Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-22 Thread pippin

Perl IS just a scripting language for web pages :evil:


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-21 Thread hawaiijim

Mnyb;538308 Wrote: 
 If would also like to get some senior members interest in this topic,
 maybe it could get patched somehow if you have programming skills and
 can read the code (it is open source after all).
 I don't have programming skills at all so I can only report my
 findings.
 I can not give any constructive help to the developers, I think that
 would be greatly appreciated.
 
 I think my little cowon mp3 player handles shuffle without a problem ?
 So something is not thoroughly designed as it should.

Where is the code available for download? I heard that it's written in
Perl. I'm not a Perl developer, but I'd still love to look and see what
they're doing that is causing performance problems.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-21 Thread Michael Herger
 Where is the code available for download? I heard that it's written in
 Perl. I'm not a Perl developer, but I'd still love to look and see what
 they're doing that is causing performance problems.

Pick the .tgz flavour to get all the code:
http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.5

or use subversion to keep up to date:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/slim/7.5/trunk

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-21 Thread Mnyb

Squeezeboxserver is written in perl ?

Squeezeplay is written in Lua (the software running the controller).

ideally you want to look into both to track issues.


-- 
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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J and assorted amps SiriuS,
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Bedroom/Office: Boom
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Miscellaneous use: Radio (with battery)
I use a Controller various ir-remotes and a Eee-PC with squeezeplay to
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-21 Thread hawaiijim

Mnyb;538514 Wrote: 
 Squeezeboxserver is written in perl ?

It sounded strange to me because I thought Perl was just a scripting
language for Web pages. However 'Wikipedia says'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezebox_Server), The Squeezebox
Server software is written in Perl, and will run on Linux, Microsoft
Windows, Apple Macintosh, BSD platforms.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread hawaiijim

usch;537738 Wrote: 
 they must be doing something really weird, like keeping the entire
 database record for each track in memory.

That sounds to me like it's exactly what they're doing. It's nuts.

I don't know what Squeezebox Server playlists are like, but look at
this m3u playlist created by WinAmp:

 #EXTM3U
 #EXTINF:224,Daft Punk - Harder Better Faster Stronger
 \Documents and Settings\Me\My Documents\My Music\MP3\Daft Punk - Harder
 Better Faster Stronger.mp3
 #EXTINF:199,The Clash - London Calling
 \Documents and Settings\Me\My Documents\My Music\MP3\The Clash - London
 Calling.mp3
 #EXTINF:418,UB40 - Rat In Mi Kitchen
 \Documents and Settings\Me\My Documents\My Music\MP3\UB40 - Rat In Mi
 Kitchen.mp3

That's an entire m3u playlist for three songs. According to its
Windows' properties, it's taking up 410 bytes for the 3 tracks. That
means a 1000 track playlist would likely take up only 133K. Plus, you
don't even need to open the entire playlist in memory simultaneously.
All you have to do is know your place in the file, then seek to the
next item in the playlist and load that item into memory.

I bet they're loading the entire playlist into memory, plus all the
track info for each playlist track, plus album cover images for each
track. You'd have to do something retarded like that to run into
performance problems.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread Phil Leigh

hawaiijim;537920 Wrote: 
 That sounds to me like it's exactly what they're doing. It's nuts.
 ...
 
 I bet they're loading the entire playlist into memory, plus all the
 track info for each playlist track, plus album cover images for each
 track. You'd have to do something retarded like that to run into
 performance problems.

You really know how to win friends and influence people...

You see that nice little display on the screen that shows you the
current playlist (with artwork) that you can scroll up and down and
interact with... guess that needs to be in-memory right? How else is it
going to be displayed on the screen?


-- 
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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread hawaiijim

Phil Leigh;537935 Wrote: 
 You really know how to win friends and influence people...

Sorry, I'm just feeling frustrated and disappointed because I'm not
going to be getting a Squeezebox Touch now.

Phil Leigh;537935 Wrote: 
 You see that nice little display on the screen that shows you the
 current playlist (with artwork) that you can scroll up and down and
 interact with... guess that needs to be in-memory right? How else is it
 going to be displayed on the screen?

The currently selected one needs to be in memory. You may want nearby
ones to be in memory too for someone scrolling up and down nearby items
in the playlist, but there's no reason on Earth to keep hundreds in
memory.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread Phil Leigh

hawaiijim;537941 Wrote: 
 Sorry, I'm just feeling frustrated and disappointed because I'm not
 going to be getting a Squeezebox Touch now.
 
 
 
 The currently selected one needs to be in memory. You probably want
 nearby ones to be in memory too for someone scrolling up and down the
 playlist, but there's no reason on Earth to keep hundreds in memory.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying 100 is a good limit. It's just that
if the list (however long it is) isn't in memory, scrolling is going to
be very slow as the non-visible entries are retrieved from paged memory
on disk (or more realistically, built on the fly). I'm not even sure
that TinySC can use a page file, since there is no guarantee that a
disk will be connected.

Having said all of that, I never use static playlists of any sort
myself - I find it much more fun to use random mix or select
tracks/albums as the mood takes me. I never need the current playlist
to be very big. Random Mix rotates the list anyway...some come on and
others drop off dynamically.

But - I do have some multi-disk albums with more than 100 tracks. If I
wanted to listen to one of those all the way through this would be a
real pain...


Maybe an Enhancement Request is in order...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread bingcrosby

So what will happen if I attach a USB hard drive to a new Touch, and
there is a folder with over 100 songs and a few images in it?  Will the
scan crash?

If it does scan properly, and I then want to play all the tracks in
that folder, would that not work?  Couldn't I just navigate to that
folder and then Play all?

I'm not really interested in creating playlists (I plan to listen to
tracks as if they were on a CD) but I do have some folders with over
100 music files.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread iPhone

hawaiijim;537941 Wrote: 
 Sorry, I'm just feeling frustrated and disappointed because I'm not
 going to be getting a Squeezebox Touch now.

If when using Touch in the TinySC self server mode having a 100 song
playlist limit is your only reason for not buying a Touch, it is my
opinion that you should not be allowed to ever buy a Touch. That's just
plain silly for a reason for not buying a Touch.

First this only applies when using the Touch as a standalone server.
Second there is nothing that says you can't save multiple 100 song
playlists and just load a second saved Playlist when the first finishes
(which by the way on average will be 6 hours later!). How many times do
you listen to music for more then 6 hours straight? And how hard would
it be to queue up a second saved playlist when you happen to listen for
more then 6 hours straight? I will tell, not hard just a few touches on
the display.

Please remember that TinySC is just that, TINY. There is only so much
memory available on the device. Playlists and their associated baggage
(cover art) take up large amounts of assets which is also why the
default in SBS is now factory defaulted at 500 even when running on a
PC. It is done to speed up the WebUI. Yes it is user selectable in SBS,
but the user has the option of dealing with response time at his/her
discretion by how large a playlist they want to use. This is not the
case on the Touch, as it has limited memory available.


-- 
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*iPhone*   
Media Room:
Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr
6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5
Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide
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Living Room:
Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A
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Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM
Bedroom: Second Boom
Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread usch

bingcrosby;538001 Wrote: 
 So what will happen if I attach a USB hard drive to a new Touch, and
 there is a folder with over 100 songs and a few images in it?  Will the
 scan crash?
Scanning has nothing to do with playlists, it just registers all tracks
on the drive in the database so that you can browse by artist, genre,
etc.. There is no limit (at least none I'm aware of) on the number of
tracks in total.

bingcrosby;538001 Wrote: 
 If it does scan properly, and I then want to play all the tracks in that
 folder, would that not work?  Couldn't I just navigate to that folder
 and then Play all?
Pressing Play automatically creates the Now Playing playlist from
the object (folder, album, genre, or whatever) you have selected. It
will add as many tracks as it finds, or until the limit is reached, and
then play that list.

bingcrosby;538001 Wrote: 
 I'm not really interested in creating playlists (I plan to listen to
 tracks as if they were on a CD) but I do have some folders with over
 100 music files.
You can't play anything unless it is on a playlist. :) You don't have
to create playlists yourself, but there is always the list of what is
currently playing which is created automatically when you press play.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread hawaiijim

iPhone;538007 Wrote: 
 If when using Touch in the TinySC self server mode having a 100 song
 playlist limit is your only reason for not buying a Touch, it is my
 opinion that you should not be allowed to ever buy a Touch. That's just
 plain silly for a reason for not buying a Touch.
 
 First this only applies when using the Touch as a standalone server.

Since I only want to use the Touch as a standalone server, that's like
saying this only applies every time you want to use it.

iPhone;538007 Wrote: 
 Second there is nothing that says you can't save multiple 100 song
 playlists and just load a second saved Playlist when the first finishes
 (which by the way on average will be 6 hours later!). How many times do
 you listen to music for more then 6 hours straight? And how hard would
 it be to queue up a second saved playlist when you happen to listen for
 more then 6 hours straight? I will tell, not hard just a few touches on
 the display.

The Current Playlist can never be more than 100 songs, so I'm guessing
that if you want to select a folder to play, you'll get the same 100
songs in that folder every time. That's just lame.

Also, I would want large m3u playlists, and then just randomize play
within a playlist.

iPhone;538007 Wrote: 
 Please remember that TinySC is just that, TINY. There is only so much
 memory available on the device. Playlists and their associated baggage
 (cover art) take up large amounts of assets ...

Again, the Squeezebox Server could have easily minimized resources by
handling playlists intelligently. I'm looking at a screenshot now, and
a playlist displays only three items for each track: the song title,
the band name, and an album cover thumbnail image. In addition, the
playlist needs to know the location of each song. With the exception of
the cover art thumbnail images, that type of data does NOT use up heavy
system resources. As I pointed out above, 1000 songs would take up only
133K.

It's almost certainly the cover art thumbnail images that are taking up
the heavy system resources. If system resources are that strained,
thumbnail images could have been left out of Touch playlists without
anyone noticing or caring. WinAmp doesn't display thumbnail images for
playlists and nobody ever complains. Neither does RealPlayer. The only
music software I'm aware of that displays cover art in playlist mode is
iTunes.

Even if cover art thumbnail images are to be displayed, the TinySC
easily could have cached only nearby cover art in memory. (For example,
10 tracks in each direction plus the 5 tracks currently displayed.) If a
user scrolls wildly, then just load images like a web browser does.
There would be no delay in scrolling the playlist, just in loading
cover art, but users could then have huge playlists.

In addition to loading track name, band name, track location, and
unnecessary cover art into memory, the TinySC may be loading all track
info into memory (i.e. stuff that doesn't get displayed in playlists).
If the TinySC is doing that, then it would be a much bigger strain on
memory while also being unnecessary.

Finally, I ask again, does the iPod have a 100 track (or similar)
limitation for its current playlist? It almost certainly is far more
resource-constrained than the Squeezebox Touch. If it doesn't have such
a limitation, then the lack of resources argument is pure bunk.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-20 Thread Mnyb

Sadly this is not a Tiny Server only problem. It really is a problem
for every one of us.

Try to shuffle a large playlist when you have an Squeezeplay device
Touch or Radio as player.

It's very very inefficient, my little via 1.2gHz based fanless server.
can juggle 2000 - 4000 track playlist for my ip3k based players like
boom or SB3.

Just toggle the different shuffle modes.
And tag along on my bug here:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16089
I'm on 7.6 which is beta, I would appreciate if someone with the
official build could confirm.

But still go into 100% cpu meltdown with 1/10 of it when playing on a
Touch.

Note that I have the web-UI open so it still relocates bunches of Thumb
images for the browser interface.

This goes back to.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10889

which was filed in January 2009 So the Devs don't really see the
problem for what it is. This has been known for 15 months now.

If would also like to get some senior members interest in this topic,
maybe it could get patched somehow if you have programming skills and
can read the code (it is open source after all).
I don't have programming skills at all so I can only report my
findings.
I can not give any constructive help to the developers, I think that
would be greatly appreciated.

I think my little cowon mp3 player handles shuffle without a problem ?
So something is not thoroughly designed as it should.


-- 
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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J and assorted amps SiriuS,
Classe'Primare and Dynadio speakers (including a pair of Contour 4 )
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Miscellaneous use: Radio (with battery)
I use a Controller various ir-remotes and a Eee-PC with squeezeplay to
control this

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-19 Thread hawaiijim

usch;535674 Wrote: 
 But be aware that - according to the release notes - playlists on the
 Touch are limited to 100 items anyway.

The Touch only allows playlists of 100 songs? That seems rather
limiting.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-19 Thread hawaiijim

OK, I see 'here'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Squeezebox_Touch_as_a_Home_Music_Server#No_Configurable_Settings)
that when using the Touch as a home music server, The maximum playlist
length is capped at 100 tracks. I don't quite understand exactly what
this means.

I assume it's saying that if you have a Squeezebox Touch and a
Squeezebox Radio, that the maximum number of tracks you can listen to
on the Radio (via the Touch) is 100.

However, does that also mean that if I only have a Squeezebox Touch,
and I listen to songs stored on SD card, that my maximum SD card
playlist will be 100?

Could someone with a Squeezebox Touch please confirm whether you can
have playlists longer than 100 songs when playing songs stored on USB
drive or SD card?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-19 Thread hawaiijim

JJZolx;537718 Wrote: 
 Not also.  It's describing exactly the scenario you describe.  It's a
 cap when using the built-in server of the Touch.  If you're using
 another server running on a computer or NAS then the cap is whatever is
 set on that server (which defaults to 500, but can be increased.)

Yes also. People who have never had a Squeezebox before don't know how
the Squeezebox works. Usually when I think of a server, I think of it
in terms of client-server, as in one device connecting to another. So
the question is whether the built-in server is what the Touch uses when
it is directly playing songs stored on itself. I guess the answer is
yes.

JJZolx;537718 Wrote: 
 Yes, it's limited to 100 tracks when using the built-in server with a
 USB drive or SD card.  I think this is due to memory problems with the
 Touch when running the server.

Wow. I mean ... wow. If I don't want to keep my PC running all the
time, so store songs directly on the Touch instead, I'll be limited to
playlists of 100 songs. Really? A playlist is just text. I can't see
how that uses up much memory. I think Logitech just lost a sale. Wow.
Lame.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-19 Thread hawaiijim

Mnyb;537726 Wrote: 
 As soon as I involve my Touch or Radio ca 170 songs makes it totally
 unresponsive 100% cpu until you won't care anymore the whole system
 just dies.

I'm starting to get the sense that the Touch is a giant software bug
that also plays music.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-19 Thread usch

JJZolx;537718 Wrote: 
 Yes, it's limited to 100 tracks when using the built-in server with a
 USB drive or SD card.
Is there at least an option to remove played tracks automatically from
the current playlist so that you can keep adding albums as it plays, or
do you need to remove 15 tracks or so manually before you can add
another album?

JJZolx;537718 Wrote: 
 I think this is due to memory problems with the Touch when running the
 server.
Actually that's something I don't quite get. The current playlist can
only contain tracks from the database, each of which is identified by a
unique ID which is a long int. 100 long ints take up 400 bytes. I can
hardly believe that they could not afford 4k which would accomodate
1000 tracks, so they must be doing something really weird, like keeping
the entire database record for each track in memory.


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[SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread tank121

I have now successfully test 2 USB hard drives and I'm going with my
500gb
Iomega 2.5 drive. Cost £55.00 from Comet.

With the drive connected directly to the Touch is it possible to build
up on the fly playlists from within the Touch ?

If so, what is the easiest way to do it ?

Thanks


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread tank121

If using my Logitech Harmony remote or original Tocuh remote is there a
way to do it ?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread toby10

tank121;535642 Wrote: 
 If using my Logitech Harmony remote or original Tocuh remote is there a
 way to do it ?

Can't speak for the Harmony, but the Touch IR remote will work using
the + button and/or the arrows.

I'd suggest, in the beginning, make a bogus-test Playlist and start
adding to it and saving it via different methods so you understand how
all of these different methods can function. 

You might be able to copy your current SBS Playlists over to Touch's
USB, or somehow manipulate such Playlists to work on Touch's USB.
I never tried moving Playlists to Touch.  I did try moving my
Favorites.opml folder over to Touch's USB, but it didn't work.   :(


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread usch

If I ever buy a Touch (that is, if it becomes available at all in
Germany, and at a less ridiculous price than what is currently
advertised on the Logitech site), reversing the touch and touch+hold
actions when building playlists will probably be my first lua hack. :)

But be aware that - according to the release notes - playlists on the
Touch are limited to 100 items anyway.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread JJZolx

Is there any way to re-order items in the Current Playlist on the Touch,
as there is in the web interface?  Without that, I would think creating
playlists on the Touch would be even more tedious.


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Jim

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Playlists when using USB drive

2010-04-15 Thread usch

JJZolx;535675 Wrote: 
 Is there any way to re-order items in the Current Playlist on the Touch,
 as there is in the web interface?

The only way I have found so far (with Desktop SqueezePlay) is the Play
Next option from the context menu, one track at a time. For example, if
you want to move a track from position 37 to position 25 in the current
playlist, you have to scroll to position 24, hit Play, scroll to
position 37, bring up the context menu, and hit Play Next.


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