Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
The European Commission is a known slave of the establishment. "European Commission enabling blockade of WikiLeaks by U.S. hard-right Lieberman/King, contrary to European Parliament’s wishes" 27 November 2012 https://wikileaks.org/European-Commission-enabling.html They will use this as an excuse to delete and try to occult messages of alert about establishment's abuse of power. That's right, in the surface they will lie straight out and say "we are all for peace" when in reality all they care is to keep you controlled, stupid and docile. So they can they advantage of you.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
This is a major clamp down on Freedom of expression and joins the Directive on Terrorism: The European Parliament against our freedoms https://www.laquadrature.net/en/terrorisme-directive-european-parliament-against-liberties
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"This law is yet another step further into shaping public opinion & controlling dissent" [...] >"I fear that this law will mostly target activist that fight for justice or try and raise public awareness (many a times public resistance is towards these very same corporate interests)" A very justified fear based on past experience. Here's a little transcript from CentaurX00's video link: From 01:43 to 02:36 "At a public campus in California, on Constitution Day in 2013 (September 17, 2013). A student who also happens to be a decorated military veteran, was told he can not hand out the Constitution to his fellow students. The objection from the university was NOT ideological it was out-of-control bureaucracy. That same day another college student in that same state was told he can not protest NSA surveillance outside of a tiny "free speech zone", an area that comprise only 1.3% of the campus. Months later class students in Hawaii where told both they could not hand out the Constitution to their fellow students. And that the could not protest NSA policies outside the school's "free speech zone"." This law is yet another step further into shaping public opinion & controlling dissent
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I want to remark something from your first link >"despite a lengthy negotiation between companies and the Commission, “hate speech” remains vaguely-defined. Companies have been tasked with taking the lead on determining what constitutes hate speech, with potentially disastrous results." >"speech that is permitted by companies’ terms of service is often removed, with users given few paths to recourse. Users report experiencing bans from Facebook for 24 hours to up to 30 days if the company determines they’ve violated the Community Standards—which, in many cases, the user has not. Requiring companies to review complaints within 24 hours will almost surely result in the removal of speech that would be legal in Europe." They will use this new tool given by the EU to remove pacific, well thought, free speech. Take a screencap of this, it WILL happen because YOU (generic you) allowed. (With "YOU" I mean generic you, meaning, everyone who did not act. Not you Mangy Dog, you're pretty cool :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Hello Good Morning Trisquelians ;-) I watched this thread with my coffe & croissants yesterday morning and well back to it this morning..;-) so i'll just do a " Revue de presse" EFF on the subjet 18hrs ago https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/06/european-commissions-hate-speech-deal-companies-will-chill-speech European Press Release Data http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1937_en.htm http://www.euractiv.com/section/social-europe-jobs/opinion/hate-speech-in-the-european-parliament/ European Court of Justice of Human Rights http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Hate_speech_ENG.pdf This law is yet another step further into shaping public opinion & controlling dissent This law encourages IT companies to to educate and raise awareness with their users about the types of content not permitted under their rules and community guidelines. The use of the notification system could be used as a tool to do this I defend Freedom and value the right to free speech for anyone whatever his or her opinion I fear that this law will mostly target activist that fight for justice or try and raise public awareness (many a times public resistance is towards these very same corporate interests) ...uh cofees cold ...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
technically crap isn't a swear. now if i said damn, that would be a swear and the list goes on and on... but really, this thread was bound to cause problems given the video's author, lets just drop it kay?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
So, just to clarify, are you a moderator? I can't tell who the moderators are (if there even are any), and how people become one. Since quite a few people here are advocating the removal of this thread to the troll hole (or maybe even complete deletion), would it not be reasonable to say there is a consensus? The thread is very long (it's the 16th longest thread in a mere 24 hours) so they may miss your post about getting +7 rating. Je ne sais pas :-(
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I was saying it in jest but even if they did not bother to read them it is pretty standard practice among internet communities not to tolerate discriminatory language, not to make off-topic discussions etc., so obviously they should have assumed that those rules apply.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
There are people who vote -1 too, and if there is a +1 and a -1 that then becomes 0 and there is no record that somebody voted. My earlier call for a vote had this in mind. If I received a +7 despite the fact that there are those voting -1, then that was an adequate basis for my working to shut this down. In this case, I want to make it crystal clear that I am voting for this thread to end. It is a little silly, since I've called for this from the beginning so everybody knows that this is my advice. Still I thought CalmStorm put things well, and I wanted to show specifically that I am in agreement. Are you?? This is my last post in this thread. Attack if you want, I won't defend. I won't even read it!
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
-1 the reply button is for comments. The +1 and -1 is for voting. Weren't you so careful to follow the guidelines, rules, etc?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Would you mind on point out what's so wrong with the original post? The only reason this thread got derailed was because root_vegetable point out who was the author of the video I posted in a low attempt to disrupt the thread by dragin it into off-topic chitchat. But that's not what the thread is about and I would expect root_vegetable to at least appologise for that. And I agree, I agree that you should stop using such bad words like "knock this crap off" because it's bad for the community. Please stop.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I see what you mean. But I don't see how hate speech has even a remote chance to be correct, anywhere, at any time. Let me rephrase that: I don't see how "attacks on a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation" can potentially be the correct way to go, in any context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech I'm still thinking about this by the way. But right now I don't see how hate speech deserves a free pass. Specially when seeing the amount of it on the web.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
+1
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Well, I suppose to understand Marxism you should read the Communist Manifesto. When you read it, don't forget that it was written in the 19th century (indeed, Marx and Engels thought it needed updating, especially notes on literature at the time). It is quite interesting to read, and is pretty short. It is relatively easy to find Marx's work in stores, and many charity shops/second-hand book stores, but it is also public domain, for example here is the Communist Manifesto on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31193/31193-h/31193-h.htm (note that when Marx refers to the party he means a group of likeminded people, not an organised political organisation, like say the Green Party or the Social Democratic Party). To understand libertarian socialism you could read some books by Noam Chomksy. A rather long introduction to this is found in How the world works which is a collection of Chomksy's speeches and interviews put into a more readable format, you can probably find it in a book store. A list of his works to which links are provided if there is the full text or a sample provided: https://chomsky.info/books/. If you go to the homepage and select 'articles' it has them ordered by date, and most if not all of them on the website. Also of good note is this article, it has a link to a PDF of Powers and Prospects: http://www.openculture.com/2014/05/read-9-books-by-noam-chomsky-free-online.html (that website is great in general and has links to many freely available works of many authors, such as short stories, interviews, and video content).
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
What EU law? I still don't see any source, therefore I can hardly judge whether it's right or wrong.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Since I'm blinded by your brilliance (at avoiding to present sources), please help me find actual proof of what you're saying about that EU bill. Because I still don't see a damn source. Since you want to bring RMS in: When people talk about punishing "hate speech", they advocate censorship of opinions. Censorship is dangerous to society and democracy. And I can't disagree with that, yet I'd tell him that unrestricted free speech is just as dangerous to society and democracy. https://stallman.org/archives/2016-mar-jun.html#3_June_2016_%28Censorship_in_the_UK%29 And here's a source about that EU thing you're talking about: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/fundamental-rights/files/hate_speech_code_of_conduct_en.pdf You remind me of that Demolition Man movie which is Manichean (and extreme) as possible, in freedom and its opposite. It's all about balance, it's not all or nothing. It's contextual, not the same concept you apply "as is" any time, anywhere. The IT Companies also share the European Commission 's and EU Member States' com mitment to tackle illegal hate speech online. Illegal hate speech, as defined by the Framework Decision 2008/913/JHA of 28 November 2008 on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law and national laws transpos ing it, means all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin. The IT Companies and the European Commis sion also stress the need to defend the right to freedom of expression, which, as the European Court of Human Rights has stated, “is applicable not only to "information" or "ideas" that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of i ndifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population” . 1 This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What matters is HOW they intend to do it. That's the difference between theory (or good intentions) and practice.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
just do it anyways, for the sake of ruben and the community. don't let this flame war continue, please?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yet they are there nonetheless. Don't try to compare this to the book-length draconian EULAs that companies like amazon have. Nobody reads those. This is a handful of sentences in large, bold, font, that are written in clear and simple language. You read them but you don't remember--or choose not to remember. They are in your face when you sign up. Then, of course, there is the sentence in huge font at the top of the forum main page: "Please read and follow the Community Guidelines." That is so large and in your face that even I can see it from under this rock! So the trite comparison to the enormous EULAs of the mega corporations, simply doesn't apply.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I can see where you are coming from but I think it is reasonable for websites to have community rules that ban inciting violence against minorities for instance and advocation of discrimination. I have looked at this EU ruling and most of it seems quite reasonable. C'est la vie...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
that would be because most people expect lawyer speak guidelines...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
If I was a mod, I would have closed this thread a while ago, then again though, I am not and thank goodness. I have made similar errors in the past. still though, this isn't good for our community so, I think we should stop talking about this. okay?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Nobody reads the terms and conditions no matter how short they are... You live under a rock or something?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
well from what I remember he was represented by animal farm as being snowball the guy who wanted a good leadership. and stalin was of course represented by Napoleon. my bad though I haven't read up on history for a while, I may have gotten things very much confused. I was under the impression he wanted freedom and that was why I pointed him towards sanders. But, thanks for correcting me. so tell me what is socialism then? I thought I knew and now I don't
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
lol You didn't agree to the guideline?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Of course there are and should be limitations on free speech-- hate speech isn't one of them, however.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
We have free speech in principal, but this isn't what this thread ended up being about. It became about many other unrelated things. Personally I think the EU ruling could prove impractical but... que sera, sera.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
That's doesn't change the fact that this EU law (as many others) is just plain wrong.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Well that's just a matter of opinion, and we'll just have to agree or disagree.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
The free software movement (free in bold because you seem to be legally blind) cares about freedom of computing, and freedom in general too. Freedom of speech is something rms (for instance) has a long history of advocacy. Also, when SOPA and PIPA came people had fear that it could become an instrument of censorship and even more massive surveillance. Just the same as I'm fearing too this could become in a future.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech See the limitations part. Also I find interesting that the right to privacy (which I value a whole lot) is a restriction of free speech. Depending on the context (as nearly always), I'm perfectly fine with that. Allowing unrestricted free speech is at least as dangerous as heavily restricted free speech. Like many things in real life, it's too complex to just be either all black or all white, but more like shades of grey.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
"The forum / mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Trisquel." How do you reconcile the existence of this thread given that you promised to abide by the above guideline? Don't tell me, "well, son, you haven't been around enough to know that those guidelines don't mean a thing!" I'm not interested in how old you think I am, or how long I have been part of the Trisquel community. I don't care whether or not the decision about this thread is consistent with every other thread in the history of these forums. We have guidelines and I object that this thread is not in accordance with those guidelines.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
You mean those things about copyright infringement and intellectual property? By definition, they fit free software way more than that "imaginary" EU bill. But let's say it does belong in the main forum for a second, because I'd like you to answer the other part of my statement. I say "Imaginary" because this is the 3rd time I'm pointing out that the discussion revolves around nothing concrete. Would you care to provide some actual sources? Because I don't see the point of going on if it's a philosophical debate about the concept of free speech.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
That's not how it works, you don't move things around by votes. Mods move things when they decided that some topic is off-topic. I myself criticized some cat thread some crazy troll made once, and it got moved to the troll hole. People here (way older than you) will remember. And I remember and participated in the multiple thread that condemned PIPA, SOPA, etc. So I have the experience to know that this EU law is of Trisquel community's concern.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
lol, I almost hate to see this thread go, since your posts are so entertaining root_vegetable I can work on getting this thread moved to the Troll Hole, but I would like some consensus: A choice of +1 means you agree that this thread should be moved to the Troll Hole. It looks like there are about a dozen people in this thread, if I get >= +7 I will try and get this thing moved.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
"I agree [with you, let's stop this thread]" "...Now let's back to the main topic [and not stop this thread!]." Oh, I see. You agree with me about stopping the thread, and then immediately try to restart it!!! I'd actually be offended at your calling me a liar if you weren't so hypocritical. Notice I didn't mention you at all until you responded to my call to end the thread with 'ok, let us start all of this over again from the beginning' So I was not lying at all. Pay attention now as I explain it slowly: 1.) You singled yourself out as a troll and 2.) I told you to go away. Q.E.D.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yea, I'm against laws that prohibit hate-speech or try to regulate it. The EU's bill sounds terrible to me...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
The sad thing is that these threads never get moved to the troll hole. I think there are no moderators on these forums beyond people putting too many '-1' votes on a comment, which is open to abuse and personal feuds arguably more than a defined moderation system. I don't know who the moderators are, maybe we should vote for some people to do this. At any rate most people are abiding by the rules, until we all get carried away (I got carried away admittedly) and start these extremely polarised discussions. Maybe it is a social experiment by Richard Stallman, fancying himself as a sort of benevolent Mark Zuckerberg, to see how internet minarchy plays out. Maybe after the impending nuclear apocalypse the internet will become entirely that, hosted by our benevolent robot masters who will arrive from outer space, guarding the last remenants of humanity to post unironic memes with Comic Sans fonts, and sharing those excessive Mukbang videos. I feel so bad now for writing all this polarised stuff if it is driving people away from the community. Come back folks! We should behave better.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"GO AWAY!!!" >"I wasn't singling you out Don't you love people who just lie straight out? I don't know why you have it against me and only me. But I'm not about to capitulate. This EU rule is not much different than SOPA, PIPA and the other harmful proposals that we condemn right here in the Trisquel forum (of course you don't remember because you weren't here then).
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
"So instead of calling me names you should show some respect." You are receiving respect in proportion to your actions. Act like a troll, get treated like a troll. You are continuing to provoke people with this topic, in the wrong forum. So my comments were appropriate. If you have been here longer, then you should know better! You should lead by example. So this makes your actions worse, and therefore more deserving of my statements. But I wasn't singling you out--you singled yourself out!
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Does SOPA and PIPA has neither to has anything with trisquel? Because I remember very well that people here could talks abut that endlessly.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Is this all you got about this law? Any source, something? Anyway, I second this thread to at least be moved to the Troll hole. It has nothing to do with Trisquel or free software.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
If you are having trouble create a new forum topic and elaborate further. At least it would be related to free software, unlike this topic.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I've been here for way more time than you, I've probably helped more the cause of free software in all these years more than you. So instead of calling me names you should show some respect.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
hate speech is defined by the EU as including ‘incitement to hatred’, which is both circular and so vague as to mean almost anything. What this means is lawyers can use this loophole to give their own interpretation on whats hate speech and use it on their advantage to ban almost anything. That would be the legal system being used (again) for the interests of a few rather than truth and justice for everyone.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
The second video is featured on the so-called "Prager University". It is about as reputable an 'educational institution' as Trump University, a pathetic commercial entity offering "business education", which is known to bully people into blowing all their money on worthless courses in real estate to get rich quick. TrumpU takes after Trump himself, it seems. "PragerU" is run by the far-right talk-show host Dennis Prager (or at least is tarnished with his name), a man who likes to peddle the narrative that there is an attack on religious freedom, i.e. the freedom to oppress others. This view is exacerbated by campaigns by secular organisations to reduce the state funding of religion. The video takes a similar line. It says that there are efforts to ban speech that is considered "hurtful" and "hateful", and the video specifially mentions the efforts to prevent "freedom of religion". This is the most utter crap. For a start, it ignores the history of Europe, where religion (the dominant force being Christianity) has been part of the general oppression of freedom of expression for centuries. Look at Spain, with the Spanish Inquisition (and the Catholic Church's alliance with Franco's Fascists), and Nazi Germany's pact with the Catholic Church to protect itself. Look more generally at the denial of women's reproductive rights and rights to schooling. It is just the most stupid argument. "Sensitivity-based censorship" is presented with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. There are efforts to separate the Church and State further in many European countries, but religious leaders enjoy little fear of oppression and censorship at the hands of the state. There is healthy debate about the role of religion in modern times, and religious leaders are welcomed to express their views in throughout the media. Religion is largely respected, and it is declining. However, this represents Christianity, as the dominant religion. Islam is not widespread (although it has a wide presence) and in recent months has seen backlash and attacks by far-right thugs. We should of course not that this does not mean an attack on freedom of religion! People are still allowed to express themselves freely. I think that the emphasis on "criticism of religion" is perhaps support for Marine Le Pen (in the video, the words "criticism of religion" are put over France) who frames anti-Muslim rhetoric as "criticism of religion". There's something insidious about that whole video... Now it attacks 'Political Correctness'! It's such a load of crap. This leads back to the issues of freedom of speech in general vs. the moderation on non-public forums. It's all a load of double-standards anyway. American TV won't allow swearing (they say 'darn it' far too much) but they are happy to show graphic images of dead people in far-off lands. They frame accusations of a general criminality among black people as polite 'analysis' of events, and blame illegal immigrants for undercutting the American wages. They talk about the 'political correctness' at American colleges and universities, but this is generally about the supposed "suppression" of activities that are nationalist. That video gives several examples but does not give us the full story, or even links to news articles about them. The video says that "few conservative speakers are invited to speak at colleges, lest they be 'disinvited' later". This is, again, a theme of this comment thread. There is not an attack on free speech. The conservative speakers could go to speak wherever will take them, voice their opinion on the internet, or in the conservative mass media. It is not an attack on free speech to no-platform someone. As for trigger warnings, I think they can sometimes be used to the extreme, but often they are reasonable. For example, the comic book 'Tintin in the Congo' was only recently translated into English. As Tintin books are generally read by children, a warning was written saying that it reflected the society in Belgium at the time, which was supportive of the brutal dictatorship in Central Africa, and as a result some of the material in the book is shocking by today's standards. What if that warning was not included? It might upset some children that African people are portrayed in the fashion they are in the book. The example of the trigger warning in the Great Gatsby perhaps goes a little too far but perhaps a note in the preface about it reflecting mysoginistic attitudes of the time would not be unreasonable. To be honest though, the fact that so much mysoginy still exists, which the video completely brushes over, would make it seem not particularly shocking in my opinion. I think there is a certain irony that the video is attacking trigger warnings when these are reasonable under freedom of speech... if that is, indeed what the video cares about, rather than the freedo
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
"Now let's back to the main topic." You are not listening troll. Maybe louder will help?? GO AWAY!!!
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I agree. root_vegetable and loldier has drag me and other in this thread way too off-topic. Now let's back to the main topic. Which is EU with a new law that could and can be used to control public opinion directly in the EU and outside too indirectly.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Last I checked, there are hundreds of people who are viewing this site at any point in time. I wouldn't blame any of them for rejecting this community for its inability to control itself from having these polarizing discussions about politics and hate speech and the like. For those whose attitude is: "Good, f*** 'em, they can't stand the heat--get out of the kitchen!!". Realize this: Trisquel is a very tiny community that needs growth and can't afford to lose people that like Trisquel, but dislike unpleasant, unnecessary, totally out-of-place, political debates. We all agreed on the terms of using these forums. While I know it is fun to be an anarchist, let's stop feeding this thread let it crawl into the corner and die like it deserves. IMHO :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Serving as an elector does not automatically translate as being a member of the same party or holding all the same views as that party. Anyone wishing to run for office needs electors to be eligible. When Pulley ran in 1980, Sanders was actually an independent having left the (socialist) Liberty Union Party in 1977. No doubt he felt Pulley was closer to his thinking than either Carter or Nixon. I suspect Duke's association with the KKK is always brought up by people because of what that organisation did in contrast to what the SWP or LUP ever achieved in US politics. Sanders I believe became independent due to the inactivity of the LUP ironically when he was in fact the chairman.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I think you are banking that I didn't watch your video. I wish I didn't because it is a load of utter crap, but there we have it. I will tell you why it qualifies as hate speech. He starts with "The Zionist media". This is to feed into his racist narratives of his other videos, that there is a conspiracy be Jews to take over the world. It was the same narrative peddled by the Nazis, and David Duke's other Holocaust-denying associates, such as the Ku Klux Klan, who are very fond of using Nazi imagery. "The reason why the Zionists who have so much ungodly influence in the American media, and they've got the politicians in their back pockets, and they've got the big banks and the big money who controls the politicians... Goldman Sachs, they control the Federal Reserve, they control the World Bank..." This feeds into the narrative that the Jews rule the world, are trying too, or are extremely close to doing so. It is simply not true. He keeps mentioning the "pernicious Zionist influence". It is just a load of rubbish. It is convenient for people like Duke to use the injustice of the Israeli occupation to peddle their conspiracy about Jews, but they don't, for instance, criticise the mass-incarceration of black people, which they support because they are a bunch of white supremacists, and justify violence and murder of these people in the past and present based on religious references and pseudo-scientific doctrines, the same that justified slavery and imperialism. Examining the video, it becomes clear that Duke probably doesn't care all that much about these people dying, or at least has convinced himself of it because he wants to justify his conspiracies about "Zionists". Hate speech is justification of violence and stigma. Duke wants to create stigma and anti-Semitism, so this qualifies as hate speech. It is disguised so that at first it might seem justified, but anyone watching the whole video can probably tell that the conclusion of the video is pretty outrageous and designed to forment tensions. It is thus hate speech, and I am pretty surprised it is still available. It just goes to show that the ferociously-authoritarian EU is really not doing its job, is it? Note, there are legitimate criticisms of Israel. It is just that this is used as part of his hate speech. The irony is that people like Duke say that it is not anti-Semetic to criticise Israel, when he is deliberately confusing the two issues of the State of Israel and Jewish people to justify his anti-Semitism.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Indeed. The Kochs and Goldman Sachs are not interested in your liberty, in the meaning the word carried before it was hijacked in the insane dash to weaponize economics. Conservative libertarians took a decent ideology (although ideologies are, after critical analysis, or, even more devastating, deconstruction, the ideas of dead guys, males, mostly dead white males. dead rich white males - I won't call them men - they're monster boys in adult bodies) and spun it into neoliberalism, so, about 36 years later, the Sixth Mass Extinction could come for our species any day now. This is because this sort of libertarianism thinks it deserves our money, so it does the old fashioned thing and steals it. The overexploitation of the life system under this harebrained ideology gone mad had 150 species per day going extinct a while back, according to Guy McPherson, an acacemic field ecologist before he headed back to the land, knows these things. We're in a really dumb predicament. No one ever said the aristocracy was intelligent. Descartes, an aristocrat, could dissect a live, unsedated dog and swear it felt no pain, when the scientific method of which he is remembered as a founder was purportedly based on observation, on objective observation. That dumb crap, masquerading as thought, remains a part of the basis of western culture. In the words of my friends in grad school, we're fucked, since we didn't stop polluting the life system and creating one desert after another 30 years ago like James Hansen told Congress we had to do. On that happy note, I'll step away from the lectern, after one last remark. Technology observes real reality, the one humans did not create, no better than Descartes. Go Bernie! On 06/03/2016 05:22 AM, dguth...@posteo.net wrote: Libertarianism got hijacked by the tight long ago. They misinterpret freedom from oppression as freedom from regulations. It's pretty creepy. There are no rightwing anarchists, as capitalism only exists with the support of the state. They just want to shrink the bits of government they don't like so they can opress and get rich off poor people. It's creepy. Private power is worse than public power which at least has some element of control over it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
https://xkcd.com/1049/
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>Have you evidence to support your statement that Sanders is a communist? Sanders served as an elector for the 1980 Socialist Workers Part nominee Adrew Pulley And don't let the name fool you. They are openly communist and Marxist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_%28United_States%29 >"Plus nobody calls Duke a communist either as you say" I imagine you're responding to this part: >"For example Bernie sanders is a former communist, but no one call him that all the time as they do with David Duke" I actually meant to say: "For example Bernie sanders is a former communist, but no one call him that. While David Duke is called "former Ku Klux Klan" all the time." Sorry for the little mistake.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Ugh... Don't defend Lenin, ever. There's little that was good about him, for example he opposed free speech, presided over political violence, and destroyed any force that dared oppose him, like the Ukranian Free Territory and the Kronstadt rebellion. He was awful in the end. Not as awful as the later rule of Stalin, granted, but not worth defending at all. Oppression is oppression no matter how it might look from the outside... Also, Lenin did not found socialism, just the ideology of Marxist-Leninism. There have always been social movements, and things like Marxist-Leninism subjugate rather than liberate. It's socialism without liberty, if it's socialism at all, and that's frankly horrible. Socialism isn't really something you can say was "founded", it is a series of leftwing movements that were formalised into specific ideologies, for example there is libertarian socialism at the sane time as Marxism (indeed, the anarchist Mikhail Bakunin opposed Marx at the 1872 Hague Congress). If you want the good part of socialism read the works of Noam Chomsky: https://chomsky.info/ https://chomsky.info/books/ There's no point sticking to dogma written a century ago, when the world has changed so much. It leads to the cult of the leader, etc.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Good point: Respect among community members Discrimination -- Do not discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, ideology, ideas, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Profanity -- Do not curse or use hard language here. Social norms differ from place to place; hard language can deter people from our community. Incivility -- Do not insult others here. Disagree and challenge ideas instead. Does that go against free-speech? If it does, I'm fine with that. I definitely don't mind giving so much voice to intolerant propaganda. I mean What's happening in Croatia or Poland is not something I want to encourage in the name of free speech. It makes me think about that Voltaire quote. Wait a second: if you want to quote Voltaire on free speech, here’s something that he did write once, in his 1763 Treatise on Toleration: “The supposed right of intolerance is absurd and barbaric. It is the right of the tiger; nay, it is far worse, for tigers do but tear in order to have food, while we rend each other for paragraphs.” That’s something probably everybody on the Internet could stand to think about, ourselves included.if you want to quote Voltaire on free speech, here’s something that he did write once, in his 1763 Treatise on Toleration: “The supposed right of intolerance is absurd and barbaric. It is the right of the tiger; nay, it is far worse, for tigers do but tear in order to have food, while we rend each other for paragraphs.” That’s something probably everybody on the Internet could stand to think about, ourselves included. http://www.themarysue.com/voltaire-beatrice-evelyn-hall/ On the other hand, if it's not clearly defined, it's clearly a censorship tool. So, what about the actual text? How loosely defined is it, in practice?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yeah, Costa Rica to be more specific. ¡vivan siempre el trabajo y la paz!
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Have you even watch the video? In the video you see a video that got censured not because it was hate speech, but simply because interest. "UN Envoy Cries for Gaza Children" Also you can see more people that got silenced simply because interests in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vVohGWhMWs You should watch this peaceful free speech while you can, you don't know when it will get banned too in France.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
to everyone who says this belongs in the troll hole, I SECOND THAT MOTION! also, don't bring religion into this, danieru, when people are bad it has more to do with their own mind and hearts than anything else. And also, you remind me of me more than three years ago when that was all I was, angry, vengeful and cynical. Please do not waste ten more years of your life being that way. I really do think you need to calm down. If this becomes a problem in the future and threatens free software, I am sure people will get up in arms about it. People don't remain ignorant forever...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Do you live in America? If so, why do you reserve such bad words for the EU, even though it doesn't affect you? And if you live in Europe, why question whether user Loldier lives in America?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I would +10 if i could.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Why are you debating with me? I clearly stated what the European Union is doing is silly... they are censoring themselves! xD
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Central America*
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Have you evidence to support your statement that Sanders is a communist? He describes his politcial views as democratic socialism which is not the same as communism. You may want to look up the difference. Plus nobody calls Duke a communist either as you say. His views are actually more aligned with the hard right than the hard left.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Let's look at this from a different angle: Just because a private property is located on and accessible from a public road, doesn't mean you can enter that property. If you enter that property, that does not mean that you are free to do as you please. It is still private property. For example, the entrance to my home can be accessed from a public road. If I let you in my house and say, "You can stay as long as you are civil", then you better be civil or you can leave (actually, if you are so 'uncivil' to the point of hate speech--you might not be able to leave my house; OK OK, you'll leave...but in a pine box!) Apply this to private websites that can be reached from public roads (the internet). You do not have to join those websites by signing up and making a promise to abide by their rules. If you do, however, why are you surprised they will exercise control of their own property and enforce the agreement you signed. Incidentally, and this is really germane to this entire thread, here is a relevant part of the agreement we all signed in order to be able to post on these threads: Respect among community members Discrimination -- Do not discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, ideology, ideas, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Profanity -- Do not curse or use hard language here. Social norms differ from place to place; hard language can deter people from our community. Incivility -- Do not insult others here. Disagree and challenge ideas instead. Code of conduct The forum / mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Trisquel. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome. Do not send spam. Send all of your post / e-mails in English. Only use other languages on forum / mailing lists where that is explicitly allowed. Avoid sending large attachments. Try not to flame; it is not polite. Use common sense all the time. These parts are decisive: Profanity -- Do not curse or use hard language here. Social norms differ from place to place; hard language can deter people from our community. Incivility -- Do not insult others here. Disagree and challenge ideas instead. Based on the following, you might be able to argue that this thread should exist in the Troll Hole. One can make a stronger argument that it shouldn't exist in these forums at all:
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Libertarianism got hijacked by the tight long ago. They misinterpret freedom from oppression as freedom from regulations. It's pretty creepy. There are no rightwing anarchists, as capitalism only exists with the support of the state. They just want to shrink the bits of government they don't like so they can opress and get rich off poor people. It's creepy. Private power is worse than public power which at least has some element of control over it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
No it does have relevance. Unless you have been living under a rock for centuries, it might be obvious that the views David Duke espouses very often qualify as hate speech. He was a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan! They fucking lynch black people and go around shooting and intimidating them! He denies the Holocaust which killed millions of people in Europe, due to the fascist, racist ideology he subscribes to! So you chose the absolute worst example possible! It's abhorrent. You say he speaks the truth... You are obviously extremely gullible. You brought it up, and furthermore say that this video is the truth. It catastrophically undermines any semblance of argument that these anti-hate speech laws undermine free speech. I will reiterate. They are not banning people from saying these things, just that the poisonous language be kept away from public forums. Why don't you challenge it in the courts? I don't think this really is worse than the moderation that already occurs on these websites. They have double-standards but it is their premises, and not the issue here. It is more like a no-platform issue for these views. All the GNU Social instances block hate speech and it is clearly defined, as here, is that an attack on free speech?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
What's worse or if any of those it's good at all it's not relevant to what I said, you see. It's not about if Bernie or David Duke is good or bad, I'm not interest in who's right or wrong. My business is with bias media that attempts to control public opinion. Because if they control public opinion. Then, do we even have any democracy? Is democracy sane when all or the majority of the people is brainwashed to vote what other people want?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I'm not defending white supremacist, I stand for the free speech of every one, whether he's European, Indian or a fellow countryman or countrywoman. Me defending any supremacist is an idea excessing only in your mind full of suppositions about me.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I'm not saying Trump is a Nazi per se. He only falls in the same pit as the Weimar republic conservative parties did when they supported the rise of Hitler hoping to gain power over him and ditch him when he was done. It won't work.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Exactly, in fact. That same video could be banned in Europe even though doesn't have a drop of hate against anyone. The same video shows cases where pacific free speech got banned because some people had other interests. It's just plain an simple truth that could be banned in Europe for simply that: Stating the truth.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"The nazism of today is alive and it has the face of GOP, Trump" stopped reading at GOP and Trump being pro nazi. Unless you can prove that you're not repeating the same some people says without any base then you're just lying. Also, question. Do you even live in America?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Then you shouldn't act against yout best interests defending extremists' right to air time on any platform they choose to infiltrate. It's illogical.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
So now you imply I'm a white supremacist? I'll let you know that what you're doing it's no different from someone thinking "if it's dumb must be black" You'll agree with me that, that kind of prejudice is bad, right? Then why you don't hesitate to call me "white supremacists" even though you don't even have proof that I'm white? Are you calling me names just to discredit me? Because that wouldn't be different from a religious fanatic calling someone "heretic!" to silence him. Just because you're atheist or whatever doesn't mean you can't fall in the same category of religious fanatics. Because you seem to be using the same low tactics. Also I'll let you know two facts: 1: I'm decedent from center america natives. 2: I condemn every supremacists. White, Black, Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Spanish or any other supremacist is bad as far as I can see.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I agree, but being a KKK is kinda worse...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Niemöller was talking about the Nazis. The nazism of today is alive and it has the face of GOP, Trump and white suprecist groups fearmongering amidst us.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I wouldn't mind if you elaborate on why it's "out of place" as you say.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I know that Niemöller quote through and through. Your quote is put place and misdirected.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"Because US Citizens have a taboo towards communism." Exactly right. Because US Citizens have a taboo towards communism. And what would happen if Bernie Sanders where to be called "former communist"? That would make him look bad in the US. A lot of people wouldn't vote for him. Bernie supporters would say that calling him "former communist" is bias. But then. Why the media doesn't hesitate to call David Duke "former Ku Klux Klan"? Why? Why if the communism of Sanders is even more recent than David Duke's Ku Klux Klan membership? I'll tell you why: Interests! The media is incredibly bias and manipulate the public opinion!
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Isn't it obvious? Being a socialist and being a white suprematist dung basket are hardly comparable in equality of admiration.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
There's no way to even know if you are a US Citizen. No one is implying you promote Trump... I agree about not banning certain videos when in Europe they think that's hateful speech, when the general global consensus it might not be... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vVohGWhMWs
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Now you're implying I'm a Trump supporter even though I haven't mention a word of him. Why no one call Bernie "former communist" while every-time David Duke is bring to discussion he's called "former Ku Klux Klan member"? either answer that or stop making me lose my time in worthless chitchat.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/les-leopold/if-bernie-wins-california_b_10051886.html
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"These warmongers have exactly the same freedoms as they had before" >"They can put up a platform[...]" They can put a platform and what? Wait until they see how even that got banned because of some filter? Can't you see the danger of this new EU law? Can't you see how this new EU rule could be used to ban all sorts of things? Can't you think for yourself? Are you just waiting until someone like maybe RMS tells you what to think? Because you seem the kind of person that waits until someone who they trust tell them how to react. Because that's not a sane behavior, that's sheep behavior no different from a religious fanatic who waits for their pastor opinion. You should be able to see the potential threat this EU rule could pose to free speech maybe not now, but in the future. "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
I said "they seemed"
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Bernie is a snowball in hell. He has no chance to be lected. Why are wasting bullets on him? Is it because trumpists must have an opponent, imagined or real?
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Because Americans have a taboo towards communism. I never implied you said Communism was bad. That was added up by me. "While hate speech is everything counter to the current political establishment believes." This doesn't answer my question, you decided to issue something else by saying "in practice"... Let's leave Pragmatism for a moment. In theory what are they? (That's my question)
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
It used to be good manners in another time... Now you are a beacon of hope for the millions if you know how to throw cheap expletives and libel at your adversaries.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>"Tell me the difference between Political Correctness and Hate Speech" In practice political correctness is anything the current political establishment believes or want you to believe. While hate speech is everything counter to the current political establishment believes. >"Being a communist is not a bad thing, it's just a Political Ideology. It's not as if Bernie was Mao, or Stalin..." Have I said otherwise? Please point out where I said "communism is bad". I don't know why you need to reaffirm you're idea of communism not being bad since I haven't challenged that idea or eve imply otherwise. Also, if communism it's not bad then why no one even mention the communist past of Bernie? Why no one call him "former communist". This is a question that you need to ask to yourself and to the media. I mean. Why wouldn't they if communism it's not bad? And no, I'm not implying that they don't call him former communist because communist it's bad. Just first try to answer that question by yourself.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yeah, but I didn't say they will, just an hypothetical scenario
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yeah, I agree... this is making Facebook be more unstable than it already is...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
They won't ban Free Software any time soon. They even seem to agree that it's the safest thing to have running in any computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwRYyWn7BEo
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Tell me the difference between Political Correctness and Hate Speech... Being a communist is not a bad thing, it's just a Political Ideology. It's not as if Bernie was Mao, or Stalin...
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
These war mongers have exactly the same freedoms as they had before. They can put up a platform of their own for their rants, misogynism and xenophobia induced hatred. As long as they don't cross the subtle threshold of targeting a specific minority and calling for violence towards them, they are free to say anything.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Yeah, that's why I thought of that hypothetical scenario. Linux nor GNU necessarily imply communism. Both could live in either a communist or a capitalist system. I didn't imply that free software is communism. But rather that some people could believe that, and ban free software too with a law that bans communism. This is why a law that bans something as open to interpretation like "hate speech" it's dangerous to our freedom. I know it's only facebook, twitter, youtube and microsoft and that only in Europe, but think. If this happens in such important place with so many people. Couldn't happen in your country too in some time in the future? This EU rule is 1984 reality edition.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
>Also, I am not a "communist", as you seem to be implying. Is it some scare label you apy to people who disagree with you? It makes no sense.< A ballmerism is appropriate here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/31/ms_ballmer_linux_is_communism/
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
RMS has also said that he doesn't align with what he calls "right-wing libertarian anarchists". https://trisquel.info/en/forum/stallman-talk#comment-95157
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Fuck David Duke, fuck the Klan, Fuck sanders and his socialdemocrat crap, fuck hillary and trump. Slava Stalin.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
If anybody is interested, Richard Stallman already commented on this: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-mar-jun.html "1 June 2016 (Censorship of "hate speech") Several "US" companies have signed a pledge to censor "hate speech", which is a crime in many European countries. This includes statements of views that are protected in the US. We must not ban expression of opinions just because we find them disgusting. " he links to this article in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/31/facebook-youtube-twitter-microsoft-eu-hate-speech-code
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
Please do your best when trying to understand other people's views and post. Don't make me lose my time by making me repeat my self. That's all I ask when someone reply to my posts. And when people just miss-read (some times on purpose) to make it seem like I said something different that what I actually said I get offended. And I think everyone would.
Re: [Trisquel-users] EU: All your internet are belong to us
SOPA and PIPA proposals don't belong here? Then how come people could talk all day long about that here? The reason why I condemn this EU decision is EXACTLY the same why the Trisquel community condemned SOPA and PIPA.
