Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
Tony As always, you make some good points. I think maybe we I was wrong to talk about 'marketing' - a better word would have been 'awareness'. That's what we (U2UG) have to get to grips with, and haven't yet. One of the questions I hear all too often - and I'm sure others on the list do as well - is 'who else is using this?'. (and too often from senior managers who haven't heard of the technology and want to close it down). We all know, individually, that this is a thriving platform, powering applications in every business vertical and of every size. But the problem has always been the same - most MV developers feel they part of an isolated community, lone voices crying in the wilderness. We've spoken in the past about the age profile of the community as a cause for concern because we're not reaching younger developers. Not making the platform seem sexy. Frankly, the vendors and vars aren't going to solve these issues, for the reasons that George highlighted. So who will? Where groups like U2UG should be leading, is in making their presence felt and providing an opportunity for building that awareness. An in that I have to return to my main point - it's not the 9 people on board who matter, it's the users of the technology getting in contact with us and making use of us. Maybe the technology is so perfect that we don't need any changes (!) - but even if that were the case, we want/need people to know that there are others out there using this. So how do we go about that? (without spending money..) I've posted about the education agenda, trying to show what the technology can achieve. That's the first step - there is no point welcoming people to a technology they can't see or know where to begin. Then there's the wider context - one of the encouraging signs has been the growth in the number of blogs regarding multivalue. I would like to see the next stage translating into things such as postings on Code Project (which just about every other developer reads) and Tech Republic; kicking off some genuinely useful open source projects (watch this space!); postings to the website; discussions around the new features that have been/are being added to the products. Things that can show that this technology is alive. In today's world every post, every blog, every tweet, every article, every public discussion is a form of marketing. Just getting out there are saying - hey, I implemented SSL on UniVerse (and it worked) - is valuable. You can draw a comparison between our community and the PHP community. Like us, PHP was swimming against the tide and like us, does many things that the rest of the IT world is sometimes (and almost always wrongly) sniffy about. Like multivalue it can easily solve issues in ways that are usually simpler, faster and require less effort than the alternatives. It's never going to be the dominant technology, but it has a strong user base and strong awareness. Oh, and Microsoft is releasing a version for .NET. Of course, there are three key differences: It's open source, so anyone can play. It doesn't carry a lot of legacy. And the people who first used it were enthusiastic and told the world about it. That's what we're missing. Go Forth And Post. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
On 15/03/2011 20:04, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/15/2011 5:10:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: Plus of course, since we don't charge fees, we don't have any budget to advertise our presence! Why isn't Rocket themselves giving a budget? A big part of the reason is that the user group is not a properly constituted organisation in the sense of being a corporation or other legal entity that can hold money. Whilst incorporation has been a topic over the years there are difficulties within it, not least where to incorporate and the problems inherent in being an international group. So don't blame Rocket for not providing a budget, if they provided money we don't have the ability to accept it. George Land U2 User Group Board Member ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
Dan raise some interesting questions and I thought I would put down some answer below to the points he raised. However the issue here is not the effectiveness of the board, but we as a community. After a number of years as second fiddle through Informix and IBM, we have all developed a siege mentality, just trying to justify why U2 should continue. We see the emails of the CEO wanting to replace the U2 application with SAP and Oracle and there is this morbid acceptance that U2 will lose out. To me the siege is over, the gates are open and U2 is on the attack with RDBMs on the run. I have developed a new application in U2 and I am selling and beating the big names as many other ISVs are. In tough times, U2 enables me to succeed when my competitors are going out of business. Rocket is an exciting new opportunity, we already have DataVu as a result of that marriage. I have even been talking to the guys at Rocket about selling U2 with CorVu. I am excited with the opportunity that is out there to be grabbed, but that excitement is not in the community. I can be the greatest evangelist for U2, but I am not going to win the world over by myself. If people are thinking that a director of the U2UG is going to be the panacea for change, it is not likely to happen, we are volunteers with limited time and resources. However in Egypt the masses changed a government and that is what is needed here, enthusiasm and excitement of the group. These are my thoughts to some of the issues raised. *What do you see as the most important role of the U2UG? The U2UG plays a number of important roles to empower users to develop their skills, improve their career opportunities, spread the message and enhance the U2 products. Some of the issues that I have worked on within the user group has included working to open the U2 knowledge base that had been previously been restricted to licensed users, in lobbying management in IBM and Informix to recognise the U2 technology and issues such as connection pooling and better documentation. These were made possible by showing solidarity of a passionate group of users. *How do you see the International User Group supporting existing local user groups and helping establish new local user groups? I have run user groups in the past and the changing nature of the industry has caused many traditional user groups to decline. Due to the wide geographic spread of users, those outside of major centres were disadvantaged. This is why I was involved in founding the international U2UG to try and provide all U2 users benefits through the internet rather than just person to person in major centres. However I believe U2UG should support and encourage those who want to run regional user groups and provide advertising through the web site to those meeting. *What do you think can be done to attract new developers ISVs to U2 and where do you see the role of the U2UG in this? New technologies such as DataVu will enhance the attractiveness of the product to new users and I like other Directors have been working with Rocket to enhance these products. As an ISV myself and having developed a new product with U2 technology I believe I have some understanding how we can attract new developers and I as other directors have worked towards attracting new developers with actions such as the incubator project. *What do you hope to achieve by the end of this term if you are elected and how do you see it benefiting the community? How will you measure your success in this? This is actually a good question. The success of the user group is not in the activities of its directors, but in the activities of its community. Something like the Microsoft MSDN community it has a life of its own, there are really no key people driving it. What I believe is more the role of directors is to enable and facilitate the user community to have a life of its own. We are more capable as a group than as individuals. Success is not in what the directors do, it is in what the community does. I think success is when directors are no longer needed to ensure an active group. *What specifically do you think will increase the active member-base of the U2UG and how do you intend to monitor this? Again this is a question that needs to be turned around. An increased active member base, new ISVs, getting the message out, these are not the role of directors, this is the role of all of those involved in the U2 community. If you earn a living from U2, then you need to assist in making U2 prosperous for your own benefit. If the only thing driving the U2UG are the directors, then we have lost. The directors role needs to be encouragement, coordination and enablement, not about being a one man band to solve all problems. As a USA President said, 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'. So the answer is not what I can do to do to
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
In a message dated 3/18/2011 4:24:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes: A big part of the reason is that the user group is not a properly constituted organisation in the sense of being a corporation or other legal entity that can hold money. Whilst incorporation has been a topic over the years there are difficulties within it, not least where to incorporate and the problems inherent in being an international group. So don't blame Rocket for not providing a budget, if they provided money we don't have the ability to accept it. Not relevant. Rocket can provide a *budget* item, which the U2UG could *direct* without the U2UG ever actually holding the money. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
Not relevant. Rocket can provide a *budget* item, which the U2UG could *direct* without the U2UG ever actually holding the money. Speaking as a member of the U2 user group board I think I represent the views of the whole board when I say that we have no issues whatsoever with the support that we receive from Rocket. There is a senior representative on hand at every board meeting, we have access to software, to people and to resources. The limitations of the user group are entirely due to the limited time that board members have to spend on it and are nothing to do with Rocket. So please let's not make out that any perceived problems with the user group stem from Rocket, they don't. If we want a better user group we need more people to be engaged with it, you don't need to be on the board to help, again I'm sure that I speak for the entire board when I say that we would welcome any help that anyone is willing to give. George Land U2 User Group Board Member ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
In a message dated 3/18/2011 10:23:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes: Speaking as a member of the U2 user group board I think I represent the views of the whole board when I say that we have no issues whatsoever with the support that we receive from Rocket. There is a senior representative on hand at every board meeting, we have access to software, to people and to resources. The limitations of the user group are entirely due to the limited time that board members have to spend on it and are nothing to do with Rocket. So please let's not make out that any perceived problems with the user group stem from Rocket, they don't. If we want a better user group we need more people to be engaged with it, you don't need to be on the board to help, again I'm sure that I speak for the entire board when I say that we would welcome any help that anyone is willing to give. Any group is only as effective as the resources they have at their disposal, including money. So yes, without money I'm going to be pointing fingers at Rocket to ask, where's the financial support Rocket? Resources without financial resources, are not a full set of resources. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
On 18/03/2011 17:53, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote: Any group is only as effective as the resources they have at their disposal, including money. So yes, without money I'm going to be pointing fingers at Rocket to ask, where's the financial support Rocket? Are you being deliberately perverse or do you have some axe to grind with Rocket? You clearly have no idea what Rocket does for the user group and despite being told that we can't take money but instead Rocket provides other resources with which we are very happy you still say 'where's the financial support?' Let's be clear about this - the support that we have asked for has been provided. There is nothing that we are being held back from doing due to lack of support from Rocket. What the group needs is not support from Rocket, we have that, it is the active participation of U2 users willing to put their time where their mouths are and contribute to what the group is doing. If you want to contribute start putting some ideas forward and volunteering time to put them into action. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
In a message dated 3/18/2011 1:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes: Are you being deliberately perverse or do you have some axe to grind with Rocket? Yes be sure to throw an ad hominem attack in there to try to convince the reading audience not to listen. You clearly have no idea what Rocket does for the user group and despite being told that we can't take money but instead Rocket provides other resources with which we are very happy you still say 'where's the financial support?' Asked and answered. A group doesn't need to take money, in order to use money. Address that. Why doesn't Rocket have a budget earmarked Money to be used to support the U2 user group's activities? Why? Let's be clear about this - the support that we have asked for has been provided. There is nothing that we are being held back from doing due to lack of support from Rocket. Then you need to ask for more. Clearly the current strategy is not working. What the group needs is not support from Rocket, we have that, it is the active participation of U2 users willing to put their time where their mouths are and contribute to what the group is doing. If you want to contribute start putting some ideas forward and volunteering time to put them into action. Sure let's continue a strategy that doesn't work. That is a great marketing approach. On your next point, I volunteer more time to promote MV than most. I'm not willing at all, to promote Rocket at the expense of other MV Vendors, as a volunteer with no support from Rocket themselves. Clearly you have no idea what I do, or what I've been doing. Maybe you should figure that out first, before you go spouting off about what you think I should be doing. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
On 18/03/2011 21:49, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/18/2011 1:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes: Are you being deliberately perverse or do you have some axe to grind with Rocket? Yes be sure to throw an ad hominem attack in there to try to convince the reading audience not to listen. Not sure what element of that was 'ad hominem', but if that's how you want to take it that is up to you. You clearly have no idea what Rocket does for the user group and despite being told that we can't take money but instead Rocket provides other resources with which we are very happy you still say 'where's the financial support?' Asked and answered. A group doesn't need to take money, in order to use money. Address that. Why doesn't Rocket have a budget earmarked Money to be used to support the U2 user group's activities? Why? Why do you think Rocket doesn't have a budget earmarked for user group activities? You clearly have no idea what involvement they have in their user group. Let's be clear about this - the support that we have asked for has been provided. There is nothing that we are being held back from doing due to lack of support from Rocket. Then you need to ask for more. Clearly the current strategy is not working. Why ask for more, what would we do with it? What activities do you think the user group should be doing that are restricted by lack of money? We are a user group, not a body dedicated to marketing a technology. What the group needs is not support from Rocket, we have that, it is the active participation of U2 users willing to put their time where their mouths are and contribute to what the group is doing. If you want to contribute start putting some ideas forward and volunteering time to put them into action. Sure let's continue a strategy that doesn't work. That is a great marketing approach. On your next point, I volunteer more time to promote MV than most. I'm not willing at all, to promote Rocket at the expense of other MV Vendors, as a volunteer with no support from Rocket themselves. Clearly you have no idea what I do, or what I've been doing. Maybe you should figure that out first, before you go spouting off about what you think I should be doing. I have no idea who you are, you hide behind a meaningless name - ft2...@aol.com - you could be anyone. OK, so you don't want to promote Rocket, let's remember that this is a U2 user group we are talking about. It's not a Pick user group, an MV user group, a jbase user group, an Intersystems user group. It is U2, that is Rocket and Rocket support their own user group. It sounds to me like you are someone whose involvement in MV has a bias towards the non-U2 side, that is your choice but have you discussed with anyone at Rocket what their strategy is? Do you have any information about what they are doing? U2 is sold OEM, license numbers are growing, revenues are growing, ISVs are prospering. OK, so there are less companies doing their own in house development, but that is the way the market is moving. Today it is increasingly about selling applications, not databases or development tools and as a specialist at selling OEM that is good for Rocket and U2. So you think it's a strategy that doesn't work, well that's your choice, but you probably have no sight of sales figures, no idea of licenses sold, no information on which to make that judgment. George Land Chairman APT Solutions Ltd Rocket U2 UK Distributor U2UG Board Member ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment
In a message dated 3/18/2011 3:34:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
On 18/03/2011 21:49, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/18/2011 1:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Are you being deliberately perverse or do you have some axe to grind
with
Rocket?
Yes be sure to throw an ad hominem attack in there to try to convince
the
reading audience not to listen.
Not sure what element of that was 'ad hominem', but if that's how you want
to take it that is up to you.
The element that says you... you... some personality trait you are
perverse you have an axe to grind.
That's ad hominem. If you have an issue with my argument, than address the
argument, not my person.
You clearly have no idea what Rocket does for the user group and
despite
being told that we can't take money but instead Rocket provides other
resources with which we are very happy you still say 'where's the
financial
support?'
Asked and answered. A group doesn't need to take money, in order to
use money. Address that.
Why doesn't Rocket have a budget earmarked Money to be used to support
the
U2 user group's activities?
Why?
Why do you think Rocket doesn't have a budget earmarked for user group
activities? You clearly have no idea what involvement they have in their
user group.
Again it's not about their involvement only about their financial
involvement.
Let's be clear about this - the support that we have asked for has been
provided. There is nothing that we are being held back from doing due
to
lack of support from Rocket.
Then you need to ask for more. Clearly the current strategy is not
working.
Why ask for more, what would we do with it? What activities do you think
the user group should be doing that are restricted by lack of money? We
are a user group, not a body dedicated to marketing a technology.
Outreach. Outreach. and Outreach.
What the group needs is not support from Rocket, we have that, it is
the
active participation of U2 users willing to put their time where their
mouths are and contribute to what the group is doing. If you want to
contribute start putting some ideas forward and volunteering time to
put
them into action.
Sure let's continue a strategy that doesn't work. That is a great
marketing approach.
On your next point, I volunteer more time to promote MV than most. I'm
not
willing at all, to promote Rocket at the expense of other MV Vendors, as
a
volunteer with no support from Rocket themselves.
Clearly you have no idea what I do, or what I've been doing.
Maybe you should figure that out first, before you go spouting off about
what you think I should be doing.
I have no idea who you are, you hide behind a meaningless name -
ft2...@aol.com - you could be anyone. OK, so you don't want to promote
Rocket, let's remember that this is a U2 user group we are talking about.
It's not a Pick user group, an MV user group, a jbase user group, an
Intersystems user group. It is U2, that is Rocket and Rocket support
their
own user group.
It sounds to me like you are someone whose involvement in MV has a bias
towards the non-U2 side, that is your choice but have you discussed with
anyone at Rocket what their strategy is? Do you have any information
about
what they are doing?
U2 is sold OEM, license numbers are growing, revenues are growing, ISVs
are
prospering. OK, so there are less companies doing their own in house
development, but that is the way the market is moving. Today it is
increasingly about selling applications, not databases or development
tools
and as a specialist at selling OEM that is good for Rocket and U2. So you
think it's a strategy that doesn't work, well that's your choice, but you
probably have no sight of sales figures, no idea of licenses sold, no
information on which to make that judgment.
My name is not meaningless.
And there is a difference between what the *group* does and what *I* do.
I do not have an bias away from U2, or toward anything non-U2.
I see no point in discussing with anyone at Rocket what their strategy
is, since my entire point is, outreach.
Outreach is not inreach. If I have to contact them, that's not outreach is
it?
To your claim that license numbers are growing I have to respond
{{fact}}.
I've seen no evidence of that. What's your evidence.
If you want to demonstrate your claims, than do so with sources.
Anyone can make claims. I can claim just as easily that everything you've
said is exactly upside-down.
Claims are not worth the air into which they are propelled.
W
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment - The I-Beam
I learned about the I-Beam of Interpersonal Communications at a ToastMasters meeting. The idea is to stop using the word you altogether. Easier said than done. The beauty of the I-Beam is that it removes blaming others. Thus... I wish that Rocket would see that 123 and then did ABC along the lines of XYZ... I am in favor of... I am not in favor of... are decent I-Beam constructs. On the other hand... YOU are a dirty rotten bungling oaf and it is all YOUR fault. This of course not I-Beam. It uses the inflamatory blame word (YOU). The word YOU is toxic. --Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment - The I-Beam
Bill: My wife has reminded me of this fact for years!I hardly know what the word you means anymore. :-) Bill On 3/18/2011 5:14 PM, Bill Brutzman wrote: I learned about the I-Beam of Interpersonal Communications at a ToastMasters meeting. The idea is to stop using the word you altogether. Easier said than done. The beauty of the I-Beam is that it removes blaming others. Thus... I wish that Rocket would see that 123 and then did ABC along the lines of XYZ... I am in favor of... I am not in favor of... are decent I-Beam constructs. On the other hand... YOU are a dirty rotten bungling oaf and it is all YOUR fault. This of course not I-Beam. It uses the inflamatory blame word (YOU). The word YOU is toxic. --Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment - The I-Beam
Good point, Bill, I think one sometimes uses you when one means someone other than themselves, without intending to pin the reader with the crime being mentioned. The English language does not differentiate plural, general you from singular, specific you (unless you're from the deep south, in which case you have the unique y'all, which oddly enough I've always heard used as the singular, specific form.) For instance, I might have written: I think you sometimes use you when you mean someone other than yourself... :) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment - The I-Beam I learned about the I-Beam of Interpersonal Communications at a ToastMasters meeting. The idea is to stop using the word you altogether. Easier said than done. The beauty of the I-Beam is that it removes blaming others. Thus... I wish that Rocket would see that 123 and then did ABC along the lines of XYZ... I am in favor of... I am not in favor of... are decent I-Beam constructs. On the other hand... YOU are a dirty rotten bungling oaf and it is all YOUR fault. This of course not I-Beam. It uses the inflamatory blame word (YOU). The word YOU is toxic. --Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] U2UG Elections 2010 - Request For Comment - The I-Beam
Hi Bill, First, I believe what you say. I just find it hard to accept that ToastMasters, a fine and well-respected organization, would want everyone to always say I, and never say you. Personally, if someone I was dealing with constantly said I this and I that, I would tune them out very quickly. Most people would rather hear about themselves than the speaker. Now, denigrating someone while saying you is something else again. So, the context of the message is the important thing, not being sure never to say you. Just my 2 cents - admittedly 2 cents is not worth much these days. ;-) All that being said, I have read your posts often over the years, and find you to be both knowledgeable and honorable. Oops, should I not have said you there? big good old southern boy grin Charlie Noah Charles W. Noah Associates cwn...@comcast.net The views and opinions expressed herein are my own (Charlie Noah) and do not necessarily reflect the views, positions or policies of any of my former, current or future employers, employees, clients, friends, enemies or anyone else who might take exception to them. On 03-18-2011 7:14 PM, Bill Brutzman wrote: I learned about the I-Beam of Interpersonal Communications at a ToastMasters meeting. The idea is to stop using the word you altogether. Easier said than done. The beauty of the I-Beam is that it removes blaming others. Thus... I wish that Rocket would see that 123 and then did ABC along the lines of XYZ... I am in favor of... I am not in favor of... are decent I-Beam constructs. On the other hand... YOU are a dirty rotten bungling oaf and it is all YOUR fault. This of course not I-Beam. It uses the inflamatory blame word (YOU). The word YOU is toxic. --Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
