Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
"David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy wrote: I'm no longer convinced that our spirit is immediately purified and perfect when we receive Christ for several reasons. And those reasons are? Judy: Mainly generational sin and iniquities inherited from the fathers. I believe spirits come down generationally and that babies are born with them (including myself). The world calls it genetic. Fear is a spirit, it is not a condition of the soul and the Church is full of it. During the Y2K crisis it was the Christians who were storing up supplies and heading for the hills over something that proved to be nothing. Whole ministries were built on selling survival stuff. Where were faith and love? David: I'm certainly not arguing that EVERYONE who professes to be a Christian has experienced this. I speak from personal experience and my understanding of how it has worked in my life. I know of several Bible passages that confirm this perspective, but first I would like to hear your reasons for not believing that Jesus can purify our spirit immediately when we believe upon him. Judy: I believe that when we are born again or born of the Spirit that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and lead us into all truth making us part of the New Creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:5) which is the Church (corporate). We know by Heb 4:12 that the spirit and soul can be divided because God's Word divides them and if the Spirit needed no sanctification then 1 Thess 5:23 would not include it ie: "May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your SPIRIT and soul and body be preserved complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass." the soul changes as the mind is renewed helping us to walk after the Spirit daily in repentance, turning from our old ways and overcoming in the daily conflicts with the enemy. David: This sounds to me like my old life when I lived under law. When we walk in the Spirit, it is not a life of daily repentance because the Spirit leads us into all truth and righteousness. When I lived under law, however, then there were daily sins and daily repentance and the life of condemnation described in Romans 7. Judy: Conviction and condemnation are not the same. When we are convicted by the Holy Spirit about something it is Good News because the Lord chastises those who are His and gives us time and space to repent. Condemnation is for those who have no hope. I believe Paul describes conviction in Romans 7 and his hope in Romans 8. You and I both know that we are not without sin the moment we become born again or even spirit filled. Sin is an entity that lives in us. Mark 7:21 and Matt 15:19 tell us where sin is from. It is not a demon that sits on our shoulder and talks with us ie "For from WITHIN, out of the heart of men proced the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders adulteries, deeds ov ocveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, price and foolishness. ALL these evil things proceed from within and defile the man" The walk of salvation is a walk of sanctification. We must learn to discern or recognize these traits within us, take responsibility before the Lord by renouncing and turning from them which is repentance and then we will be able to rejoice and walk in newness of life and the blessings will overtake us. David: The dynamics described in Romans 7 can be walked out by a regenerated man as well as an unregenerated man. It all has to do with whether the person walks under law or under grace. A regenerated person can walk under law just as easily, or perhaps even more easily, than an unregenerated person. Judy: When we break the commandment the law judges us whether or not we claim regeneration scripture teaches that if we do not judge ourselves, we will be judged and this is the purpose of God's law. Realizing how impotent we are in and of ourselves to keep it is what drives us to Christ. David: When Paul said he had "NOT already attained" he was talking about the resurrection of the body. I have not attained the resurrection of the body either. However, Paul had attained moral perfection, for he says just a few verses after that statement of not attaining, "let us as many as be perfect be thus minded." "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this u
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Judy wrote: > I'm no longer convinced that our spirit is immediately > purified and perfect when we receive Christ for several > reasons. And those reasons are? I'm certainly not arguing that EVERYONE who professes to be a Christian has experienced this. I speak from personal experience and my understanding of how it has worked in my life. I know of several Bible passages that confirm this perspective, but first I would like to hear your reasons for not believing that Jesus can purify our spirit immediately when we believe upon him. Judy wrote: > I would probably say that the soul is renewed > and changed as we walk after the spirit daily > repenting and turning from our old ways. This sounds to me like my old life when I lived under law. When we walk in the Spirit, it is not a life of daily repentance because the Spirit leads us into all truth and righteousness. When I lived under law, however, then there were daily sins and daily repentance and the life of condemnation described in Romans 7. Judy wrote: > Not exactly. I thought the man he describes in Romans 7 > was himself before Christ .. I had heard faith teachers > say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man > but Paul wrote elsewhere that he had NOT already attained > but that he pressed on. IMO these doctrines deny reality > and are dangerous. The dynamics described in Romans 7 can be walked out by a regenerated man as well as an unregenerated man. It all has to do with whether the person walks under law or under grace. A regenerated person can walk under law just as easily, or perhaps even more easily, than an unregenerated person. When Paul said he had "NOT already attained" he was talking about the resurrection of the body. I have not attained the resurrection of the body either. However, Paul had attained moral perfection, for he says just a few verses after that statement of not attaining, "let us as many as be perfect be thus minded." Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Holiness is continually perfected as we walk in the Spirit, but this does not mean that we will continue to sin until our bodies are resurrected. To stop sinning is the beginning of walking in the Spirit. This is when a person is able to grow in the grace of Christ and mature into the godly person God desires. Sin completely thwarts the process. Judy wrote: > What about those who claim to be in Christ Jesus > who walk after the flesh? Do you believe there > is condemnation for them? Yes, of course there is condemnation for them. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Judy wrote: > ... walking after the Spirit is learned behavior > and being judged by God's Law is what puts us on > our knees and causes us to return to Christ with > our whole heart, rather than go on with a heart > divided. Walking in the Spirit is NOT learned behavior at all. This is what separates it from being under law. Being under law is learned behavior, but walking in the Spirit is a manifestation of God's grace and it happens instantly and immediately and completely. It is as miraculous as a crippled man being healed and walking. The crippled man does not learn to walk again. He immediately leaps and jumps. Judy wrote: > I am not observing a whole lot of freedom in the body > of Christ today. There are just as many curses and > just as much sickness hanging on believers as there is out > there in the world and this is why I see these 'faith' > doctrines as dangerous. They teach a false sense of > security. There is a lot of phony stuff out there to be sure. Christians in general do not show a statistical difference in regard to divorce rates, sin, sickness, death, etc. This is because not all who claim to be Christians really are. If we were able to identify the true believers and examine such statistics, I think you would find much better than average stats concerning sin, divorce, sickness, etc. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMA
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
"David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy wrote: Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us 2,000yrs ago; it is a daily choice on our part to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'. David: Both are involved in sanctification. The sanctification of the spirit happens immediately, but the sanctification of our soul is progressive. Judy: I know the 'faith teachers' teach this David; however I'm no longer convinced that our spirit is immediately purified and perfect when we receive Christ for several reasons. David: We have to look at sanctification as something that happens immediately, not progressively, or we will go back to the letter of the law. Judy: Not necessarily; it's obvious that we don't have any power in and of ourselves to be any different, a leopard can't change it's spots so it's all grace whether or not it happens immediately. David: Nevertheless, I acknowledge that the soul develops new attitudes and habits over time as we walk in the new man that he gives us instantly by faith. Judy: I would probably say that the soul is renewed and changed as we walk after the spirit daily repenting and turning from our old ways. Judy wrote: I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans 7 after he himself had been born again for more than 20yrs. David: Surprised? You mean you previously thought that Paul wrote Romans 7 before he was saved? Judy: Not exactly. I thought the man he describes in Romans 7 was himself before Christ .. I had heard faith teachers say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but Paul wrote elsewhere that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed on. IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous. David: Paul was not living Romans 7 at the time in which he wrote it. Romans 7 describes a defeated man, a man who is a slave to sin and carnal passions, a man under bondage to sin. I could write something like Romans 7 today as a redeemed man, but it would not mean that I am currently living in that defeated state. "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Romans 7:5 KJV) Consider this verse carefully before reading the rest of Romans 7. It says, "WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH." The whole chapter speaks of living a life of condemnation, one where you want to do what is right, but you can find no power to do it. This is NOT the Christian life. This is life UNDER LAW and a life of defeat because of the power of the flesh. Paul sums up his sentiments in chapter 7 with: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24 KJV). This is the work of being under law. It causes us to look for a Savior. Who will deliver us from the body of this death? The answer? Jesus Christ. That's why Paul immediately says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1 KJV) Judy: What about those who claim to be in Christ Jesus who walk after the flesh? Do you believe there is condemnation for them? David: In Romans 7, Paul describes a life of condemnation. This is life UNDER LAW. Judy: When professing believers miss it and go back to a flesh walk the law still judges them. We are either blessed or cursed according to where we walk. IMO Paul addresses this in Romans 7 and yes there is now no condemnation to those who consistently walk after the Spirit. However, walking after the Spirit is learned behavior and being judged by God's Law is what puts us on our knees and causes us to return to Christ with our whole heart, rather than go on with a heart divided. I am not observing a whole lot of freedom in the body of Christ today. There are just as many curses and just as much sickness hanging on believers as there is out there in the world and this is why I see these 'faith' doctrines as dangerous. They teach a false sense of security. Grace and Peace, Judy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Terry wrote: > I was not talking about sinning. I was > talking about being tempted to sin. Oh, ok. Sorry I misunderstood you. Romans 7 talks about a lot more than just being tempted. It talks about actually sinning. Yes, I agree with you that we are all tempted to sin, and will be until the resurrection. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
David: I appreciate the advice, and will go back to those chapters. However, I was not talking about sinning. I was talking about being tempted to sin. Two very different things. Paul was tempted, I am tempted. Even Jesus was tempted. Satan saw to that personally. Terry - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 9:29 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > Terry wrote: > > I revisited Romans seven last night. It is pretty > > plain that Paul struggled with temptation as we all > > do. I am glad that he had no problem admitting it. > > It lets me know that we are all in the same boat. > > If Romans 7 describes your life, Terry, then you are missing something. > Read this chapter in the context of chapter 6 and chapter 8. Read these > three chapters together in a row, again, and again, and again, and > again. There is only one conclusion that you can come to, and that is > that Paul found that he did not sin in Jesus Christ. He was FREE from > sin! Hallelujah! > > But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have > your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22 > KJV) > > For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from > the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was > weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of > sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the > righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after > the flesh, but after the Spirit. > (Romans 8:2-4 KJV) > > For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the > Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as > are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. > (Romans 8:13-14 KJV) > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Terry wrote: > I revisited Romans seven last night. It is pretty > plain that Paul struggled with temptation as we all > do. I am glad that he had no problem admitting it. > It lets me know that we are all in the same boat. If Romans 7 describes your life, Terry, then you are missing something. Read this chapter in the context of chapter 6 and chapter 8. Read these three chapters together in a row, again, and again, and again, and again. There is only one conclusion that you can come to, and that is that Paul found that he did not sin in Jesus Christ. He was FREE from sin! Hallelujah! But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4 KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:13-14 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Judy wrote: > Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us > 2,000yrs ago; it is a daily choice on our part to > 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'. Both are involved in sanctification. The sanctification of the spirit happens immediately, but the sanctification of our soul is progressive. We have to look at sanctification as something that happens immediately, not progressively, or we will go back to the letter of the law. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that the soul develops new attitudes and habits over time as we walk in the new man that he gives us instantly by faith. Judy wrote: > I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul > wrote Romans 7 after he himself had been born again > for more than 20yrs. Surprised? You mean you previously thought that Paul wrote Romans 7 before he was saved? Judy wrote: > I had heard faith teachers say that Romans 7 was > describing an unregenerate man but even Paul wrote > that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed > on. IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous. Paul was not living Romans 7 at the time in which he wrote it. Romans 7 describes a defeated man, a man who is a slave to sin and carnal passions, a man under bondage to sin. I could write something like Romans 7 today as a redeemed man, but it would not mean that I am currently living in that defeated state. "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Romans 7:5 KJV) Consider this verse carefully before reading the rest of Romans 7. It says, "WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH." The whole chapter speaks of living a life of condemnation, one where you want to do what is right, but you can find no power to do it. This is NOT the Christian life. This is life UNDER LAW and a life of defeat because of the power of the flesh. Paul sums up his sentiments in chapter 7 with: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24 KJV) This is the work of being under law. It causes us to look for a Savior. Who will deliver us from the body of this death? The answer? Jesus Christ. That's why Paul immediately says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1 KJV) In Romans 7, Paul describes a life of condemnation. This is life UNDER LAW. In Romans 8, he describes the Christian life of being in the Spirit. This is a very different life. It is a sanctified life where one is free in the Spirit rather than ruled by the flesh. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Dear Judy, When I wrote:"Pressing on" does not deny the facts that one is indeed dead to sin and dead to the law! Pressing on realizes that there is indeed victory already provided to the child of God through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ!"... You wrote: "The fact is that we are to "reckon" ourselves dead to sin which is something we actively do on a daily basis. Sin can arise in a heartbeat and often it does We must learn to walk in the fear of God and love perfectly because our enemies are trying to stir up our old flesh constantly." I wholeheartedly agree with you that we are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11) But the only way one can reckon anything to be true is to KNOW that it is actually a fact! If we were told to reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin and such was not an accomplished fact, scripture would be telling us to deceive ourselves into reckoning something which was not true! Our "reckoning" does not bring our death about! Our reckoning does not put the old man to death. Our reckoning does not cause us to live as though something had happened which actually did not! You had written:"IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous." ... To which I responded:"I think (you can correct me if I have read you wrong) that the doctrines to which you refer are the ones of which I spoke, namely that believers are dead to sin and dead to the law." You answered: "Depends how you are stating this Bruce; it is hardly an accomplished past tense fact, it is true only as we discern evil and choose righteousness in our daily walk with Him; and this is a walk of repentance. If/when we sin the law is there to judge us." Dear Sister, As I read the scripture verses that speak about being dead unto sin, not one of them indicates that this is true "only as we discern evil and choose righteousness in our daily walk with Him"! Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein? Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he DIED UNTO SIN once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rather, Christ died unto sin once (on the cross). WE are dead to sin because we are in Him so that when he died, we died! Because that is an accomplished fact of history, our present "reckoning" is solidly based on hiostorical fact! I would very frankly challenge your statement, "If/when we sin the law is there to judge us." Can you present even one clear statement of scripture that indicates that, when a believer sins, the law is there to judge them? By way of contrast to your claim, I John 2:1 says:"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" Also I Cor.1:30 states:" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" And I Tim.1:8-11 says:" But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. The reason why the law has no "joinder" with us, is because we have become dead to the law by the body of Christ! (Romans 7:4 and Gal.2:19) He it was who blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross!This too is an historical fact that took place at Calvary! Colossians 2:13-15 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. With these scriptures in mind, sister, could I ask you a few questions? -Is the statement of Romans 7:4 true of you?"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." -Is the statement of Galatians 2:19 true of you? "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." -How many of your trespasses did Christ forgive? Col.2:13 -How many of your trespasses
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Hi Bruce: "Bruce Woodford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: In that there is definitely a present and future aspect to the believer's sanctification, you are correct. But you cannot scripturally deny that sanctification of the believer also took place in the past! Such is clearly evident in the following passages: Acts 26:18 1 Corinthians 1:2 1 Corinthians 6:11 2 Timothy 2:2 Hebrews 2:11 Hebrews 10:10 Hebrews 10:14 Jude 1:1 You wrote:"I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans 7 after he himself had been born again for more than 20yrs. I had heard faith teachers say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but even Paul wrote that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed on." That is also true! But "pressing on" does not deny the facts that one is indeed dead to sin and dead to the law! Pressing on realizes that there is indeed victory already provided to the child of God through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ! Judy: The fact is that we are to "reckon" ourselves dead to sin which is something we actively do on a daily basis. Sin can arise in a heartbeat and often it does We must learn to walk in the fear of God and love perfectly because our enemies are trying to stir up our old flesh constantly. bw: You also wrote:"IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous." I think (you can correct me if I have read you wrong) that the doctrines to which you refer are the ones of which I spoke, namely that believers are dead to sin and dead to the law. Judy: Depends how you are stating this Bruce; it is hardly an accomplished past tense fact, it is true only as we discern evil and choose righteousness in our daily walk with Him; and this is a walk of repentance. If/when we sin the law is there to judge us. bw: Dear sister, just remember that I did not originate these docrtines, but they are clearly stated in scripture by the apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. Such CANNOT be said for the doctrines that state that believers must "die to self", or "crucify the flesh" etc etc! Judy: Ppl are prone to put their own 'spin' on scripture to support various doctrines. Fact is - God judged sin at the cross and if we will not get in agreement with Him (by calling dirt what it is) and judge sin in our own lives, we WILL BE judged and this is a fact. This is His Word and His Law is what will judge us. Being dead to the law means that we have already fulfilled it by walking it out in Christ and sin no longer has dominion over us. It does not mean we say a prayer/mantra which makes this so. Grace and Peace, Judy -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Dear Judy, You wrote:"Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us 2,000yrs ago; it is a daily choice on our part to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'." In that there is definitely a present and future aspect to the believer's sanctification, you are correct. But you cannot scripturally deny that sanctification of the believer also took place in the past! Such is clearly evident in the following passages: Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: You wrote:"I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans 7 after he himself had been born again for more than 20yrs. I had heard faith teachers say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but even Paul wrote that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed on." That is also true! But "pressing on" does not deny the facts that one is indeed dead to sin and dead to the law! Pressing on realizes that there is indeed victory already provided to the child of God through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ! Romans 7:25 and I Cor.15:57,58 You also wrote:"IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous." I think (you can correct me if I have read you wrong) that the doctrines to which you refer are the ones of which I spoke, namely that believers are dead to sin and dead to the law. Dear sister, just remember that I did not originate these docrtines, but they are clearly stated in scripture by the apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. Such CANNOT be said for the doctrines that state that believers must "die to self", or "crucify the flesh" etc etc! Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Sorry. Nothing in archives by that title.
Terry
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 3:48
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read
this II!
Terry, I think you would
find it fascinating to peruse the TT archives under discussions about
Christian Perfectionism or whatever similar thing we called it. This
would be very enlightening, bring you up to date on where we have been on this
issue (MANY times!) on TT, and eventually will save poor David Miller LOTS of
time having to explain his viewpoint all over again. I found it to be
EXTREMELY valuable. Izzy
-Original
Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terry
CliftonSent: Thursday,
September 11, 2003 4:49 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read
this II!
I did not say he was dead. I
said he was dying and would be dead. Legally, you are
correct. He is alive, but it should be obvious to anyone that you
can be alive and at the same time be dying.
As to the scriptures, Jesus
said take up your cross. I have interpreted that in a way that you
consider incorrect, but the term tells me to die to self, bury the
old man and be a new creature. The fact that the devil is
constantly trying to revive the old man is probably not scriptural
either, but it happens, and I have to nail the old guy up
again and again. I know my sins are forgiven, and I know
that I do not have to sin. I know that if I do, He will forgive
me. We are in total agreement there, but If knowing all that
should cause me to kick back in my Lazy Boy and relax, then I am
missing something. How does one earn crowns to cast at HIs
feet while simply sitting there?
Terry
Dear Terry,There
may very well be (in many cases such as your friend's) a long painful
time of disease and deterioration of the body prior to death. I
certaibly don't deny that. But one who has a week to live is not
50%, 75% or 95% dead,they are alive! They die when the soul and
spirit leave the body.Scripture never ever etaches that we are
in a "dying process" nor are we ever instructed to crucify
ourselves! BTW crucifixion is one means of death by which it is
impossible to commit suicide! You might get the one hand nailed but
then you could not nail the other!Scripture never ever instructs
us to crucify the old man! It does command usto "put off the old
man with his deeds" Col.3:9The fact of scripture that we are
dead to sin does NOT mean that we are never tempted! It DOES mean
that there is NEVER a time in a Christian's experience when he or
she HAS TO SIN! We are no longer under sin's dominion.The
fact of scripture that we are dead to the law does NOT mean that we are
sinlessly perfect, it DOES mean that EVERY CHARGE THAT THE LAW HAD
AGAINST US HAS BEEN SATISFIED AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED.
Therefore, the law has no claim against the believer who has trusted
in Christ. As II Cor.5:21 declares, "For He hath made Him to be sin
for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of
God in Him."Acknowledging and believing (resting upon) these
foundational facts of scripture give tremendous power to the child
of God when tempted to sin! But if a believer, when tempted, thinks
that he is still alive to sin (i.e. has to sin because he is still
under sin's dominion) and still alive to the law (the law has many
charges against him which have never been satisfied)...he is
deceived and therefore will live out what he actually believes! His
life will be one of continual defeat. But knowing the truth will set
him free!Your brother in Christ,Bruce>From:
"Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!>Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003
07:23:13 -0500>>Bruce:>>I thought I had
communicated so that anyone could understand. Evidently>not. Too
bad.>>I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past
three months, he has gone>from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds.
From a big robust man to a bag of>bones. He will not live another
week. He lives now in terrible pain. Tell>him that dying only
takes only an instant
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Terry, I think you would find it fascinating to peruse the TT archives under discussions about “Christian Perfectionism” or whatever similar thing we called it. This would be very enlightening, bring you up to date on where we have been on this issue (MANY times!) on TT, and eventually will save poor David Miller LOTS of time having to explain his viewpoint all over again. I found it to be EXTREMELY valuable. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 4:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! I did not say he was dead. I said he was dying and would be dead. Legally, you are correct. He is alive, but it should be obvious to anyone that you can be alive and at the same time be dying. As to the scriptures, Jesus said take up your cross. I have interpreted that in a way that you consider incorrect, but the term tells me to die to self, bury the old man and be a new creature. The fact that the devil is constantly trying to revive the old man is probably not scriptural either, but it happens, and I have to nail the old guy up again and again. I know my sins are forgiven, and I know that I do not have to sin. I know that if I do, He will forgive me. We are in total agreement there, but If knowing all that should cause me to kick back in my Lazy Boy and relax, then I am missing something. How does one earn crowns to cast at HIs feet while simply sitting there? Terry Dear Terry, There may very well be (in many cases such as your friend's) a long painful time of disease and deterioration of the body prior to death. I certaibly don't deny that. But one who has a week to live is not 50%, 75% or 95% dead, they are alive! They die when the soul and spirit leave the body. Scripture never ever etaches that we are in a "dying process" nor are we ever instructed to crucify ourselves! BTW crucifixion is one means of death by which it is impossible to commit suicide! You might get the one hand nailed but then you could not nail the other! Scripture never ever instructs us to crucify the old man! It does command us to "put off the old man with his deeds" Col.3:9 The fact of scripture that we are dead to sin does NOT mean that we are never tempted! It DOES mean that there is NEVER a time in a Christian's experience when he or she HAS TO SIN! We are no longer under sin's dominion. The fact of scripture that we are dead to the law does NOT mean that we are sinlessly perfect, it DOES mean that EVERY CHARGE THAT THE LAW HAD AGAINST US HAS BEEN SATISFIED AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. Therefore, the law has no claim against the believer who has trusted in Christ. As II Cor.5:21 declares, "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." Acknowledging and believing (resting upon) these foundational facts of scripture give tremendous power to the child of God when tempted to sin! But if a believer, when tempted, thinks that he is still alive to sin (i.e. has to sin because he is still under sin's dominion) and still alive to the law (the law has many charges against him which have never been satisfied)...he is deceived and therefore will live out what he actually believes! His life will be one of continual defeat. But knowing the truth will set him free! Your brother in Christ, Bruce >From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500 > >Bruce: > >I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand. Evidently >not. Too bad. > >I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past three months, he has gone >from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds. From a big robust man to a bag of >bones. He will not live another week. He lives now in terrible pain. Tell >him that dying only takes only an instant. > >Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the time >of >conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we begin to >age, before we leave the womb. Dying is a long time thing. > >I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself. No >matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for other men >the way I would do it for my Lord. That is a daily struggle. I must >consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord. > >Evidently, you are no longer tempted to sin. Good for you.
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
The opposite of catabolism, which is the body breaking itself down (usually to extricate energy). If you are fasting too long the body actually starts consuming itself—catabolism. Anabolism is the process of metabolic buildup—constructive metabolism. J Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 3:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! Izzy: You gotta stop speakin' in tongues. Anabolism? Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 15:13:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! g, seems to me that from conception to about the age of 40 we are pretty much in a state of anabolism. Seems like after 40, it’s catabolism all the way. J Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! the premise denied, below, is basic to JCs teaching; e.g., Jn 11, while he's talking to Martha sayin' "even if he dies"; vs. 25 NASB; much better translation work than KJV "though he were dead". IOW, "dies" captures the real idea of JCs thought process and runs counter to the TT writer's assertion, below. "dies" also rings true relative to Terry's (cancer) example and the example of my son Andrew's physical demise (too)--sure they're alive, amid the process of death FTR, poet Larry Norman captures JCs thought process perfectly; writes "I don't believe the Devil/ I ain't gonna be his slave/and when I finish dyin' I'm gonna bust out of my grave" people (like Izzy and Bruce) need to give the NT some thought--the truth is full of surprises gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:28:39 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [Bruce:] > >>Scripture never ever [teaches] that we are in a "dying process".. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here <>
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! Izzy: It would appear that we have pushed your button one too many times. I want to apologize for my part in this. I was blissfully unaware that I was acting as a critic. This faith and works thing works for me like this. I believe, so I (almost always) behave. I behave because my Savior tells me to do as He says. If I had no faith, there would be no works. It would be Hooray for me and to Hell with you, get out of my way and let me do my thing. I know that because I was once like that. It is the way of the world. Terry, Same with me! You are right. I read my Bible daily. Paul commended the Bereans for doing the same thing, so Bible reading is good, not bad. I also begin and end my day with prayer, and pray often during the in between times. This is also good. We are told to pray without ceasing. I think that if you love someone it is natural to talk to them. to want to know how to please them, to behave in a way that does not shame or embarrass them. It is the same with the Lord, only more so. My point is NOT that those things are not good: my point is that, by your own definition, these are “works”. TT’ers love to criticize others for “works”, while doing other works themselves. Get it? There was a time in my wife's life when she would have been pleased to receive a teddy bear or a Barbie doll. Now that she is older, she prefers diamonds. That is how it is in our walk with the Lord. There was a time when He would have been pleased with a tithe, or a diet, or setting aside a certain day, but those days have passed, and now He prefers that we love our enemy and do good to those who hate us. If you cannot see that yet, I will endeavor to pray you through this time rather than verbally abuse you. Don’t worry, Terry; several years of TT experience has made me thick-skinned. J I like the example about your wife. What if your wife sent you a letter, detailing exactly the ways in which you could please her, but then you convened a committee which decided that it would be better to give her something else entirely? You meant well, but you would have missed the opportunity to give her exactly what she requested. In that same way, the Lord has written His desires to us, and we have collectively, over the centuries, decided that what He really meant was something altogether different. One example: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm. As to the day you choose to worship; here I must plead not guilty. Paul says plainly in Romans 14:5 that "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." This was not about the 7th day Sabbath specifically. Paul observed the Sabbath, and that was never an issue in question to the original church. There were many other “sabbaths” which were never a requirement in God’s word. Those you could take or leave. There are also sabbaths during festivals such as Passover, Yom Kippur, etc. In other words, Let your conscience be your guide. I do. So why do you condemn me? The Jews were used to meeting on the seventh day, because they wanted to please God. Correctly. The early Christians met on the first day of the week to remember that the Lord arose on that day. THEIR idea; not God’s, after the 4th century. Paul says God is not offended either way. To impute those words to Paul is not fair to Paul. God said He is offended if we ignore His Sabbath because that is the day HE rested. I like to think that I worship every day, by praying, by studying, by helping others. Our home church meets on Tuesday evening, not Saturday or Sunday, and not primarily to worship, but to edify. That’s great. But which day do you rest? Jesus is always there, where two or three are gathered. Amen. If you do not want to eat a pig because it is wormy, that makes sense. If you feel that you cannot eat a pig or God won't be pleased, you need to do like the Bereans until you cannot misunderstand what Jesus and His apostles had to say about that. I will leave it to God to decide that; not you or TT, if you don’t mind. Now, has TT livened up to your satisfaction? It has lived up to my expectations. J Izzy Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 21:00:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! Geewillikers, Te
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Izzy: You gotta stop speakin' in tongues. Anabolism? Terry ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 15:13:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! g, seems to me that from conception to about the age of 40 we are pretty much in a state of anabolism. Seems like after 40, its catabolism all the way. J Iz -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:30 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! the premise denied, below, is basic to JCs teaching; e.g., Jn 11, while he's talking to Martha sayin' "even if he dies"; vs. 25 NASB; much better translation work than KJV "though he were dead". IOW, "dies" captures the real idea of JCs thought process and runs counter to the TT writer's assertion, below. "dies" also rings true relative to Terry's (cancer) example and the example of my son Andrew's physical demise (too)--sure they're alive, amid the process of death FTR, poet Larry Norman captures JCs thought process perfectly; writes "I don't believe the Devil/ I ain't gonna be his slave/and when I finish dyin' I'm gonna bust out of my grave" people (like Izzy and Bruce) need to give the NT some thought--the truth is full of surprises gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:28:39 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:[Bruce:]> >>Scripture never ever [teaches] that we are in a "dying process".. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
g, seems to me that from conception to about the age of 40 we are pretty much in a state of anabolism. Seems like after 40, it’s catabolism all the way. J Iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! the premise denied, below, is basic to JCs teaching; e.g., Jn 11, while he's talking to Martha sayin' "even if he dies"; vs. 25 NASB; much better translation work than KJV "though he were dead". IOW, "dies" captures the real idea of JCs thought process and runs counter to the TT writer's assertion, below. "dies" also rings true relative to Terry's (cancer) example and the example of my son Andrew's physical demise (too)--sure they're alive, amid the process of death FTR, poet Larry Norman captures JCs thought process perfectly; writes "I don't believe the Devil/ I ain't gonna be his slave/and when I finish dyin' I'm gonna bust out of my grave" people (like Izzy and Bruce) need to give the NT some thought--the truth is full of surprises gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:28:39 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [Bruce:] > >>Scripture never ever [teaches] that we are in a "dying process"..
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Judy: Thanks for the information. I revisited Romans seven last night. It is pretty plain that Paul struggled with temptation as we all do. I am glad that he had no problem admitting it. It lets me know that we are all in the same boat. Thanks again, Terry - Original Message - From: "Judith H. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > Good response Terry, > > Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us 2,000yrs ago; it is a > daily > choice on our part to 'work out our own salvation with fear and > trembling'. I was > recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans 7 after he > himself had > been born again for more than 20yrs. I had heard faith teachers say that > Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but even Paul wrote that he > had > NOT already attained but that he pressed on. > > IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous. > > Grace and Peace to you today, > Judy > > > > On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500 "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > Bruce: > > > > I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand. > > Evidently > > not. Too bad. > > > > I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past three months, he > > has gone > > from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds. From a big robust man to a > > bag of > > bones. He will not live another week. He lives now in terrible > > pain. Tell > > him that dying only takes only an instant. > > > > Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the > > time of > > conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we > > begin to > > age, before we leave the womb. Dying is a long time thing. > > > > I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself. > > No > > matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for > > other men > > the way I would do it for my Lord. That is a daily struggle. I > > must > > consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord. > > > > Evidently, you are no longer tempted to sin. Good for you. I > > cannot say > > that. > > > > Terry > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Bruce Woodford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:47 PM > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > > > > > > > Hi Terry, > > > > > > You wrote:"People who took up their cross in Jesus' day were not > > on their > > > way to a picnic. They were going to die. When you take up your > > cross, you > > > no longer live, but Christ lives in you. The plans and wants I > > once had > > > are no longer important. They are dead. What is important now is > > serving > > my > > > Lord and trying to live a life that pleases Him. Since the > > struggle to do > > > this never ends, it is a lifetime job, and at the same time a > > joy. > > > > > > Does that not make sense to you?" > > > > > > Dear brother, All of the Lord Jesus' statements relative to taking > > up the > > > cross and following Him were made PRIOR TO HIS CRUCIFIXION. This > > sort of > > > statement is never repeated for people this side of Calvary! > > Rather, our > > > death with Christ was accomplished when He died. That is why Paul > > stated > > in > > > Gal.2:20..."I am (or have been) crucified with Christ, > > nevertheless I > > live, > > > yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life which I now live > > in the > > > flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave > > Himself > > > for me." > > > > > > Death is never a process, but it take place in an instant. Death > > is always > > > separation of two or more things and life is always the union of > > two or > > more > > > things. > > > > > > (1)The death which Adam and Eve experienced in the garden when > > they sinned > > > was separation from God. We often call this "spiritual death". > > See > > Gen.2:17 > > > and Isaiah 59:2 > > > > > > (2)Physical death takes place when one's soul and spirit are > > separated > > from > > > th
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Could you please enlighten me on this? It sounds like something I have not heard of before. "we keep the six commandments of Shabbat because we love YHVH." Thanks, Marlin - Original Message - From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > Shame, shame, shame
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Shame, shame, shame There you Shabbat-haters go again, taking the passage out of context. We were to "stay in our place" on the Shabbat AS OPPOSED TO going out and collecting manna. Remember... we got a double portion THAT DIDN'T WORM on Shabbat. Read Leviticus 23... the Shabbat was the FIRST of nine festivals that were called HOLY CONVOCATIONS. Do you remember our Messiah... I'm sure you know Him... He's in the Gospels. What did He do on the Shabbat...? As His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Shabbat and stood up to read." You said, "You see, all those who are of the works of the law are under the curse. (Gal.3:10)" This is true... but you have committed eisegesis in your definition. You see, the Book of Galatians tells us what the definition is, but you missed it. to be "of the works of the law and thereby being under a curse" is someone who "seeks to be justified by the law." Izzy nor I commit that sin. You appear to commit the exact opposite... you are so afraid of the nomenclature "works" and "under the law" that you commit the gravest of sins... nothing. You do nothing with the commandments of God. Instead of belittling and judging the actions and heart of another... (i.e., " just wonder how closely you actually obey the Lord's Sabbath commandments") perhaps you can tell us how YOU keep this commandment. We (and I speak for Izzy as well on this because of our communications) we keep the six commandments of Shabbat because we love YHVH. We do not keep the Shabbat to justify ourselves before YHVH or to gain or retain our salvation. We keep the Shabbat commandments because in doing so, we AFFIRM the righteousness of God and His commandments. We do ALL for the glory of YHVH. We do NOTHING (or at least should not) for our own glory. If we do nothing with the commandments, as affirm that God as been disposed from the pedestal of our hearts and our won lusts and laziness are the supreme god in our lives. Again, your interpretation of Romans 14:1-4 or in I Tim.4:3,4 is an example of you putting your own (actually someone else's) ideas into the text. Think within the context of Paul's life. Read the last recorded words of Paul in Acts 28, and determine within His Torah-observant worldview what he would consider "food?" Just vegetables? Vegetables and Biblically "kosher" foods? Think outside your worldview and you'll be much better off. After all, in the Creation, ALL THINGS were called "good" or "very good" as in the case of your creation. However, even Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean. They were all GOOD but GOOD does not necessarily mean dietary. shalom slade e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Woodford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2003 23:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > Hi Izzy, > > Relative to your sabbath keeping, I'm curious to know how you spend your > Saturdays... > > Do you always stay at home on Saturdays? The 7th day was not a day for > "going to church or tabernacle"! See, Exodus 16:29 for that the LORD hath > given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of > two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on > the seventh day. > > Do you or any of your family members do any work on the sabbath? See Exodus > 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou > shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, > nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy > gates: > > Do you believe that you would be committing a capital offence to do any work > on the sabbath? You see, all those who are of the works of the law are > under the curse. (Gal.3:10) See Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath > therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely > be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be > cut off from among his people. Also > Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath > of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he > shall surely be put to death. > And Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there > shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth > work therein shall be put to death. > > Do you do any cooking or heating on the sabbath? See Exodus 35:3 Ye shall > kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. > > I just wonder how closely you actually obey the Lord's sabbath commandments. > Can you tell us how you ap
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Good response Terry, Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us 2,000yrs ago; it is a daily choice on our part to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'. I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans 7 after he himself had been born again for more than 20yrs. I had heard faith teachers say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but even Paul wrote that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed on. IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous. Grace and Peace to you today, Judy On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500 "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Bruce: > > I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand. > Evidently > not. Too bad. > > I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past three months, he > has gone > from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds. From a big robust man to a > bag of > bones. He will not live another week. He lives now in terrible > pain. Tell > him that dying only takes only an instant. > > Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the > time of > conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we > begin to > age, before we leave the womb. Dying is a long time thing. > > I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself. > No > matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for > other men > the way I would do it for my Lord. That is a daily struggle. I > must > consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord. > > Evidently, you are no longer tempted to sin. Good for you. I > cannot say > that. > > Terry > > > - Original Message - > From: "Bruce Woodford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! > > > > Hi Terry, > > > > You wrote:"People who took up their cross in Jesus' day were not > on their > > way to a picnic. They were going to die. When you take up your > cross, you > > no longer live, but Christ lives in you. The plans and wants I > once had > > are no longer important. They are dead. What is important now is > serving > my > > Lord and trying to live a life that pleases Him. Since the > struggle to do > > this never ends, it is a lifetime job, and at the same time a > joy. > > > > Does that not make sense to you?" > > > > Dear brother, All of the Lord Jesus' statements relative to taking > up the > > cross and following Him were made PRIOR TO HIS CRUCIFIXION. This > sort of > > statement is never repeated for people this side of Calvary! > Rather, our > > death with Christ was accomplished when He died. That is why Paul > stated > in > > Gal.2:20..."I am (or have been) crucified with Christ, > nevertheless I > live, > > yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life which I now live > in the > > flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave > Himself > > for me." > > > > Death is never a process, but it take place in an instant. Death > is always > > separation of two or more things and life is always the union of > two or > more > > things. > > > > (1)The death which Adam and Eve experienced in the garden when > they sinned > > was separation from God. We often call this "spiritual death". > See > Gen.2:17 > > and Isaiah 59:2 > > > > (2)Physical death takes place when one's soul and spirit are > separated > from > > their body. See Gen.35:18 and James 2:26 > > > > (3)Death to sin took place when the Lord Jesus bore our sin in His > own > body > > on the tree and thus took it from my account. Romans 6:9,10 and I > Peter > 2:24 > > > > (4)Death to the law and it's condemnation also took place at > Calvary. When > I > > realized what actually happened at Calvary, that I was justified > (declared > > righteous in Christ) I learned that the law was fully satisfied > and > > therefore I was separated from every charge that had been against > me! > That > > is why he that believeth on Him (Christ) is NOT CONDEMNED! See > Col.2:14; > > Romans 5:1-11; John 3:18 etc > > > > But it is an absolute impossibility to be separated from one's > self! So > > "death to self" is an impossibility and is not even a scriptural > term! > > > > In Adam, I experienced spiritual death. I was separated from God
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
PTL! You guys are all such a blessing to me. :-) Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! Dear Terry, There may very well be (in many cases such as your friend's) a long painful time of disease and deterioration of the body prior to death. I certaibly don't deny that. But one who has a week to live is not 50%, 75% or 95% dead, they are alive! They die when the soul and spirit leave the body. Scripture never ever etaches that we are in a "dying process" nor are we ever instructed to crucify ourselves! BTW crucifixion is one means of death by which it is impossible to commit suicide! You might get the one hand nailed but then you could not nail the other! Scripture never ever instructs us to crucify the old man! It does command us to "put off the old man with his deeds" Col.3:9 The fact of scripture that we are dead to sin does NOT mean that we are never tempted! It DOES mean that there is NEVER a time in a Christian's experience when he or she HAS TO SIN! We are no longer under sin's dominion. The fact of scripture that we are dead to the law does NOT mean that we are sinlessly perfect, it DOES mean that EVERY CHARGE THAT THE LAW HAD AGAINST US HAS BEEN SATISFIED AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. Therefore, the law has no claim against the believer who has trusted in Christ. As II Cor.5:21 declares, "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." Acknowledging and believing (resting upon) these foundational facts of scripture give tremendous power to the child of God when tempted to sin! But if a believer, when tempted, thinks that he is still alive to sin (i.e. has to sin because he is still under sin's dominion) and still alive to the law (the law has many charges against him which have never been satisfied)...he is deceived and therefore will live out what he actually believes! His life will be one of continual defeat. But knowing the truth will set him free! Your brother in Christ, Bruce >From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500 > >Bruce: > >I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand. Evidently >not. Too bad. > >I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past three months, he has gone >from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds. From a big robust man to a bag of >bones. He will not live another week. He lives now in terrible pain. Tell >him that dying only takes only an instant. > >Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the time >of >conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we begin to >age, before we leave the womb. Dying is a long time thing. > >I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself. No >matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for other men >the way I would do it for my Lord. That is a daily struggle. I must >consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord. > >Evidently, you are no longer tempted to sin. Good for you. I cannot say >that. > >Terry _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Dear Terry, There may very well be (in many cases such as your friend's) a long painful time of disease and deterioration of the body prior to death. I certaibly don't deny that. But one who has a week to live is not 50%, 75% or 95% dead, they are alive! They die when the soul and spirit leave the body. Scripture never ever etaches that we are in a "dying process" nor are we ever instructed to crucify ourselves! BTW crucifixion is one means of death by which it is impossible to commit suicide! You might get the one hand nailed but then you could not nail the other! Scripture never ever instructs us to crucify the old man! It does command us to "put off the old man with his deeds" Col.3:9 The fact of scripture that we are dead to sin does NOT mean that we are never tempted! It DOES mean that there is NEVER a time in a Christian's experience when he or she HAS TO SIN! We are no longer under sin's dominion. The fact of scripture that we are dead to the law does NOT mean that we are sinlessly perfect, it DOES mean that EVERY CHARGE THAT THE LAW HAD AGAINST US HAS BEEN SATISFIED AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. Therefore, the law has no claim against the believer who has trusted in Christ. As II Cor.5:21 declares, "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." Acknowledging and believing (resting upon) these foundational facts of scripture give tremendous power to the child of God when tempted to sin! But if a believer, when tempted, thinks that he is still alive to sin (i.e. has to sin because he is still under sin's dominion) and still alive to the law (the law has many charges against him which have never been satisfied)...he is deceived and therefore will live out what he actually believes! His life will be one of continual defeat. But knowing the truth will set him free! Your brother in Christ, Bruce From: "Terry Clifton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500 Bruce: I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand. Evidently not. Too bad. I have a dear friend who has cancer. In the past three months, he has gone from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds. From a big robust man to a bag of bones. He will not live another week. He lives now in terrible pain. Tell him that dying only takes only an instant. Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the time of conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we begin to age, before we leave the womb. Dying is a long time thing. I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself. No matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for other men the way I would do it for my Lord. That is a daily struggle. I must consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord. Evidently, you are no longer tempted to sin. Good for you. I cannot say that. Terry _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Slade wrote: > I hear this comment a lot, Dave, and I need you > to explain this for me because it make NO SENSE > to me. You said, "we serve the SPIRIT and not the > LETTER." What in God's Green Earth does that comment > mean to someone who knows they are saved by Grace > but are obedient to the WHOLE revealed Scriptures > (Old and New Testament only at this time, please) > out of love for YHVH? There is a love that is walked out in the flesh, and there is a love that is walked out in the spirit. We are not just obedient unto the Scriptures, but unto our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many are obedient unto the Scriptures who have never heard the Spirit at all, and no one can be obedient to the Spirit unless they hear him. But now WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, and not in the oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:6 KJV) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28-29 KJV) What this means is that direction comes not from reading the ink on paper that communicates the law of God, but from the Spirit of God residing within us, which we receive when we believe upon him. Our focus ought to be upon Jesus, as communicated to us through the Holy Spirit who dwells inside of us, rather than on the Bible and the letters written there with ink. We certainly study the Scriptures because they are profitable for instructing one another in the way of righteousness, but the Scriptures themselves point us to a different experience lived out in the Spirit. Following are some examples from Scripture of how men were led by the Spirit: Then THE SPIRIT SAID unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. (Acts 8:29 KJV) While Peter thought on the vision, THE SPIRIT SAID UNTO HIM, Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. (Acts 10:19-20 KJV) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and SIGNIFIED BY THE SPIRIT that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. (Acts 11:27-28 KJV) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and WERE FORBIDDEN OF THE HOLY GHOST TO PREACH THE WORD IN ASIA, After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: BUT THE SPIRIT SUFFERED THEM NOT. And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, ASSUREDLY GATHERING THAT THE LORD HAD CALLED US FOR TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTO THEM. (Acts 16:6-10 KJV) And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that THE HOLY GHOST WITNESSETH IN EVERY CITY, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Acts 20:22-23 KJV) Now THE SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. (1 Timothy 4:1-7 KJV) I hope by these passages, you will be able to understand what I mean by contrasting spirit and letter. It seems to me very important for us to discern the difference between being led by the Spirit of Christ and being led by the Letter of Law. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
