RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Ian Huynh]

Unless your client is very conforming to the rules (ie. Content-Length is
is correct wrt to available bytes) you could be waiting for a while for the
stream of data to come across or until your socket read statement timeout

int length = req.getContentLength();

ByteArrayOutputStream baos = new ByteArrayOutputStream();
int count = 0
int total = 0;
byte[] buf = new byte[8192];  // not sure which OS u have but if u are on Windows, 
   // use 8192 for the default OS block size
InputStream is  = req.getInputStream();
while (  (count = is.read(buf) ) != -1)
{ 
   total += count;
   baos.write(buf,0,count);
}

if (total != length)
{
   // handle this case as u see fit.
}

last note: bytearray is prob. better than reader/char array unless
you don't intend to handle non-character data.



> >  int length = req.getContentLength();
> >  char [] charArr = new char[length];
> >  int readResult = 0;
> >  int sum = 0;
> >  do {
> >sum += readResult;
> >length -= readResult;
> >readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
> >  } while (readResult < length);

> 
> 
> Howdy,
> Seems like a very decent fix.  Thanks for posting it so 
> others can have
> a future reference solution ;)
> 
> I wonder if there's a java.nio solution that will perform better...
> 
> Yoav Shapira
> Millennium ChemInformatics
> 
> 
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:34 PM
> >To: Tomcat Users List
> >Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
> >
> >Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the 
> 10Mbyte range, I
> >can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.
> >
> >The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
> >necessarily return the whole buffer.  So I replace the line
> >  reader.read(charArr);
> >With this:
> >  int length = req.getContentLength();
> >  char [] charArr = new char[length];
> >  int readResult = 0;
> >  int sum = 0;
> >  do {
> >sum += readResult;
> >length -= readResult;
> >readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
> >  } while (readResult < length);
> >
> >
> >Thanks for your help.  Any other critiques on the use of the standard
> >library are welcome.
> >
> >Dan
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
> >To: Tomcat Users List
> >Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
> >
> >
> >
> >Howdy,
> >
> >>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, 
> HttpServletResponse res) {
> >>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
> >>  try {
> >>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
> >>reader.read(charArr);
> >>String str = new String(charArr);
> >>
> >>try {
> >>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
> >>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
> >>  out.print(str);
> >>  out.flush();
> >>  out.close();
> >>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
> >>
> >>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
> >
> >What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there
> are
> >times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
> BufferedReader
> >reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
> >String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
> >  contents.append(line);
> >}
> >
> >System.out.println(contents);
> >
> >(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure 
> you're reading
> >the entire contents).
> >
> >Yoav Shapira
> >
> >
> >
> >This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
> >communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
> >proprietary and/or privileged.  This e-mail is intended only for the
> >individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
> >printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an)
> >intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
> >computer system and notify the sender.  Thank you.
> >
> >
> >-
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >For additional commands, 

RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Shapira, Yoav]

Howdy,
Seems like a very decent fix.  Thanks for posting it so others can have
a future reference solution ;)

I wonder if there's a java.nio solution that will perform better...

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:34 PM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
>
>Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the 10Mbyte range, I
>can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.
>
>The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
>necessarily return the whole buffer.  So I replace the line
>  reader.read(charArr);
>With this:
>  int length = req.getContentLength();
>  char [] charArr = new char[length];
>  int readResult = 0;
>  int sum = 0;
>  do {
>sum += readResult;
>length -= readResult;
>readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
>  } while (readResult < length);
>
>
>Thanks for your help.  Any other critiques on the use of the standard
>library are welcome.
>
>Dan
>-Original Message-
>From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
>
>
>
>Howdy,
>
>>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
>>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
>>  try {
>>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
>>reader.read(charArr);
>>String str = new String(charArr);
>>
>>try {
>>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
>>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
>>  out.print(str);
>>  out.flush();
>>  out.close();
>>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>>
>>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }
>
>What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there
are
>times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader
>reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
>String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
>  contents.append(line);
>}
>
>System.out.println(contents);
>
>(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
>the entire contents).
>
>Yoav Shapira
>
>
>
>This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
>communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
>proprietary and/or privileged.  This e-mail is intended only for the
>individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
>printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an)
>intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
>computer system and notify the sender.  Thank you.
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Stewart, Daniel J]

This code will be running in a controlled environment, with known
clients, where the largest message size is known (~10M).  This code
takes the entire body and forwards it on to another messaging system, so
I have no choice but to deal with the entire message.  And I can't read
it a byte or line at a time, because it would take too long.

Take a look at my other response to this subject to see the code that
fixed my problem.  I am open to any other suggestions

Dan



-Original Message-
From: Walker Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:21 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages


Hi,

I should have thought that as a general principle it's not a good idea
to try to store the response in a byte array.  I recently worked on a
piece of code that did just that (worse, actually, it then copied the
array into a String).  Sooner or later a really big upload will blow up
the application.

Reading and writing a byte at a time (with appropriate buffering)
requires a bit more ingenuity, especially when you're searching for
things like boundary strings in the response, but it's the only way to
remove any constraint on upload size.  

Chris Walker

-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 September 2003 19:30
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages



Howdy,

>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
>  try {
>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
>reader.read(charArr);
>String str = new String(charArr);
>
>try {
>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
>  out.print(str);
>  out.flush();
>  out.close();
>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>
>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }

What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like: BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
  contents.append(line);
}

System.out.println(contents);

(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).

Yoav Shapira



This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged.  This e-mail is intended only for the
individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Stewart, Daniel J]

Since I will be occasionally receiving messages in the 10Mbyte range, I
can't read in a line at a time - it takes too long.

The bug in the code below is because BufferedReader.read() will not
necessarily return the whole buffer.  So I replace the line
  reader.read(charArr);
With this:
  int length = req.getContentLength();
  char [] charArr = new char[length];
  int readResult = 0;
  int sum = 0;
  do {
sum += readResult;
length -= readResult;
readResult = reader.read(charArr, sum, length);
  } while (readResult < length);
  

Thanks for your help.  Any other critiques on the use of the standard
library are welcome.

Dan
-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages



Howdy,

>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
>  try {
>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
>reader.read(charArr);
>String str = new String(charArr);
>
>try {
>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
>  out.print(str);
>  out.flush();
>  out.close();
>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>
>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); } }

What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like: BufferedReader
reader = req.getReader(); StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null; while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
  contents.append(line);
}

System.out.println(contents);

(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).

Yoav Shapira



This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged.  This e-mail is intended only for the
individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an)
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your
computer system and notify the sender.  Thank you.


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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Walker Chris]

Hi,

I should have thought that as a general principle it's not a good idea to
try to store the response in a byte array.  I recently worked on a piece of
code that did just that (worse, actually, it then copied the array into a
String).  Sooner or later a really big upload will blow up the application.

Reading and writing a byte at a time (with appropriate buffering) requires a
bit more ingenuity, especially when you're searching for things like
boundary strings in the response, but it's the only way to remove any
constraint on upload size.  

Chris Walker

-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 30 September 2003 19:30
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages



Howdy,

>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
>  try {
>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
>reader.read(charArr);
>String str = new String(charArr);
>
>try {
>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
>  out.print(str);
>  out.flush();
>  out.close();
>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>
>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>}

What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null;
while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
  contents.append(line);
}

System.out.println(contents);

(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).

Yoav Shapira



This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary
and/or privileged.  This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to
whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or
used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please
immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the
sender.  Thank you.


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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Shapira, Yoav]

Howdy,

>public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
>  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
>  try {
>char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
>reader.read(charArr);
>String str = new String(charArr);
>
>try {
>  File f = new File("servlet.out");
>  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
>  out.print(str);
>  out.flush();
>  out.close();
>} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>
>  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
>}

What happens if you ditch the req.getContentLength() approach (there are
times when it will be -1 anyways), and do something like:
BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
StringBuffer contents = new StringBuffer();
String line = null;
while((line = reader.readLine()) != null) {
  contents.append(line);
}

System.out.println(contents);

(Later we'll worry about the writing -- first make sure you're reading
the entire contents).

Yoav Shapira



This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and 
may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged.  This 
e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be 
saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an) 
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system 
and notify the sender.  Thank you.


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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Stewart, Daniel J]

Here it is:

public class AdapterServlet extends HttpServlet {

public void service(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse res) {
  BufferedReader reader = req.getReader();
  try {
char [] charArr = new char[req.getContentLength()];
reader.read(charArr);
String str = new String(charArr);

try {
  File f = new File("servlet.out");
  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f));
  out.print(str);
  out.flush();
  out.close();
} catch(IOException err { System.err.println(err.toString()); }

  } catch(IOException err) { System.err.println(err.toString()); }
}


-Original Message-
From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:34 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages



Howdy,
Perhaps if you share your servlet which writes the message body to a
file, we could help you write a better servlet ;)

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:31 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
>
>
>When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost() 
>method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size, 
>but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about 
>2kbytes.
>
>In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to "100", 
>to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte 
>message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the 
>message and write it to a file, and it works just fine.
>
>I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem?
>
>Vitals:
>Tomcat version: 4.1.27
>Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF)
>OS: solaris 2.9
>My servlet skill level: medium-low
>
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business
communication, and may contain information that is confidential,
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individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied,
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RE: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Shapira, Yoav]

Howdy,
Perhaps if you share your servlet which writes the message body to a
file, we could help you write a better servlet ;)

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Stewart, Daniel J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:31 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages
>
>
>When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost()
>method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size,
>but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about
>2kbytes.
>
>In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to "100",
>to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte
>message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the
>message and write it to a file, and it works just fine.
>
>I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem?
>
>Vitals:
>Tomcat version: 4.1.27
>Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF)
>OS: solaris 2.9
>My servlet skill level: medium-low
>
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and 
may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged.  This 
e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be 
saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else.  If you are not the(an) 
intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system 
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Tomcat sucks at receiving large messages

[Stewart, Daniel J]

When receiving a HTTP 1.0 POST with a 10kbyte payload, my doPost()
method writes the message body to a file. The file is the right size,
but my data is nulled out (set to 0) after correctly receiving about
2kbytes. 

In frustration, I set the Connector bufferSize parameter to "100",
to discover that I could now receive about 4kbytes of my 10kbyte
message. I then proceeded to write my own Java server to receive the
message and write it to a file, and it works just fine. 

I am at a loss - can anyone suggest what could be causing this problem? 

Vitals: 
Tomcat version: 4.1.27 
Tomcat configuration: Out-of-the-box (except for my app's WEB-INF) 
OS: solaris 2.9 
My servlet skill level: medium-low 



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Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Alex Fernández]

Hi Frans!

Frans Thamura wrote:
> I think, Gomez must create tomcat-doc ASAP.

I agree completely! Let people do what they do best.

Un saludo,

Alex.

RE: JRUN really SUCKS (was TOMCAT SUCKS)

[Frans Thamura]

We have to finish this conversation ASAP.

I want to add to you. I am a ERP consultant, you know
SAP or Oracle, I am in Oracle arena. This software
cost US$100.000

My experience is Oracle is SUCK, even the support,
They sell software "WITH THOUSAND BUGS" and this make
make they pay me more .. haha .. strange business.

Oracle #2 in the world but they got a bugs in their
application esp Oracle Application (ERP). 

Oh yah, one thing, Oracle made a 1000 pages
documentation permodule (Oracle have more than 48
modules) .. God... 48.000 pages, and still not enough
for me as a consultant.

My college is SAP consultant, said that too, SAP is
more complicated.

I learn from this week (speaking SUCK everyday)..We
have to try to improve tomcat, tomcat "must be" a
foundation all apache project (JetSpeed, Cocoon,
Turbine etc). Because we all in one brand name
apache.org. We have to help each others.

We all got a good lesson, why don't we think we will
better than commercial software later, and we can be
like Great Bridge in listed in Fortune with their
PostgreSQL.

Oke, Who will create tomcat-doc mailing list.. I need
that.. but... what happen if there is a syntax, and
all the tomcat-doc mailing list got problem.

Basically, the question of syntax is

- Description
- Sample

Just it.

I think we need tomcat-user and tomcat-dev members
also.


Frans

--- Arnold Shore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Re " ... It replaced JRUN some time ago (which
> really SUCKS by the way) ..."
> 
> Peter, can share your thoughts here re exactly how? 
> We're looking at a few
> JSP engines, and am really short of
> informed opinions.  Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Shore
> Annapolis, MD USA
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Peter
> Mutsaers
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
> 
> ... On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm
> running Tomcat4 beta-5
> for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN
> some time ago (which
> really SUCKS by the way).
> 
> Documenation ...
> 


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RE: JRUN really SUCKS (was TOMCAT SUCKS)

[Arnold Shore]

Re " ... It replaced JRUN some time ago (which really SUCKS by the way) ..."

Peter, can share your thoughts here re exactly how?  We're looking at a few
JSP engines, and am really short of informed opinions.  Thanks.

Arnold Shore
Annapolis, MD USA

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter
Mutsaers
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

... On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm running Tomcat4 beta-5
for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN some time ago (which
really SUCKS by the way).

Documenation ...

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Peter Mutsaers]

>> "Nick" == Nick Stoianov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Nick> I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the
Nick> open source community but this is why I think that TOMCAT
Nick> sucks:

Some of the points you're mentioning are not Tomcat specific, but
general "problems" for free software: incomplete documentation, lack
of guaranteed support (only through mailing lists etc, hoping someone
helps you, where in practice b.t.w. support often is much better than
bought support).

The answers are standard too and have been mentioned 1000s of times
before:
- you have the source
- you can improve it yourself, why don't YOU write some documentation,
  fix some bugs or add some functionality?!?

Probably free software (such as Linux, FreeBSD, tomcat, apache, emacs,
perl) isn't for you; you better stick with MSFT stuff and stop
bothering us. It doesn't work well, but at least you have "guaranteed
support", "documentation" which only teaches you some tricks but
doesn't show the real API's (since even those are closed) let alone
the inner workings.

On Tomcat specifically, I can only say that I'm running Tomcat4 beta-5
for a critical Intranet server. It replaced JRUN some time ago (which
really SUCKS by the way).

Documenation has been sufficient for my purposes, and those parts
lacking can be found from the examples and from the source code (can
you read/understand source code by the way?!?). I don't need
integration with some other webserver, so those are no issue for me.

I can't comment on everyones needs and setup, but for my case Tomcat4
fits perfectly well, provides a solid implementation of the Servlet
2.3 API and is 100% reliable.

-- 
Peter Mutsaers  |  Dübendorf| UNIX - Live free or die
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  Switzerland  | Sent via FreeBSD 4.3-stable

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Frans Thamura]

I think a commiter must create a draft article, explain tomcat, and there
will be a team, that will review, and ask that article, and may be several
of those articles have a comment.. see php manual in php.net

The team update the article, and after that. this like CVS for
documentation, and the documentation is focus in English first, and follow
with any other language.

Frans

- Original Message -
From: "Tim Stoop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS


> Carlos Ferreira wrote:
> >
> > i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese
>
> And I with the Dutch version. I'd also be willing to write, but I'm
> quite new with Tomcat and since I started with JServ a year and a half
> ago, Tomcat isn't very transparant for me, I'm afraid...


_
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Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Frans Thamura]

My experience:

I am ebiz consultant, in every my engangement, I did 2/3 of my project with
documentation. And most of them have to be rework, and redone, because bad
content..

I think we cannot say all the TQ guy don't like that. All the TQ and
commiter must start with that, this will give all of us benefit? CVS is not
enough.

Do you ever count how many people email to this mailing list and ask?

My Tomcat is not work with my IIS in W2K??? more than once every week..

See.. this is not an effective, isn't it? because no documentation explain
of this?

are we have to wait the Devshed.com, or someone post in his web site, and no
link from this web site??? It is not a good solution also.

I think, Gomez must create tomcat-doc ASAP.

Frans


- Original Message -
From: "Alex Fernández" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS


> Hi Jeff!
>
> "Noll, Jeff HS" wrote:
> > Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> > products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same
consideration
> > as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> > includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you
want
> > to fight.
>
> Yes you can (and should). Do you know why engineers are so bad writers
> of user documentation? Because they are so embedded in the technical
> point of view that it takes a big effort to revert to user mind. That's
> why there are technical writers in the world.
>
> Open Source is about scratching your itches (usually at what you do
> best). I don't want lousy manuals written by overworked engineers --
> that's worse than nothing. But some users have contributed excellent
> guides, although they are not as handy as they should be.
>
> That's the reason why it's so disgusting to hear folks complaining about
> the docs. If you have an itch, you don't ask dad to scratch it any more
> -- you know exactly the sore point. If you're willing to make the docs
> better, I'm sure you'll get all the support you need.
>
> > For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain
> > sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons
OS is
> > often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may
> > think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much
information is
> > on MSDN?
>
> On MSDN you don't have access at the internal workings of software,
> reasons behind design choices or bugs that have been corrected and are
> recurrent. In the tomcat-dev archives you can find all of that and much
> more.
>
> On MSDN you cannot speak to the actual engineers that did the job and
> drove the architecture forward. In the tomcat-dev list you can.
>
> > The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> > rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really
matter? I
> > dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka
nd
> > feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS
projects
> > fail miserably.
>
> Most open source projects fail in lack of commitment from the dev/user
> community. Bad docs are just a consequence of poor user commitment (in
> that field, in others like bug finding we excel).
>
> > Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> > shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> > argueing the point).
>
> Un saludo,
>
> Alex.


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Antw: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS (Abwesenheitsnotiz)

[Petra Hora]

Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine 
Kollegen im Team EW2

Mit freundlichen Grüßen 
Petra Hora

RE: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[Filip Hanik]

>Probably. Apparently 22 people are signed up... can't see how far 
>they've got yet, though.

there are a few chapters ready, it is all in docbook format.
there is a mailing list on yahoo groups 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

who is starting another project?

Filip

~
Namaste - I bow to the divine in you
~
Filip Hanik
Software Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.filip.net 

>-Original Message-
>From: Simon Brooke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 5:22 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS
>
>
>On Friday 29 June 2001 11:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check:
>> http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook)
>
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/tomcatbook/>
>
>> Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to
>> synchronise efforts?
>

>
>
>-- 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
>   -- mens vacua in medio vacuo --
>

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Alex Fernández]

Hi Jeff!

"Noll, Jeff HS" wrote:
> Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration
> as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want
> to fight.

Yes you can (and should). Do you know why engineers are so bad writers
of user documentation? Because they are so embedded in the technical
point of view that it takes a big effort to revert to user mind. That's
why there are technical writers in the world.

Open Source is about scratching your itches (usually at what you do
best). I don't want lousy manuals written by overworked engineers --
that's worse than nothing. But some users have contributed excellent
guides, although they are not as handy as they should be.

That's the reason why it's so disgusting to hear folks complaining about
the docs. If you have an itch, you don't ask dad to scratch it any more
-- you know exactly the sore point. If you're willing to make the docs
better, I'm sure you'll get all the support you need.

> For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain
> sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is
> often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may
> think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is
> on MSDN?

On MSDN you don't have access at the internal workings of software,
reasons behind design choices or bugs that have been corrected and are
recurrent. In the tomcat-dev archives you can find all of that and much
more.

On MSDN you cannot speak to the actual engineers that did the job and
drove the architecture forward. In the tomcat-dev list you can.

> The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I
> dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd
> feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects
> fail miserably.

Most open source projects fail in lack of commitment from the dev/user
community. Bad docs are just a consequence of poor user commitment (in
that field, in others like bug finding we excel).

> Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> argueing the point).

Un saludo,

Alex.

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Bo Xu]

GOMEZ Henri wrote:

> [...]
> We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help
> in that area.
>
> Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
> Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.
>
> Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary
> developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation
> redactors.
>
> So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?
> [...]

Hi :-)  if it is possible, I want to work for Tomcat Documentation :-)


Bo
June 29, 2001

Antw: RE: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS(Abwesenheitsnotiz)

[Petra Hora]

Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine 
Kollegen im Team EW2

Mit freundlichen Grüßen 
Petra Hora

Antw: Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS(Abwesenheitsnotiz)

[Petra Hora]

Ich bin bis 9.7.2001 auf Urlaub. Bitte wenden Sie sich in dieser Zeit an meine 
Kollegen im Team EW2

Mit freundlichen Grüßen 
Petra Hora

Re: Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[Simon Brooke]

On Friday 29 June 2001 11:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check:
> http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook)

http://sourceforge.net/projects/tomcatbook/>

> Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to
> synchronise efforts?

Probably. Apparently 22 people are signed up... can't see how far 
they've got yet, though.


-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

-- mens vacua in medio vacuo --

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Roland Carlsson]

I can offer Swedish translation from the english texts. Please take contact on 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (private adress). Could be a nice way getting involved.

Regards
Roland Carlsson
- Original Message - 
From: "Carlos Ferreira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS 


> i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:41 AM
> Subject: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS 
> 
> 
> > > Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> > >products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same 
> > >consideration
> > >as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> > >includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the 
> > >battles you want
> > >to fight. 
> > 
> > Could we close this thread positively ?
> > 
> > We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help 
> > in that area.
> > 
> > Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
> > Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.
> > 
> > Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary 
> > developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation 
> > redactors.
> > 
> > So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > >For the most part, the documentation in OS projects 
> > >just plain
> > >sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the 
> > >reasons OS is
> > >often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, 
> > >people may
> > >think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much 
> > >information is
> > >on MSDN?
> > > The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> > >rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this 
> > >really matter? I
> > >dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a 
> > >finished looka nd
> > >feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most 
> > >OS projects
> > >fail miserably.
> > > Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> > >shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> > >argueing the point).
> > >
> 

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Julien Gilli]

> So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?

I am highly interested. I am writing a french tutorial about servlets (which
can be found at http://darktigrou.free.fr/). It's a work in progress.
I am also involved in the french python translation group
(http://frpython.sourceforge.net/) and i love docs :-).
So please let me know if this idea get into a real project.

Regards,

Julien Gilli.

Re[2]: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[hische]

A few months ago a project to write a Tomcat book was started (check:
http://www.sourgeforge.org search for tomcatbook)
Haven't heard a lot about it since. Wouldn't it be an good idea to synchronise
efforts?
I am not involved in this project myself however.

Regards,

Wilko


Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To:        [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:        [EMAIL PROTECTED] (bcc: Wilko Hische/HADV/NL)
Subject:        Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS


[IMAGE]
I think tomcatbook "must" be a sub project of tomcat.
Like it or not, we have to overdrive tomcat expert for
tomcat development it-self.

I think.
Tomcat=good software,
Tomcat book=good project,
Tomcat with easy to used  documentation and a lot of
project=better software.

Don't think like this.
1. Because apache tomcat is from SUN, so all the
commiter have to be don't care of this stuff.
2. Free is different with commercial, because we work
in part time and hobbyst

Remember good project with bad documentation is not a
good project. if the software is not as easy as
possible, it is not a easy to used software. This is
why microsoft is popular. try their way, see Microsoft
Press.

Easy will overdrive of popularity.

I write this because I care of tomcat project.

I worked from one of the big consulting firm last
year, and I did several converstaion with my eBusiness
team,

"opensource never go to enterprise, even Linux, even
several company try to support it like IBM" if  no
good suppoer, and that software is not as easy as
possible.

Esp for Open Source project, is there a training
center for Open Source, yah.. only Red Hat, is it
cheap??? for me.. 1 training in Red Hat = 1 year
food.. and it is still SUCK training.

I think you all have to change the role.


Oh yah, I am one of the most SUCK but make me life
better. It is called Oracle Application (#2 ERP
software in the world). They sell great software
because there is very complex and thousand bugs
there...and every module 1000 pages, but All the
consultants always say it is not detail enough. Still
SUCK software. SUCK because we pay the maintenance for
patch of the bugs.

This is make Open Source popular, less bug, but where
is the documentation.

Regards,


Frans



--- Dmitri Colebatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe there is a project (yes there is, I
> thought I'd check before
> sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge
> (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net).  Perhaps that
> would be a good place to
> a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest
> questions.
>
> cheers
> dim
>
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote:
> > >.As far as I understand it, there is nothing to
> stop a user from adding
> > >documentation
> > >to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at
> how good the documentation
> > >is
> > >seeing as how no one was paid to do it.
> >
> >         Not to get into a great big argument over OS
> version commercial
> > products, but if OS projects expect to be taken
> with the same consideration
> > as commercial they have to accept to be compared
> across the board. This
> > includes documentation. You can't just pick and
> choose the battles you want
> > to fight. For the most part, the documentation in
> OS projects just plain
> > sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this
> is one of the reasons OS
> > is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its
> close source, people may
> > think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have
> idea how much information
> > is on MSDN?
> >         The lack of documentation available goes against
> some very basic
> > rules of Software Engineering. In the real world
> does this really matter? I
> > dunno, but often times packaging and presentation,
> and a finished looka nd
> > feel are the key to getting in the door and this
> is where most OS projects
> > fail miserably.
> >         Because its free might be the reason the
> documentation sucks, it
> > shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying
> tomcat sucks, just
> > argueing the point).


__
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(Embedded image moved to file: pic31850.pcx)

 pic31850.pcx

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Alex Fernández]

Hi Henri!

One suggestion: create a mailing list (e.g. tomcat-doc) so that folks
may speak about docs. Also, it would show some level of commitment -- at
least you have to subscribe.

Un saludo,

Alex.

GOMEZ Henri wrote:
> 
> >   Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> >products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same
> >consideration
> >as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> >includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the
> >battles you want
> >to fight.
> 
> Could we close this thread positively ?
> 
> We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help
> in that area.
> 
> Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
> Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.
> 
> Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary
> developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation
> redactors.
> 
> So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?
> 
> --
> 
> >For the most part, the documentation in OS projects
> >just plain
> >sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the
> >reasons OS is
> >often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source,
> >people may
> >think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much
> >information is
> >on MSDN?
> >   The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> >rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this
> >really matter? I
> >dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a
> >finished looka nd
> >feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most
> >OS projects
> >fail miserably.
> >   Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> >shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> >argueing the point).
> >

Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[Frans Thamura]

I think tomcatbook "must" be a sub project of tomcat.
Like it or not, we have to overdrive tomcat expert for
tomcat development it-self.

I think. 
Tomcat=good software, 
Tomcat book=good project, 
Tomcat with easy to used  documentation and a lot of
project=better software.

Don't think like this. 
1. Because apache tomcat is from SUN, so all the
commiter have to be don't care of this stuff.
2. Free is different with commercial, because we work
in part time and hobbyst

Remember good project with bad documentation is not a
good project. if the software is not as easy as
possible, it is not a easy to used software. This is
why microsoft is popular. try their way, see Microsoft
Press.

Easy will overdrive of popularity. 

I write this because I care of tomcat project.

I worked from one of the big consulting firm last
year, and I did several converstaion with my eBusiness
team,

"opensource never go to enterprise, even Linux, even
several company try to support it like IBM" if  no
good suppoer, and that software is not as easy as
possible.

Esp for Open Source project, is there a training
center for Open Source, yah.. only Red Hat, is it
cheap??? for me.. 1 training in Red Hat = 1 year
food.. and it is still SUCK training.

I think you all have to change the role.


Oh yah, I am one of the most SUCK but make me life
better. It is called Oracle Application (#2 ERP
software in the world). They sell great software
because there is very complex and thousand bugs
there...and every module 1000 pages, but All the
consultants always say it is not detail enough. Still
SUCK software. SUCK because we pay the maintenance for
patch of the bugs.

This is make Open Source popular, less bug, but where
is the documentation. 

Regards,


Frans



--- Dmitri Colebatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe there is a project (yes there is, I
> thought I'd check before 
> sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge 
> (http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net).  Perhaps that
> would be a good place to 
> a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest
> questions.
> 
> cheers
> dim
> 
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote:
> > >.As far as I understand it, there is nothing to
> stop a user from adding
> > >documentation
> > >to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at
> how good the documentation
> > >is
> > >seeing as how no one was paid to do it.
> >
> > Not to get into a great big argument over OS
> version commercial
> > products, but if OS projects expect to be taken
> with the same consideration
> > as commercial they have to accept to be compared
> across the board. This
> > includes documentation. You can't just pick and
> choose the battles you want
> > to fight. For the most part, the documentation in
> OS projects just plain
> > sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this
> is one of the reasons OS
> > is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its
> close source, people may
> > think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have
> idea how much information
> > is on MSDN?
> > The lack of documentation available goes against
> some very basic
> > rules of Software Engineering. In the real world
> does this really matter? I
> > dunno, but often times packaging and presentation,
> and a finished looka nd
> > feel are the key to getting in the door and this
> is where most OS projects
> > fail miserably.
> > Because its free might be the reason the
> documentation sucks, it
> > shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying
> tomcat sucks, just
> > argueing the point).


__
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Tim Stoop]

Carlos Ferreira wrote:
> 
> i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese

And I with the Dutch version. I'd also be willing to write, but I'm
quite new with Tomcat and since I started with JServ a year and a half
ago, Tomcat isn't very transparant for me, I'm afraid...

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Carlos Ferreira]

i could help with translations: french, german, portuguese


- Original Message - 
From: "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:41 AM
Subject: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS 


> > Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> >products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same 
> >consideration
> >as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> >includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the 
> >battles you want
> >to fight. 
> 
> Could we close this thread positively ?
> 
> We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help 
> in that area.
> 
> Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
> Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.
> 
> Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary 
> developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation 
> redactors.
> 
> So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?
> 
> --
> 
> 
> >For the most part, the documentation in OS projects 
> >just plain
> >sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the 
> >reasons OS is
> >often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, 
> >people may
> >think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much 
> >information is
> >on MSDN?
> > The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> >rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this 
> >really matter? I
> >dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a 
> >finished looka nd
> >feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most 
> >OS projects
> >fail miserably.
> > Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> >shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> >argueing the point).
> >

RE: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[GOMEZ Henri]

>I'd be willing to proofread and validate any docs for the j-t-c (i.e.
>Apache/Tomcat integration).  I don't have time to actually write the
>docs, but I could conceivably help those who don't understand how it 
>works, but do have the time and patience to learn it and write docs
>for it.  

Be our guest in j-t-c :)

WebServer/Tomcat integration (Apache/TC, IIS/TC, mod_jk, webapp...) 
count at least 30% of questions on tomcat-user list :)

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Tuukk4 |[:)<-<| p4s4n3n]

I think i can be Interested, because when you make documentation you get know product 
best.

Tuukka

ps. Tomcat really don't suX someone just do get i right:) Pioneering isn't easiest 
thing to do.

---
--Me olemme keskella jotain. jossa olemme totaalisen ulkopuolisia--


On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:41:52  
 GOMEZ Henri wrote:
>>  Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
>>products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same 
>>consideration
>>as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
>>includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the 
>>battles you want
>>to fight. 
>
>Could we close this thread positively ?
>
>We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help 
>in that area.
>
>Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
>Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.
>
>Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary 
>developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation 
>redactors.
>
>So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?
>
>--
>
>
>>For the most part, the documentation in OS projects 
>>just plain
>>sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the 
>>reasons OS is
>>often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, 
>>people may
>>think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much 
>>information is
>>on MSDN?
>>  The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
>>rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this 
>>really matter? I
>>dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a 
>>finished looka nd
>>feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most 
>>OS projects
>>fail miserably.
>>  Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
>>shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
>>argueing the point).
>>
>


Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/

Re: [Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Justin Erenkrantz]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 09:41:52AM +0200, GOMEZ Henri wrote:
> So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?

I'd be willing to proofread and validate any docs for the j-t-c (i.e.
Apache/Tomcat integration).  I don't have time to actually write the
docs, but I could conceivably help those who don't understand how it 
works, but do have the time and patience to learn it and write docs
for it.  

Anyone who is interested, just drop me a line.

Writing end-user documentation is a good way of finding holes in a 
design that may not be obvious from the code itself.  -- justin

[Tomcat Documentation Redactors To Hire] - WAS: TOMCAT SUCKS

[GOMEZ Henri]

>   Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
>products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same 
>consideration
>as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
>includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the 
>battles you want
>to fight. 

Could we close this thread positively ?

We all know that tomcat documentation is incomplete and we need help 
in that area.

Tomcat IS AN OPENSOURCE project with a big user community,
Jon Stevens recently reported more than 50-100k downloads / month.

Everybody could be involved in the project, and not necessary 
developpers. I'm sure there is around potentials documentation 
redactors.

So who will be interested in working on the Tomcat Documentation ?

--


>For the most part, the documentation in OS projects 
>just plain
>sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the 
>reasons OS is
>often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, 
>people may
>think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much 
>information is
>on MSDN?
>   The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
>rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this 
>really matter? I
>dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a 
>finished looka nd
>feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most 
>OS projects
>fail miserably.
>   Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
>shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
>argueing the point).
>

Re: TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[Tim O'Neil]

At 04:18 PM 6/28/2001, you wrote:
>I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before
>sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge
>(http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net).  Perhaps that would be a good place to
>a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions.

Its not a good place to look yet. Neither the "browse online"
or "download" links go anywhere. I guess its really not ready
yet.

TomcatBook - was TOMCAT SUCKS

[Dmitri Colebatch]

I believe there is a project (yes there is, I thought I'd check before 
sending this) called tomcatbook at sourceforge 
(http://tomcatbook.sourceforge.net).  Perhaps that would be a good place to 
a) look for advanced answers, and b) suggest questions.

cheers
dim

On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:29, you wrote:
> >.As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding
> >documentation
> >to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation
> >is
> >seeing as how no one was paid to do it.
>
>   Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
> products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration
> as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
> includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want
> to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain
> sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS
> is often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may
> think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information
> is on MSDN?
>   The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
> rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I
> dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd
> feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects
> fail miserably.
>   Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
> shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
> argueing the point).

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Noll, Jeff HS]

>.As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding
>documentation
>to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation
>is
>seeing as how no one was paid to do it.
Not to get into a great big argument over OS version commercial
products, but if OS projects expect to be taken with the same consideration
as commercial they have to accept to be compared across the board. This
includes documentation. You can't just pick and choose the battles you want
to fight. For the most part, the documentation in OS projects just plain
sucks, if it even exists. Believe it or not this is one of the reasons OS is
often frowned upon. Look at Microsoft, sure its close source, people may
think it sucks, blah blah blah, but do you have idea how much information is
on MSDN?
The lack of documentation available goes against some very basic
rules of Software Engineering. In the real world does this really matter? I
dunno, but often times packaging and presentation, and a finished looka nd
feel are the key to getting in the door and this is where most OS projects
fail miserably.
Because its free might be the reason the documentation sucks, it
shouldn't be a justification. (not that i'm saying tomcat sucks, just
argueing the point).

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Christopher Kirk]

This raises a good point, people who put so much work into an open project
such as Tomcat are rarely praised and often have to put up with a lot of
unnecessary flak!


So lets take time out from the 'This Sucks' theme and say THANK YOU TOMCAT!



- Chris.

> -Original Message-
> From: James Radvan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 28 June 2001 10:56
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: TOMCAT SUCKS
> 
> 
> I think openly criticising a product that many people have 
> worked hard to
> create and provide for your FREE use shows a remarkable lack 
> of gratitude,
> especially when you follow your blinkered criticism with a 
> request for help
> from the same people you just insulted.  If you want an 
> enterprise level
> system, pay for it.  Tomcat holds it's own against any 
> product on the market
> in it's space.
> 
> -
> James Radvan
> Websphere Analyst/Architect
> London, UK
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +44 7990 624899
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Dmitri Colebatch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 28 June 2001 02:53
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Nick Stoianov
> Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS
> 
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10, Nick Stoianov wrote:
> > 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex
> > installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , 
> different ports and
> > load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like 
> this? No books ,
> no
> > support, no help from the mailing list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click here to visit the Argos home page http://www.argos.co.uk
> 
> The information contained in this message or any of its 
> attachments may be privileged and confidential, and is 
> intended exclusively for the addressee.
> The views expressed may not be official policy, but the 
> personal views of the originator.  
> If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, 
> distribution, dissemination or use of this communication is 
> not authorised.
> If you have received this message in error, please advise the 
> sender by using the reply facility in your e-mail software.
> All messages sent and received by Argos Ltd are monitored for 
> virus, high risk file extensions, and inappropriate content.  
> As a result users should be aware that mail may be accessed.
> 
> 
> 


--

NOTICE:  The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is
intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or
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mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without
copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email
or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be
corrected.

AW: TOMCAT SUCKS // what lb problem? plz clarify

[Nico Wieland]

> 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the 
> productivity of the web server with at least 1000%

?? i'm running a fairly complex website (very drastic flash frontend/java backend) and 
it works fine. big server though, but it really runs quite fine.

> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - 
> for complex 
> configurations it sucks. 

well i don't do virtual hosting but it's still a fairly complex site, and i think TC 
goes way beyond 'testing purpose only'. in fact all problems i run in unto now were 
our own bugs :) 

can you tell us what your load balancing problems were exactly? i had it a short while 
behind a LB and it worked fine. currently it's back to one machine, but i'll have it 
LB'ed again when the load will dramatically rise in 2 weeks or so. therefore i'd be 
very much interested in knowing what kind of problems you were/are experiencing.

thanks,

Nico

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[James Radvan]

I think openly criticising a product that many people have worked hard to
create and provide for your FREE use shows a remarkable lack of gratitude,
especially when you follow your blinkered criticism with a request for help
from the same people you just insulted.  If you want an enterprise level
system, pay for it.  Tomcat holds it's own against any product on the market
in it's space.

-
James Radvan
Websphere Analyst/Architect
London, UK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+44 7990 624899


-Original Message-
From: Dmitri Colebatch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 28 June 2001 02:53
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Nick Stoianov
Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10, Nick Stoianov wrote:
> 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex
> installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and
> load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books ,
no
> support, no help from the mailing list.




Click here to visit the Argos home page http://www.argos.co.uk

The information contained in this message or any of its attachments may be privileged 
and confidential, and is intended exclusively for the addressee.
The views expressed may not be official policy, but the personal views of the 
originator.  
If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution, 
dissemination or use of this communication is not authorised.
If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender by using the 
reply facility in your e-mail software.
All messages sent and received by Argos Ltd are monitored for virus, high risk file 
extensions, and inappropriate content.  As a result users should be aware that mail 
may be accessed.

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Dmitri Colebatch]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10, Nick Stoianov wrote:
> 5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex
> installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and
> load balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no
> support, no help from the mailing list.
I replied to your email asking for more information on what your requirements 
are.  As I said there, I've haven't been able to get virtuals to work when 
relying on a port, but am prepared to look at implementing that if other 
people need it too (I did a simple name-based workaround).

What are your specific requirements that aren't being fulfilled, performance 
aside?

cheesr
dim

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Milt Epstein]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Arnold Shore wrote:

> Well, you can always ask for your money back.
>
> But I note that per the Tomcat intro, "... Tomcat is the official
> Reference Implementation ..."
>
> A reference implementation has never been intended as a production
> version, but rather a version from which a lot of learning can be
> had - both for developers and users.  See some W3C discussion on
> this topic.
[ ... ]

FWIW, even though Tomcat is the reference implementation of the
servlet spec, I think the intention is to have it be production
quality.  That kinds of makes sense, it being part of Apache.

Milt Epstein
Research Programmer
Software/Systems Development Group
Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Todd D. VanderVeen]

Nick,

Given the provocative title of the post, I found the community's response
remarkably restrained. Having worked with Tomcat for the past year and a
half in a production environment (integrated with APACHE in a multihosted
environment, now with mod_jk) I have little to complain about. Doubtless
some effort is required to set up such an environment and those faced with
it aren't likely to have a lot of time to give back. But I think its pretty
safe to say no one is going to make time for one so pretentious and
blantantly critical. Having used JRun, Weblogic, I can tell you with
assurance that money spent here won't provide you with the high-flown
expectations you apparently held for Tomcat. The responses people gave
weren't attacks, they're facts ... like the software, they're free, you can
take them or leave them. My experience has been that a polite well placed
question goes pretty far around here.

Cheers,
Todd V.


-Original Message-
From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 6:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; pete
Subject: Re: TOMCAT SUCKS


To all of you "tomcat fans",

Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things:
1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences
2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again.

1st of all - how many of you have installed Tomcat with about 30 virtual
servers with integrated Apache behind a load balancer?
When you make this work - then you can tell me how good Tomcat is.
I tried it - it works - but it's not stable and mod_jk is slow when you have
this multihost environment.

2nd of all - you are right, there is no sign "Get your complete and
comprehensive documentation here". But this doesn't solve the problem with
the lack of documentation. Linux is open source too - look how many books
are
there on Linux.

3rd - it's not my job to hire somebody to write a book about Tomcat. I'm
just
stating that I will not use it until somebody writes something.
Unfortunately
I don't have the time to write a book about Tomcat.

4th - reading your solution about writing a shell or Perl script for the
servlets mapping problem shows that you have no idea about SHELL scripting
nor PERL programming (and I guess Tomcat either)

5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex
installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and
load
balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no
support, no help from the mailing list.

Thanks
Nick

On Wednesday 27 June 2001 04:01 pm, pete wrote:
> If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any
> project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing
> a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete
> and comprehensive documentation here'.
>
> If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to
> write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price
> of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then
> have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the
> community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of
> finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more
> stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs.
>
> Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down
> your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily,
> and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will
> struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if
> you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine.
>
> If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case
> scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI
> or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You
> know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project
> so that other people can use it to save time.
>
> And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to
> the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial
> servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect
> tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet
> engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are
> completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you
> type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it.
>
> If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it
> correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just
> because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Arnold Shore]

Well, you can always ask for your money back.

But I note that per the Tomcat intro, "... Tomcat is the official Reference
Implementation ..."

A reference implementation has never been intended as a production version,
but rather a version from which a lot of learning can be had - both for
developers and users.  See some W3C discussion on this topic.

Yep, there's a lot of natural enthusiasm here.  But that doesn't change the
nature of the beast, and it sounds like you've made a bad choice for your
environment.  A shame, really, but hardly the fault of the Tomcat crew, IMO.

Arnold Shore
Annapolis, MD USA


-Original Message-
From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS


Hi guys,

I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:

1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have
load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.

2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have
a
load balancer in front of the web server.

3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the
productivity of the web server with at least 1000%

4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts
have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is
money.

5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of
the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I
guess
the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if
nobody
has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time
again.

I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for
complex
configurations it sucks.
If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at
WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

Nick

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Nick Stoianov]

Hey Milt,

I guess you are right. 

Thanks,
Nick


On Wednesday 27 June 2001 05:23 pm, Milt Epstein wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote:
> > To all of you "tomcat fans",
> >
> > Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things:
> > 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences
> > 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so
> well by the subject of your post.  If you've got your mind made up and
> won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point
> of coming in here and posting like you did.  You're acting out,
> something a three year old does.
>
> Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes.  It may
> very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable.  That
> doesn't mean it "sucks", or that it's not suitable for others.  Your
> situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it
> will be problematic for you to use Tomcat.  And perhaps for a number
> of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time
> trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want
> it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else
> figure it out for you.  So a heavy duty commercial product with
> support may be a better choice for you.  But it's going to cost you
> (whereas Tomcat is free).  But that's a choice you're making as to how
> best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a
> legitimate choice).  Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat "sucks", it's just
> not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of
> the other products out there, including commercial ones).
>
> Milt Epstein
> Research Programmer
> Software/Systems Development Group
> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Milt Epstein]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Nick Stoianov wrote:

> To all of you "tomcat fans",
>
> Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things:
> 1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences
> 2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again.
[ ... ]

Frankly, you're the one that's being immature here -- as evidenced so
well by the subject of your post.  If you've got your mind made up and
won't listen to legitimate suggestions from others, what's the point
of coming in here and posting like you did.  You're acting out,
something a three year old does.

Now, this doesn't mean you don't have some legitimate gripes.  It may
very well be that for your situation, Tomcat isn't suitable.  That
doesn't mean it "sucks", or that it's not suitable for others.  Your
situation just may be complex enough, or idiosyncratic enough, that it
will be problematic for you to use Tomcat.  And perhaps for a number
of reasons, it's just not possible for you to spend a lot of time
trying to figure out how to get Tomcat to do what you want, you want
it to work the way you want out of the box, or have someone else
figure it out for you.  So a heavy duty commercial product with
support may be a better choice for you.  But it's going to cost you
(whereas Tomcat is free).  But that's a choice you're making as to how
best to allocate your resources (and it may perfectly well be a
legitimate choice).  Again, it doesn't mean Tomcat "sucks", it's just
not what you need (and I've probably heard complaints about most of
the other products out there, including commercial ones).

Milt Epstein
Research Programmer
Software/Systems Development Group
Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Nick Stoianov]

To all of you "tomcat fans",

Attacking me with these immature e-mails shows the following things:
1. not accepting other people's opinions and experiences
2. blindly repeating the same things over and over again.

1st of all - how many of you have installed Tomcat with about 30 virtual 
servers with integrated Apache behind a load balancer?
When you make this work - then you can tell me how good Tomcat is.
I tried it - it works - but it's not stable and mod_jk is slow when you have 
this multihost environment.

2nd of all - you are right, there is no sign "Get your complete and 
comprehensive documentation here". But this doesn't solve the problem with 
the lack of documentation. Linux is open source too - look how many books are 
there on Linux.

3rd - it's not my job to hire somebody to write a book about Tomcat. I'm just 
stating that I will not use it until somebody writes something. Unfortunately 
I don't have the time to write a book about Tomcat.

4th - reading your solution about writing a shell or Perl script for the 
servlets mapping problem shows that you have no idea about SHELL scripting 
nor PERL programming (and I guess Tomcat either)

5th - I haven't met anybody in this mailing list who has a complex 
installation of Tomcat with a lot of virtual hosts , different ports and load 
balancers. So - who will help me in situation like this? No books , no 
support, no help from the mailing list. 

Thanks 
Nick

On Wednesday 27 June 2001 04:01 pm, pete wrote:
> If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any
> project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing
> a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete
> and comprehensive documentation here'.
>
> If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to
> write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price
> of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then
> have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the
> community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of
> finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more
> stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs.
>
> Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down
> your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily,
> and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will
> struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if
> you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine.
>
> If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case
> scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI
> or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You
> know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project
> so that other people can use it to save time.
>
> And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to
> the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial
> servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect
> tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet
> engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are
> completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you
> type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it.
>
> If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it
> correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just
> because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in
> such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided.
>
>
>
> -Pete
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
> > community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:
> >
> > 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
> > server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people
> > have load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is
> > almost impossible - especially if you have a load balancer in front of
> > the web server.
> >
> > 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the
> > productivity of the web server with at least 1000%
> >
> > 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual
> > hosts have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know -
> > time is money.
> >
> > 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99%
> > of the

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[kevin ritter]

Nick,

I just saw on the site
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/03/15/tomcat.html
that James Goodwill has published a book titled "Using Tomcat." Although, I
have not purchased the book, I would image that it may become another
(albeit not free) source for Tomcat product documentation.

FYI, Free means free (i.e., you get what you pay for) and at Jcafeinc.com it
works wonderfully for us and the price is right.

kevin

- Original Message -
From: "Nick Stoianov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 3:53 PM
Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS


> Hi guys,
>
> I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
> community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:
>
> 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
> server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people
have
> load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.
>
> 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you
have a
> load balancer in front of the web server.
>
> 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the
> productivity of the web server with at least 1000%
>
> 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts
> have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is
money.
>
> 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of
> the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I
guess
> the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if
nobody
> has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time
> again.
>
> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for
complex
> configurations it sucks.
> If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at
> WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.
>
> Nick

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Krishna Muthyala]

Hey 

I agree with what pete said, for a free product Tomcat
is better than most of the servlet containers. AS for
the documentation goes, yes agree its a bit scanty but
look at the help you get from fellow developers like
us when you post a distress request, do u see such
kind of support anywere else? true you dont get online
telephone support or something like that , but I think
the mailing list is one of the very largely subscribed
to. 

As pete suggested may be you can try to figure out
your problem and then post your solution so that
others benefit, that is the spirit of open source. 

Have a good day , if you dont like tomcat u r free to
try JRUN or weblogic or websphere or Iplanet.. resin 

Goodluck

Kris




--- pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for
> the course with any 
> project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I
> don't recall seeing 
> a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying
> 'Get your complete 
> and comprehensive documentation here'.
> 
> If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone
> from this list to 
> write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for
> less than the price 
> of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about
> that. You would then 
> have both solved your problem, contributed in a
> meaningful way to the 
> community and helped a fellow tomcat user
> financially, instead of 
> finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat
> outperforms, is more 
> stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still
> has no good docs.
> 
> Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how
> does it slow down 
> your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using
> servlets heavily, 
> and this results in max CPU usage or something, then
> apache will 
> struggle to serve requests, but this situation would
> be no different if 
> you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to
> another servlet engine.
> 
> If your virtual hosts have different servlet
> mappings? well, worst case 
> scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or
> better still a GUI 
> or servlet-based Java app that automated these
> configuration chores. You 
> know what you could then do? You could contribute it
> back to the project 
> so that other people can use it to save time.
> 
> And if you have a problem no-one has experienced
> before, and posting to 
> the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose
> these commercial 
> servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free,
> and have perfect 
> tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with
> these servlet 
> engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic
> mailing lists are 
> completely empty, and you can't find a single link
> on google when you 
> type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it.
> 
> If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable
> to configure it 
> correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't
> claim it SUCKs just 
> because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase
> your questions in 
> such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be
> willingly provided.
> 
> 
> 
> -Pete
> 
> > Hi guys,
> > 
> > I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not
> against the open source 
> > community but this is why I think that TOMCAT
> sucks:
> > 
> > 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it
> covers only the basic 
> > server installation. HELL - usually for
> production purposes people have 
> > load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual
> hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially
> if you have a 
> > load balancer in front of the web server. 
> > 
> > 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk)
> sucks. It slows down the 
> > productivity of the web server with at least 1000%
> > 
> > 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go
> through if your virtual hosts 
> > have different servlets mappings. You waste time
> and you know - time is money.
> > 
> > 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in
> the documentation (99% of 
> > the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in
> the documentation)? I guess 
> > the only way is to post in the mailing list. And
> guess what happens if nobody 
> > has experienced this problem before? You have to
> start wasting your time 
> > again.
> > 
> > I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing
> purposes. Trust me - for complex 
> > configurations it sucks. 
> > If you want to use a good production application
> server - take a look at 
> > WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.
> > 
> > Nick
> 
> 
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Dmitri Colebatch]

Nick,

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:53, Nick Stoianov wrote:
> 2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have
> a load balancer in front of the web server.
I find the virtual hosts work fine with the exception of port based virtuals 
(same ip/name different port).  Where exactly are you having trouble?  And 
are you using 3.2.2 or 4?  

> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for
> complex configurations it sucks.
Again, what sort of configuration do you need?  The best thing about open 
source is that if you need something that isn't there, you're free to add it.

let me know what your problem is with virtuals and we'll see if we can work 
it out.  

cheers
dim

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[pete]

If there is a lack of documentation, that is par for the course with any 
project that doesn't have paid technical writers. I don't recall seeing 
a big sign on the front of jakarta.apache.org saying 'Get your complete 
and comprehensive documentation here'.

If you wanted to, you could probably hire someone from this list to 
write up a good configuration guide for tomcat, for less than the price 
of a WebLogic license. Maybe you could think about that. You would then 
have both solved your problem, contributed in a meaningful way to the 
community and helped a fellow tomcat user financially, instead of 
finding, 6 months down the track, that tomcat outperforms, is more 
stable and a lot cheaper than WebLogic, yet still has no good docs.

Your comment about mod_jk is just wrong. Exactly how does it slow down 
your web server by 1000%? I imagine if you are using servlets heavily, 
and this results in max CPU usage or something, then apache will 
struggle to serve requests, but this situation would be no different if 
you ran tomcat standalone, or if you switched to another servlet engine.

If your virtual hosts have different servlet mappings? well, worst case 
scenario you could write a perl or shell script, or better still a GUI 
or servlet-based Java app that automated these configuration chores. You 
know what you could then do? You could contribute it back to the project 
so that other people can use it to save time.

And if you have a problem no-one has experienced before, and posting to 
the mailing list doesn't elicit a reply? I suppose these commercial 
servlet engines are all 100% bugless, trouble free, and have perfect 
tchnical support. Of course nobody has problems with these servlet 
engines, which is why the Resin, JRun and WebLogic mailing lists are 
completely empty, and you can't find a single link on google when you 
type 'resin problem' or 'weblogic problem' into it.

If Tomcat does not fit your needs, or you are unable to configure it 
correctly, by all means, ask for help. But don't claim it SUCKs just 
because you can't solve your own problems, or phrase your questions in 
such an obnoxious manner that help is unlikely to be willingly provided.



-Pete

> Hi guys,
> 
> I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source 
> community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:
> 
> 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic 
> server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have 
> load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost 
>impossible - especially if you have a 
> load balancer in front of the web server. 
> 
> 3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the 
> productivity of the web server with at least 1000%
> 
> 4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts 
> have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money.
> 
> 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of 
> the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess 
> the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody 
> has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time 
> again.
> 
> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex 
> configurations it sucks. 
> If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at 
> WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.
> 
> Nick

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Michael Jennings]

> Hi guys,
>
> I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
> community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:
>
> 1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
> server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people
have
> load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.

As far as I understand it, there is nothing to stop a user from adding
documentation
to the tomcat project themselves. I'm amazed at how good the documentation
is
seeing as how no one was paid to do it.

> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for
complex
> configurations it sucks.
> If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at
> WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

I've found it okay for my purposes. Then again, I've never run into any
major problems
with tomcat and I've never tried to set it up for load balancing.
It's too bad your experience has been negative. Perhaps you could consider
adding
some of the ease-of-use ideas from JRun et al to the tomcat project?

-Mike

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Michael Wentzel]

> 5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the 
> documentation (99% of 
> the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the 
> documentation)? I guess 
> the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what 
> happens if nobody 
> has experienced this problem before? You have to start 
> wasting your time 
> again.

Hello!!! Ever heard of the archives?!?!  Just about any question
you could imagine are out there.  Sometimes you have to work for
your money not just get it handed to you on a silver platter.

> I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust 
> me - for complex 
> configurations it sucks. 
> If you want to use a good production application server - 
> take a look at 
> WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

Weblogic... slower than molasses unless configured just right
and REALLY overkill (especially financially) unless
you have a complex ORB model.
Resin.. Haven't worked with it can't say much.
JRun... Costs money and have to say it quite suspicious that
so many developers are moving from it to tomcat?!?!

---
Michael Wentzel
Software Developer
Software As We Think - http://www.aswethink.com

RE: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Jon Barber]

Well,  funnily enough I've just done some stress testing with our web app
against Apache & Tomcat and Apache & Resin.

With 100 concurrent connections Resin locked up the server (a Solaris 8
Ultra 10) because the mod_caucho uses precess forking which ran out of
space.

mod_jk, on the other hand, with the thread pool set to 500, handled the load
no problem.

So I'm interested in your comments.  Please supply any figures you have - I
(and a very large credit card issuer) would be grateful.

Jon

-Original Message-
From: Nick Stoianov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 09:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: TOMCAT SUCKS


Hi guys,

I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:

1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have
load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.

2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have
a
load balancer in front of the web server.

3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the
productivity of the web server with at least 1000%

4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts
have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is
money.

5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of
the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I
guess
the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if
nobody
has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time
again.

I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for
complex
configurations it sucks.
If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at
WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

Nick

Re: TOMCAT SUCKS

[Tim O'Neil]

At 01:53 PM 6/27/2001, Nick wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source
>community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:
>
>1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic
>server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have
>load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.

The open source community doesn't have the resources necessary to dedicate
a team to maintaining documentation.

>2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a
>load balancer in front of the web server.

In my opinion you shouldn't be using tomcat as your web server.

>3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the
>productivity of the web server with at least 1000%

Not even close to true. You must have one f'd up system.

>4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts
>have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money.

Again, use Apache with tomcat.

>5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of
>the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess
>the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody
>has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time
>again.

See point 1.

>I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex
>configurations it sucks.
>If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at
>WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

Ha ha ha ha... how can you say JRun is a "good production server" with a
strait face? If they spent more time working on the code than using it by
taking all the flat file editing you need to do to configure it (like any
product of this type) and putting it all into a ridiculous gui that doesn't
make that configuring any easier they might shock me by having a real
product on their hands. And don't get me started on the rest of those.

TOMCAT SUCKS

[Nick Stoianov]

Hi guys,

I really think that TOMCAT SUCKS so bad. I'm not against the open source 
community but this is why I think that TOMCAT sucks:

1. The documentation for Tomcat is so bad and it covers only the basic 
server installation. HELL - usually for production purposes people have 
load balancers, virtual hosts, etc.

2. Virtual hosting for Tomcat is almost impossible - especially if you have a 
load balancer in front of the web server. 

3. The integration with apache (using mod_jk) sucks. It slows down the 
productivity of the web server with at least 1000%

4. And guess what is the hell you have to go through if your virtual hosts 
have different servlets mappings. You waste time and you know - time is money.

5. And what if you have a problem that is not in the documentation (99% of 
the problem with Tomcat are not even mentioned in the documentation)? I guess 
the only way is to post in the mailing list. And guess what happens if nobody 
has experienced this problem before? You have to start wasting your time 
again.

I really think that TOMCAT is OK for testing purposes. Trust me - for complex 
configurations it sucks. 
If you want to use a good production application server - take a look at 
WebLogic, Resin, Allaire JRun, etc.

Nick