Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DAVEH: The point I'm trying to make (and find out why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1. Yet for some reason, he allowed sin to enter into the equation. Let me ask you, Judy.do you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then we all could have lived in 'paradise'? I assume you do. Then let me ask another related question...why did God prevent Adam/Eve from partaking of the fruit on the tree of life? jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming to an understanding this way, DAVEH: I realize that I will probably never understand it as you do, Judy. I believe (due to my LDS perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed your mind to perceive. jt: I don't think so Dave.Basically it is not a 'mind' thing. I am speaking of spiritual realities. God isSpirit and so Truth is "spiritual" To be a worshipper we must worship Him in spirit and Truth and the Bible is a spiritual book. So it does not depend on theology or mind. God looks at the heart. DAVEH: In my opinion, God does not do things without reason. In Biblical times, the reasons God did incomprehensible things were known as mysteries. IMHO, mysteries are what the gospel is supposed to explain. jt: There is the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity; I don't know what other mystery you could be referring to. Actually the secret things still belong to the Lord but what is revealed is for us and for our children ... also God still hides things from folk who think themselves wise and prudent and reveals them to babes... In Matt 13:13,14,15 Jesus tells his disciples that he speaks in parables to hide thingsrather than to reveal them although I have heard so many ppl say that Jesus used that kind of imagery to make it simple. Things are not always what they appear. DAVEH: The reasons for what he has done with regard to our existence and our testing far exceed the ability of mainstream religions to explain it. It's the old baby/milk/meat thing. There is little point in dumping more information into ones paradigm than what it can withstand. jt: If too much information is being bandied about it isn't coming from God and without the work of the Holy Spirit noone is able to come to Him. DAVEH:I believe that is why Christianity evolved as it did throughout the Bible times. The Hebrews had trouble staying focused on their "one God", so trying to dump the whole gospel plan in their lap would have only led to a lot of confusion. jt: They had hearts that led them astray and they presumed upon God, same as the majoritydo today. What did that Barna Poll say about Bible illiteracy and yet just about everyone will tell you they pray and believe in God. DAVEH: Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.at times, they couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth. jt: There are no 'mysteries' confusing those who have the Truth today - some are just blind and who knows if they will ever repent and come to the knowledge of truth.. In Noah's day the world was so wicked that only eight ppl were saved - and Israel were deceived into thinking they could have their sin (act like the nations around them) and have God too. Judgment might be a long time coming but it will surely come. Jesus said that we would have to believe first and then we would know regarding the doctrine, that is whether or not it is so I wrote: I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates. DAVEH: I'm not sure that makes senseWhy would that be necessary for a God who knows the outcome prior to the test? jt: It may not make sense to the 'carnal mind' but that's the way it is. He allowed false prophets to test Israel and He allows all kinds of things today. It is up to us to make the right choices, to choose the narrow road that leads to life. Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us who need to see that we miss the mark. DAVEH: Wouldn't it just be simpler if he tossed his faulty creations into the flaming pit without putting them through the testing phase? Or better yet, why not just NOT make 'defective' people? jt: It may be simpler but it wouldn't be love which is God's nature. He is not willing that any should perish and desires that all come to the knowledge of Truth. DAVEH: But not to the point where he eliminates any temptation to do otherwise. That
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
Dean writes: Judy, Mormons view the fall of Man as a good thing that allows them to work themselves to Godhood. Their offering to God is Cain's offering to God which was the works of his hands-same as Satan' way of using the fig leaves to cover one sinful nakedness in the sight of God-which God rejected for his covering which requires the shedding of blood-and uses those skins to cover the shame of man.The Mormon Priest even use the fig leaves as a unholy sacred object to be worn by their priests-We use them to swat flies outside their unholy temple DAVEH: Carrol...do you consider this behavior by anti-Mormon protesters to be a form of obnoxious mockery? # Dean writes: No DaveH-I do notconsider this to be Ob-nox-ious Mockery.But I do believe that we are using this behavior as mockery of an ungodly practice. Similar to the behavior of Elijah when he mocked the Prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18:27.I suggest that you read this passage.The questions the Mormons need to ask themselves is why would believers that live by the Bible come thousands of miles at their own expense (and often end up in jail)to mock their temple? because Satan used this to send /them their children to hell thus we dishonor it for the lie it is. --
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest contribution is in GREEN... Dean Moore wrote: Dean writes: Judy, Mormons view the fall of Man as a good thing that allows them to work themselves to Godhood. Their offering to God is Cain's offering to God which was the works of his hands-same as Satan' way of using the fig leaves to cover one sinful nakedness in the sight of God-which God rejected for his covering which requires the shedding of blood-and uses those skins to cover the shame of man.The Mormon Priest even use the fig leaves as a unholy sacred object to be worn by their priests-We use them to swat flies outside their unholy temple DAVEH: Carrol...do you consider this behavior by anti-Mormon protesters to be a form of obnoxious mockery? # Dean writes: No DaveH-I do not consider this to be Ob-nox-ious Mockery.But I do believe that we are using this behavior as mockery of an ungodly practice. Similar to the behavior of Elijah when he mocked the Prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18:27. DAVEH: I read it, and the following passages to get the context. There seems to be a distinct difference between Elijah's God and yours, Dean. According to the Bible, with the Lord's assistance Elijah successfully defeated the prophets of Baal. Lacking that divine assistance, I suppose making a public nuisance of oneself by repeated breast beating year after year would be an alternative adopted by those who assume something they don't have. I suggest that you read this passage. The questions the Mormons need to ask themselves is why would believers that live by the Bible come thousands of miles at their own expense (and often end up in jail) DAVEH: Really? What did they do to end up in the pokey? to mock their temple? DAVEH: Perhaps they are influenced by an unsavory spirit. because Satan used this to send /them their children to hell thus we dishonor it for the lie it is. -- -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
Carrolll Moore wrote: - Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11/28/2003 2:26:53 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin? DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>DAVEH: As I understand Protestant theology, God created Satan and knew what Satan would do. He also created Adam and Eve and knew what they were going to do. Unless God intended for Adam/Eve to 'fall', why do Protestants place them in a situation where he knew they would fall? Or better yet, why did God create Satan, knowing all the trouble he would ultimately cause? jt: Satan was originally created to be the covering cherub over God's throne and that worked until he became obsessed with his own beauty and decided that he was smarter than God. However, God made provision for this before the foundation of the world so He was two steps ahead. Dean writes: Judy, Mormons view the fall of Man as a good thing that allows them to work themselves to Godhood. Their offering to God is Cain's offering to God which was the works of his hands-same as Satan' way of using the fig leaves to cover one sinful nakedness in the sight of God-which God rejected for his covering which requires the shedding of blood-and uses those skins to cover the shame of man.The Mormon Priest even use the fig leaves as a unholy sacred object to be worn by their priests-We use them to swat flies outside their unholy temple DAVEH: Carrol...do you consider this behavior by anti-Mormon protesters to be a form of obnoxious mockery? because Satan used this to send /them their children to hell thus we dishonor it for the lie it is. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>DAVEH: As I understand Protestant theology, God created Satan and knew what Satan would do. He also created Adam and Eve and knew what they were going to do. Unless God intended for Adam/Eve to 'fall', why do Protestants place them in a situation where he knew they would fall? Or better yet, why did God create Satan, knowing all the trouble he would ultimately cause? jt: Satan was originally created to be the covering cherub over God's throne and that worked until he became obsessed with his own beauty and decided that he was smarter than God. However, God made provision for this before the foundation of the world so He was two steps ahead. DAVEH: From a Protestants viewpoint, wouldn't it have been better if he have been three steps ahead? Isn't a world without sin, suffering and pain a goal for which Christians strive? Could not God have provided such a safe environment in which his followers would be able to worship him without distractions or temptations? >From a Protestant's perspective, why would God not want such a situation for his children? dh: If God is all knowing, and all powerful then it would seem like either he made a mistake, or he intended that sin and failure be a part of our life. jt: Or He saw the end result as worth the risk/price. DAVEH: I think you are missing the point of my question, Judy. Being all knowing and powerful, why did he not simply bind Satan (I assume you believe he has the power to do so) and put an end to the misery and suffering many mortals experience. jt: In His wisdom He knew that to ensure DAVEH: ???..Do you mean to say that you don't think God would have known who would be faithful and who would not? Does he really have to "ensure" our loyalty? fidelity/faithfulness on the part of his creatures they would have to love Him as He loved them. I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates. DAVEH: I'm trying to find out why Protestants think that is necessary for a God to do who knows everything. IF he did NOT know everything, then it would seemingly make sense that he test everybody. But as I understand it, Protestants believe God knows who will pass and who will fail the test.is that not correct, Judy? but I don't find any good in sin, I just accept that it is a fact of life, that I was born with that kind of an inheritance. It took me a while to learn that Jesus had paid the price for me to be free from sin and reconciled to God because IMO generationally our thinking has become so skewed that today most protestants don't have a problem with what God calls sin. The fruit of sin is more sin, it's an ongoing cycle into decadence and destruction. DAVEH: I understand that, Judy. I'm trying to go a step further to find out what purpose God feels it serves for us to experience sin, misery and agony. jt: God has set a standard (His Word) and if we obey we are blessed, if we disobey we are cursed (see Deut 28,29) so the onus is on us and our children. God Himself wants to bless and is not willing that any should perish, He is much more merciful and long suffering than any man. dh: He had the power to prevent it in AE's day, and he could stop it now, but for some reason he has not. I'm trying to figure out what Protestants think that reason is. jt: He could have stopped it and bound the devil at the price of making us zombies, puppets, a creation under total and complete control. Something like Communism or the Nazis but this is totally against His nature and character. He wants to fellowship with those who are at peace with Him and not a bunch of rebels. Look at the situation with the rich young ruler who came to Christ. He was willing to keep all of God's Law and said he had done so from his youth. However, he lacked one thing in that he wasn't willing to give up the greed in his heart and so went away sorrowful and Jesus didn't chase him down. jt: As for David murdering Uriah. I know in our natural thinking we excuse him by saying he didn't actually do it; but God held him responsible in 1 Kings 15:5 we are told "David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." It took David a year and a visit from the prophet to repent but when he did his repentance was deep (see Psalm 51). DAVEH: Wel...you are going to drag me into this tangent, eh! That's OK..I'll just make a brief comment about it. IMHO, I do not equate "the matter of Uriah the Hittite" with cold blooded murder, as you implied. jt: It was planned in secret and David was counting on him being killed on the front lines to hide the fact that he had fathered Uriah's wifes child. How much more cold blooded
Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
- Original Message - From: Dave To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11/28/2003 2:26:53 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin? DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]DAVEH: As I understand Protestant theology, God created Satan and knew what Satan would do. He also created Adam and Eve and knew what they were going to do. Unless God intended for Adam/Eve to 'fall', why do Protestants place them in a situation where he knew they would fall? Or better yet, why did God create Satan, knowing all the trouble he would ultimately cause? jt: Satan was originally created to be the covering cherub over God's throne and that worked until he became obsessed with his own beauty and decided that he was smarter than God. However, God made provision for this before the foundation of the world so He was two steps ahead. Dean writes: Judy, Mormons view the fall of Man as a good thing that allows them to work themselves to Godhood. Their offering to God is Cain's offering to God which was the works of his hands-same asSatan' way of using the fig leaves to cover one sinful nakedness in the sight of God-which God rejected for his covering which requires the shedding of blood-and uses those skins to cover the shame of man.The Mormon Priest even use the fig leavesas a unholy sacred object to be worn by their priests-We use them to swat flies outside their unholy temple because Satan used this to send /them their children to hell thus we dishonor it for the lie it is.
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]DAVEH: As I understand Protestant theology, God created Satan and knew what Satan would do. He also created Adam and Eve and knew what they were going to do. Unless God intended for Adam/Eve to 'fall', why do Protestants place them in a situation where he knew they would fall? Or better yet, why did God create Satan, knowing all the trouble he would ultimately cause? jt: Satanwas originally created to be the covering cherub over God's throne and that worked until he became obsessed with his own beauty and decided that he was smarter than God.However, God made provision for this before the foundation of the world so He was two steps ahead. dh: If God is all knowing, and all powerful then it would seem like either he made a mistake, or he intended that sin and failure be a part of our life. jt: Or He saw the end result as worth the risk/price. DAVEH: I think you are missing the point of my question, Judy. Being all knowing and powerful, why did he not simply bind Satan (I assume you believe he has the power to do so) and put an end to the misery and suffering many mortals experience. jt: In His wisdom He knew that to ensure fidelity/faithfulness on the part of his creatures they would have to love Him as He loved them. I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates. dh: I think everybody agrees that he doesn't make mistakes, so why do Protestants think sin is good for us? jt: No God doesn't make mistakes and I don't know any Protestants who think sin is good for us, do you know some who actually think this way Dave? DAVEH: Apparently Terry does "If you did not know how evil Satan is, you would never have any way to comprehend how good God is." jt: I've heard that saying before but I don't believe it. I don't want to know how evil Satan is, the ground he had in me was bad enough and by God's grace and power it is being removed from him as my mind is renewed in Christ. dh: Yes, I know..Protestants don't believe sin is "good for us", but I don't know how else to word it. Apparently there is a 'good' purpose for sin...I'm just curious what value Protestants find in sin. jt: None that I can see, but it is there andgetting worsein our generation. However without holiness noone is going to see the Lord. So rather than value sin we shouldturn from it and embrace righteousness and holiness that is, if we are to be part of the Church Jesus is coming to claim. jt: I guess I am protestant because I'm not rcc DAVEH: Hmm...I find that to be an interesting comment... jt: The term protestant is not scriptural. It comes from the Reformation when Luther protested rcc apostasy. but I don't find any good in sin, I just accept that it is a fact of life, that I was born with that kind of an inheritance. It took me a while to learn that Jesus had paid the price for me to be free from sin and reconciled to God because IMO generationally our thinking has become so skewed that today most protestants don't have a problem with what God calls sin. The fruit of sin is more sin, it's an ongoing cycle into decadence and destruction. DAVEH: I understand that, Judy. I'm trying to go a step further to find out what purpose God feels it serves for us to experience sin, misery and agony. jt: God has set a standard (His Word) and if we obey we are blessed, if we disobey we are cursed (see Deut 28,29) so the onus is on us and our children. God Himself wants to bless and is not willing that any should perish, He is much more merciful and long suffering than any man. dh: He had the power to prevent it in AE's day, and he could stop it now, but for some reason he has not. I'm trying to figure out what Protestants think that reason is. jt: He could have stopped it and bound the devil at the price of making us zombies, puppets, a creation under total and complete control. Something like Communism or the Nazis but this is totally against His nature and character. He wants to fellowship with those who are at peace with Him and not a bunch of rebels.Look at the situation with the rich young ruler who came to Christ. He was willing to keep all of God's Law and said he had done so from his youth. However, he lacked one thing in that he wasn't willing to give up the greed in his heart and so went away sorrowful and Jesus didn't chase him down. jt: As for David murdering Uriah. I know in our natural thinking we excuse him by saying he didn't actually do it; but God held him responsible in 1 Kings 15:5 we are told "David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite."
