I'm not complaining. I may be a
> clueless newbie on this list, but on other lists I'm an answerer. I
> try to make sure that all well-asked questions get a response, even if
> it's not definitive.
> 
> > There are other JK2 HOWTOs out there beyond the one from 
> pubbitch.org.
> > Perhaps they may be of some help.
> 
> Yes, I found another one mentioned in this thread.
> 
> -- 
> Dave Sill Oak Ridge National Lab, 
> Workstation Support
> Author, The qmail Handbook
<http://web.infoave.net/~dsill>
<http://lifewithqmail.org/>: Almost everything you always wanted to know.

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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Dave Sill]

"Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Sorry, Dave.  I don't use JK2, that is why I didn't reply.  I figured I
> would be wasting your time by making suggestions.  I'm sure there are
> perfectly valid reasons why others did not reply.

I understand that.
 
> Sometimes you don't get a response for a couple of reasons:

I'm well aware of the reasons list queries go unanswered. As an
experienced list user, I did everything I could to maximize my
probability of response. I:

  o  checked the documentation,
  o  searched the list archives,
  o  googled,
  o  included sufficient first-round details, and
  o  included relevant config files and error messages.

I also realize that even when one does all the right things, no
response is guaranteed. Again, I'm not complaining. I may be a
clueless newbie on this list, but on other lists I'm an answerer. I
try to make sure that all well-asked questions get a response, even if
it's not definitive.

> There are other JK2 HOWTOs out there beyond the one from pubbitch.org.
> Perhaps they may be of some help.

Yes, I found another one mentioned in this thread.

-- 
Dave Sill Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support
Author, The qmail Handbook
: Almost everything you always wanted to know.

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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[V. Cekvenich]

Using Tomcat beacuse it's free is a mistake. You should allways use the 
best:
http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php

In general Tomcat is less buggy than comercial products.

Also, I do ecourage you to get paid support from Oracle, BEA, etc. See 
how they support you, since you pay them.


Some people think you look cool in Gucci shades wearing Verace.
Others:
http://www.sdtimes.com/news/063/story2.htm

You can foucs on spending more and doing less or on doing more and 
spending less.


.V

Michael Nicholson wrote:
And there is the final answer... or at least the bottom line.  In general in
life, you get what you pay for.  We're lucky... with Tomcat we get a WHOLE
LOT MORE.  I think it took me three or four days to get tomcat running jsps
and servlets, mainly because the guy in charge of our system had a JDK 1.3
running, and things weren't happy.  I don't know if he had done something
strange or what, but once I installed a JDK 1.4 and pointed tomcat at it, it
ran fine.  Mind you, I was also doing this while learning about JDKs, jsps,
servlets, and java, so I didn't put ALL of my effort into it.

And my background is "technical."  I spent the last two years as an
assistant fencing coach, but before that I spent a little bit of time using
excel and visual basic for applications (which has complete documentation,
might I add!  And may I also add, I hope to NEVER USE IT AGAIN.  I didn't
like VBA very much...:))  Then I started using Access and VBA, and then when
we wanted to take it online, I started learning Java, jsps, tomcat, etc.

And yes, every now and then I wish there were a better indexed, nicely
formatted set of documentation.  I dwell on that for a good 15 seconds, open
up google, search the archives, mess around trying things, ask questions,
and before long, whatever didn't work, does.

I think the vast majority of us are happy with this.  If not, please send
your self address stamped envelope to the following address for a full
refund:



Oh well, and least all that undergraduate work in Chemistry is paying
off...:)

In a whimsical mood,
Mike



- Original Message -
From: "Hamilton, Andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


You know what really bothers me about this whole thread:  Tomcat is free.
What right does anyone have to complain about free stuff?  That's like
complaining cause someone gave you free beer but it said Generic on the
label.  It might not go down as smoothly but the effect is the same.  I
setup Tomcat without problems in minutes.  But then again I read the docs.
It was a challenge to get through some of them but I managed to do it.  Me,
I only have 8 years of experience as a developer and systems admin.  All
that experience must be doing something to the guys brain like turning it to
mush.  I'm a serious advocate of open source in all its guises and I do
appreciate this list and the help I get from it.  Fortunately I don't have
to ask many questions because mostly I can search the archives and someone
has asked it before me and gotten the answer.  So for my part I want to
thank you all.

Regards,

Drew

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:33 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction

RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Sorry, Dave.  I don't use JK2, that is why I didn't reply.  I figured I
would be wasting your time by making suggestions.  I'm sure there are
perfectly valid reasons why others did not reply.

Sometimes you don't get a response for a couple of reasons:

1) a person who could respond either isn't interested in responding to a FAQ
or is otherwise occupied (vacation, etc)

2) a person who is willing to respond and help has no specific experience in
the area of the problem and thus will probably cause the poster to waste
more time than they will save

There are other JK2 HOWTOs out there beyond the one from pubbitch.org.
Perhaps they may be of some help.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Our company has a very young, inexperienced appserver administrator
> > who had Tomcat up an running in a matter of minutes (literally)
> > without a CD library of professionally drafted set of documentation.
> 
> With an Apache connector? Running as a nonprivileged user and/or
> chrooted?
> 
> > Instead of complaining, why not post the specific nature of your
> > problems and let people here help you?
> 
> I'm not complaining, and I did exactly that. Know what response I got?
> Nothing. Not one reply. No requests for more info, no flames, no
> "outta work"'s, ... nothing. See:
> 
>   
> http://www.mail-archive.com/tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org/msg
> 76175.html
> 
> I know I'm not entitled to a response, but when the documention fails
> and only other support channel available fails, it's frustrating.
> 
> -- 
> Dave Sill Oak Ridge National Lab, 
> Workstation Support
> Author, The qmail Handbook
> <http://web.infoave.net/~dsill>
> <http://lifewithqmail.org/>: Almost everything you always 
> wanted to know.
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Dave Sill]

Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Our company has a very young, inexperienced appserver administrator
> who had Tomcat up an running in a matter of minutes (literally)
> without a CD library of professionally drafted set of documentation.

With an Apache connector? Running as a nonprivileged user and/or
chrooted?

> Instead of complaining, why not post the specific nature of your
> problems and let people here help you?

I'm not complaining, and I did exactly that. Know what response I got?
Nothing. Not one reply. No requests for more info, no flames, no
"outta work"'s, ... nothing. See:

  http://www.mail-archive.com/tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org/msg76175.html

I know I'm not entitled to a response, but when the documention fails
and only other support channel available fails, it's frustrating.

-- 
Dave Sill Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support
Author, The qmail Handbook
: Almost everything you always wanted to know.

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Jim Henderson]

Oooops!  This must have been sent in error!  Or, are we all (Tomcat User
List) going to be taken to court?

-Original Message-
From: micael
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:58 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents contain
information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally
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indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
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information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you
have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.  Thank
you



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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Here's the documentation, in non-geek speak, for one virtual host, on
multiple platforms (Linux and Solaris):

http://www.johnturner.com/howto

Setting it up for a second (and more) virtual hosts is left as an exercise
for the reader.  Hint: its the same as "localhost/examples".

Oh, and you're welcome.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> >The documentation sure does need some work in certain areas, but it 
> >is hardly in the sad state that you claim it is in.
> 
> Okay, let me give a specific example.  I will describe to you a 
> likely standard configuration for a server that would be used in a 
> typical commercial setting.  Prove tomcat can handle this.  Prove the 
> documentation is available in normal English.  I will also show you 
> absolute geek-speak in the documentation.
> 
> Typical Server Configuration: tomcat serving pages through apache on 
> port 80 for multiple (virtual) web sites on one web server.  How many 
> out there have this?  Yes, you can get tomcat up and running on port 
> 8080 very quickly.  How often do you commerical software developers 
> type http://www.company.com:8080/foo.jsp when visiting commercial 
> sites?
> 
> Problems with the "documentation" (using the term liberally 
> in this case):
> 
> 1) First, no where on Jakarta's main site is it mentioned that some 
> type of connector is needed to have tomcat serve page through Apache. 
> I believe the connectors go by several names (mod_jk, mod_jk2, 
> mod_webapp, and Catalina being some).  None of these are mentioned or 
> are listed (there are certainly no links).
> 
> 2) Lets say one wants to use a relatively new version of software - 
> say Apache 2.0 with mod_jk2.  There is some nice background info on 
> mod_jk2 at:
> 
>http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2/doc/
> 
> Reading through that and links on that page is of little help. 
> However, there appear to be other useful links on that page.
> 
> Configuration info for mod_jk2 is at:
>  
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2
/doc/configtcex.html

This is in the second paragraph, "There is no need to use the jkjni 
logic to use normal socket".  Why would one care about "jkjni"?  How 
the hell is this even relevant to anything?

Now I could go on and on.  But what is the point.  It is just more 
geek speak.  And I haven't even gotten to other situations: running 
multiple instance of tomcat, having tomcat run on a different server, 
clustering, etc...

Why waste my time.  I'll vote with my feet and use something else. 
If developers aren't interested in making their software usable by 
writing clear documentation, I won't use it.

Mike

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Reynir Hübner]

According to my counting this is comment Number 75 on a thread that does not solve any 
problems.
I am thinking about to unsubscribe to the list. Please stop, this is enough.

Bye
 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]


> -Original Message-
> From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: 10. desember 2002 14:06
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> 
> Something you've forgotten:  you might be able to pay $1000 
> and get JRUN, but could you ever, ever in your wildest dreams 
> or demands, talk directly with the person who not only wrote 
> the exact code you're using, but is responsible for setting 
> the standard that the code is based on if you did? Nope.
> 
> But here, on this list, you can get support from the people 
> who not only write Tomcat itself, but are also involved in 
> setting the standard itself. Applications like Websphere, 
> etc. are based on a reference implementation (ie, Tomcat).  
> Tomcat isn't something someone is building in their garage, 
> and neither are the other Jakarta projects.  So, you could 
> spend $60K (and
> more) for Websphere from IBM, and get a nice set of 
> documentation with it, or you could pay nothing and get not 
> only the software, but the attention of the guy who wrote the 
> software and who designed the architecture that a product 
> like Websphere is not only based on, but MUST support.  You 
> can't pay for that level of support from any commercial 
> software company...they don't even provide it, and if they 
> did, it would cost you tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> Seems obvious to me which option is the best option, but I 
> guess it's possible that I live in some sort of alternate 
> universe and that the tomcat-user list is the only portal 
> between my alternate universe and yours. LOL
> 
> John
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37 PM
> > To: Tomcat Users List
> > Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
> > developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed 
> > dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and 
> > frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped 
> > trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I 
> > looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> > 
> > Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
> > building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of 
> > pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate 
> > software on three important criteria: does it do what it is 
> intended, 
> > can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> > 
> > In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
> > the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to 
> because I 
> > can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> > 
> > Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
> > Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with 
> > Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE 
> > implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer 
> > does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are 
> supposed to 
> > (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is 
> > available for free.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >  > -Original Message-
> > >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> > >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> > >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this 
> open list !
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies
> > to Jakarta.
> > >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate 
> documentation  
> > >> for tomcat.
> > >
> > >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That
> > is how things
> > >get done: someone DOES them.
> > >
> > >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list 
> looking for 
> > >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's 
> > >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> > >
> > >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> > >
> > >   --- Noel
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> <mailto:tomcat-user-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
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> additional commands, 
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> 
> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Something you've forgotten:  you might be able to pay $1000 and get JRUN,
but could you ever, ever in your wildest dreams or demands, talk directly
with the person who not only wrote the exact code you're using, but is
responsible for setting the standard that the code is based on if you did?
Nope.

But here, on this list, you can get support from the people who not only
write Tomcat itself, but are also involved in setting the standard itself.
Applications like Websphere, etc. are based on a reference implementation
(ie, Tomcat).  Tomcat isn't something someone is building in their garage,
and neither are the other Jakarta projects.  So, you could spend $60K (and
more) for Websphere from IBM, and get a nice set of documentation with it,
or you could pay nothing and get not only the software, but the attention of
the guy who wrote the software and who designed the architecture that a
product like Websphere is not only based on, but MUST support.  You can't
pay for that level of support from any commercial software company...they
don't even provide it, and if they did, it would cost you tens of thousands
of dollars.

Seems obvious to me which option is the best option, but I guess it's
possible that I live in some sort of alternate universe and that the
tomcat-user list is the only portal between my alternate universe and yours.
LOL

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta 
> developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed 
> dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and 
> frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped 
> trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I 
> looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> 
> Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of 
> building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of 
> pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate 
> software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended, 
> can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> 
> In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of 
> the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I 
> can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> 
> Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost 
> Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with 
> Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE 
> implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer 
> does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to 
> (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is 
> available for free.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> >  > -Original Message-
> >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> >>
> >>
> >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies 
> to Jakarta.
> >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> >>  for tomcat.
> >
> >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That 
> is how things
> >get done: someone DOES them.
> >
> >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
> >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
> >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> >
> >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Michael Nicholson]

And there is the final answer... or at least the bottom line.  In general in
life, you get what you pay for.  We're lucky... with Tomcat we get a WHOLE
LOT MORE.  I think it took me three or four days to get tomcat running jsps
and servlets, mainly because the guy in charge of our system had a JDK 1.3
running, and things weren't happy.  I don't know if he had done something
strange or what, but once I installed a JDK 1.4 and pointed tomcat at it, it
ran fine.  Mind you, I was also doing this while learning about JDKs, jsps,
servlets, and java, so I didn't put ALL of my effort into it.

And my background is "technical."  I spent the last two years as an
assistant fencing coach, but before that I spent a little bit of time using
excel and visual basic for applications (which has complete documentation,
might I add!  And may I also add, I hope to NEVER USE IT AGAIN.  I didn't
like VBA very much...:))  Then I started using Access and VBA, and then when
we wanted to take it online, I started learning Java, jsps, tomcat, etc.

And yes, every now and then I wish there were a better indexed, nicely
formatted set of documentation.  I dwell on that for a good 15 seconds, open
up google, search the archives, mess around trying things, ask questions,
and before long, whatever didn't work, does.

I think the vast majority of us are happy with this.  If not, please send
your self address stamped envelope to the following address for a full
refund:



Oh well, and least all that undergraduate work in Chemistry is paying
off...:)

In a whimsical mood,
Mike



- Original Message -
From: "Hamilton, Andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


You know what really bothers me about this whole thread:  Tomcat is free.
What right does anyone have to complain about free stuff?  That's like
complaining cause someone gave you free beer but it said Generic on the
label.  It might not go down as smoothly but the effect is the same.  I
setup Tomcat without problems in minutes.  But then again I read the docs.
It was a challenge to get through some of them but I managed to do it.  Me,
I only have 8 years of experience as a developer and systems admin.  All
that experience must be doing something to the guys brain like turning it to
mush.  I'm a serious advocate of open source in all its guises and I do
appreciate this list and the help I get from it.  Fortunately I don't have
to ask many questions because mostly I can search the archives and someone
has asked it before me and gotten the answer.  So for my part I want to
thank you all.

Regards,

Drew

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:33 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction skills.  Perhaps a Critical Thinking class
at the local community college would be beneficial.

BTW, if you'd like to pay me $1000 (same price as JRUN), I'll write the best
documentation you've ever seen, and even put it into a nice little book for
you.  But then, that would be proving how ridiculous your posts, reasoning,
and assumptions are, and I have a feeling you're not that dumb.

John

> -Original Message-----
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37

RE: I don?t understand the objective of this open list !

[Jim Urban]

> Why waste my time.  I'll vote with my feet and use something else.
> If developers aren't interested in making their software usable by
> writing clear documentation, I won't use it.

Remember, you get what you pay for.  You paid for nothing, you got nothing!
Don't go away mad, just go away (and stop bitching)!

Jim

-Original Message-
From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:31 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: I don?t understand the objective of this open list !

>The documentation sure does need some work in certain areas, but it
>is hardly in the sad state that you claim it is in.

Okay, let me give a specific example.  I will describe to you a
likely standard configuration for a server that would be used in a
typical commercial setting.  Prove tomcat can handle this.  Prove the
documentation is available in normal English.  I will also show you
absolute geek-speak in the documentation.

Typical Server Configuration: tomcat serving pages through apache on
port 80 for multiple (virtual) web sites on one web server.  How many
out there have this?  Yes, you can get tomcat up and running on port
8080 very quickly.  How often do you commerical software developers
type http://www.company.com:8080/foo.jsp when visiting commercial
sites?

Problems with the "documentation" (using the term liberally in this case):

1) First, no where on Jakarta's main site is it mentioned that some
type of connector is needed to have tomcat serve page through Apache.
I believe the connectors go by several names (mod_jk, mod_jk2,
mod_webapp, and Catalina being some).  None of these are mentioned or
are listed (there are certainly no links).

2) Lets say one wants to use a relatively new version of software -
say Apache 2.0 with mod_jk2.  There is some nice background info on
mod_jk2 at:

   http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2/doc/

Reading through that and links on that page is of little help.
However, there appear to be other useful links on that page.

Configuration info for mod_jk2 is at:

http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2/doc/configtce
x.html

This is in the second paragraph, "There is no need to use the jkjni
logic to use normal socket".  Why would one care about "jkjni"?  How
the hell is this even relevant to anything?

Now I could go on and on.  But what is the point.  It is just more
geek speak.  And I haven't even gotten to other situations: running
multiple instance of tomcat, having tomcat run on a different server,
clustering, etc...

Why waste my time.  I'll vote with my feet and use something else.
If developers aren't interested in making their software usable by
writing clear documentation, I won't use it.

Mike

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Not only is Tomcat a viable commercial solution, we're using a version of
Tomcat that is many months old and doing an SIGNIFICANT amount of business
with it.

The servers haven't been rebooted in more than 6 months.  Neither has
Tomcat, except for new installations (we run a dedicated Tomcat for each of
our clients in an Application Service Provider mode).

Seriously, you seem like an intelligent person.  You should really take a
couple of days to get the feel of a community (passively) before you jump in
and start pissing all over things you know nothing about.  All you do then
is piss off the very people who are more than willing to provide you with
extremely valuable help and guidance and support for free, and on top of
that you show your ignorance.

Imagine how much free help and support you could have gotten from the list
if you had simply subscribed, and over the course of a few days and a few
weeks ramped up your posting and questions (and maybe even helping others
out in return).  Support and help like that from a company like Macromedia,
IBM, Oracle, or Microsoft would cost in the tens and hundreds of thousands
of dollars if you bought support from them, but it's free here.  In
addition, in my opinion higher quality...the people on this list know their
sh*t...they aren't some 22-yr old intern sitting in a body shop somewhere
with a help-desk checklist that doesn't know the first thing about Tomcat or
why anyone would use it.

Alas, all for nought.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> >was a private message for the developers.  It seemed to be a blanket
> >complaint from an apparently annoyed person.
> >
> >>  I have been disappointed and frustrated by the  that
> >>  is called documentation.  I stopped trying to get tomcat
> >>  to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I looked into
> >>  it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> >
> >So what problems are YOU having?
> 
> I give a sample configuration of tomcat in my response to Peng.
> 
> >
> >>  I rate software on three important criteria: does it do what it is
> >>  intended, can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> >
> >I could show you messages from me over the past however long 
> I have been on
> >the 'net where I express a view that most Open Source 
> projects are written
> >by the cognoscenti for the cognoscenti with little concern 
> for real people.
> >Most of them get to a point where they satisfy the parochial 
> needs of their
> >developers, and then stagnate.
> >
> >Tomcat is not such a project.  It is the reference platform 
> for key Java
> >technologies.  As such, perhaps the developers are 
> prioritized more towards
> >developing a technical reference than end-user supporting 
> documentation.
> >
> 
> Then I may have made an error.  I have been telling my business 
> associates that tomcat is NOT a viable commercial server.  They 
> recently said I was wrong.  In looking through the Jakarta web site I 
> believe I saw the term "commercial quality" in regards to Tomcat.
> 
> Are you saying that for commercial applications, Tomcat should not be 
> considered?
> 
> Mike
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Jim Urban]

I don't see what your problem is.  I have installed Tomcat on our
development servers and developer's workstations.  I have installed it at
client sites.  I have attached it to Apache.  I have attached it to Apache
running SSL.  I have attached it to IIS.  I have attached it to IIS with
SSL.  It works great.  It's not rocket science, but it works.  It's more
like the Energizer Bunny; it just keeps on going and going.  Did you ever
stop to think the problem is not the software, but the person installing it?

PS:  The documentation was adequate for doing all these flavors of installs
(and I am NOT a web administrator).

Jim


-Original Message-
From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:37 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped
trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.

Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.

In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.

Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
(if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
available for free.

Mike



>  > -Original Message-
>>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
>>  To: Tomcat Users List
>>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>>
>>
>>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
>>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
>>  for tomcat.
>
>Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That is how things
>get done: someone DOES them.
>
>If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
>questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
>satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
>
>Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
>
>   --- Noel
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Hamilton, Andrew]

You know what really bothers me about this whole thread:  Tomcat is free.
What right does anyone have to complain about free stuff?  That's like
complaining cause someone gave you free beer but it said Generic on the
label.  It might not go down as smoothly but the effect is the same.  I
setup Tomcat without problems in minutes.  But then again I read the docs.
It was a challenge to get through some of them but I managed to do it.  Me,
I only have 8 years of experience as a developer and systems admin.  All
that experience must be doing something to the guys brain like turning it to
mush.  I'm a serious advocate of open source in all its guises and I do
appreciate this list and the help I get from it.  Fortunately I don't have
to ask many questions because mostly I can search the archives and someone
has asked it before me and gotten the answer.  So for my part I want to
thank you all.

Regards,

Drew

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:33 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.  

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction skills.  Perhaps a Critical Thinking class
at the local community college would be beneficial.

BTW, if you'd like to pay me $1000 (same price as JRUN), I'll write the best
documentation you've ever seen, and even put it into a nice little book for
you.  But then, that would be proving how ridiculous your posts, reasoning,
and assumptions are, and I have a feeling you're not that dumb.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta 
> developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed 
> dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and 
> frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped 
> trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I 
> looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> 
> Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of 
> building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of 
> pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate 
> software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended, 
> can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> 
> In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of 
> the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I 
> can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> 
> Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost 
> Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with 
> Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE 
> implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer 
> does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to 
> (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is 
> available for free.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> >  > -Original Message-
> >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objectiv

RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.  

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction skills.  Perhaps a Critical Thinking class
at the local community college would be beneficial.

BTW, if you'd like to pay me $1000 (same price as JRUN), I'll write the best
documentation you've ever seen, and even put it into a nice little book for
you.  But then, that would be proving how ridiculous your posts, reasoning,
and assumptions are, and I have a feeling you're not that dumb.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta 
> developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed 
> dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and 
> frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped 
> trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I 
> looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> 
> Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of 
> building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of 
> pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate 
> software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended, 
> can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> 
> In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of 
> the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I 
> can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> 
> Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost 
> Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with 
> Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE 
> implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer 
> does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to 
> (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is 
> available for free.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> >  > -Original Message-----
> >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> >>
> >>
> >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies 
> to Jakarta.
> >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> >>  for tomcat.
> >
> >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That 
> is how things
> >get done: someone DOES them.
> >
> >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
> >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
> >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> >
> >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail:
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

It's fun, though.  Their logic is so obviously flawed, sometimes I feel bad
not engaging them.  ;)

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Short, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:50 PM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> ;-)
> 
> John and others, 
> 
> In the future, don't even engage these whiners.  I, and I'm 
> sure others,
> very much appreciate the time you spend on this list.
> 
> Dave
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 09, 2002 2:30 PM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> 
> Extra bonus points for using "superfluous"!  What a great word.
> 
> John
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Short, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:21 PM
> > To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> > Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > This is open source and FREE software.  If you don't like it, 
> > don't use it.
> > If you're dissatisfied with Tomcat, go out and spend hundreds 
> > or thousands
> > of dollars and purchase a "Real" servlet container that has 
> all of the
> > documentation nicely bundled.  I figured Tomcat out by 
> > digging and posting
> > clear and concise questions to this list.  If you're not 
> > happy with doing it
> > that way, go elsewhere.
> > 
> > Stop cluttering up the list with superfluous mail.  There's 
> > enough traffic
> > on this list without this waste of time traffic.
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: December 09, 2002 2:05 PM
> > To: Tomcat Users List
> > Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
> > Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open 
> sourse - in 
> > the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
> > manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
> > building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > >I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
> > >
> > >It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound 
> > into a nice
> > >little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and 
> > you have to
> > read
> > >it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want 
> > everything handed to
> > >them.
> > >
> > >John
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

There was a post several weeks back from someone that was entitled "how to
contribute to the documentation in 7 easy steps" or seomthing like that, but
I forget who posted it, and unfortunately I can't find it in the archives at
the moment.  There was one earlier than that from Craig McClanahan on how to
contribute to the docs.

Craig's post is here:
http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/tomcat-users/2002-October/081222.htm
l

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Theodore A. Jencks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:26 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> I'm brand new to this list and have noticed the lack of good 
> documentation available.  However the docs that exist are 
> extremely helpful and I've found plenty of information on 
> configuring Tomcat.  Since this thread is getting so much 
> publicity I might as well restate my willingness to improve 
> upon the documentation that currently exists.  To say that 
> the developers of Tomcat owe us users anything would be 
> ridicules they have already done so much.  However I think 
> good documentation is key for the success of any software.  
> If you use Tomcat you should be concerned with it's future.  
> In short good documentation is a win for everyone, just take 
> PHP as an example.  One big reason that it's so popular is 
> because of a great documentation team.  Heck I'd go so far as 
> to say that's why Microsoft dominates the computer industry; 
> it's because they have the best docs in the industry hands 
> down.  I think open source developers realize this but often 
> don't have time to do anything about it.  Here is an 
> opportunity though as I've offered my services.  So if anyone 
> knows who I should contact about this I'm all ears.
> 
> Best regards,
> Theo
> 
> 
> ==
> Theodore A. Jencks-- DigitalFacet, Inc. --
> President P.O. Box 242
> Tel:  925-362-0015Alamo, CA
> Fax:  925-362-899594507
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.digitalfacet.com
> ==
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT} T.O. RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Simon Kelly]

Dear God,

Could everyone just stop the bickering, my inbox was so heavy this morning I
could have sworn it was turning into a black hole.

I've worked in engineering my whole life and there has been three phrases
that have always stood me on solid ground.  "Read the f***in manual", "If
you don't know the answer, ask" and "If someone helps you, it is only right
you help others".

I will say nothing on the subject of software, products, freeware, groups
etc but to say, choose what is right for YOUR needs.

Please, for the love of God, don't respond to this mail and lets all end
this thread right now.

Kindest regards

Simon.

PS
It may be pertinant to remember that the hands you are biting now, could be
connected to the arse you may have to kiss later!


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RE: [OT} T.O. RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Tref Gare]

That's my vote.
--

-Original Message-
From: micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, 10 December 2002 4:36 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: [OT} T.O. RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

Lord, let's stop this.  What is the point?  Who knows what this person 
means?  If they don't like Tomcat, fine.  I don't know why they are 
here.  But that is fine too.

At 08:28 PM 12/9/2002 +, you wrote:
>I also have a technical background, but not as big as yours. I have been
>programming in java por 3 months now. Even before I started programming
>I gave tomcat a try to see my options. I have to tell you that getting
>tomcat to run and work fine is trivial. That setting up  connection
>pooling is just a matter of following the instructions in jakarta's
>site, and that setting mod_jk to work, just following the example, took
>like 30 minutes... Now, i'm a linux user, i don't know if it's as easy
>or not in windows, but if you can't get tomcat running with minimal
>effort, then there has to be a problem in your setop that is beyont
>tomcat.
>
>On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 00:37, Mike DiChiappari wrote:
> > Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
> > developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
> > dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
> > frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped
> > trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
> > looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> >
> > Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
> > building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
> > pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
> > software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
> > can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> >
> > In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
> > the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
> > can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> >
> > Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
> > Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
> > Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
> > implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
> > does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
> > (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
> > available for free.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > >  > -Original Message-
> > >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> > >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> > >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
> > >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> > >>  for tomcat.
> > >
> > >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That is how things
> > >get done: someone DOES them.
> > >
> > >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
> > >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
> > >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> > >
> > >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> > >
> > > --- Noel
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, 
> e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, 
> e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
>
>
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Re: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !

[micael]

I think that you may find, from my experience, that you are going to have 
to pay more than a "little" for "accountability" to get what you are asking 
for here.  What is your problem that is Tomcat's fault anyway?

At 09:43 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Mark,

Thank you for your candid response.  I believe I understand the point of 
Jakarta now.

We're happy not to have you use the software.  If you
read the documentation for other application servers,
you'll quickly find that there is an equal amount of
'geek' speak.


Since you say "we're" I assume you have had your hand in tomcat 
development.  If this is so, then I believe it is true that in order to be 
able to successfully use tomcat, one must be involved in it.  I am glad 
that is not true about other things in life.  For example, I can drive a 
car, but can't (and have no desire to) build or fix one.


Sad to say, but at some point you need to understand
the technology and know what you are doing in order to
accomplish a reasonably complex configuration.


I understand J2EE methodology, design standards, how to design, build, 
develop and code in Java.  I can figure out how to setup Weblogic, 
iPlanet, and JRun.  I guess I still am not savy enough to use tomcat.


Currently, I run Tomcat 4.12 and Apache 2.043 on a
Windows/2000 Pro development box with multiple virtual
hosts.


That's one of you (and I'm assuming you're a developer of tomcat)./



Complaining about what isn't is in general not in
anyone's best interest.  Rather than complain, do.  If
you don't wish to do, then don't complain.

I understand it if your management has asked you to
perform some application build on Tomcat, and your
experience has only been with vendor hand-holding.
It's time to start learning the basics, and not
vendor-speak.

This I think is the major cause of IT issues today.
People implement vendor solutions without
understanding the underlying technology used to meet
the business requirements.  This leads to people being
familiar with vendor implementations, and not the
underlying standards.

What happens when a vendor goes out of business?  What
happens when the vendor decides not to support your
favorite feature?  What happens when the vendor
decides not to implement your desired feature.

Sure they may lose your business, but it's hardly the
only business that they have.  However, what you've
lost is all the investment in vendor technology, since
you've not invested in the fundamentals underlying
that technology.

In short, you either change your business practices to
suit the technology that past [bad] decisions have
constrained you to, or you throw away a lot of
investment.


First of all, this thread was started by someone who could get no support 
and was complaining.  I'll leave it up to you to go through the mail 
archive to find the original poster (how do you like being referred to the 
mail archives).  At least with a vendor I have someone to yell at.  And 
I've seen that technique work.

Secondly, I am not so full of myself to take responsibility for an entire 
app server.  Yes, it is worth it to pay a few bucks to a company - just 
for the accountability.  When your medical software can not meet FDA 
guidelines or you get sued because of a bug in your app server - good 
luck.   I feel like I can depend on my app server vendor more than whoever 
is Jakarta.

Third, I'm not worried about my J2EE vendor going out of business. The 
entire point of J2EE is that it is a portable platform.  I've already 
ported between real J2EE app servers with little trouble.

Fourth, I've had success with much of the open source and Linux 
software.  We run Redhat with sendmail, Apache with PHP (Horde and IMP), 
and have built solutions with Xerces/Xalan.  My main complaint is with 
Jakarta/tomcat.  It really is awful.

Even though I disagree with you on just about every point, I am going to 
take your invitation.  Bye bye tomcat.

Mike



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[OT} T.O. RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[micael]

Lord, let's stop this.  What is the point?  Who knows what this person 
means?  If they don't like Tomcat, fine.  I don't know why they are 
here.  But that is fine too.

At 08:28 PM 12/9/2002 +, you wrote:
I also have a technical background, but not as big as yours. I have been
programming in java por 3 months now. Even before I started programming
I gave tomcat a try to see my options. I have to tell you that getting
tomcat to run and work fine is trivial. That setting up  connection
pooling is just a matter of following the instructions in jakarta's
site, and that setting mod_jk to work, just following the example, took
like 30 minutes... Now, i'm a linux user, i don't know if it's as easy
or not in windows, but if you can't get tomcat running with minimal
effort, then there has to be a problem in your setop that is beyont
tomcat.

On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 00:37, Mike DiChiappari wrote:
> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
> developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
> dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
> frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped
> trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
> looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
>
> Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
> building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
> pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
> software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
> can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
>
> In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
> the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
> can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
>
> Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
> Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
> Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
> implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
> does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
> (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
> available for free.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> >  > -Original Message-
> >>  From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> >>
> >>
> >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
> >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> >>  for tomcat.
> >
> >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That is how things
> >get done: someone DOES them.
> >
> >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
> >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
> >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> >
> >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >--
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>
>
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Here is an opportunity though as I've offered my services.  So if anyone
> knows who I should contact about this I'm all ears.

Write the docs.  Use the existing XML sources to guide you, and submit new
ones.  Talk to John Turner, as well, who has a set of docs (IIRC).

ref: http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-tomcat-site/xdocs/

--- Noel


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RE: I don?t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Then I may have made an error.  I have been telling my business
> associates that tomcat is NOT a viable commercial server.  They
> recently said I was wrong.  In looking through the Jakarta web site I
> believe I saw the term "commercial quality" in regards to Tomcat.

The code is commercial quality.  The documentation may leave something to be
desired for the novice end user, but it sounds as if you didn't find any of
the documentation that does exist.

> 1) First, no where on Jakarta's main site is it mentioned that some
> type of connector is needed to have tomcat serve page through Apache.
> I believe the connectors go by several names (mod_jk, mod_jk2,
> mod_webapp, and Catalina being some).  None of these are mentioned or
> are listed (there are certainly no links).

There are pages and pages of documentation.  Where did you look?  Didn't you
find:

   http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/index.html
   http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/config/connectors.html
   http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/jk2/index.html

and a host of other sections?  Or were you looking elsewhere on the site?

--- Noel


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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[David Boyer]

>From: "Mike DiChiappari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Tomcat Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:37 PM
>Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
>
>Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
>developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
>dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
>frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped
>trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
>looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.

Amazingly, many of us using the same Tomcat binaries and documentation have
had little or no trouble doing all kinds of things with Tomcat. Have you
considered that the lowest common denominator in your problems could be you?
Granted, my first impression was that Tomcat had too high of a learning
curve. However, after actually looking at the examples, the documentation,
and experimenting with it, I've actually found it fairly straightforward.
The difference is that I work through whatever problems I encounter rather
than citing the software as the problem. In the process, I'm learning the
"in's and out's" of Tomcat and finding it's much simpler than I initial
believed. That doesn't mean everything I try works the first time, but
that's the reality of any app server.

>Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
>building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
>pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
>software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
>can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
>
>In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
>the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
>can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.

I think you're grading Tomcat on criteria that aren't necessarily
applicable. Tomcat is the servlet container that is the official reference
implementation for the Servlet/JSP spec. It's the proof-of-concept that the
specs are implementable. I believe there is a test suite that is used to
verify this; it's not based on whether or not you personally can tell if it
does this.

On the other hand, I'd still disagree with all three of your assessments. I
think that demonstrates that we've all had varying degrees of difficulty or
ease in working with the same software and documentation. While some may
find the documentation lacking, others might find it overkill.

>Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
>Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
>Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
>implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
>does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
>(if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
>available for free.
>
>Mike

Sun also has released a free J2EE server (Sun ONE Platform Edition) which
I've spent some significant time with since it was released early-access. It
has documentation and a nice administrative interface, etc. However, this
does not necessarily equate to strong usability. I could not get the ISAPI
filter to work with Sun ONE for anything, but in Tomcat it took me about
five minutes. I've also used Resin and JRun, and they each have their
strengths and weaknesses. They're all subject to the same constraints as
about any other app server: they can't think or learn for you.


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Re: I don¥t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

Mark,

Thank you for your candid response.  I believe I understand the point 
of Jakarta now.

We're happy not to have you use the software.  If you
read the documentation for other application servers,
you'll quickly find that there is an equal amount of
'geek' speak.


Since you say "we're" I assume you have had your hand in tomcat 
development.  If this is so, then I believe it is true that in order 
to be able to successfully use tomcat, one must be involved in it.  I 
am glad that is not true about other things in life.  For example, I 
can drive a car, but can't (and have no desire to) build or fix one.


Sad to say, but at some point you need to understand
the technology and know what you are doing in order to
accomplish a reasonably complex configuration.


I understand J2EE methodology, design standards, how to design, 
build, develop and code in Java.  I can figure out how to setup 
Weblogic, iPlanet, and JRun.  I guess I still am not savy enough to 
use tomcat.


Currently, I run Tomcat 4.12 and Apache 2.043 on a
Windows/2000 Pro development box with multiple virtual
hosts.


That's one of you (and I'm assuming you're a developer of tomcat)./



Complaining about what isn't is in general not in
anyone's best interest.  Rather than complain, do.  If
you don't wish to do, then don't complain.

I understand it if your management has asked you to
perform some application build on Tomcat, and your
experience has only been with vendor hand-holding.
It's time to start learning the basics, and not
vendor-speak.

This I think is the major cause of IT issues today.
People implement vendor solutions without
understanding the underlying technology used to meet
the business requirements.  This leads to people being
familiar with vendor implementations, and not the
underlying standards.

What happens when a vendor goes out of business?  What
happens when the vendor decides not to support your
favorite feature?  What happens when the vendor
decides not to implement your desired feature.

Sure they may lose your business, but it's hardly the
only business that they have.  However, what you've
lost is all the investment in vendor technology, since
you've not invested in the fundamentals underlying
that technology.

In short, you either change your business practices to
suit the technology that past [bad] decisions have
constrained you to, or you throw away a lot of
investment.


First of all, this thread was started by someone who could get no 
support and was complaining.  I'll leave it up to you to go through 
the mail archive to find the original poster (how do you like being 
referred to the mail archives).  At least with a vendor I have 
someone to yell at.  And I've seen that technique work.

Secondly, I am not so full of myself to take responsibility for an 
entire app server.  Yes, it is worth it to pay a few bucks to a 
company - just for the accountability.  When your medical software 
can not meet FDA guidelines or you get sued because of a bug in your 
app server - good luck.   I feel like I can depend on my app server 
vendor more than whoever is Jakarta.

Third, I'm not worried about my J2EE vendor going out of business. 
The entire point of J2EE is that it is a portable platform.  I've 
already ported between real J2EE app servers with little trouble.

Fourth, I've had success with much of the open source and Linux 
software.  We run Redhat with sendmail, Apache with PHP (Horde and 
IMP), and have built solutions with Xerces/Xalan.  My main complaint 
is with Jakarta/tomcat.  It really is awful.

Even though I disagree with you on just about every point, I am going 
to take your invitation.  Bye bye tomcat.

Mike



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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Peng Tuck Kwok]

Mike DiChiappari wrote:

The documentation sure does need some work in certain areas, but it is 
hardly in the sad state that you claim it is in.
Ok so I manage to get you to describe some of the problems you are 
having. I consider that an improvement from all the other mails I have 
seen so far :)



Okay, let me give a specific example.  I will describe to you a likely 
standard configuration for a server that would be used in a typical 
commercial setting.  Prove tomcat can handle this.  Prove the 
documentation is available in normal English.  I will also show you 
absolute geek-speak in the documentation.

Typical Server Configuration: tomcat serving pages through apache on 
port 80 for multiple (virtual) web sites on one web server.  How many 
out there have this?  Yes, you can get tomcat up and running on port 
8080 very quickly.  How often do you commerical software developers type 
http://www.company.com:8080/foo.jsp when visiting commercial sites?

Problems with the "documentation" (using the term liberally in this case):

1) First, no where on Jakarta's main site is it mentioned that some type 
of connector is needed to have tomcat serve page through Apache. I 
believe the connectors go by several names (mod_jk, mod_jk2, mod_webapp, 
and Catalina being some).  None of these are mentioned or are listed 
(there are certainly no links).

I believe you are trying your best to look for information but you have 
been looking in the wrong area. You said you were looking at the 
Jakarta's main website. It's a repository for jakarta projects. mod_jk2 
is under the  tomcat project. You said there are absolutely no links yet 
you list them below ? Huh ?


Now I could go on and on.  But what is the point.  It is just more geek 
speak.  
It is a fairly technical product and some patience is required but that 
is true of most app servers in 'commercial' quality products. Take the 
Sun One App server for instance. The amount of documentation for that is 
mind boggling. I managed to get my app working on it but it was quite 
difficult. I actually found the solution in one of the examples that 
they gave but the volumnious documentation makes it difficult to find 
what you want, although they have done their best to organize it.

And I haven't even gotten to other situations: running multiple 
instance of tomcat, having tomcat run on a different server,
What's so difficult about that? To run mutliple instances just make sure 
the ports are different.

clustering, 
etc...
There's load balancing but to do that you need to use . mod_jk2.



There's no compulsion or requirement for you to use tomcat. I would on
ocassion use Sun One App server as it is actually quite good.
Oh yeah, if memory serves, John Turner has written a document about 
getting Tomcat & apache to work together. If you'd look in the archive 
you might find the link to his page or just ask him .

Why waste my time.  I'll vote with my feet and use something else. 
If developers aren't interested in making their software usable by writing 
clear documentation, I won't use it.

Mike

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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mark Eggers]

Mike,

We're happy not to have you use the software.  If you
read the documentation for other application servers,
you'll quickly find that there is an equal amount of
'geek' speak.

Sad to say, but at some point you need to understand
the technology and know what you are doing in order to
accomplish a reasonably complex configuration.

Currently, I run Tomcat 4.12 and Apache 2.043 on a
Windows/2000 Pro development box with multiple virtual
hosts.

This poor beleagured box also supports mod_perl,
mod_php, cocoon (2.1 - reasonably late CVS release),
Xindice (1.1 - reasonably late CVS release), jetspeed
(reasonably late CVS release), postgresql, mysql, cvs
server, soon to have ColdFusion, and a partridge in a
pear tree (sorry - obligatory seasonal greating).

I also switch occaisionally to IIS 5.0 (mostly to
torture myself - but also to check interoperability). 
I will run the same mixture on Solaris and Linux (sans
IIS 5.0) when the machines arrive.

We've covered the ground, have demonstrated where the
documentation is, have provided several commercial
books for the software, and pointers to resources
available on the Internet.

What there isn't for the Apache products is a company
to rant and rave at.  In a way that's a good thing,
since it frees the developers to do what they do best
- develop leading edge software.

Us user types get the fruit of that development effort
at a cost - we have to learn about the technology.  If
we find the technology particularly useful, then we
contribute back to the effort.  Some of us write bug
fixes, others of us write documentation, and others of
us answer what we can on the mailing list.

Complaining about what isn't is in general not in
anyone's best interest.  Rather than complain, do.  If
you don't wish to do, then don't complain.

I understand it if your management has asked you to
perform some application build on Tomcat, and your
experience has only been with vendor hand-holding. 
It's time to start learning the basics, and not
vendor-speak.

This I think is the major cause of IT issues today. 
People implement vendor solutions without
understanding the underlying technology used to meet
the business requirements.  This leads to people being
familiar with vendor implementations, and not the
underlying standards.

What happens when a vendor goes out of business?  What
happens when the vendor decides not to support your
favorite feature?  What happens when the vendor
decides not to implement your desired feature.

Sure they may lose your business, but it's hardly the
only business that they have.  However, what you've
lost is all the investment in vendor technology, since
you've not invested in the fundamentals underlying
that technology.

In short, you either change your business practices to
suit the technology that past [bad] decisions have
constrained you to, or you throw away a lot of
investment.

Or, you take the third road, which is learn what
you're doing with the technology, how it works, and
why [the business reasons] you're doing it.

Short answer - grab the rope and pull, or go find
another effort.

/mde/

just my two cents . . . .

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

was a private message for the developers.  It seemed to be a blanket
complaint from an apparently annoyed person.


 I have been disappointed and frustrated by the  that
 is called documentation.  I stopped trying to get tomcat
 to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I looked into
 it again, and noticed little to no improvement.


So what problems are YOU having?


I give a sample configuration of tomcat in my response to Peng.




 I rate software on three important criteria: does it do what it is
 intended, can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.


I could show you messages from me over the past however long I have been on
the 'net where I express a view that most Open Source projects are written
by the cognoscenti for the cognoscenti with little concern for real people.
Most of them get to a point where they satisfy the parochial needs of their
developers, and then stagnate.

Tomcat is not such a project.  It is the reference platform for key Java
technologies.  As such, perhaps the developers are prioritized more towards
developing a technical reference than end-user supporting documentation.



Then I may have made an error.  I have been telling my business 
associates that tomcat is NOT a viable commercial server.  They 
recently said I was wrong.  In looking through the Jakarta web site I 
believe I saw the term "commercial quality" in regards to Tomcat.

Are you saying that for commercial applications, Tomcat should not be 
considered?

Mike

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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

The documentation sure does need some work in certain areas, but it 
is hardly in the sad state that you claim it is in.

Okay, let me give a specific example.  I will describe to you a 
likely standard configuration for a server that would be used in a 
typical commercial setting.  Prove tomcat can handle this.  Prove the 
documentation is available in normal English.  I will also show you 
absolute geek-speak in the documentation.

Typical Server Configuration: tomcat serving pages through apache on 
port 80 for multiple (virtual) web sites on one web server.  How many 
out there have this?  Yes, you can get tomcat up and running on port 
8080 very quickly.  How often do you commerical software developers 
type http://www.company.com:8080/foo.jsp when visiting commercial 
sites?

Problems with the "documentation" (using the term liberally in this case):

1) First, no where on Jakarta's main site is it mentioned that some 
type of connector is needed to have tomcat serve page through Apache. 
I believe the connectors go by several names (mod_jk, mod_jk2, 
mod_webapp, and Catalina being some).  None of these are mentioned or 
are listed (there are certainly no links).

2) Lets say one wants to use a relatively new version of software - 
say Apache 2.0 with mod_jk2.  There is some nice background info on 
mod_jk2 at:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2/doc/

Reading through that and links on that page is of little help. 
However, there appear to be other useful links on that page.

Configuration info for mod_jk2 is at:

http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk2/doc/configtcex.html

This is in the second paragraph, "There is no need to use the jkjni 
logic to use normal socket".  Why would one care about "jkjni"?  How 
the hell is this even relevant to anything?

Now I could go on and on.  But what is the point.  It is just more 
geek speak.  And I haven't even gotten to other situations: running 
multiple instance of tomcat, having tomcat run on a different server, 
clustering, etc...

Why waste my time.  I'll vote with my feet and use something else. 
If developers aren't interested in making their software usable by 
writing clear documentation, I won't use it.

Mike

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
> developer).

I didn't realize that:

>>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
>>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
>>  for tomcat.

was a private message for the developers.  It seemed to be a blanket
complaint from an apparently annoyed person.

> I have been disappointed and frustrated by the  that
> is called documentation.  I stopped trying to get tomcat
> to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I looked into
> it again, and noticed little to no improvement.

So what problems are YOU having?

> I rate software on three important criteria: does it do what it is
> intended, can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.

I could show you messages from me over the past however long I have been on
the 'net where I express a view that most Open Source projects are written
by the cognoscenti for the cognoscenti with little concern for real people.
Most of them get to a point where they satisfy the parochial needs of their
developers, and then stagnate.

Tomcat is not such a project.  It is the reference platform for key Java
technologies.  As such, perhaps the developers are prioritized more towards
developing a technical reference than end-user supporting documentation.

None of the issues I've had with Tomcat, so far, are basic installation
issues.  A year ago, I agree, the situation with connectors was chaotic at
best.  I have an entire mail folder devoted solely to capturing information
about connectors.

> I can't get [tomcat] to work with a reasonable amount of effort.

Took me a few minutes from scratch.  YMMV.  What ARE you trying to do?
Where are you running into issues?  Tomcat standalone, tomcat with apache,
tomcat with a data source?

--- Noel


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mark]

At 12/9/2002 07:37 PM, you wrote:

Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta 
developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed 
dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and frustrated 
by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped trying to get tomcat 
to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I looked into it again, and 
noticed little to no improvement.

Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of building 
commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of pie-in-the-sky 
ideals in terms of software development.  I rate software on three 
important criteria: does it do what it is intended, can it be used easily, 
and is it maintainable.

In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of the 
above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I can't get 
it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.

Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost Java 
solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with Macromedia in 
any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE implementation (JSP, 
servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer does all the stuff that 
mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to (if anyone could get them to 
work).  A development version is available for free.

Mike

I too have been writing commercial software for over twenty years.  I on 
the other hand have been able to use Tomcat in the company I work for with 
great success.  We recently used it to replace an extremely expensive 
commercial appserver that had inferior performance to Tomcat, but with a 
superior number of headaches.  Using Tomcat: users are pleased. developers 
are pleased. director is pleased. CFO is pleased.  None of the above care 
about the quality of Tomcat's documentation.  The only entity not pleased 
is the appserver vendor whose license we're not renewing.

Our company has a very young, inexperienced appserver administrator who had 
Tomcat up an running in a matter of minutes (literally) without a CD 
library of professionally drafted set of documentation.  Instead of 
complaining, why not post the specific nature of your problems and let 
people here help you?


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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Peng Tuck Kwok]

The documentation sure does need some work in certain areas, but it is 
hardly in the sad state that you claim it is in.





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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
frustrated by the  that is called documentation.  I stopped
trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.

Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.

In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.

Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
(if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
available for free.

Mike




 > -Original Message-

 From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


 I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
 It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
 for tomcat.


Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That is how things
get done: someone DOES them.

If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
satisfaction, and using that as your source material.

Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?

	--- Noel


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Re: RE: RE: I don?t understand the objective of this open list !

[David Brown]

Noel J. Bergman writes: 

I want proper user level documentation.


If you are unsatisfied with the documentation: 

  1) contribute some time to help
  2) contribute some $ to help
  3) wait for someone else to do 1 or 2
  4) spend even MORE money and buy IBM WebSphere.
 Basically the same code, more docs, LOTS more money. 

Insulting people probably is the least effective thing you can do. 

	--- Noel 

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Or even more money than Noel's #4: oracle 9i Application Server + the really 
hefty hardware u will need to run it + the oracle meta-link email and phone 
support to get it installed. Or, to avoid installation, you can call Dell 
about the oracle 9iAS in a box solution they 
sell($). And underlying the whole shebang is 
Apache/jserv,tomcat,orion j2ee container (but, wait a minut... this is all 
open source techonology). david.

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RE: RE: I don?t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I want proper user level documentation.

If you are unsatisfied with the documentation:

  1) contribute some time to help
  2) contribute some $ to help
  3) wait for someone else to do 1 or 2
  4) spend even MORE money and buy IBM WebSphere.
 Basically the same code, more docs, LOTS more money.

Insulting people probably is the least effective thing you can do.

--- Noel

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
>
> I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
> It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> for tomcat.

Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That is how things
get done: someone DOES them.

If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
satisfaction, and using that as your source material.

Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?

--- Noel


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[micael]

What questions are you talking about?

At 06:51 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:

> Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very dificult because:
> 1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
> 2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the
install.

I installed 4.1.12 in the car on my laptop.  Took me all of a few minutes,
and was a lot less boring than watching the road.  I don't recall anything
even remotely resembling an issue installing Tomcat standalone.

--- Noel

[For the horrified, I wasn't the one driving at the time ;-)]


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Micael

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Noel J. Bergman]

> Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very dificult because:
> 1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
> 2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the
install.

I installed 4.1.12 in the car on my laptop.  Took me all of a few minutes,
and was a lot less boring than watching the road.  I don't recall anything
even remotely resembling an issue installing Tomcat standalone.

--- Noel

[For the horrified, I wasn't the one driving at the time ;-)]


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Theodore A. Jencks]

I'm brand new to this list and have noticed the lack of good documentation available.  
However the docs that exist are extremely helpful and I've found plenty of information 
on configuring Tomcat.  Since this thread is getting so much publicity I might as well 
restate my willingness to improve upon the documentation that currently exists.  To 
say that the developers of Tomcat owe us users anything would be ridicules they have 
already done so much.  However I think good documentation is key for the success of 
any software.  If you use Tomcat you should be concerned with it's future.  In short 
good documentation is a win for everyone, just take PHP as an example.  One big reason 
that it's so popular is because of a great documentation team.  Heck I'd go so far as 
to say that's why Microsoft dominates the computer industry; it's because they have 
the best docs in the industry hands down.  I think open source developers realize this 
but often don't have time to do anything about it.  Here is an opportunity though as 
I've offered my services.  So if anyone knows who I should contact about this I'm all 
ears.

Best regards,
Theo


==
Theodore A. Jencks-- DigitalFacet, Inc. --
President P.O. Box 242
Tel:  925-362-0015Alamo, CA
Fax:  925-362-899594507
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.digitalfacet.com
==




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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Short, Dave]

;-)

John and others, 

In the future, don't even engage these whiners.  I, and I'm sure others,
very much appreciate the time you spend on this list.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: December 09, 2002 2:30 PM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



Extra bonus points for using "superfluous"!  What a great word.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Short, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:21 PM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> This is open source and FREE software.  If you don't like it, 
> don't use it.
> If you're dissatisfied with Tomcat, go out and spend hundreds 
> or thousands
> of dollars and purchase a "Real" servlet container that has all of the
> documentation nicely bundled.  I figured Tomcat out by 
> digging and posting
> clear and concise questions to this list.  If you're not 
> happy with doing it
> that way, go elsewhere.
> 
> Stop cluttering up the list with superfluous mail.  There's 
> enough traffic
> on this list without this waste of time traffic.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 09, 2002 2:05 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
> Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open sourse - in 
> the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
> manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
> building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> >I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
> >
> >It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound 
> into a nice
> >little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and 
> you have to
> read
> >it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want 
> everything handed to
> >them.
> >
> >John
> >
> 
> --
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Extra bonus points for using "superfluous"!  What a great word.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Short, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:21 PM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> This is open source and FREE software.  If you don't like it, 
> don't use it.
> If you're dissatisfied with Tomcat, go out and spend hundreds 
> or thousands
> of dollars and purchase a "Real" servlet container that has all of the
> documentation nicely bundled.  I figured Tomcat out by 
> digging and posting
> clear and concise questions to this list.  If you're not 
> happy with doing it
> that way, go elsewhere.
> 
> Stop cluttering up the list with superfluous mail.  There's 
> enough traffic
> on this list without this waste of time traffic.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 09, 2002 2:05 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
> Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open sourse - in 
> the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
> manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
> building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> >I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
> >
> >It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound 
> into a nice
> >little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and 
> you have to
> read
> >it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want 
> everything handed to
> >them.
> >
> >John
> >
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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RE: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Well, Mike, you're an ass.  Here's how you use Tomcat:

1. download and install JDK from Sun (it's free, the install is a couple of
clicks).
2. download the binary install of Tomcat.
3. extract the binary install of Tomcat to a location on your drive.
4. set JAVA_HOME as an environment variable to the location of the JDK.
5. set CATALINA_HOME as an environment variable to the location of Tomcat
(#3 above).
6. Start Tomcat using CATALINA_HOME/bin/startup.bat or
CATALINA_HOME/bin/startup.sh depending on your OS.
7. Access Tomcat's examples at http://localhost:8080

All of that is in the documentation.  Did you read it?  I did, and it's
"user level".

Then, since users of Tomcat are developers (you have to write your JSP and
servlets, right?), the next step would be the user level documentation
called  THE APPLICATION DEVELOPER'S GUIDE, which is found right here
with all of the other documentation:

http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/appdev/index.html

So, you've got:

1) easy install with no compilation from source necessary using binary files
provided for free
2) a full suite of included examples, both JSP and servlet, from which to
use as  EXAMPLES of what to do
3) an application development guide that explains where to put things and
why you should put them there.

I can't imagine what else you would want.  Add in an O'Reilly book like
Bergsten's JavaServer Pages, and you're golden.  You're forgetting that
Tomcat is an application that serves OTHER APPLICATIONS.  Thos other
applications have to be written...they don't appear by magic.  But then you
wouldn't have anything to rant about, would you?

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:11 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> David,
> 
> You are a perfect case in point.  I want to use tomcat, but I am not 
> a geek.  I want proper user level documentation.  I should not have 
> to know about how a damn java app server works internally (nor how to 
> build it) in order to setup one up and use it.
> 
> Is the point of Jarkata to keep geeks happily typing away or to 
> provide something useful?  Software is not useful if you can't 
> explain how to use it properly.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> >Hello Mike, John is right. i subscribe to 6 technical mailing lists. 
> >that's a lot of traffic but i can handle suscribing to this many 
> >lists because i learned how to build my own email server running on 
> >a fast linux box and i learned how to do most of this on a mailing 
> >list. if u think tc-user is bad u should venture into installing a 
> >j2ee server like jboss or the oracle 9i application server and get 
> >on those lists and try to get some help. and, not to mention the 
> >beast mother of all mailing lists: QMAIL. try installing qmail w/o 
> >help. then when u give up trying to install qmail by urself 
> >subscribe to the qmail users list and ask a flimsy question and hope 
> >someone like charles cazabon reponds. good luck, david.
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
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Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mark Eggers]

Mike,

Here is information from a cursory search on Amazon.

Tomcat Kick Start
by Martin Bond, Debbie Law (Paperback)
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price:   $34.99
Buy new:   $24.49
Used & new from $19.95

Mastering Tomcat Development
by Peter Harrison, Ian McFarland (Paperback)
Avg. Customer Rating: 5.0 out of 5 stars
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price:   $45.00
Buy new:   $31.50
Used & new from $28.20

MySQL and JSP Web Applications: Data-Driven
Programming Using Tomcat and MySQL
by James Turner (Paperback)
Avg. Customer Rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price:   $39.99
Buy new:   $27.99
Used & new from $24.93

Apache Jakarta-Tomcat
by James Goodwill (Paperback)
Avg. Customer Rating: 3.3 out of 5 stars
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price:   $34.95
Buy new:   $24.47
Used & new from $19.00

As to your question about whether or not this software
is just to keep 'geeks' happy . . . . Tomcat and
Struts are used in many commercial applications,
including commercial application servers.  I'm sure if
I spent time poking around the innards of application
servers I would find more evidence of open source
software.

/mde/

just my two cents . . . .

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Short, Dave]

This is open source and FREE software.  If you don't like it, don't use it.
If you're dissatisfied with Tomcat, go out and spend hundreds or thousands
of dollars and purchase a "Real" servlet container that has all of the
documentation nicely bundled.  I figured Tomcat out by digging and posting
clear and concise questions to this list.  If you're not happy with doing it
that way, go elsewhere.

Stop cluttering up the list with superfluous mail.  There's enough traffic
on this list without this waste of time traffic.

-Original Message-
From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: December 09, 2002 2:05 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open sourse - in 
the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).

Mike


>I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
>
>It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
>little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to
read
>it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
>them.
>
>John
>

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RE: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Tim Moore]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:11 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> David,
> 
> You are a perfect case in point.  I want to use tomcat, but I am not 
> a geek.  I want proper user level documentation.  I should not have 
> to know about how a damn java app server works internally (nor how to 
> build it) in order to setup one up and use it.

So buy a commercial app server with commercial support.  Or hire a consultant that 
knows Tomcat.  There are lots of productive things you could do to get an app server 
working, but complaining on the mailing list about how sucky Tomcat is probably won't.

> Is the point of Jarkata to keep geeks happily typing away or to 
> provide something useful?  Software is not useful if you can't 
> explain how to use it properly.

I believe the point originally was to provide reference implementation code for the 
servlet spec that could be used as an example or basis for commercial app servers.  
But plenty of people have used it successfully as a production standalone app server, 
so that's where it is today.  YMMV.

-- 
Tim Moore / Blackboard Inc. / Software Engineer
1899 L Street, NW / 5th Floor / Washington, DC 20036
Phone 202-463-4860 ext. 258 / Fax 202-463-4863


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Shapira, Yoav]

Hi,
I agree with Mr. Turner is right (as is usually the case ;)).  To add to his comments: 
what's preventing you from writing some documentation?  As you know, tomcat is an 
open-source project.  No one is getting paid to work on it.  Maybe you could write a 
great book on tomcat?  

Or perhaps, before sending a blatantly wrong email that's unlikely to generate many 
positive comments, much less to get any of the developers to write documentation, you 
should do some research:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1861007736/qid=1039471948/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-6211655-4096158?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893115364/qid=1039472075/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/102-6211655-4096158?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.0-doc/
http://www.jguru.com/faq/Tomcat
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&r=1&w=2

And many others if you search google or other search engines.

Does the existing documentation completely and clearly cover every possible use case?  
No.  Is it all readily accessible and easy to digest? No.  No one claims that it is.

It would be more constructive if you at least stated specifically what was missing in 
order to answer your questions.  

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:48 PM
>To: 'Tomcat Users List'
>Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
>
>I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
>
>It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
>little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to
>read
>it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
>them.
>
>John
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
>> To: Tomcat Users List
>> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>>
>>
>> I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
>> It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
>> for tomcat.  Of course, nobody can answer your questions.  The
>> purpose of Jakarta is not to build useful software for "the rest of
>> us".   It is to keep geeks happy, programming something (that may or
>> may not be of use).  Documentation is only supplied for software when
>> the builders of it are serious about wanting it to be used.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> >Well, you have lots of answers now.
>> >
>> >At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
>> >>found help.
>> >>I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
>> >>damages about
>> >>other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
>> >>Thank´s for NOTHING.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >
>> >Micael
>> >
>>
>> --
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>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

That's the wonderful thing about open source.  It's a volunteer effort.  If
you're using the software, and you don't like how things are done, you can
chip in and make a difference.

If you're using the software, and you don't like how things are done, and
you don't chip in to help out, you can basically shut your cakehole, because
you're forgetting that it's a volunteer effort, and completely free.  It's
also a no-win situation in most cases...people are screaming for the next
latest greatest feature (for free, I might add), so the developers spend
their time creating the feature instead of documenting the things they've
already written.  But then people start screaming about the documentation.
Open source dev teams typically can't win, so what's their incentive for
pleasing you instead of pleasing themselves?

BTW, software written for "life and death situations" typically costs
millions of dollars to produce, and even then it's possible that it has
bugs.  As soon as you're willing to contribute millions of dollars to any or
all of the Jakarta projects, I'm sure the teams will do everything in their
power to make sure their software tucks you in at night and guarantees you
and yours are safe, warm, and content.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:05 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
> Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open sourse - in 
> the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
> manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
> building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> >I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.
> >
> >It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound 
> into a nice
> >little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and 
> you have to read
> >it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want 
> everything handed to
> >them.
> >
> >John
> >
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

David,

You are a perfect case in point.  I want to use tomcat, but I am not 
a geek.  I want proper user level documentation.  I should not have 
to know about how a damn java app server works internally (nor how to 
build it) in order to setup one up and use it.

Is the point of Jarkata to keep geeks happily typing away or to 
provide something useful?  Software is not useful if you can't 
explain how to use it properly.

Mike


Hello Mike, John is right. i subscribe to 6 technical mailing lists. 
that's a lot of traffic but i can handle suscribing to this many 
lists because i learned how to build my own email server running on 
a fast linux box and i learned how to do most of this on a mailing 
list. if u think tc-user is bad u should venture into installing a 
j2ee server like jboss or the oracle 9i application server and get 
on those lists and try to get some help. and, not to mention the 
beast mother of all mailing lists: QMAIL. try installing qmail w/o 
help. then when u give up trying to install qmail by urself 
subscribe to the qmail users list and ask a flimsy question and hope 
someone like charles cazabon reponds. good luck, david.

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

You're correct.  There is lots of documentation out there. 
Unfortunately, it belongs with most things that are open sourse - in 
the trash.  Jakarata/tomcat is particularly bad.  The people that 
manage it should be ashamed of themselves (I hope they are not 
building software I have to rely on in life and death situations).

Mike


I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.

It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to read
it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
them.

John



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Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[David Brown]

Jim Henderson writes: 

I think it an opportunity to sell updated books!  ;) 

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:48 PM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list ! 

 

I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there. 

It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to read
it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
them. 

John 

-Original Message-
From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list ! 


I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
for tomcat.  Of course, nobody can answer your questions.  The
purpose of Jakarta is not to build useful software for "the rest of
us".   It is to keep geeks happy, programming something (that may or
may not be of use).  Documentation is only supplied for software when
the builders of it are serious about wanting it to be used. 

Mike 

>Well, you have lots of answers now.
>
>At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
>>found help.
>>I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
>>damages about
>>other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
>>Thank´s for NOTHING.
>>
>>
 

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Hello Mike, John is right. i subscribe to 6 technical mailing lists. that's 
a lot of traffic but i can handle suscribing to this many lists because i 
learned how to build my own email server running on a fast linux box and i 
learned how to do most of this on a mailing list. if u think tc-user is bad 
u should venture into installing a j2ee server like jboss or the oracle 9i 
application server and get on those lists and try to get some help. and, not 
to mention the beast mother of all mailing lists: QMAIL. try installing 
qmail w/o help. then when u give up trying to install qmail by urself 
subscribe to the qmail users list and ask a flimsy question and hope someone 
like charles cazabon reponds. good luck, david.

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Jim Henderson]

I think it an opportunity to sell updated books!  ;)

-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:48 PM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !



I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.

It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to read
it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
them.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
>
> I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
> It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> for tomcat.  Of course, nobody can answer your questions.  The
> purpose of Jakarta is not to build useful software for "the rest of
> us".   It is to keep geeks happy, programming something (that may or
> may not be of use).  Documentation is only supplied for software when
> the builders of it are serious about wanting it to be used.
>
> Mike
>
> >Well, you have lots of answers now.
> >
> >At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >>In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
> >>found help.
> >>I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
> >>damages about
> >>other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> >>Thank´s for NOTHING.
> >>
> >>


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

I disagree.  There's lots of documentation out there.

It's just not blasted into peoples' faces, nor is it bound into a nice
little book and shrinkwrapped.  You have to go find it, and you have to read
it.  Most people are too lazy to do either, they want everything handed to
them.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike DiChiappari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta. 
> It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation 
> for tomcat.  Of course, nobody can answer your questions.  The 
> purpose of Jakarta is not to build useful software for "the rest of 
> us".   It is to keep geeks happy, programming something (that may or 
> may not be of use).  Documentation is only supplied for software when 
> the builders of it are serious about wanting it to be used.
> 
> Mike
> 
> >Well, you have lots of answers now.
> >
> >At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >>In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i 
> >>found help.
> >>I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have 
> >>damages about
> >>other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> >>Thank´s for NOTHING.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Micael
> >
> 
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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Mike DiChiappari]

I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies to Jakarta.
It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
for tomcat.  Of course, nobody can answer your questions.  The
purpose of Jakarta is not to build useful software for "the rest of
us".   It is to keep geeks happy, programming something (that may or
may not be of use).  Documentation is only supplied for software when
the builders of it are serious about wanting it to be used.

Mike


Well, you have lots of answers now.

At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:

In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
found help.
I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
damages about
other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
Thank´s for NOTHING.


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Micael



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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Pae Choi]

You have all the rights to have your own impressions, but I'd
like to share with you about this list.

I have subscribed many lists in many years, but this is one of
the most friendly lists I ever seen.

This is just FYI.


Pae



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Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[micael]

Well, you have lots of answers now.

At 08:40 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:

In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i found 
help.
I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have damages 
about
other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
Thank´s for NOTHING.


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Donie Kelly]

http://www.mail-archive.com/tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org/

Didn't realise the archive on the other site was out of date. :(
Donie


-Original Message-
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 December 2002 14:44
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


On a side note, I checked that URL and found that the archive stops after
March 2002.  Or did I miss something?

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Donie Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:29 AM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
>
> I still don't understand the question. If it's so easy maybe
> it's because
> people are sick of answering simple questions where people
> don't read the
> how-to or installation guides properly. The archive for this
> list is at
> http://mikal.org/interests/java/tomcat/
>
> I suggest you spend a little time there first and come back
> if you have a
> real problem.
>
> Donie
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 09 December 2002 14:29
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
> Dear Jhon,
> Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very
> dificult because:
> 1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
> 2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12
> after the install.
>
> Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you
> excuses for this, but
> i
> don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have
> a minimal time
> for help something.
> And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste
> for to answer my
> claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.
>
> Thank´s.
>
>
> Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >
> > Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your
> time sending
> > you
> > on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not
> getting a
> > response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not
> > our
> > fault.  Deal with it.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > >
> > >
> > > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and
> > > NEVER i found help.
> > > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t
> > > have damages about
> > > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
>
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail:
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>
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

On a side note, I checked that URL and found that the archive stops after
March 2002.  Or did I miss something?

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Donie Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:29 AM
> To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> I still don't understand the question. If it's so easy maybe 
> it's because
> people are sick of answering simple questions where people 
> don't read the
> how-to or installation guides properly. The archive for this 
> list is at
> http://mikal.org/interests/java/tomcat/ 
> 
> I suggest you spend a little time there first and come back 
> if you have a
> real problem.
> 
> Donie
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 09 December 2002 14:29
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> Dear Jhon,
> Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very 
> dificult because:
> 1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
> 2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 
> after the install.
> 
> Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you 
> excuses for this, but
> i
> don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have 
> a minimal time
> for help something.
> And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste 
> for to answer my
> claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.
> 
> Thank´s.
> 
> 
> Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> >
> > Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your 
> time sending
> > you
> > on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not 
> getting a
> > response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not
> > our
> > fault.  Deal with it.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > >
> > >
> > > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and
> > > NEVER i found help.
> > > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t
> > > have damages about
> > > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> 
> --
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> 
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Shapira, Yoav]

Hi,
Maybe this will help.  I'll describe my rationale when I saw your question.  As you 
summarized them:

>1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
>2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the
>install.

Obviously, people (including myself) have done this before.  However, as someone who 
tries to contribute to this list by answering people's questions, I:
- Look for questions that are of interest to me to answer / discuss, which tend to be 
things a bit more involved than the above.
- Am limited by time.

>don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have a minimal
>time for help something.

Understand it ;)  There are a lot of people on this list who are very knowledgeable 
and like to help.  However, most of us do have full-time jobs and this list does have 
hundreds of messages a day.  No one (I know of ;)) gets paid for answering questions 
on this list.  People answer what's interesting to them.

And then, when the occasional person goes off on a "how come no one answered my 
question?!?!" rant, I personally tend to block them out and not pay much attention to 
future questions from them.  It's not ideal, but that's the way it is.

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Donie Kelly]

I still don't understand the question. If it's so easy maybe it's because
people are sick of answering simple questions where people don't read the
how-to or installation guides properly. The archive for this list is at
http://mikal.org/interests/java/tomcat/ 

I suggest you spend a little time there first and come back if you have a
real problem.

Donie


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 December 2002 14:29
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

Dear Jhon,
Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very dificult because:
1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the install.

Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you excuses for this, but
i
don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have a minimal time
for help something.
And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste for to answer my
claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.

Thank´s.


Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your time sending
> you
> on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not getting a
> response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not
> our
> fault.  Deal with it.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> >
> >
> > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and
> > NEVER i found help.
> > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t
> > have damages about
> > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Please repost your problem.  Be as specific as possible.  Provide version
numbers, and the text of any error messages you are seeing.

Please understand that your opinion of "minimal time" is inaccurate.  I'm
not even on the Tomcat team, and I spend several hours a day, every day,
reading and responding to posts on this list.  Time spent by most people on
this list is much much more than "minimal".

That's why you will get your questions answered quickly if you stop the poor
attitude, be polite, and be patient.  This help is free, after all.  If you
want me to devote an hour or two to you and you only, then pay for my time.
I am sure others feel the same way.  I accept PayPal.  Please pay in
advance, and there is no guarantee that I can resolve your problem.
Otherwise, be patient like everyone else.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:29 AM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> Dear Jhon, 
> Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very 
> dificult because:
> 1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
> 2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 
> after the install.
> 
> Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you 
> excuses for this, but i 
> don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have 
> a minimal time 
> for help something.
> And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste 
> for to answer my 
> claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.
> 
> Thank´s.
> 
> 
> Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > 
> > Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your 
> time sending
> > you
> > on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not 
> getting a
> > response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not
> > our
> > fault.  Deal with it.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > > 
> > > 
> > > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and 
> > > NEVER i found help. 
> > > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t 
> > > have damages about 
> > > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Faine, Mark]

I only  just subscribed to this list a few minutes ago and I will first say
that if I can ever help you in any way I will. 

Having said that, you are fighting a loosing battle here by condemning the
very people you are asking for help.  There is an old saying, you get more
flies with honey than with vinegar.

-Mark


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:29 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !


Dear Jhon, 
Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very dificult because:
1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and 2. Nobody has to run the simple
examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the install.

Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you excuses for this, but
i 
don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have a minimal time

for help something.
And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste for to answer my 
claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.

Thank´s.


Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your time 
> sending you on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're 
> not getting a response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  
> That's not our
> fault.  Deal with it.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and
> > NEVER i found help. 
> > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t 
> > have damages about 
> > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Michael Weissenbacher]

if you don't get answers i suggest you to take a look at this great text
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
it's "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" by Eric Steven Raymond and i think
it does apply here

regards
mw
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and 
> > NEVER i found help. 
> > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t 
> > have damages about 
> > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 
> --
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> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 
> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[capa]

Dear Jhon, 
Thank´s for your answer. Yes, maybe my questions is very dificult because:
1. Nobody has to installed tomcat 4.1.12 and
2. Nobody has to run the simple examples of tomcat 4.1.12 after the install.

Jhon, this questions are very easy. Please, i give you excuses for this, but i 
don´t understand how to people with big knowledges don´t have a minimal time 
for help something.
And, i don´t understand, how the people have time to waste for to answer my 
claim and don´t have time to answer my technical problem.

Thank´s.


Mensaje citado por: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your time sending
> you
> on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not getting a
> response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not
> our
> fault.  Deal with it.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > 
> > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and 
> > NEVER i found help. 
> > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t 
> > have damages about 
> > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 
> --
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> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 
> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Donie Kelly]

I reckon you should develop a sense of humour and take it in the way it was
intended. I don't care what country you come from and neither does anybody
else here. I've personally got major help from this list and find it an
invaluable source of information. Your post below will get you nowhere. Post
you question in a form that is answerable and you just might get some use
from the list.

Donie

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 December 2002 14:20
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

Sorry, buy your words don´t give me fear. I only search technical help for
something. i don´t have interest in to obtain enemies, I´d like friends that
can help me. Only friends.
I don´t need your threats.
Thank´s.

Mensaje citado por: Donie Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> You're defiantly blacklisted now :)
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
>
> In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
> found
> help.
> I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
> damages
> about
> other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> Thank´s for NOTHING.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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Re: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[David Kavanagh]

Hmm, let me help...
The note you were  responding to was meant in good humor. Notice the 
smiley face at the end. That means that the comment was meant as a joke. 
I'm sorry if you aren't in that kind of mood right now.

Why don't you try stating the problem(s) you are having, including 
OS/jdk/tomcat version numbers.

David

PS. Sometimes, I don't get a reponse to something I post. I just look 
elsewhere for help. (documentation, source code...)

On 12/9/2002 9:19 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Sorry, buy your words don´t give me fear. I only search technical help for 
something. i don´t have interest in to obtain enemies, I´d like friends that 
can help me. Only friends.
I don´t need your threats. 
Thank´s.

Mensaje citado por: Donie Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

You're defiantly blacklisted now :)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
found
help.
I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
damages
about
other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
Thank´s for NOTHING.


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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[capa]

Sorry, buy your words don´t give me fear. I only search technical help for 
something. i don´t have interest in to obtain enemies, I´d like friends that 
can help me. Only friends.
I don´t need your threats. 
Thank´s.

Mensaje citado por: Donie Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> You're defiantly blacklisted now :)
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
> found
> help.
> I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
> damages
> about
> other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> Thank´s for NOTHING.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Word of advice:  making threats about "damages to our country" is the
absolute worst way to go about asking for help.  I doubt anyone will help
you now, even if they could.

You should think about learning some manners.  You'll get a lot farther in
life, a lot easier.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:14 AM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> what curious that is the first time that someone here, can to 
> answer to 
> something. Yes, this list is not for fighting, but is for 
> help at other 
> persons...maybe you can help me to solve my "easy" technical 
> problem and forget 
> this, because i think that you don´t have damages, it´s right ?.
> Thank´s.
> 
> Mensaje citado por: "Laxmikanth M.S." 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > This is not the list for fighting..
> > if u have personal grievance please send it to intended 
> person not to
> > the
> > list
> > please avoid flooding mails like this hereafter.even I am sorry
> > for
> > sending to all but no othergo
> > 
> > Regards
> > Laxmikanth M S 
> > Off*  : 91-80-6610330 extn 1256
> > Res* : 91-80-5267150
> > http://www.sonata-software.com
> > 
> > > Coming together is the beginning, staying together is progress and
> > working
> > > together is Success
> > What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny 
> matters compared
> > to
> > what lies within us  - Emerson
> > 
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Donie Kelly [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:16 PM
> > > To:   'Tomcat Users List'
> > > Subject:  RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > > 
> > > You're defiantly blacklisted now :)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > > 
> > > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, 
> and NEVER i
> > found
> > > help.
> > > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
> > damages
> > > about
> > > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> *
> > Disclaimer: The information in this e-mail and any attachments is
> > confidential / privileged. It is intended solely for the 
> addressee or
> > addressees. If you are not the addressee indicated in this 
> message, you
> > may
> > not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should
> > destroy
> > this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please
> > advise
> > immediately if you or your employer does not consent to 
> Internet email
> > for
> > messages of this kind.
> > 
> *
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
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> > 
> > 
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[capa]

what curious that is the first time that someone here, can to answer to 
something. Yes, this list is not for fighting, but is for help at other 
persons...maybe you can help me to solve my "easy" technical problem and forget 
this, because i think that you don´t have damages, it´s right ?.
Thank´s.

Mensaje citado por: "Laxmikanth M.S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> This is not the list for fighting..
> if u have personal grievance please send it to intended person not to
> the
> list
> please avoid flooding mails like this hereafter.even I am sorry
> for
> sending to all but no othergo
> 
> Regards
> Laxmikanth M S 
> Off*  : 91-80-6610330 extn 1256
> Res* : 91-80-5267150
> http://www.sonata-software.com
> 
> > Coming together is the beginning, staying together is progress and
> working
> > together is Success
> What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared
> to
> what lies within us  - Emerson
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Donie Kelly [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent:   Monday, December 09, 2002 7:16 PM
> > To: 'Tomcat Users List'
> > Subject:RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > You're defiantly blacklisted now :)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> > 
> > In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i
> found
> > help.
> > I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have
> damages
> > about
> > other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> > Thank´s for NOTHING.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *
> Disclaimer: The information in this e-mail and any attachments is
> confidential / privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee or
> addressees. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, you
> may
> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should
> destroy
> this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please
> advise
> immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet email
> for
> messages of this kind.
> *
> 
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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Turner, John]

Would you rather that people who can't help you waste your time sending you
on wild goose chases that don't help at all?  If you're not getting a
response to your post, it's because nobody can help you.  That's not our
fault.  Deal with it.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> 
> In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and 
> NEVER i found help. 
> I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t 
> have damages about 
> other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> Thank´s for NOTHING.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Laxmikanth M.S.]

This is not the list for fighting..
if u have personal grievance please send it to intended person not to the
list
please avoid flooding mails like this hereafter.even I am sorry for
sending to all but no othergo

Regards
Laxmikanth M S 
Off*  : 91-80-6610330 extn 1256
Res* : 91-80-5267150
http://www.sonata-software.com

> Coming together is the beginning, staying together is progress and working
> together is Success
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to
what lies within us  - Emerson


> -Original Message-
> From: Donie Kelly [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:16 PM
> To:   'Tomcat Users List'
> Subject:  RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> You're defiantly blacklisted now :)
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> 
> In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i found
> help.
> I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have damages
> about
> other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
> Thank´s for NOTHING.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
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> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
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*
Disclaimer: The information in this e-mail and any attachments is
confidential / privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee or
addressees. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, you may
not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy
this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise
immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet email for
messages of this kind.
*

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RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[Donie Kelly]

You're defiantly blacklisted now :)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 09 December 2002 13:40
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i found
help.
I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have damages
about
other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
Thank´s for NOTHING.


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To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

[capa]

In 3 opportunities i wrote to this stuped (sorry) list, and NEVER i found help. 
I hope that the people that participates of this list, don´t have damages about 
other people that don´t belong´s at your countries.
Thank´s for NOTHING.


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