RE: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe
Similarity: It puts you under. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:25 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What I believe...and what I do not believe ETHER isn't that the stuff the dentist gives you when he has to extract your wisdom teeth? Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
Maybe it’s McDonalds that’s going to hell? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 2:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 That's really bad news for so many Americans. Terry, is it possible that God saves a glutton because He is able to and He wants to? Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the most part, we are fat because we consume too many calories. Call it gluttony; call it over-eating. It damages the "temple of God." Why is this person "saved" and the confessing "pervert" lost? tc: If a person is a glutton, sin is the pattern of their life and they are lost, as is the pervert who refuses to deny self . I do not know why. I just know that he is. I suppose one reason would be that the Bible says so and the Bible is the word of God. I would consider that a good enough reason that I would not question it. Sins of omission will send us to hell, under your gospel. How many minutes can I sit watching TV while not, at the same time, preaching to the lost? If you are watching the stuff Lance watches, not long. I collect 1:18 model cars. I just spent $250 on a 1955 Mercedes with something like 3600 individual parts - going to hell until I repent, take the car back and give the money to the local church or a needy ministry or a needy person? Had you seen a needy person on your way to buy that car, would you have not spent the money on that person. Seems I remember you doing something similar before. -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:25:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 As Terry said - all fat ppl are not gluttons but if you are concerned or interested here's a Bible Study: Gluttony & Drunkenness seem to go together like siamese twins (as an attitude of the heart) and under the Old Covenant they they were cause for a rebellious son who would not listen to be stoned (Deuteronomy 21:20) These two are also mentioned in tandem in Proverbs 23:20 Isaiah 5:21,22 Luke 21:34,35 Romans 13:13,14 Ephesians 5:18,19 On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:56:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is gluttony a sin? From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just as with a rich man, all things are possible in Christ. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are fat Christians save
RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
Raymond, note that I went back and ALSO showed you the scriptures that said GOD hardened Pharaoh’s heart; did you read those??? I also asked if you believe ALL of those scriptures, or only the ones that you agree with. I’m still waiting for answer, please. I’d really like to know. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bothoms Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:56 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Look ! I answered the question. The question was Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart? I answered that I have read Exodus -- in fact, I probably know the book better than you. As for the other part of the question, I quoted verses that say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Go back and read it . And not just selectively read it. Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK the question was do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart? and? Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I did and my reply was suited to it. Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Read the rest of the post! Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart? See the ? that indicates a QUESTION Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Are you a nut? Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Have you noticed? Raymond is not able to answer any questions! Q What color is your shirt? A I like golf. Q Which way to Canada? A I Drive a chevy. Bothoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Izzy: Raymond, Have you not read the book of Exodus, or do you just disagree with it when it says the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart? Raymond: Yes, I have read Exodus. Take a look at the following "And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." (Ex 7:22-23) "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:15) "Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaohs heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Ex 8:19) "And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Ex 8:32) "And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 9:7) "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children Israel go; as the LORD had spoken." (Ex 9:34-35) "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1Sam 6:6) Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
And HOW does he tell us this? And what does He do if we IGNORE Him? Izzy He tells us when we're wrong (judgment) so that we can turn and do right. Love, Caroline
[TruthTalk] So many posts; then none.
I didn’t look at TT for a day or so and then there were 184 posts! Now it’s after 9pm and I haven’t gotten a post since 3 pm. All these posts must have crashed TT I guess? Izzy
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
I don't think so JD; under the Old Covenant God called Israel as a nation His son and they sure suffered (leaving an example for us not to follow); behold the goodness and the severity of God. Your object lesson is limited JD because earthly fathers don't have the same problems with divine justice and/or holiness and their offspring are born in their image. But because of His love God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but it has and will continue to happen and ppl need to be warned. God is no heavenly replica of an earthly father. jt On Mon, 16 May 2005 02:31:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The biblical idea that God is our Father is a New Covenant consideration. Whatever old testament scripture one can quote concerning God, it must now be seen as a statement concerning the Father. It is the wrath of a father that is encountered in the new covenant age. In Christ, this father shed His blood for us -- while we were still sinners (and sinning). He does not leave that emotion behind when His emotion is one of anger or disappointment no more than a father stops loving his children when they miss up their lives. In fact, some fathers love their children more in that circumstance. Grace and mercy are all the more present. Jd From: Ruben Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying?
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
I don't believe Jesus was at this time using Himself as the example Caroline; remember He was born in Israel under the Law and his culture at the time tax collectors and pagans were ostracised and made outcasts which is similar to what Paul counselled the Corinthian Church to do with the man who refused to repent of his moral issues and accept correction. Paul advised turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that he would later repent and his soul would be saved We've not learned this lesson and this is why we are not receiving a whole lot from God. Under the Old Covenant everyone was expected to follow the Law which is our friend rather than an enemy; God's Commandments arn't grievious... and yes forgiveness is paramount if we want to walk with God. jt On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:59:14 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence. Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you. From: Kevin Deegan IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin. STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. He ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we are not as loud as some claim. And those 6 foot by 4 foot banners over our heads are not easy to spot! SINCE MR Johnson and his friends ignore MT 18 I think it only fair for us to follow thru on what he did not. We have attempted to talk to them as outlined and should now treat him as directed "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From ChristianityToday.com http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/14.18.html Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad about what happened at the LDS conference Winning Them SoftlyEvangelicals try to reach Mormons with respectand hard science.By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004 After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect. Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt Lake Citybased church have expressed both resentment and distrust. At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street Preachers Fellowship stomped on underclothes that LDS members consider holy. They also pretended to blow their noses and wipe their bottoms with the garments. Three dozen evangelical leaders condemned the actions. "You don't take what is sacred to another faith and denigrate it," said Greg C.V. Johnson, who leads Standing Together, a Salt Lake
RE: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. There does seem to be a renaissance of Catholics reading and studying the bible. Some are even moving beyond prescribed prayer. Not many but it's a start. Perhaps they will reform the church. Love, Caroline__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
How about Paul? Why did he have so much trouble thru the book of Acts?ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By your criteria were the OT prophets full of the fruit of the Spirit? Or were they not affable enough? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:55 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching It is possible as I posted the story of the atheist meeting the street preacher on Yonge St. and finding him affable and easy to talk to. That was the street preacher walking up and down while dressed as Jesus and carrying a cross. You know people by their fruit and this is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Would you agree that it is at least possible that the Holy Spirit can/does fill and guide street preachers also? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit and commissioned by God. Each word that he spoke was an inspiration of the Spirit. I'll leave ya'll from various camps to decide for yourselves what the Street Preachers are filled with and who commissioned them. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948. While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as he sauntered around preaching. His message was one of hell fire and brimstone...turn or burn. He sounded so angry.I had no problem with his message, but his method caused me to ask my wife, "Do you think this is really glorifying to God?" I question the method of standing on a street corner or in a public square and screaming out a gospel sermon. I thought, "If I was a lost person, how would I react to this man and his message?" After all, I am the one he would be targeting, so just how would I react? I have to say...with disgust. I would consider him to be a psych case...a cultist of a sort. Before the castigation starts, I am not questioning the man's motive nor his message...just his method. What do you think? Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
Through feelings? Through our heart? Through our understanding?ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And HOW does he tell us this? And what does He do if we IGNORE Him? Izzy He tells us when we're wrong (judgment) so that we can turn and do right. Love, Caroline__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? New Age "CHRISTianity" are you talking about incantations? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes Christ became a curse for us so that we don't have to walk in it - but we are. Something is very wrong because the Church is just as sick as the world. Go to any doctor's waiting room - you won't be able to tell the difference and this ought not to be. Why is the Church wearing the curse? Because we don't understand sin, righteousness, or judgment as Per Hosea 4:6 - while we are busy being nice folk and respecting ppl Satan is eating us for lunch and because pastors don't want to deal with it some are even teaching that this is a blessing. Caroline: I agree with you that on key things like divorce or sickness, there doesn't seem to be much difference between Christians and nonChristians. We do not seem to have the victorious life. I think it's because we're don't understand spiritual power and spiritual battle. The things that are powerful in the spiritual realm (prayer, forgiveness, confession, humility, love, generosity etc) are foolishness in the physical realm. You're right when you say Satan is eating people for lunch. I think when people get angry or become proud and arrogant, they open doors in the spiritual realm for all sorts of demons and spiritual junk. That's why I refrain from unnecesarily making people angry or proud. Unless someone is ready to hear, they won't hear. Forcing them to listen will only make them angry. Jesus said not to throw pearls before swine. Maybe your denomination has taught you that we will be perfected when the final trump sounds and the Church is raptured off to heaven. Well God doesn't need us perfected up there, he has enough perfect ones and no sin there. He needs us to do the work of the ministry here. Kevin may not believe exactly like me but he is busy doing what he believes God has called him to do and some of you are all over him like a rash in spite of what God says about division and strife (in his eyes this is the same as adultery) Grace and Peace, judyt Caroline My denomination (and many others) teach that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye at death. And that now we see poorly but after we'll see clearly. I personally believe God judges us whenever we sin so that we can know what not to do. Then He forgives us and teaches us so that not only will we know what to do, we'll be able to do that. Sin has consequences and can enslave us. His forgiveness frees us to obey Him. On most days, I have no problems allowing Kevin to do what he feels is his call. Today, God asked me if I wanted to be a Street Preacher. Would I like to hold up a sign and yell at Kevin and rebuke him.Oh yes! I cried. But on thinking it over, I think the better answer is no. To do so would be to harden Kevin. David might consider what I wrote, sift through my words for anything from God but Kevin will automatically assume everything I'm waving in his face or yelling at him is from the devil and we will end up yelling at each other to the detriment of both our souls. Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? Like Debbie, who is wiser that me, I may have to bow out of this arena. Love, Caroline Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
CW says Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? Why would you ask. You have posted extensively on it, and now you want to KNOW how I preach? Need more gossip I mean prayer requests for the Brethren? Don't you think you Mr Johson should have obeyed Matt 18 and not skipped step 1,2,3 and gone direct to the News media? Do you think christians that have a problem with Street Preaching should have gossip sessions with the brethren but not discuss their concerns with the SP? MT 18 Do you think the brethren should upon hearing that a SP did such and such go right to the brethren to repeat the story? Do you think it is possible that some Lost would have no problem creating lies to perpetuate? Do you think it possible that some lost would devise Devices, and use these to divide and conquer? ( that is their design separate the brethren) Wheres the UNITY? Why is it that Christians will believe a story from a Mormon, a gospel hater, a shop keeper concerned over mamon, even a satanist, and not take it to the offender (SP) when they have the opportunity? But they will take it direct to the Brethren? Do you think it is possible that some lost may actually hate the gospel? some may be actual enemies of the gospel? Christianity Today put my picture in that article. Did they even talk to any of us whoose reputation they dragged thru the mud, for our side of the story? The story must be gospel it is in print you know. Just wondering...Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: His code applies to you... and me. To all sinners. Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." Does your code also apply if you were preaching to a bunch of SODOMites? What would you preach seems like a popular message "God loves you just the way you are?"[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have reason to respect Ruben Israel. My comments are not personal. But --- "different strokes for different folks" is my response to Ruben's defense. What is in evidence, I suppose, is that preaching (including "street preaching") is an acceptable vehicle for spreading the message of hope. Except for the Noah example, what we have is a series of examples of how the message was presented to the children of God --- the Jews. We are repeatedly reminded that among these people of God, few would respond. Perhaps Heb 6:4-6 explains why. No doubt, preaching the message of God's love apart from His disappointment (His wrath) gives one something less than the full picture. I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." We are reminded that " no one has seen God at any time -- but if we love one another, God abides in us" I J 4:12. In fact, "if God loved us, we should love others" ( I J 4:11). I include the radical notion of love in my ministry because I see it in the words of Paul -- "I become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." The fulfillment of the Law gave us liberty -- but Paul reminds us that we are constrained by -- aah love !! " The gospel of John presents the very reason for the Incarnation -- "Because God loved the world " The Fatherhood of God is an exclusive New Testament consideration. At the centre of Fatherhood is this thing we seek to exclude - love. We dare not forget the very essence of God -- expressed in the statement "God is love." The letters of the apostles are full of considerate dialogue and loving guidance. Paul reminds us that knowledge has its limitations, but if we love, we are known by God. Where harsh straight talk may be the way to the Jewish heart, it certainly was not the norm in other venues. I include love in my ministry because people need to know about it. Salute. JD -Original Message-From: Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:46:34 -0700Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching To those that wish to comment on "street preaching," take note: Noah was called a "preacher of righteousness" during his time slot he preached righteousness to a perverted people and did anyone get saved? Would it have been more prudent for him to use his three sons and maybe start a band, singing to sinners in that wicked generation and using this friendship evangelism rather than preaching? Isaiah was told to "Lift aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Then why not say that? You know Jesus is always trying to trick us, LOL treat him like a Pagan!!! What a great opportunity for Jesus to teach your gospel and he blew it. Or are you saying GO out and find some pagans to minister to?Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence. Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin. STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. He ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we are not as loud as some claim. And those 6 foot by 4 foot banners over our heads are not easy to spot! SINCE MR Johnson and his friends ignore MT 18 I think it only fair for us to follow thru on what he did not. We have attempted to talk to them as outlined and should now treat him as directed "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From ChristianityToday.com http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/14.18.html Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad about what happened at the LDS conference Winning Them SoftlyEvangelicals try to reach Mormons with respectand hard science.By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004 After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect. Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt Lake Citybased church have expressed both resentment and distrust. At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street Preachers Fellowship stomped on underclothes that LDS members consider holy. They also pretended to blow their noses and wipe their bottoms with the garments. Three dozen evangelical leaders condemned the actions. "You don't take what is sacred to another faith and denigrate it," said Greg C.V. Johnson, who leads Standing Together, a Salt Lake City ministry to Mormons. "It doesn't take courage to treat a person you disagree with in a disdaining fashion." Johnson said he has been trying to build trust with LDS leaders for nearly three years. James Ayers, pastor of Valley Assembly of God, and 22 other evangelical leaders gathered at a press conference to denounce the street preachers. "You don't build any bridges with actions like that," Ayers said. "Our purpose is to let the community know that these people don't represent all Christians in the city. We believe people need to be treated with dignity." Mormon-evangelical dialogue isn't new, but until now it has been limited in scope. Johnson has engaged in high-level talks with Mormon leaders, and he has received two letters of gratitude from LDS apostles for denouncing the tactics of the street preachers. Civil discourseHe believes that evangelicals have a
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Right and of course it is not possible that we are not shouting (you False witness) and that the sinners are angry because they are not ready to hear God's word but came to an event to sin with both hands earnestly? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul ran into trouble for the same reason JD did. He was saying something the people weren't prepared to hear. When you do that, you don't have to shout to get people angry. Paul told the Jews that there is a new covenant, and a new way to salvation which included the Gentiles. JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Does the Book of Acts have an ending or should that style of preaching continue today? If we are to preach the NT "love gospel" why did paul run into so much trouble? Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. (LDS emulate Jews) 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them, 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 16:23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed 19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 19;32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 22:22-24 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 24:5-6 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To those that wish to comment on "street preaching," take note:Noah was called a "preacher of righteousness" during his time slot he preached righteousness to a perverted people and did anyone get saved? Would it have been more prudent for him to use his three sons and maybe start a band, singing to sinners in that wicked generation and using this friendship evangelism rather than preaching?Isaiah was told to "Lift aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins" (Is.58:1). Do we find Isaiah preaching a message of God wants you just the way you are? Find out how many messages he preached using the word "Woe" vs. "God loves you".Jeremiah was told to go and cry out against cities, people, individuals and a temple, his message was about as in your face as one can get. Should he have possibly just tried to get to know everyone, maybe coffee and pie, perhaps this result would have been fruitful and the message would have been accepted? In retrospect was it all Jeremiah's fault?Ezekiel, now here is someone I enjoy reading, this man uses more visual aids with his preaching (see Ezekiel for details) and again where do we find this message of God loves you even once in forty eight chapters? He was the watchman warning sinners of their sin. Ringing the bell, sounding the alarm, echoing caution, pointing out the sin trying to get into the camp (Ezk. 3 & 33).These are just a few men that preached in public a message in an ear that no one wanted to hear and that is why these men were persecuted, jailed and killed for it. When God sent someone like these individuals out of the bull pen you best take heed and understand that t
[TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!--- Begin Message --- Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment. --- End Message ---
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall discussing "methods." Just a comparison of messages, perhaps. And I do not consider my way better than someone's elses. But a rebuke without love is nothing more than hate speech. I have seen the love in some of Ruben's writings. I just hope that his street ministry has that passion as its base. Drive by preaching is a waste of time. Its when you stay and struggle with those who are being saved via your ministry that the tide is turned. We have an equal responsibility to disciple those who are being saved. I don't hear much about that around here. Jd === Your comment may be true in some cases, but there are examples in the Bible that do not line up with what you suggest. John, the Baptist rebuked with out love and Jesus called John the greatest man that ever lived. Like Ruben, he was a fore runner. He delivered the word and left the follow up to others. An evangelist often preceeds a pastor. When Paul came to Antioch, he preached for less than four months and was then run out of town. He came back two years later to find a church that had grown to the point that Paul was able to appoint elders from among the local boys to oversee this church that had never had a pastor. You may be right that the wimpy churches of today could not function for two years with out someone to pat them on the head and pick up their toys, but real Christians have done it. All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
There was a new covenant after that. God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Ruben Israel To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying?
Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
John Wesley, when it came to deciding God's will on controversial issues, used 4 things to guide him. Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience. This later became known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. In what way has Tradition, Reason and Experience influenced the people at TT? The RC believer come under similar influences. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha I believe that is because there are now laws that prohibit the RCC hierarchy from burning people at the stake for reading scripture. So they play along. At least if they lead the Bible studies they can brainwash their flock into making scripture inferior to the Traditions of the Church. Izzy There does seem to be a renaissance of Catholics reading and studying the bible. Some are even moving beyond prescribed prayer. Not many but it's a start. Perhaps they will reform the church. Love, Caroline
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not. All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at the office during lunch hour? Izzy -Original Message- And you can't ...speak hatefully to your fellow human being. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
And I thought the USA was a Godless country. Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDT CBC News REGINA – A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill Whatcott CBC file photo In 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott (Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment.
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit for a purpose. Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong. Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Did he mean something else? Or did the disciples miss a few towns here and there? Israel ain't that big and they have many teams. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching By your criteria were the OT prophets full of the fruit of the Spirit? Or were they not affable enough? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:55 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching It is possible as I posted the story of the atheist meeting the street preacher on Yonge St. and finding him affable and easy to talk to. That was the street preacher walking up and down while dressed as Jesus and carrying a cross. You know people by their fruit and this is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Would you agree that it is at least possible that the Holy Spirit can/does fill and guide street preachers also? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit and commissioned by God. Each word that he spoke was an inspiration of the Spirit. I'll leave ya'll from various camps to decide for yourselves what the Street Preachers are filled with and who commissioned them. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948. While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as he sauntered around preaching. His message was one of hell fire and brimstone...turn or burn. He sounded so angry.I had no problem with his message, but his method caused me to ask my wife, "Do you think this is really glorifying to God?" I question the method of standing on a street corner or in a public square and screaming out a gospel sermon. I thought, "If I was a lost person, how would I react to this man and his message?" After all, I am the one he would be targeting, so just how would I react? I have to say...with disgust. I would consider him to be a psych case...a cultist of a sort. Before the castigation starts, I am not questioning the man's motive nor his message...just his method. What do you think?
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Caroline Wong wrote: There was a new covenant after that. God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. Love, Caroline God's wrath sends thousands of people to eternal agony every hour. It is what they deserve for ignoring the sacrifice He made in their behalf. If you don't like that, too bad, but that is the way that it is. A wimpy one sided God is only love gospel just adds to that number. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
Caroline Wong wrote: John Wesley, when it came to deciding God's will on controversial issues, used 4 things to guide him. Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience. This later became known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. In what way has Tradition, Reason and Experience influenced the people at TT? The RC believer come under similar influences. Love, Caroline == What happens when reason and experience do not agree with scripture?
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. So He was not love then? I guess that is your way of saying, yes? Why not just take read for what it says? God is angry (as the verse clearly shows) everyday of every week of every year or as you asked 24/7? We do have consistency here with Old and New, how can someone read the book of Revelation and conclude God destroys nations, people the earth? Let me try this again, Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying?
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
The biblical idea that God is our Father is a New Covenant consideration. Whatever old testament scripture one can quote concerning God, it must now be seen as a statement concerning the Father. It is the wrath of a father that is encountered in the new covenant age. In Christ, this father shed His blood for us -- while we were still sinners (and sinning). He does not leave that emotion behind when His emotion is one of anger or disappointment no more than a father stops loving his children when they miss up their lives. In fact, some fathers love their children more in that circumstance. Grace and mercy are all the more present. You read ALL this from that one verse, why not just take read for what it says? I guess that is your way of saying, yes God is angry (as the verse clearly shows) everyday of every week of every year or as the question was asked? Is this not 24/7 as the question? If all we do is push God loves you than we misrepresent God, We make God look schizophrenic. I love now but I will destroy you in fire for eternity then? It has been my experience that this thinking makes people become pagans, atheists or even wink at other gods.
RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
JD, why is it that whenever someone resists a message in the OT they simply pass it off by saying “That was just for the Jews”? Is Jewish nature different from Gentile nature? Is God a respecter of persons? The truth is unrepentant, unsaved sinners are the same, nomatter their race or creed. They are not inside God’s love barrier—which is crossed only by repentance in Christ’s redemption—but on the outside. That is why prophets must warn them of where they are. Those with tender hearts respond by heeding the message, and are saved. Izzy Prov 18:10 10The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:03 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I personally have reason to respect Ruben Israel. My comments are not personal. But --- "different strokes for different folks" is my response to Ruben's defense. What is in evidence, I suppose, is that preaching (including "street preaching") is an acceptable vehicle for spreading the message of hope. Except for the Noah example, what we have is a series of examples of how the message was presented to the children of God --- the Jews. We are repeatedly reminded that among these people of God, few would respond. Perhaps Heb 6:4-6 explains why. No doubt, preaching the message of God's love apart from His disappointment (His wrath) gives one something less than the full picture. I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." We are reminded that " no one has seen God at any time -- but if we love one another, God abides in us" I J 4:12. In fact, "if God loved us, we should love others" ( I J 4:11). I include the radical notion of love in my ministry because I see it in the words of Paul -- "I become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." The fulfillment of the Law gave us liberty -- but Paul reminds us that we are constrained by -- aah love !! " The gospel of John presents the very reason for the Incarnation -- "Because God loved the world " The Fatherhood of God is an exclusive New Testament consideration. At the centre of Fatherhood is this thing we seek to exclude - love. We dare not forget the very essence of God -- expressed in the statement "God is love." The letters of the apostles are full of considerate dialogue and loving guidance. Paul reminds us that knowledge has its limitations, but if we love, we are known by God. Where harsh straight talk may be the way to the Jewish heart, it certainly was not the norm in other venues. I include love in my ministry because people need to know about it. Salute. JD -Original Message- From: Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:46:34 -0700 Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching To those that wish to comment on "street preaching," take note: Noah was called a "preacher of righteousness" during his time slot he preached righteousness to a perverted people and did anyone get saved? Would it have been more prudent for him to use his three sons and maybe start a band, singing to sinners in that wicked generation and using this friendship evangelism rather than preaching? Isaiah was told to "Lift aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins" (Is.58:1). Do we find Isaiah preaching a message of God wants you just the way you are? Find out how many messages he preached using the word "Woe" vs. "God loves you". Jeremiah was told to go and cry out against cities, people, individuals and a temple, his message was about as in your face as one can get. Should he have possibly just tried to get to know everyone, maybe coffee and pie, perhaps this result would have been fruitful and the message would have been accepted? In retrospect was it all Jeremiah's fault? Ezekiel, now here is someone I enjoy reading, this man uses more visual aids with his preaching (see Ezekiel for details) and again where do we find this message of God loves you even once in forty eight chapters? He was the watchman warning sinners of their sin. Ringing the bell, sounding the alarm, echoing caution, pointing out the sin trying to get into the camp (Ezk. 3 & 33). These are just a few men that preached in public a message in an ear that no one wanted to hear and that is why these men were persecuted, jailed and killed for it. When God sent someone like these individuals out of the
RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
Caroline, thank you for denigrating my capabilities of understanding. Is it possible that you might not understand something yourself? Have I promoted SP's making "racist or sexist remarks" or "bullying"? You are off the subject and don't even know it. MY point is that "hate speech" is not what SP's do by warning sinners that what they are doing is wrong. Hate speech is what human beings do every day by slandering and gossiping, and no law in Canada will stop that. The anti-hate laws are created by sinful men to censor free speech which is not politically correct. It is of satan. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not. All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism > Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any > family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at > the office during lunch hour? Izzy > > -Original Message- > And you can't ...speak hatefully to > your fellow human being. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee DAVEH: I agree, Kevin. Jesus was not a man before he was born. But, I believe he was literally the Son of Man. When did that happen?.after his birth. Not only was he the Son of Man, but he himself became a man, and was subsequently resurrected after his death when his spirit body was united with a physical body of flesh and bones to become an exalted man. With what part of this do you disagree, Kevin? Kevin Deegan wrote: If I incorrectly told you items about my wife Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we married, where she was born (it was not Jerusalem : ) She would not be pleased. Her desire is that I know her. God wants you to know him, He is a jealous God He wants your love and affection. If your description of Him is off, you are worshipping a god of your own making Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] baptism
Could you answer a few questions I have? DAVEH: That becomes a problem, Kevin. I hardly have time to read all the TT posts, let alone answer the pertinent ones. Many times I don't see a need to respond to your posts, as they don't seem to ask questions. Other times, the questions you ask seem more rhetorical. But I do have quite a few of your posts highlighted and hope to get to them as I can. However, I am getting more of them than I can possibly respond to. Kevin Deegan wrote: IF one of the parties does not want to have a meaningful exchange The real question is which of the parties that might be. Could you answer a few questions I have? Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: Nothing will make for easier discussions, IF one of the parties does not want to have a meaningful exchange, Kevin. I view TT as being a place where two or more people of contrasting opinions can explore why other's believe differently. I perceive that some TTers (such as yourself) are here not to have a meaningful discussion unless it results in the other person adopting your beliefs. Basically, you want to use TT as a forum to convert people to Christianity as you understand it...is that correct? Assuming so, you probably don't feel a need to find areas of common belief, but rather cut right to the chase and try to overwhelm your opponent with their error of thought/belief as you perceive it. Have I analyzed it correctly, Kevin? I harbor no illusions about changing your anti attitudes, Kevin. But I am curious as to why you are as you a re (and why you believe as you do), if that makes any sense. It's just one of my hang-ups I suppose. === That's not a hang up, Dave. That is the Lord trying to get you to see the truth. You are seeking because what you have does not satisfy. My fee is only fifty bucks. We live in an economocally challenged area where things are less expensive. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Don’t you think the SP’s are going from town to town? Is the Holy Spirit different today than it was then? Why did Jesus say that greater works would we do than He did if the Holy Spirit is less powerful now? So you have found another mistake in the uninspired Bible? Jesus told his disciples He would come in His Kingdom before they preached to all the cities in Israel—which He did. Maybe you missed it? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:08 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit for a purpose. Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong. Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Did he mean something else? Or did the disciples miss a few towns here and there? Israel ain't that big and they have many teams. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching By your criteria were the OT prophets full of the fruit of the Spirit? Or were they not affable enough? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:55 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching It is possible as I posted the story of the atheist meeting the street preacher on Yonge St. and finding him affable and easy to talk to. That was the street preacher walking up and down while dressed as Jesus and carrying a cross. You know people by their fruit and this is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Would you agree that it is at least possible that the Holy Spirit can/does fill and guide street preachers also? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:18 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit and commissioned by God. Each word that he spoke was an inspiration of the Spirit. I'll leave ya'll from various camps to decide for yourselves what the Street Preachers are filled with and who commissioned them. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948. While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as he sauntered around preaching. His message was one of hell fire and brimstone...turn or burn. He sounded so angry. I had no problem with his message, but his method caused me to ask my wife, "Do you think this is really glorifying to God?" I question the method of standing on a street corner or in a public square and screaming out a gospel sermon. I thought, "If I was a lost person, how would I react to this man and his message?" After all, I am the one he would be targeting, so just how would I react? I have to say...with disgust. I would consider him to be a psych case...a cultist of a sort. Before the castigation starts, I am not questioning the man's motive nor his message...just his method. What do you think?
Re: [TruthTalk] baptism
DAVEH: ??? So you are suggesting that the things I mentioned---apostles, prophets, temples, etc.---are not necessary today, Kevin? If so, I respectfully disagree. Kevin Deegan wrote: DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed prophets. WE have "THE Prophet" Luke 1 And thou, child, shalt be called THE PROPHET of the Highest DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed the Priesthood RV 1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. JESUS IS HIGH PRIEST Heb 5:6 Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec v10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. UNENDING PRIEST HB 7 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. HB 7 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. HB 7 Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. HB 7 For the priesthood being changed APOSTLE & HIGH PRIEST HB 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed Temples Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands 1 Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 PT 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: Is it better to realize something is missing, and search for it? Or is it better to feel comfortable assuming nothing is missing, and then stubbornly deny the need for more knowledge of the gospel? The Lord's people of Bible times needed prophets. The Lord's people of Bible times needed revelation The Lord's people of Bible times needed further Scripture The Lord's people of Bible times needed the Priesthood The Lord's people of Bible times needed Temples Could it be a Pride in their own Righteousness that would cause some today to label LDS (Liars, Deceivers, SEDUCERS) and then suggest we do not need the things the Lord's people needed in Bible times??? Kevin Deeg an wrote: The WHOLE Mormon argument is you are missing something. You need further revelation your Bible is incomplete, in error and lacking in the truth You have the Bible BUT do you have the Book of Mormon? (Like the recent TV add) You need Joe Smith You need the priesthood You need the Temple etc. So LDS beguile unstable souls with enticing words Col 2:4 HERE FOLLOWS THE ONLY SECTION WHICH MAY BY ANY STRETCH (or BEND) OF THE IMAGINATION BE CONSTRUED AS AN ASPERSION: In actuallity it is LDS who are generally full of Pride in their own Righteousness They have so much you don't have after all. This is why some label LDS (Liars, Deceivers, SEDUCERS) -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit. As Paul was preparing others for his departure: Acts 20 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall discussing "methods." Just a comparison of messages, perhaps. And I do not consider my way better than someone's elses. But a rebuke without love is nothing more than hate speech. I have seen the love in some of Ruben's writings. I just hope that his street ministry has that passion as its base. Drive by preaching is a waste of time. Its when you stay and struggle with those who are being saved via your ministry that the tide is turned. We have an equal responsibility to disciple those who are being saved. I don't hear much about that around here. Jd ===Your comment may be true in some cases, but there are examples in the Bible that do not line up with what you suggest. John, the Baptist rebuked with out love and Jesus called John the greatest man that ever lived. Like Ruben, he was a fore runner. He delivered the word and left the follow up to others. An evangelist often preceeds a pastor. When Paul came to Antioch, he preached for less than four months and was then run out of town. He came back two years later to find a church that had grown to the point that Paul was able to appoint elders from among the local boys to oversee this church that had never had a pastor. You may be right that the wimpy churches of today could not function for two years with out someone to pat them on the head and pick up their toys, but real Christians have done it. All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit. Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Blaine wrote: > These street preachers mostly just annoy people, > make a spectacle of themselves. You seem to omit from mention the many converts they have made among the Mormons. Blaine wrote: > There must be a better way for them to communicate their > messages, which in some instances might actually do some > lost souls some good if they could be approached less > obtrusively, and with a show of dignity--a virtue that seems > lost on them. There was a man by the name of James White who took this approach for 18 years before the Street Preachers came to the Mormon conferences. He too was upset with the arrival of the Street Preachers. Maybe someone should ask God why he decided to change his approach toward the Mormons. Peace be with you.David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
$17,000 fine for handing out literature? The PC crowd is very INTOLERANT even of words! But to hear them talk that is a different story, they love to tell you how open they are!Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And I thought the USA was a Godless country.Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo!Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
CW sas God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: His Love is the MOST INTENSE Love you will ever find. So is His WRATH! HINT answer is found in the BIBLE: Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Nahum 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. Sounds like more than a bad hair day to me! Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Caroline Wong wrote: There was a new covenant after that. God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. Love, CarolineGod's wrath sends thousands of people to eternal agony every hour. It is what they deserve for ignoring the sacrifice He made in their behalf. If you don't like that, too bad, but that is the way that it is. A wimpy one sided God is only love gospel just adds to that number.Terry Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
why is it that whenever someone resists a message in the OT they simply pass it off by saying That was just for the Jews? Haven't you been paying attention? Different CULTURE! ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: JD, why is it that whenever someone resists a message in the OT they simply pass it off by saying That was just for the Jews? Is Jewish nature different from Gentile nature? Is God a respecter of persons? The truth is unrepentant, unsaved sinners are the same, nomatter their race or creed. They are not inside Gods love barrierwhich is crossed only by repentance in Christs redemptionbut on the outside. That is why prophets must warn them of where they are. Those with tender hearts respond by heeding the message, and are saved. Izzy Prov 18:10 10The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:03 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I personally have reason to respect Ruben Israel. My comments are not personal. But --- "different strokes for different folks" is my response to Ruben's defense. What is in evidence, I suppose, is that preaching (including "street preaching") is an acceptable vehicle for spreading the message of hope. Except for the Noah example, what we have is a series of examples of how the message was presented to the children of God --- the Jews. We are repeatedly reminded that among these people of God, few would respond. Perhaps Heb 6:4-6 explains why. No doubt, preaching the message of God's love apart from His disappointment (His wrath) gives one something less than the full picture. I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." We are reminded that " no one has seen God at any time -- but if we love one another, God abides in us" I J 4:12. In fact, "if God loved us, we should love others" ( I J 4:11). I include the radical notion of love in my ministry because I see it in the words of Paul -- "I become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." The fulfillment of the Law gave us liberty -- but Paul reminds us that we are constrained by -- aah love !! " The gospel of John presents the very reason for the Incarnation -- "Because God loved the world " The Fatherhood of God is an exclusive New Testament consideration. At the centre of Fatherhood is this thing we seek to exclude - love. We dare not forget the very essence of God -- expressed in the statement "God is love." The letters of the apostles are full of considerate dialogue and loving guidance. Paul reminds us that knowledge has its limitations, but if we love, we are known by God. Where harsh straight talk may be the way to the Jewish heart, it certainly was not the norm in other venues. I include love in my ministry because people need to know about it. Salute. JD -Original Message-From: Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:46:34 -0700Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching To those that wish to comment on "street preaching," take note: Noah was called a "preacher of righteousness" during his time slot he preached righteousness to a perverted people and did anyone get saved? Would it have been more prudent for him to use his three sons and maybe start a band, singing to sinners in that wicked generation and using this friendship evangelism rather than preaching? Isaiah was told to "Lift aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins" (Is.58:1). Do we find Isaiah preaching a message of God wants you just the way you are? Find out how many messages he preached using the word "Woe" vs. "God loves you". Jeremiah was told to go and cry out against cities, people, individuals and a temple, his message was about as in your face as one can get. Should he have possibly just tried to get to know everyone, maybe coffee and pie, perhaps this result would have been fruitful and the message would have been accepted? In retrospect was it all Jeremiah's fault? Ezekiel, now here is someone I enjoy reading, this man uses more visual aids with his preaching (see Ezekiel for details) and again where do we find this message of God loves you even once in forty eight chapters? He was the watchman warning sinners of their sin. Ringing the bell, sounding the alarm, echoing caution, pointing out the sin trying to get into the camp (Ezk. 3 & 33). These are just a few men that preached in public a message in an ear that
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Ruben says Why not just take read for what it says? When CW and the Word conflict JUST CHANGE it.Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. So He was not love then? I guess that is your way of saying, yes? Why not just take read for what it says? God is angry (as the verse clearly shows) everyday of every week of every year or as you asked 24/7? We do have consistency here with Old and New, how can someone read the book of Revelation and conclude God destroys nations, people the earth? Let me try this again, Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying? Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out!
!Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Caroline Wong wrote: > It's not the preaching outside that I object to. Oh, good, I am glad to hear that. Caroline Wong wrote: > It's the yelling at people and insulting them that > I object to. This is not dialogue or apologetics; > it's bullying. I can't imagine Jesus screaming "whore" > and "harlot" at Samaritan women. What street preacher did you witness using such methods? I would like to know names, places, dates, and contact information like email addresses or websites, etc. I've preached with scores of street preachers across this nation and I don't think I have ever witnessed such things. Jesus offended many with his preaching and teaching. The proof of this is in how they reacted toward him and ultimately by the fact of his crucifixion. If you are walking as Jesus walked, people will be looking for ways to malign you, misrepresent you, hurt you, and kill you, and if they are not, either you have not started ministry yet, or something is wrong with your ministry. None of us are above our Master. Caroline Wong wrote: > Something is very wrong here and as a Christian, I protest. > I do not agree with Mormon beliefs but I have enormous > respect for all those who endured the persecution with grace > and dignity. You have respect for the Mormon persecution? Is this what you are saying? Joseph Smith as Mayor of the largest city in Illinois and Military General of a State Militia ordered the destruction of printing presses that criticized his polygamy. In response to this gross abuse of political power and sundry other things, he was arrested and a mob broke into the jail and killed him after he had killed some of the angry mob with a gun that had been smuggled in. Are you going on record as saying that you are sympathetic to his suffering persecution in this event? Caroline Wong wrote: > As a Christian, I would like to apologize to all the > Mormons here who were screamed at and insulted. Before you jump on the bandwagon here, you need to go down to Salt Lake City and see what is going on for yourself. I believe that your apology is based upon your being too eager to believe gossip. Caroline Wong wrote: > Not all Christians are like that and not all Street Preachers > are like that. I hope you'll give us another chance to explain > our beliefs. Sweet Caroline. You are falling for the Mormon deception here. Wake up. The Mormons are not ignorant of your beliefs. They have judged your beliefs as false and hope for the opportunity for you to explain your beliefs only so they can show you how they have a belief system that goes beyond yours and has better answers. The Scriptures teach us to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. You had better get about the business of doing that. Those who love the truth will hear you, and those who hate the truth will deride you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
It is not a two way road as amply illustrated by CW's false witness. CW believes SP's use hate speech, SP's scream and she is willing to perpetuate her HATE all the while, under the ruse of being nice and polite. Just questioning whether it is the best practice to scream at the sinners, sort of like the concerned christian who asks "when did you stop beating your wife?" Guilty without any evidence. To then perpetuate the story is to bear tales. ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Caroline, thank you for denigrating my capabilities of understanding. Is itpossible that you might not understand something yourself? Have I promotedSP's making "racist or sexist remarks" or "bullying"? You are off thesubject and don't even know it. MY point is that "hate speech" is not whatSP's do by warning sinners that what they are doing is wrong. Hate speechis what human beings do every day by slandering and gossiping, and no law inCanada will stop that. The anti-hate laws are created by sinful men tocensor free speech which is not politically correct. It is of satan. Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptismThis may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not.All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at> the office during lunch hour? Izzy>> -Original Message-> And you can't ...speak hatefully to> your fellow human being.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
What was he before he "became a man"? Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of theeDAVEH: I agree, Kevin. Jesus was not a man before he was born. But, I believe he was literally the Son of Man. When did that happen?.after his birth. Not only was he the Son of Man, but he himself became a man, and was subsequently resurrected after his death when his spirit body was united with a physical body of flesh and bones to become an exalted man. With what part of this do you disagree, Kevin?Kevin Deegan wrote: If I incorrectly told you items about my wife Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we married, where she was born (it was not Jerusalem : ) She would not be pleased. Her desire is that I know her. God wants you to know him, He is a jealous God He wants your love and affection. If your description of Him is off, you are worshipping a god of your own making Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
DAVEH: Does JW now employ the same obnoxious tactics? David Miller wrote: There was a man by the name of James White who took this approach for 18 years before the Street Preachers came to the Mormon conferences. He too was upset with the arrival of the Street Preachers. Maybe someone should ask God why he decided to change his approach toward the Mormons. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
CW says OT prophets were filled with the Spirit for a purpose. Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong. Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. There she goes again. First she puts words in our mouths, " Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong." Then she tells us we are not fulfilling the mission of the APOSTLES which she just gave us, "Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. " Apostles? We never claimed to be Apostles! Then she starts instructing us on how to fulfill the Apostles mission! "They left a town if the town will not accept the message." Your problem seems to be extensive! ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dont you think the SPs are going from town to town? Is the Holy Spirit different today than it was then? Why did Jesus say that greater works would we do than He did if the Holy Spirit is less powerful now? So you have found another mistake in the uninspired Bible? Jesus told his disciples He would come in His Kingdom before they preached to all the cities in Israelwhich He did. Maybe you missed it? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:08 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit for a purpose. Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong. Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Did he mean something else? Or did the disciples miss a few towns here and there? Israel ain't that big and they have many teams. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching By your criteria were the OT prophets full of the fruit of the Spirit? Or were they not affable enough? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:55 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching It is possible as I posted the story of the atheist meeting the street preacher on Yonge St. and finding him affable and easy to talk to. That was the street preacher walking up and down while dressed as Jesus and carrying a cross. You know people by their fruit and this is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Would you agree that it is at least possible that the Holy Spirit can/does fill and guide street preachers also? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit and commissioned by God. Each word that he spoke was an inspiration of the Spirit. I'll leave ya'll from various camps to decide for yourselves what the Street Preachers are filled with and who commissioned them. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948. While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as he sauntered around preaching. His message was one of hell fire and brimstone...turn or burn. He sounded so angry.I had no problem with his message, but his method caused me to ask my wife, "Do you think this is really glorifying to God?" I question the method of standing on a street corner or in a public square and screaming out a gospel sermon. I thought, "If I was a lost person, how would I react to
[TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
*Note Subject Change Subject was "Rikk Watts on Genesis 1" and is now "Copying the Bible" Caroline Wong wrote: > Both errors are likely. People could deliberately > add words to bolster the text and make it sound > better. Wait just one minute, please. If you were copying the Scriptures, you would try real hard to copy it accurately, would you not? Would *YOU* truly add words to bolster the text and make it sound better? I'm talking about *YOU*. Think about this carefully. I would venture to say that if you were copying the Holy Scriptures, you would not add any words at all to make it sound better. I know that I would not. Caroline Wong wrote: > In fact, Christians have been known to write whole > books and letters and attribute them to Paul or John > or some other Apostle. There was a lot of controversy > and uncertainty so adding words make things more plain. You are confusing outright forgery with monks copying the sacred text. When scribes were copying texts, they were very careful NOT to add words and NOT to subtract words. With this underlying paradigm at work here, which mistake is most likely to take place? Would the addition of words or the omission of words be the most likely to occur if your modus operandi was trying to copy the text exactly and not add or subtract words? I think the omission of words would be the most likely mistake. Caroline Wong wrote: > Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found > early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like > the ending to Mark or the story in John about the woman > caught in adultery. Mark can be explained by saying the > manuscript lost its ending but how do we explain John :-) > We don't. We just put a note and say it's not in the early > manuscripts. You give up on explanations way too quickly! It could be that the guy doing the copying was called to lunch by his buddy and when he came back, he picked up his copying efforts in the wrong place. It also could be that the part of the text he was copying from was damaged. Maybe he spilled his coffee on it, and so he planned to come back later when he could get an undamaged copy. I haven't examined these manuscripts myself directly, but I have read reports of those who have that passages like Mark 16 actually have a large blank space where the omitted passage would fit. It looks like indeed the copyist planned to come back later and fill it in. This suggests to me that the copy he was working from was probably damaged in that place. Caroline Wong wrote: > If copyists lost words as they copied, the later manuscripts > would have less words than the early ones. Now you are thinking, but your assumption here is that all later manuscripts were copied from all earlier ones. This is not true. Many times copies were made that became a dead end. In other words, no further copies were made from them. I think this is the case with these two older manuscripts. We need to keep this fact of TWO manuscripts in mind because you talk about older manuscripts and some people might get the idea that there are a bunch of them. The truth is that we are talking about TWO manuscripts which differ significantly from about 5,000 manuscripts that have a more recent date. The big question is how this could be, which is why Westcott and Hort came up with their Syrian recension theory. They postulated that these older Egyptian manuscripts were right but the majority of other manuscripts were wrong because there was a big mistake made early on from which all these other copies were made. It makes much more sense that these two older manuscripts in Egypt are the ones which were mistaken, especially when you consider that the Sinaiticus text was found in a trash can at Saint Katherine's monastery. (Incidentally, for trivia's sake, I would like to mention that I have visited this monastery and spent the night there.) Furthermore, the text was in all capital letters with no spaces between the words. Was this perhaps some fun experiment some monk was doing because of his boredom with copying texts all day long? For all we know, it was a teenager given the task as homework, and he didn't even want to be doing it. Maybe he was playing around with it like a modern day teenager does with video games. If he was not a teenager, maybe he was someone just trying to make the Word of God more encrypted? Who knows, but when we consider that the monks at this monastery had such little opinion of this Bible that they threw it away in the trash can, one must wonder why the modern scholars want to put so much stock in it. The only thing it has going for it is its older date. Is that really enough? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this li
Re: [TruthTalk] baptism
Maybe we can stick to one thread, Betwixt us, then?Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Could you answer a few questions I have?DAVEH: That becomes a problem, Kevin. I hardly have time to read all the TT posts, let alone answer the pertinent ones. Many times I don't see a need to respond to your posts, as they don't seem to ask questions. Other times, the questions you ask seem more rhetorical. But I do have quite a few of your posts highlighted and hope to get to them as I can. However, I am getting more of them than I can possibly respond to.Kevin Deegan wrote: IF one of the parties does not want to have a meaningful exchange The real question is which of the parties that might be. Could you answer a few questions I have? Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: Nothing will make for easier discussions, IF one of the parties does not want to have a meaningful exchange, Kevin. I view TT as being a place where two or more people of contrasting opinions can explore why other's believe differently. I perceive that some TTers (such as yourself) are here not to have a meaningful discussion unless it results in the other person adopting your beliefs. Basically, you want to use TT as a forum to convert people to Christianity as you understand it...is that correct? Assuming so, you probably don't feel a need to find areas of common belief, but rather cut right to the chase and try to overwhelm your opponent with their error of thought/belief as you perceive it. Have I analyzed it correctly, Kevin? I harbor no illusions about changing your anti attitudes, Kevin. But I am curious as to why you are as you a re (and why you believe as you do), if that makes any sense. It's just one of my hang-ups I suppose. ===That's not a hang up, Dave. That is the Lord trying to get you to see the truth. You are seeking because what you have does not satisfy.My fee is only fifty bucks. We live in an economocally challenged area where things are less expensive. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[TruthTalk] Free Speech
*Note Subject Change Subject was "baptism" and is now "Free Speech" Caroline Wong wrote: > Canada understands that free speech is meant to serve > a democratic society. You can't yell fire in a crowded > theatre. You can't do false advertising. You can't claim > credentials you don't have. You can't lie while under oath > in a court room. And you can't slander, libel, intimidate, > threaten or speak hatefully to your fellow human being. > We put a high value on people. Americans put high value > on principles and rights. We have the same restrictions on speech here in this country, and I agree with them. All this is contained in the commandment, "thou shalt not bear false witness." I very much disagree, however, with Canada's ruling that Romans 1 and Leviticus 20:13 exposes homosexuals to hatred. What about you? Do you agree or disagree with the idea that Christians who would publish references to these verses in newspapers should be prosecuted and found guilty of human rights violations? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] baptism
DAVEH: ??? So you are suggesting that the things I mentioned---apostles, prophets, temples, etc.---are not necessary today, Kevin? If so, I respectfully disagree. Obviously not! I posted here to show we do have priests. We have Jesus the HIGH PRIEST who has an UNENDING Priesthood. Each & every believer holds the priesthood. In a separate post I listed the responsibilities of such. Each & every believer is the TEMPLE made without hands, where God wants to come and dwell. What a awesome thought, what a responsibility. God wants to take that old house of flash and make it Holy and dwell inside there! Seemed you were claiming that LDS had something that Christians do not and that Christians should desire those things.Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: ??? So you are suggesting that the things I mentioned---apostles, prophets, temples, etc.---are not necessary today, Kevin? If so, I respectfully disagree. Kevin Deegan wrote: DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed prophets.WE have "THE Prophet" Luke 1 And thou, child, shalt be called THE PROPHET of the Highest DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed the Priesthood RV 1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. JESUS IS HIGH PRIEST Heb 5:6 Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec v10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. UNENDING PRIEST HB 7 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. HB 7 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. HB 7 Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. HB 7 For the priesthood being changed APOSTLE & HIGH PRIEST HB 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus DH says The Lord's people of Bible times needed Temples Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands 1 Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 PT 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: Is it better to realize something is missing, and search for it? Or is it better to feel comfortable assuming nothing is missing, and then stubbornly deny the need for more knowledge of the gospel? The Lord's people of Bible times needed prophets. The Lord's people of Bible times needed revelation The Lord's people of Bible times needed further Scripture The Lord's people of Bible times needed the Priesthood The Lord's people of Bible times needed Temples Could it be a Pride in their own Righteousness that would cause some today to label LDS (Liars, Deceivers, SEDUCERS) and then suggest we do not need the things the Lord's people needed in Bible times???Kevin Deeg an wrote: The WHOLE Mormon argument is you are missing something. You need further revelation your Bible is incomplete, in error and lacking in the truth You have the Bible BUT do you have the Book of Mormon? (Like the recent TV add) You need Joe Smith You need the priesthood You need the Temple etc. So LDS beguile unstable souls with enticing words Col 2:4 HERE FOLLOWS THE ONLY SECTION WHICH MAY BY ANY STRETCH (or BEND) OF THE IMAGINATION BE CONSTRUED AS AN ASPERSION: In actuallity it is LDS who are generally full of Pride in their own Righteousness They have so much you don't have after all. This is why some label LDS (Liars, Deceivers, SEDUCERS)-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! MailStay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
[TruthTalk] Carolyn asks: Did we miss it? Was: Street Preaching
From: "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:07:49 -0500 Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Carolyn, I would love to hear your answer to the question you posed above. Can you provide a little rationale along with your answer, too, instead of a simple yes or no? This is an area in which I have an interest and on which I like to hear different viewpoints. If anyone else would like to answer this question, please do. Each of us probably has a unique viewpoint on this issue. Yes, you mormon boys are invited, too. Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
CW All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. So Canadian Culture has successfully done what no other culture in the history of man has done? Do you have kids? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not.All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at> the office during lunch hour? Izzy>> -Original Message-> And you can't ...speak hatefully to> your fellow human being.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Caroline Wong wrote: > God is love. Now in light of His being love, > tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? How about we start with the following description of God's wrath: Revelation 16:1-21 (1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. (3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. (5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. (6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. (7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. (8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. (9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. (12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Do you find yourself in agreement with this description of God's wrath? Do you say, "you are righteous Lord for judging this way" or are you troubled by this description of God? Do you try to find ways to explain it away? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
I am no authority on copying or scripture origins, but I have understood that when biblical texts were copied, the copyists understood they were on a mission from God, (what could be more blessed than being entrusted with accurately copying the Holy Word of God?) and that intentionally doing anything other than a perfect job would be considered bearing false witness and blasphemy. Also, they were checked and double checked, letter by letter, and if even one letter was in error, the entire page was scrapped and the source recopied. Maybe this explains the texts found in the trash. Maybe they had a letter wrong. Or a smudge. Perry From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: Subject: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:16:32 -0400 *Note Subject Change Subject was "Rikk Watts on Genesis 1" and is now "Copying the Bible" Caroline Wong wrote: > Both errors are likely. People could deliberately > add words to bolster the text and make it sound > better. Wait just one minute, please. If you were copying the Scriptures, you would try real hard to copy it accurately, would you not? Would *YOU* truly add words to bolster the text and make it sound better? I'm talking about *YOU*. Think about this carefully. I would venture to say that if you were copying the Holy Scriptures, you would not add any words at all to make it sound better. I know that I would not. Caroline Wong wrote: > In fact, Christians have been known to write whole > books and letters and attribute them to Paul or John > or some other Apostle. There was a lot of controversy > and uncertainty so adding words make things more plain. You are confusing outright forgery with monks copying the sacred text. When scribes were copying texts, they were very careful NOT to add words and NOT to subtract words. With this underlying paradigm at work here, which mistake is most likely to take place? Would the addition of words or the omission of words be the most likely to occur if your modus operandi was trying to copy the text exactly and not add or subtract words? I think the omission of words would be the most likely mistake. Caroline Wong wrote: > Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found > early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like > the ending to Mark or the story in John about the woman > caught in adultery. Mark can be explained by saying the > manuscript lost its ending but how do we explain John :-) > We don't. We just put a note and say it's not in the early > manuscripts. You give up on explanations way too quickly! It could be that the guy doing the copying was called to lunch by his buddy and when he came back, he picked up his copying efforts in the wrong place. It also could be that the part of the text he was copying from was damaged. Maybe he spilled his coffee on it, and so he planned to come back later when he could get an undamaged copy. I haven't examined these manuscripts myself directly, but I have read reports of those who have that passages like Mark 16 actually have a large blank space where the omitted passage would fit. It looks like indeed the copyist planned to come back later and fill it in. This suggests to me that the copy he was working from was probably damaged in that place. Caroline Wong wrote: > If copyists lost words as they copied, the later manuscripts > would have less words than the early ones. Now you are thinking, but your assumption here is that all later manuscripts were copied from all earlier ones. This is not true. Many times copies were made that became a dead end. In other words, no further copies were made from them. I think this is the case with these two older manuscripts. We need to keep this fact of TWO manuscripts in mind because you talk about older manuscripts and some people might get the idea that there are a bunch of them. The truth is that we are talking about TWO manuscripts which differ significantly from about 5,000 manuscripts that have a more recent date. The big question is how this could be, which is why Westcott and Hort came up with their Syrian recension theory. They postulated that these older Egyptian manuscripts were right but the majority of other manuscripts were wrong because there was a big mistake made early on from which all these other copies were made. It makes much more sense that these two older manuscripts in Egypt are the ones which were mistaken, especially when you consider that the Sinaiticus text was found in a trash can at Saint Katherine's monastery. (Incidentally, for trivia's sake, I would like to mention that I have visited this monastery and spent the night there.) Furthermore, the text was in all capital letters with no spaces between the words. Was this perhaps some fun experiment some monk was doing because of his boredom with copying texts all day long? For all we know, it was a teenager given the task as homework, and he didn
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
There was a man by the name of James White who took this approach for 18 years before the Street Preachers came to the Mormon conferences. He too was upset with the arrival of the Street Preachers. There are other "evangelical" one on one witness/tracting ministries to Mormons, that have operated for years in Salt lake and at other events. The only acceptable ministry to the mormons is NO ministry. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai153.html 1) They were targets of the Mormons before we became the new targets. Even though they practice "kinder gentler Loving" ministry. http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/mrm-anti-mormon.html 2) The Evangelical Ministries bought into the lies and deceit being heaped upon the SP's 3) The Evangelicals who have been eyewitnesses have changed their tune and now support us to at least some degree 4) The MIA Ministries that I rarely if ever see doing any work in public, still regard us as portrayed in the stories they pass along. 5) Mr Johnson had his day in the news and has now moved on to bigger fish and the evangelicals are fumed at what Mr Johson hath wrought http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/richard-mouw.html On a personal note I worked for about 10 years with a one on one tracting ministry to the mormons. I have seen more LDS saved in just one weekend of preaching at general conference than all 10 years in the tracting/witnessing ministry. By the way JD, we send the new believers to local ChurchesDavid Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Blaine wrote: > These street preachers mostly just annoy people, > make a spectacle of themselves. You seem to omit from mention the many converts they have made among the Mormons. Blaine wrote: > There must be a better way for them to communicate their > messages, which in some instances might actually do some > lost souls some good if they could be approached less > obtrusively, and with a show of dignity--a virtue that seems > lost on them. There was a man by the name of James White who took this approach for 18 years before the Street Preachers came to the Mormon conferences. He too was upset with the arrival of the Street Preachers. Maybe someone should ask God why he decided to change his approach toward the Mormons. Peace be with you.David Miller. Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Ruben Israel wrote: The biblical idea that God is our Father is a New Covenant consideration. Whatever old testament scripture one can quote concerning God, it must now be seen as a statement concerning the Father. It is the wrath of a father that is encountered in the new covenant age. In Christ, this father shed His blood for us -- while we were still sinners (and sinning). He does not leave that emotion behind when His emotion is one of anger or disappointment no more than a father stops loving his children when they miss up their lives. In fact, some fathers love their children more in that circumstance. Grace and mercy are all the more present. = The children of God are the ones who walk in the spirit. Those who walk in the flesh are His enemy. Romans, chapter eight, if you believe the Bible.. If not, never mind. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
DAVEH: Does JW now employ the same obnoxious tactics? He only hands out literature. What is so OBNOXIOUS? Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: Does JW now employ the same obnoxious tactics?David Miller wrote: There was a man by the name of James White who took this approach for 18 years before the Street Preachers came to the Mormon conferences. He too was upset with the arrival of the Street Preachers. Maybe someone should ask God why he decided to change his approach toward the Mormons. Peace be with you.David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
DaveH wrote: > Does JW now employ the same obnoxious tactics? No, James White is against the approach of the Street Preachers. I actually wrote him several times trying to urge him to work with the street preachers, because he has some good apologetic literature on the subject, but he wanted nothing to do with them. If you ask me, White was a little jealous of how the street preachers had all the attention of the Mormons making White's tract passing efforts futile in comparison, but White would never admit to this. I told him the same thing I have said in this forum. Someone needs to ask God why he sent the street preachers there. Peace be with you.David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
Caroline Wong wrote: > If copyists lost words as they copied, the later manuscripts > would have less words than the early ones. By the way, I hope you do realize that the modern versions of the Bible for the most part do have less words than the older ones. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Caroline Wong wrote: > Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles > were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town > will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. These were specific instructions regarding a specific ministry trip. Later, before Jesus even died, he gave them different instructions, teaching them to stay in Jerusalem. Jerusalem did not receive their message, yet they stayed there. (See Luke 22:35-36 for how Jesus made a transition in ministry instructions to his apostles.) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
It is a shame why can't we work together? I guess he got his feathers ruffled and he left cause we "poisoned the waters" If he was really interested in ministry to LDS and wnated to avoid us, he could go to a different location. (The Temple sq is a whole city block) Seems more interested in coffee breaks.David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DaveH wrote: > Does JW now employ the same obnoxious tactics? No, James White is against the approach of the Street Preachers. I actually wrote him several times trying to urge him to work with the street preachers, because he has some good apologetic literature on the subject, but he wanted nothing to do with them. If you ask me, White was a little jealous of how the street preachers had all the attention of the Mormons making White's tract passing efforts futile in comparison, but White would never admit to this. I told him the same thing I have said in this forum. Someone needs to ask God why he sent the street preachers there. Peace be with you.David Miller. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Sorry I never wrote this: Ruben (the real one) Ruben Israel wrote: The biblical idea that God is our Father is a New Covenant consideration. Whatever old testament scripture one can quote concerning God, it must now be seen as a statement concerning the Father. It is the wrath of a father that is encountered in the new covenant age. In Christ, this father shed His blood for us -- while we were still sinners (and sinning). He does not leave that emotion behind when His emotion is one of anger or disappointment no more than a father stops loving his children when they miss up their lives. In fact, some fathers love their children more in that circumstance. Grace and mercy are all the more present. =The children of God are the ones who walk in the spirit. Those who walk in the flesh are His enemy. Romans, chapter eight, if you believe the Bible..If not, never mind.Terry
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
I know. Don't know how your name got up there. My apology for making you lokk like a liberal. Terry Ruben Israel wrote: Sorry I never wrote this: Ruben (the real one) Ruben Israel wrote: The biblical idea that God is our Father is a New Covenant consideration. Whatever old testament scripture one can quote concerning God, it must now be seen as a statement concerning the Father. It is the wrath of a father that is encountered in the new covenant age. In Christ, this father shed His blood for us -- while we were still sinners (and sinning). He does not leave that emotion behind when His emotion is one of anger or disappointment no more than a father stops loving his children when they miss up their lives. In fact, some fathers love their children more in that circumstance. Grace and mercy are all the more present. = The children of God are the ones who walk in the spirit. Those who walk in the flesh are His enemy. Romans, chapter eight, if you believe the Bible.. If not, never mind. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
I agree with you that we can not change ourselves despite what modernity, philosophy, positive thinking and philosophy say. It is the Holy Spirit that transforms us and there is no limit to what He can do. Kevin, you understand that sinners can not do good. Why do you expect those who do not know God or the bible to accept biblical teaching and to stop sinning? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:36 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. There does seem to be a renaissance of Catholics reading and studying the bible. Some are even moving beyond prescribed prayer. Not many but it's a start. Perhaps they will reform the church. Love, Caroline __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
My dear Kevin, I'm sorry if I had accused you of shouting and you weren't. Perhaps you never raised your voice but went around as quiet as a church mouse and those horrid sinners, perverts, fornicators jumped all over you for no reason at all. Perhaps your voice is never heard more than 25 ft away and every man seeking eternal life must come close to you to hear words of truth. If that is so, then I do owe you an apology. I was never an eye witness to your preaching and only know you by what you post here and by what I read of other people's accounts. Would Reuben or David or anyone else at the LDS convention like to testify as to whether shouting took place? Is shouting the norm for Street Preachers or do they just quietly hand out tracts and await an invitation to engage in conversation? If one met up with 10 SPs, how many are shouters and how many are not? Oh wait, those are dumb questions. I just remembered reading that Street Preachers carry bullhorns. So you weren't shouting after all. And I do apologize for accusing you of shouting. In the future, I should just say "saying things that your listeners perceived as mean, belittling, insulting and enraging in a mechanically amplified voice in a public arena." which I'll shorten to "street preaching" for future reference. But you weren't shouting. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Right and of course it is not possible that we are not shouting (you False witness) and that the sinners are angry because they are not ready to hear God's word but came to an event to sin with both hands earnestly? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul ran into trouble for the same reason JD did. He was saying something the people weren't prepared to hear. When you do that, you don't have to shout to get people angry. Paul told the Jews that there is a new covenant, and a new way to salvation which included the Gentiles. JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Does the Book of Acts have an ending or should that style of preaching continue today? If we are to preach the NT "love gospel" why did paul run into so much trouble? Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. (LDS emulate Jews) 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them, 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 16:23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed 19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 19;32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 22:22-24 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 24:5-6 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedit
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
He tells us in many ways as He is not limited by anything. He tells us through scripture, through other people, through experiences and through prayer. These are only just some of the ways. If we ignore Him, then the consequences of our sins grow and we become more enslaved. He continues to speak to us and He may have to use pain and adversity to do so. He never abandons us. He never stops loving us. I should also add that not all pain, adversity and illness is the result of personal sin. It could be the sin of other people or just living in a fallen world. It'll take real wisdom and knowledge to tell another why he is suffering and what he should do about it. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 And HOW does he tell us this? And what does He do if we IGNORE Him? Izzy He tells us when we're wrong (judgment) so that we can turn and do right. Love, Caroline
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
The Holy Spirit gives some the gift of discerning of spirits. Such people can see angels and demons. They can see how the actions of humans affect the warfare all around us. Be careful not to mock what you do not understand. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? New Age "CHRISTianity" are you talking about incantations? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes Christ became a curse for us so that we don't have to walk in it - but we are. Something is very wrong because the Church is just as sick as the world. Go to any doctor's waiting room - you won't be able to tell the difference and this ought not to be. Why is the Church wearing the curse? Because we don't understand sin, righteousness, or judgment as Per Hosea 4:6 - while we are busy being nice folk and respecting ppl Satan is eating us for lunch and because pastors don't want to deal with it some are even teaching that this is a blessing. Caroline: I agree with you that on key things like divorce or sickness, there doesn't seem to be much difference between Christians and nonChristians. We do not seem to have the victorious life. I think it's because we're don't understand spiritual power and spiritual battle. The things that are powerful in the spiritual realm (prayer, forgiveness, confession, humility, love, generosity etc) are foolishness in the physical realm. You're right when you say Satan is eating people for lunch. I think when people get angry or become proud and arrogant, they open doors in the spiritual realm for all sorts of demons and spiritual junk. That's why I refrain from unnecesarily making people angry or proud. Unless someone is ready to hear, they won't hear. Forcing them to listen will only make them angry. Jesus said not to throw pearls before swine. Maybe your denomination has taught you that we will be perfected when the final trump sounds and the Church is raptured off to heaven. Well God doesn't need us perfected up there, he has enough perfect ones and no sin there. He needs us to do the work of the ministry here. Kevin may not believe exactly like me but he is busy doing what he believes God has called him to do and some of you are all over him like a rash in spite of what God says about division and strife (in his eyes this is the same as adultery) Grace and Peace, judyt Caroline My denomination (and many others) teach that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye at death. And that now we see poorly but after we'll see clearly. I personally believe God judges us whenever we sin so that we can know what not to do. Then He forgives us and teaches us so that not only will we know what to do, we'll be able to do that. Sin has consequences and can enslave us. His forgiveness frees us to obey Him. On most days, I have no problems allowing Kevin to do what he feels is his call. Today, God asked me if I wanted to be a Street Preacher. Would I like to hold up a sign and yell at Kevin and rebuke him.Oh yes! I cried. But on thinking it over, I think the better answer is no. To do so would be to harden Kevin. David might consider what I wrote, sift through my words for anything from God but Kevin will automatically assume everything I'm waving in his face or yelling at him is from the devil and we will end up yelling at each other to the detriment of both our souls. Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? Like Debbie, who is wiser that me, I may have to bow out of this arena. Love, Caroline Do you Yahoo!?Make Yahoo! your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
There is spiritual protection in leading a righteous life and there is protection in belonging to a godly community. When Paul advised the Corinthians to expel the immoral brother, it was so that he can experience the full consequences of his sin. In his follow up letter, 2 Cor, he told them to take him back in because he repented. We can't force people to love God or to obey Him. We can only let people choose. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I don't believe Jesus was at this time using Himself as the example Caroline; remember He was born in Israel under the Law and his culture at the time tax collectors and pagans were ostracised and made outcasts which is similar to what Paul counselled the Corinthian Church to do with the man who refused to repent of his moral issues and accept correction. Paul advised turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that he would later repent and his soul would be saved We've not learned this lesson and this is why we are not receiving a whole lot from God. Under the Old Covenant everyone was expected to follow the Law which is our friend rather than an enemy; God's Commandments arn't grievious... and yes forgiveness is paramount if we want to walk with God. jt On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:59:14 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence. Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you. From: Kevin Deegan IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin. STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. He ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we are not as loud as some claim. And those 6 foot by 4 foot banners over our heads are not easy to spot! SINCE MR Johnson and his friends ignore MT 18 I think it only fair for us to follow thru on what he did not. We have attempted to talk to them as outlined and should now treat him as directed "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From ChristianityToday.com http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/14.18.html Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad about what happened at the LDS conference Winning Them SoftlyEvangelicals try to reach Mormons with respectand hard science.By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004 After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
I ask because it is possible you're totally unaware of how you come across to people. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching CW says Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? Why would you ask. You have posted extensively on it, and now you want to KNOW how I preach? Need more gossip I mean prayer requests for the Brethren? Don't you think you Mr Johson should have obeyed Matt 18 and not skipped step 1,2,3 and gone direct to the News media? Do you think christians that have a problem with Street Preaching should have gossip sessions with the brethren but not discuss their concerns with the SP? MT 18 Do you think the brethren should upon hearing that a SP did such and such go right to the brethren to repeat the story? Do you think it is possible that some Lost would have no problem creating lies to perpetuate? Do you think it possible that some lost would devise Devices, and use these to divide and conquer? ( that is their design separate the brethren) Wheres the UNITY? Why is it that Christians will believe a story from a Mormon, a gospel hater, a shop keeper concerned over mamon, even a satanist, and not take it to the offender (SP) when they have the opportunity? But they will take it direct to the Brethren? Do you think it is possible that some lost may actually hate the gospel? some may be actual enemies of the gospel? Christianity Today put my picture in that article. Did they even talk to any of us whoose reputation they dragged thru the mud, for our side of the story? The story must be gospel it is in print you know. Just wondering...Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: His code applies to you... and me. To all sinners. Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." Does your code also apply if you were preaching to a bunch of SODOMites? What would you preach seems like a popular message "God loves you just the way you are?"[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have reason to respect Ruben Israel. My comments are not personal. But --- "different strokes for different folks" is my response to Ruben's defense. What is in evidence, I suppose, is that preaching (including "street preaching") is an acceptable vehicle for spreading the message of hope. Except for the Noah example, what we have is a series of examples of how the message was presented to the children of God --- the Jews. We are repeatedly reminded that among these people of God, few would respond. Perhaps Heb 6:4-6 explains why. No doubt, preaching the message of God's love apart from His disappointment (His wrath) gives one something less than the full picture. I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." We are reminded that " no one has seen God at any time -- but if we love one another, God abides in us" I J 4:12. In fact, "if God loved us, we should love others" ( I J 4:11). I include the radical notion of love in my ministry because I see it in the words of Paul -- "I become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." The fulfillment of the Law gave us liberty -- but Paul reminds us that we are constrained by -- aah love !! " The gospel of John presents the very reason for the Incarnation -- "Because God loved the world " The Fatherhood of God is an exclusive New Testament consideration. At the centre of Fatherhood is this thing we seek to exclude - love. We dare not forget the very essence of God -- expressed in the statement "God is love." The letters of the apostles are full of considerate dialogue and loving guidance. Paul reminds us that knowledge has its limitations, but if we love, we are known by God. Where harsh straight
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Jesus said no one born of women is greater than John the Baptist. Does that include Jesus himself? Then Jesus said the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. What did he mean by that? How are all of us here greater than John? Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall discussing "methods." Just a comparison of messages, perhaps. And I do not consider my way better than someone's elses. But a rebuke without love is nothing more than hate speech. I have seen the love in some of Ruben's writings. I just hope that his street ministry has that passion as its base. Drive by preaching is a waste of time. Its when you stay and struggle with those who are being saved via your ministry that the tide is turned. We have an equal responsibility to disciple those who are being saved. I don't hear much about that around here. Jd ===Your comment may be true in some cases, but there are examples in the Bible that do not line up with what you suggest. John, the Baptist rebuked with out love and Jesus called John the greatest man that ever lived. Like Ruben, he was a fore runner. He delivered the word and left the follow up to others. An evangelist often preceeds a pastor. When Paul came to Antioch, he preached for less than four months and was then run out of town. He came back two years later to find a church that had grown to the point that Paul was able to appoint elders from among the local boys to oversee this church that had never had a pastor. You may be right that the wimpy churches of today could not function for two years with out someone to pat them on the head and pick up their toys, but real Christians have done it. All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit.
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
Canada is by far a more secular country than America. Less Christians, less bible believers etc etc. Yet it is a safer, kinder, gentler place. Does being a Christian nation automatically makes one more intolerant? South Africa was and is a Christian nation. At one point they had apartheid and much violence and injustice. Then society changed radically and the people in power ushered in national reconciliation and forgiveness. Both were expressions of Christian heritage and thought. My brother spent 5 years doing medical research in Boston and acquired a lot of American friends. They visit occasionally and here are just some samples of things that surprised them. - seeing children of various races playing together in school yards and playgrounds - the amount of mix couples - actual phone books in phone booths - very few ghettos and abandoned houses. Does being a Christian nation automatically means we have a mindset that divides people into racial and economic categories? When I watch the Olympics, I see that the American team is one of the most racially mixed and that always makes me very happy. It is God's will that, as far as it is possible, we live at peace with one another. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada And I thought the USA was a Godless country.Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo!Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
This is where we part company in terms of theology. I don't believe God send people to eternal agony. And this is because love is strong, not wimpy. Love can take the tantrums of a 2 year old, the messiness of a toddler and the sins of a child without over reacting. God can handle all the things that are wrong in this world. He promised that everything will be restored in the end and so it shall be. Love Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong wrote: There was a new covenant after that. God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. Love, CarolineGod's wrath sends thousands of people to eternal agony every hour. It is what they deserve for ignoring the sacrifice He made in their behalf. If you don't like that, too bad, but that is the way that it is. A wimpy one sided God is only love gospel just adds to that number.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
Then you wrestle with it and pray and talk with other people. You can also lay down for a while and pick up later. And you can accept that new experience and reasoning may change what you concluded yesterday. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha Caroline Wong wrote: John Wesley, when it came to deciding God's will on controversial issues, used 4 things to guide him. Scripture. Tradition. Reason. Experience. This later became known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. In what way has Tradition, Reason and Experience influenced the people at TT? The RC believer come under similar influences. Love, Caroline==What happens when reason and experience do not agree with scripture?
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
No, Ruben, God is always love. He is ontologically love meaning that His being is love. Why is He angry with sinners 24/7? What is His wrath like? Or His hate? That's what must be struggled through. The bible is a story that has a beginning, a middle (complete with the climax of the crucifixion) and an ending. In a novel, even if a character stays the same, the situation in the beginning is very different from the ending. The same character may end up reacting differently even if he is unchanged during the whole story. Hebrews says that God spoke to us in various ways through his prophets but in the last days, he has spoken to us through His Son. Now that we know the ending, the beginning looks different to us. We know God is Trinity in the garden of Eden. We know He has been seeking the sons of Adam since then. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Ruben Israel To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. So He was not love then? I guess that is your way of saying, yes? Why not just take read for what it says? God is angry (as the verse clearly shows) everyday of every week of every year or as you asked 24/7? We do have consistency here with Old and New, how can someone read the book of Revelation and conclude God destroys nations, people the earth? Let me try this again, Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying?
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
Thank you for correcting me. But bullying is hate. Thinking this is how the kingdom is advanced is deception. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:31 AM Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Caroline, thank you for denigrating my capabilities of understanding. Is it possible that you might not understand something yourself? Have I promoted SP's making "racist or sexist remarks" or "bullying"? You are off the subject and don't even know it. MY point is that "hate speech" is not what SP's do by warning sinners that what they are doing is wrong. Hate speech is what human beings do every day by slandering and gossiping, and no law in Canada will stop that. The anti-hate laws are created by sinful men to censor free speech which is not politically correct. It is of satan. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not. All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at the office during lunch hour? Izzy -Original Message- And you can't ...speak hatefully to your fellow human being. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Do you believe the gifts of prophecy, tongues and healing are still in effect today? Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Dont you think the SPs are going from town to town? Is the Holy Spirit different today than it was then? Why did Jesus say that greater works would we do than He did if the Holy Spirit is less powerful now? So you have found another mistake in the uninspired Bible? Jesus told his disciples He would come in His Kingdom before they preached to all the cities in Israelwhich He did. Maybe you missed it? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:08 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit for a purpose. Anyone who think they have the same mission and anointing is most likely wrong. Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Did he mean something else? Or did the disciples miss a few towns here and there? Israel ain't that big and they have many teams. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching By your criteria were the OT prophets full of the fruit of the Spirit? Or were they not affable enough? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:55 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching It is possible as I posted the story of the atheist meeting the street preacher on Yonge St. and finding him affable and easy to talk to. That was the street preacher walking up and down while dressed as Jesus and carrying a cross. You know people by their fruit and this is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Would you agree that it is at least possible that the Holy Spirit can/does fill and guide street preachers also? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline WongSent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching The OT prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit and commissioned by God. Each word that he spoke was an inspiration of the Spirit. I'll leave ya'll from various camps to decide for yourselves what the Street Preachers are filled with and who commissioned them. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I think the same could be said for every one of the OT Prophets, that is, the ones through whom we received the scriptures. They were all street preachers and the reaction of Israel before the dispersion was the equivalent of this Baptist fellow. Psych case huh? jt On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:59:37 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This was posted on the discussion board of baptistboard.com by dh1948. While visiting in Mobile recently, my wife and I were downtown walking past the Bienville Square. Walking around in the square was a street preacher. He was screaming...and I mean screaming...to the top of his lungs as h
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
The PC crowd has no tolerance for hate literature. No ACLU in Canada, remember. Either the Evangelist will choose fines and jail (and jail is frequent in some countries like China) or he will find other ways to bring the gospel to the people. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada $17,000 fine for handing out literature? The PC crowd is very INTOLERANT even of words! But to hear them talk that is a different story, they love to tell you how open they are!Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And I thought the USA was a Godless country.Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo!Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
There is a video on one of the links Kevin sent regarding SPs outside the LDS convention. One video showed the SP drowning out 6 singing missionaries and ignoring a man who was trying to engage him in conversation. Because the community is rather small, I'm sure you'll have no problem recognizing that man :-) Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:25 AM Subject: !Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong wrote: It's not the preaching outside that I object to. Oh, good, I am glad to hear that. Caroline Wong wrote: It's the yelling at people and insulting them that I object to. This is not dialogue or apologetics; it's bullying. I can't imagine Jesus screaming "whore" and "harlot" at Samaritan women. What street preacher did you witness using such methods? I would like to know names, places, dates, and contact information like email addresses or websites, etc. I've preached with scores of street preachers across this nation and I don't think I have ever witnessed such things. Jesus offended many with his preaching and teaching. The proof of this is in how they reacted toward him and ultimately by the fact of his crucifixion. If you are walking as Jesus walked, people will be looking for ways to malign you, misrepresent you, hurt you, and kill you, and if they are not, either you have not started ministry yet, or something is wrong with your ministry. None of us are above our Master. Caroline Wong wrote: Something is very wrong here and as a Christian, I protest. I do not agree with Mormon beliefs but I have enormous respect for all those who endured the persecution with grace and dignity. You have respect for the Mormon persecution? Is this what you are saying? Joseph Smith as Mayor of the largest city in Illinois and Military General of a State Militia ordered the destruction of printing presses that criticized his polygamy. In response to this gross abuse of political power and sundry other things, he was arrested and a mob broke into the jail and killed him after he had killed some of the angry mob with a gun that had been smuggled in. Are you going on record as saying that you are sympathetic to his suffering persecution in this event? Caroline Wong wrote: As a Christian, I would like to apologize to all the Mormons here who were screamed at and insulted. Before you jump on the bandwagon here, you need to go down to Salt Lake City and see what is going on for yourself. I believe that your apology is based upon your being too eager to believe gossip. Caroline Wong wrote: Not all Christians are like that and not all Street Preachers are like that. I hope you'll give us another chance to explain our beliefs. Sweet Caroline. You are falling for the Mormon deception here. Wake up. The Mormons are not ignorant of your beliefs. They have judged your beliefs as false and hope for the opportunity for you to explain your beliefs only so they can show you how they have a belief system that goes beyond yours and has better answers. The Scriptures teach us to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. You had better get about the business of doing that. Those who love the truth will hear you, and those who hate the truth will deride you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
CW says Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like the ending to Mark Again you are Brewing New Age MOONSHINE! ManuscriptS? How many? Must be a lot to throw out all those verses, 9-20! The Evidence of the Greek: consisting of some eighteen (18) uncials and some six hundred (600) cursive MSS. (618) which contain the Gospel of Mark) there is not one which leaves out these twelve verses. So out of the 620 extant manuscripts that contain the chapter we have 618 that contain 9-20 and 2 that do not Aleph & B Considering the character of aleph & B, this would be akin to 618 witnesses testifying in court in total agreement against a defendant. But wait two more witnesses show. They both disagree with the 618 but also with each other! Witnesses that can not agree on the facts or each other, this is the nature of these hopelessly corrupt manuscripts. The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible has this to say about Codex Vaticanus (B) on page 624 under article Versions. Quote: " It should be noted, however, that there is no prominent Biblical MS. in which there occur such gross cases of misspelling, faulty grammar, and omission, as in B." (Ref:H2) "Aleph B D are three of the most scandalously corrupt copies extant: exhibit the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with: have become, by whatever process (for their history is wholly unknown), the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders, and intentional perversions of Truth which are discoverable in any known copies of the Word of God." Burgon, Revision Revised, p 16 Dean John William Burgon "The Revision Revised", 1881, p. 11; "Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the Critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substitued, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree." These two ms are the corrupt foundation that the new bibles are built on. Evidence from Church fathers: http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/patristic_chart.htm Cited by many of the early church fathers such as Justin (165 AD), Tertullian (220 AD), Hippolytus (235 AD), Ambrose (397 AD) and Augustine (430 AD). Irenaeus (155 AD) Evidence of the versions: The SYRIAC. The oldest is the Syriac in its various forms: the " Peshitto " (cent. 2), and the "Curetonian Syriac"(cent. 3). Both are older than any Greek 315. in existence, and both contain these twelve verses. As also does the "Philoxenian"(cent. 5) and the "Jerusalem" (cent. 5) contain these twelve verses The LATIN Versions: JEROME (A. D. 382), who had access to Greek MSS. older than any now extant, includes these twelve verses; but this Version (known as the Vulgate) was only a revision of the Vetus ITALA, which is believed to belong to cent. 2, and also contains these verses. The GOTHIC Version (A. D. 350) contains them. The EGYPTIAN Versions: the Memphitic (or Lower Egyptian, otherwise known as "COPTIC"), belonging to cent. 4 or 5, contains them; as does the "THE BMC "(Or Upper Egyptian, otherwise known as the "SAHIDIC"), belonging to cent. 3 contains them. The ARMENIAN (cent. 5), the ETHIOPIC (cent. 4-7), and the GEOROIAN (cent. 6) also contains them and bear witness to the genuineness of these verses. The evidence of the blank space: "To say that the Vatican Codex (B)... ends abruptly at the 8th verse of the 16th chapter [of Mark's Gospel], and that the customary subscription (kata Markon) follows, is true - but it is far from being the whole truth. It requires to be stated in addition that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to begin every fresh book of the Bible at the top of the next ensuing column to that which contained the concluding words of the preceding book, has at the close of S. Mark's Gospel deviated from his else invariable practice. He has left in this place one column entirely vacant. It is the only column in the whole manuscript - a blank space abundantly sufficient to contain the twelve verses which he nevertheless withheld... The older MS from Codex B was copied must have infallibly contained the twelve verses in dispute. The copyist was instructed to
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
You never commented on whether the situation was handled as a christian ought.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is spiritual protection in leading a righteous life and there is protection in belonging to a godly community. When Paul advised the Corinthians to expel the immoral brother, it was so that he can experience the full consequences of his sin. In his follow up letter, 2 Cor, he told them to take him back in because he repented. We can't force people to love God or to obey Him. We can only let people choose. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I don't believe Jesus was at this time using Himself as the example Caroline; remember He was born in Israel under the Law and his culture at the time tax collectors and pagans were ostracised and made outcasts which is similar to what Paul counselled the Corinthian Church to do with the man who refused to repent of his moral issues and accept correction. Paul advised turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that he would later repent and his soul would be saved We've not learned this lesson and this is why we are not receiving a whole lot from God. Under the Old Covenant everyone was expected to follow the Law which is our friend rather than an enemy; God's Commandments arn't grievious... and yes forgiveness is paramount if we want to walk with God. jt On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:59:14 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence. Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you. From: Kevin Deegan IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin. STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. He ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we are not as loud as some claim. And those 6 foot by 4 foot banners over our heads are not easy to spot! SINCE MR Johnson and his friends ignore MT 18 I think it only fair for us to follow thru on what he did not. We have attempted to talk to them as outlined and should now treat him as directed "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From ChristianityToday.com http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/14.18.html Looks like I'm not the only Christian who felt bad about what happened at the LDS conference Winning Them SoftlyEvangelicals try to reach Mormons with respectand hard science.By John W. Kennedy | posted 01/16/2004 After years of ineffective and often acrimonious evangelism by various preachers and groups, a new coalition of evangelical clergy in Utah is attempting to treat Latter-day Saints (LDS) with respect. Many orthodox Christians have denounced LDS theology throughout the church's history. Not surprisingly, leaders of the 11.7 million-member Salt Lake Citybased church have expressed both resentment and distrust. At the LDS semiannual general conference in October, adherents of the Utah chapter of World Wide Street
Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
I wouldn't add words but some copyists did. One of your president, Thomas Jefferson, separated out what he considered religious dogma and the supernatural from the ethical teachings of the bible to make his own bible. Other people added words and phrases to incorporate their dogma into the work. That's just how humans are. By the way, it was not the Codex Sinaiticus that von Tischendorf found in the garbage can, not that it's all that important. For the full history of the Codex, check out this site: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/C/Co/Codex_Sinaiticus.htm Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible *Note Subject Change Subject was "Rikk Watts on Genesis 1" and is now "Copying the Bible" Caroline Wong wrote: Both errors are likely. People could deliberately add words to bolster the text and make it sound better. Wait just one minute, please. If you were copying the Scriptures, you would try real hard to copy it accurately, would you not? Would *YOU* truly add words to bolster the text and make it sound better? I'm talking about *YOU*. Think about this carefully. I would venture to say that if you were copying the Holy Scriptures, you would not add any words at all to make it sound better. I know that I would not. Caroline Wong wrote: In fact, Christians have been known to write whole books and letters and attribute them to Paul or John or some other Apostle. There was a lot of controversy and uncertainty so adding words make things more plain. You are confusing outright forgery with monks copying the sacred text. When scribes were copying texts, they were very careful NOT to add words and NOT to subtract words. With this underlying paradigm at work here, which mistake is most likely to take place? Would the addition of words or the omission of words be the most likely to occur if your modus operandi was trying to copy the text exactly and not add or subtract words? I think the omission of words would be the most likely mistake. Caroline Wong wrote: Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like the ending to Mark or the story in John about the woman caught in adultery. Mark can be explained by saying the manuscript lost its ending but how do we explain John :-) We don't. We just put a note and say it's not in the early manuscripts. You give up on explanations way too quickly! It could be that the guy doing the copying was called to lunch by his buddy and when he came back, he picked up his copying efforts in the wrong place. It also could be that the part of the text he was copying from was damaged. Maybe he spilled his coffee on it, and so he planned to come back later when he could get an undamaged copy. I haven't examined these manuscripts myself directly, but I have read reports of those who have that passages like Mark 16 actually have a large blank space where the omitted passage would fit. It looks like indeed the copyist planned to come back later and fill it in. This suggests to me that the copy he was working from was probably damaged in that place. Caroline Wong wrote: If copyists lost words as they copied, the later manuscripts would have less words than the early ones. Now you are thinking, but your assumption here is that all later manuscripts were copied from all earlier ones. This is not true. Many times copies were made that became a dead end. In other words, no further copies were made from them. I think this is the case with these two older manuscripts. We need to keep this fact of TWO manuscripts in mind because you talk about older manuscripts and some people might get the idea that there are a bunch of them. The truth is that we are talking about TWO manuscripts which differ significantly from about 5,000 manuscripts that have a more recent date. The big question is how this could be, which is why Westcott and Hort came up with their Syrian recension theory. They postulated that these older Egyptian manuscripts were right but the majority of other manuscripts were wrong because there was a big mistake made early on from which all these other copies were made. It makes much more sense that these two older manuscripts in Egypt are the ones which were mistaken, especially when you consider that the Sinaiticus text was found in a trash can at Saint Katherine's monastery. (Incidentally, for trivia's sake, I would like to mention that I have visited this monastery and spent the night there.) Furthermore, the text was in all capital letters with no spaces between the words. Was this perhaps some fun experiment some monk was doing because of his boredom with copying texts all day long? For all we know, it was a teenager given the task as homework, and he didn't even want to be doing it. Maybe he was playing around with it like a mod
Re: [TruthTalk] Free Speech
I believe we can state our opinions without cross the line to hate. And I believe that persecution makes Christians and Christianity stronger. What do we gain if we suffer for doing wrong? I welcome greater persecution for all of us North Americans. Being the top dog has ruined us. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Free Speech *Note Subject Change Subject was "baptism" and is now "Free Speech" Caroline Wong wrote: Canada understands that free speech is meant to serve a democratic society. You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre. You can't do false advertising. You can't claim credentials you don't have. You can't lie while under oath in a court room. And you can't slander, libel, intimidate, threaten or speak hatefully to your fellow human being. We put a high value on people. Americans put high value on principles and rights. We have the same restrictions on speech here in this country, and I agree with them. All this is contained in the commandment, "thou shalt not bear false witness." I very much disagree, however, with Canada's ruling that Romans 1 and Leviticus 20:13 exposes homosexuals to hatred. What about you? Do you agree or disagree with the idea that Christians who would publish references to these verses in newspapers should be prosecuted and found guilty of human rights violations? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
You play loose & wild with your words! Hopefully this does not extend to other areas. What was SCREAMING has now become SHOUTING same words same meaning? SCREAM: To speak or write in a heated hysterical manner. SHOUT: Utter in a loud voice Why did you change them? When describing use emotional term when backpeddaling tone it down. Are you caught up in primal therapy? How did Jesus address large crowds without lifting his voice? I do not use a amplifier I prefer a strong natural voice.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My dear Kevin, I'm sorry if I had accused you of shouting and you weren't. Perhaps you never raised your voice but went around as quiet as a church mouse and those horrid sinners, perverts, fornicators jumped all over you for no reason at all. Perhaps your voice is never heard more than 25 ft away and every man seeking eternal life must come close to you to hear words of truth. If that is so, then I do owe you an apology. I was never an eye witness to your preaching and only know you by what you post here and by what I read of other people's accounts. Would Reuben or David or anyone else at the LDS convention like to testify as to whether shouting took place? Is shouting the norm for Street Preachers or do they just quietly hand out tracts and await an invitation to engage in conversation? If one met up with 10 SPs, how many are shouters and how many are not? Oh wait, those are dumb questions. I just remembered reading that Street Preachers carry bullhorns. So you weren't shouting after all. And I do apologize for accusing you of shouting. In the future, I should just say "saying things that your listeners perceived as mean, belittling, insulting and enraging in a mechanically amplified voice in a public arena." which I'll shorten to "street preaching" for future reference. But you weren't shouting. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Right and of course it is not possible that we are not shouting (you False witness) and that the sinners are angry because they are not ready to hear God's word but came to an event to sin with both hands earnestly? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul ran into trouble for the same reason JD did. He was saying something the people weren't prepared to hear. When you do that, you don't have to shout to get people angry. Paul told the Jews that there is a new covenant, and a new way to salvation which included the Gentiles. JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Does the Book of Acts have an ending or should that style of preaching continue today? If we are to preach the NT "love gospel" why did paul run into so much trouble? Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. (LDS emulate Jews) 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them, 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 16:23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed 19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 19;32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 22:22-24 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
Re: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha
CW says Kevin, you understand that sinners can not do good. Why do you expect those who do not know God or the bible to accept biblical teaching and to stop sinning? "Perhaps they will reform the church."Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I agree with you that we can not change ourselves despite what modernity, philosophy, positive thinking and philosophy say. It is the Holy Spirit that transforms us and there is no limit to what He can do. Kevin, you understand that sinners can not do good. Why do you expect those who do not know God or the bible to accept biblical teaching and to stop sinning? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:36 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Toronto Blessing & Alpha Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. There does seem to be a renaissance of Catholics reading and studying the bible. Some are even moving beyond prescribed prayer. Not many but it's a start. Perhaps they will reform the church. Love, Caroline __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
Do you have special powers? Why do I have to be careful? Is that a threat? Touch not the annointed! LOL So you do not answer because it was your incantation & you have powers? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The Holy Spirit gives some the gift of discerning of spirits. Such people can see angels and demons. They can see how the actions of humans affect the warfare all around us. Be careful not to mock what you do not understand. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1 Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? New Age "CHRISTianity" are you talking about incantations? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes Christ became a curse for us so that we don't have to walk in it - but we are. Something is very wrong because the Church is just as sick as the world. Go to any doctor's waiting room - you won't be able to tell the difference and this ought not to be. Why is the Church wearing the curse? Because we don't understand sin, righteousness, or judgment as Per Hosea 4:6 - while we are busy being nice folk and respecting ppl Satan is eating us for lunch and because pastors don't want to deal with it some are even teaching that this is a blessing. Caroline: I agree with you that on key things like divorce or sickness, there doesn't seem to be much difference between Christians and nonChristians. We do not seem to have the victorious life. I think it's because we're don't understand spiritual power and spiritual battle. The things that are powerful in the spiritual realm (prayer, forgiveness, confession, humility, love, generosity etc) are foolishness in the physical realm. You're right when you say Satan is eating people for lunch. I think when people get angry or become proud and arrogant, they open doors in the spiritual realm for all sorts of demons and spiritual junk. That's why I refrain from unnecesarily making people angry or proud. Unless someone is ready to hear, they won't hear. Forcing them to listen will only make them angry. Jesus said not to throw pearls before swine. Maybe your denomination has taught you that we will be perfected when the final trump sounds and the Church is raptured off to heaven. Well God doesn't need us perfected up there, he has enough perfect ones and no sin there. He needs us to do the work of the ministry here. Kevin may not believe exactly like me but he is busy doing what he believes God has called him to do and some of you are all over him like a rash in spite of what God says about division and strife (in his eyes this is the same as adultery) Grace and Peace, judyt Caroline My denomination (and many others) teach that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye at death. And that now we see poorly but after we'll see clearly. I personally believe God judges us whenever we sin so that we can know what not to do. Then He forgives us and teaches us so that not only will we know what to do, we'll be able to do that. Sin has consequences and can enslave us. His forgiveness frees us to obey Him. On most days, I have no problems allowing Kevin to do what he feels is his call. Today, God asked me if I wanted to be a Street Preacher. Would I like to hold up a sign and yell at Kevin and rebuke him.Oh yes! I cried. But on thinking it over, I think the better answer is no. To do so would be to harden Kevin. David might consider what I wrote, sift through my words for anything from God but Kevin will automatically assume everything I'm waving in his face or yelling at him is from the devil and we will end up yelling at each other to the detriment of both our souls. Who knows what doors in the spiritual realm will be opened and what pollution would be released? Like Debbie, who is wiser that me, I may have to bow out of this arena. Love, Caroline Do you Yahoo!?Make Yahoo! your home page Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Why would you ask. You have posted extensively on it, and now you want to KNOW how I preach? Need more gossip I mean prayer requests for the Brethren?Perhaps my english was not clear, but forget it.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I ask because it is possible you're totally unaware of how you come across to people. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching CW says Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? Why would you ask. You have posted extensively on it, and now you want to KNOW how I preach? Need more gossip I mean prayer requests for the Brethren? Don't you think you Mr Johson should have obeyed Matt 18 and not skipped step 1,2,3 and gone direct to the News media? Do you think christians that have a problem with Street Preaching should have gossip sessions with the brethren but not discuss their concerns with the SP? MT 18 Do you think the brethren should upon hearing that a SP did such and such go right to the brethren to repeat the story? Do you think it is possible that some Lost would have no problem creating lies to perpetuate? Do you think it possible that some lost would devise Devices, and use these to divide and conquer? ( that is their design separate the brethren) Wheres the UNITY? Why is it that Christians will believe a story from a Mormon, a gospel hater, a shop keeper concerned over mamon, even a satanist, and not take it to the offender (SP) when they have the opportunity? But they will take it direct to the Brethren? Do you think it is possible that some lost may actually hate the gospel? some may be actual enemies of the gospel? Christianity Today put my picture in that article. Did they even talk to any of us whoose reputation they dragged thru the mud, for our side of the story? The story must be gospel it is in print you know. Just wondering...Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: His code applies to you... and me. To all sinners. Kevin, do you preach the same way you post here? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." Does your code also apply if you were preaching to a bunch of SODOMites? What would you preach seems like a popular message "God loves you just the way you are?"[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have reason to respect Ruben Israel. My comments are not personal. But --- "different strokes for different folks" is my response to Ruben's defense. What is in evidence, I suppose, is that preaching (including "street preaching") is an acceptable vehicle for spreading the message of hope. Except for the Noah example, what we have is a series of examples of how the message was presented to the children of God --- the Jews. We are repeatedly reminded that among these people of God, few would respond. Perhaps Heb 6:4-6 explains why. No doubt, preaching the message of God's love apart from His disappointment (His wrath) gives one something less than the full picture. I incorporate the message of love in my ministry becau se of the information I find in the letters of the apostles and prophets. The commands that bear repeating in I John are "love God" and "love the brethren." We are reminded that " no one has seen God at any time -- but if we love one another, God abides in us" I J 4:12. In fact, "if God loved us, we should love others" ( I J 4:11). I include the radical notion of love in my ministry because I see it in the words of Paul -- "I become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." The fulfillment of the Law gave us liberty -- but Paul reminds us that we are constrained by -- aah love !! " The gospel of John presents the very reason for the Incarnation -- "Because God loved the world " The Fatherhood of God is an exclusive New Testament consideration. At the centre of Fatherhood is this thing we seek to exclude - love. We dare not forget the very essence of God -- expressed in the statement "God is love." The letters of the apostles are full of considerate dialogue and loving guidance. Paul reminds us that knowledge has its limitations, but if we love, we are known by God. Where harsh straight talk may be the way to the Jewish heart, it certainly was not the norm in other venues. I include love in my ministry because people need to know about it. Salute. JD -Original Message-From: Ruben Israel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:46:34 -0700Subject: Re: [Bulk]
Re: [TruthTalk] Carolyn asks: Did we miss it? Was: Street Preaching
Yikes, Perry, there are dozens of interpretations what Jesus meant with people arguing grammar, semantics and what the phrase "the Son of Man" means in this chapter. Personally, I don't know. All I know is that I don't believe the Liberal view which says Jesus thought the end times were near but he really didn't know and I'm not keen on the Preterists view. I kind of side with people like Izzy who feels He is referring to either His resurrection when his disciples saw Him in His glorified body or He was referring to the Holy Spirit. There are problems with either interpretation. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:53 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Carolyn asks: Did we miss it? Was: Street Preaching >From: "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:07:49 -0500 Jesus also said he'd return before they've gone through all the towns of Israel. So, did we miss it? Carolyn, I would love to hear your answer to the question you posed above. Can you provide a little rationale along with your answer, too, instead of a simple yes or no? This is an area in which I have an interest and on which I like to hear different viewpoints. If anyone else would like to answer this question, please do. Each of us probably has a unique viewpoint on this issue. Yes, you mormon boys are invited, too. Perry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
It's like child abuse. Society probably can't stop all abuse but teaching kids what is acceptable touch and what is not, who to tell and what to do helps. It also helps to tell people this behaviour will not be tolerated in this society. Can we stop all bullying? Probably not. But kids are more likely to tell teachers if they are being bullied, bystanders are more likely to intervene and bullies know this is not acceptable behaviour. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism CW All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. So Canadian Culture has successfully done what no other culture in the history of man has done? Do you have kids? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not.All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at> the office during lunch hour? Izzy>> -Original Message-> And you can't ...speak hatefully to> your fellow human being.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Now how to you reconcile your understanding of His wrath with Him being love? Note the bible does not say God is wrath or God is judge. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong wrote: God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? How about we start with the following description of God's wrath: Revelation 16:1-21 (1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. (3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. (5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. (6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. (7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. (8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. (9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. (12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Do you find yourself in agreement with this description of God's wrath? Do you say, "you are righteous Lord for judging this way" or are you troubled by this description of God? Do you try to find ways to explain it away? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
We are Christians, John was not, he was the friend of the bridegroom a OT saint a Jew in a different kingdom.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jesus said no one born of women is greater than John the Baptist. Does that include Jesus himself? Then Jesus said the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. What did he mean by that? How are all of us here greater than John? Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall discussing "methods." Just a comparison of messages, perhaps. And I do not consider my way better than someone's elses. But a rebuke without love is nothing more than hate speech. I have seen the love in some of Ruben's writings. I just hope that his street ministry has that passion as its base. Drive by preaching is a waste of time. Its when you stay and struggle with those who are being saved via your ministry that the tide is turned. We have an equal responsibility to disciple those who are being saved. I don't hear much about that around here. Jd ===Your comment may be true in some cases, but there are examples in the Bible that do not line up with what you suggest. John, the Baptist rebuked with out love and Jesus called John the greatest man that ever lived. Like Ruben, he was a fore runner. He delivered the word and left the follow up to others. An evangelist often preceeds a pastor. When Paul came to Antioch, he preached for less than four months and was then run out of town. He came back two years later to find a church that had grown to the point that Paul was able to appoint elders from among the local boys to oversee this church that had never had a pastor. You may be right that the wimpy churches of today could not function for two years with out someone to pat them on the head and pick up their toys, but real Christians have done it. All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
The modern versions were based on the early copies especially the Codes Sinaiticus. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Caroline Wong wrote: Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness. These were specific instructions regarding a specific ministry trip. Later, before Jesus even died, he gave them different instructions, teaching them to stay in Jerusalem. Jerusalem did not receive their message, yet they stayed there. (See Luke 22:35-36 for how Jesus made a transition in ministry instructions to his apostles.) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
CW seeing children of various races playing together in school yards and playgrounds Isn't that against the law in America? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Canada is by far a more secular country than America. Less Christians, less bible believers etc etc. Yet it is a safer, kinder, gentler place. Does being a Christian nation automatically makes one more intolerant? South Africa was and is a Christian nation. At one point they had apartheid and much violence and injustice. Then society changed radically and the people in power ushered in national reconciliation and forgiveness. Both were expressions of Christian heritage and thought. My brother spent 5 years doing medical research in Boston and acquired a lot of American friends. They visit occasionally and here are just some samples of things that surprised them. - seeing children of various races playing together in school yards and playgrounds - the amount of mix couples - actual phone books in phone booths - very few ghettos and abandoned houses. Does being a Christian nation automatically means we have a mindset that divides people into racial and economic categories? When I watch the Olympics, I see that the American team is one of the most racially mixed and that always makes me very happy. It is God's will that, as far as it is possible, we live at peace with one another. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada And I thought the USA was a Godless country.Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo!Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
Kevin, can you communicate with a person you disagree with without belittling them? Your thoughts would have been more readily received. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible CW says Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like the ending to Mark Again you are Brewing New Age MOONSHINE! ManuscriptS? How many? Must be a lot to throw out all those verses, 9-20! The Evidence of the Greek: consisting of some eighteen (18) uncials and some six hundred (600) cursive MSS. (618) which contain the Gospel of Mark) there is not one which leaves out these twelve verses. So out of the 620 extant manuscripts that contain the chapter we have 618 that contain 9-20 and 2 that do not Aleph & B Considering the character of aleph & B, this would be akin to 618 witnesses testifying in court in total agreement against a defendant. But wait two more witnesses show. They both disagree with the 618 but also with each other! Witnesses that can not agree on the facts or each other, this is the nature of these hopelessly corrupt manuscripts. The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible has this to say about Codex Vaticanus (B) on page 624 under article Versions. Quote: " It should be noted, however, that there is no prominent Biblical MS. in which there occur such gross cases of misspelling, faulty grammar, and omission, as in B." (Ref:H2) "Aleph B D are three of the most scandalously corrupt copies extant: exhibit the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with: have become, by whatever process (for their history is wholly unknown), the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders, and intentional perversions of Truth which are discoverable in any known copies of the Word of God." Burgon, Revision Revised, p 16 Dean John William Burgon "The Revision Revised", 1881, p. 11; "Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the Critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substitued, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree." These two ms are the corrupt foundation that the new bibles are built on. Evidence from Church fathers: http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/patristic_chart.htm Cited by many of the early church fathers such as Justin (165 AD), Tertullian (220 AD), Hippolytus (235 AD), Ambrose (397 AD) and Augustine (430 AD). Irenaeus (155 AD) Evidence of the versions: The SYRIAC. The oldest is the Syriac in its various forms: the " Peshitto " (cent. 2), and the "Curetonian Syriac"(cent. 3). Both are older than any Greek 315. in existence, and both contain these twelve verses. As also does the "Philoxenian"(cent. 5) and the "Jerusalem" (cent. 5) contain these twelve verses The LATIN Versions: JEROME (A. D. 382), who had access to Greek MSS. older than any now extant, includes these twelve verses; but this Version (known as the Vulgate) was only a revision of the Vetus ITALA, which is believed to belong to cent. 2, and also contains these verses. The GOTHIC Version (A. D. 350) contains them. The EGYPTIAN Versions: the Memphitic (or Lower Egyptian, otherwise known as "COPTIC"), belonging to cent. 4 or 5, contains them; as does the "THE BMC "(Or Upper Egyptian, otherwise known as the "SAHIDIC"), belonging to cent. 3 contains them. The ARMENIAN (cent. 5), the ETHIOPIC (cent. 4-7), and the GEOROIAN (cent. 6) also contains them and bear witness to the genuineness of these verses. The evidence of the blank space: "To say that the Vatican Codex (B)... ends abruptly at the 8th verse of the 16th chapter [of Mark's Gospel], and that the customary subscription (kata Markon) follows, is true - but it is far from being the whole truth. It requires to be stated in addition that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to begin ever
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
CW That's what must be struggled through. It is only a struggle when you are always forcing your feelings on the plain teaching of the text. Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No, Ruben, God is always love. He is ontologically love meaning that His being is love. Why is He angry with sinners 24/7? What is His wrath like? Or His hate? That's what must be struggled through. The bible is a story that has a beginning, a middle (complete with the climax of the crucifixion) and an ending. In a novel, even if a character stays the same, the situation in the beginning is very different from the ending. The same character may end up reacting differently even if he is unchanged during the whole story. Hebrews says that God spoke to us in various ways through his prophets but in the last days, he has spoken to us through His Son. Now that we know the ending, the beginning looks different to us. We know God is Trinity in the garden of Eden. We know He has been seeking the sons of Adam since then. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Ruben Israel To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching God is love. Now in light of His being love, tell me what His wrath and His hate is like? Hint: it's not the same as human hate and anger and it's definitely not the same as Satan's hate and anger. So He was not love then? I guess that is your way of saying, yes? Why not just take read for what it says? God is angry (as the verse clearly shows) everyday of every week of every year or as you asked 24/7? We do have consistency here with Old and New, how can someone read the book of Revelation and conclude God destroys nations, people the earth? Let me try this again, Can you please read me Psalm 7:11 and tell me what that verse is saying? Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Excommunication was a very powerful corrective tool. Then it was abused. Now it is ineffective as the person can go to another community. In Paul's day, there was only one church. Or the person can find other like-minded individuals and start his own church. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching You never commented on whether the situation was handled as a christian ought.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is spiritual protection in leading a righteous life and there is protection in belonging to a godly community. When Paul advised the Corinthians to expel the immoral brother, it was so that he can experience the full consequences of his sin. In his follow up letter, 2 Cor, he told them to take him back in because he repented. We can't force people to love God or to obey Him. We can only let people choose. Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching I don't believe Jesus was at this time using Himself as the example Caroline; remember He was born in Israel under the Law and his culture at the time tax collectors and pagans were ostracised and made outcasts which is similar to what Paul counselled the Corinthian Church to do with the man who refused to repent of his moral issues and accept correction. Paul advised turning him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that he would later repent and his soul would be saved We've not learned this lesson and this is why we are not receiving a whole lot from God. Under the Old Covenant everyone was expected to follow the Law which is our friend rather than an enemy; God's Commandments arn't grievious... and yes forgiveness is paramount if we want to walk with God. jt On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:59:14 -0500 "Caroline Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Step 4. and if your brother refuses to listen to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Step 5. and how did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors? He did not expect them to be able to follow the law and be righteous. He loved them and ate with them. And they enjoyed his presence. Then Peter asked Jesus, how many times am I suppose to forgive my brother? Seventy times seven according to some manuscripts. Then Jesus told a parable that tells us how much we've been forgiven and warns us against unforgiveness. Interesting sidebar: the moral of the story was not - you've been forgiven much so you better be good! but you've been forgiven much so you ought to forgive those who sinned against you. From: Kevin Deegan IF Johnson is a Christian and that is a big if Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus outlines three steps to take in talking to your brother, in dealing with unrepentant sin. STEP 1 GO TO YOUR BROTHER: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. STEP 2 BRING OTHER BRO's WITH YOU: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. STEP 3 TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. He ignored all three of these. What a example of a Man of God! Did any of these guys come to us as commanded by the scriptures? NO Instead of following the scriptures, and bringing it before the Church, Mr Johnson went right to the news Media and used our reputations as his springboard into a bigger more profitable ministry. A friend of mine interviewed on radio an associate of Mr Johnson. When asked if he tried to do MT 18, said he came down to the temple but could not find us. ROTFL what a liar. Maybe we ar
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
You should be proud of being the only society to ever fix schoolyard Bullying. Were you traumatized in the schoolyard as a kid? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thank you for correcting me. But bullying is hate. Thinking this is how the kingdom is advanced is deception.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:31 AMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Caroline, thank you for denigrating my capabilities of understanding. Is > it> possible that you might not understand something yourself? Have I promoted> SP's making "racist or sexist remarks" or "bullying"? You are off the> subject and don't even know it. MY point is that "hate speech" is not > what> SP's do by warning sinners that what they are doing is wrong. Hate speech> is what human beings do every day by slandering and gossiping, and no law > in> Canada will stop that. The anti-hate laws are created by sinful men to> censor free speech which is not politically correct. It is of satan. Izzy>> -Original Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism>> This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist > or> sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find> ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high> turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are> believers or not.>> All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids> lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate > suicide.> Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real> problem and one that is not tolerated.>> Love,>> Caroline> - Original Message - > From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> To: > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PM> Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any>> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations >> at>> the office during lunch hour? Izzy -Original Message->> And you can't ...speak hatefully to>> your fellow human being.>> -->> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may>> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)>> http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a>> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know> how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)> http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
John is not a Christian. Did he go to hell after Herod beheaded him? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:08 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching We are Christians, John was not, he was the friend of the bridegroom a OT saint a Jew in a different kingdom.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jesus said no one born of women is greater than John the Baptist. Does that include Jesus himself? Then Jesus said the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. What did he mean by that? How are all of us here greater than John? Love, Caroline - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't recall discussing "methods." Just a comparison of messages, perhaps. And I do not consider my way better than someone's elses. But a rebuke without love is nothing more than hate speech. I have seen the love in some of Ruben's writings. I just hope that his street ministry has that passion as its base. Drive by preaching is a waste of time. Its when you stay and struggle with those who are being saved via your ministry that the tide is turned. We have an equal responsibility to disciple those who are being saved. I don't hear much about that around here. Jd ===Your comment may be true in some cases, but there are examples in the Bible that do not line up with what you suggest. John, the Baptist rebuked with out love and Jesus called John the greatest man that ever lived. Like Ruben, he was a fore runner. He delivered the word and left the follow up to others. An evangelist often preceeds a pastor. When Paul came to Antioch, he preached for less than four months and was then run out of town. He came back two years later to find a church that had grown to the point that Paul was able to appoint elders from among the local boys to oversee this church that had never had a pastor. You may be right that the wimpy churches of today could not function for two years with out someone to pat them on the head and pick up their toys, but real Christians have done it. All they needed was the truth and the Holy Spirit. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
Actually no. Were you a bully? Wait, let me use my gift of discernment:-) ;-) - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism You should be proud of being the only society to ever fix schoolyard Bullying. Were you traumatized in the schoolyard as a kid? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thank you for correcting me. But bullying is hate. Thinking this is how the kingdom is advanced is deception.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:31 AMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Caroline, thank you for denigrating my capabilities of understanding. Is > it> possible that you might not understand something yourself? Have I promoted> SP's making "racist or sexist remarks" or "bullying"? You are off the> subject and don't even know it. MY point is that "hate speech" is not > what> SP's do by warning sinners that what they are doing is wrong. Hate speech> is what human beings do every day by slandering and gossiping, and no law > in> Canada will stop that. The anti-hate laws are created by sinful men to> censor free speech which is not politically correct. It is of satan. Izzy>> -Original Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:04 AM> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism>> This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist > or> sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find> ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high> turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are> believers or not.>> All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids> lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate > suicide.> Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real> problem and one that is not tolerated.>> Love,>> Caroline> - Original Message - > From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> To: > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PM> Subject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any>> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations >> at>> the office during lunch hour? Izzy -Original Message->> And you can't ...speak hatefully to>> your fellow human being.>> -->> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may>> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)>> http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a>> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know> how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)> http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada
CW other ways to bring the gospel to the people. Like your puppet ministry at church? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The PC crowd has no tolerance for hate literature. No ACLU in Canada, remember. Either the Evangelist will choose fines and jail (and jail is frequent in some countries like China) or he will find other ways to bring the gospel to the people. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TRUTH TALK Most Dangerous man in Canada $17,000 fine for handing out literature? The PC crowd is very INTOLERANT even of words! But to hear them talk that is a different story, they love to tell you how open they are!Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And I thought the USA was a Godless country.Kevin Deegan wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Discover Yahoo!Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! Subject: CBC News on Bill Whatcott From: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:32:46 -0600 To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Bill Whatcott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Whatcott ordered to stop anti-gay flyers Last Updated May 13 2005 09:02 AM CDTCBC News REGINA A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal has ruled a former Regina man incited hatred against gays and lesbians and has ordered him to pay more than $17,000. Bill WhatcottCBC file photoIn 2002, four people filed complaints against Bill Whatcott and a group called the Christian Truth Activists. They objected to pamphlets distributed in Regina and Saskatoon that referred to homosexual men as "sodomites" and called same-sex relationships "filthy". One of the flyers said: "Sodomites are 430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" Brendan Wallace, one of the complainants, testified in 2002 he was angry and fearful as a result of receiving the material at his home. READ THE DECISION Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission Tribunal: Wallace et al vs. Whatcott(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external sites. Link will open in new window) "Initially he thought it was a personal attack on his partner and himself," the tribunal decision said. "He related some of his life experiences as a gay man and wondered how others would react, including members of his own family." Whatcott has been ordered to pay $17,500 to Wallace and the three other complainants for hurt feelings and loss of dignity and self-respect. And the tribunal has ruled that Whatcott and his group can no longer distribute material that promotes hatred against people because of their sexual orientation. On Thursday, Wallace said he was pleased the tribunal agreed spreading this kind of material is wrong, but he doubts Whatcott's group will stop. "Only two weeks ago, we received some similar hate mail distributed to our house from the same man and the same group," he said. Whatcott could not be reached for comment. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Try that one in canada! next Sunday walk up to the Pulpit and continue to engage the preacher, in conversation! Your funny!Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is a video on one of the links Kevin sent regarding SPs outside the LDS convention. One video showed the SP drowning out 6 singing missionaries and ignoring a man who was trying to engage him in conversation. Because the community is rather small, I'm sure you'll have no problem recognizing that man :-)Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:25 AMSubject: !Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching> Caroline Wong wrote:>> It's not the preaching outside that I object to.>> Oh, good, I am glad to hear that.>> Caroline Wong wrote:>> It's the yelling at people and insulting them that>> I object to. This is not dialogue or apologetics;>> it's bullying. I can't imagine Jesus screaming "whore">> and "harlot" at Samaritan women.>> What street preacher did you witness using such methods? I would like to> know names, places, dates, and contact information like email addresses or> websites, etc. I've preached with scores of street preachers across this> nation and I don't think I have ever witnessed such things.>> Jesus offended many with his preaching and teaching. The proof of this is> in how they reacted toward him and ultimately by the fact of his> crucifixion. If you are walking as Jesus walked, people will be looking > for> ways to malign you, misrepresent you, hurt you, and kill you, and if they> are not, either you have not started ministry yet, or something is wrong> with your ministry. None of us are above our Master.>> Caroline Wong wrote:>> Something is very wrong here and as a Christian, I protest.>> I do not agree with Mormon beliefs but I have enormous>> respect for all those who endured the persecution with grace>> and dignity.>> You have respect for the Mormon persecution? Is this what you are saying?>> Joseph Smith as Mayor of the largest city in Illinois and Military General> of a State Militia ordered the destruction of printing presses that> criticized his polygamy. In response to this gross abuse of political > power> and sundry other things, he was arrested and a mob broke into the jail and> killed him after he had killed some of the angry mob with a gun that had> been smuggled in. Are you going on record as saying that you are> sympathetic to his suffering persecution in this event?>> Caroline Wong wrote:>> As a Christian, I would like to apologize to all the>> Mormons here who were screamed at and insulted.>> Before you jump on the bandwagon here, you need to go down to Salt Lake > City> and see what is going on for yourself. I believe that your apology is > based> upon your being too eager to believe gossip.>> Caroline Wong wrote:>> Not all Christians are like that and not all Street Preachers>> are like that. I hope you'll give us another chance to explain>> our beliefs.>> Sweet Caroline. You are falling for the Mormon deception here. Wake up.> The Mormons are not ignorant of your beliefs. They have judged your > beliefs> as false and hope for the opportunity for you to explain your beliefs only> so they can show you how they have a belief system that goes beyond yours> and has better answers. The Scriptures teach us to reprove, rebuke and> exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. You had better get about the> business of doing that. Those who love the truth will hear you, and those> who hate the truth will deride you.>> Peace be with you.> David Miller.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
Oh so you do shout. Got it. Thanks - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching You play loose & wild with your words! Hopefully this does not extend to other areas. What was SCREAMING has now become SHOUTING same words same meaning? SCREAM: To speak or write in a heated hysterical manner. SHOUT: Utter in a loud voice Why did you change them? When describing use emotional term when backpeddaling tone it down. Are you caught up in primal therapy? How did Jesus address large crowds without lifting his voice? I do not use a amplifier I prefer a strong natural voice.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My dear Kevin, I'm sorry if I had accused you of shouting and you weren't. Perhaps you never raised your voice but went around as quiet as a church mouse and those horrid sinners, perverts, fornicators jumped all over you for no reason at all. Perhaps your voice is never heard more than 25 ft away and every man seeking eternal life must come close to you to hear words of truth. If that is so, then I do owe you an apology. I was never an eye witness to your preaching and only know you by what you post here and by what I read of other people's accounts. Would Reuben or David or anyone else at the LDS convention like to testify as to whether shouting took place? Is shouting the norm for Street Preachers or do they just quietly hand out tracts and await an invitation to engage in conversation? If one met up with 10 SPs, how many are shouters and how many are not? Oh wait, those are dumb questions. I just remembered reading that Street Preachers carry bullhorns. So you weren't shouting after all. And I do apologize for accusing you of shouting. In the future, I should just say "saying things that your listeners perceived as mean, belittling, insulting and enraging in a mechanically amplified voice in a public arena." which I'll shorten to "street preaching" for future reference. But you weren't shouting. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Right and of course it is not possible that we are not shouting (you False witness) and that the sinners are angry because they are not ready to hear God's word but came to an event to sin with both hands earnestly? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul ran into trouble for the same reason JD did. He was saying something the people weren't prepared to hear. When you do that, you don't have to shout to get people angry. Paul told the Jews that there is a new covenant, and a new way to salvation which included the Gentiles. JD merely believes God is love and that He loves sinners while you believe He is angry with sinners 24/7 - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching Does the Book of Acts have an ending or should that style of preaching continue today? If we are to preach the NT "love gospel" why did paul run into so much trouble? Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. (LDS emulate Jews) 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them, 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 16:23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed 19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 19;32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused 20:23 Save that
Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism
But it is the Teachers doing some of the ABUSE!Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's like child abuse. Society probably can't stop all abuse but teaching kids what is acceptable touch and what is not, who to tell and what to do helps. It also helps to tell people this behaviour will not be tolerated in this society. Can we stop all bullying? Probably not. But kids are more likely to tell teachers if they are being bullied, bystanders are more likely to intervene and bullies know this is not acceptable behaviour. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism CW All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. So Canadian Culture has successfully done what no other culture in the history of man has done? Do you have kids? Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This may be beyond your understanding but people can be fired for racist or sexist remarks at the office. People watch their mouths. Some bosses find ways to be abusive without being racist or sexist but they have a high turnover in staff. And I'm sure the Lord judges them whether they are believers or not.All the schools are proactive in stopping bullying because they know kids lives can be ruined to the point where grade schoolers contemplate suicide. Your family solved the problem by homeschooling. But bullying is a real problem and one that is not tolerated.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism> Boy, Canada would have a field day in any gradeschool classroom. Or any> family with multiple children. Do they have tapes of the conversations at> the office during lunch hour? Izzy>> -Original Message-> And you can't ...speak hatefully to> your fellow human being.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching
And that is the root of the problem.Only VATICANus can match its gloriously awful corruption.Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The modern versions were based on the early copies especially the Codes Sinaiticus.Love,Caroline- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 1:46 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Street Preaching> Caroline Wong wrote:>> Jesus gave very specific instructions to how his apostles>> were to preach to the people. They left a town if the town>> will not accept the message. No need to continue to witness.>> These were specific instructions regarding a specific ministry trip. > Later,> before Jesus even died, he gave them different instructions, teaching them> to stay in Jerusalem. Jerusalem did not receive their message, yet they> stayed there. (See Luke 22:35-36 for how Jesus made a transition in> ministry instructions to his apostles.)>> Peace be with you.> David Miller.>>> --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org>> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible
Yes I could. But with some of the stuff you pass as fact, why should I? New Age doctrine trying to pass as christianity does not deserve respect. I am more interested that your infection does not spread. Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin, can you communicate with a person you disagree with without belittling them? Your thoughts would have been more readily received. - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible CW says Biblical scholars were quite surprised when they found early manuscripts which did not contain lots of stuff like the ending to Mark Again you are Brewing New Age MOONSHINE! ManuscriptS? How many? Must be a lot to throw out all those verses, 9-20! The Evidence of the Greek: consisting of some eighteen (18) uncials and some six hundred (600) cursive MSS. (618) which contain the Gospel of Mark) there is not one which leaves out these twelve verses. So out of the 620 extant manuscripts that contain the chapter we have 618 that contain 9-20 and 2 that do not Aleph & B Considering the character of aleph & B, this would be akin to 618 witnesses testifying in court in total agreement against a defendant. But wait two more witnesses show. They both disagree with the 618 but also with each other! Witnesses that can not agree on the facts or each other, this is the nature of these hopelessly corrupt manuscripts. The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible has this to say about Codex Vaticanus (B) on page 624 under article Versions. Quote: " It should be noted, however, that there is no prominent Biblical MS. in which there occur such gross cases of misspelling, faulty grammar, and omission, as in B." (Ref:H2) "Aleph B D are three of the most scandalously corrupt copies extant: exhibit the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with: have become, by whatever process (for their history is wholly unknown), the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders, and intentional perversions of Truth which are discoverable in any known copies of the Word of God." Burgon, Revision Revised, p 16 Dean John William Burgon "The Revision Revised", 1881, p. 11; "Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the Critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substitued, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree." These two ms are the corrupt foundation that the new bibles are built on. Evidence from Church fathers: http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/patristic_chart.htm Cited by many of the early church fathers such as Justin (165 AD), Tertullian (220 AD), Hippolytus (235 AD), Ambrose (397 AD) and Augustine (430 AD). Irenaeus (155 AD) Evidence of the versions: The SYRIAC. The oldest is the Syriac in its various forms: the " Peshitto " (cent. 2), and the "Curetonian Syriac"(cent. 3). Both are older than any Greek 315. in existence, and both contain these twelve verses. As also does the "Philoxenian"(cent. 5) and the "Jerusalem" (cent. 5) contain these twelve verses The LATIN Versions: JEROME (A. D. 382), who had access to Greek MSS. older than any now extant, includes these twelve verses; but this Version (known as the Vulgate) was only a revision of the Vetus ITALA, which is believed to belong to cent. 2, and also contains these verses. The GOTHIC Version (A. D. 350) contains them. The EGYPTIAN Versions: the Memphitic (or Lower Egyptian, otherwise known as "COPTIC"), belonging to cent. 4 or 5, contains them; as does the "THE BMC "(Or Upper Egyptian, otherwise known as the "SAHIDIC"), belonging to cent. 3 contains them. The ARMENIAN (cent. 5), the ETHIOPIC (cent. 4-7), and the GEOROIAN (cent. 6) also contains them and bear witness to the genuineness of these verses. The evidence of the blank space: "To say that the Vatican Codex (B)... ends abruptly at the 8th verse of the 16th chapter [of Mark's Gospel], and that the customary subscription (kata Markon) follows, is true - but it is far from being the whole truth. It requires to be stated in addition that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to be