Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
G and B -- sorry about what is happening to Denver, at this moment of time. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] lol -- this is partly why I will never be considered a theologian -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow, she is an udder waste. :>) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
lol -- this is partly why I will never be considered a theologian -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow, she is an udder waste. :>) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow, she is an udder waste. :>) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ shared in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:57:20 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is really sad that Bill says I can't be saved unless I accept his kind of orthodoxy. No, Bill is using the Bible to correct you, and to exhort you to change your mind, Judy. You don't have understanding of the Bible Bill. You are using Words to make everything biological completely missing the main point. Sin is a spiritual issue with a biological ripple effect generationally. God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Sin/righteousness are not biological issues. Your doctrine of generaltional curse says otherwise. Not so JD, generational curses are also spiritual in nature. God's law in fact is both spiritual and holy. It is sin that makes us want to make everything to look and act just like us. You have said that Adam and Eve changed - in nature and became a different (fallen) being. That is saying that the "fall" effected their biology, Judy. Why is this so difficult? Their biology was affected - yes because death entered paradise and things were forever changed. Quite frankly THE ONLY PEOPLE I have problems understanding -- and I mean the only people _ are you and DM. You are looking for a way out every time you say anything. Just say it -- whatever it is -- and stick to your guns instead of telling the rest of us , over and over again, that we do not understand you. You don't show any evidence of the above claim in your responses - to me anyway. I can't speak for DM We do understand you -- we just cannot predict your manner of defense. Your theology develops in "likeness" to the workings of a pinball machine, bouncing from one obstacle to the next with no one ever knowing where you are going. Is is completely unpredictable. No one elses is. Why? Do answer - just think about it. Probably yours is predictable because someone has it outlined in a big book somewhere. You want to spiritualize the Seed doctrine, when the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is the Seed of David according to flesh. Sperma isn't the only kind of seed discussed in scripture Bill and I am not taking anything out of context in order to "spiritualize" it. The order is first the natural and then the spiritual. Adam/David are the natural. Jesus is the Promise which is spiritual. The first Adam was a living soul. The second Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Are you saying that Jesus did not come the actual seed of David? If your "spiritual seed" is not your "natural seed," we have yet another nuance that is uniquely JudyTaylor. Not necessarily a bad thing, by the way Not Judy Taylor JD. It is Jesus. Read Matt 22:42-46; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42. Your doctrine is that of the scribes and pharisees JD. Again, is Jesus biologically related to those named in the genealogies or not? I say yes. Tell me why this is so important to you JD? Islam has all kinds of evil going on between those who claim to be able to trace their genealogy back to the person of Mohammad. Genealogies are not given in scripture for the same reasons. It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. And if it is according to the flesh that Christ was born, and this of David's seed, then what flesh do you think John is speaking of when he ascribes the spirit of antichrist to those who deny it? I am not making a bigger deal of this than I ought, Judy. I want you to have every opportunity to know and understand the error of your doctrine, because, believe it or not, it does make a difference how you answer the question: "Who do you say that I am?" I don't now and never have denied that Jesus was given and walked about in a flesh body Bill. What I do deny is that is was a SINFUL AND FALLEN flesh body exactly and in every way like those He was sent to redeem. What if I said that the fall of man took "sin " from the mind and thoughts of Satan and made it an aspect of our very nature? To be born with this "sinful" nature is not the problem. To allow that nature to rule one's life is. Christ was born with this same nature - as a result, He is temptable. His holiness or perceived unholiness (due to the existe
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man
I believe that He defeated sin in his person by the same powers available to me as I walk in the Spirit. He was taught the ways of life (Acts 2:28). He was made like me in every respect. He experienced temptation and even death . that death which brings Him to an end as a result of sin. But because He was truly innocent, death could not lay hold of His demise. cd: I think that you're usage of tempting is wrong JD. Tempting is used as to test or prove as well and to face/deal with temptations as you are using the term-these are completely different. Christ wasn't struggling with lust of the flesh,the pride of life,or that which is pleasing to the eye-no not at all. He was simple tested as all Christians are tested. God will not lead us into sin-that is Satan's doing-but he will tempt us(try,test). Satan is the god of this world who controls the powers and principalities which is the laws and governments of this world that is why in the last day all nations will surround Israel to destory her.We gave Satan that authority in the garden and we are still on his truff-till Christ comes and then he is chained for 1000 yrs. Webster Dictionary: Tempt: 5. In Scripture, to try; to prove; to put to trial for proof. God did tempt Abraham. Gen 22. Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God. Deu 6. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:35:17 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is really sad that Bill says I can't be saved unless I accept his kind of orthodoxy. No, Bill is using the Bible to correct you, and to exhort you to change your mind, Judy. You don't have understanding of the Bible Bill. You are using Words to make everything biological completely missing the main point. Sin is a spiritual issue with a biological ripple effect generationally. God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Sin/righteousness are not a biological issues. Your doctrine of generaltional curse says otherwise. Not so JD, generational curses are also spiritual in nature. God's law in fact is both spiritual and holy. It is sin that makes us want to make everything to look like us. You have said that Adam and Eve changed - in nature and became a different (fallen) being. That is saying that the "fall" effected their biology, Judy. Why is this so difficult? Quite frankly THE ONLY PEOPLE I have problems understanding -- and I mean the only people _ are you and DM. You are looking for a way out every time you say anything. Just say it -- whatever it is -- and stick to your guns instead of telling the rest of us , over and over again, that we do not understand you. We do understand you -- we just cannot predict your manner of defense. Your theology develops in "likeness" to the workings of a pinball machine, bouncing from one obstacle to the next with no one ever knowing where you are going. Is is completely unpredictable. No one elses is. Why? Do answer - just think about it. You want to spiritualize the Seed doctrine, when the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is the Seed of David according to flesh. Sperma isn't the only kind of seed discussed in scripture Bill and I am not taking anything out of context in order to "spiritualize" it. The order is first the natural and then the spiritual. Adam/David are the natural. Jesus is the Promise which is spiritual. The first Adam was a living soul. The second Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Are you saying that Jesus did not come the actual seed of David? If your "spiritual seed" is not your "natural seed," we have yet another nuance that is uniquely JudyTaylor. Not necessarily a bad thing, by the way Not Judy Taylor JD. It is Jesus. Read Matt 22:42-46; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42. Your doctrine is that of the scribes and pharisees JD. Again, is Jesus biologically related to those named in the genealogies or not? I say yes. And if it is according to the flesh that Christ was born, and this of David's seed, then what flesh do you think John is speaking of when he ascribes the spirit of antichrist to those who deny it? I am not making a bigger deal of this than I ought, Judy. I want you to have every opportunity to know and understand the error of your doctrine, because, believe it or not, it does make a difference how you answer the question: "Who do you say that I am?" I don't now and never have denied that Jesus was given and walked about in a flesh body Bill. What I do deny is that is was a SINFUL AND FALLEN flesh body exactly and in every way like those He was sent to redeem. What if I said that the fall of man took "sin " from the mind and thoughts of Satan and made it an aspect of our very nature? To be born with this "sinful" nature is not the problem. To allow that nature to rule one's life is. Christ was born with this same nature - as a result, He is temptable. His holiness or perceived unholiness (due to the existence of this "sinful" nature) is resolved in the fact that He is God -- and God is holy. He is not holy because God the Father solved some sort of theoretical problem. Rather, He is holy because and only because GOD IS HOLY. Your rationalizing falls short JD because God can not be tempted by evil ... So you can't have it both ways - That is a Jesus who has a "sinful nature" just like us and one who is also wholly God who can not be tempted by evil. You will have to explain some scriptures away or cut them out. And you have nothing but rationalistic thinking to support your solutions. What , specifically, is wrong with what I said above? I believe that He defeated sin in his person by the same powers available to me as I walk in the Spirit. He was taught the ways of life (Acts 2:28). He was made like me in every respect. He experienced temptation and even death . that death which brings Him to an end as a result of sin. But because He was truly innocent, death could not lay hold of His demise. Double talk again JD. Impossible for him to be made like you in every respect and ATST to be innocent. Not true at all. YOU are the one who says that scripture cannot possibly be taken literally when it says that He was made as we are, in every respect !! Do you think to
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:35:17 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is really sad that Bill says I can't be saved unless I accept his kind of orthodoxy. No, Bill is using the Bible to correct you, and to exhort you to change your mind, Judy. You don't have understanding of the Bible Bill. You are using Words to make everything biological completely missing the main point. Sin is a spiritual issue with a biological ripple effect generationally. God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Sin/righteousness are not a biological issues. Your doctrine of generaltional curse says otherwise. Not so JD, generational curses are also spiritual in nature. God's law in fact is both spiritual and holy. It is sin that makes us want to make everything to look like us. You want to spiritualize the Seed doctrine, when the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is the Seed of David according to flesh. Sperma isn't the only kind of seed discussed in scripture Bill and I am not taking anything out of context in order to "spiritualize" it. The order is first the natural and then the spiritual. Adam/David are the natural. Jesus is the Promise which is spiritual. The first Adam was a living soul. The second Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Are you saying that Jesus did not come the actual seed of David? If your "spiritual seed" is not your "natural seed," we have yet another nuance that is uniquely JudyTaylor. Not necessarily a bad thing, by the way Not Judy Taylor JD. It is Jesus. Read Matt 22:42-46; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42. Your doctrine is that of the scribes and pharisees JD. And if it is according to the flesh that Christ was born, and this of David's seed, then what flesh do you think John is speaking of when he ascribes the spirit of antichrist to those who deny it? I am not making a bigger deal of this than I ought, Judy. I want you to have every opportunity to know and understand the error of your doctrine, because, believe it or not, it does make a difference how you answer the question: "Who do you say that I am?" I don't now and never have denied that Jesus was given and walked about in a flesh body Bill. What I do deny is that is was a SINFUL AND FALLEN flesh body exactly and in every way like those He was sent to redeem. What if I said that the fall of man took "sin " from the mind and thoughts of Satan and made it an aspect of our very nature? To be born with this "sinful" nature is not the problem. To allow that nature to rule one's life is. Christ was born with this same nature - as a result, He is temptable. His holiness or perceived unholiness (due to the existence of this "sinful" nature) is resolved in the fact that He is God -- and God is holy. He is not holy because God the Father solved some sort of theoretical problem. Rather, He is holy because and only because GOD IS HOLY. Your rationalizing falls short JD because God can not be tempted by evil ... So you can't have it both ways - That is a Jesus who has a "sinful nature" just like us and one who is also wholly God who can not be tempted by evil. You will have to explain some scriptures away or cut them out. I believe that He defeated sin in his person by the same powers available to me as I walk in the Spirit. He was taught the ways of life (Acts 2:28). He was made like me in every respect. He experienced temptation and even death . that death which brings Him to an end as a result of sin. But because He was truly innocent, death could not lay hold of His demise. Double talk again JD. Impossible for him to be made like you in every respect and ATST to be innocent. Just plain impossible by God's own standard, not mine. You were born into this world cursed. He was born the pure and holy son of God. His victory over sin and death (this is to be spoken as if it were one word (sin.and.death ) involves His complicite activity (strange as it might seem) -- perhaps proving that death by sin is always the case and death inspite of sin is fully not the case. And so, it is not that I will live again so much as I will never die. Please don't let your disdain for people (and this your elder brothers in Christ) cloud your ability to affirm truth when it is presented to you. I reject the accusation above since I have no disdain for persons - only the doctrines that do not conform them to godliness and holiness You know Bill God juxtaposes the two kinds of seed in Genesis 3:15. I wonder whose loins the seed of the adversary came through. They (feminine plural) came through the loins of Adam, just as did every human being who came after him. All tha
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus -- God nor Man
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:15:53 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: It is really sad that Bill says I can't be saved unless I accept his kind of orthodoxy. No, Bill is using the Bible to correct you, and to exhort you to change your mind, Judy. You don't have understanding of the Bible Bill. You are using Words to make everything biological completely missing the main point. Sin is a spiritual issue with a biological ripple effect generationally. God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Sin/righteousness are not a biological issues. Your doctrine of generaltional curse says otherwise. You want to spiritualize the Seed doctrine, when the Scriptures tell you that Jesus is the Seed of David according to flesh. Sperma isn't the only kind of seed discussed in scripture Bill and I am not taking anything out of context in order to "spiritualize" it. The order is first the natural and then the spiritual. Adam/David are the natural. Jesus is the Promise which is spiritual. The first Adam was a living soul. The second Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Are you saying that Jesus did not come the actual seed of David? If your "spiritual seed" is not your "natural seed," we have yet another nuance that is uniquely JudyTaylor. Not necessarily a bad thing, by the way And if it is according to the flesh that Christ was born, and this of David's seed, then what flesh do you think John is speaking of when he ascribes the spirit of antichrist to those who deny it? I am not making a bigger deal of this than I ought, Judy. I want you to have every opportunity to know and understand the error of your doctrine, because, believe it or not, it does make a difference how you answer the question: "Who do you say that I am?" I don't now and never have denied that Jesus was given and walked about in a flesh body Bill. What I do deny is that is was a SINFUL AND FALLEN flesh body exactly and in every way like those He was sent to redeem. What if I said that the fall of man took "sin " from the mind and thoughts of Satan and made it an aspect of our very nature? To be born with this "sinful" nature is not the problem. To allow that nature to rule one's life is. Christ was born with this same nature - as a result, He is temptable. His holiness or perceived unholiness (due to the existence of this "sinful" nature) is resolved in the fact that He is God -- and God is holy. He is not holy because God the Father solved some sort of theoretical problem. Rather, He is holy because and only because GOD IS HOLY. I believe that He defeated sin in his person by the same powers available to me as I walk in the Spirit. He was taught the ways of life (Acts 2:28). He was made like me in every respect. He experienced temptation and even death . that death which brings Him to an end as a result of sin. But because He was truly innocent, death could not lay hold of His demise. His victory over sin and death (this is to be spoken as if it were one word (sin.and.death ) involves His complicite activity (strange as it might seem) -- perhaps proving that death by sin is always the case and death inspite of sin is fully not the case. And so, it is not that I will live again so much as I will never die. Please don't let your disdain for people (and this your elder brothers in Christ) cloud your ability to affirm truth when it is presented to you. I reject the accusation above since I have no disdain for persons - only the doctrines that do not conform them to godliness and holiness You know Bill God juxtaposes the two kinds of seed in Genesis 3:15. I wonder whose loins the seed of the adversary came through. They (feminine plural) came through the loins of Adam, just as did every human being who came after him. All that Adam was capable of producing after his fall and subsequent removal from the Garden was human beings destined to die. Yet for some reason the first fallen words out of his mouth -- that is, after their encounter with God -- were ones which changed his wife's name from "Woman," the one who had been made from his flesh, etc., to "Eve," the mother of all who live. So are you saying the Gen 3:15 prophecy refers to Eve rather than to Mary or to both of them? Judy, if Jesus is not of Eve's blood then she is not his mother. Her flesh is not his flesh and her "Seed" (masculine singular) does not reach him. The truth is, however, that it does! Adam was privy to something that you deny. He calls her the mother of all the living. It is possible to be biolgically living and still be spiritually dead Bill. Something was going to spring from her womb that was going to justify life for all life. Follow the Seed promised to Eve throughout the Old Testament and you will discover an amazing story. Let that Seed pass through Seth, and Noah, and Abraham, and Jacob, and Ju
