date:20050724

Sorry about that JD, I must have thought for some
reason DM or you were talking to me.
and incidentally you are misrepresenting me right here.
I have never claimed that Jesus was not
God in the flesh. What I deny is that He was
wholly God because before He took the body upon
himself He divested Himself of divine attributes.
Please don't put words in my mouth. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy, why are you answering posted comments to
David?I already know and have rejected what you believe about Christ not being God
Incarnate.I had somehow missed DM's point.

Jd-Original
Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:51:28 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14

Judyt: My point is that he was not
fully God in the flesh and neither was he fully man
because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from
birth
Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he
diedfor us
He is what He is and we need to be open to receive that revelation
from
the Lord rather than die for some creed that misrepresents Him for fear
of heresy.
The important thing is that we be conformed to His image before he
returns for us.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:34:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original Message-From:
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14
-0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Judy wrote:
He was on earth as the Son of God. ...
God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent
etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none
of these, in fact He plainly said "The Father is greater
than I".

JD wrote:
Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that
Jesus Christ was God and man.

Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God?
Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes
him man?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Now you are putting words in both my mouth and that of
DavidM. I have never argued that we are saved by
keeping commandments and neither has DM because the Law
was not given for this reason to begin with.
From what you have written it is obvious that you are
not walking in His victory either because you are still in
bondage to what he has defeated. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:01:49 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy, the victory we walk in is Christ's victory over sin. All spiritual blessings are IN
HIM. HE HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD.there
is nothing else to do. Your teaching , logically, has no
middle ground. Do you know this. Ditto for David.
As soon as you argue that we must obey the commandments to
be saved,you must include ALL the commandments in order to be
saved and you must all the commandments RIGHT NOW in order to be saved
-- because Christ sacrifice only includes "past sins." Your
teaching is impossible. JD From: Judith H Taylor
jandgtaylor1@juno.com

judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the victory for us but it
does take effort to walk in that victory
This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and
trembling" and "continuing in hope"
or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil
because of our faith in His victory.
This takes effort. Studying to show oneself approved and rightly dividing
the Word of Truth takes effort.
He can not present us holy and blameles without our cooperation. It does not work by
magic. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

The reason we are not comdemned has
nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we
escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24).
Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who
cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col
1:22 and the word "blameless").

JD-Original
Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30
-0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Judy wrote:
Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human
nature as per Galatians 5:19

Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested
in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not
describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point
is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory
over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had
victory over these temptations.

Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we
have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why
aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder,
drunkenness, and partying on weekends? The reason is because we reckon our
flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. The
existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us
from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. Rather, the
existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'




Hmmm, interesting! The personage quoted scripture 
but that is not unusual, the devil comes as an angel of light and uses truth 
to
deceive ppl and lead them into even worse error. 
However, I do think it hypocritical for the ones following creeds and doctrines 
that
are of men to upbraid you for doing the same. I'd 
like to hear you playing that horn Blaine 

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:45:03 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Blainerb: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the 
  light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who 
  addressed me said that all their creeds were an 
  abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; 
  that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from 
  me, they teach for doctrine the 
  commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the 
  power thereof." Joseph Smith
  
  
  In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:00:36 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the 
lack of authority.Judy Taylor wrote: 

  
  From my perspective the Mormon boys are being 
  shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee
  that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was 
  with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's 
  
  even worse today than it was then -he 
  was right on that point -

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14




Then you are one with the "accuser of the brethren" and 
I don't think he needs any help

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:15:50 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  about ppl like 
  you
  
  On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:29:33 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
You are speaking for yourself. 
iz



whileone 
loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, 
as we see, for mankind this is impossible

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

If you want to identify with world, flesh, and devil
JD- OK but please don't include me. Also I am
redefining nothing
Nor am I qualifying anything; I allow
the Word of God to speak for itself. You may
use complicated and fuzzy theological
jargon all you like but this will not change the
reality which is that you need to reconcile these scriptures because
God is
not confused nor areHis
Wordscontradictory. If not you will be spreading the
confusion. For a start the fullness of
the Godhead would not call the Father "greater" than
henow would
he? There is no greater thanthe fullness
of the Godhead bodily.. You need to reconcile John 14:28 - (these are the
words of Jesus) with Col 1:19 because all are truth
and all areinspired by the same Spirit.

Note: I'm curious - how does one verse by itself alone
become a monologue? jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:51:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have talked plenty about what we are saved from -
OURSELVES.
God is already at work in us to will and to doHis good
pleasure (Phil 2:13). Christ has ALREADY reconciled us to
Himself (Col 1:19ff).
The fact that this Colossian passage does
not fit into your theology, written as it is, is no fault of mine.
I refuse to change the basic wording of any passage to get it to fit into a theological
construct. You use the phrase "in balance and context" to
forecast the fact that you are going to redefine a given (problematic) passage
by quoting other scripture rather than deal with those posted concerns that
present the weakness of your
position.. i.e. you completely ignore what I have written
below. What we have here, is one monologue
verses another monolgue.

JD
From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com

Judyt: Much as I hate to disagree
with you and Terry I've got to on this one because it promotes the "incarnational" thing. Colossians 1:22 is the reality of the "risen Christ" John.
It is not how he walked amongst Israel and reading scripture in balance and
context would demonstrate this. Why would the "fullness of the Godhead
bodily" say "My Father is greater than I?" Also IMO you carry this "representative" thing too far on the other
end. We had no choice but to be born into the first Adam. We do
have a choice as to whether or not we embrace the second and if we do not
receive the Word of Godembrace reality by agreeing withHis
assessment and obey Him - we will continue on in our wretchedness and His
Kingdom will be alien to and unavailable to us because God's wrath continues
to abide on us (John 3:36) We don't talk about what we have been saved
from. Why not?

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:27:39 -0500 Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.net writes:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He
is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is
the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God,
He is the fullness of the very nature
of God, the visible presentation of the
invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed)
representative of man !!
As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col
1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who
"cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL
!!

JD===You
have said well.Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14




From your perspective only you have that; it seems. I 
guess Izzy and I will find out who is accepted and who is
rejected when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats 
won't we? If you think we are missing it, pray for us.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:14:42 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  you project 
  this injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is 
  going to hell--apparently neither of you 
  (God-manipulators)are searchg for the 
  truth
  
  On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:14:43 -0500 Terry Clifton 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
||
 When you drink enough to get drunk, God is 
angry with you.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14




You arn't God either and the new word is getting 
boring.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:17:09 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  you 
  aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator
  
  On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  

Youve obviously 
never been married to a drunk. iz





From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13 
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 
16:13,14


'you 
shall die', anyway--beer drinking 
is irrelevant, not a 
life or death issue except to the 
God-manipulators



On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  ||
  
  I stay away from that and am 
  thankful that 
  
  husband and children are not 
  involved with it. jt
  
  ||

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14


Anthropos is the Greek word. Lexicon definition includes this nuance: [with regard to the article, generically] all human individuals [without regard to male and female] -- Thayer. (Arnt and Gengrich, Liddle and Scott add to this presentation). The phrases "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are not specific references to God the FAther and Mary the Mother .In a nutshell, these phrases present to us a Christ who belongs to, is the full embodiment of, all that isGod /all thatis man. He belongs to God. He belongs to man(kind).He represents God. He representsman.

JD

-Original Message-From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:43:57 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14


DAVEH: Why did you change man to mankind, John? Is the root word the same? I'm out of town, and don't have my reference books, nor do I have time to look into it at the moment. But it sure seems to me that there is a big difference between man and mankind. If they were originally meant to be the same, I would have thought the Bible translators would have been anxious to use the same term, yet they chose a different one.  So..what am I missing here? Is your assumption based on something other than traditional Protestant thought?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !!

JD-Original Message-From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:41:11 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14


DAVEH: And..the Son of man as well. Do other TTers not find that immensely important?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man.-- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain six email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

[TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus




From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote:... I agree and this is why all three areas must 
becleansed of filthiness, sanctification extends tothe soul and spirit 
as well as the physical body.

But the point is that the spirit and soul can be swept clean, but the 
physical body must be reckoned dead and is not swept clean until the 
resurrection. Do you see this?

jt: Yes I do but what do you mean by "swept clean"? Are 
you speaking of the what Jesus said
about the house that the strongman had to 
leave?

Judy wrote:I see flesh as mankind or a unit - 
natural maniethe unit that Gary and JD talk about because 
they
are for all intents and purposes deceived and 
livinga dead spiritual reality - Eph 2:3b 
tells
us that beforeChristppl have the spirit of 
the devil working in them and are by nature the children 

of wrath; after we are born again we become a 
partaker of the"divine 
nature" (2 Peter 1:4). 
So one nature or the other 
is working in us and motivating us.

Well, then, we need to get on the same track with our words. This is 
not how I see the word flesh. I have an understanding that comes from 
the following passage:

Romans 7:22-25(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward 
man: 
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my 
mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my 
members.(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the 
body of this death?(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So 
then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law 
of sin.

Here he contrasts flesh with the inward man and with the mind. He 
calls it "the body of this death." I think he means the physical body, 
which is what the word flesh means. It seems to me that you need to 
adjust your perspective 
of flesh to be more from a Biblical perspective, but you will have to 
advise me 
on the feasibility of doing that.

jt: The way I understand it the law of sin has been in 
the members of humanity
since the other kingdom entered the first Adam in the 
garden when he caved
and handed over the dominion he had been given; we are 
born into it and we
are trained in it. This world system is not God 
honoring. But when we become
a partaker of the "divine nature" in Christ and learn 
from Him; we are enabled
to override all of that old mess and live in Covenant 
blessings.

Judy wrote:The reason I don't believe Jesus to be 
exactly thesame as us goes back to the 
garden. It is my belief that when Adam chose to eat 
from the other tree(and these 
trees represent two kinds of wisdom) that another 
kingdom entered him bringing
forth a differentkind of fruit. I believe 
all sin to be rooted in fear. Fear that our needs 
will not be taken care of; controland all sorts 
of other phobias are rooted in fear; 
mankind as a whole is full of fear and it was envy 
rooted in fear that crucified Jesus. 
However, I see none of this 
residing in Him and at the end of his ministry right before
he was arrested he said "the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me" 
which is telling - why wasn't the law of sin working in 
his members? (Romans 7:22)

Well, now we are back to Calvinism and the RCC and Augustine traditional 
viewpoint of original sin. For someone who criticizes all of these 
often, you sure do hold tenaciously to their view of the Adamic fall.

jt: I don't hold tenaciously to anything of theirs 
David. I have to see what I believe
in God's Word for myself. I don't read or study 
these men but I recognize some
error they are responsible for by comparing different 
teachings with God's Word.
Do you believe that Jesus received the "divine nature" 
that we partake of at or
following the resurrection because if he was exactly 
the same as the first Adam
then he would have had the law of sin working in his 
members also?

Are you familiar with Charles Finney? He was a Presbyterian like you, 
but not very keen on Calvinism. 

jt: I don't call myself Presbyterian, the reason we go 
to this particular Church is
because there is more of the Word and more love there 
than other places.

In his day, Calvinism had very much darkened much of Christianity, and his 

theology helped cure much that went wrong. He teaches a distinction 
between 
moral depravity and physical depravity. My system of understanding 
differs quite 
a bit from Finney, but perhaps some of his lectures on moral depravity and 
physical 
depravity might help you in regards to your Calvinistic bent on this 
subject. If are 
familiar with him, let me know, if not, consider looking up his material on 
the Internet. 
I'm sure much of it is published there because he has no copyright issues 
having lived some time ago.

jt: I know who he is and am familiar with his ministry. 
I have quite a few of his
books but don't read him. I know God honored his 
ministry but don't want to go
from the frying pan into the fire ... I believe 
both moral and physical

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14




JD, the word Christ means "anointed" and this is what I 
have been saying - that He represents God and He
represents man - But isn't all of either in human 
form. jt

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:54:57 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Anthropos is the Greek 
  word. Lexicon definition includes 
  this nuance: [with regard to the article, generically] all human 
  individuals [without regard to male and female] -- 
  Thayer. (Arnt and Gengrich, Liddle and Scott add to this presentation). The 
  phrases "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are not specific references to God 
  the FAther and Mary the Mother .In a nutshell, these phrases 
  present to us a Christ who belongs to, is the full embodiment of, all 
  that isGod /all thatis man. He belongs to 
  God. He belongs to man(kind).He represents God. 
  He representsman.
  
  JD
  
  -Original Message-From: Dave 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 
  Jul 2005 20:43:57 -0700Subject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
  

  DAVEH: Why did you change man 
  to mankind, John? Is the root word the same? I'm out of 
  town, and don't have my reference books, nor do I have time to look into it at 
  the moment. But it sure seems to me that there is a big difference 
  between man and mankind. If they were originally meant to 
  be the same, I would have thought the Bible translators would have been 
  anxious to use the same term, yet they chose a different one. 
   So..what am I missing here? Is your 
  assumption based on something other than traditional Protestant 
  thought?[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  


In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He 
is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the 
Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is 
the fullness of the very nature of 
God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. 
As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, 
in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word 
translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called 
into account" - Thayer).PTL !!

JD-Original 
Message-From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:41:11 
-0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14


DAVEH: And..the Son of man as 
well. Do other TTers not find that immensely 
important?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ 
  was God and 
man.-- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain six email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'


Why would you think that the King Jamesquote beloware the words of God? I read the B of M many moons ago. As I remember, I read a passage in that book that was taken from chapters 1-13 of Isaiah of the KJV, italicized words included. Not a positive for this young investigator. 


JD-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:43:38 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'




Blainerb: Why do you not believe God can use his own words from thescriptures to express his displeasure over a current situation? Jesus often quoted the scriptures to the Jews to makea point. In the book of Matthew, the writer (Matthew) often does much the same thing. A departure from this would have indicated the story was false. 


In a message dated 7/23/2005 7:22:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

JSmith quoting the real Bible in his collections of the commandments of JSmith. 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:45 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'





Blainerb: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." Joseph Smith<
/DIV>

Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'

2005-07-24 Thread Terry Clifton





Check out that phrase, Dave. "it shall NOT be so among you." Jesus
gave them authority over demons and He gave them the authority to
preach the Good News. He did not give them the authority to be
dictators or popes or presidents. They were guides, not rulers.
Hope this helps you understand.
Terry

Dave wrote:

  
  
DAVEH: So what do you think the purpose was of Jesus choosing and
ordaining the apostles, Terry? Do you believe Jesus gave them any
authority?
  
Terry Clifton wrote:
  


You might want to consider His words recorded in Matthew 20:26-28, Dave.

"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those
that are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so
among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be
your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be
your slave...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to
serve."

Peter got the message. Look at his advice in 1 Peter, 5:2-3

"Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers
not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly
nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to
the flock."
Terry


Dave wrote:

  
  
DAVEH: His ordination of the apostles would suggest otherwise, Judy.
For what reason did he call and ordain the apostles if they were not to
  stand in for Him? Did he not give them authority and then
command them to preach and baptize in his name?
  
Judith H Taylor wrote:
  



Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a
hierarchal
flesh kingdom to stand in for Him
His kingdom is organic rather than organizational.
Leadership
leads by example rather than as CEO
The least is as important as the greatest and all are to
submit
one to another in the fear of God.
This is the example we find in the NT. You will note that
John
recognized the false by the way they
behaved and warned the Church not to receive them. judyt

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:59:59 -0700 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVEH: As I see it, the big
problem was
not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority.
  
Judy Taylor wrote: 
  

From my perspective the Mormon
boys
are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee
that Joseph Smith was right -
His
big
problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to
see as it's 
even worse today than it was
then
-he was right on that point - 
  
  

  
  


  
  
  -- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain six email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

I do want to get this right. I remember you saying that He was only the "representative of God" while on this earth. Not God but His representative -- understanding that He was God before and after (I guess). Are you saying, below that He was, in fact, God on earth? I do not understand "[not] wholly God." When God manifested Himself in a burning bush or a pillar of fire, was He not wholly God in a different form?

JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:55:00 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Sorry about that JD, I must have thought for some reason DM or you were talking to me.
and incidentally you are misrepresenting me right here. I have never claimed that Jesus was not
God in the flesh. What I deny is that He was wholly God because before He took the body upon
himself He divested Himself of divine attributes. Please don't put words in my mouth. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy, why are you answering posted comments to David?I already know and have rejected what you believe about Christ not being God Incarnate.I had somehow missed DM's point.

Jd-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:51:28 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Judyt: My point is that he was not fully God in the flesh and neither was he fully man
because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from birth
Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he diedfor us
He is what He is and we need to be open to receive that revelation from
the Lord rather than die for some creed that misrepresents Him for fear of heresy.
The important thing is that we be conformed to His image before he returns for us.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:34:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

JD wrote:
Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that
Jesus Christ was God and man.

Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God?
Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes
him man?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

2005-07-24 Thread David Miller

Gary wrote:
 you aren't God--you're a God-manipulator

Argumentum Ad Hominem

Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14









Your OCD is showing in your repetitive use
of the same wordthere is treatment for this condition. iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:11
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14







ftr, 'cute' is
purely speculative; the archives show uncontested the truth that such
speculation is the mother of all manipulation











On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:20:11 -0500
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:





Whered you pick up the big new
term, G? Is that going to replace myth for a while? Really cute. 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:17
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14







you
aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator











On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:





Youve obviously never been married
to a drunk. iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14







'you shall
die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to
the God-manipulators











On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:







||





I stay away from that and am
thankful that 





husband and children are not involved
with it. jt





||

RE: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'









JSmith was no Jesus. 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005
10:44 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A
'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'









Blainerb: Why do you not
believe God can use his own words from thescriptures to express his
displeasure over a current situation? Jesus often quoted the
scriptures to the Jews to makea point. In the book of Matthew,
the writer (Matthew) often does much the same thing. A departure from
this would have indicated the story was false. 

















In a message dated 7/23/2005 7:22:08 P.M.
Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:





JSmith quoting the real Bible in his collections of the
commandments of JSmith. 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:45
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A
'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'















Blainerb: I asked the Personages who stood above me in
the light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who
addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that
those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from
me, they teach for doctrine
the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power
thereof. Joseph Smith

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

2005-07-24 Thread David Miller

Gary wrote:
 the hostility to JC is noted--not unusual..
 'His way' is always the fatality of your way

Argumentum Ad Hominem

Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]









No wonder
he looked familiar!











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005
11:20 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd:
French Terrorism Alert]





DAVEH: It appears you also may have
modeled for the Angel Moroni statue used on many of the LDS
Temples! :-) 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 





Blainerb:Well not a rock
star, exactly--butdidn't you know I was a great trumpet player?
Maybe my name was Gabe in the pre-existence :) 












 
  
  
  
   


Blainerb
playing hisLiberty Model KING trumpet, artist bore, made
by HN Whitearound 1929.





   
  
  
  
  
 




















-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]









Really cool! My Dad played the trumpet in
the Navy during WWII (and in the basement in his later years.) You looked
darned good in 1929, Blaine!
iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005
10:58 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd:
French Terrorism Alert]









Blainerb:Well not a rock
star, exactly--butdidn't you know I was a great trumpet player?
Maybe my name was Gabe in the pre-existence :) 












 
  
  
  
   


Blainerb
playing hisLiberty Model KING trumpet, artist bore, made by
HN Whitearound 1929.





   
  
  
  
  
 






















In a message dated 7/23/2005 7:23:03 P.M.
Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:





You have fans? Are you a rock star, or what Blainerb? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:57
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd:
French Terrorism Alert]









Very good! I forwarded this to my fans.





Blainerb

RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14









And Ad
Nauseum. 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
 Miller
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 6:25 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14



Gary
wrote:

 you aren't God--you're a God-manipulator



Argumentum Ad Hominem



Peace be with you.

David Miller.

--

Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that
you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org



If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:22:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I do want to get this right. I remember you saying that He was only
the "representative of God" while on this earth. Not God but His
representative -- understanding that He was God before and after
(I guess). Are you saying, below that He was, in fact, God on
earth? I do not understand "[not] wholly God." When God
manifested Himself in a burning bush or a
pillar of fire, was He not wholly God in a different form? JD

I was saying the same thing
that you are saying below - how neat that we can agree JD :)

Anthropos is the Greek
word. Lexicon definition includes
this nuance: [with regard to the article, generically] all human
individuals [without regard to male and female] --
Thayer. (Arnt and Gengrich, Liddle and Scott add to this presentation). The
phrases "Son of God" and "Son of Man" are not specific references to God
the FAther and Mary the Mother .In a nutshell, these phrases
present to us a Christ who belongs to, is the full embodiment of, all
that isGod /all thatis man. He belongs to
God. He belongs to man(kind).He
represents God. He representsman.

JD-Original
Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:55:00 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14

Sorry about that JD, I must have thought for some reason DM or you were talking to me.
and incidentally you are misrepresenting me right
here. I have never claimed that Jesus was not
God in the flesh. What I deny is that He was
wholly God because before He took the body upon
himself He divested Himself of divine
attributes. Please don't put words in my mouth. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Judy, why are you answering posted comments to
David?I already know and have rejected what you believe about Christ not being God
Incarnate.I had somehow missed DM's point.

Jd-Original
Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:51:28 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14

Judyt: My point is that he was not fully God in the
flesh and neither was he fully man
because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from
birth
Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he
diedfor us
He is what He is and we need to be open to receive that revelation
from
the Lord rather than die for some creed that misrepresents Him for fear
of heresy.
The important thing is that we be conformed to His image before he
returns for us.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:34:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original
Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14
-0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

JD wrote:
Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that
Jesus Christ was God and man.

Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God?
Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes
him man?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

You don't believe that works (obedience)are necessary for salvation? What in the world have we been arguing about for tha last year or so?Where does obedience fit into your theological picture?

JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:07:31 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Now you are putting words in both my mouth and that of DavidM. I have never argued that we are saved by
keeping commandments and neither has DM because the Law was not given for this reason to begin with.
From what you have written it is obvious that you are not walking in His victory either because you are still in
bondage to what he has defeated. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:01:49 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy, the victory we walk in is Christ's victory over sin. All spiritual blessings are IN HIM. HE HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD.there is nothing else to do. Your teaching , logically, has no middle ground. Do you know this. Ditto for David. As soon as you argue that we must obey the commandments to be saved,you must include ALL the commandments in order to be saved and you must all the commandments RIGHT NOW in order to be saved -- because Christ sacrifice only includes "past sins." Your teaching is impossible. JD From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com

judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the victory for us but it does take effort to walk in that victory
This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and "continuing in hope"
or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil because of our faith in His victory.
This takes effort. Studying to show oneself approved and rightly dividing the Word of Truth takes effort.
He can not present us holy and blameles without our cooperation. It does not work by magic. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 and the word "blameless").

JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Judy wrote:
Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human
nature as per Galatians 5:19

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14




You must obey Jesus before God will give you the Holy 
Spirit JD. He gives the Holy Spirit to those who
obey Him. The doctrine of the 
"incarnation" alone won't cut it no matter what Lance says - jt


On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:36:56 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  You don't believe that works (obedience)are necessary for 
  salvation? What in the world have we been arguing about for tha last year or so?Where 
  does obedience fit into your theological picture?
  
  JD-Original 
  Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:07:31 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 
  16:13,14
  

  
  Now you are putting words in both my mouth and that 
  of DavidM. I have never argued that 
  we are saved by
  keeping commandments and neither has DM because the Law was not given for this reason 
  to begin with.
  From what you have written it is obvious that you are 
  not walking in His victory either because you are still in
  bondage to what he has defeated. jt
  
  On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:01:49 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  


Judy, the victory we walk in is Christ's victory over sin. All 
spiritual blessings are IN HIM. HE HAS OVERCOME THE 
WORLD.there is nothing else to 
do. Your teaching , logically, has no middle 
ground. Do you know this. Ditto for David. As soon as you argue that we must obey the commandments to be 
saved,you must include ALL the commandments in order to be 
saved and you must all the commandments RIGHT NOW in order to be saved 
-- because Christ sacrifice only includes "past sins." Your 
teaching is impossible. JD 
From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com



judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the 
victory for us but it does take effort to walk in that victory
This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and 
trembling" and "continuing in hope"
or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil 
because of our faith in His victory.
This takes effort. Studying to show oneself approved and rightly 
dividing the Word of Truth takes effort.
He can not present us holy and blameles without our cooperation. 
It does not work by magic. jt

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to 
  do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment 
  altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the 
  fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot 
  (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 
  and the word "blameless"). 
  
  JD-Original Message-From: 
  David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30 
  -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
  

  Judy wrote:
 Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human
 nature as per Galatians 5:19

Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested 
in Jesus if he had followed his flesh.  The behavior listed there does not 
describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh.  The point 
is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here.  Jesus had victory 
over them.  If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had 
victory over these temptations.

Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we 
have all these things abiding in our flesh.  Why aren't they alive?  Why 
aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, 
drunkenness, and partying on weekends?  The reason is because we reckon our 
flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life.  The 
existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us 
from being holy.  Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy.  Rather, the 
existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14