Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Pitr T.]

All right, I've set up the Wiki page as well as a pallete, possible desktop
backgrounds, references, concept art, and drafts of icons for my Gre-Manity
theme idea. Can anyone help me in refining the icons, selecting specific
colors, and figuring out how the heck a GTK theme is written?

The wiki page is at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Gre-Manity,  if you want
to provide any help with it. Please leave comments and help decide what
needs to be better/different.


-Pitr T. Mayhew
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Cory K. wrote:
>
> The "to be included with Ubuntu 8.10" is a bit presumptuous but I think
> it's a good start. I've only offered to help get a package together for
> pretty complete themes that will go in the Universe repo.
>
> I'd get a wiki page up outlining what you're looking to achieve and
> sources for things you've done so people can help work on what you've
> done so far.
>
> -Cory \m/

Having it in the repo when it's done will be great. Thanks for the help 
Cory! :)

Hylke

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Hylke Bons wrote:
> I'd like to lead a subteam too. :)
> If you're interested: http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/extending-discovery/
>
> Hylke

The "to be included with Ubuntu 8.10" is a bit presumptuous but I think
it's a good start. I've only offered to help get a package together for
pretty complete themes that will go in the Universe repo.

I'd get a wiki page up outlining what you're looking to achieve and
sources for things you've done so people can help work on what you've
done so far.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Peter Mayhew]

Okay, I've started a wiki for Gre-Manity, the Environment Theme. Anyone
interested can find it at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Gre-Manity, and any help
would be appreciated. I especially need someone who can code GTK themes and
refining the icons.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

I'd like to lead a subteam too. :)
If you're interested: http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/extending-discovery/

Hylke

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Peter Mayhew wrote:
>
> Sounds like you want to lead a team. :) Time for you to start a wiki
> page. Best to coordinate there than a bunch of emails.
>
> -Cory \m/ 
>
>
>
> I'm not good with wiki editing. How do I do that, exactly? As my
> friends would say, "Roflol."

Please put your responses below the reply. Unless you joined in the last
10 mins I'm sure you saw the thread about this subject.

Best way to edit the wiki is to try. Just figure it out. It's not hard.
Just dig in.

-Cory \m/


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Peter Mayhew]

I'm not good with wiki editing. How do I do that, exactly? As my friends
would say, "Roflol."


> Sounds like you want to lead a team. :) Time for you to start a wiki
> page. Best to coordinate there than a bunch of emails.
>
> -Cory \m/
>
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>



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Pitr T. wrote:
>  Same here. I think that a good theme based on Aquatics/Water, or
> perhaps City Life, could be developed and incorporated. I've got some
> initial image files for i've made both of those themes on my desktop,
> but I cannot write the gtk theme code for beans. I would also like to
> help with Elements themes if that is still an idea. If anyone wants
> more information on an aquatics theme or City Life, send me an email.
> I need help with: code, window themes, and refining/reworking the images.
>  
> -Peter "Pitr" T. Mayhew

Sounds like you want to lead a team. :) Time for you to start a wiki
page. Best to coordinate there than a bunch of emails.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Pitr T.]

 Same here. I think that a good theme based on Aquatics/Water, or perhaps
City Life, could be developed and incorporated. I've got some initial image
files for i've made both of those themes on my desktop, but I cannot write
the gtk theme code for beans. I would also like to help with Elements themes
if that is still an idea. If anyone wants more information on an aquatics
theme or City Life, send me an email. I need help with: code, window themes,
and refining/reworking the images.

-Peter "Pitr" T. Mayhew
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[shadowh511]

I have a lot of free time, so, yeah, but let me warn you, I have no
experience in coding GTK themes, I can get everyone on track though.

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Cory K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So.
>
> Who's gonna step up and lead a team?
>
> Who has a vision?
>
> Who can pull something together?
>
> (and before anyone says something, I'm not trying to invoke "Who"
> himself) ;)
>
> -Cory \m/
>
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>



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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

So.

Who's gonna step up and lead a team?

Who has a vision?

Who can pull something together?

(and before anyone says something, I'm not trying to invoke "Who"
himself) ;)

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Kenneth Wimer]

Hello (art)world!

On Wednesday 30 April 2008 22:30:37 Who wrote:


I agree 100% completely, totally, honestly, genuinely with everything Who has 
said and think that you should listen to him.

Create themes which please *you*. Show off what you can do. Talk to others for 
help and inspiration. Make this community a community not just a small club.

The idea is to prove that we can:

 * create amazing artwork

 * make entire themes based on these different amazing ideas

 * do all of this consistently over a longer period of time

The default theme is an evolution. New ideas are planned based on ideas taken, 
in some part, from the wiki. The more good ideas we present the more effect 
we will have on the default ubuntu artwork. Using the Heron wallpaper was a 
big step for us, I think. Making GDM use some of the forms from the wallpaper 
a baby step nonetheless. 

I am not saying that people should not try to create artwork which is line 
with the guidelines (somewhat better ones are coming, btw). 

Please realize that we cannot simply throw everything out the door and start 
totally new in one release. There simply isn't enough time to do it that 
way - it has to be an evolution. Working on your own theme you would not be 
bound to such issues and are free to create whatever you like.

One thing that I think we should look into is including some of the better 
themes in the default selection of themes on the CD. This might mean just 
picking some good ones from gnome-look or including some of the community 
themes, depending on how this all works out (and pending technical review). 
In any case we should have packages available for all complete themes. We 
could probably include them in one meta-package as well for the theme hungry.

Anyway, if you didn't catch the ubuntu openweek artwork talk, the log is 
available at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/Artwork
It was my first time, so give me a break :-)

So basically, for those of you looking to the bottom of the mail for the 
beginning of my text (I'm a bottom-poster, I admit)

Who do we listen to? Yes!

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[shadowh511]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Cory K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> shadowh511 wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, shadowh511 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Didn't I just say something to the same effect? Though I
> > wouldn't put in
> > the negative connotations in the descriptions.
> >
> > If they don't make the repo package, they could go on
> GNOME-look.
> >
> > -Cory \m/
> >
> >
> > yeah, but if the themes are on gnome-look, how is the average user
> > supposed to know how to install them?
> >
> > I think that if the themes are rejected, they get packaged anyway,
> > and the user is given instructions on how to use the themes (wiki
> > page!!!)
> >
> > I have been using gnome-look a lot and i still get confused.  a
> > ubuntu client for gnome-look would be very nice.
> >
>
> Most themes come in a .tar and you simple drop them in the theme
> manager. I really don't see why that's hard. In Windows you have to hack
> files to get it to use 3rd party themes and tons of people figure it
> out. The same people with the drive to them windows are smart enough to
> figure it out on linux. Your grandma doesn't change themes.
>
> >
> > by the way, what is mark shuttleworth's email?
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> But know, it's just gonna get forwarded to Ken who is already watching
> this list. :P
>
> -Cory \m/
>
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That was close, I almost top-posted.
Ok, thanks for the insight about The God's, I mean Mark Shuttleworth's
ideas.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

shadowh511 wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, shadowh511 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> Didn't I just say something to the same effect? Though I
> wouldn't put in
> the negative connotations in the descriptions.
>
> If they don't make the repo package, they could go on GNOME-look.
>
> -Cory \m/
>
>
> yeah, but if the themes are on gnome-look, how is the average user
> supposed to know how to install them?
>
> I think that if the themes are rejected, they get packaged anyway,
> and the user is given instructions on how to use the themes (wiki
> page!!!)
>
> I have been using gnome-look a lot and i still get confused.  a
> ubuntu client for gnome-look would be very nice.
>

Most themes come in a .tar and you simple drop them in the theme
manager. I really don't see why that's hard. In Windows you have to hack
files to get it to use 3rd party themes and tons of people figure it
out. The same people with the drive to them windows are smart enough to
figure it out on linux. Your grandma doesn't change themes.

>
> by the way, what is mark shuttleworth's email?
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

But know, it's just gonna get forwarded to Ken who is already watching
this list. :P

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[shadowh511]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:37 PM, shadowh511 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Didn't I just say something to the same effect? Though I wouldn't put in
> >  the negative connotations in the descriptions.
> >
> > If they don't make the repo package, they could go on GNOME-look.
> >
> > -Cory \m/
> >
> > --
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> > ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> >
>
> yeah, but if the themes are on gnome-look, how is the average user
> supposed to know how to install them?
> I think that if the themes are rejected, they get packaged anyway, and the
> user is given instructions on how to use the themes (wiki page!!!)
>
> I have been using gnome-look a lot and i still get confused.  a ubuntu
> client for gnome-look would be very nice.
>
> --
> Ubuntu FTW!
>

by the way, what is mark shuttleworth's email?

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[shadowh511]

>
> Didn't I just say something to the same effect? Though I wouldn't put in
> the negative connotations in the descriptions.
>
> If they don't make the repo package, they could go on GNOME-look.
>
> -Cory \m/
>
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>

yeah, but if the themes are on gnome-look, how is the average user supposed
to know how to install them?
I think that if the themes are rejected, they get packaged anyway, and the
user is given instructions on how to use the themes (wiki page!!!)

I have been using gnome-look a lot and i still get confused.  a ubuntu
client for gnome-look would be very nice.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

shadowh511 wrote:
> yes, but i had an idea for a "rejected themes" package.  The desktop
> would use human, and if you installed this package "Extra Themes" with
> a description like "Here, you can use the themes that didn't make the
> cut" and give the user a set of instructions on how to apply the new
> themes.

Didn't I just say something to the same effect? Though I wouldn't put in
the negative connotations in the descriptions.

If they don't make the repo package, they could go on GNOME-look.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Who]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Hylke Bons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Who wrote:
>  > This is the most important point on which our opinions differ: I think
>  > that, for now, we cannot expect to be able to predict what the
>  > 'default' theme must be - there ARE no guidelines and it seems that it
>  > is NOT the job of the artwork team to make these guidelines...  Please
>  > see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004280.html
>  > - this was the last comprehensive attempt I made to get guidelines for
>  > default theme design sorted. As you will see, Kwwii answered many of
>  > the questions, but they really need to be asked again each release.
>  >
>  > I would argue that we shouldn't guess what will work  as a default.
>  > Pre Ubuntu would _anyone_ have suggested making brown a default? Or
>  > orange? If the decision was down to this team, Edgy could have looked
>  > very different, Dapper too. It wasn't then, it isn't now, and until we
>  > prove we can do quality stuff and work within the Ubuntu system, it
>  > won't be.
>  >
>  Back to the 5 teams example. Let's say they would all go there own
>  separate way each create something unique and "arty". They all deliver a
>  beautiful theme but none of them seems usable enough to declare default.
>  Although there are none/few guidelines for building a ubuntu theme,
>  there are human interface guidelines to go with.
>  What I'm trying to say is, everyone has a different taste, and that's
>  ok, but we shouldn't let people work on something that won't be at all
>  usable yet pretty.
>  I think ubuntu already has a lot of alternative themes to choose from.
>

Every USER has different tastes too - I think to assume we can make a
good default is ridiculous - we should be catering for a range of
needs. The default theme serves a very special need: To make Ubuntu
distinctive and also to be liked by Mark Shuttleworth - which is fine,
it is his distro, and he can call those shots, he has other
considerations to us that we might not know when designing.
+---+
|  What needs to be clear that *this team does not choose the artwork*  |
+---+

Despite being the 'Ubuntu Art Team' we have _never_ made a full theme
that was the default. I *strongly* believe this is because we have not
proved enough times in a row that we CAN do this. Really, to rally
around the default theme is _so much more likely_ to waste time than
making individual teams to make NON-Default themes. On the other hand,
if we make 5 themes that are GOOD ENOUGH to be default, package them,
get support for them, and support them through more than one release,
THEN we will have credibility when we ask to design the default theme
(or to make one of the themes already existing default)

'Human's Interface Guidelines' are, to be honest, not nearly good
enough for us to make something good with, and what the people that
are new here may not ever have personally experienced is that, in
releases gone by, it has been *one person* - Mark Shuttleworth, aka
sabdfl, who has decided what the default theme would look like. As an
example: In the Edgy cycle, after HUGE amounts of effort from the team
a professional designer not affiliated with the team was hired to
tweak things - only a fraction of our work (as I remember, the logo,
and a non-default wallpaper) was default. I know, as someone who had
spent HOURS and HOURS trying to make artwork to be the default, that
this is the most frustrating thing.

If you are absolutely certain you want to do this I _strongly_
recommend looking back at the email I sent to the list
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004280.html
and getting some of those answers for this cycle.


>  >
>  Fun IS important!
>  I seriously think it would be a lot of fun if we'd all join forces on
>  this one project, satisfying a lot of contributors that take the effort
>  to sign up to the mailing list and make their wishes and ideas heard,
>  rather than picking one out of 5 projects.


We would not have to pick one out of 5, as Cory says - they would all
be packaged. Currently in Ubuntu there are just OrangeSun,
BlubuntuLook and (I think) TropicLook available. And I know Blubuntu
really needs an update. It would be brilliant as a way to cater to
more users to make more themes and make them easy to install. IF you
want to make a theme to the Human guidelines then do it, maybe it will
be accepted as default, but there are _no_ guarantees.

On the contrary, by working towards a single default we will have to
pick just one of the many talented designers to lead, and only ONE of
the great directions to move in.

One theme cannot contain the vision and ideas of all these members
that come along and take the time to make their wishes heard -they
would end up being asked to do design that was different to their idea
and

Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[shadowh511]

yes, but i had an idea for a "rejected themes" package.  The desktop would
use human, and if you installed this package "Extra Themes" with
a description like "Here, you can use the themes that didn't make the cut"
and give the user a set of instructions on how to apply the new themes.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Álvaro Medina Ballester wrote:
> El 30/04/2008, a las 22:01, Cory K. escribió:
>   
>> Álvaro Medina Ballester wrote:
>> 
>>> El 30/04/2008, a las 21:32, Cory K. escribió:
>>>   
 That's for Ken ans sabdfl to worry about. Maybe none of them. Being
 default should not be one's motivation.

 -Cory \m/
 
>>> I think that creating default theme is a great motivation. Otherwise,
>>> deviant-art contests would be completely nonsense. But if someone
>>> wants to develop the default artwork should follow Ubuntu guidelines.
>>> Where are they? I don't know, I don't know even if they exist. The
>>> only "official" "guidelines" are this ones [1], really?
>>>
>>> In my opinion, that should be enough to start creating something, but
>>> if we had more info that would be great.
>>>
>>> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
>>>
>>> PD: the most important things that I see in that page are the pallete
>>> and the logo, but maybe having more information would help more.
>>>   
>> I'm sorry, but you and others just really haven't been listening to me
>> and others who have gone through this already. sabdfl doesn't know  
>> what
>> he wants 'till he sees it. He has never been clear. So there are only
>> ever vague guidelines to go by.
>>
>> So take out being default because it will only leave you pissed-off  
>> when
>> your work isn't picked. Just create. Come up with a vision and follow
>> through. Being in the repo should also feed your ego if you are such a
>> person.
>>
>> -Cory \m/
>> 
>
> Ok, so I have not understood you. Now I see quite clear how is this,  
> let's see if It really is what I think:
>
> We must create artwork, just that. With no limits, don't force anybody  
> to follow guidelines, just create.

Exactly.

> Then sabdfl will se everything  
> we've created and then he will decide.

We can hope it will happen this way I'm sure Ken will show him anything
that stands out. Anything that still feels like Ubuntu. But in the end,
he might go with something Ken has done. Ken is paid to do this after
all. ;)

> If the artwork is not official,  
> it will be packaged.
>   

I have offered to package up themes that reach as complete a state as
OrangeSun and Blubuntu. If odds and ends are all that happen, there
might be a "community-artwork" package or something.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

El 30/04/2008, a las 22:01, Cory K. escribió:

> Álvaro Medina Ballester wrote:
>> El 30/04/2008, a las 21:32, Cory K. escribió:
>>
>>> That's for Ken ans sabdfl to worry about. Maybe none of them. Being
>>> default should not be one's motivation.
>>>
>>> -Cory \m/
>>>
>>
>> I think that creating default theme is a great motivation. Otherwise,
>> deviant-art contests would be completely nonsense. But if someone
>> wants to develop the default artwork should follow Ubuntu guidelines.
>> Where are they? I don't know, I don't know even if they exist. The
>> only "official" "guidelines" are this ones [1], really?
>>
>> In my opinion, that should be enough to start creating something, but
>> if we had more info that would be great.
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
>>
>> PD: the most important things that I see in that page are the pallete
>> and the logo, but maybe having more information would help more.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, but you and others just really haven't been listening to me
> and others who have gone through this already. sabdfl doesn't know  
> what
> he wants 'till he sees it. He has never been clear. So there are only
> ever vague guidelines to go by.
>
> So take out being default because it will only leave you pissed-off  
> when
> your work isn't picked. Just create. Come up with a vision and follow
> through. Being in the repo should also feed your ego if you are such a
> person.
>
> -Cory \m/
>
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Ok, so I have not understood you. Now I see quite clear how is this,  
let's see if It really is what I think:

We must create artwork, just that. With no limits, don't force anybody  
to follow guidelines, just create. Then sabdfl will se everything  
we've created and then he will decide. If the artwork is not official,  
it will be packaged.

Sometimes it's hard to understand everything when english is not your  
language, but I think that now I'm getting it, really?

Cheers!


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Álvaro Medina Ballester wrote:
> El 30/04/2008, a las 21:32, Cory K. escribió:
>   
>> That's for Ken ans sabdfl to worry about. Maybe none of them. Being
>> default should not be one's motivation.
>>
>> -Cory \m/
>> 
>
> I think that creating default theme is a great motivation. Otherwise,  
> deviant-art contests would be completely nonsense. But if someone  
> wants to develop the default artwork should follow Ubuntu guidelines.  
> Where are they? I don't know, I don't know even if they exist. The  
> only "official" "guidelines" are this ones [1], really?
>
> In my opinion, that should be enough to start creating something, but  
> if we had more info that would be great.
>
> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
>
> PD: the most important things that I see in that page are the pallete  
> and the logo, but maybe having more information would help more.
>   

I'm sorry, but you and others just really haven't been listening to me
and others who have gone through this already. sabdfl doesn't know what
he wants 'till he sees it. He has never been clear. So there are only
ever vague guidelines to go by.

So take out being default because it will only leave you pissed-off when
your work isn't picked. Just create. Come up with a vision and follow
through. Being in the repo should also feed your ego if you are such a
person.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

El 30/04/2008, a las 21:32, Cory K. escribió:
> That's for Ken ans sabdfl to worry about. Maybe none of them. Being
> default should not be one's motivation.
>
> -Cory \m/

I think that creating default theme is a great motivation. Otherwise,  
deviant-art contests would be completely nonsense. But if someone  
wants to develop the default artwork should follow Ubuntu guidelines.  
Where are they? I don't know, I don't know even if they exist. The  
only "official" "guidelines" are this ones [1], really?

In my opinion, that should be enough to start creating something, but  
if we had more info that would be great.

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official

PD: the most important things that I see in that page are the pallete  
and the logo, but maybe having more information would help more.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Hylke Bons wrote:
> Cory K. wrote:
>   
>> Hylke Bons wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Back to the 5 teams example. Let's say they would all go there own 
>>> separate way each create something unique and "arty". They all deliver a 
>>> beautiful theme but none of them seems usable enough to declare default.
>>> 
>>>   
>> As I've said, what, 6 or so times now in may threads, If people actually
>> come up with a complete, cohesive theme, I'll get it packaged and put in
>> the repos.
>>
>> OrangeSun and Blubuntu are examples of "complete and cohesive" themes.
>> That's the level of quality that should be strived for.
>>
>> -Cory \m/
>> 
> But what will become the default then?
>
> Hylke
>   

That's for Ken ans sabdfl to worry about. Maybe none of them. Being
default should not be one's motivation.

-Cory \m/


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Cory K. wrote:
> Hylke Bons wrote:
>   
>> Back to the 5 teams example. Let's say they would all go there own 
>> separate way each create something unique and "arty". They all deliver a 
>> beautiful theme but none of them seems usable enough to declare default.
>> 
>
> As I've said, what, 6 or so times now in may threads, If people actually
> come up with a complete, cohesive theme, I'll get it packaged and put in
> the repos.
>
> OrangeSun and Blubuntu are examples of "complete and cohesive" themes.
> That's the level of quality that should be strived for.
>
> -Cory \m/
But what will become the default then?

Hylke

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Hylke Bons wrote:
> Back to the 5 teams example. Let's say they would all go there own 
> separate way each create something unique and "arty". They all deliver a 
> beautiful theme but none of them seems usable enough to declare default.

As I've said, what, 6 or so times now in may threads, If people actually
come up with a complete, cohesive theme, I'll get it packaged and put in
the repos.

OrangeSun and Blubuntu are examples of "complete and cohesive" themes.
That's the level of quality that should be strived for.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Who wrote:
> This is the most important point on which our opinions differ: I think
> that, for now, we cannot expect to be able to predict what the
> 'default' theme must be - there ARE no guidelines and it seems that it
> is NOT the job of the artwork team to make these guidelines...  Please
> see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004280.html
> - this was the last comprehensive attempt I made to get guidelines for
> default theme design sorted. As you will see, Kwwii answered many of
> the questions, but they really need to be asked again each release.
>
> I would argue that we shouldn't guess what will work  as a default.
> Pre Ubuntu would _anyone_ have suggested making brown a default? Or
> orange? If the decision was down to this team, Edgy could have looked
> very different, Dapper too. It wasn't then, it isn't now, and until we
> prove we can do quality stuff and work within the Ubuntu system, it
> won't be.
>   
Back to the 5 teams example. Let's say they would all go there own 
separate way each create something unique and "arty". They all deliver a 
beautiful theme but none of them seems usable enough to declare default. 
Although there are none/few guidelines for building a ubuntu theme, 
there are human interface guidelines to go with.
What I'm trying to say is, everyone has a different taste, and that's 
ok, but we shouldn't let people work on something that won't be at all 
usable yet pretty.
I think ubuntu already has a lot of alternative themes to choose from.

> One final thing on 'wasting time'. I strongly believe the releases in
> which this team has had most effort result in least results are the
> times we've been obsessed by making 'default' work, designing a new
> default theme, etc.  We *just don't know well enough what sabdfl
> likes, wants, and is thinking*. When Kwwii comes with a clear spec,
> clears plans, etc, (and I really don't want to suggest it is his fault
> we don't have these!)  then we can rally around them and do some great
> stuff for a default theme. Until then, we need to work be our own
> bosses, and make our own decisions. If WE make a theme, make it
> available ('sudo apt-get install rocking-theme-number-3') then we'll
> have done a lot of good work, and had a lot of fun.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu
>
>   
Fun IS important!
I seriously think it would be a lot of fun if we'd all join forces on 
this one project, satisfying a lot of contributors that take the effort 
to sign up to the mailing list and make their wishes and ideas heard, 
rather than picking one out of 5 projects.

Coming to a default theme one way or the other, let's make sure we get 
the best of all themes where they fit, and leave stuff where others are 
lacking. :)

Hylke


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Who]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Hylke Bons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Who wrote:
>  > There is _one_ default theme, and a lot of people with vastly
>  > different ideas, pulling in lots of directions.
>  >
snip
>  > If you think that not having something you did as default means the
>  > time is wasted then this is NOT a place you are going to find
>  > reqarding UNTIL we have proved to sabdfl that we can do great work and
>  > better alternative for a default theme.
>  >
>  > The style of work required to make something _towards_ being default
>  > is almost entirely opposite to the style of working required to make a
>  > complete and original theme in a short space of time.
>  The default will have to follow some guidelines. You can make something
>  that's very creative and artistic and the most beautiful thing in the
>  world, but it's never going to work as a default, and people know it.
>  That's an example of "wasting time". We have to be clear and honest to
>  each other what will not get in, can get in or is possible to get in
>  with adjustments (all of these have passed the mailing list). At the
>  time there is nobody that does this.
>

This is the most important point on which our opinions differ: I think
that, for now, we cannot expect to be able to predict what the
'default' theme must be - there ARE no guidelines and it seems that it
is NOT the job of the artwork team to make these guidelines...  Please
see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004280.html
- this was the last comprehensive attempt I made to get guidelines for
default theme design sorted. As you will see, Kwwii answered many of
the questions, but they really need to be asked again each release.

I would argue that we shouldn't guess what will work  as a default.
Pre Ubuntu would _anyone_ have suggested making brown a default? Or
orange? If the decision was down to this team, Edgy could have looked
very different, Dapper too. It wasn't then, it isn't now, and until we
prove we can do quality stuff and work within the Ubuntu system, it
won't be.

One final thing on 'wasting time'. I strongly believe the releases in
which this team has had most effort result in least results are the
times we've been obsessed by making 'default' work, designing a new
default theme, etc.  We *just don't know well enough what sabdfl
likes, wants, and is thinking*. When Kwwii comes with a clear spec,
clears plans, etc, (and I really don't want to suggest it is his fault
we don't have these!)  then we can rally around them and do some great
stuff for a default theme. Until then, we need to work be our own
bosses, and make our own decisions. If WE make a theme, make it
available ('sudo apt-get install rocking-theme-number-3') then we'll
have done a lot of good work, and had a lot of fun.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu

This is one of the things I am most pleased I did as part of this team
- and it was never default, it wasn't even on the CD (was in
Universe), but it was FUN and I didn't feel like I wasted a second.

Making something "creative, artistic and the most beautiful thing in
the world" (your words above) is NOT a waste of time IF we make sure
it is in Ubuntu - it doesn't need to be default. Spending hours making
a theme that we *think* fulfills guidelines we *think* exist (and so
not being as creative as possible) and then finding we were way off
the (no pun intended...) mark, as has happened in releases in the
past, IS a waste of time.


>
>  > So we have this
>  > curious situation where the only way we could expect to make something
>  > capable of being the new default is to _forget about being default all
>  > together_!
>  >

And so we come back to this :)

I think I'm getting blunter :S I do not mean to offend, but I feel I
have been here long enough to be able to comment with some accuracy.

Who

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Who wrote:
> There is _one_ default theme, and a lot of people with vastly
> different ideas, pulling in lots of directions.
>
> If different people with different visions lead the teams in separate
> _parts_ of the main theme we get no overall style, decreased impact,
> decreased polish
>   
Of course the team leaders must be well experienced in their area and 
usability and have the same vision for the most part. The leaders will 
work closely with each other and passing the vision on to the team 
participants giving guidelines and such.

> BUT if the people with vision run theme teams we get
> - cohesive vision, complete theme
> - Much greater richness in Ubuntu design
> - Proof that the people on the artwork list can create something
> complete and convincing
>   
I agree. We have to find the right people.

> If you think that not having something you did as default means the
> time is wasted then this is NOT a place you are going to find
> reqarding UNTIL we have proved to sabdfl that we can do great work and
> better alternative for a default theme.
>   
> The style of work required to make something _towards_ being default
> is almost entirely opposite to the style of working required to make a
> complete and original theme in a short space of time.
The default will have to follow some guidelines. You can make something 
that's very creative and artistic and the most beautiful thing in the 
world, but it's never going to work as a default, and people know it. 
That's an example of "wasting time". We have to be clear and honest to 
each other what will not get in, can get in or is possible to get in 
with adjustments (all of these have passed the mailing list). At the 
time there is nobody that does this.

Hylke

> So we have this
> curious situation where the only way we could expect to make something
> capable of being the new default is to _forget about being default all
> together_!
>
> Who
>
>   


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Who]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Hylke Bons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cory K. wrote:
>
> > Hylke Bons wrote:
>  >
>  >> I like the sub-teams idea. But I think it's  a little unfair to let for
>  >> example 5 teams work on a full theme, while only one gets chosen.
>  >>
>  >
>  > If all someone wants to do is default art that's the wrong motivation.
>  > It ain't gonna happen. Ignoring getting into the default art is the best
>  > and most freeing way to go about it. No limits.
>  >
>  > -Cory \m/
>  Why is that the wrong motivation? Isn't that the goal for 8.10?
>  If someone wants to do a default theme to stroke their ego's or just for
>  fun, I don't really care, it's the result that counts.
>
>  What I wanted to make clear is that it's a waste of time when a lot of
>  teams put a huge amount of time in their themes when we all know the
>  most are not going to make it. Instead I think it's better and "fairer"
>  to set up teams by purpose. Like an icon team, gtk team, wallpaper team
>  etc. So we are sure we get the best of all worlds and the team leaders
>  can elaborate with each other about the direction and adjust the styles
>  to each other and get one awesome style for 8.10!
>

There is _one_ default theme, and a lot of people with vastly
different ideas, pulling in lots of directions.

If different people with different visions lead the teams in separate
_parts_ of the main theme we get no overall style, decreased impact,
decreased polish

BUT if the people with vision run theme teams we get
- cohesive vision, complete theme
- Much greater richness in Ubuntu design
- Proof that the people on the artwork list can create something
complete and convincing

If you think that not having something you did as default means the
time is wasted then this is NOT a place you are going to find
reqarding UNTIL we have proved to sabdfl that we can do great work and
better alternative for a default theme.

The style of work required to make something _towards_ being default
is almost entirely opposite to the style of working required to make a
complete and original theme in a short space of time. So we have this
curious situation where the only way we could expect to make something
capable of being the new default is to _forget about being default all
together_!

Who

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Hylke Bons wrote:
> Cory K. wrote:
>   
>> Hylke Bons wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> I like the sub-teams idea. But I think it's  a little unfair to let for 
>>> example 5 teams work on a full theme, while only one gets chosen.  
>>> 
>>>   
>> If all someone wants to do is default art that's the wrong motivation.
>> It ain't gonna happen. Ignoring getting into the default art is the best
>> and most freeing way to go about it. No limits.
>>
>> -Cory \m/
>> 
> Why is that the wrong motivation? Isn't that the goal for 8.10?
> If someone wants to do a default theme to stroke their ego's or just for 
> fun, I don't really care, it's the result that counts.
>   

It's the wrong motivation in the end because history here has shown that
very little of what has happened has ever gone into default. Regardless
of why this is, it's the way it is and won't change any time soon.

So take "stroking one's ego" out of the equation and just simple create
for arts sake.

But history of this list has also shown that people talk more than
create. So really, my trying to help focus things over the past 2 days
will likely fall on deaf ears as "the kids" always think they know
better. ;)

Oh well. Have fun. I'm done.

-Cory \m/

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Cory K. wrote:
> Hylke Bons wrote:
>   
>> I like the sub-teams idea. But I think it's  a little unfair to let for 
>> example 5 teams work on a full theme, while only one gets chosen.  
>> 
>
> If all someone wants to do is default art that's the wrong motivation.
> It ain't gonna happen. Ignoring getting into the default art is the best
> and most freeing way to go about it. No limits.
>
> -Cory \m/
Why is that the wrong motivation? Isn't that the goal for 8.10?
If someone wants to do a default theme to stroke their ego's or just for 
fun, I don't really care, it's the result that counts.

What I wanted to make clear is that it's a waste of time when a lot of 
teams put a huge amount of time in their themes when we all know the 
most are not going to make it. Instead I think it's better and "fairer" 
to set up teams by purpose. Like an icon team, gtk team, wallpaper team 
etc. So we are sure we get the best of all worlds and the team leaders 
can elaborate with each other about the direction and adjust the styles 
to each other and get one awesome style for 8.10!

Hylke

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Hylke Bons]

Cory K. wrote:
> Hylke Bons wrote:
>   
>> I like the sub-teams idea. But I think it's  a little unfair to let for 
>> example 5 teams work on a full theme, while only one gets chosen.  
>> 
>
> If all someone wants to do is default art that's the wrong motivation.
> It ain't gonna happen. Ignoring getting into the default art is the best
> and most freeing way to go about it. No limits.
>
> -Cory \m/
Why is that the wrong motivation? Isn't that the goal for 8.10?
If someone wants to do a default theme to stroke their ego's or just for 
fun, I don't really care, it's the result that counts.

What I wanted to make clear is that it's a waste of time when a lot of 
teams put a huge amount of time in their themes when we all know the 
most are not going to make it. Instead I think it's better and "fairer" 
to set up teams by purpose. Like an icon team, gtk team, wallpaper team 
etc. So we are sure we get the best of all worlds and the team leaders 
can elaborate with each other about the direction and adjust the styles 
to each other and get one awesome style for 8.10!

Hylke

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[ubuntu-art] Theme subteams

[Cory K.]

Hylke Bons wrote:
> Cory K. wrote:
>   
>> If people are putting work they would actually like to be considered on
>> the wiki (like they are supposed to) nothing will get lost. That's
>> usually is how it goes.
>>
>> This is why we need to get back to the "sub-teams" idea. People who like
>> a particular concept work together to get it done.  Only time will tell
>> if anyone actually has the motivation to get it done.
>>
>> -Cory \m/
>>   
>> 
>
> I like the sub-teams idea. But I think it's  a little unfair to let for 
> example 5 teams work on a full theme, while only one gets chosen.
>   

If all someone wants to do is default art that's the wrong motivation.
It ain't gonna happen. Ignoring getting into the default art is the best
and most freeing way to go about it. No limits.

-Cory \m/

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