RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? {Unclassified}
Better still...
The U2UG are launching a Wiki Real Soon Now (we've already got it on the
site, we're getting user feedback on the one we've chosen). There are a couple
of annoyances though, so we're not done with the final decision.
However
An article on different ways of doing backups would make an ideal collaborative
posting...
Regards
Brian
Unfortunately, that's one of many omissions of the manuals and online
help...I wonder if they have a dedicated resource for this task of
keeping the manuals up-to-date and useful.
Perhaps someone would like to volunteer to document and then submit a
list of 'known errors and omissions' for the UniVerse documentation set?
Then it can be submitted to IBM?
Regards
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of HENDERSON MIKE,
MR
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:30 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? {Unclassified}
Ah, yes there it is in the User Reference, like you said Mark.
BUT, on 10.1 anyway,
* 'SUSPEND.FILES' is not in the Index of the User Reference, you
have to search the document to find it.
* When you do find it, it doesn't say whether the Dynamic / Type
30 file headers (or anything else) are flushed to disk when you
SUSPEND.FILES ON, and
* The documentation for uv -admin [options] lists the effects of
the options but not what the switch settings are that you would have to
use to invoke the options
All in all, not amongst IBM's best documentation efforts
Regards
Mike
---
u2-users mailing list
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
---
u2-users mailing list
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
This is one of many reasons to do all reading and writing to the database by using subroutines built on the database. -Original Message- From: Hona, David S [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 8:49 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? If you want incomplete updates in your database backup, then continue without pausing your database updates... :) Since BASIC applications don't timeout in database read/write operations, it's not really an issue. As for being a 'feature' it is sort of like the scenairo you get with a record update lock contention issue, except with no clause to handle the 'pause'.. Therefore you application would just wait until it's update is serviced...external applications using APIs are a different kettle of fish. So the 'feature' bit being it's transparent to your application. It is what you want with legacy applications of all sorts of vintage. Regards David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:41 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? Stephen: Is this kind of bogus or kind of a feature. Considering all the different ways connections can be made to the dbms, all kinds of software would/could be failing if backups are done during a dbpause timeframe. :-( So it really does mean backups have to be very complex with RAID configurations and implementations. Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
For any Backup solution that uses the Microsoft VSS Snapshot functionality, or an Advanced Open File Manager option, would it be safe to say that for UD applications, they should issue the DBPAUSE command, grab a snapshot, then DBRESUME - *for each Backup requested*, to ensure optimal consistency of the Backup's integrity? Since others have responded with the information about suspending updates on UV, I'll focus on this question about using snapshots. The answer for both UDT and UV is yes, for each backup requested you should suspend updates, create the snapshot, resume updates, and then back up from the snapshot. This gives you safe backups that are consistent as of a point in time. Note, however, that if your application doesn't have transaction processing semantics in place, the backup may be transactionally inconsistent. In other words, if you don't tell the database where the logical transactions begin and end, it's possible that only some files in a transaction will have been committed as of the time of the backup. Of course, you would have the same issue even if you logged off all users to perform the backup, and the pause-snapshot-resume scenario is much more appealing than doing that or (worst of all) backing up the database while hot. Tim Snyder Consulting I/T Specialist U2 Lab Services Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
Thank you for the clarification, Tim. Much appreciated. I am still not finding any real documentation details on UV's SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF. Does this indeed work in the same manner as DBPAUSE and DBRESUME, where a sync operation is performed to all memory resident files to ensure they write out contents to the disk files? One other clarification question on this while it's on the table. If a Customer, or a Customers application, is not using Transaction Logging they indeed run the risk of being transactionally in-consistent in either scenario - running [UD] DBPAUSE / DBRESUME or [UV] SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF and/or stopping [UD] or [UV]. Agreed, I would suspect it is much better to be database consistent with the possibility of some transactions in progress be in-consistent, and generally speaking depending on the actual applications and their transactions - some applications may tend to lend themselves to be more severely afftected by transactional-integrity sensitive than others. (Of course - with the caveat of your actual mileages may vary). Regards, Scott Richardson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prime Information / UniVerse / Unidata / Sequoia PICK / mvBase Pr1me Computer \ Encore Computer Corporation \ Sequoia Systems * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Senior Systems Engineer / Consultant Product Support Engineer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Timothy Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? For any Backup solution that uses the Microsoft VSS Snapshot functionality, or an Advanced Open File Manager option, would it be safe to say that for UD applications, they should issue the DBPAUSE command, grab a snapshot, then DBRESUME - *for each Backup requested*, to ensure optimal consistency of the Backup's integrity? Since others have responded with the information about suspending updates on UV, I'll focus on this question about using snapshots. The answer for both UDT and UV is yes, for each backup requested you should suspend updates, create the snapshot, resume updates, and then back up from the snapshot. This gives you safe backups that are consistent as of a point in time. Note, however, that if your application doesn't have transaction processing semantics in place, the backup may be transactionally inconsistent. In other words, if you don't tell the database where the logical transactions begin and end, it's possible that only some files in a transaction will have been committed as of the time of the backup. Of course, you would have the same issue even if you logged off all users to perform the backup, and the pause-snapshot-resume scenario is much more appealing than doing that or (worst of all) backing up the database while hot. Tim Snyder Consulting I/T Specialist U2 Lab Services Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure]
snip I am still not finding any real documentation details on UV's SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF. /snip As an aside, I suspect you are suffering from the poor organization of the UniVerse documentation. I would expect something like this to be in a guide for administrators, yet SUSPEND.FILE is documented is the user reference. (It does get one sentence in the Administering UniVerse guide...)... Then there are items in the System Description that should be somewhere else. It's one thing to use the system description to talk about the existence of file triggers, but to use that as the place to document the whole functionality it counter intuitive. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure]
I thought DBPAUSE allowed running processes to finish but would hold new processes . That's not much of a pause when you think that a process could be running for hours before the system is truly paused. From the online help: dbpause is a UniData system-level command that blocks most updates to the database made in a UniData session. Any updates made from the operating system level are not blocked. You can use this feature to perform some tasks that normally require UniData to be stopped, such as backing up your data. When the dbpause command is issued, all current writes and transactions complete before UniData pauses. Updates are blocked until the system administrator executes the dbresume command. Ron Sharcott (3635) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hennessey, Mark F. Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 8:34 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure] snip I am still not finding any real documentation details on UV's SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF. /snip As an aside, I suspect you are suffering from the poor organization of the UniVerse documentation. I would expect something like this to be in a guide for administrators, yet SUSPEND.FILE is documented is the user reference. (It does get one sentence in the Administering UniVerse guide...)... Then there are items in the System Description that should be somewhere else. It's one thing to use the system description to talk about the existence of file triggers, but to use that as the place to document the whole functionality it counter intuitive. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure]
I thought DBPAUSE allowed running processes to finish but would hold new processes . That's not much of a pause when you think that a process could be running for hours before the system is truly paused. Fortunately, that's not true. Only pending writes are processed, not entire programs. Committed transactions are processed, uncommitted transactions are temporarily rolled back. Processes that attempt new updates after dbpause is issued will appear to be hung. As soon as dbresume is issued, they pick up at the update. Processes performing read operations continue along their merry way. As a rule, control returns from dbpause to its invoking process in a few seconds, although it could be a bit longer if there are many pending updates or if it takes a long time for the disk subsystem to catch up. Tim Snyder Consulting I/T Specialist U2 Lab Services Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
Yes, UV initiates a sync at the time of the SUSPEND.FILES ON command is initiated. If there are enough disk drives under the system, it should only take between 15 and 45 seconds. After the sync completes. it will move to the next command. Yes, unless you add Transaction Semantics, (BEGIN TRANSACTION...WRITE...WRITE...END TRANSACTION...TRANSACTION COMMIT) you will have inconsistent data. Yes, I will write, and have others review, a brief paper on how to perform valid backups in UD/UV and stick it on the web. At your service, Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group Scott Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/05/07 07:58 AM Please respond to u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc Subject Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? ... Does this indeed work in the same manner as DBPAUSE and DBRESUME, where a sync operation is performed to all memory resident files to ensure they write out contents to the disk files? One other clarification question on this while it's on the table. If a Customer, or a Customers application, is not using Transaction Logging they indeed run the risk of being transactionally in-consistent in either scenario - running [UD] DBPAUSE / DBRESUME or [UV] SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF and/or stopping [UD] or [UV]. Agreed, I would suspect it is much better to be database consistent with the possibility of some transactions in progress be in-consistent, and generally speaking depending on the actual applications and their transactions - some applications may tend to lend themselves to be more severely afftected by transactional-integrity sensitive than others. (Of course - with the caveat of your actual mileages may vary). Regards, Scott Richardson --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
Slight correction For both UD DBPAUSE and UV SUSPEND.FILES ON, as soon as you initiate the command, all WRITES to the DB will stop. So, that batch process will stop at the next WRITE, and not continue until the process ends! Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group Ron Sharcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/05/07 09:50 AM Please respond to u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc Subject RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure] I thought DBPAUSE allowed running processes to finish but would hold new processes . That's not much of a pause when you think that a process could be running for hours before the system is truly paused. From the online help: dbpause is a UniData system-level command that blocks most updates to the database made in a UniData session. Any updates made from the operating system level are not blocked. You can use this feature to perform some tasks that normally require UniData to be stopped, such as backing up your data. When the dbpause command is issued, all current writes and transactions complete before UniData pauses. Updates are blocked until the system administrator executes the dbresume command. Ron Sharcott (3635) --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? {Unclassified}
Ah, yes there it is in the User Reference, like you said Mark. BUT, on 10.1 anyway, * 'SUSPEND.FILES' is not in the Index of the User Reference, you have to search the document to find it. * When you do find it, it doesn't say whether the Dynamic / Type 30 file headers (or anything else) are flushed to disk when you SUSPEND.FILES ON, and * The documentation for uv -admin [options] lists the effects of the options but not what the switch settings are that you would have to use to invoke the options All in all, not amongst IBM's best documentation efforts Regards Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hennessey, Mark F. Sent: Friday, 6 July 2007 3:34 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? [not-secure] snip I am still not finding any real documentation details on UV's SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF. /snip As an aside, I suspect you are suffering from the poor organization of the UniVerse documentation. I would expect something like this to be in a guide for administrators, yet SUSPEND.FILE is documented is the user reference. (It does get one sentence in the Administering UniVerse guide...)... Then there are items in the System Description that should be somewhere else. It's one thing to use the system description to talk about the existence of file triggers, but to use that as the place to document the whole functionality it counter intuitive. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? {Unclassified}
Unfortunately, that's one of many omissions of the manuals and online
help...I wonder if they have a dedicated resource for this task of
keeping the manuals up-to-date and useful.
Perhaps someone would like to volunteer to document and then submit a
list of 'known errors and omissions' for the UniVerse documentation set?
Then it can be submitted to IBM?
Regards
David
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of HENDERSON MIKE,
MR
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:30 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? {Unclassified}
Ah, yes there it is in the User Reference, like you said Mark.
BUT, on 10.1 anyway,
* 'SUSPEND.FILES' is not in the Index of the User Reference, you
have to search the document to find it.
* When you do find it, it doesn't say whether the Dynamic / Type
30 file headers (or anything else) are flushed to disk when you
SUSPEND.FILES ON, and
* The documentation for uv -admin [options] lists the effects of
the options but not what the switch settings are that you would have to
use to invoke the options
All in all, not amongst IBM's best documentation efforts
Regards
Mike
---
u2-users mailing list
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
Stephen: Is this kind of bogus or kind of a feature. Considering all the different ways connections can be made to the dbms, all kinds of software would/could be failing if backups are done during a dbpause timeframe. :-( So it really does mean backups have to be very complex with RAID configurations and implementations. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen O'Neal Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? Slight correction For both UD DBPAUSE and UV SUSPEND.FILES ON, as soon as you initiate the command, all WRITES to the DB will stop. So, that batch process will stop at the next WRITE, and not continue until the process ends! Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
I have followed this thread with much interest. I have scoured the U2 / UniVerse documentation, but I see no DBPAUSE command or equivilent for UniVerse. Are there any commands with similar functionaility for UV, or does IBM have any plans to introduce such command equilivents in UV as currently exist in UD? For any Backup solution that uses the Microsoft VSS Snapshot functionality, or an Advanced Open File Manager option, would it be safe to say that for UD applications, they should issue the DBPAUSE command, grab a snapshot, then DBRESUME - *for each Backup requested*, to ensure optimal consistency of the Backup's integrity? Would it also be safe to say that for UV Applications, the only sure way to grab a consistent Backup of the UV environment would be when the UV Database is shutdown, or in a state where there are no users logged on and No PHANTOMs running? It would be nice if UV had the same operational level commands that UD has in this area. I would appreciate any insight on this. Happy Indepedence Day / Fourth of July to all. Thank you. Regards, Scott Richardson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prime Information / UniVerse / Unidata / Sequoia PICK / mvBase Pr1me Computer \ Encore Computer Corporation \ Sequoia Systems * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Senior Systems Engineer / Consultant Product Support Engineer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Stephen O'Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin Alfke asked: Along that line - would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPAUSE? A cause of a slow response back from DBPAUSE is not enough disk drives under a system. When DBPAUSE is initiated, it flushes all of the UDT disk buffers to disk. If there is a lot of data waiting to be written, it can take a while. Another cause, is when a single disk drive is hot. Example: if a file, that has a lot of updates, is on a single disk drive. Optimally, files with a lot of updates should be striped across multiple disk drives. Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group --- --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF Manu - Original Message - From: Scott Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? I have followed this thread with much interest. I have scoured the U2 / UniVerse documentation, but I see no DBPAUSE command or equivilent for UniVerse. Are there any commands with similar functionaility for UV, or does IBM have any plans to introduce such command equilivents in UV as currently exist in UD? For any Backup solution that uses the Microsoft VSS Snapshot functionality, or an Advanced Open File Manager option, would it be safe to say that for UD applications, they should issue the DBPAUSE command, grab a snapshot, then DBRESUME - *for each Backup requested*, to ensure optimal consistency of the Backup's integrity? Would it also be safe to say that for UV Applications, the only sure way to grab a consistent Backup of the UV environment would be when the UV Database is shutdown, or in a state where there are no users logged on and No PHANTOMs running? It would be nice if UV had the same operational level commands that UD has in this area. I would appreciate any insight on this. Happy Indepedence Day / Fourth of July to all. Thank you. Regards, Scott Richardson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prime Information / UniVerse / Unidata / Sequoia PICK / mvBase Pr1me Computer \ Encore Computer Corporation \ Sequoia Systems * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Senior Systems Engineer / Consultant Product Support Engineer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Stephen O'Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin Alfke asked: Along that line - would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPAUSE? A cause of a slow response back from DBPAUSE is not enough disk drives under a system. When DBPAUSE is initiated, it flushes all of the UDT disk buffers to disk. If there is a lot of data waiting to be written, it can take a while. Another cause, is when a single disk drive is hot. Example: if a file, that has a lot of updates, is on a single disk drive. Optimally, files with a lot of updates should be striped across multiple disk drives. Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group --- --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse?
From the OS shell, uv -admin -L/R/U are synonyms to the SUSPEND.FILES TCL command. The Users Reference guide documents both of these methods. Regards, LeRoy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Manu Fernandes Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:16 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? SUSPEND.FILES ON/OFF Manu - Original Message - From: Scott Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [U2] UD Backups - DBPAUSE for UniVerse? I have followed this thread with much interest. I have scoured the U2 / UniVerse documentation, but I see no DBPAUSE command or equivilent for UniVerse. Are there any commands with similar functionaility for UV, or does IBM have any plans to introduce such command equilivents in UV as currently exist in UD? For any Backup solution that uses the Microsoft VSS Snapshot functionality, or an Advanced Open File Manager option, would it be safe to say that for UD applications, they should issue the DBPAUSE command, grab a snapshot, then DBRESUME - *for each Backup requested*, to ensure optimal consistency of the Backup's integrity? Would it also be safe to say that for UV Applications, the only sure way to grab a consistent Backup of the UV environment would be when the UV Database is shutdown, or in a state where there are no users logged on and No PHANTOMs running? It would be nice if UV had the same operational level commands that UD has in this area. I would appreciate any insight on this. Happy Indepedence Day / Fourth of July to all. Thank you. Regards, Scott Richardson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prime Information / UniVerse / Unidata / Sequoia PICK / mvBase Pr1me Computer \ Encore Computer Corporation \ Sequoia Systems * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Senior Systems Engineer / Consultant Product Support Engineer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - Original Message - From: Stephen O'Neal [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin Alfke asked: Along that line - would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPAUSE? A cause of a slow response back from DBPAUSE is not enough disk drives under a system. When DBPAUSE is initiated, it flushes all of the UDT disk buffers to disk. If there is a lot of data waiting to be written, it can take a while. Another cause, is when a single disk drive is hot. Example: if a file, that has a lot of updates, is on a single disk drive. Optimally, files with a lot of updates should be striped across multiple disk drives. Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group --- --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill-- I like it a lot. I googled this subject a few months ago and did not found much. At the time, I did not look at Wiki. I look forward to picking through the script over the next few days and weeks. Thanks. --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:47 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Bill: Try http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AutomateNTBackup. Let me know if this helps. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brutzman, Bill Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:19 AM To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org' Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Bill: I would be interested to look over these NT scripts... --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:32 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin: As always, thanks. I guess it could be anything. I was thinking it was just how slow stuff is, and how much junk we're all willing to put up with. :-) The cost is always a shock when one moves out of MV. But, I'm I'm getting used to it so pricing isn't that big a deal. However, the backup solution has to be loaded on about 7 Windows servers. As it stands now, I've built a couple of interesting NTBackup scripts that do everything for me, including ftp'ing the backups across the network to a storage machine, emailing me, and cleaning up the archives (so I don't end up with so many backup files it crashes the disk). Thanks again. Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill: I would be interested to look over these NT scripts... --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:32 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin: As always, thanks. I guess it could be anything. I was thinking it was just how slow stuff is, and how much junk we're all willing to put up with. :-) The cost is always a shock when one moves out of MV. But, I'm getting used to it so pricing isn't that big a deal. However, the backup solution has to be loaded on about 7 Windows servers. As it stands now, I've built a couple of interesting NTBackup scripts that do everything for me, including ftp'ing the backups across the network to a storage machine, emailing me, and cleaning up the archives (so I don't end up with so many backup files it crashes the disk). Thanks again. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:19 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups So it could be anything from poor drive setup/layout, slow controller, lack of ram, busy server (domain controller?). I have seen print processes run amok and create items in the temp folder that filled the drive. Maybe that's where your extra space went. I haven't seen anything taking up 10 times more space than reported (are you sure you read it correctly!?) None of our clients really needs high-speed backup. We did have one client come close as they had offices all over the world so a good backup window was getting tough to find. Backup Exec does have an open files option - or is it the cost that you don't like? hth Colin Alfke Calgary, Canada -Original Message- From: Bill Haskett Colin: The backups seem to take about the same time with or without UD shutdown, on the development server. I just ran a backup on our UD directory and it was 1Gb, compressed to 120Mb, and took about 5 1/2 minutes to create. On one of our client's D3 server, the uncompressed file-save, of the same data, took about 40 seconds and was about 200Mb. I took a look at another one of our clients and their D3 backup was 1.1Gb of a 5-6Gb database, on Windows, and it took 6 minutes to create. In one of our beta accounts, someone created a 12Mb hold entry and somehow Windows showed there were 11.7Gb in the _HOLD_ directory when the item, created on 6/25/07, showed as 12Mb in Windows Explorer. I deleted that item and this problem disappeared (where'd that come from?). I suppose this is just one more of the multitude of problems I've got to keep my eye on! Anyway... We don't have any transaction processing. The timing starts when the NTBackup starts, after the dbpause. The timing ends when the dbresume is executed, not when it completes. I've been researching backup software and it all seems to point back to Symantec (jeeze!). I was hoping someone would have experience with a high-speed backup product that would backup open files for U2. Since our application has a module that uses ASP.NET we really don't want to shut down the dbms for very long (this is more important than backuping up open files and not having a pristine backup). Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill: Try http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AutomateNTBackup. Let me know if this helps. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brutzman, Bill Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:19 AM To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org' Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Bill: I would be interested to look over these NT scripts... --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:32 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Colin: As always, thanks. I guess it could be anything. I was thinking it was just how slow stuff is, and how much junk we're all willing to put up with. :-) The cost is always a shock when one moves out of MV. But, I'm I'm getting used to it so pricing isn't that big a deal. However, the backup solution has to be loaded on about 7 Windows servers. As it stands now, I've built a couple of interesting NTBackup scripts that do everything for me, including ftp'ing the backups across the network to a storage machine, emailing me, and cleaning up the archives (so I don't end up with so many backup files it crashes the disk). Thanks again. Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UD Backups
At 11:29 AM 6/26/2007, you wrote: I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. One thing to look at is the size of data prior to backup, IE the size of the data source, not the size of the resultant backup image file. This is because if you know anything about hashed files and how they compress, it is not uncommon to be able to compress most hashed files to be only 20% of the original space it took on disk. That being said, your backup software is still going to need to scan all that data regardless if there are records there or not. So if your original data set is much larger on the U2 side, this would probably (in theory) explain the difference. I would also download a benchmark utility to test your disks to rule that out as being a problem as well. Doug Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manager of Technical Services Strategy 7Dallas TX --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: {Blocked Content} RE: [U2] UD Backups
Colin:
The backups seem to take about the same time with or without UD shutdown, on
the development server. I just ran a backup on our UD
directory and it was 1Gb, compressed to 120Mb, and took about 5 1/2 minutes to
create. On one of our client's D3 server, the
uncompressed file-save, of the same data, took about 40 seconds and was about
200Mb. I took a look at another one of our clients
and their D3 backup was 1.1Gb of a 5-6Gb database, on Windows, and it took 6
minutes to create. In one of our beta accounts,
someone created a 12Mb hold entry and somehow Windows showed there were 11.7Gb
in the _HOLD_ directory when the item, created on
6/25/07, showed as 12Mb in Windows Explorer. I deleted that item and this
problem disappeared (where'd that come from?). I suppose
this is just one more of the multitude of problems I've got to keep my eye on!
Anyway...
We don't have any transaction processing. The timing starts when the NTBackup
starts, after the dbpause. The timing ends when the
dbresume is executed, not when it completes.
I've been researching backup software and it all seems to point back to
Symantec (jeeze!). I was hoping someone would have
experience with a high-speed backup product that would backup open files for
U2. Since our application has a module that uses
ASP.NET we really don't want to shut down the dbms for very long (this is more
important than backuping up open files and not having
a pristine backup).
Thanks,
Bill
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:16 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: {Blocked Content} RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill;
How long does the backup take on the server if you shutdown UD
first? Just trying to rule out a problem with NTBackup before
getting carried away.
Do you have transaction processing? DBPause waits for any
writes to complete before it actually stops anything. It
may wait for the entire transaction. Along that line -
would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPause?
To answer your question - we've mostly used Backup Exec
(there were some issues with older versions of UD). We don't
have anything critical running overnight so we usually leave
UD running and set the backup open files and backup
without a lock options set. Not sure if it's any faster (I
think NTBackup is a pared down version of Backup Exec).
We've also had clients use Arcserve successfully, and we even
have one client that backs up to a server on the NET (don't
remember what that product is called).
hth
Colin Alfke
Calgary Canada
sorry list - I haven't been able to turn off rich-text e-mails
with this
version of Outlook Web Access :-(
From: Bill Haskett
Bill:
I have the entire backup process scripted and the main script
is called from a
configured Windows scheduled task. Nothing about the
backup process is done from within UD. We have a VB script
included, called
by this main backup script, that deletes old backup
files older than the number of days passed in via the command line.
Bill
This is a message from the MailScanner E-Mail Virus Protection Service
--
The original e-mail attachment winmail.dat
was believed to be infected by a virus and has been replaced
by this warning
message.
If you wish to receive a copy of the *infected* attachment, please
e-mail helpdesk and include the whole of this message
in your request. Alternatively, you can call them, with
the contents of this message to hand when you call.
At Tue Jun 26 16:19:00 2007 the virus scanner said:
Could not parse Outlook Rich Text attachment
Note to Help Desk: Look on the AngelicHost MailScanner in
/home/virtual/site2/fst/var/spool/mail.quarantine/20070626 (message
l5QNIvYF027208).
--
Postmaster
MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support
---
u2-users mailing list
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
---
u2-users mailing list
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Thanks Doug, I'll look at this. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Miller Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:26 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UD Backups At 11:29 AM 6/26/2007, you wrote: I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. One thing to look at is the size of data prior to backup, IE the size of the data source, not the size of the resultant backup image file. This is because if you know anything about hashed files and how they compress, it is not uncommon to be able to compress most hashed files to be only 20% of the original space it took on disk. That being said, your backup software is still going to need to scan all that data regardless if there are records there or not. So if your original data set is much larger on the U2 side, this would probably (in theory) explain the difference. I would also download a benchmark utility to test your disks to rule that out as being a problem as well. Doug Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manager of Technical Services Strategy 7Dallas TX --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
...I was hoping someone would have experience with a high-speed backup product that would backup open files for U2. Since our application has a module that uses ASP.NET we really don't want to shut down the dbms for very long (this is more important than backuping up open files and not having a pristine backup). It's pretty common to use an extra mirrored copy or a flash copy to provide backups of a quiescent database without suspending processing. It goes like this: 1) Pause updates with dbpause 2) Split off the copy, which will now be as of a point in time 3) Resume updates with dbresume 4) Back up from the quiescent, split copy, using the backup utility of your choice 5) Resync, snap back or do whatever is necessary to get the copy back up to date The duration of the pause will depend on many factors, but it's usually pretty quick - generally measured in seconds rather than minutes. And of course the exact commands to perform steps 2 and 5 will vary based on your operating system, disk storage facilities, high availability options, etc., etc. If your application uses transaction processing semantics, the transactions will be consistent within the backup, thanks to the dbpause. And you won't have to worry about files being backed up while groups are being updated, since they're not being accessed by the production users, who are happily going about their business, regardless of how long the actual backup takes. Tim Snyder Consulting I/T Specialist U2 Lab Services Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
So it could be anything from poor drive setup/layout, slow controller, lack of ram, busy server (domain controller?). I have seen print processes run amok and create items in the temp folder that filled the drive. Maybe that's where your extra space went. I haven't seen anything taking up 10 times more space than reported (are you sure you read it correctly!?) None of our clients really needs high-speed backup. We did have one client come close as they had offices all over the world so a good backup window was getting tough to find. Backup Exec does have an open files option - or is it the cost that you don't like? hth Colin Alfke Calgary, Canada -Original Message- From: Bill Haskett Colin: The backups seem to take about the same time with or without UD shutdown, on the development server. I just ran a backup on our UD directory and it was 1Gb, compressed to 120Mb, and took about 5 1/2 minutes to create. On one of our client's D3 server, the uncompressed file-save, of the same data, took about 40 seconds and was about 200Mb. I took a look at another one of our clients and their D3 backup was 1.1Gb of a 5-6Gb database, on Windows, and it took 6 minutes to create. In one of our beta accounts, someone created a 12Mb hold entry and somehow Windows showed there were 11.7Gb in the _HOLD_ directory when the item, created on 6/25/07, showed as 12Mb in Windows Explorer. I deleted that item and this problem disappeared (where'd that come from?). I suppose this is just one more of the multitude of problems I've got to keep my eye on! Anyway... We don't have any transaction processing. The timing starts when the NTBackup starts, after the dbpause. The timing ends when the dbresume is executed, not when it completes. I've been researching backup software and it all seems to point back to Symantec (jeeze!). I was hoping someone would have experience with a high-speed backup product that would backup open files for U2. Since our application has a module that uses ASP.NET we really don't want to shut down the dbms for very long (this is more important than backuping up open files and not having a pristine backup). Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Colin: As always, thanks. I guess it could be anything. I was thinking it was just how slow stuff is, and how much junk we're all willing to put up with. :-) The cost is always a shock when one moves out of MV. But, I'm getting used to it so pricing isn't that big a deal. However, the backup solution has to be loaded on about 7 Windows servers. As it stands now, I've built a couple of interesting NTBackup scripts that do everything for me, including ftp'ing the backups across the network to a storage machine, emailing me, and cleaning up the archives (so I don't end up with so many backup files it crashes the disk). Thanks again. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:19 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups So it could be anything from poor drive setup/layout, slow controller, lack of ram, busy server (domain controller?). I have seen print processes run amok and create items in the temp folder that filled the drive. Maybe that's where your extra space went. I haven't seen anything taking up 10 times more space than reported (are you sure you read it correctly!?) None of our clients really needs high-speed backup. We did have one client come close as they had offices all over the world so a good backup window was getting tough to find. Backup Exec does have an open files option - or is it the cost that you don't like? hth Colin Alfke Calgary, Canada -Original Message- From: Bill Haskett Colin: The backups seem to take about the same time with or without UD shutdown, on the development server. I just ran a backup on our UD directory and it was 1Gb, compressed to 120Mb, and took about 5 1/2 minutes to create. On one of our client's D3 server, the uncompressed file-save, of the same data, took about 40 seconds and was about 200Mb. I took a look at another one of our clients and their D3 backup was 1.1Gb of a 5-6Gb database, on Windows, and it took 6 minutes to create. In one of our beta accounts, someone created a 12Mb hold entry and somehow Windows showed there were 11.7Gb in the _HOLD_ directory when the item, created on 6/25/07, showed as 12Mb in Windows Explorer. I deleted that item and this problem disappeared (where'd that come from?). I suppose this is just one more of the multitude of problems I've got to keep my eye on! Anyway... We don't have any transaction processing. The timing starts when the NTBackup starts, after the dbpause. The timing ends when the dbresume is executed, not when it completes. I've been researching backup software and it all seems to point back to Symantec (jeeze!). I was hoping someone would have experience with a high-speed backup product that would backup open files for U2. Since our application has a module that uses ASP.NET we really don't want to shut down the dbms for very long (this is more important than backuping up open files and not having a pristine backup). Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Colin Alfke asked: Along that line - would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPAUSE? A cause of a slow response back from DBPAUSE is not enough disk drives under a system. When DBPAUSE is initiated, it flushes all of the UDT disk buffers to disk. If there is a lot of data waiting to be written, it can take a while. Another cause, is when a single disk drive is hot. Example: if a file, that has a lot of updates, is on a single disk drive. Optimally, files with a lot of updates should be striped across multiple disk drives. Steve Stephen M. O'Neal U2 Lab Services Sales Specialist Information Management, IBM Software Group --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
1. How big is the data? 2. How about (OS) copying to disk and then to a portable hard-drive or burn to DVD? --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:29 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] UD Backups I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. All servers run Windows 2003 Server Standard, updated several weeks ago. One server is an IIS web server using .NET while the other is a UniData server. There's not a lot of data so the time differences are pretty significant. Here's some info: ..now pausing the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.53 DBpause successful. ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.56 ..now resuming the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.06 DBresume successful. ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.13 ..now ftp'ing files to storage server on Tue 06/26/2007 at 0:32:58.08 sftp put *.rar - remote /AsiAsp2/Asp2_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 160247944 bytes, 16 seconds, 9751593 bytes/second sftp quit The non-UD server shows: ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:55:01.28 ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:59:34.23 ..now sftp'ing backup to ASI web server on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:37:07.40 sftp put *.rar - remote /netdrive/archive/Ht1_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 989484797 bytes, 118 seconds, 8360665 bytes/second sftp quit As can be seen, the 160MB NTBackup is taking 22 minutes on the UD machine and only 4 minutes for the 990MB backup on the IIS/.NET machine. I'm guessing it has something to do with files in use. We really don't want UD shutdown for 22 minutes. When it starts growing we're going to have a real problem. Can anyone recommend a fast backup/compression product for a reasonable price? Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
I admit I don't know anything about NTBackup but over the years I have seen enough backups to wonder if your data is of a different type. Any backup will run slower if it has to open and close a lot of small files as opposed to large files. Is it possible that the UD server as several type 19 files with many small records and the other has large files. Are you using the PE version for this test because you don't seem to have much data if you aren't? -Original Message- From: Bill Haskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:29 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] UD Backups I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. All servers run Windows 2003 Server Standard, updated several weeks ago. One server is an IIS web server using .NET while the other is a UniData server. There's not a lot of data so the time differences are pretty significant. Here's some info: ..now pausing the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.53 DBpause successful. ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.56 ..now resuming the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.06 DBresume successful. ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.13 ..now ftp'ing files to storage server on Tue 06/26/2007 at 0:32:58.08 sftp put *.rar - remote /AsiAsp2/Asp2_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 160247944 bytes, 16 seconds, 9751593 bytes/second sftp quit The non-UD server shows: ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:55:01.28 ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:59:34.23 ..now sftp'ing backup to ASI web server on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:37:07.40 sftp put *.rar - remote /netdrive/archive/Ht1_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 989484797 bytes, 118 seconds, 8360665 bytes/second sftp quit As can be seen, the 160MB NTBackup is taking 22 minutes on the UD machine and only 4 minutes for the 990MB backup on the IIS/.NET machine. I'm guessing it has something to do with files in use. We really don't want UD shutdown for 22 minutes. When it starts growing we're going to have a real problem. Can anyone recommend a fast backup/compression product for a reasonable price? Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill: The UD backup was only 160MB for the test. I suspect it will get to the size of the .NET backup (1GB) within six to twelve months. We'd like all of this to be scripted, as the servers are administered remotely. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brutzman, Bill Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:45 AM To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org' Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups 1. How big is the data? 2. How about (OS) copying to disk and then to a portable hard-drive or burn to DVD? --Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:29 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] UD Backups I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. All servers run Windows 2003 Server Standard, updated several weeks ago. One server is an IIS web server using .NET while the other is a UniData server. There's not a lot of data so the time differences are pretty significant. Here's some info: ..now pausing the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.53 DBpause successful. ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.56 ..now resuming the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.06 DBresume successful. ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.13 ..now ftp'ing files to storage server on Tue 06/26/2007 at 0:32:58.08 sftp put *.rar - remote /AsiAsp2/Asp2_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 160247944 bytes, 16 seconds, 9751593 bytes/second sftp quit The non-UD server shows: ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:55:01.28 ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:59:34.23 ..now sftp'ing backup to ASI web server on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:37:07.40 sftp put *.rar - remote /netdrive/archive/Ht1_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 989484797 bytes, 118 seconds, 8360665 bytes/second sftp quit As can be seen, the 160MB NTBackup is taking 22 minutes on the UD machine and only 4 minutes for the 990MB backup on the IIS/.NET machine. I'm guessing it has something to do with files in use. We really don't want UD shutdown for 22 minutes. When it starts growing we're going to have a real problem. Can anyone recommend a fast backup/compression product for a reasonable price? Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Jerry: It's a licensed UD Server version w/40 licenses. It's moving into low production mode at the moment until we resolve all of the wrinkles associated with a conversion. It doesn't have a lot of files in each account but new ASP accounts have little data and older ones have a fair amount of data. The files are reasonably sized and there's nothing, that I know of, that's unusual about them. On a development server, basically the same amount of data is backed up by NTBackup in five minutes; but that still seems too long. There are several UniObjects connections to both UD servers from mv.NET and DesignBais (in the case of the development server). Thanks, Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Banker Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:00 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups I admit I don't know anything about NTBackup but over the years I have seen enough backups to wonder if your data is of a different type. Any backup will run slower if it has to open and close a lot of small files as opposed to large files. Is it possible that the UD server as several type 19 files with many small records and the other has large files. Are you using the PE version for this test because you don't seem to have much data if you aren't? -Original Message- From: Bill Haskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:29 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] UD Backups I've been testing NTBackup recently. There are some significant time delays in backuping up a UD system vs a plain Windows system. All servers run Windows 2003 Server Standard, updated several weeks ago. One server is an IIS web server using .NET while the other is a UniData server. There's not a lot of data so the time differences are pretty significant. Here's some info: ..now pausing the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.53 DBpause successful. ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:30:00.56 ..now resuming the UniData dbms on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.06 DBresume successful. ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:52:02.13 ..now ftp'ing files to storage server on Tue 06/26/2007 at 0:32:58.08 sftp put *.rar - remote /AsiAsp2/Asp2_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 160247944 bytes, 16 seconds, 9751593 bytes/second sftp quit The non-UD server shows: ..now starting Windows NTBackup on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:55:01.28 ..zipping (RAR) is now starting on Mon 06/25/2007 at 22:59:34.23 ..now sftp'ing backup to ASI web server on Mon 06/25/2007 at 23:37:07.40 sftp put *.rar - remote /netdrive/archive/Ht1_20070625.rar OK Uploaded 989484797 bytes, 118 seconds, 8360665 bytes/second sftp quit As can be seen, the 160MB NTBackup is taking 22 minutes on the UD machine and only 4 minutes for the 990MB backup on the IIS/.NET machine. I'm guessing it has something to do with files in use. We really don't want UD shutdown for 22 minutes. When it starts growing we're going to have a real problem. Can anyone recommend a fast backup/compression product for a reasonable price? Thanks, Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill-- I presume that UniData invokes an NT service that could be disabled in an VB Script. The files could then be copied. Check out... VB Script, Step By Step, Ed Wilson, Microsoft Press, 2007. --Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UD Backups
Bill: I have the entire backup process scripted and the main script is called from a configured Windows scheduled task. Nothing about the backup process is done from within UD. We have a VB script included, called by this main backup script, that deletes old backup files older than the number of days passed in via the command line. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brutzman, Bill Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:16 PM To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org' Subject: RE: [U2] UD Backups Bill-- I presume that UniData invokes an NT service that could be disabled in an VB Script. The files could then be copied. Check out... VB Script, Step By Step, Ed Wilson, Microsoft Press, 2007. --Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
{Blocked Content} RE: [U2] UD Backups
Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed Warning: (not named). Warning: Please read the AngelicHost-Attachment-Warning.txt attachment(s) for more information. Bill; How long does the backup take on the server if you shutdown UD first? Just trying to rule out a problem with NTBackup before getting carried away. Do you have transaction processing? DBPause waits for any writes to complete before it actually stops anything. It may wait for the entire transaction. Along that line - would there be anything else that may be holding up DBPause? To answer your question - we've mostly used Backup Exec (there were some issues with older versions of UD). We don't have anything critical running overnight so we usually leave UD running and set the backup open files and backup without a lock options set. Not sure if it's any faster (I think NTBackup is a pared down version of Backup Exec). We've also had clients use Arcserve successfully, and we even have one client that backs up to a server on the NET (don't remember what that product is called). hth Colin Alfke Calgary Canada sorry list - I haven't been able to turn off rich-text e-mails with this version of Outlook Web Access :-( From: Bill Haskett Bill: I have the entire backup process scripted and the main script is called from a configured Windows scheduled task. Nothing about the backup process is done from within UD. We have a VB script included, called by this main backup script, that deletes old backup files older than the number of days passed in via the command line. Bill This is a message from the MailScanner E-Mail Virus Protection Service -- The original e-mail attachment winmail.dat was believed to be infected by a virus and has been replaced by this warning message. If you wish to receive a copy of the *infected* attachment, please e-mail helpdesk and include the whole of this message in your request. Alternatively, you can call them, with the contents of this message to hand when you call. At Tue Jun 26 16:19:00 2007 the virus scanner said: Could not parse Outlook Rich Text attachment Note to Help Desk: Look on the AngelicHost MailScanner in /home/virtual/site2/fst/var/spool/mail.quarantine/20070626 (message l5QNIvYF027208). -- Postmaster MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] [UD] backups
Ken: Thank you very muchntbackup, here I come. :-) Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Wallis Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:31 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups Bill Haskett wrote: I'm so confused. How does one go about doing a UniData (on Windows) backup? The same way you back up any other application on Windows - using whatever windows tool you like, ideally against a quiescent database - ie log everyone off, or do a dbpause. 1) Drag drop the @UDTHOME directory (but then how does one restore it)? Yes, you can do that, but not everything has to live under @UDTHOME of course. To restore files, you'd just drag and drop back the files you want. 2) Is there some sort of save verb that I can use after I: :SETTAPE 9 E:/Backups/UDBackups E:/Backups/UDBackups 512 No. Following this, can one do something like a SEL-RESTORE? See above. Cheers, Ken --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] [UD] backups
As an aside, what does one do when rebuilding a machine from one of these backups? 1) reinstall windows 2) reinstall UD into the previous UDTHOME directory 3) drag'n drop the old directory structure into UDTHOME and everything works, all accounts now exist? This is definitely cool. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups Ken: Thank you very muchntbackup, here I come. :-) Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Wallis Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:31 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups Bill Haskett wrote: I'm so confused. How does one go about doing a UniData (on Windows) backup? The same way you back up any other application on Windows - using whatever windows tool you like, ideally against a quiescent database - ie log everyone off, or do a dbpause. 1) Drag drop the @UDTHOME directory (but then how does one restore it)? Yes, you can do that, but not everything has to live under @UDTHOME of course. To restore files, you'd just drag and drop back the files you want. 2) Is there some sort of save verb that I can use after I: :SETTAPE 9 E:/Backups/UDBackups E:/Backups/UDBackups 512 No. Following this, can one do something like a SEL-RESTORE? See above. Cheers, Ken --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] [UD] backups
As someone that had their hard drive slammed by a hard error on the boot sector on Friday the 13th of last year, I can attest that NTBACKUP works great at restores, as long as you have a windows system to boot off of. The old chicken and the egg thing. Fortunately I had an emergency hard drive that I just use for just such occasions. Just bought a new drive, booted off the emergency drive (small slow drive but works), restored to the new drive and bingo. I had to manually reconfigure ZoneAlarm but that's actually a feature that ZA will freak out if it finds it's files moved to a new physical position. btw, it would be wise to practice a few restores using an extra drive. It's not kind of thing that you want to 'learn' while trying to get back up ASAP, and it's not as intuitive as one would hope.. . . Allen E. Elwood www.tortillafc.com Quality Code Since 1978 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:30 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups As an aside, what does one do when rebuilding a machine from one of these backups? 1) reinstall windows 2) reinstall UD into the previous UDTHOME directory 3) drag'n drop the old directory structure into UDTHOME and everything works, all accounts now exist? This is definitely cool. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:52 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups Ken: Thank you very muchntbackup, here I come. :-) Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Wallis Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:31 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] [UD] backups Bill Haskett wrote: I'm so confused. How does one go about doing a UniData (on Windows) backup? The same way you back up any other application on Windows - using whatever windows tool you like, ideally against a quiescent database - ie log everyone off, or do a dbpause. 1) Drag drop the @UDTHOME directory (but then how does one restore it)? Yes, you can do that, but not everything has to live under @UDTHOME of course. To restore files, you'd just drag and drop back the files you want. 2) Is there some sort of save verb that I can use after I: :SETTAPE 9 E:/Backups/UDBackups E:/Backups/UDBackups 512 No. Following this, can one do something like a SEL-RESTORE? See above. Cheers, Ken --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] [UD] backups
The problem with NT backup is that it will skip files that are open. So if you have people logged in or jobs running, the files will be skipped. I believe I have seen VOC's skipped (and maybe other files) for no apparent reason either. See some of the posts here. http://www.mail-archive.com/u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org/msg05742.html I did a big write up on OFM once but could not find it in the archives there. I wish Lee had his archive server up and running so I could have pointed you there. But alas, it's still work in progress. Sorry, Doug Miller At 11:52 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote: Thank you very muchntbackup, here I come. :-) Bill --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] [UD] backups
Bill Haskett wrote: I'm so confused. How does one go about doing a UniData (on Windows) backup? The same way you back up any other application on Windows - using whatever windows tool you like, ideally against a quiescent database - ie log everyone off, or do a dbpause. 1) Drag drop the @UDTHOME directory (but then how does one restore it)? Yes, you can do that, but not everything has to live under @UDTHOME of course. To restore files, you'd just drag and drop back the files you want. 2) Is there some sort of save verb that I can use after I: :SETTAPE 9 E:/Backups/UDBackups E:/Backups/UDBackups 512 No. Following this, can one do something like a SEL-RESTORE? See above. Cheers, Ken --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
