RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Hi Craig I don't follow your issue. WebShare is the licensing for the client to access the database server wherever the client is. The Web Server accesses UniVerse through the WebShare and consumes the licenses appropriately. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill H. Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 4:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Craig: Your right. I think you can get a webshare site license for $15,000 - $20,000. But this doesn't help when you want to provide web services to multiple clients who have our software on each of their machines because RedBack is licensed at the dbms end not the web server end. :-( Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Bennett Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 5:00 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Bill, If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! my understanding is that each webshare can service 20-25 users and once you buy a certain number of webshares (my memory says 11, but I could be wrong) you are treated as having an unlimited number of shares. Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Speaking of license issues... Today wasn't the best of days for us and it all started somewhere around midnight (EDT). We suspect what happened was sometime around Mar. 27th, our former unix administrator was freeing up some physical disk space and move our /usr/ud subdirectory (UDTHOME). As most of you know, anytime this directory is moved, Unidata's license becomes--for whatever reason--corrupted forcing it to have to be relicensed within 30 days or 'udt' will stop running. Well, that's what happened to us, we think. We were fortunately able to recover by running 'confprod' and relicensing/authorizing Unidata. Redback on the other hand, different scenario and the guys at IBM who are reading this can probably vouch that I had a rough morning and early afternoon. Not so fortunate, the end resolution to our RedBack licensing issues was to reinstall RedBack...oh, did I mention this all happened in our prod environment!! Ok, making a long story short, DO NOT move /usr/ud unless you absolutely know that you must relicense and if you unix administrator does this sort of thing to your U2 environment, slap his wrist. (stepping off my soap box now) Andy P.S. Could we let this thread die now? ;-) On 4/26/05, David Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Craig I don't follow your issue. WebShare is the licensing for the client to access the database server wherever the client is. The Web Server accesses UniVerse through the WebShare and consumes the licenses appropriately. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill H. Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 4:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Craig: Your right. I think you can get a webshare site license for $15,000 - $20,000. But this doesn't help when you want to provide web services to multiple clients who have our software on each of their machines because RedBack is licensed at the dbms end not the web server end. :-( Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Bennett Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 5:00 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Bill, If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! my understanding is that each webshare can service 20-25 users and once you buy a certain number of webshares (my memory says 11, but I could be wrong) you are treated as having an unlimited number of shares. Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
David, I don't have an issue :) I was responding to Bill's comments about the cost of redback. I think redback is great. I also think IBM haven't really thought through MQ and MQ licence implications properly. If they were to say iPhantoms use a licence so whatever you do with iPhantoms you can be sure you are licensed correctly I would feel comfortable; but the current answer from Leroy seems to be If a user interactive application sends a request and expects a response via MQ then it may be possible to violate your licence. I can think of very few applications which aren't user interactive at some point ... so how do I decide how to licence UV? Craig David Jordan wrote: Hi Craig I don't follow your issue. WebShare is the licensing for the client to access the database server wherever the client is. The Web Server accesses UniVerse through the WebShare and consumes the licenses appropriately. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill H. Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 4:48 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Craig: Your right. I think you can get a webshare site license for $15,000 - $20,000. But this doesn't help when you want to provide web services to multiple clients who have our software on each of their machines because RedBack is licensed at the dbms end not the web server end. :-( Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Bennett Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 5:00 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Bill, If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! my understanding is that each webshare can service 20-25 users and once you buy a certain number of webshares (my memory says 11, but I could be wrong) you are treated as having an unlimited number of shares. Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
David: Remember, with an unlimited user CPU license there is no requirement for pooling; as the connections don't run up against any licensing restrictions. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Jordan Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:11 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} [snipped] RedBack does more than provide a pooling mechanism it also handles scheduling, performance monitoring, status and other facilities one would require for a pooling application which is all included in the price. With an SQL Server application, one would have to add that functionality into the design of the client server application which RedBack looks after for the developer. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
SQL Server is an environment. It has it's own scripting language (T-SQL), and editor/manager (Enterprise Manager), so they are eminently comparable (I don't know why you would need a programming language AND a scripting language). I have not found it to be slower than Unidata in any way, and it is certainly not less flexible (I have found nothing in Unidata that cannot be done in SQL Server). Where SQL Server beats Unidata hands down is support and resources. However, as for usage, I think the differences are mainly cosmetic, depending on what a person is used to. If cost is the main factor, then MySQL, Ingres, or Postgre are all reliable open source db's. JohnA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Key Ally Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 11:46 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} SQL Server fans, To be fair, UniVerse and UniData aren't just Datastores, they are environments. SQL Server is a starting point. So, if you want to buy SQL server, and buy or freeware a programing language, and buy or freeware a scripting language, and buy or freeware an editor, etc... then you can compare them. Additionally, SQL Server forces you to work exclusively in first normal form, which is slower, creates bloated (comparatively) data storage, and less flexible. U2 is certainly not the cheapest solution, neither is it the most expensive. If cost is the issue, there are databases that are even cheaper than SQL Server. I've used MyBase for some small projects (no cost to redistribute). Still, after 20 years, I find that U2, jBASE, OpenInsight, and all the other multivalues end up cheaper than cobbling together tools that aren't optimized for each other. - Chuck Been Flat, Didn't Like It Barouch Bill H. wrote: Cliff: With SQL Server, you also need one or two CAL's (Client Access Licenses) per named user (not concurrent). Plus I believe the more full-featured server versions are more expensive on the server side. A quick look on Google and you'll find an SQL Server Enterprise for $2,000 - $5,000. This product is very inexpensive. It is an unlimited client/device licensing model for a defined number of CPUs. Here's a pretty good whitepaper from Microsoft about the various costs associated with SQL Server, Oracle, and DB2. http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/0/a/10adfeca-48f4-4d89-949a-04 167d6 54b40/SQL_UnderstandingDBPricing.doc This gives a small example of a price comparison: Tier Features Sample ProductsPrice FreeLimited database Microsoft SQL Desktop $ 0 functionality, Memory Engine (MSDE) Limits, database size limits, etc. Basic Basic database function- MS SQL Server WkGrp Edition$ 500 - ality, Basic security Oracle Std Edition One 5,000 Up to 2 CPUs DB2 Expressper CPU StdFull database function-MS SQL Server Std Edition $5,000 - ality, Basic ManagementOracle Std Edition 15,000 Tools, Up to 4 CPUs DB2 WkGrp Edition per CPU Enterprise High availability MS SQL Server Enterprise $20,000 - Scalability Oracle Enterprise 40,000 High-end mgmt tools DB2 Enterprise per CPU Enterprise security No CPU limit As you can see a basic dbms access model over the web costs about $500 - 5,000 per CPU ! A full featured standard model costs about $5,000 - 15,000 per CPU. Of course, Microsoft products can be purchased from other vendors other than from Microsoft so significant discounts are available. In the above referenced paper, Microsoft also talks about additional costs such as support and service packs. Very interesting reading. I am confident IBM is well aware of MS SQL and Oracle server and client DB licensing models since DB2 plays in the same space. And they've begun playing. I know way too many people using SQL Server in the small to medium business end of the market to accept the notion that Microsoft stinks. From what I learned it is excellent software at a great price. In fact, I've started using it myself for some conversions we're doing on our application. Now all we have to do is get the U2 products priced reasonably and all the software mvDbms developers have developed over the years can be exposed over the web. :-) Bill ...Bill H. wrote: If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! Let's see...SQL Server unlimited site license (single CPU) for $5,000. Sounds like this is an invitation to get off the U2 products...or do I have this completely miscalculated? Bill -Original Message- from Leroy Dreyfuss The answer here
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Bill, If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! my understanding is that each webshare can service 20-25 users and once you buy a certain number of webshares (my memory says 11, but I could be wrong) you are treated as having an unlimited number of shares. Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Hi Craig A webshare is a pooling license. It allows multiple queries against 1 UniVerse User. The number of users that can use a webshare are dependant on performance of the application, ie it could be 5 to 1000. You purchase the number of webshares required to achieve an acceptable level of performance for the number of hits you will have against the database. It is not user count dependent. RedBack does more than provide a pooling mechanism it also handles scheduling, performance monitoring, status and other facilities one would require for a pooling application which is all included in the price. With an SQL Server application, one would have to add that functionality into the design of the client server application which RedBack looks after for the developer. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Bennett Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 10:00 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified} Bill, If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! my understanding is that each webshare can service 20-25 users and once you buy a certain number of webshares (my memory says 11, but I could be wrong) you are treated as having an unlimited number of shares. Craig --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
SQL Server fans, To be fair, UniVerse and UniData aren't just Datastores, they are environments. SQL Server is a starting point. So, if you want to buy SQL server, and buy or freeware a programing language, and buy or freeware a scripting language, and buy or freeware an editor, etc... then you can compare them. Additionally, SQL Server forces you to work exclusively in first normal form, which is slower, creates bloated (comparatively) data storage, and less flexible. U2 is certainly not the cheapest solution, neither is it the most expensive. If cost is the issue, there are databases that are even cheaper than SQL Server. I've used MyBase for some small projects (no cost to redistribute). Still, after 20 years, I find that U2, jBASE, OpenInsight, and all the other multivalues end up cheaper than cobbling together tools that aren't optimized for each other. - Chuck Been Flat, Didn't Like It Barouch Bill H. wrote: Cliff: With SQL Server, you also need one or two CAL's (Client Access Licenses) per named user (not concurrent). Plus I believe the more full-featured server versions are more expensive on the server side. A quick look on Google and you'll find an SQL Server Enterprise for $2,000 - $5,000. This product is very inexpensive. It is an unlimited client/device licensing model for a defined number of CPUs. Here's a pretty good whitepaper from Microsoft about the various costs associated with SQL Server, Oracle, and DB2. http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/0/a/10adfeca-48f4-4d89-949a-04167d6 54b40/SQL_UnderstandingDBPricing.doc This gives a small example of a price comparison: Tier Features Sample ProductsPrice FreeLimited database Microsoft SQL Desktop $ 0 functionality, Memory Engine (MSDE) Limits, database size limits, etc. Basic Basic database function- MS SQL Server WkGrp Edition$ 500 - ality, Basic security Oracle Std Edition One 5,000 Up to 2 CPUs DB2 Expressper CPU StdFull database function-MS SQL Server Std Edition $5,000 - ality, Basic ManagementOracle Std Edition 15,000 Tools, Up to 4 CPUs DB2 WkGrp Edition per CPU Enterprise High availability MS SQL Server Enterprise $20,000 - Scalability Oracle Enterprise 40,000 High-end mgmt tools DB2 Enterprise per CPU Enterprise security No CPU limit As you can see a basic dbms access model over the web costs about $500 - 5,000 per CPU ! A full featured standard model costs about $5,000 - 15,000 per CPU. Of course, Microsoft products can be purchased from other vendors other than from Microsoft so significant discounts are available. In the above referenced paper, Microsoft also talks about additional costs such as support and service packs. Very interesting reading. I am confident IBM is well aware of MS SQL and Oracle server and client DB licensing models since DB2 plays in the same space. And they've begun playing. I know way too many people using SQL Server in the small to medium business end of the market to accept the notion that Microsoft stinks. From what I learned it is excellent software at a great price. In fact, I've started using it myself for some conversions we're doing on our application. Now all we have to do is get the U2 products priced reasonably and all the software mvDbms developers have developed over the years can be exposed over the web. :-) Bill ...Bill H. wrote: If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! Let's see...SQL Server unlimited site license (single CPU) for $5,000. Sounds like this is an invitation to get off the U2 products...or do I have this completely miscalculated? Bill -Original Message- from Leroy Dreyfuss The answer here is RedBack. It is designed for exactly this purpose. We have customers servicing millions of requests per day on a hundred or less Webshares. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Millions (plural) of DB requests per day will require serious infrastructure regardless of middleware platform. Plus there's always the last-day-of-quarter discount with IBM. 8-) With SQL Server, you also need one or two CAL's (Client Access Licenses) per named user (not concurrent). Plus I believe the more full-featured server versions are more expensive on the server side. I am confident IBM is well aware of MS SQL and Oracle server and client DB licensing models since DB2 plays in the same space. Leroy, thanks for providing some interpretation of current licensing terms and some scenarios. Could you please give us details (including pricing) for the forthcoming UniObjects pooling mechanism as soon as you are able? That, plus some detailed implementation scenarios, will let everyone on the list understand options in the near future. Regards, Cliff Bill H. wrote: If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! Let's see...SQL Server unlimited site license (single CPU) for $5,000. Sounds like this is an invitation to get off the U2 products...or do I have this completely miscalculated? Bill -Original Message- from Leroy Dreyfuss The answer here is RedBack. It is designed for exactly this purpose. We have customers servicing millions of requests per day on a hundred or less Webshares. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
Cliff: With SQL Server, you also need one or two CAL's (Client Access Licenses) per named user (not concurrent). Plus I believe the more full-featured server versions are more expensive on the server side. A quick look on Google and you'll find an SQL Server Enterprise for $2,000 - $5,000. This product is very inexpensive. It is an unlimited client/device licensing model for a defined number of CPUs. Here's a pretty good whitepaper from Microsoft about the various costs associated with SQL Server, Oracle, and DB2. http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/0/a/10adfeca-48f4-4d89-949a-04167d6 54b40/SQL_UnderstandingDBPricing.doc This gives a small example of a price comparison: Tier Features Sample ProductsPrice Free Limited database Microsoft SQL Desktop $ 0 functionality, Memory Engine (MSDE) Limits, database size limits, etc. Basic Basic database function- MS SQL Server WkGrp Edition$ 500 - ality, Basic security Oracle Std Edition One 5,000 Up to 2 CPUs DB2 Expressper CPU StdFull database function-MS SQL Server Std Edition $5,000 - ality, Basic ManagementOracle Std Edition 15,000 Tools, Up to 4 CPUs DB2 WkGrp Edition per CPU Enterprise High availability MS SQL Server Enterprise $20,000 - Scalability Oracle Enterprise 40,000 High-end mgmt tools DB2 Enterprise per CPU Enterprise security No CPU limit As you can see a basic dbms access model over the web costs about $500 - 5,000 per CPU ! A full featured standard model costs about $5,000 - 15,000 per CPU. Of course, Microsoft products can be purchased from other vendors other than from Microsoft so significant discounts are available. In the above referenced paper, Microsoft also talks about additional costs such as support and service packs. Very interesting reading. I am confident IBM is well aware of MS SQL and Oracle server and client DB licensing models since DB2 plays in the same space. And they've begun playing. I know way too many people using SQL Server in the small to medium business end of the market to accept the notion that Microsoft stinks. From what I learned it is excellent software at a great price. In fact, I've started using it myself for some conversions we're doing on our application. Now all we have to do is get the U2 products priced reasonably and all the software mvDbms developers have developed over the years can be exposed over the web. :-) Bill ...Bill H. wrote: If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! Let's see...SQL Server unlimited site license (single CPU) for $5,000. Sounds like this is an invitation to get off the U2 products...or do I have this completely miscalculated? Bill -Original Message- from Leroy Dreyfuss The answer here is RedBack. It is designed for exactly this purpose. We have customers servicing millions of requests per day on a hundred or less Webshares. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [Fwd: Re: [U2] IBM Licensing Requirement - MQ Series] {Unclassified}
What is the definition of a webshare ? Cliff Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Millions (plural) of DB requests per day will require serious infrastructure regardless of middleware platform. Plus there's always the last-day-of-quarter discount with IBM. 8-) With SQL Server, you also need one or two CAL's (Client Access Licenses) per named user (not concurrent). Plus I believe the more full-featured server versions are more expensive on the server side. I am confident IBM is well aware of MS SQL and Oracle server and client DB licensing models since DB2 plays in the same space. Leroy, thanks for providing some interpretation of current licensing terms and some scenarios. Could you please give us details (including pricing) for the forthcoming UniObjects pooling mechanism as soon as you are able? That, plus some detailed implementation scenarios, will let everyone on the list understand options in the near future. Regards, Cliff Bill H. wrote: If I figure correctly, a hundred webshares cost $150,000 at $1,500 per webshare retail! Let's see...SQL Server unlimited site license (single CPU) for $5,000. Sounds like this is an invitation to get off the U2 products...or do I have this completely miscalculated? Bill -Original Message- from Leroy Dreyfuss The answer here is RedBack. It is designed for exactly this purpose. We have customers servicing millions of requests per day on a hundred or less Webshares. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/