[TruthTalk] Tax Freedom Day
g, Actually Tax Freedom Day was at it’s latest day ever on May 2, 2004. (Guess who just finished 8 years of taxation on America?) This year it came 21 days earlier (guess who cut taxes for you and me?). Amazing proof that the Democrats are out to CONFISCATE YOUR MONEY, and the Republicans are out to GIVE IT BACK TO YOU WHO EARNED IT. Izzy Washington, D.C., April 7, 2004 — According to Tax Foundation calculations using the latest government data on income and taxes, Tax Freedom Day® in 2004 will be celebrated on April 11th, the earliest Tax Freedom Day for 37 years. April 11th is three days earlier than 2003’s Tax Freedom Day of April 14 and an amazing 21 days earlier than in 2000, when the boom and bubble pushed tax burdens to a record high, and Tax Freedom Day was postponed until May 2 (see Figure 1). "Federal tax cuts have made the average American tax burden lighter in 2004," said Tax Foundation President Scott Hodge. "Because the bubble in 1999 and 2000 boosted tax collections to artificially high levels, the drop since then is all the more dramatic. In fact, it is the biggest drop in America's tax burden for at least a century." The report is Tax Foundation Special Report No. 129, "America Celebrates Tax Freedom Day®," by Hodge and Foundation Senior Economist Scott Moody. The report traces the course of America’s tax burden since 1900, examines the composition of today’s tax burden by type of tax, projects the future course of Tax Freedom Day and compares tax payments to other typical consumer expenditures. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The End of Truthtalk the day you mentioned used to be in May a couple of years ago On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:10:13 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: A couple of days after you’ve paid your federal taxes for the year. Iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 4:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The End of Truthtalk G: when's Labor Day? || 9/4 >..conservatism stands [..for..] freedom from domination by big gov’t. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation). Many of the posts recently seem to 'detach and separate'. We need to be thinking in ways which are PERSONAL & EMBODIED. We indwell and are indwelt by HIM. Every utterance of that reality is an approximation. All disagreements take place over the latter by necessity. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 06, 2004 23:55 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/5/2004 3:15:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: See the book similarly titled by Richard B. Hays. It suggests an implicit narrative that is shared by Paul and his readers. And the heart of that story of Jesus is the faith of the Messiah. Paul does believe that humans are put into right relationship with God through faith. It is not through their own faith, however, but through the faith of Jesus Christ.Lance -- question. The illustration by Paul on the point of faith in the place of righteousness is that of Abraham receiving the promise. In the text, Ro 4:3, "Abraham believed and it (Abraham's belief) was considered as righteousness. " Am I too narrow in my contextual view, here, or what?the student,J David Smithson
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does “encompasses” mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has “inputed” his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does encompasses mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has inputed his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Lance, Explanation. You never provide one. Typical psychobabble: impossible to “apprehend”. No wonder you and g get along so well. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does “encompasses” mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has “inputed” his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Iz:Brother John wrote a couple of excellent posts upon return from his 'holiday' weekend. Why not focus on those? No 'psychobabble' there. You can only speak from within your existing framework of thought. Me too. So, just think on 'the epistemological relevance of the homoousion' as that is what this is all about. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 08:55 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, Explanation. You never provide one. Typical psychobabble: impossible to apprehend. No wonder you and g get along so well. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:01 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does encompasses mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has inputed his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 3:38:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation). Many of the posts recently seem to 'detach and separate'. We need to be thinking in ways which are PERSONAL &EMBODIED. We indwell and are indwelt by HIM. Every utterance of that reality is an approximation. All disagreements take place over the latter by necessity. Phil 2:12-13 has to figure in the mix. This is one of the questions I intend to give to you with Kruger in mind. To my way of thinking, if "if" is not part of the equattion in some manner, we are talking about universalism. I do not think this response is formulaic (word?) in nature. I am considering the notion that "the faith of Christ" issue is somehow related to the Phil passage above and such passages as John 6: 29 and 44 (and the surrounding context, of course.) John
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Izzy what I hear him saying is that there is no "objective truth" everything is relative ie "relative to your existing framework of thought" So we all have our own "truth" and so we must adjust to everyone's individual frameworks - and "psychobabble" is an excellent descriptive word for it... jt On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:06:20 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Iz:Brother John wrote a couple of excellent posts upon return from his 'holiday' weekend. Why not focus on those? No 'psychobabble' there. You can only speak from within your existing framework of thought. Me too. So, just think on 'the epistemological relevance of the homoousion' as that is what this is all about. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 08:55 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, Explanation. You never provide one. Typical psychobabble: impossible to apprehend. No wonder you and g get along so well. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:01 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does encompasses mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has inputed his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 4:04:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. Yes -- and Gal 3:26 -27 has much to do with this discussion. At least as I see the passage, it is saying that we are children of God by faith as we immerse ourselves into Christ. In this immersion, we have success -- therefore, all of what we do, including our conviction, is given meaning in (eis) Christ. He is our clothing. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 3:38:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Many of the posts recently seem to 'detach and separate'. We need to be thinking in ways which are PERSONAL &EMBODIED. In view of Jere 31:31-33 I could not agree more. J
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 6:10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'the epistemological relevance of the homoousion' as that is what this is all about. I just quoted this to my wife -- awesome -;) JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 6:19:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy what I hear him saying is that there is no "objective truth" everything is relative ie "relative to your existing framework of thought" So we all have our own "truth" and so we must adjust to everyone's individual frameworks - and "psychobabble" is an excellent descriptive word for it... jt Not even close. I have no personal raltionship with Lance other than this forum so I cannot relate to you his thinking BUT I will say that he is dealing with the same issue I am -- it wouldn't be a problem to Lance if he were not accountable to objective truth, would it? His interpretation of the written message is differenct from your interpretation. Neither consideration should be confused with abject reality. The fact that you (and everyone on this list) have changed your mind about what you believe the Bible says is proof of this -- not to mention I Co 8:1-3. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
jt: Basically I have never changed my mind about truth John; though my understanding has deepened as I study God's word. Lance, Jonathan, and now you appear to be so caught up in some ethereal concept of Christ that I can not relate to. My Jesus is the Word of God and this Word has not ever changed. Early in my walk a sister told me that Jesus is the one constant. Whenever I wake up in the morning everything in the world may be different but He is always the same. I have found this to be experientally true. On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:37:45 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 9/7/2004 6:19:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy what I hear him saying is that there is no "objective truth" everything is relative ie "relative to your existingframework of thought" So we all have our own "truth" and so we must adjust to everyone's individual frameworks -and "psychobabble" is an excellent descriptive word for it... jt Not even close. I have no personal raltionship with Lance other than this forum so I cannot relate to you his thinking BUT I will say that he is dealing with the same issue I am -- it wouldn't be a problem to Lance if he were not accountable to objective truth, would it? His interpretation of the written message is differenct from your interpretation. Neither consideration should be confused with abject reality. The fact that you (and everyone on this list) have changed your mind about what you believe the Bible says is proof of this -- not to mention I Co 8:1-3. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
That’s the scary part—he’s starting to sound a lot like you. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Brother John wrote a couple of excellent posts upon return from his 'holiday' weekend. Why not focus on those? No 'psychobabble' there. You can only speak from within your existing framework of thought. Me too. So, just think on 'the epistemological relevance of the homoousion' as that is what this is all about. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 08:55 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, Explanation. You never provide one. Typical psychobabble: impossible to “apprehend”. No wonder you and g get along so well. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does “encompasses” mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has “inputed” his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Jt, I knew that. Exactly. But you can’t get the man to admit it. (He thinks he’s talking over our heads.) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Izzy what I hear him saying is that there is no "objective truth" everything is relative ie "relative to your existing framework of thought" So we all have our own "truth" and so we must adjust to everyone's individual frameworks - and "psychobabble" is an excellent descriptive word for it... jt On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:06:20 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Iz:Brother John wrote a couple of excellent posts upon return from his 'holiday' weekend. Why not focus on those? No 'psychobabble' there. You can only speak from within your existing framework of thought. Me too. So, just think on 'the epistemological relevance of the homoousion' as that is what this is all about. From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 08:55 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, Explanation. You never provide one. Typical psychobabble: impossible to “apprehend”. No wonder you and g get along so well. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Iz:Participation. Read Gal 3:1-4:11. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 06:54 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Lance, what are you saying below? I find your language impossible to decipher at times. What does “encompasses” mean? Are you saying you wonder how we can learn faithfulness from Jesus? Or are you saying you are wondering how Jesus has “inputed” his faithfulness to us (meaning we just have to think we are to be?) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm still sorting out how the former (faithfulness of Jesus) encompasses the latter (our participation).
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Seems more like THEORETICAL & IMAGINED. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/7/2004 3:38:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Many of the posts recently seem to 'detach and separate'. We need to be thinking in ways which are PERSONAL &EMBODIED. In view of Jere 31:31-33 I could not agree more. J
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:09:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thatâs the scary partâheâs starting to sound a lot like you. Izzy He is me, Izzy. We haven't talked about the theory of bi-location, have we? Lance.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 6:47:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Basically I have never changed my mind about truth John; though my understanding has deepened as I study God's word. Lance, Jonathan, and now you appear to be so caught up in some ethereal concept of Christ that I can not relate to. My Jesus is the Word of God and this Word has not ever changed. Early in my walk a sister told me that Jesus is the one constant. Whenever I wake up in the morning everything in the world may be different but He is always the same. I have found this to be experientally true. Judy my dear, I do not believe that you have just said that you have never changed your mind about what you believe. You are not a follower -- therefore I know that such is not even remotely possible. Secondly, I hear Jonathan and Lance saying these very words in a different way : My Jesus is the Word of God and this Word has not ever changed. Early in my walk a sister told me that Jesus is the one constant. Whenever I wake up in the morning everything in the world may be different but He is always the same. I have found this to be experientally true. I see Lance as more the theologian and Jonathan as more the pragmatist. It is Lance who objects the loudest to intellectual game playing and Jonathan who protests the "heart" issues such as prejudice. Neither is trying to develop their individual theologies apart from the written message or the Living Word or they would not remain in this forum. They would be over there with Atheists Anonymous or the Bangermain Theological Society for the Eschatologically Impaired. Your brother, John the beloved
Re: [TruthTalk] The End of Truthtalk
Does this describe anyone on this list? J WHY MESSIANIC JEWS? Rachmiel Frydiand To ask why we are Jews is to ask why a bagel is a bagel. A bagel tastes like a bagel and not like a doughnut, although one bagelhater defined a bagel as a doughnut dipped in cement. Now a Jew is a Jew, because he was born a Jew and because he wants to be a Jew. In most cases even if he does not want to be one, he will be compelled to admit it; otherwise, others will point a finger at him, asking, "Aren't you Jewish?" The term Jew is related to Judah, jacob's fourth son from Leah. Judah (Yehuda in Hebrew) means praise to the Lord. His mother Leah wanted thus to express her gratitude to the Lord for giving her this fourth son. The descendants of Judah were aware of this derivation, and sometimes were reminded of it by descendants of other tribes challenging them to live up to their name. We have to admit that some Jews succeeded in assimilating with their Gentile neighbors through intermarriage, change of name, and denial of their identity. Usually it was a long ardent process and took several generations to achieve. On the other hand, there were groups and individuals who, though not descendants of Judah or from any of the other tribes of Israel, succeeded in their efforts at being absorbed into the people called Jews. This was not easy. The people of Shechem wanted to do it and even went through the full rite of circumcision of every male, yet were slaughtered and never succeeded to penetrate the hermetically sealed tribes of Israel (Genesis 34). Sometimes those attempting to join them gave them trouble, like the "mixed multitude" of Exodus 12:38, and the Gibeonites of Joshua 9. However, in most other cases these nonJewish groups seem to have been gradually absorbed and assimilated into the Jewish body by intermarriage. Large influxes took place in the Persian period, as reported in the book of Esther in the Bible, and in the Maccabean period, when whole tribes under threat of extermination, preferred circumcision. The most prominent are the Khazar tribes of the present central Russia who accepted Judaism. The story of their conversion was described and popularized by the famous philosopher/poet Yehuda Halevi. Today, both in Israel and in the Diaspora, Rabbis are working hard at teaching and preparing prospective converts to Judaism. In some cases, at least, these converts are absorbed into the Jewish mainstream by intermarriage. Messianic Jews Among the 14 million Jewish people there is a group of perhaps twenty or thirty thousand people, born Jews, who believe in the Torah and the rest of the Tenach and practice Jewish customs and religion. They also believe in Jesus. Some, if not most of them, prefer to call Him by His Jewish name, Yeshua. Although small in number, they are a vocal group, constantly challenging the Jewish spiritual and secular authorities with their presence, demanding recognition as Jews. It would be easiest for these Jewish believers, among whom is also the writer of these lines, to accept the advice of rabbinic leaders and put aside our belief in Jesus. The Jewish authorities work very hard to achieve it. Organizations and individuals spend their time and hundreds and thousands of dollars towards this end. Among the best known are the Peilim, Karen Yeladdenu, supported by the Ministry of Religious Affairs in Israel, and many more who do it as a full or part time job. Why do Messianic Jews resist? What lies behind their obstinancy, not only continuing to believe themselves but also spreading their faith to others? The answer as we see it is spiritual. This spiritual aspect can be summarized as follows: Prophecies Demand It We believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah because He alone gives sense to the words of our Jewish prophets. There is Isaiah 53 with its minute description of the suffering servant who was despised and rejected, afflicted with pain and stripes, by whose "stripes we are healed." He then dies, is buried, yet is revived and suffers all this "for the affliction of my (Isaiah the prophet's) people." All this can best be applied to one person only - Yeshua of Nazareth. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to Messiah. The Targum of Jonathan begins the passage with the words Ha yatslakh avdee Mashikha, "Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper. .. " Common sense says it must refer to Jesus. The same goes for many other prophecies which speak of the time of His birth, like Daniel 9:26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, ... (The city and sanctuary were destroyed A.D. 70. Messiah had to come and be cut off before then.) The manner of His birth in a supernatural way is recorded in Isaiah 7:14: Behold the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, an
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:35:21 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Basically I have never changed my mind about truth John; though my understanding has deepened as I study God's word. Lance, Jonathan, and now you appear to be so caught up in some ethereal concept of Christ that I can not relate to. My Jesus is the Word of God and this Word has not ever changed. Early in my walk a sister told me that Jesus is the one constant. Whenever I wake up in the morning everything in the world may be different but He is always the same.I have found this to be experientally true. Judy my dear, I do not believe that you have just said that you have never changed your mind about what you believe. You are not a follower -- therefore I know that such is not even remotely possible. Secondly, I hear Jonathan and Lance saying these very words in a different way : My Jesus is the Word of God and this Word has not ever changed. Early in my walk a sister told me that Jesus is the one constant. Whenever I wake up in the morning everything in the world may be different but He is always the same. I have found this to be experientally true.I see Lance as more the theologian and Jonathan as more the pragmatist. It is Lance who objects the loudest to intellectual game playing and Jonathan who protests the "heart" issues such as prejudice. Neither is trying to develop their individual theologies apart from the written message or the Living Word or they would not remain in this forum. They would be over there with Atheists Anonymous or the Bangermain Theological Society for the Eschatologically Impaired. jt: John it is possible to proclaim Christ and ATST deny Him with one's actions and/or speech. Lance may object the loudest to psychological game playing but he is better at it than anyone here by default. Jonathan might protest things such as prejudice but are his standards God's standards? You know God's Word is judging all of us as we speak - We are either being blessed or cursed according to where we walk. I know this is not a popular concept because we all think we should be always on the blessing side of things but a man shall live by the fruit of his lips. When God calls it "dirt" (sin), it's a good idea to agree with Him and deal with it (in our own heart that is). He can take care of all the milling masses out there who Jonathan and Lance are agonizing about constantly.
RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on...ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Slade, My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasnt cleared by then. The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Monday, September 06, 2004 6:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Five Million Over 5,000,000 homes have lost power from Hurricanes Charley and Frances. Will Ivan finish the Floridian power grid at week's end? -- slade ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Oh no, Lance is splitting and multiplying!!! Yikes! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:09:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That’s the scary part—he’s starting to sound a lot like you. Izzy He is me, Izzy. We haven't talked about the theory of bi-location, have we? Lance.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Iz:C'mon guys (gals). I didn't initiate this post. Wha'sappenin'? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 11:04 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 Oh no, Lance is splitting and multiplying!!! Yikes! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:37 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:09:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thats the scary parthes starting to sound a lot like you. Izzy He is me, Izzy. We haven't talked about the theory of bi-location, have we?Lance.
RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Oh, Michael—we will pray with you, Brother. Please let us know at least daily how you are there. How close is Ivan? I heard it has gone from a 4 to a 2. True? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael douglas Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on... ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Slade, My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasn’t cleared by then. The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 6:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Five Million Over 5,000,000 homes have lost power from Hurricanes Charley and Frances. Will Ivan finish the Floridian power grid at week's end? -- slade ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
Bi-location? What is this? We are to be conformed to the "image of Christ" Not the image of Lance jt On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:04:10 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Oh no, Lance is splitting and multiplying!!! Yikes! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:37 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:09:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That’s the scary part—he’s starting to sound a lot like you. Izzy He is me, Izzy. We haven't talked about the theory of bi-location, have we?Lance.
Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Hi Michael D, I'm with you, that is with you in the line for mercy right now. It's not easy to know what is going on behind what we see and God hasn't given me a Word of Knowledge or Wisdom about these storms thus far. We can assure our hearts before Him though. He knows where we live and what concerns us concerns Him. So brother, be steadfast and unmoveable in the Lord Waiting to hear your testimony of grace when Ivan is gone ... jt On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:55:36 +0100 (BST) =?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on...ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Slade, My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasnt cleared by then. The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Monday, September 06, 2004 6:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Five Million Over 5,000,000 homes have lost power from Hurricanes Charley and Frances. Will Ivan finish the Floridian power grid at week's end? -- slade ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million
In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:56:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael D: Well, what do you know?!?!?! Trinidad and Tobago are inder a warning re Ivan. It has concerned me alot. I have been fighting it and praying against. I am doing all that I can to stave off the danger. I'll be continuing as long as the threat looms. I am looking to God for mercy on our land. I am not too surprised that this would present itself. It has also forced me to do some soul searching and have the dealings of God with me personally. Sometimes we can neglect things and only in a real battle do we rise up to deal with them. Well, I will get back to the vigil now, and may God grant us grace and mercy. The fight is on... While I do not agree on this prayer controling weather thing, I have to let you know that this weekend, while in Pismo Beach, the local news station over there described the dramatic downturn for Frances as "unexplainable." Why do I think Michael will return post with a hearty amen?
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
In a message dated 9/7/2004 8:11:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bi-location? What is this? We are to be conformed to the "image of Christ" Not the image of Lance jt Me thinks you need to take a pill. Lance
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11
John-boy (Mr. 'speak in the name of) says 'take a pill' on my behalf so I concur John (It rains on the just and, the unjust) Smithson - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 07, 2004 11:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The Faith of Jesus Christ-Gal 3:1-4:11 In a message dated 9/7/2004 8:11:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bi-location? What is this? We are to be conformed to the "image of Christ"Not the image of Lance jtMe thinks you need to take a pill. Lance
Re: [TruthTalk] Kruger
Okay, I know you are all just hanging on the edge of your seats waiting to hear my pronouncements Re: Kruger. Anyway, perhaps at least I won’t receive the devastating silence that I did on my LAST book report: Some of what Kruger wrote in The Great Dance was nice. Like, “There has never been an act of God that was not the act of Father, Son, and Spirit.” Meaning they never act outside the knowledge of each other. Makes me think of a good marriage. HOWEVER, he also said that the holiness of God does not include “law and order, crime and punishment, blind and cold justice. Reconceived within this stainless steel world of pure law holiness came to mean legal perfection or moral rectitude. This notion of holiness was then taken back into the doctrine of God and substituted (by Western theology) for the Trinity as the deepest truth about God—the driving force of divine existence.” Kruger only accepts in his definition of holiness things such as “joy,,,fullness…love…mutual delight and passion, sheer togetherness of their (Trinity) relationship, its intimacy, harmony, wholeness, wonder, beauty, health and rightness..” In other words, Kruger rejects all the “negatives” of the justice side of God and accepts only the positive goodies. This is so New Age that I don’t think I even have to point that out. Kruger is unbalanced from the start. Kruger then goes on to encapsulate the typical gospel message of “the human race fell into sin and is liable to punishment. Jesus Christ…comes to satisfy the holiness and justice of God. On the cross…punishment is poured out upon him. God’s justice is satisfied and we are forgiven—legally clean.” He then goes to say that this is “disastrously wrong”. “Gone is the great dance of the Trinity and the astonishing vision of the Father, Son and Spirit reaching out to share their life and glory with us.” (Well, what does he think Jesus Christ was—chopped liver???) “In its place we have a divine legalist who is extremely upset over human failure and sin, and we have Jesus coming to rescue us from God. The death of Jesus us now aimed at God rather than at human corruption and alienation. Jesus comes to do something to God, to satisfy his white-glove legalities, even to change God so that we can be forgiven.” And worst of all, Kruger states, “This shift from the centrality of Jesus Christ to the centrality of the cross is the great sin of the Western Church and the greatest sin of all disasters.” I could stop right there and ask you—who can possibly have a saving relationship with Christ with such a belief? I think no one. Kruger says that “We hear a lot about forgiveness, but very little about the staggering reality of our inclusion in Jesus’ relationship with his Father in Spirit.” (Obviously Kruger has never had the charismatic experience.) “When people speak of Christ as the Mediator, they mean that he stands between an angry God and sinful people and straightens out the legal mess. Gone is the vision that he is the point of union between divine human life. Gone is the vision that he is the connection between the Trinity and humans and he mediate the Triune life of God to us.” I don’t know what planet Kruger inhabits—but the very lack of the experience that he says people have who believe in the “legalist” God is exactly the kind of relationship I have always experienced since coming to Christ through that very legalist God that he says prevents it! Obviously Kruger has never had a saving experience, has no understanding of the crux of the salvation message because it is abhorrent to his sensitive sensibilities, and so he has bypassed the very core of the gospel to create a new, cross-less “glorious relationship” without the Blood that purchases this very thing and fills us with the Holy Spirit—who alone can convey spiritual understanding of the spiritual concepts that Kruger does not understand. He claims that thru the “legalist” gospel “There is no Trinity in it, no divine life, no divine dance. It is just human. Our lives and the totality of our human existence fall under the heading of ‘ordinary’.” I find it absurd that he thinks one can circumvent the cross and find any true joy and satisfaction in life—and certainly anything beyond that—which I have long experienced THROUGH the cross! Certainly the Trinity! Kruger claims that Jesus took on the same fallen nature that all other human beings have been born with. I don’t even find a problem with that statement, as long as he does not claim that Jesus ever sinned. This to me is not worth arguing about—although I’m sure it is alarming to others. Kruger goes on to describe all the delights of life when one enters into the same understanding of the Trinity as he has discovered. I found it odd that he thought such thoughts were a new way of life that only he had discovered, such as the joy one takes is others, and in one’s work and leisure, and in the creation around
RE: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you
ï I have no idea from scripture as to why you have written the above, expecailly that last thought -- "they're 'in' as a result." The Jew and the Gentile are the same in the sight of God in terms of salvation's walk. They have no special consideration in that regard. Agreed. I am merely stating the reason why [Scriptural or not] the Jewish people do not keep the Law for salvation. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 10:28 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to youSlade wrote: Good for the parents of John the B. Does this mean that their righteousness exceeded the need for faith to be credited to them in place of their righteous failures (Ro 4:14-25)? I find this interesting. Youâre not arguing with Tim (or me) on this point. Youâre arguing with the One who oversaw its compilation. Of course not. I see a certain combination of scripture as saying one thing and you see a different combination of scripture as saying something else. Neither of us are arguing with God. Another interesting point: the Torah was never given as an alternative to faith. Historically, Jewish people have never believed that the keeping of commandments was a way to be granted a place in the World to Come. They [the Israelis] are Godâs Chosen People â faults and all â and theyâre âin,â as a result. The Israelis have clung to this promise in faith.I have no idea from scripture as to why you have written the above, expecailly that last thought -- "they're 'in' as a result." The Jew and the Gentile are the same in the sight of God in terms of salvation's walk. They have no special consideration in that regard. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Sadly, more than ZERO people died from Charley and even more from Frances. The track for Ivan has been determined more southern than the GIF file given by G, so it actually poses a greater threat to both Trinidad and Florida than before. Please see the updated GIF forecast. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million Slade, My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasn’t cleared by then. The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord. Izzy <>
RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million
Today I heard that 9 have died as a result of Frances. Seems like a whole lot more were lost due to Charley. Let’s pray protection for the Caribbean and all inhabited areas. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million Sadly, more than ZERO people died from Charley and even more from Frances. The track for Ivan has been determined more southern than the GIF file given by G, so it actually poses a greater threat to both Trinidad and Florida than before. Please see the updated GIF forecast. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Five Million Slade, My daughter in law has been alone with her 3 children all weekend in the bad weather in Valdosta GA. Yesterday they had no power for 8 hours. Today for over an hour. My son had to leave the state Friday to evacuate his jet, and may not be able to return tomorrow if the weather hasn’t cleared by then. The good news is that few if any lives were lost in this huge storm in Florida over the weekend. Praise the Lord. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you
ï -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, September 06, 2004 10:29 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you Slade wrote: Another interesting point: the Torah was never given as an alternative to faith. Historically, Jewish people have never believed that the keeping of commandments was a way to be granted a place in the World to Come. They [the Israelis] are Godâs Chosen People â faults and all â and theyâre âin,â as a result. The Israelis have clung to this promise in faith. Terry: I think it's time we took a reality check, 'cause you sure have a different view of all this than I do. The Pharisees thought they were "in" simply because they were Jews. They were wrong, and if you believe that, you are wrong. Being a Jew has no benefit whatsoever if you do not put all your trust in Jesus, the Messiah, as your Lord and Savior. Some in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together, and God considered their lack of understanding. That has changed. Those on this list who have heard the Gospel will be judged on what they have done with Christ, not on their diet or their foreskin or their ancestors. Slade: You misunderstood what I wrote above as being my doctrinal statement. I need no reality check in THAT department, at least. However, I disagree with you wording "Some in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together." I think it should read, "All in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together." Meanwhile, to be fair, I think this following statement is likewise true: "Some today are saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fits together." Terry: As for the Mosaic law, it is over, fulfilled, finished, kaput. It was for a certain time (until Jesus rose from the dead.) It was for a certain group of people (Only the Children of Israel, commonly called Jews, Lev27:34 ) It was for a certain purpose (To show that no one was capable of saving themselves). Slade: We do not agree on this point. In fact, I think I can honestly say there is nothing in that paragraph I do agree with. I find that amazing! I do like your Yiddishkeit, though! [To clarify, Torah Observance does not grant Eternal Life. Faith and the Grace of God are the vehicles.] Terry: As for the Jews, God chose them, not because they were bigger or stronger or better or brighter or purer. They were not. He chose them for the same reason that He fed five thousand with a lunch meant for one. To show that He was a powerful God who could do very much with very little. Slade: We agree for the most part. He chose them because they were the smallest (Moshe tells us that), but He chose us also on the merit of Father Avraham (Genesis tells us that). Terry: God could have chosen a king, or a pharaoh, a builder of pyramids or a mighty warrior. Instead He started with an idol worshiping goat farmer, a nobody, from a nowhere place called Ur. Abraham wasn't something special. God is something special. Abraham was an adulterer who was willing to let his wife have sex with an Egyptian rather than risk his life. The best quality he had was jumping when God said," jump". May I suggest that if God spoke to you, you would jump too. Nothing special about the father of the Jews. Everything special about the God of the Jews. The Father of the Israelis is special because of his monotheism, obedience of God, and his faith. The beautiful thing about God is that He remembers our finer points. BY the way, you have no real proof that Avram committed idolatry while in Ur. It's true that Ur was a city of idolatry, but Avram cannot be convicted of this by simply living there. In fact, Terach seems to be the one who got the original call to leave Ur (read the text) and Avram followed his father like a good, obedient son. In like manner, we should not convict Lot of homosexuality because Sodom was a city of open homosexuality. If you look at the genealogy of Jesus, the descendants of Abraham, it looks like a rogue's gallery, murderers, liars, whores, adulterers, coveters and on and on. If these are part of the family of God, anyone can be part of the family of God. It makes no difference if you are Greek or Jew, rich or poor, lily white or black as the ace of spades. Where you spend eternity depends solely on your relationship to Jesus Christ, not to Abraham. True. There are a good number of Tzaddikim [righteous men & women] as well. I like to spend more time on the positive things. Those six hundred laws have been replaced by two, both based on love. Sadly, most don't understand the concept of "summar
Re: [TruthTalk] Tax Freedom Day
in the kingdom of God no economic bubbles burst On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:23:03 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: ..Tax Freedom Day was at it’s latest day ever on May 2, 2004.. >when the boom and bubble pushed tax burdens to a record high, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you
Slade Henson wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 10:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you Slade wrote: Another interesting point: the Torah was never given as an alternative to faith. Historically, Jewish people have never believed that the keeping of commandments was a way to be granted a place in the World to Come. They [the Israelis] are Godâs Chosen People â faults and all â and theyâre âin,â as a result. The Israelis have clung to this promise in faith. Terry:ÂI think it's time we took a reality check, 'cause you sure have a different view of all this than I do.ÂThe Pharisees thought they were "in" simply because they were Jews.ÂThey were wrong, and if you believe that, you are wrong. Being a Jew has no benefit whatsoever if you do not put all your trust in Jesus, the Messiah, as your Lord and Savior.ÂSome in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together, and God considered their lack of understanding. That has changed.ÂThose on this list who have heard the Gospel will be judged on what they have done with Christ, not on their diet or their foreskin or their ancestors. Slade: You misunderstood what I wrote above as being my doctrinal statement. I need no reality check inÂTHAT department, at least. However, I disagree with you wording "Some in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together." I think it should read, "All in the old testament were saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fit together." Meanwhile, to be fair, I think this following statement is likewise true: "Some today are saved by faith in the promised seed, not quite knowing how it all fits together." Terry:ÂAs for the Mosaic law, it is over, fulfilled, finished, kaput.ÂIt was for a certain time (until Jesus rose from the dead.)ÂIt was for a certain group of people (Only the Children of Israel, commonly called Jews, Lev27:34 ) It was for a certain purpose (To show that no one was capable of saving themselves). Slade: WeÂdo not agree on this point. In fact, I think I can honestly say there is nothing in that paragraph IÂdo agree with. I find that amazing! I do like your Yiddishkeit, though! [To clarify, Torah Observance does not grantÂEternal Life. Faith and the Grace of GodÂare the vehicles.] Terry:ÂAs for the Jews, God chose them, not because they were bigger or stronger or better or brighter or purer. They were not. He chose them for the same reason that He fed five thousand with a lunch meant for one. To show that He was a powerful God who could do very much with very little. Slade: We agree for the most part. He chose them because they were the smallest (Moshe tells us that), but He chose us also on the merit of Father Avraham (Genesis tells us that). Terry:ÂGod could have chosen a king, or a pharaoh, a builder of pyramids or a mighty warrior. Instead He started with an idol worshiping goat farmer, a nobody, from a nowhere place called Ur. Abraham wasn't something special.ÂGod is something special. Abraham was an adulterer who was willing to let his wife have sex with an Egyptian rather than risk his life.ÂThe best quality he had was jumping when God said," jump". May I suggest that if God spoke to you, you would jump too.ÂNothing special about the father of the Jews.ÂEverything special about the God of the Jews. The Father of the Israelis is special because of his monotheism, obedience of God, and his faith. The beautiful thing about God is thatÂHe remembers our finer points. BY the way, you have no real proof that Avram committed idolatry while in Ur. It's true that Ur was a city of idolatry, but Avram cannot be convicted of this by simply living there. In fact, Terach seems to be the one who got the original call to leave Ur (read the text) and Avram followed his father like a good, obedient son. In like manner, we should not convict Lot of homosexuality because Sodom was a city of open homosexuality. If you look at the genealogy of Jesus, the descendants of Abraham, it looks like a rogue's gallery, murderers, liars, whores, adulterers, coveters and on and on. If these are part of the family of God, anyone can be part of the family of God.ÂIt makes no difference if you are Greek or Jew, rich or poor, lily white or black as the ace of spades. Where you spend eternity depends solely on your relationship to Jesus Christ, not to Abraham. True. There are a good number of Tzaddikim [righteous men & women] as well. I like to spend more time on the positive things. Those six hundred laws have been replaced by two, both based on love. Sadly, most don't understand the concept of "summary." The whole of Torah and the P
Re: [TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you
In a message dated 9/7/2004 2:11:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have no idea from scripture as to why you have written the above, expecailly that last thought -- "they're 'in' as a result." The Jew and the Gentile are the same in the sight of God in terms of salvation's walk. They have no special consideration in that regard. Agreed. I am merely stating the reason why [Scriptural or not] the Jewish people do not keep the Law for salvation. I will tell you (and Tim) that I have purchased three books to help me understand your point of view: Paul, the Jewish Theologian by Young, Restoring Our Lost Legacy by Garr, Jewish New Testament Commentary by David Stern. All three appear to be well written. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Kruger
In a message dated 9/7/2004 12:43:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, I know you are all just hanging on the edge of your seats waiting to hear my pronouncements Re: Kruger. Anyway, perhaps at least I wonât receive the devastating silence that I did on my LAST book report: Some of what Kruger wrote in The Great Dance was nice. Like, âThere has never been an act of God that was not the act of Father, Son, and Spirit.â Meaning they never act outside the knowledge of each other. Makes me think of a good marriage. Kruger would think of fellowship or community. HOWEVER, he also said that the holiness of God does not include âlaw and order, crime and punishment, blind and cold justice. Reconceived within this stainless steel world of pure law holiness came to mean legal perfection or moral rectitude. This notion of holiness was then taken back into the doctrine of God and substituted (by Western theology) for the Trinity as the deepest truth about Godâthe driving force of divine existence.â Kruger only accepts in his definition of holiness things such as âjoy,,,fullnessâloveâmutual delight and passion, sheer togetherness of their (Trinity) relationship, its intimacy, harmony, wholeness, wonder, beauty, health and rightness..â In other words, Kruger rejects all the ânegativesâ of the justice side of God and accepts only the positive goodies. This is so New Age that I donât think I even have to point that out. Kruger is unbalanced from the start. I have no response (can you believe it?) , This was a problem for me, as well BUT I cannot make a decision about Krugers theological position without more information. I have a Masters thesis that is twice as thick as his treatise --- there must be more and there is. Kruger then goes on to encapsulate the typical gospel message of âthe human race fell into sin and is liable to punishment. Jesus Christâcomes to satisfy the holiness and justice of God. On the crossâpunishment is poured out upon him. Godâs justice is satisfied and we are forgivenâlegally clean.â He then goes to say that this is âdisastrously wrongâ. âGone is the great dance of the Trinity and the astonishing vision of the Father, Son and Spirit reaching out to share their life and glory with us.â (Well, what does he think Jesus Christ wasâchopped liver???) âIn its place we have a divine legalist who is extremely upset over human failure and sin, and we have Jesus coming to rescue us from God. The death of Jesus us now aimed at God rather than at human corruption and alienation. Jesus comes to do something to God, to satisfy his white-glove legalities, even to change God so that we can be forgiven.â And worst of all, Kruger states, âThis shift from the centrality of Jesus Christ to the centrality of the cross is the great sin of the Western Church and the greatest sin of all disasters.â I think a healthy discussion about the Cross, the Living Christ, the continuing work of God in Christ bring man from the beginnings of his creation to the after-life conclusion God has always had in mind -- would bring to bear on Kruger's comments. In all of his words, Kruger is trying to put the living Christ at the centre of the Christian experience. No scripture? He's high church. They are not, typically, Bible thumpers. It is a style of speaking or writing. I prefer meaningful thumping but, in my community of friends, I usually get nothing more than proof-texting. Which is better? I could stop right there and ask youâwho can possibly have a saving relationship with Christ with such a belief? I think no one. Kruger says that âWe hear a lot about forgiveness, but very little about the staggering reality of our inclusion in Jesusâ relationship with his Father in Spirit.â (Obviously Kruger has never had the charismatic experience.) I'm charismatic -- and I agree with Kruger. If I were to ask my brothers, tell me something about the forgiveness we have in Christ, I would get a fairly decent answer. If I then asked, tell me something about the sense of community that draws us further into the Divine Community, the response would not be as thorough. âWhen people speak of Christ as the Mediator, they mean that he stands between an angry God and sinful people and straightens out the legal mess. Gone is the vision that he is the point of union between divine human life. Gone is the vision that he is the connection between the Trinity and humans and he mediate the Triune life of God to us.â I donât know what planet Kruger inhabitsâbut the very lack of the experience that he says people have who believe in the âlegalistâ God is exactly the kind of relationship I have always experienced since coming to Christ through that very legalist God that he says prevents it! Keep in mind that Kruger is speaking from his base and his own personal experience. I was raised in a hell fire and damnation religious setting
Re: [TruthTalk] The End of Truthtalk
Some questions: Is biblical bias essentially 'systematic error'? E.g., with respect to the Holy Spirit's work relative to (y/our) entering the kingdom of God, can their be divergent biases(?); e.g. while the Holy Spirit indicates that JCs followers abandoned the Roman Empire to enter the kingdom of God, today will (or can) the Holy Spirit, contrary to JCs physical leadership, lead his people to patriotically embrace a worldly government? Is our government on the path into the kingdom of God? Any more so than (e.g.) the Roman Empire? Reagan's favorite President, Coolidge, said 'the business of America is business', a quote which GWB echoed/redacted in his recent convention speech. Doesn't this indicate that America's bias is essentially counter-spiritual at heart, worldly, perhaps, as worldly as any other world power? If so, how do Americans enter the kingdom of God? Can they enter in a way of their own design, politically; by another way than what JC through the Spirit teaches? Did JCs disciples actually abandon Rome? If they did, how so? Why? G On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 01:35:37 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..bias: systematic error..
