Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Speaking for myself (Lance) I often find it difficult to believe (allowing for my last post to you) that you truly don't understand as much as you indicate through your questions. You reflect a level of 'puzzlement' that mystifies. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 12:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Jonathan, Good to hear from you my friend. I am not taking the time to research your references. However I think I understand what you are saying. I think we are body/soul/spirit just as God as Father/Son/HolySpirit. Three in one. Not three different elements. What is your understanding, if there is no such thing as soul or spirit? Izzy PS Why do you always have to answer for Lance? Cat got his tongue? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan HughesSent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:44 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Oh noJohn is using the essence word now! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? In a message dated 8/20/2004 6:29:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: The mere citation is no good unless you can prove what you are saying is so by the rest of scripture and you have never done this. The scriptures do not teach that all humanity is in Christ just by virtue of being human. Lance has spoken of universality verses univeralism. The difference between the two must be a response of some sort. If we are all born with the same potential as Adam at the time of his creation (and I have been given absolutely no scripture that says he is anything but like me), then, from the very beginning, even before the so called fall, God in Christ was going to be a part of the earth-to-heaven story. That was always the case. Christ is not the last minute solution to a problem that Adam created and passed on to all humanity. What we do here on earth qualifies and prepares us for the next life. What Christ did on the cross allows us to fall short of God's glorious essence (Ro 3:23) as we prepare to pass on to this life God has planned for us from the beginning --- and that life is going to be different from the green grass, tree bark and bad fruit of the Garden of Eden. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Lance, You are as easy to understand as G. I guess that makes me dense. You wrote below Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Was that actually supposed to EXPLAIN anything to me? I asked how you can explain away scriptural references to soul and spirit, and you answer Philosophical? And I mystify? You and G must be twins. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 3:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Speaking for myself (Lance) I often find it difficult to believe (allowing for my last post to you) that you truly don't understand as much as you indicate through your questions. You reflect a level of 'puzzlement' that mystifies. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 12:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Jonathan, Good to hear from you my friend. I am not taking the time to research your references. However I think I understand what you are saying. I think we are body/soul/spirit just as God as Father/Son/HolySpirit. Three in one. Not three different elements. What is your understanding, if there is no such thing as soul or spirit? Izzy PS Why do you always have to answer for Lance? Cat got his tongue? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
(the dark side encroaches.) Do you think Sunshine Smithson has prayed for discernment in his readings? Iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Astute observation Izzy - what meaneth this? jt Oh noJohn is using the essence word now! Izzy jt: The mere citation is no good unless you can prove what you are saying is so by the rest of scripture and you have never done this. The scriptures do not teach that all humanity is in Christ just by virtue of being human. Lance has spoken of universality verses univeralism. The difference between the two must be a response of some sort. If we are all born with the same potential as Adam at the time of his creation (and I have been given absolutely no scripture that says he is anything but like me), then, from the very beginning, even before the so called fall, God in Christ was going to be a part of the earth-to-heaven story. That was always the case. Christ is not the last minute solution to a problem that Adam created and passed on to all humanity. What we do here on earth qualifies and prepares us for the next life. What Christ did on the cross allows us to fall short of God's glorious essence (Ro 3:23) as we prepare to pass on to this life God has planned for us from the beginning --- and that life is going to be different from the green grass, tree bark and bad fruit of the Garden of Eden. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Iz:Be a good 'wifey' and, ask your husband. I think you said he had an education eh? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 21, 2004 14:23 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, You are as easy to understand as G. I guess that makes me dense. You wrote below Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Was that actually supposed to EXPLAIN anything to me? I asked how you can explain away scriptural references to soul and spirit, and you answer Philosophical? And I mystify? You and G must be twins. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 3:47 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Speaking for myself (Lance) I often find it difficult to believe (allowing for my last post to you) that you truly don't understand as much as you indicate through your questions. You reflect a level of 'puzzlement' that mystifies. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 12:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Jonathan, Good to hear from you my friend. I am not taking the time to research your references. However I think I understand what you are saying. I think we are body/soul/spirit just as God as Father/Son/HolySpirit. Three in one. Not three different elements. What is your understanding, if there is no such thing as soul or spirit? Izzy PS Why do you always have to answer for Lance? Cat got his tongue? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan HughesSent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:44 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
In a message dated 8/21/2004 10:50:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh noJohn is using the essence word now! Izzy It is also the name of my perfume. Ms Smithson -- out !!
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:46:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (the dark side encroaches.) Do you think Sunshine Smithson has prayed for discernment in his readings? Iz Discernment is my middle name John D Smithson
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Herein lies an opportunity for: 1. agreement 2. change of mind (Judy), 3. clarification (Linda) - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 07:44 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Jt:IFF (if and only if) your interpretation of the relevant scriptures is incorrect just how might one demonstrate this to you? The mere citation of them won't help as you believeyour understanding to be that of the writer and, of God. IFF the majority of TT participants disagreed with you that wouldn't carry any weight with you. IFF the majority of the believe world disagreed with you I assume that that wouldn't matter to you either (?) Judy, this is the dilemma I outlined to you the other day. We're wrong and, you're right. You profess to be open to correction but.. Would you be prepared to engage in a 'thought experiment'? Assume that we're right and you're wrong on this matter. Would you outline the practical implications both for yourself and, for others. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 20, 2004 08:40 Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Agreement with what Lance? Jonathan's concepts about Greek philosophy? The message below does not validate anything from a scriptural POV, in fact, there is not even one validreference - just vague allusions to same. Change the mind from what to what? And for what reason? Because Jonathan or his Greek philosophy professor say so? jt From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Herein lies an opportunity for: 1. agreement 2. change of mind (Judy), 3. clarification (Linda) From: Jonathan Hughes Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Jonathan, Good to hear from you my friend. I am not taking the time to research your references. However I think I understand what you are saying. I think we are body/soul/spirit just as God as Father/Son/HolySpirit. Three in one. Not three different elements. What is your understanding, if there is no such thing as soul or spirit? Izzy PS Why do you always have to answer for Lance? Cat got his tongue? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Hi Izzy, Let me jump in here. One thing we always have to be careful of is our blind acceptance of some of our definitions. The soul, or spirit is one of these. When the New Testament writers were writing the NT they had two choices for describing the spiritual: they could either make up new names or use old names, already commonly accepted but with a spin that would set them apart. They chose the second. The concept of soul or spirit that you and Judy have comes completely from Greek philosophy. Whenever you see the word soul or spirit in the Bible you automatically use a skewed definition that is clearly opposite from actual scripture. It is not rooted in scripture at all. In other words, just because Judy gives a verse that uses the word soul or spirit does not in any way prove that they are actual entities separated from the rest of who we are. This is completely opposite of the Hebrew revelation from the Old Testament and leads one into Gnosticism as we can easily see in Judys writings (Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821080.html). We must always be on the lookout for dualisms that are not present. Please see the links below for some more detailed information and word studies. http://www.cresourcei.org/bodysoul.html http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Is Judy saying that one scripture is not as good as two or more scripture? John In a message dated 8/20/2004 6:29:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jt:IFF (if and only if) your interpretation of the relevant scriptures is incorrect just how might one demonstrate this to you? jt: A good start might be to post what you believe to be "the relevant scriptures" Truth should be validated by two or more witnesses so you would need to find those in scripture also. IOW you would need to prove your point by showing the same precept you are promoting from several places. The mere citation of them won't help as you believe your understanding to be that of the writer and, of God. IFF the majority of TT participants disagreed with you that wouldn't carry any weight with you. IFF the majority of the believe world disagreed with you I assume that that wouldn't matter to you either (?) jt: The mere citation is no good unless you can prove what you are saying is so by the rest of scripture and you have never done this. The scriptures do not teach that "all humanity" is in Christ just by virtue of being human. Judy, this is the dilemma I outlined to you the other day. We're wrong and, you're right. You profess to be open to correction but.. jt: Who is "WE"? and Jonathan? At this point John seems to be tottering between two opinions. Would you be prepared to engage in a 'thought experiment'? Assume that we're right and you're wrong on this matter. Would you outline the practical implications both for yourself and, for others. What do you mean by "practical implications Lance?" Practical implications of what? jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
In a message dated 8/20/2004 6:29:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: The mere citation is no good unless you can prove what you are saying is so by the rest of scripture and you have never done this. The scriptures do not teach that "all humanity" is in Christ just by virtue of being human. Lance has spoken of universality verses univeralism. The difference between the two must be a response of some sort. If we are all born with the same potential as Adam at the time of his creation (and I have been given absolutely no scripture that says he is anything but like me), then, from the very beginning, even before the so called "fall," God in Christ was going to be a part of the earth-to-heaven story. That was always the case. Christ is not the last minute solution to a problem that Adam created and passed on to all humanity. What we do here on earth qualifies and prepares us for the next life. What Christ did on the cross allows us to fall short of God's glorious essence (Ro 3:23) as we prepare to pass on to this life God has planned for us from the beginning --- and that life is going to be different from the green grass, tree bark and bad fruit of the Garden of Eden. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Jt:You acknowledged both your allegiance to and dependence upon both some time back. They've obviously mentored you extensively. You don't have to get defensive about it. Most have been taught the 'doctrines of men' by someone(s). These are yours. I do believe you to be occasionally well-intentioned. On matters personal you always are. On matters interpretive and exegetical; you're skewed by your teachers. I'm most attentive when you speak of Jenna and of your daughters. These matters are both personal and universal.We're all dealing with some things akin to these. I'm least attentive to Judy the 'teacher' To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 19, 2004 07:08 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, The really "sad" thing is that you refuse to deal with Truth. You must continually try to categorize, card file, etc. Why don't we agree to deal with scripture exclusively - leaving off what everyone says. When have I ever quoted Schofield or Dake and when have you ever taken me to task for same. You throw out these generalized criticisms that are totally irrelevant unless you can correct byscripture rather than inadvertently according toTFT. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Jt:Your efforts and energy are to be commended, even by me (discount that by 100% for, after all it's just me). Your results exemplify what I consider to be one of the most frequent yet vacuous statements I encounter namely:If you'll just show me Scripture for that point of view...If the Scripture you show me counters (whatever) then I'll..etc. In the months I've been reading your responses to virtually everyone on TT I've never seen you change (when shown Scripture by anyone). Of course, this is because they've all been wrong while you, Judy (along with your mentors) have been correctamundo. What an absolutely great space to occupy! My other point was in no sense intended to be patronizing. I do believe that you are a great mom and grandmom. To have been 'great' as these is better than to have been 'right' so, don't give it a second thought. Just walk around me and engage the others. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 19, 2004 08:21 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jt:You acknowledged both your allegiance to and dependence upon both some time back. They've obviously mentored you extensively. Hey if you want to put me in someone's mentoring box - there have been a long, long,list. I like to read and I listen to tapes also so I've about run the gamut in 30yrs (from 1975 until now). You either don't listen Lance or you think what I have to say is of no account because I have said over and over and over again on this list that the one lesson I have learned in my walk with Christ has beento put everything I read or hear taught on a BIG SHELF until the Holy Spirit shows it to me in God's Word. Get that??? Shows it to ME. Not Schofield, and not Dake. ME...judyt You don't have to get defensive about it. Most have been taught the 'doctrines of men' by someone(s). These are yours. I find it a bit of an affront to have to say the same thing over and over and have you act like I never said it the first time Lance. This is the kind of treatment that fuelled the "woman's movement" I do believe you to be occasionally well-intentioned. On matters personal you always are... How patronizing Lance ... On matters interpretive and exegetical; you're skewed by your teachers. I have but one "teacher" who is the Spirit of Truth and when I do miss it He gets me straight - but apparently you do not accept this because "my truth is different from your truth" Am I right??? I'm most attentive when you speak of Jenna and of your daughters. These matters are both personal and universal. Personal and universal??? We're all dealing with some things akin to these...I'm least attentive to Judy the 'teacher' Yes, we all come from the same root and so must deal with some of the same fruit. I find it sad that you discount so much but then that is not my problem and apparently I am not part of the answer At least not an answer you would be willing to receive. jt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 19, 2004 07:08 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, The really "sad" thing is that you refuse to deal with Truth. You must continually try to categorize, card file, etc. Why don't we agree to deal with scripture exclusively - leaving off what everyone says. When have I ever quoted Schofield or Dake and when have you ever taken me to task for same. You throw out these generalized criticisms that are totally irrelevant unless you can correct byscripture rather than inadvertently according toTFT. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Lance, Im not following your logic. Let me spell it out, since you have not. Do you consider a soul to be a philosophy? Do you consider a spirit to be a poor exegesis? What are you saying they are? And how do you explain away the scriptural references to them? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Linda:I do for the reasons cited:soul (philsophical), spirit (poor exegesis). Judy's is a common misapprehension on both. Judy does some great research. Judy quotes scripture extensively in an attempt to support teachings gleaned from Dake Scofield (sadly). But, I do believe her to be well-intentioned (occasionally). - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 18, 2004 17:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, I am curious to know if you still believe that Human Beings do not have either a soul or a spirit, in spite of Judys Biblical evidence to the contrary. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit?
Jt:Excluding Bill, who no longer posts on TT, my examples would be drawn from David (who also no longer posts on TT), the sainted John Smithson, and Jonathan (who rarely posts on TT). Your (non) responses to their 'Scriptures" make my point. However, I do get a kick (?) from your occasionally barbed tongue (keyboard?) as you invariably wrestle (figuratively of course) each to the ground 'til they raise the flag of surrender (exhaustion?). Keep it up, Judy. I always look forward to your 'engagements'. How can one who has the Sword of the Spirit (the Word of God) ever lose to those who only and ever draw unceasingly on the puny 'doctrines of men' (philosophers, theologians and the like)? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 19, 2004 08:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jt:Your efforts and energy are to be commended, even by me (discount that by 100% for, after all it's just me). Your results exemplify what I consider to be one of the most frequent yet vacuous statements I encounter namely:If you'll just show me Scripture for that point of view...If the Scripture you show me counters (whatever) then I'll..etc. This is not my result Lance- it is a requirement if you want to challenge what I am saying. One which you personally have never bothered with. In the months I've been reading your responses to virtually everyone on TT I've never seen you change (when shown Scripture by anyone). Meaning who, Bill?A lot of people post scriptures but they are not necessarily challenging somethingsaid by me. The biggest challenge I have had so far is the idea that Jesus was from the first Adam's bloodline.. and no I didn't change because this can not be proven to be so. It is in error. Of course, this is because they've all been wrong while you, Judy (along with your mentors) have been correctamundo. What an absolutely great space to occupy! I didn't write the scriptures and I refuse towrest them to my own destruction or anyone elses. Are you aware that false doctrine can bend a person's conscience and cause their blood to be on your hands if you promote it in the name of Christ? My other point was in no sense intended to be patronizing. I do believe that you are a great mom and grandmom. To have been 'great' as these is better than to have been 'right' so, don't give it a second thought. Just walk around me and engage the others. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jt:You acknowledged both your allegiance to and dependence upon both some time back. They've obviously mentored you extensively. Hey if you want to put me in someone's mentoring box - there have been a long, long,list. I like to read and I listen to tapes also so I've about run the gamut in 30yrs (from 1975 until now). You either don't listen Lance or you think what I have to say is of no account because I have said over and over and over again on this list that the one lesson I have learned in my walk with Christ has beento put everything I read or hear taught on a BIG SHELF until the Holy Spirit shows it to me in God's Word. Get that??? Shows it to ME. Not Schofield, and not Dake. ME...judyt You don't have to get defensive about it. Most have been taught the 'doctrines of men' by someone(s). These are yours. I find it a bit of an affront to have to say the same thing over and over and have you act like I never said it the first time Lance. This is the kind of treatment that fuelled the "woman's movement" I do believe you to be occasionally well-intentioned. On matters personal you always are... How patronizing Lance ... On matters interpretive and exegetical; you're skewed by your teachers. I have but one "teacher" who is the Spirit of Truth and when I do miss it He gets me straight - but apparently you do not accept this because "my truth is different from your truth" Am I right??? I'm most attentive when you speak of Jenna and of your daughters. These matters are both personal and universal. Personal and universal??? We're all dealing with some things akin to these...I'm least attentive to Judy the 'teacher' Yes, we all come from the same root and so must deal with some of the same fruit. I find it sad that you discount so much but then that is not my problem and apparently I am not part of the answer At least not an answer you would be willing to receive. jt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 19, 2004 07:08 Subject: [TruthTalk] Soul Spirit? Lance, The really "sad" thing is that
