Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
I'm not against a well done documentation, but it would just increase the number of 'passive' users. ICS benefits from its active users, those trying to understand what's going on under the hood contributing new features or bugfixes. Hi Arno, I have to disagree on this. With good documentation, ICS will have more users and some of them will eventually deep further into the source. Yes, because it is a huge effort to write and maintain a good documentation, probably a lifetime job for a single person. You hit the real point here Paul -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Have you ever had a look at the d7indy.hlp? This automatically created documentation looks great but is virtually useless. But it was sufficient for Borland to build Indy into Delphi, and it thus has far more users than ICS. It is very easy to add extra comments into the interface section, which are then automatically added to the help file by decent help generators, like F1 Help which I uses for my RAS components. In order to get just a function and property table it's much easier to have a look at the source. Since all the VCL source is supplied, I guess Borland could skip help completely. Yes, because it is a huge effort to write and maintain a good documentation, probably a lifetime job for a single person. A lot of the documentation already exists, the trouble is it's split between an old help file, web pages and some wiki thing. It's probably three months work for someone to build decent help from that, in the ICS source, developers can then easily keep it up to date as new features are added. I've said this several times before over the years, but other people have 'better' ideas, none of which seem to actually seem to produce anything. So the result is people ignoring ICS because of the difficulty of learning to use it. Angus -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote: Since all the VCL source is supplied, I guess Borland could skip help completely. Borlands online help is far more than a nicely designed, colored table of function and property names. Yes, because it is a huge effort to write and maintain a good documentation, probably a lifetime job for a single person. I've said this several times before over the years, but other people have 'better' ideas, none of which seem to actually seem to produce anything. Correct, it's not moving forward. It's probably three months work for someone to build decent help from that Not anybody likes plenty of comments in the source units, and even 3 months is a long time, however we should think about that again since the Wiki seems to be dead. Also note that it is extremly difficult to write documentations in a non native language. So the result is people ignoring ICS because of the difficulty of learning to use it. When I started programming, my first application was a SMTP client, I tried Indy over 3 days than I moved to ICS and got it working at once :) Angus -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Arno Garrels wrote: Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote: Since all the VCL source is supplied, I guess Borland could skip help completely. Borlands online help is far more than a nicely designed, colored table of function and property names. Yes, because it is a huge effort to write and maintain a good documentation, probably a lifetime job for a single person. I've said this several times before over the years, but other people have 'better' ideas, none of which seem to actually seem to produce anything. Correct, it's not moving forward. It's probably three months work for someone to build decent help from that Not anybody likes plenty of comments in the source units, and even 3 months is a long time, however we should think about that again since the Wiki seems to be dead. Also note that it is extremly difficult to write documentations in a non native language. As regards this point, I will be happy to help out with fixing the English in any ICS documentation that is done. I have previously worked with people who have written documentation in their language, then used a web translator to convert that into English. This English is funny at best and wrong at worst. But, since I have no problems with English and a computer engineer, I am often able to 'fix' this to what a native speaker would write. So, if someone does start to write in not-so-good English or in a foreign language (that is supported by a web translator), we can work it out! Cheers Mohit. -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
As regards this point, I will be happy to help out with fixing the English in any ICS documentation that is done. I have previously worked with people who have written documentation in their language, then used a web translator to convert that into English. This English is funny at best and wrong at worst. But, since I have no problems with English and a computer engineer, I am often able to 'fix' this to what a native speaker would write. So, if someone does start to write in not-so-good English or in a foreign language (that is supported by a web translator), we can work it out! Maybe you could also directly write the help text in http://wiki.overbyte.be. You can write whatever part you feel confortable with. Other people will complete. For example - do not take this as an offence but an example - you can read Delphi source code but don't know anything about ICS, then you can enter all the methods, properties and events and someone else will enter the exact description. Contribute to the SSL Effort. Visit http://www.overbyte.be/eng/ssl.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Author of ICS (Internet Component Suite, freeware) Author of MidWare (Multi-tier framework, freeware) http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Francois Piette wrote: As regards this point, I will be happy to help out with fixing the English in any ICS documentation that is done. I have previously worked with people who have written documentation in their language, then used a web translator to convert that into English. This English is funny at best and wrong at worst. But, since I have no problems with English and a computer engineer, I am often able to 'fix' this to what a native speaker would write. So, if someone does start to write in not-so-good English or in a foreign language (that is supported by a web translator), we can work it out! Maybe you could also directly write the help text in http://wiki.overbyte.be. You can write whatever part you feel confortable with. Other people will complete. For example - do not take this as an offence but an example - you can read Delphi source code but don't know anything about ICS, then you can enter all the methods, properties and events and someone else will enter the exact description. I shall start on it as soon as I have the time.. I am rushing for something that needs doing by the middle of next week.. But I have bookmarked the wiki for exactly that reason. Cheers Mohit. -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Maybe you could also directly write the help text in http://wiki.overbyte.be. You can write whatever part you feel confortable with. Other people will complete. For example - do not take this as an offence but an example - you can read Delphi source code but don't know anything about ICS, then you can enter all the methods, properties and events and someone else will enter the exact description. I shall start on it as soon as I have the time.. I am rushing for something that needs doing by the middle of next week.. But I have bookmarked the wiki for exactly that reason. Good ! Create your account on the wiki and tell me who you are. I'll give you edit permission. Contribute to the SSL Effort. Visit http://www.overbyte.be/eng/ssl.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Author of ICS (Internet Component Suite, freeware) Author of MidWare (Multi-tier framework, freeware) http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
I'm really sad for Borland another chance stupidly wasted... who was the genius that creates the non-extensibility idioturbo model Only for programmers that likes to run in a closet -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Maurizio Lotauro Enviado el: Jueves, 07 de Septiembre de 2006 14:55 Para: ICS support mailing Asunto: Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo Scrive Mohit Sindhwani [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi! I was just reading the press release about the Borland Turbo products.. just started to download it (it's a lot!) but the Explore Edition is free (I think even for commercial apps) and I was wondering if anyone got their hands onto it before me! Any idea if the ICS will work with it? The faq say that you can't add any thirdy party component to the explorer version, so I expected that the asnwer to your question is no. Bye, Maurizio. This mail has been sent using Alpikom webmail system http://www.alpikom.it -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
If you think about it, the whole point of having the free version is to get people interested and get beginners started. Now they have to create the components by code ... wise decision :) [OT] I'm really sad for Borland another chance stupidly wasted... who was the genius that creates the non-extensibility idioturbo model Only for programmers that likes to run in a closet -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Maurizio Lotauro Enviado el: Jueves, 07 de Septiembre de 2006 14:55 Para: ICS support mailing Asunto: Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo Scrive Mohit Sindhwani [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi! I was just reading the press release about the Borland Turbo products.. just started to download it (it's a lot!) but the Explore Edition is free (I think even for commercial apps) and I was wondering if anyone got their hands onto it before me! Any idea if the ICS will work with it? The faq say that you can't add any thirdy party component to the explorer version, so I expected that the asnwer to your question is no. Bye, Maurizio. This mail has been sent using Alpikom webmail system http://www.alpikom.it -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
I'm really sad for Borland another chance stupidly wasted... who was the genius that creates the non-extensibility idioturbo model Only for programmers that likes to run in a closet There are two Turbo versions: Explorer and Pro. Explorer is free of charge but can't be extended with 3rd party components (you still CAN use 3rd party component but you have to create them at runtime. Not very diffiuclt !). Pro has not this limitation. It is the full BDS2006 with only one personnality. -- Contribute to the SSL Effort. Visit http://www.overbyte.be/eng/ssl.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
You can create the ICS components at run-time and set properties as needed. The only thing that usually causes problems is knowing event signatures. -Johnnie Norsworthy -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Hi! I was just reading the press release about the Borland Turbo products.. just started to download it (it's a lot!) but the Explore Edition is free (I think even for commercial apps) and I was wondering if anyone got their hands onto it before me! Any idea if the ICS will work with it? The faq say that you can't add any thirdy party component to the explorer version, so I expected that the asnwer to your question is no. Actually the answer is yes. See my previous post. Turbo Pro will defenitely have no problem. -- Contribute to the SSL Effort. Visit http://www.overbyte.be/eng/ssl.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Jack wrote: If you think about it, the whole point of having the free version is to get people interested and get beginners started. Now they have to create the components by code ... wise decision :) [OT] I agree with you. Especially the beginners use to use plenty of third party components, one of the reasons why Delphi became so popular has been always the huge amount of third perty components available. --- Arno Garrels [TeamICS] http://www.overbyte.be/eng/overbyte/teamics.html -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Hi! I was just reading the press release about the Borland Turbo products.. just started to download it (it's a lot!) but the Explore Edition is free (I think even for commercial apps) and I was wondering if anyone got their hands onto it before me! Any idea if the ICS will work with it? AFAIK the free Explorer version doesn't allow third party components being installed. Right. If you want to use 3rd party components, then you'll have to create it by code. ICS will work with Turbo Explorer since the compiler is the same as BDS2006. Creating component by code is not very difficult, specially for ICS since they are non visual component. -- Contribute to the SSL Effort. Visit http://www.overbyte.be/eng/ssl.html -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
That's amazing! An excellent tool for beginners that requires a (somewhat) deep knowledge only to use another set of components!! Who pays for those marketing guys?? Microsoft? Don't try the AI until u get ride of the NS!! -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Arno Garrels Enviado el: Jueves, 07 de Septiembre de 2006 16:11 Para: ICS support mailing Asunto: Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo Jack wrote: If you think about it, the whole point of having the free version is to get people interested and get beginners started. Now they have to create the components by code ... wise decision :) [OT] I agree with you. Especially the beginners use to use plenty of third party components, one of the reasons why Delphi became so popular has been always the huge amount of third perty components available. --- Arno Garrels [TeamICS] http://www.overbyte.be/eng/overbyte/teamics.html -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
That's amazing! An excellent tool for beginners that requires a (somewhat) deep knowledge only to use another set of components!! The beginners are not expected to be creating complex applications needing third party components with the 'free' version, they are expected to buy Turbo Professional, which is essentially the same price and concept as Delphi 6 and 7 Professional, before it got bloated with .net stuff and other languages as Borland Development Studio. Who pays for those marketing guys?? Microsoft? If you could create complex commercial applications with the 'free' version, few people would buy Delphi, and the marketing guys would not get paid. Borland only has it's tools revenue to survive. Microsoft hands out Express versions of it's .net tools, probably because it knows few people would otherwise buy them. It does not provide Win32 tools free. And of course it has a few billion dollars of OS revenue to subsidise these Express tools. Personally, I think Borland should have limited the 'free' version in the number of components on a form, or forms in a project, or similar, so that only simple applications can be created. Angus -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
Dear sir Beginners DON'T CREATE COMPLEX COMMERCIAL APPS You need freedom for create not artificial restrictions. Another tools like Trolltech QT have two licenses modes and two 'packages' But I'm afraid this is becoming a big offtopic so I'm done with it -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd Enviado el: Jueves, 07 de Septiembre de 2006 17:08 Para: twsocket@elists.org Asunto: Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo That's amazing! An excellent tool for beginners that requires a (somewhat) deep knowledge only to use another set of components!! The beginners are not expected to be creating complex applications needing third party components with the 'free' version, they are expected to buy Turbo Professional, which is essentially the same price and concept as Delphi 6 and 7 Professional, before it got bloated with .net stuff and other languages as Borland Development Studio. Who pays for those marketing guys?? Microsoft? If you could create complex commercial applications with the 'free' version, few people would buy Delphi, and the marketing guys would not get paid. Borland only has it's tools revenue to survive. Microsoft hands out Express versions of it's .net tools, probably because it knows few people would otherwise buy them. It does not provide Win32 tools free. And of course it has a few billion dollars of OS revenue to subsidise these Express tools. Personally, I think Borland should have limited the 'free' version in the number of components on a form, or forms in a project, or similar, so that only simple applications can be created. Angus -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
I'm really sad for Borland another chance stupidly wasted... Who was the genius that creates the non-extensibility idioturbo model I totally disagree. This is an awesome *FREE* deal for people who want to start to develop their own apps, or create quick-and-dirty tools. The component set that is included with the free version is pretty comprehensive. It will let hobbyists get started with the languages and the UI, and then they can upgrade to the Pro version (which I believe will only cost around $300.00) to be able to add 3rd party components. For those of us that remember programming in Turbo Pascal 20 years ago, this is a return to their roots, and anyone who thinks they are stupid for offering a free development environment that is slick and produces pretty fast code probably isn't their target market. -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
Re: [twsocket] [OT] Borland Turbo
I wonder why Overbyte does not give the ICS code to be included in the standard package? Borland will never package ICS in Delphi without proper documentation and a full and up to date help file, and that's as far off as ever. It should not even be on the companion disks without documentation. Angus -- To unsubscribe or change your settings for TWSocket mailing list please goto http://www.elists.org/mailman/listinfo/twsocket Visit our website at http://www.overbyte.be
