subject:"\[TruthTalk\] Land of the Free"

David: As I've quoted so many times: no syntactics contains ITS OWN
semantics.
 You are correct IFF (if and only if) you never have to visit that
woodshed again. What are the chances of that being the case?
 What I believe changed was behaviour. That change is temporary.
 Lance
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 16, 2004 22:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

 Lance wrote:
  I don't believe that punishment, though necessary,
  ever changes hearts.

 It sure seems to change the hearts of my kids.  Just today one of my
 girls was acting inappropriately in church.  After a trip outside to the
 woodshed so to speak, she came back in with a completely different
 attitude.

 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction
 shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15 KJV)

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

David: I believe that you've just illustrated how the conscience becomes
socialized.
 Lance
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 16, 2004 22:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

 Lance wrote:
  I don't believe that punishment, though necessary,
  ever changes hearts.

 It sure seems to change the hearts of my kids.  Just today one of my
 girls was acting inappropriately in church.  After a trip outside to the
 woodshed so to speak, she came back in with a completely different
 attitude.

 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction
 shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15 KJV)

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

2004-05-17 Thread David Miller

Lance wrote:
 As I've quoted so many times: no syntactics contains 
 ITS OWN semantics.

You dropped the discussion on this topic, so I'm not sure what your
peculiar understanding of this is.  I hate guessing at what people are
thinking, but in this case, I think I must offer some comments.  If they
don't apply to you, don't get mad at me and say that I am
misrepresenting you.  Just clarify your perspective.

Syntactics is not the same as syntax, and yet it appears that you are
interpreting this statement in that way to make fallacious arguments.
Syntax certainly does have its own semantics, as I have shown in a
previous post.  Syntactics, on the other hand, is a system of using
symbols to represent concepts.  Gödel reduced some philosophical
statements to mathematical symbols in order to create some interesting
theorems and proofs.  By doing this, a side observation is made of no
syntactics contains its own semantics.  Big deal.  Everyone who has
studied algebra already knows this is true.  We substitute symbols all
the time in order to resolve mathematical problems.  Children call them
word problems.  We convert the problem stated in words to mathematical
symbols, and then we can use the logic system of math to resolve the
problem without clouding our mind with the specific meanings of the
symbols themselves.  Every child who has worked math problems
understands this, but you have to say, no syntactics contains its own
semantics, which only obfuscates the issue while at the same time
causing you to appear intelligent by your use of esoteric words that
only few understand.   

So to aid our communication, please recognize the difference between
syntax and syntactics, more specifically, symbol meaning.  The syntax of
a sentence is something much more than the substitution of symbols.  The
arrangment of words can have specific meaning, and it is a meaning
defined by the language itself.  Therefore, while I might agree that no
syntactics has its own semantics, I would not agree that no syntax (the
order and arrangment of words and structural elements) has its own
semantics (meaning).

Lance wrote:
 You are correct IFF (if and only if) you never have to visit that
woodshed again. What are the chances of that being the case?
 What I believe changed was behaviour. That change is temporary.

Why do you insist that I would be correct ONLY if future punishment was
not necessary?  What if I said you were correct if and only if you never
had to speak to her again about her misbehavior?  Would that mean that
words do not change a person's heart?  Of course not.  I expect a series
of punishments and instruction to be needed.  I might have to spank her
7 times and speak to her 50 times before her heart is changed.  So what.
These are the tools used to change her heart. 

I think perhaps what you mean to say is that punishment ALONE is
insufficient to change hearts.  I would agree with that statement.  If
my wife punishes one of our children, I am always asking her what she
said to the child because that is more important, in my perspective,
than the actual punishment itself.  The combination of love, words, and
punishment is a powerful way to change hearts.  These are the methods of
God himself, giving us the law and its decree of punishment, and also
giving us the good news of the gospel of mercy found in Jesus Christ.
Systems that advocate only the use of words or only the use of
punishment always seem to fail.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

2004-05-17 Thread David Miller

Lance wrote:
 I believe that you've just illustrated how 
 the conscience becomes socialized.

No, I don't believe that I have.  I was not a child that long ago.  When
I misbehaved, I did not do so because my conscience told me too.  I knew
I was doing wrong.  I acted against my conscience, and the punishment of
my parents helped me to realize that I needed to follow my conscience.
I see the same thing in my children.  They know that my punishments are
helping them to do what is right, to get them to have behavior that
conforms to the voice of their conscience rather than against it. 

In the past I used a paddle for punishment.  It was very interesting
that one of my daughters taped a bunch of napkins around the handle of
the paddle and presented it to me.  She said it was so my hand would be
more comfortable when I used the paddle.  Note that she did not put any
padding around the part of the paddle that inflicted pain upon her when
it was used.  

When she did wrong, sometimes she would bring me the paddle and hand it
to me to spank her.  She obviously became more sensitive to her
conscience and learned to heed it.  As she walked according to her
conscience, she learned that she could avoid punishment and also have
favor with her parents and with God.  Spankings became fewer and fewer,
and now I never spank her.  She makes very good moral choices in life.
I am very proud of her and honored by her.  I am confident that she will
go into life serving the Lord with all her heart.  Her training has been
completed.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

David: May I quote further?:...its own semantics. That is to say, the
referential relations of language must be given priority over syntactical
relations, while it is only as syntactical relations are themselves open
through their boundary conditions to a controlling center beyond them that
they may be meaningfully understood themselves. If syntactical relations can
be understood and handled in this way; it is not so likely that we will
project the kind of relations that obtain among words and sentences into the
objective realities to which they are semantically correlated Lance
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 17, 2004 09:08
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free


Lance wrote:
 As I've quoted so many times: no syntactics contains
 ITS OWN semantics.

You dropped the discussion on this topic, so I'm not sure what your
peculiar understanding of this is.  I hate guessing at what people are
thinking, but in this case, I think I must offer some comments.  If they
don't apply to you, don't get mad at me and say that I am
misrepresenting you.  Just clarify your perspective.

Syntactics is not the same as syntax, and yet it appears that you are
interpreting this statement in that way to make fallacious arguments.
Syntax certainly does have its own semantics, as I have shown in a
previous post.  Syntactics, on the other hand, is a system of using
symbols to represent concepts.  Gödel reduced some philosophical
statements to mathematical symbols in order to create some interesting
theorems and proofs.  By doing this, a side observation is made of no
syntactics contains its own semantics.  Big deal.  Everyone who has
studied algebra already knows this is true.  We substitute symbols all
the time in order to resolve mathematical problems.  Children call them
word problems.  We convert the problem stated in words to mathematical
symbols, and then we can use the logic system of math to resolve the
problem without clouding our mind with the specific meanings of the
symbols themselves.  Every child who has worked math problems
understands this, but you have to say, no syntactics contains its own
semantics, which only obfuscates the issue while at the same time
causing you to appear intelligent by your use of esoteric words that
only few understand.

So to aid our communication, please recognize the difference between
syntax and syntactics, more specifically, symbol meaning.  The syntax of
a sentence is something much more than the substitution of symbols.  The
arrangment of words can have specific meaning, and it is a meaning
defined by the language itself.  Therefore, while I might agree that no
syntactics has its own semantics, I would not agree that no syntax (the
order and arrangment of words and structural elements) has its own
semantics (meaning).

Lance wrote:
 You are correct IFF (if and only if) you never have to visit that
woodshed again. What are the chances of that being the case?
 What I believe changed was behaviour. That change is temporary.

Why do you insist that I would be correct ONLY if future punishment was
not necessary?  What if I said you were correct if and only if you never
had to speak to her again about her misbehavior?  Would that mean that
words do not change a person's heart?  Of course not.  I expect a series
of punishments and instruction to be needed.  I might have to spank her
7 times and speak to her 50 times before her heart is changed.  So what.
These are the tools used to change her heart.

I think perhaps what you mean to say is that punishment ALONE is
insufficient to change hearts.  I would agree with that statement.  If
my wife punishes one of our children, I am always asking her what she
said to the child because that is more important, in my perspective,
than the actual punishment itself.  The combination of love, words, and
punishment is a powerful way to change hearts.  These are the methods of
God himself, giving us the law and its decree of punishment, and also
giving us the good news of the gospel of mercy found in Jesus Christ.
Systems that advocate only the use of words or only the use of
punishment always seem to fail.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

David: Were you and, are people globally born with veridical access? Lance
- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 17, 2004 09:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

 Lance wrote:
  I believe that you've just illustrated how
  the conscience becomes socialized.

 No, I don't believe that I have.  I was not a child that long ago.  When
 I misbehaved, I did not do so because my conscience told me too.  I knew
 I was doing wrong.  I acted against my conscience, and the punishment of
 my parents helped me to realize that I needed to follow my conscience.
 I see the same thing in my children.  They know that my punishments are
 helping them to do what is right, to get them to have behavior that
 conforms to the voice of their conscience rather than against it.

 In the past I used a paddle for punishment.  It was very interesting
 that one of my daughters taped a bunch of napkins around the handle of
 the paddle and presented it to me.  She said it was so my hand would be
 more comfortable when I used the paddle.  Note that she did not put any
 padding around the part of the paddle that inflicted pain upon her when
 it was used.

 When she did wrong, sometimes she would bring me the paddle and hand it
 to me to spank her.  She obviously became more sensitive to her
 conscience and learned to heed it.  As she walked according to her
 conscience, she learned that she could avoid punishment and also have
 favor with her parents and with God.  Spankings became fewer and fewer,
 and now I never spank her.  She makes very good moral choices in life.
 I am very proud of her and honored by her.  I am confident that she will
 go into life serving the Lord with all her heart.  Her training has been
 completed.

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

Globally: The inclinations of the human heart are
today what they were 5,000 years ago. Though "things" are different they are not
"worse".
In a small town in a Canadian province there was a
run on dead bolt locks. Crime was not on the rise. Their satelite was providing
evening news from Detroit.
Blessings, Lance

- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: May 16, 2004 08:58
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free

America,
the land of the free and lawless. Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin halversonSent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:56
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free

"Land of the
FreeJust some interesting factoids here:
In 1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United States.
Today, there are literally thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78
percent of the counties have at least one prison. I read an article by
Paul Craig Roberts on America and its prisons. I quote a
small portion here: "The US has a unique distinction: It is
the worlds greatest prison state. The US, "the land
of the free," has the biggest prison population in the world and the highest
rate of prisoners per capita of all countries including countries that
President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even
China, with one party rule
and a population that is 4.5 times larger than the US population, has 30% fewer total prisoners
than the US. Chinas per capita rate is a small fraction of
the US rate. The
US prison population per
capita is three times higher than "axis of evil" country Iran, five times higher than
Tanzania, and seven times
higher than a civilized European country like Germany.
One out of every 142 Americans is in prison and this does not include
military prisons or INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during
which the US population grew by 21%, the
number of state and federal inmates soared by 312%." http://www.truthontheweb.org
/NwsClpz/051504.html

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free









http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml.
Serious crimes
reported to the police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, down 7
percent from the year before and by far the longest-running crime decline on
record, the FBI reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary figures for 1999
extended a trend begun in 1992 that is now almost three times longer than the
second-longest decline, the three years from 1982 through 1984.

I guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free





America, the land
of the free and lawless. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlin halverson
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:56
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free







Land of the Free
Just some interesting factoids here: In
1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United States. Today, there are
literally thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the
counties have at least one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig
Roberts on America
and its prisons. I quote a small portion here: The US has a unique distinction: It is
the worlds greatest prison state. The US, the land of the
free, has the biggest prison population in the world and the highest rate
of prisoners per capita of all countries  including countries that
President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even China, with one party rule and a population that
is 4.5 times larger than the US
population, has 30% fewer total prisoners than the US. Chinas
per capita rate is a small fraction of the US rate. The US prison population per capita is three times
higher than axis of evil country Iran,
five times higher than Tanzania,
and seven times higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 142
Americans is in prison  and this does not include military prisons or
INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US
population grew by 21%, the number of state and federal inmates soared by
312%. 
http://www.truthontheweb.org /NwsClpz/051504.html

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

Izzy: I don't believe that punishment, though
necessary, ever changes hearts.Lance

- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: May 16, 2004 09:16
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml.
Serious crimes
reported to the police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, down 7
percent from the year before and by far the longest-running crime decline on
record, the FBI reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary figures for 1999
extended a trend begun in 1992 that is now almost three times longer than the
second-longest decline, the three years from 1982 through 1984.
I
guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J
Izzy

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
ShieldsFamilySent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free

America,
the land of the free and lawless.
Izzy

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Marlin
halversonSent: Saturday, May
15, 2004 9:56 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free

"Land of the
FreeJust some interesting factoids here:
In 1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United
States. Today, there are literally thousands.
In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the counties have at least
one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig Roberts on America and its prisons. I quote a
small portion here: "The US has a unique distinction: It is
the worlds greatest prison state. The US,
"the land of the free," has the biggest prison population in the world and the
highest rate of prisoners per capita of all countries including countries
that President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even
China, with one party rule
and a population that is 4.5 times larger than the US population, has 30% fewer total prisoners
than the US. Chinas per capita rate is a small fraction of
the US rate. The
US prison population per
capita is three times higher than "axis of evil" country Iran, five times higher than
Tanzania, and seven times
higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 142
Americans is in prison and this does not include military prisons or INS
jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US
population grew by 21%, the number of state and federal inmates soared by
312%." http://www.truthontheweb.org
/NwsClpz/051504.html

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free









Usually. I think that sometimes someone learns from
his mistakes. (Meanwhile, lock em up and throw away the key! J ) Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free







Izzy: I don't believe that punishment, though necessary,
ever changes hearts.Lance







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: May 16, 2004 09:16





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Land of the Free









http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml. Serious crimes reported to the
police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, down 7 percent from the
year before and by far the longest-running crime decline on record, the FBI
reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary figures for 1999 extended a trend
begun in 1992 that is now almost three times longer than the second-longest
decline, the three years from 1982 through 1984.

I guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free





America, the land
of the free and lawless. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin halverson
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:56
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free







Land of the Free
Just some interesting factoids here: In
1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United States. Today, there are
literally thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the
counties have at least one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig
Roberts on America
and its prisons. I quote a small portion here: The US has a unique distinction: It is
the worlds greatest prison state. The US, the land of the
free, has the biggest prison population in the world and the highest rate
of prisoners per capita of all countries  including countries that
President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even China, with one party rule and a population that
is 4.5 times larger than the US
population, has 30% fewer total prisoners than the US. Chinas
per capita rate is a small fraction of the US rate. The US prison population per capita is three times
higher than axis of evil country Iran,
five times higher than Tanzania,
and seven times higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 142
Americans is in prison  and this does not include military prisons or
INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US
population grew by 21%, the number of state and federal inmates soared by
312%. 
http://www.truthontheweb.org /NwsClpz/051504.html

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free

Izzy: smiley face?? Kidding?? Maybe attitude is 
tougher to "read" in print than I sometimes acknowledge.Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: May 16, 2004 10:11
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free

  Usually. I think that sometimes someone learns 
  from his mistakes. (Meanwhile, lock em up and throw away the key! J 
  ) Izzy

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:45 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free

  Izzy: I don't believe that 
  punishment, though necessary, ever changes 
  hearts.Lance

- Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: May 16, 
2004 09:16

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Land of the Free

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml. Serious crimes 
reported to the police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, down 
7 percent from the year before and by far the longest-running crime decline 
on record, the FBI reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary figures for 
1999 extended a trend begun in 1992 that is now almost three times longer 
than the second-longest decline, the three years from 1982 through 
1984.
I 
guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J 
Izzy

From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of 
ShieldsFamilySent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
Free

America, 
the land of the free and lawless. 
Izzy

From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Marlin 
halversonSent: Saturday, 
May 15, 2004 9:56 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
Free

"Land of the 
FreeJust some interesting factoids 
here: In 1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United 
States. Today, there are literally 
thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the counties 
have at least one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig Roberts on 
America and its prisons. I quote 
a small portion here: "The US has a unique distinction: It 
is the worlds greatest prison state. The US, 
"the land of the free," has the biggest prison population in the world and 
the highest rate of prisoners per capita of all countries  including 
countries that President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. 
Even China, with one 
party rule and a population that is 4.5 times larger than the 
US population, has 30% 
fewer total prisoners than the US. Chinas per capita rate is a small fraction 
of the US rate. The 
US prison population per 
capita is three times higher than "axis of evil" country Iran, five times higher than 
Tanzania, and seven times 
higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 
142 Americans is in prison  and this does not include military prisons or 
INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US 
population grew by 21%, the number of state and federal inmates soared by 
312%." http://www.truthontheweb.org 
/NwsClpz/051504.html

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free









Lance, No I am definitely not kidding. Anyone who is a threat to society (ie: thief,
rapist, etc.) should be behind bars as long as legally possible. Is that
contrary to your view??? However I do think that punishment can and does
sometimes bring about repentanceI know that the Lords judgments
in my life have had that effect.
Sometimes it makes a light bulb go on. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free







Izzy: smiley face?? Kidding?? Maybe attitude is tougher to
read in print than I sometimes acknowledge.Lance







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: May 16, 2004 10:11





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Land of the Free









Usually. I think that
sometimes someone learns from his mistakes. (Meanwhile, lock em up and
throw away the key! J ) Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free







Izzy: I don't believe that punishment, though necessary,
ever changes hearts.Lance







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: May 16, 2004 09:16





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Land of the Free









http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml. Serious crimes reported to the
police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, down 7 percent from the
year before and by far the longest-running crime decline on record, the FBI
reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary figures for 1999 extended a trend
begun in 1992 that is now almost three times longer than the second-longest
decline, the three years from 1982 through 1984.

I guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of
the Free





America, the land
of the free and lawless. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin halverson
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:56
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the
Free







Land of the Free
Just some interesting factoids here: In
1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United States. Today, there are
literally thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the
counties have at least one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig
Roberts on America
and its prisons. I quote a small portion here: The US has a unique distinction: It is
the worlds greatest prison state. The US, the land of the
free, has the biggest prison population in the world and the highest rate
of prisoners per capita of all countries  including countries that
President Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even China, with one party rule and a population that
is 4.5 times larger than the US
population, has 30% fewer total prisoners than the US. Chinas
per capita rate is a small fraction of the US rate. The US prison population per capita is three times
higher than axis of evil country Iran,
five times higher than Tanzania,
and seven times higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 142
Americans is in prison  and this does not include military prisons or
INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US
population grew by 21%, the number of state and federal inmates soared by
312%. 
http://www.truthontheweb.org /NwsClpz/051504.html

Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free




Izzy: No, its not. For some time now I've believed 
that God privileges the ear over the eye. Its the perceived tone that gave me 
pause, not the content of your post.
 Most of the judgment that comes my way has 
been "earned" through my conduct. What we actually believe is exhibited in the 
way we conduct ourselves in all contexts, seen or unseen.
 One huge drawback of a forum such as this is 
that we only get to hear what people say and, not see what they do over time. 
The latter reflects what we believe.
Lance


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: May 16, 2004 11:12
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free
  
  
  Lance, 
  No I am definitely not kidding. 
  Anyone who is a threat to society (ie: thief, rapist, etc.) should be 
  behind bars as long as legally possible. Is that contrary to your view??? 
  However I do think that punishment can and does sometimes bring about 
  repentanceI know that the Lords judgments in my life have had that 
  effect. Sometimes it makes a 
  light bulb go on. Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance 
  MuirSent: Sunday, May 16, 
  2004 8:38 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free
  
  
  Izzy: smiley face?? Kidding?? 
  Maybe attitude is tougher to "read" in print than I sometimes 
  acknowledge.Lance
  

- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: May 16, 
2004 10:11

    Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Land of the Free


Usually. I think that sometimes someone 
learns from his mistakes. (Meanwhile, lock em up and throw away the key! 
J 
) Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:45 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
Free


Izzy: I don't believe that 
punishment, though necessary, ever changes 
hearts.Lance

  
  - Original Message - 
  
  
  From: ShieldsFamily 
  
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  
  Sent: May 
  16, 2004 09:16
  
  Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Land of the Free
  
  
  http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/crim081.shtml. Serious crimes 
  reported to the police dropped for an eighth consecutive year in 1999, 
  down 7 percent from the year before and by far the longest-running crime 
  decline on record, the FBI reported yesterday. The bureau's preliminary 
  figures for 1999 extended a trend begun in 1992 that is now almost three 
  times longer than the second-longest decline, the three years from 1982 
  through 1984.
  I 
  guess throwing the bums into prison has begun to pay off. J 
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 6:58 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free
  
  America, 
  the land of the free and lawless. 
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlin 
  halversonSent: Saturday, 
  May 15, 2004 9:56 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Land of the 
  Free
  
  
  "Land of the 
  FreeJust some interesting factoids 
  here: In 1923 there were only 61 prisons in the entire United 
  States. Today, there are literally 
  thousands. In many states upto as much as 30--78 percent of the counties 
  have at least one prison. I read an article by Paul Craig Roberts on 
  America and its prisons. I 
  quote a small portion here: "The US has a unique distinction: It 
  is the worlds greatest prison state. The US, "the land of the free," has 
  the biggest prison population in the world and the highest rate of 
  prisoners per capita of all countries  including countries that President 
  Bush believes need liberating by US armed forces. Even China, with one party rule and a population 
  that is 4.5 times larger than the US population, has 30% fewer total 
  prisoners than the US. Chinas per capita rate is a small fraction 
  of the US rate. The 
  US prison population 
  per capita is three times higher than "axis of evil" country 
  Iran, five times higher 
  than Tanzania, and 
  seven times higher than a civilized European country like Germany. One out of every 
  142 Americans is in prison  and this does not include military prisons or 
  INS jails. ... Between 1980 and 2000, a period during which the US population grew by 21%, the 
  number

RE: [TruthTalk] Land of the Free