Re: [Tutor] Replying
Ok, thanks. I didn't think we should be replying to individuals unless on special case's. I also will have edit my header, but that's fine. -Original Message- From: "Steven D'Aprano" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 6:14pm To: tutor@python.org Subject: Re: [Tutor] Replying markri...@gsoftcon.com wrote: > When replying to the mailing list, does everyone just hit the reply button in > your email program. Because that sends the email directly to your email. Also > everyone is cc'ng the mailing list; is that the exceptable way to reply so > everyone in the list gets the replies? Depends on the mail client I am using to reply. In mutt or kmail, I hit "Reply to list", and the reply just goes to the list. In Thunderbird, I use "Reply All", and edit the recipients by hand so that it just goes to the list, and curse the Thunderbird developers. You should not reply to the individual unless you have something private to tell them. Keep replies on the list, for the benefit of anyone else reading. Personally, I get annoyed when people CC me on replies that I'm also getting from the list, but I've long since stopped trying to hold the tide back :) Thank you for asking, and welcome! -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor Mark R Rivet, Genesis Software Consulting ASCT(Computer Technologies), BSIT/SE(Software Engineering) Electrical Engineering Technician Member IEEE, Computer Society Do or do not; there is no try. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
I am using v3.1.8 for Mozilla Thunderbird. Ken On 03/28/2011 06:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Corey Richardson wrote: Thunderbird has a "reply list" button that I use. It does? What version are you using? ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
Corey Richardson wrote: After inspecting the headers of emails from a few different lists, it appears: List-Id, Lust-Unsubscribe, List-Archive, List-Post, List-Help, Oh to be young again... I could have done with a Lust-Unsubscribe command quite a few times... -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
On 28/03/2011 23:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Corey Richardson wrote: Thunderbird has a "reply list" button that I use. It does? What version are you using? Also, if you're a keyboard person, Ctrl-Shift-L (Win7, TB 3.1.9) TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
On 03/28/2011 06:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Corey Richardson wrote: > >> Thunderbird has a "reply list" button that I use. > > It does? What version are you using? 3.1.8 I don't know how it knows what a mailing list is and isn't, but it does. After inspecting the headers of emails from a few different lists, it appears: List-Id, Lust-Unsubscribe, List-Archive, List-Post, List-Help, and List-Subscribe may be helping thunderbird along. Also common among them is a "Precedence: list" header. -- Corey Richardson ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
Corey Richardson wrote: Thunderbird has a "reply list" button that I use. It does? What version are you using? -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
markri...@gsoftcon.com wrote: When replying to the mailing list, does everyone just hit the reply button in your email program. Because that sends the email directly to your email. Also everyone is cc'ng the mailing list; is that the exceptable way to reply so everyone in the list gets the replies? Depends on the mail client I am using to reply. In mutt or kmail, I hit "Reply to list", and the reply just goes to the list. In Thunderbird, I use "Reply All", and edit the recipients by hand so that it just goes to the list, and curse the Thunderbird developers. You should not reply to the individual unless you have something private to tell them. Keep replies on the list, for the benefit of anyone else reading. Personally, I get annoyed when people CC me on replies that I'm also getting from the list, but I've long since stopped trying to hold the tide back :) Thank you for asking, and welcome! -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
On 03/28/2011 01:04 PM, markri...@gsoftcon.com wrote: > When replying to the mailing list, does everyone just hit the reply button in > your email program. Because that sends the email directly to your email. Also > everyone is cc'ng the mailing list; is that the exceptable way to reply so > everyone in the list gets the replies? > Thunderbird has a "reply list" button that I use. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:04 PM, wrote: > When replying to the mailing list, does everyone just hit the reply button in > your email program. Because that sends the email directly to your email. Also > everyone is cc'ng the mailing list; is that the exceptable way to reply so > everyone in the list gets the replies? Fully functional email clients (generally only found on Linux/BSD) have a "reply to Group" function that works as intended. Most email clients lack such ability, so the process on this list is to use "Reply to All", which CC's the list as you describe. How email lists function is an oft-debated topic. Many (most?) lists will make the "reply-to" header in the email reflect the list address (instead of the original sender), so a simple "Reply" will go to the list. However, the "Reply To" header is not intended by the email RFC to function this way. It ends up in a battle of "follow the spec as intended" vs "follow the generally expected results". You can read much on this debate by googling for "Reply To munging harmful" and "Reply To munging useful", but further discussion is definitely outside the scope of this list. Technical mailing lists and/or long-existing mailing lists will often take stances on subjects such as reply to, top-quoting, quote trimming, signatures, plain text vs HTML, etc because many of those standards came about from a time when communicating detailed and in-depth topics over email to a large group was pretty much the only way to communicate if not in person. Today's web-forum lol outlook-trained populace is generally ignorant of such reasonings, but trust me, the rules have a reason beyond techie elitism for existing. (*steps off soapbox*). You can google "Eternal September" for more on that general topic. TL;DR Version: Yes, that's perfectly acceptable. *bites tongue to resist going off on a rant about TL;DR* Hope that was helpful! -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne swift...@swiftone.org ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Replying
When replying to the mailing list, does everyone just hit the reply button in your email program. Because that sends the email directly to your email. Also everyone is cc'ng the mailing list; is that the exceptable way to reply so everyone in the list gets the replies? Mark R Rivet, Genesis Software Consulting ASCT(Computer Technologies), BSIT/SE(Software Engineering) Electrical Engineering Technician Member IEEE, Computer Society Mark R Rivet, Genesis Software Consulting ASCT(Computer Technologies), BSIT/SE(Software Engineering) Electrical Engineering Technician Member IEEE, Computer Society Do or do not; there is no try. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to digest messages
Kent Johnson wrote: When replying to digest messages, please - change the subject to the subject of the message you are replying to - trim the message body to contain only the (portion of the) message you are replying to Thanks, Kent ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor Can I add some other guideline/rule/law/dictation, especially for frequent poster: - Send in text instead of HTML or configure your newsreader/mail client to send both text and HTML. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Replying to digest messages
When replying to digest messages, please - change the subject to the subject of the message you are replying to - trim the message body to contain only the (portion of the) message you are replying to Thanks, Kent ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Dave Kuhlman wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2007 at 11:28:21AM +, Tim Golden wrote: >> Kent Johnson wrote: >>> Tim Golden wrote: field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually don't want to send the originating individual a private copy of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a list specially on a general reply-to-all. > > MailMan provides an administrative option to remove duplicates: > > "Filter out duplicate messages to list members (if possible)" > > I believe that it is on by default. > > Am I right that, if set, this eliminates your problem? Thanks very much for that info. Yes, it's not that I've received irate messages from people who've received a message twice! More that it "feels" untidy, but I suspect that you're right and that any real problem is neatly solved by Mailman. >> Thanks for that; (testing it out on this post). My issue is that my >> procmail filter doesn't seem to pick up the list when it's cced. >> But that's for me to sort out it :) > > Maybe a procmail rule something like this: > > :0: > * ^(To|Cc):[EMAIL PROTECTED] > tutor-python-folder > > Note the Cc. I'm actually using the List-Id header: :0: * ^List-Id:.*tutor.python.org IN-lists so I'm surprised it fell through; I would expect the List-Id to appear in the headers anyway. If it happens again, I'll look more closely at the headers. It hasn't yet. Thanks for the hint, though. TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Fri, Feb 16, 2007 at 11:28:21AM +, Tim Golden wrote: > Kent Johnson wrote: > > Tim Golden wrote: > >> field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually > >> don't want to send the originating individual a private copy > >> of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any > >> case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list > >> is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, > >> neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a > >> list specially on a general reply-to-all. MailMan provides an administrative option to remove duplicates: "Filter out duplicate messages to list members (if possible)" I believe that it is on by default. Am I right that, if set, this eliminates your problem? > > > > I use TB too; if you reply-all and just delete the originator from To: > > (leaving the list as Cc:) it works fine. Though I have started leaving > > the originator in as some people seem to prefer that. > > Thanks for that; (testing it out on this post). My issue is that my > procmail filter doesn't seem to pick up the list when it's cced. > But that's for me to sort out it :) Maybe a procmail rule something like this: :0: * ^(To|Cc):[EMAIL PROTECTED] tutor-python-folder Note the Cc. Dave -- Dave Kuhlman http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Greetings: I just thought I'd throw my own hat into the ring. I'm trying out my new, asbestos-free, flame-retardant underwear. ;^) > -Original Message- > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:14:29 -0500 > From: "Michael P. Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list > To: "ALAN GAULD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: Tutor > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On 2/16/07, ALAN GAULD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > However, the "standard behavior" at the time was that > > > replies went back to the mailing list, not to the original sender. > > > > But the mailing list was the original sender so it was all wonderfully > > consistent. Reply goes to sender only, which happens > > to be the list server... > > > > Ah, the good ol' days :-) > > > > Alan g. > > > > Alan, > > The issue is not what the mailing list does, but what the user expects and > should do. I agree. However, it seems to me that the expectation in this case is divided into two contradictory positions. (The division seems pretty even to me, but that's not necessarily a critical point.) > Listserv was the first mailing list system from 23 years ago. > The users expected, as standard behavior, that replies would go to the > mailing list, not to the original sender. You had made a claim that more > than 10 years ago (when listserv was still in use) that the standard > behavior was that mailing lists was that users would reply to the original > sender. I'm just offering up one, very well-known example to refute that. Again, I agree. That is an excellent counter-example. To me, it demonstrates that this division of expectation existed from the beginning of the technology. > Myself, I'm not a person who cares how the mailing list goes. I'll adapt. > But it does irk me when "standards" are applied because of > misunderstandings > of applications. For example, the usual convention is that people attach > their comments below the respondent's. At my work, they have tried to > convince me that the "standard" is to put it above simply because Outlook > does that. Don't get me started on that. I just got out of a minor fire fight on another forum over that one. :^( > When making arguments, please make the arguments on a technical basis, not > on "this was how it has been done in the past". I would agree with this, too, if this were a technical issue. But it's not. Read on. > If that was the case, then > all the stuff you get in your mailbox isn't "spam" since spam related only > to cross-posting on newsgroups (anyone remember the Spam Wars?). However, > the general collective has decided to expand the standard definition. > > Times change, standards can evolve. Sometimes not for the better. Make an > argument for keeping the "standards" how they should be technically, not > historically. > While I agree that appeals to historical authority aren't very helpful in cases like this, assertions of technical superiority are equally unproductive. Again, IMHO, this not a technical issue. Ring vs. bus vs. star network topology is a technical issue. This is an issue of convenience, which is intensely personal. The rightness or wrongness of either position is subjective (purely so, I believe) and technical discussion does not clarify. That's why discussions like this so often turn into religious wars (as this one nearly did a few posts back). There is a technical issue that relates, however. Some posters have touched on it. Modern mail and news software should be flexible enough to accommodate the user's preference in this regard. A few are, apparently. Most are not. Why not? What should be done about it? Who has a Python implementation that makes the default "Reply to:" behavior configurable? Which is the most flexible? How can it be improved? These are questions that benefit from technical discussion. I'd like to see more posts on these topics, and less on whose personal preference is "correct". -Arcege > -- > There's so many different worlds, > So many different suns. > And we have just one world, > But we live in different ones. > -- > Regards, Barry [EMAIL PROTECTED] 541-302-1107 We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals. -Quarry worker's creed ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Tim Golden schreef: > I would take minor issue -- with you, and with the creators > of Thunderbird which is my current mail client of choice. It > looks to me as though you're suggesting that the reply-all > button is there to reply to a list, whereas it seems to me > to be there to reply to all the recipients in the original > email, *not* just to reply to a group or other bulk originator. > Now that's what Thunderbird does: puts Alan Gauld in the To: > field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually > don't want to send the originating individual a private copy > of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any > case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list > is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, > neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a > list specially on a general reply-to-all. It's a missing feature in Thunderbird (and some other mail readers that call themselves 'modern'), IMO important enough to be called a bug. Luckily it seems to be worked on (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45715 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233417). Meanwhile I work around the issue by subscribing to mailing lists indirectly via gmane. I like the interface offered by newsgroups better anyway for this kind of stuff. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/16/07, ALAN GAULD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, the "standard behavior" at the time was that > replies went back to the mailing list, not to the original sender. But the mailing list was the original sender so it was all wonderfully consistent. Reply goes to sender only, which happens to be the list server... Ah, the good ol' days :-) Alan g. Alan, The issue is not what the mailing list does, but what the user expects and should do. Listserv was the first mailing list system from 23 years ago. The users expected, as standard behavior, that replies would go to the mailing list, not to the original sender. You had made a claim that more than 10 years ago (when listserv was still in use) that the standard behavior was that mailing lists was that users would reply to the original sender. I'm just offering up one, very well-known example to refute that. Myself, I'm not a person who cares how the mailing list goes. I'll adapt. But it does irk me when "standards" are applied because of misunderstandings of applications. For example, the usual convention is that people attach their comments below the respondent's. At my work, they have tried to convince me that the "standard" is to put it above simply because Outlook does that. When making arguments, please make the arguments on a technical basis, not on "this was how it has been done in the past". If that was the case, then all the stuff you get in your mailbox isn't "spam" since spam related only to cross-posting on newsgroups (anyone remember the Spam Wars?). However, the general collective has decided to expand the standard definition. Times change, standards can evolve. Sometimes not for the better. Make an argument for keeping the "standards" how they should be technically, not historically. -Arcege -- There's so many different worlds, So many different suns. And we have just one world, But we live in different ones. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/16/07, Alan Gauld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As to standard list behaviour, I don't know of any list thats been around for more than say 10 years that uses Reply to send to All. This seems to be a very recent thing. (And most of the lists I am on have been around for much more than 10 years! :-) Regards, Alan G. If I remember correctly, LISTSERV did not return replies to the original poster but to the mailing list you were subscribed to. LISTSERV, c. 1984, is the first mailing list software package and was widely used at the time. I believe this is still the default behavior. This is different because the postings are coming from LISTSERV, not the original sender. Based on documentation, there is currently an option to add a reply-to of the original sender; but not all clients honor reply-to fields. However, the "standard behavior" at the time was that replies went back to the mailing list, not to the original sender. -Arcege -- There's so many different worlds, So many different suns. And we have just one world, But we live in different ones. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Kent Johnson wrote: > Tim Golden wrote: >> field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually >> don't want to send the originating individual a private copy >> of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any >> case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list >> is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, >> neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a >> list specially on a general reply-to-all. > > I use TB too; if you reply-all and just delete the originator from To: > (leaving the list as Cc:) it works fine. Though I have started leaving > the originator in as some people seem to prefer that. Thanks for that; (testing it out on this post). My issue is that my procmail filter doesn't seem to pick up the list when it's cced. But that's for me to sort out it :) TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Tim Golden wrote: > field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually > don't want to send the originating individual a private copy > of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any > case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list > is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, > neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a > list specially on a general reply-to-all. I use TB too; if you reply-all and just delete the originator from To: (leaving the list as Cc:) it works fine. Though I have started leaving the originator in as some people seem to prefer that. Kent ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Tim Golden wrote: > Alan Gauld wrote: >> But its obvious there are two views at work here. > > (The one which sees an apostrophe in "it's" and the > one which doesn't? ;) > > But, joking aside, I think you've summarised the situation > quite well, and I suspect that -- given the what must be > thousands of mailing lists and newsgroups out there -- > anyones claim Ouch! "anyone's claim..." :) TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Alan Gauld wrote: > But its obvious there are two views at work here. (The one which sees an apostrophe in "it's" and the one which doesn't? ;) But, joking aside, I think you've summarised the situation quite well, and I suspect that -- given the what must be thousands of mailing lists and newsgroups out there -- anyones claim that "most x do y" is probably based on anecdotal experience, matter how widespread and long-lived. I would take minor issue -- with you, and with the creators of Thunderbird which is my current mail client of choice. It looks to me as though you're suggesting that the reply-all button is there to reply to a list, whereas it seems to me to be there to reply to all the recipients in the original email, *not* just to reply to a group or other bulk originator. Now that's what Thunderbird does: puts Alan Gauld in the To: field and [EMAIL PROTECTED] in cc: My problem there is that I usually don't want to send the originating individual a private copy of an email he/she is going to receive from the list in any case, so I usually cut-and-paste around so that only the list is in To: AFAIK, TB doesn't offer any configurability here, neither a reply-to-list button, nor any option to treat a list specially on a general reply-to-all. I work with several different lists and simply work around the differences between them so this is hardly problematic for me, but if anyone knows of a TB configuration (or extension) which offers reply-to-group please do let me know! > Vive la difference! Indeed. TJG ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
"Luke Paireepinart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > It's not the inconvenience but the fact that it's nonstandard, as > far as > every mailing list i've been on except this. It is interesting to see this thread because its a hot button of mine that many new mailing lists implement this non standard behaviour - ie send replies to the list! But its obvious there are two views at work here. I see the standard behaviour of Reply as - It only ever sends to one person. Thus if I use Reply I know, with absolute certainty, that I will never, ever, be sending private views to anyone other than the intended recipient. Now when a mailing list subverts that it completely blows that contract out of the water. It means I have to be much, much, more careful about checking what I send and to whom. When dealing with 300+ emails per day, only a small number of which are from lists, that's a major pain. The other view is that Reply should send the mail to whatever the original source of the message was whether it be a list, newsgroup, forum or whatever. (But in that view what is the purpose of ReplyALL - why is it there?) Particularly since doing it this way actually loses the natural ability of the mail tool to send to an individual! > I didn't get the e-mail from you. You posted the e-mail to the list > and > i received it because I'm a member of the list. But you didn't really get it from the list either. The list server does occasionally send emails - bounces, errors, reminders etc - but really it forwards mails from an originator. You do get mails from me, not the list server. The list server is no different to your normal SMTP relay. It simply forwards the mails I send, it is a mechanism to replace everyone having to maintain their own copy of a very large distribution list. But when I send a mail to tutor my mental model is that the tutor addrsss is just a large distribution list. As to standard list behaviour, I don't know of any list thats been around for more than say 10 years that uses Reply to send to All. This seems to be a very recent thing. (And most of the lists I am on have been around for much more than 10 years! :-) > The list is the sender. It aggregates posts to me. If you subscribe to the digest this is true, but you should never reply to the digest! The individiual mails inside the digest are all sent from the individual posters. > When I reply it should put my post in the same thread, > one level below and immediately after the previous person's > post Sorry, we are talking about a mailing list here, not a newsgroup or forum. Mail doesn't naturally support threading, many mail clients don't do it at all. Others simply sort by subject/date. Threading of email is always a bit arbitrary and error prone in my exprience. The concept is there but the implementation is nearly always dependant on the client (from gmane to Outlook...). > It has retrained me to use reply-all, but I still don't like it. > Also you end up CCing copies of your e-mails to everyone. >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html That's a plus in my book because I use the digest (or gmane newsgroup) so it keeps me in real-time sync with the threads I'm actively involved with but leaves the others for batch mode reading... Regards, Alan G. Vive la difference! ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Bill Campbell wrote: > Having the Reply-To: to the original poster minimizes the probability of > somebody sending mail to a list that was intended for the original poster > (which may be private). Well, no. It minimizes the probability of someone sending mail to a list. It equally minimizes that probability, regardless of whether the mail was intended to go to the list or privately to the original poster. Most replies to this list are intended to go to the list. At least a couple times a week we see messages from one of the more helpful tutors saying "please reply to the list, not just to me." Just yesterday, I received an email in reply to one of my messages that was intended to assist the person I had replied to. The intended recepient never got the email, because the sender, no doubt relying on the default, did not reply to the list. Having reply-to go to the list is having it go to the most commonly preferred recipient. So, minimizing the probability that the mail will go to the list, when most mail is intended to go to the list, is, I think, a Bad Thing. Not that Bad a Thing, in the grand scheme of things, but a Bad Thing nonetheless. > The only advantage of having it set to the list is it makes it easier > for lazy people to send nonsense to hundreds of people. That's way out of line. The advantage of having it go to the list is to make the default coincide with the usual intent; and that's what defaults are for. This is true regardless of whether the replying party is "lazy" or not; and regardless of whether the replying post is "nonsense" or not. As I said, I have no particular dog in this fight. The list uses a reply-to mechanism that I don't think makes sense, so I fixed it for myself with procmail. But it's pretty arrogant to think that the divide of opinion on here is not a reasonable one, and that anyone who doesn't agree with your position must be lazy or writing nonsense. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007, Luke Paireepinart wrote: >Bill Campbell wrote: >> The major reason for not setting Reply-To: thelist is that it makes it >> *SLIGHTLY* more difficult to post something to the list and replys should >> go to the sender. IHMO, one should have to go to a little bit of effort >> before posting a message that may go to thousands of recipients. >> >> Using the ``mutt'' mailer, this effort is simply pressing ``L'' instead of >> ``r'' when posting to the list and adding the listname to the subscribe >> section of ~/.muttrc, hardly a major inconvenience. >> >It's not the inconvenience but the fact that it's nonstandard, as far as >every mailing list i've been on except this. Hardly non-standrd. The option for this in the Mailman MLM is: Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists. I've been maintaining various technical mailing lists for over twenty years now, and see this same thread come up many times. Having the Reply-To: to the original poster minimizes the probability of somebody sending mail to a list that was intended for the original poster (which may be private). The only advantage of having it set to the list is it makes it easier for lazy people to send nonsense to hundreds of people. As I said in my original message, it should require a little bit of effort to send messages to hundreds or thousands of recipients. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 It is necessary for the welfare of society that genius should be privileged to utter sedition, to blaspheme, to outrage good taste, to corrupt the youthful mind, and generally to scandalize one's uncles. -- George Bernard Shaw ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
Bill Campbell wrote: > The major reason for not setting Reply-To: thelist is that it makes it > *SLIGHTLY* more difficult to post something to the list and replys should > go to the sender. IHMO, one should have to go to a little bit of effort > before posting a message that may go to thousands of recipients. > > Using the ``mutt'' mailer, this effort is simply pressing ``L'' instead of > ``r'' when posting to the list and adding the listname to the subscribe > section of ~/.muttrc, hardly a major inconvenience. > It's not the inconvenience but the fact that it's nonstandard, as far as every mailing list i've been on except this. You don't pick people to mail specifically on the mailing list, why should you reply to specific people, unless you hit a special button? I didn't get the e-mail from you. You posted the e-mail to the list and i received it because I'm a member of the list. The list is the sender. It aggregates posts to me. When I reply it should put my post in the same thread, one level below and immediately after the previous person's post, like i expect it to. It has retrained me to use reply-all, but I still don't like it. Also you end up CCing copies of your e-mails to everyone. > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > ... > Bill > -- > INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software, LLC > URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way > FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 > > ``We believe...that a mugger will kill you in the half-second it takes to > draw from the holster, but won't harm you while you dial the police on your > cell phone, talk to the dispatcher and wait half an hour for officers to > arrive.'' -- Gun-Control Net-work Credo > ___ > Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor > > ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
The major reason for not setting Reply-To: thelist is that it makes it *SLIGHTLY* more difficult to post something to the list and replys should go to the sender. IHMO, one should have to go to a little bit of effort before posting a message that may go to thousands of recipients. Using the ``mutt'' mailer, this effort is simply pressing ``L'' instead of ``r'' when posting to the list and adding the listname to the subscribe section of ~/.muttrc, hardly a major inconvenience. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software, LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 ``We believe...that a mugger will kill you in the half-second it takes to draw from the holster, but won't harm you while you dial the police on your cell phone, talk to the dispatcher and wait half an hour for officers to arrive.'' -- Gun-Control Net-work Credo ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
2007/2/15, ALAN GAULD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > realize I sent it to the sender instead of the list, > so I send a second message after it. So do you find it odd when dealing with normal email and you hit reply and it only goes to the sender? No, because it is sent by the sender to me, not to some list. Or do you not use email beyond one to one and list membership? Surely you are introducing inconsistent behaviour between your private mail and your list mail?? No, in my private mail I hit 'reply' and I reply. In my mailing lists I hit 'reply' and reply. I seriously cannot fathom why anyone would want a tool that makes things operate two differenmt ways, one for normal email and one for mailing lists. They all come into the same mailbox, I want them all to work the same way! Well, what is the 'same way'? When I reply, I reply. When I get something from a person, and reply it goes to that person. When I read something on a newsgroup and reply, it goes to that newsgroup. When I read something on a forum and reply, it goes to that forum. As a matter of interest, what happens if you hit ReplyAll on the other style lists? I assume that would work as I would expect and send to the list and sender? If so how do you send to the sender only? Change the address by hand. That's hard to do, it's true, but the number of times I want to reply in person to a message on a list is so low that that's no problem at all. -- Andre Engels, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/15/07, Alan Gauld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I dunno about you but 95% of my email is private, only about 5% comes from mailing lists. Yeah, me too, but I guess it seems easier to just hit 'reply' 100% of the time and have it go to the right recipient. My point really was that 95% of the time, the recipient is everyone in the mailing list, and only 5% of the time do I want to privately respond to a mailing list item. I've just noticed that Gmail doesn't even show a reply-all button if there is only one sender. If there is a cc included then it becomes available. Either way I will just remember to hit reply-all. No big whup. RQ ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
"Richard Querin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote >> >> > The following tutor faq has an explanation: >> > >> > http://www.python.org/infogami-faq/tutor/tutor-why-do-my-replies-go-to-t >> > he-person-who-sent-the-message-and-not-to-the-list/ > > It seems like this is designed for the 5% case when it makes the > other 95% > of normal reply cases more difficult. I dunno about you but 95% of my email is private, only about 5% comes from mailing lists. > I would (like to) think that the vast majority of replies are > meant for all eyes. Thats why its called Rely *ALL*. Private is Reply, Public is Reply ALL. Thats what email tools have done from day one. > responsibility of the person replying if he/she wants to respond > privately > only rather than making that the defacto default. The default is hit ReplyAll. Only use Reply when you specifically want to send privately... If there is only one sender ReplyAll will only send to them (unless you have asked it to send to you too, but thats nearly always configurable and only useful if you don't automatically create a Sent entry) > Hitting reply in Gmail responds only back to the sender and not to > the list. That's true of the vast majority of mail tools. Its what the email usability standard says is supposed to be the meaning of those buttons. Thatsd why they are named that way. > I've been corrected (politely I might add) on more than one > occasion. So just use ReplyAll all the time... unless you only want to send to the sender. (What I have noticed is that some web based mail tools don't seem to have ReplyAll as the default which is downright unfriendly design...) I'm really confused about why mailing lists seem to be moving in this direction. It adds nothing and makes a very inconsistent user experience IMHO. (But then, I'm equally confused as to why anyone would prefer a web forum over a news group, and that seems to happen too. Newsgroups are far more powerful and web forums add zero so far as I can tell...) Alan G An internet old-timer :-) ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/14/07, Mike Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The following tutor faq has an explanation: > > http://www.python.org/infogami-faq/tutor/tutor-why-do-my-replies-go-to-t > he-person-who-sent-the-message-and-not-to-the-list/ It seems like this is designed for the 5% case when it makes the other 95% of normal reply cases more difficult. I would (like to) think that the vast majority of replies are meant for all eyes. I would think it's the responsibility of the person replying if he/she wants to respond privately only rather than making that the defacto default. Hitting reply in Gmail responds only back to the sender and not to the list. I've been corrected (politely I might add) on more than one occasion. Either way, it's a good list though. ;) ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/14/07, Mike Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The following tutor faq has an explanation: > > http://www.python.org/infogami-faq/tutor/tutor-why-do-my-replies-go-to-t > he-person-who-sent-the-message-and-not-to-the-list/ I think the argument in that "explanation" sucks. A asks something, B replies A. C replies to B's post, correcting him on a few things and at the same time asks A some new questions. There is no point in letting B having the sole post sent to his mailbox. And these "flamewars" that the FAQ describes occur too seldom for it to be an argument of the sake of not having a reply-to-tag. Just my two cents. -- - Rikard. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On 2/15/07, Andre Engels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's getting to be the majority of mailing lists that do it the other way, > and I find it quite irritating that this list does not - I have had several > times that I sent a mail, and after sending it, sometimes long after sending > it, I realize I sent it to the sender instead of the list, so I send a > second message after it. Who knows how often I have failed to do that? I second that. This list is the only one I've seen that does not utilize a reply-to-tag in the postings. Lots of my replies has gone to the poster in question and not to the list (which was the intention). -- - Rikard. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
2007/2/14, Alan Gauld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Because hitting Reply and sending to a list would only be consistent if the list was the originator of the message. Some mailing lists do implement this bizarre and non-standard email behaviour but thankfully the Python community doesn't! This behaviour has been standard in email tools for over 25 years, let's not try to change it now! It's getting to be the majority of mailing lists that do it the other way, and I find it quite irritating that this list does not - I have had several times that I sent a mail, and after sending it, sometimes long after sending it, I realize I sent it to the sender instead of the list, so I send a second message after it. Who knows how often I have failed to do that? -- Andre Engels, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote:
> All texts that I reply to this list are automatically sent to the
> author, or - by selecting "Reply all" in my mail client - the
> tutorlist gets a CC.
>
> Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list
> recipient at all times?
I also prefer that, but it's a matter of taste, and this lists tastes
don't run that way.
I use procmail to add a Reply-To: header, and then dump the email into my
separate Python in-box:
# Python tutor list
:0:
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
{
:0hf
| $FORMAIL -A "Reply-To: tutor@python.org"
:0:
inbox.python
}
(I've got a FORMAIL=/usr/bin/formail earlier in my .procmailrc)
___
Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
"Rikard Bosnjakovic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > All texts that I reply to this list are automatically sent to the > author, or - by selecting "Reply all" in my mail client - the > tutorlist gets a CC. Yep, that makes sense. It's how mail tools work in a sane world. You Reply and it goes to the sender. You ReplyAll and it goes to everyone who received the message, including the list. Normal email behaviour. > Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list > recipient at all times? Because hitting Reply and sending to a list would only be consistent if the list was the originator of the message. Some mailing lists do implement this bizarre and non-standard email behaviour but thankfully the Python community doesn't! This behaviour has been standard in email tools for over 25 years, let's not try to change it now! IMHO of course :-) Alan G. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:08:38 -0800 Dave Kuhlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 05:20:44PM +0100, Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote: > > > Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list > > recipient at all times? > I use Sylpheed 2.2.7 in a Linux box. There are 'Reply' and 'Reply all' options. when I send a message using 'Reply" it goes only to the Tutor List. Using the 'Reply all" choice it goes to the prior poster with a copy to the list. John Montgomery ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 05:20:44PM +0100, Rikard Bosnjakovic wrote: > Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list > recipient at all times? Believe it or not -- The email reader that I use (mutt on a FreeBSD machine that I telnet/ssh into) has a reply-to-list operation. That's what I've used to post this message. So, you can tell me if it is doing the right thing. You might look for a similar feature in your email reader. In the mutt email reader, I've actually had to do a little configuration to tell mutt which lists I want to use this feature on. I just checked. It looks like when I use the reply-to-list operation in mutt, the only recipient is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dave -- Dave Kuhlman http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rikard Bosnjakovic > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:21 AM > To: tutor@python.org > Subject: [Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list > > All texts that I reply to this list are automatically sent to the > author, or - by selecting "Reply all" in my mail client - the > tutorlist gets a CC. > > Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list > recipient at all times? > > > -- > - Rikard. > ___ > Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor > The following tutor faq has an explanation: http://www.python.org/infogami-faq/tutor/tutor-why-do-my-replies-go-to-t he-person-who-sent-the-message-and-not-to-the-list/ Or http://tinyurl.com/uns5q Mike - NOTICE: This e-mail transmission and any documents or files attached to it contain information for the sole use of the above-identified individual or entity. Its contents may be privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under the law. Any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you are not the intended recipient. FGNS ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Replying to the tutor-list
All texts that I reply to this list are automatically sent to the author, or - by selecting "Reply all" in my mail client - the tutorlist gets a CC. Why is there no reply-to-tag in all the posts, making the list recipient at all times? -- - Rikard. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
