DAVEH: My latest comments are in
GREEN.......
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: The point I'm trying to make (and find out
why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the
world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1. Yet for some reason,
he allowed sin to enter into the equation. Let me ask you, Judy.....do
you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then
we all could have lived in 'paradise'? I assume you do. Then let
me ask another related question.......why did God prevent Adam/Eve from
partaking of the fruit on the tree of life?
jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and
make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming
to an understanding this way,
DAVEH: I realize that I will
probably never understand it as you do, Judy. I believe (due to my LDS
perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed
your mind to perceive.
jt: I don't think so Dave. Basically
it is not a 'mind' thing. I am speaking of spiritual realities. God
is Spirit and so Truth is "spiritual" To be a worshipper we must
worship Him in spirit and Truth and the Bible is a spiritual book. So it does
not depend on theology or mind. God looks at the heart.
DAVEH: In my opinion, God does not do
things without reason. In Biblical times, the reasons God did
incomprehensible things were known as mysteries. IMHO, mysteries are what
the gospel is supposed to explain.
jt: There is the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity; I don't
know what other mystery you could be referring to. Actually the secret things
still belong to the Lord but what is revealed is for us and for our children ...
also God still hides things from folk who think themselves wise and prudent and
reveals them to babes... In Matt 13:13,14,15 Jesus tells his disciples
that he speaks in parables to hide things rather than to reveal them
although I have heard so many ppl say that Jesus used that kind of imagery to
make it simple. Things are not always what they appear.
DAVEH: The reasons for what he has
done with regard to our existence and our testing far exceed the ability of
mainstream religions to explain it. It's the old baby/milk/meat
thing. There is little point in dumping more information into ones
paradigm than what it can withstand.
jt: If too much information is being bandied
about it isn't coming from God and without the work of the Holy Spirit noone is
able to come to Him.
DAVEH: I believe that is why
Christianity evolved as it did throughout the Bible times. The Hebrews had
trouble staying focused on their "one God", so trying to dump the whole gospel
plan in their lap would have only led to a lot of
confusion.
jt: They had hearts that led them astray and
they presumed upon God, same as the majority do today. What did that Barna
Poll say about Bible illiteracy and yet just about everyone will tell you they
pray and believe in God.
DAVEH: Their religion had to develop a
little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.....at times, they
couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the
more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who
have the gospel truth.
jt: There are no 'mysteries' confusing those who have the Truth today -
some are just blind and who knows if they will ever repent and come to the
knowledge of truth.. In Noah's day the world was so wicked that only eight ppl
were saved - and Israel were deceived into thinking they could have their sin
(act like the nations around them) and have God too. Judgment might be a
long time coming but it will surely come. Jesus said that we would have to
believe first and then we would know regarding the doctrine, that is whether or
not it is so.... I wrote: I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant
Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test
them. God tests everything He creates.
DAVEH: I'm not sure that makes sense....Why would
that be necessary for a God who knows the outcome prior to the test?
jt: It may not make sense to the 'carnal mind' but that's the way it
is. He allowed false prophets to test Israel and He allows all kinds of
things today. It is up to us to make the right choices, to choose the
narrow road that leads to life. Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us
who need to see that we miss the mark.
DAVEH: Wouldn't it just be simpler if he tossed
his faulty creations into the flaming pit without putting them through the
testing phase? Or better yet, why not just NOT make 'defective'
people?
jt: It may be simpler but it wouldn't be love which is God's nature. He is
not willing that any should perish and desires that all come to the knowledge
of Truth.
DAVEH: But not to the point where
he eliminates any temptation to do otherwise. That alone should make one
wonder what reason there be for opposition.
jt: He has made a 'way of escape' for those who seek Him with their whole
heart and are willing to obey Him. The temptations do not come from Him. I know
Mormonism negates a personal adversary but that doesn't make him any less real
and Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send strong
delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the lie.
DAVEH: That almost sounds pervese.
Would a parent be considered 'good' if they were to continually put
temptations in front of their children?
jt: God can not be tempted with evil, neither does He
tempt any man.
DAVEH: That seems to contradict
what you said above, "God Himself will send strong delusion to
those who do not love the Truth" Judy, unless
I don't understand what you are trying to convey.
jt: I don't believe you do Dave, there is a difference. Scripture
teaches that we are tempted when we are led astray by our own lust and it is not
God who does the tempting. God is Spirit - Satan is spirit - man is
spirit. We need spiritual discernment and we must try the spirits to see
whether they are of God. Something that has been lost in the evangelical
world.
We are tempted when we are drawn
aside after our own lust.
DAVEH: Do you think that is why Eve
disobeyed......for lust?
jt: She was deceived - and basically yes. What she was offered
appealed to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride
of life ie: she saw it was "good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to
make one wise" (Genesis 3:6). God was already providing for them and they
had His Wisdom but it wasn't enough... so God gave them over to their ungodly
desires and He will do the same today because He is a God who does not
change.
Anyone who wants to can seek after
and know the truth. Problem is many do not want to and we will be
responsible for our choices in life.
DAVEH: Normally, parents try to shield their children
from the bad things in the world. Yet you are making it sound like God
is going to extremes to 'encourage' his children to fail.
jt: At some point parents must allow their children to
sink or swim.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhhhh........again, for
what purpose? Do you think there may be a relation between why parents let
their kids fail and why God does similar? What I have trouble
understanding is why a lot of Protestants think God is going to punitively
torture his children who fail to make the grade, so to speak. Would you
purposefully torture your children if one of them failed to obey you?
jt: You are not discerning the difference
between good and evil DaveH. Your thinking is along Greek lines. I was just
reading last night how Hebrew thought goes from God to life and Greek is the
reverse, it goes from life to God.. Bottom line is - there is good and evil out
there. The scriptures were written for an example to us so that we could learn
not to make the same mistakes and teach our children. I'm not about to judge God
or try to be smarter than Him. He sets the standard - I say "Yes,
Sir!"
DAVEH: I can't imagine any 'normal'
parent doing to their children what they perceive God will do to us if we fail
to accept/believe his Son. And.....that applies even to those who never
have the chance to hear his Son's name, let alone hear the gospel message.
To me, that is very peculiar and 'unChristian'.
jt: God created the world and yes He created all men but He does not
consider children of iniquity 'His children' - the fatherhood of God and
brotherhood of all mankind idea comes from Freemasonry rather than from
Christianity. To be a child of God one must be found "in Christ" and those who
are in Christ know the difference. They might fall seven times a day but
they will get up, repent, and go on.
DAVEH: This makes me think that
Protestants believe God enjoys punitively punishing his creations by torturing
them in the lake of fire. (We've had a few discussions about this prior
to your joining TT, Judy.)
jt: I have no idea what you've heard and shudder to think in light of what
has recently transpired with regard to street preaching in SLC.
DAVEH: Yes.....I have heard a lot
that struck me as pretty 'dumb'. Maybe that is unfair, because I suspect
you too have some of those beliefs that I find incredulous. (They seem to
be the tap root of Christianity, both Protestant and RCC.)
jt: I would not claim either 'protestant or
rcc' so if they are the basis for your judgment then we are eons
apart.
DAVEH: It boils down to CRY (Jesus) or
FRY, if I can be blunt about it. I brought up this topic a couple years
ago when somebody left a "THE BURNING HELL" tract on the window of my car one
night at a restaurant. I keep it right above my computer, and just took
another peek at it. Anyway......I found that pamphlet to be rather curious. To me, it
doesn't sound like the way the Lord would try to persuade his sheep to follow
him. It seemed more like a pretty gruesome scare tactic by somebody who
lacks the love of Christ. Naturally, not many TTers agreed with
me!
jt: I don't know how anyone could be that descriptive. We do have the
imagery in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and the brother who wanted to
go back and warn his brothers not to come to that place along with books written
by medical doctors about ppl who had near death experiences and went to the
wrong place - and this made believers out of them in a hurry. Regarding street
preaching I would have to agree with your perspective toward such antics.
DAVEH: Thank you. I
appreciate you saying that. I just hope you don't receive too much ill
will for making such a statement in agreement with an old Mormon
boy. Simply posting respectful comments on TT in reply to Mormons
can bring unfavorable comments from some. Speaking your heart as you just
did may bring harsh criticism. I hope not though.
jt: I've already been through some of that but I am not angry with
people and my battle is not with flesh and blood. Actually we are having a
Mormon to our house for Christmas dinner. Our oldest girl met him at the
Polynesian Culture Center in Hawaii and they have been communicating via email
since then. I keep hearing (from the street preachers) about Jesus in
the temple and Elijah on Mount Carmel but these people (today) are not walking
in the Spirit and power of Jesus or Elijah. I wrote: Do you really find
Mormonism logical?
DAVEH: Very much so. That is why I am so
curious about Protestant theology, as I don't see a logical pattern in
it. Yet so many folks seem to think it is logical, so I'm trying to find
out why they believe as they do so I can understand how they perceive its
logical progression.
jt: I'm not surprised to hear that because the deceiver has been busy for
the past 2,000 and there are more than 400 different doctrines all claiming to
be 'Truth'
- and this is why it is imperitive for those desiring
to know and serve the Lord to understand the scriptures for themselves.
I've been doing our families genealogy and used to visit the local FHC so I
have met a lot of very nice Mormon ppl but I don't find the belief system
logical by any stretch
DAVEH: Have you studied it from our perspective? If you've
only heard it from the Protestant perspective, you are probably right......it
wouldn't sound logical.
jt: because the writings of Joseph Smith et al
conflict with the clear Word of Truth which is scripture.
DAVEH: Many times have I heard that on
TT. I will repeat myself......I do not believe it contradicts
Scripture. It only contradicts what you think (or have been taught)
Scripture says. (Hmmmmm......I think I've just answered a comment
from a previous post!)
jt: Have you thought about this? At this point I
don't depend on anything I have been taught by others. I read the scriptures
for myself and God gives me understanding by His Spirit.
DAVEH: I don't see that conflict at all.
What it does conflict with is the common perception many Protestants think
about what the Lord says in the Bible. Let me give you an example.
JS taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. All the Protestants
I've discussed this with say that it is not. However, there were
Christians in Biblcal times that believed it was a necessity, as evidenced by
1Cor 15:29. Yet Protestants seem to ignore this passage. When I
mention it on TT, some go to extremes to suggest that those Primitive
Christians who were baptizing for the dead were heretical and wrong to do
so. I find that rather curious, considering Paul saw fit not to
criticize their actions.
jt: Paul did not baptize for the dead and neither did any other apostle
that I am aware of
DAVEH: Nobody has made that claim.
and only the rcc place such an emphasis on baptism.
They claim that one can be saved by baptism into their system. The scriptures
actually teach baptism is a sign confirming the spiritual work of grace
that has been done already in the person's heart.
DAVEH: That's part of it......But
not the whole story. The Bible teaches much more, but it has been
suppressed to make a 'simpler' theology work for many more people. While
baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without baptism, one
cannot be saved. (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5)
jt: Now Dave you are doing the same as TPW, that is, telling me what the
scriptures teach when the scriptures are not the basis for your belief.
God is not trying to make anything simpler for anybody. He says "I am the
Lord, I change not" but we as believers are to love ppl and encourage them to
repent and to seek Him with their whole heart. He deals with ppl as
individuals. The thief who was forgiven on the cross went to Paradise without
baptism.
So Judy, to answer your last
question........YES, I've thought about it a lot. Much of what JS
taught does seem logical, while much of what I hear from Protestants seems
illogical. But of course, I am highly biased.
jt: At 8yrs old you were not ready to evaluate and so you apparently
accepted what you were taught as
truth.
DAVEH: At 8 I didn't know much about theology at all, despite
having attended a Protestant church in my youth.
However, the incident JS had with the angel
Moroni does not stand the test
DAVEH: ??? I'm not
quite sure what instance you are referring to, but none the less......I don't
know why angels appearing to people is a problem for you or anybody else.
It happened Biblically, did it not? If so, why cannot it happen in our
time?
Moved to another subject line.... Judy
