Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shumon]

Thanks Shabab. Am looking into it.

Shumon
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shabab Mustafa]

Forgot to give the LinuxMint link: http://linuxmint.com/
---
Shabab Mustafa
Liaison Person
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab


On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Shabab Mustafa wrote:

> @ Shumon,
>
> I think you can try Linux Mint ( ) than Kubuntu. KDE is a bit advanced
> thing. You may not find it as user friendly as you are looking for.
>
> I completely agree with you about the Teaching/Training part. Till now the
> learning material / resources that are available are very much scattered and
> do not have a standard curriculum. Most of the tutorials were written
> discretely and aren't very semantic. We have a lot of scope to work on that.
>
>
> In my opinion, the major reasons about being confused about names or
> finding a user interface not friendly etc. comes from the lack of basic
> knowledges. In most of the cases applications have standardized names like
> 'media player', 'web browser', 'Image Editor' etc. If one can recognize
> 'Photoshop' but cannot understand what an 'image Editor/ manipulator' does,
> it is purely nothing but lack of knowledge.
>
>
> ---
> Shabab Mustafa
> Liaison Person
> Ubuntu Bangladesh
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab
>
>
> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Shumon  wrote:
>
>> Thanks all. I'll try to summarize/organize for our future reference. I'll
>> comment using "ME" per issue as needed.
>>
>> 1. Linux options for Windows GUI
>> a) Ylmf OS http://ylfm.org/en
>> b) Linux XP http://linux-xp.com/
>> c) Windows & look-alikes http://goo.gl/Zxstz
>> d) Kubuntu http://www.kubuntu.org/
>> e) FVWM http://www.fvwm.org/
>> ME: I'm leaning toward Kubuntu but which one is best for XP user with
>> lesser
>> multimedia, plug/play issues & has virtual space to run Windows software?
>>
>> 2. Unpopularity
>> ME: Even if it's not popular among the Linux community, it's no indicator
>> of
>> how it'll hold for the general population who may not know about this or
>> may
>> not know how to use it.
>>
>> 3. Support
>> a) ME: Organized support group is certainly a challenge at this time. But
>> let's at least take those primary steps we can to create that interest
>> among
>> general users. Any market has a spectrum of participants. Perhaps we won't
>> capture the other end of the spectrum but at least some in the middle or
>> closer than the middle will get interested. No?
>> b) Websites: http://www.linux.org.bd/ http://www.ubuntu-bd.org/ will be
>> up
>> in June/soon.
>> ME: Great!
>>
>> 4. Conversion
>> a) ME: Can we have a screen capture video tutorial displaying the benefits
>> of Ubuntu? This can be done easily with a freeware (only know of a windows
>> app) CamStudio.
>> b) ME: A series of such videos in Bangla would be simply wonderful. I can
>> help in production but my only handicap at this time is Windows :(
>>
>> 5. OpenOffice impractical
>> a) ME: Have to agree with Jewel. I use OpenOffice and maintain hundreds of
>> old .doc/.xls files as well. Most people don't utilize the thousands of
>> features in any of the softwares they use. I'd venture to say perhaps
>> 20-30
>> features at most. So OpenOffice is a practical option for MOST MSOffice
>> users.
>>
>> 6. Adoption: Memorization vs. Learning
>> ME: It's not exactly memorization but rather an effect of the power of
>> semiotics. Symbols make us think/behave/create expectations in a certain
>> way
>> without us being aware of it and it's very difficult to break that pattern
>> oneself, hence we need good teachers to help us. So, we can't simply blame
>> the people and instead provide them with good/efficient
>> teachers/tutorials.
>>
>> 7. OS terminlogy standard
>> ME: I understand what Jewel means. Using "Open-Excel" is a good idea. The
>> problem is copyright/trademark issues of course. But I think he means
>> having
>> similar naming conventions for similar functions. I am somewhat a dry
>> person
>> so I want functional names to things and can do without catchy names that
>> marketers love for their branding. I'd much rather have similar names for
>> similar functions so that I can make the connections and know my options
>> easily.
>>
>> 8. The problem of choice.
>> ME: Again agree with Jewel. Thousands of choice is not always good... of
>> course US consumer culture would say otherwise. Sometimes such degree of
>> choices are there to confuse and misinform. It can be just as bad as 1
>> choice. Here's someone who can explain it better than I ever can.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM and same at
>> http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
>>
>> 9. Overall comment.
>> ME: Guys, most of us are at least more technical than the general
>> population
>> but that doesn't mean we have to take every single word literally. Let's
>> try
>> to be sympathetic toward what the person is trying to communicate rather
>> than the particular words they are using.
>>
>> Shumon
>> --
>> Ubuntu Bangladesh
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>>
>
>
-- 
Ubuntu Banglade

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shabab Mustafa]

@ Shumon,

I think you can try Linux Mint ( ) than Kubuntu. KDE is a bit advanced
thing. You may not find it as user friendly as you are looking for.

I completely agree with you about the Teaching/Training part. Till now the
learning material / resources that are available are very much scattered and
do not have a standard curriculum. Most of the tutorials were written
discretely and aren't very semantic. We have a lot of scope to work on that.


In my opinion, the major reasons about being confused about names or finding
a user interface not friendly etc. comes from the lack of basic knowledges.
In most of the cases applications have standardized names like 'media
player', 'web browser', 'Image Editor' etc. If one can recognize 'Photoshop'
but cannot understand what an 'image Editor/ manipulator' does, it is purely
nothing but lack of knowledge.


---
Shabab Mustafa
Liaison Person
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab


On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Shumon  wrote:

> Thanks all. I'll try to summarize/organize for our future reference. I'll
> comment using "ME" per issue as needed.
>
> 1. Linux options for Windows GUI
> a) Ylmf OS http://ylfm.org/en
> b) Linux XP http://linux-xp.com/
> c) Windows & look-alikes http://goo.gl/Zxstz
> d) Kubuntu http://www.kubuntu.org/
> e) FVWM http://www.fvwm.org/
> ME: I'm leaning toward Kubuntu but which one is best for XP user with
> lesser
> multimedia, plug/play issues & has virtual space to run Windows software?
>
> 2. Unpopularity
> ME: Even if it's not popular among the Linux community, it's no indicator
> of
> how it'll hold for the general population who may not know about this or
> may
> not know how to use it.
>
> 3. Support
> a) ME: Organized support group is certainly a challenge at this time. But
> let's at least take those primary steps we can to create that interest
> among
> general users. Any market has a spectrum of participants. Perhaps we won't
> capture the other end of the spectrum but at least some in the middle or
> closer than the middle will get interested. No?
> b) Websites: http://www.linux.org.bd/ http://www.ubuntu-bd.org/ will be up
> in June/soon.
> ME: Great!
>
> 4. Conversion
> a) ME: Can we have a screen capture video tutorial displaying the benefits
> of Ubuntu? This can be done easily with a freeware (only know of a windows
> app) CamStudio.
> b) ME: A series of such videos in Bangla would be simply wonderful. I can
> help in production but my only handicap at this time is Windows :(
>
> 5. OpenOffice impractical
> a) ME: Have to agree with Jewel. I use OpenOffice and maintain hundreds of
> old .doc/.xls files as well. Most people don't utilize the thousands of
> features in any of the softwares they use. I'd venture to say perhaps 20-30
> features at most. So OpenOffice is a practical option for MOST MSOffice
> users.
>
> 6. Adoption: Memorization vs. Learning
> ME: It's not exactly memorization but rather an effect of the power of
> semiotics. Symbols make us think/behave/create expectations in a certain
> way
> without us being aware of it and it's very difficult to break that pattern
> oneself, hence we need good teachers to help us. So, we can't simply blame
> the people and instead provide them with good/efficient teachers/tutorials.
>
> 7. OS terminlogy standard
> ME: I understand what Jewel means. Using "Open-Excel" is a good idea. The
> problem is copyright/trademark issues of course. But I think he means
> having
> similar naming conventions for similar functions. I am somewhat a dry
> person
> so I want functional names to things and can do without catchy names that
> marketers love for their branding. I'd much rather have similar names for
> similar functions so that I can make the connections and know my options
> easily.
>
> 8. The problem of choice.
> ME: Again agree with Jewel. Thousands of choice is not always good... of
> course US consumer culture would say otherwise. Sometimes such degree of
> choices are there to confuse and misinform. It can be just as bad as 1
> choice. Here's someone who can explain it better than I ever can.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM and same at
> http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
>
> 9. Overall comment.
> ME: Guys, most of us are at least more technical than the general
> population
> but that doesn't mean we have to take every single word literally. Let's
> try
> to be sympathetic toward what the person is trying to communicate rather
> than the particular words they are using.
>
> Shumon
> --
> Ubuntu Bangladesh
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shumon]

Thanks all. I'll try to summarize/organize for our future reference. I'll
comment using "ME" per issue as needed.

1. Linux options for Windows GUI
a) Ylmf OS http://ylfm.org/en
b) Linux XP http://linux-xp.com/
c) Windows & look-alikes http://goo.gl/Zxstz
d) Kubuntu http://www.kubuntu.org/
e) FVWM http://www.fvwm.org/
ME: I'm leaning toward Kubuntu but which one is best for XP user with lesser
multimedia, plug/play issues & has virtual space to run Windows software?

2. Unpopularity
ME: Even if it's not popular among the Linux community, it's no indicator of
how it'll hold for the general population who may not know about this or may
not know how to use it.

3. Support
a) ME: Organized support group is certainly a challenge at this time. But
let's at least take those primary steps we can to create that interest among
general users. Any market has a spectrum of participants. Perhaps we won't
capture the other end of the spectrum but at least some in the middle or
closer than the middle will get interested. No?
b) Websites: http://www.linux.org.bd/ http://www.ubuntu-bd.org/ will be up
in June/soon.
ME: Great!

4. Conversion
a) ME: Can we have a screen capture video tutorial displaying the benefits
of Ubuntu? This can be done easily with a freeware (only know of a windows
app) CamStudio.
b) ME: A series of such videos in Bangla would be simply wonderful. I can
help in production but my only handicap at this time is Windows :(

5. OpenOffice impractical
a) ME: Have to agree with Jewel. I use OpenOffice and maintain hundreds of
old .doc/.xls files as well. Most people don't utilize the thousands of
features in any of the softwares they use. I'd venture to say perhaps 20-30
features at most. So OpenOffice is a practical option for MOST MSOffice
users.

6. Adoption: Memorization vs. Learning
ME: It's not exactly memorization but rather an effect of the power of
semiotics. Symbols make us think/behave/create expectations in a certain way
without us being aware of it and it's very difficult to break that pattern
oneself, hence we need good teachers to help us. So, we can't simply blame
the people and instead provide them with good/efficient teachers/tutorials.

7. OS terminlogy standard
ME: I understand what Jewel means. Using "Open-Excel" is a good idea. The
problem is copyright/trademark issues of course. But I think he means having
similar naming conventions for similar functions. I am somewhat a dry person
so I want functional names to things and can do without catchy names that
marketers love for their branding. I'd much rather have similar names for
similar functions so that I can make the connections and know my options
easily.

8. The problem of choice.
ME: Again agree with Jewel. Thousands of choice is not always good... of
course US consumer culture would say otherwise. Sometimes such degree of
choices are there to confuse and misinform. It can be just as bad as 1
choice. Here's someone who can explain it better than I ever can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM and same at
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html

9. Overall comment.
ME: Guys, most of us are at least more technical than the general population
but that doesn't mean we have to take every single word literally. Let's try
to be sympathetic toward what the person is trying to communicate rather
than the particular words they are using.

Shumon
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Nasimul Haque]

On 17 May 2011 19:57, Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman  wrote:
> If a programmer learns anything like Object/ class/ consturctor/ abstrction/
> encapsulation/  and uses any product of a company say .NET and if s/he
> needs to work on another lanuage like PHP, s/he doesn't need to hunt for
> the name, what is used in PHP for that. Just s/he can search for example
> of class/constructor in php. And, s/he will get the answer. This is not
> memorising, this is from learning. If I need diffrent different name all
> time, that is memorisation.

These are concepts for programming languages. And, of course, you need
to learn completely from the beginning for different languages.

In user interfaces, people know OSes have settings/preferences but
they have to learn where are they located. Exactly same as a
programmer knows there will be function but he needs to know how to
write it in different languages.

>> Having choices is the main goal of the open source movement. This is the
>> exact reason you have thousands of Linux distro, hundreds of desktop
>> environments, etc.
>> You can hop around them and make a choice of yours.
>>
>>
>
> Having choices is good for any software, but thousands of distro (not
> version) for same OS rather becomes a trouble for a new user to choose
> the right solution.
>
> Source; the main goal of the open source movement is the openness of the
> source code. If the source code is not open that is called proprietary
> software. And all the open source supporter support open source because
> source is open and it gives freedom to the user that s/he can know what s/he
> is choosing.

Why do you need sources for the software? Because you want to change
it to your specific needs. I want to change it to my specific needs.
That is why we need different names for my version of the software to
your version to the original version. So naming is not particularly
important. It helps if it has a good name from where a user can guess
what does it do. But that's all to the name.

The world class popular software actually have completely unrelated
names for their purpose. Yet people know them, use them, love them.

e.g., 'Windows', 'Linux': do they have the 'OS' attached to it?
'Cyberlink': what does it do?
'Skype': does it make you fly or what?
The list can go on forever.

> I have many common views that have been mentioned in this thread. So, don't
> think I am differing each and every view with you. I am trying to express
> those thing that I think missing.

It's alright. This is a very interesting topic. This is why open
source communities are different than the closed ones. Here we do like
to debate on things that we'd like to improve.

-- 
M. Nasimul Haque
Senior Developer
Appliansys
Coventry, UK
http://www.nasim.me.uk

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shabab Mustafa]

@Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman,

Please, don't take anything personally but I found your point of
arguments are rather more hypothetical than practical. Just think it
for a moment. Have you ever heard about distros named Caixa Mágica,
Salix, Zentyle, Nachos, PAIPIX, Hacao or Vyatta? I am sure not only
you, more than 95% members of this mailing list, who are already Linux
users, are not familiar with these names.

Now how about distros like, Ubuntu, Fedora, Opensuse, Linux Mint,
Debian, RetHat or CentOS? Most of the users are familiar with this
names and usages.

So, how a newbie can be lost on something they are not even concerned about?

When I got toothache, I go to a dentist. When I need to sew my old
shoes, I find for a cobbler. If I need to go somewhere new, I go to
the bus stand and ask the counterman, "I want go 'this place', which
bus goes there?" And when a newbie want to try a Linux distro, s/he
asks for advice from an existing Linux user. Even if they search in
Google for that, it is highly unlikely that s/he ends up with some
distro called 'VLOS' or 'UTUTO'.

Newbies may feel lost after installing a distro, not when choosing it.
---
Shabab Mustafa
Liaison Person
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[M. Adnan Quaium]

About the naming convention, when I use Ubuntu and go to Office, I see
Presentation, Spreadsheet and Wordprocessor. Those names are really self
explanatory comparing to Powerpoint and Excel (Word is exceptional though).
For a newbie, what does the names Excel and Powerpoint stand for? How could
a newbie know that 'Excel' is for spreadsheet, 'Access' is for database and
'Powerpoint' is for presentation? In this case, to my opinion, Ubuntu is
maintaining an 'easy' standard for naming convention for the user.

Yah, I also say that Windows has its own features and GNU has its own
> features, but no common standards. So, problem is lacking of a standard.
> (Note: Standards exist for OS, it is maintained in the perspective of
> develper but not in the perspective of an end-user. I wanted to say it)
>

I don't get it. If you think all the OS should be same looking then there
should not be necessity of other OS. And everyone would be sued by
Microsoft. And I wouldn't find the fact that there is another OS which is
easier for me to use than Windows. Moreover if the two standards (POSIX and
Windows) are merged together there will be a hell of massacre from file
system to software running.

   If a programmer learns anything like Object/ class/ consturctor/
> abstrction/encapsulation/  and uses any product of a company say .NET
> and if s/he needs to work on another lanuage like PHP, s/he doesn't need to
> hunt for the name, what is used in PHP for that. Just s/he can search for
> example of class/constructor in php. And, s/he will get the answer. This is
> not memorising, this is from learning. If I need diffrent different name all
> time, that is memorisation.
>
>
Why the different names are so difficult? In Ubuntu we get 'System', in
Windows the same thing is 'Control Panel'. As long as the terms are self
explanatory, I do not see any problem with the 'names'. Yes... if the
'System' menu in Kubuntu is called 'Planet Zombie' than it would be a
problem. Because the user have no idea what a 'Planet Zombie' is doing in
the menu.

Having choices is good for any software, but thousands of distro (not
> version) for same OS rather becomes a trouble for a new user to choose the
> right solution.
>
>
Not the 'thousand of distros from same OS', it should be 'thousands of
distros or OSs from the same kernel'. It should be a good news, that at
least a bunch of OSs are actually maintaining a same Kernel standards! Not
all distros are for everyone. From the very beginning, Linux based OSs are
created for specified people. Different distros are for different categories
of people. Well... for the general users there is always Ubuntu.
Nevertheless, general people doesn't know that there are several distros,
unless you tell them to scare. When I promote Ubuntu to someone, they think
'Ubuntu == Linux'. Gradually they figure out that there are hundreds of
other distros which are made for special jobs. At that time they don't get
confused that much. A new user, in any OS, do not get confused by
themselves. Does a MAC user confused by so many OSs of BSD? Or does a
Windows user confused by so many versions of Windows? No, because there is
no one to scare them. So in any OSs. there is a very little chance of
confusion. And for the people who are using it, they really like the
'choice'. 'Choice' is why I am using Ubuntu & Kubuntu. If I had no choice,
then I had to use Windows and had to install Windows in every month. So
choice is important.

-- 
M. Adnan Quaium

URL: http://adnan.quaium.com
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 6:41 PM, Nasimul Haque wrote:

> Naming does not have any relation with standardisation. What is the
> standard of being my name is Nasim and yours is Jewel or someone
> else's is Joe?
>

 Naming is not too much important. I mentioned that I used name
as example for simplicity. But, naming convention is also important,
specially for a new user.

Say, one need to make a presentation slide. If s/he gets MS Office, he needs
to find out POWER POINT and if s/he gets OpenOffice, s/he needs to find
out IMPRESS. Now, do these name make any sense? Is s/he will able to open
correct program before trying all the  icons? and after getting the correct
one s/he needs to memorize that
Presentaion = POWER POINT in MS Office and
Presentaion = IMPRESS in OpenOffice.

So, though naming is not vital but important.


>
> Windows has its own standards and Unix world has its own (called POSIX).
>

Yah, I also say that Windows has its own features and GNU has its own
features, but no common standards. So, problem is lacking of a standard.
(Note: Standards exist for OS, it is maitained in the perspective of
develper but not in the perspective of an end-user. I wanted to say it)



>
>  When you suggest windows control panel should behave like linux system
>  preference you are encouraging the memorisation. Literacy is not
>  memorising.
>

If a programmer learns anything like Object/ class/ consturctor/ abstrction/
encapsulation/  and uses any product of a company say .NET and if s/he
needs to work on another lanuage like PHP, s/he doesn't need to hunt for
the name, what is used in PHP for that. Just s/he can search for example
of class/constructor in php. And, s/he will get the answer. This is not
memorising, this is from learning. If I need diffrent different name all
time, that is memorisation.


>
> Having choices is the main goal of the open source movement. This is the
> exact reason you have thousands of Linux distro, hundreds of desktop
> environments, etc.
> You can hop around them and make a choice of yours.
>
>

Having choices is good for any software, but thousands of distro (not
version) for same OS rather becomes a trouble for a new user to choose
the right solution.

Source; the main goal of the open source movement is the openness of the
source code. If the source code is not open that is called proprietary
software. And all the open source supporter support open source because
source is open and it gives freedom to the user that s/he can know what s/he
is choosing.

I have many common views that have been mentioned in this thread. So, don't
think I am differing each and every view with you. I am trying to express
those thing that I think missing.
--
Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman (Jewel)
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Nasimul Haque]

Naming does not have any relation with standardisation. What is the
standard of being my name is Nasim and yours is Jewel or someone
else's is Joe?

OS standards do exist and developers follow them. Windows has its own
standards and Unix world has its own (called POSIX). That is why all
Windows works the same even the cosmetics are different. Also Linux,
BSD, Mac, Solaris, etc. works the same even cosmetics and some of the
underlying techs vary.

There is absolutely no need for having the same kind of name for
similar type of software. It is better to have different and catchy
names.

When you suggest windows control panel should behave like linux system
preference you are encouraging the memorisation. Literacy is not
memorising.

If you take a look at the existing desktop environments for Linux
around you, you'll see gnome, kde, etc. do call their things
differently. And that is what things should be. Having choices is the
main goal of the open source movement. This is the exact reason you
have thousands of Linux distro, hundreds of desktop environments, etc.
You can hop around them and make a choice of yours.

-- 
M. Nasimul Haque
Senior Developer
Appliansys
Coventry, UK
http://www.nasim.me.uk

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman]

Yah, Problem for people that they are memorising, not learning. And, the
problems with OS and other software exist not only in Bangladesh but whole
the world, though in our contry ratio is high.

So, in my opinion, main problem is, lack of standardization in OS and some
other software.

For example, There are standard for SQL. So, when a person learn SQL
then s/he is able to work easily on MSSQL or MySQL or other. Even by name
anyone can realize what the product is. Syntax are also similar. May be few
features can vary depending on different company.

But, no standard for OS . So,
One is calling Control Panel, another is System.
One keeps menu bottom, another in top.
One keeps button left, another in right.
These are minor difference and also adjustable, just for example.

Another example can be given from Office. (MSOffice/OpenOffice, this name is
OK)
If the software is Spreadsheet; then it may be MS-Spreadsheet and
Open-Spreadsheet or something like this. So that, user can recognize by name
what it is and product of which company.
But, one is calling MS-Excel another is Open-Calc
If the standard is Excel, then it should be MS-Excel and Open-Excel
If the standard is Calc, then it should be MS-Calc and Open-Calc.
I am giving just name only to realize the problem in simple way.

In case of OS and few other Software, Options are very limited and still no
standard is set. Everyone is hiring a new thing/concept for almost ervery
cases rather maintaining a standard. New things are needed for continous
developement but rapid/frequently changes due to absent of a
standard, common users are suffering.
-- 
Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman (Jewel)
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Aniruddha Adhikary]

অংক না শিখে মুখস্ত করলে দোষ যদি পরীক্ষা খারাপ হয়, তবে নতুন বানানো
অংকের ওপর দোষ দেয়া হয়। এটাই নিয়ম!

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Shabab Mustafa  wrote:
> Believe me or not, after interacting with people of different ages in field,
> I came to a conclusion, the 'alien interface' thing nothing but a mental
> barrier and it is more common with people who 'memorized' the computer
> operation than 'learning' it. I think 'Will of learning' is the thing they
> lack than new interface or anything.
>
> I have seen people who can locate a particular folder under 'Program Files'
> in Windows, but got puzzled when he try to open Openoffice Writer right
> under their nose. They can open Control Panel to tweak things and found too
> hard to locate 'System' menu just in front their eyes. I can't categorize
> this kind of behavior anything but 'Memorizing over Learning' syndrom which
> we adopt from our education system, intensely developed by the colonial
> rulers to produce some 'Educated Slaves', from very early age. (One of our
> member here, Goutom Roy is an active researcher and expert in BD education
> by profession. He is way well capable of explaining these things than
> myself.)
>
> In my personal opinion, what people denoted 'comfort with old interface' is
> technically a 'fear of new thing'. I don't think inforcing such baseless
> fear would be a smart idea. Spending time to find and develop stargies to
> help those people to overcome this illogical fear is far more worth spending
> than designing a 'look a like' interface. We cannot get 'freedom' with
> mocking 'slavery' by naming it 'comfort'. A drug addict has more 'comfort'
> with using drugs. Will encouraging to be more 'comfortable' be a suitable
> solution for them? I don't think so.
>
> My insight says, 'suppressing' a problem is not a 'good solution' than
> 'solving' it.
>
> ---
> Shabab Mustafa
> Liaison Person
> Ubuntu Bangladesh
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab
> --
> Ubuntu Bangladesh
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd
>



-- 
বাংলাদেশী একমাত্র ডেডিকেটেড লিনাক্স সম্পর্কিত
ফোরাম

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shabab Mustafa]

Believe me or not, after interacting with people of different ages in field,
I came to a conclusion, the 'alien interface' thing nothing but a mental
barrier and it is more common with people who 'memorized' the computer
operation than 'learning' it. I think 'Will of learning' is the thing they
lack than new interface or anything.

I have seen people who can locate a particular folder under 'Program Files'
in Windows, but got puzzled when he try to open Openoffice Writer right
under their nose. They can open Control Panel to tweak things and found too
hard to locate 'System' menu just in front their eyes. I can't categorize
this kind of behavior anything but 'Memorizing over Learning' syndrom which
we adopt from our education system, intensely developed by the colonial
rulers to produce some 'Educated Slaves', from very early age. (One of our
member here, Goutom Roy is an active researcher and expert in BD education
by profession. He is way well capable of explaining these things than
myself.)

In my personal opinion, what people denoted 'comfort with old interface' is
technically a 'fear of new thing'. I don't think inforcing such baseless
fear would be a smart idea. Spending time to find and develop stargies to
help those people to overcome this illogical fear is far more worth spending
than designing a 'look a like' interface. We cannot get 'freedom' with
mocking 'slavery' by naming it 'comfort'. A drug addict has more 'comfort'
with using drugs. Will encouraging to be more 'comfortable' be a suitable
solution for them? I don't think so.

My insight says, 'suppressing' a problem is not a 'good solution' than
'solving' it.

---
Shabab Mustafa
Liaison Person
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shabab
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Nasimul Haque]

On 16 May 2011 11:38, Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman  wrote:
> No, I think it is practical if easily adoptable. Any document created with
> MS Office can be open with OpenOffice. So, using OpenOffice old doc file can
> be open, edit, update; no problem, MS Office no longer required. And any new
> file can be created using OpenOffice. If OpenOffice can't open MS Office
> docs then You can say it. But, if you look, File created with Office7 (docx,
> xlsx etc) can't open with previous Office but OpenOffice can open them. So,
> OpenOffice can be better option.

Did I mention MS Office or OpenOffice there, at all? This is the
general case. This is true for any software.

There are thousands of features in MS Office which are completely
incompatible with any other office software. If you are lucky and did
not use them in your document. You are safe to use them in OpenOffice.
Sadly, people do use those extra features heavily.

I know it better because I have to deal with this MS Office everyday
as everyone in my project uses it.


-- 
M. Nasimul Haque
Senior Developer
Appliansys
Coventry, UK
http://www.nasim.me.uk

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Miah M. Hussainuzzaman]

Let me add some fuel to this discussion by sharing a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption

What is the problem with all those people mentioned in the link, why did
they left the "easy" windows?

-- শামীম।
Mobile phone: +8801731 216 486
Homepage  ; ব্লগসমূহ: পরিবেশ
প্রকৌশলীর প্যাচাল  ; খিচুড়ী
ব্লগ;
সচলায়তন 
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Nasimul Haque wrote:

> On 16 May 2011 09:40, Shumon  wrote:
> > Shahriar, I understood what Nasim meant. How about a slightly different
> > strategy to converting overnight or even all my old files? How about I
> keep
> > my old .doc files as is and simply keep on creating new .doc or .odt
> files
> > using OpenOffice?
>
> This is completely impractical. The old documents are not kept for
> eating your hard disks only. You need to open them, update them, etc.
> from time to time. If you need a proprietary software for using your
> old documents, then it is easier to continue using the proprietary
> software to create new documents. People do not use multiple tools for
> the same job. They stick to the simplest one possible.
>
No, I think it is practical if easily adoptable. Any document created with
MS Office can be open with OpenOffice. So, using OpenOffice old doc file can
be open, edit, update; no problem, MS Office no longer required. And any new
file can be created using OpenOffice. If OpenOffice can't open MS Office
docs then You can say it. But, if you look, File created with Office7 (docx,
xlsx etc) can't open with previous Office but OpenOffice can open them. So,
OpenOffice can be better option.

---
Mohammad Mukhtaruzzaman (Jewel)
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Nasimul Haque]

Correction: It should be FVWM not LVWM. They have changed the project
name, I think.
-- 
M. Nasimul Haque
Senior Developer
Appliansys
Coventry, UK
http://www.nasim.me.uk

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Nasimul Haque]

On 16 May 2011 09:40, Shumon  wrote:
> Shahriar, I understood what Nasim meant. How about a slightly different
> strategy to converting overnight or even all my old files? How about I keep
> my old .doc files as is and simply keep on creating new .doc or .odt files
> using OpenOffice?

This is completely impractical. The old documents are not kept for
eating your hard disks only. You need to open them, update them, etc.
from time to time. If you need a proprietary software for using your
old documents, then it is easier to continue using the proprietary
software to create new documents. People do not use multiple tools for
the same job. They stick to the simplest one possible.

You can easily make your Ubuntu look like windows GUI. There are
couple of DE out there that looks like windows. For example, LVWM.
Just install it and select the session on login. You'll be presented
with the familiar look.

-- 
M. Nasimul Haque
Senior Developer
Appliansys
Coventry, UK
http://www.nasim.me.uk

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[M. Adnan Quaium]

Dear Shumon,

Everybody has their own opinion. Everyone is different so is their opinions.
So don't even think that your's is a dopey one. Feel free to suggest and/or
discuss about the community in the the community. We do have a real warm
heart. :)

First of all, I am sorry that I misinterpreted "the GUI of XP". As I
mentioned in my earlier post, if anyone wants a GUI closer to XP or Windows,
he/she can use Kubuntu ( http://www.kubuntu.org/ ). The learning curve of
Kubuntu should be more gradual than Ubuntu as Kubuntu has a look n' feel of
Windows. So your idea of 'closeness to Windows' is already out there.

About 'Wubuntu', have you heard of "Lindows"? It was an linux based OS which
has been sued by Microsoft for violating the name/trademark (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._Lindows ). So it is really not a
good idea. Nevertheless, there is already Kubuntu, so we do not need a new
name/branding.

I totally agree with your saying - "Most people change for practical
reasons, not philosophical". I personally like Ubuntu for its stability,
user friendliness, ease of use, cool effects etc. These are the practical
reasons for me which I don't find in Windows. I like the idea of FOSS, but
that doesn't mean I am a die hard fan of FOSS philosophy. (By the way we are
Ubuntu Local Community, please don't conflate this with FOSS community) If
Canonical put a price on Ubuntu, I'll continue to use Ubuntu by buying it as
long as I can afford it. (If I can't afford it I have no way to use it,
right!) But I don't feel the same for Windows. What I want to say is - I
like Ubuntu for it's practical reasons not for the philosophical reasons,
also I don't like Windows for it's practical reasons not for its
philosophical reasons. When I promote Ubuntu to someone, I don't bother to
explicate the FOSS philosophy. I simply show them Ubuntu from the live CD
and show them the vantage points of using Ubuntu. In my experience, this
process really works well. Whoever thinks that, GUI is a practical reason, I
simply refer them Kubuntu and they are happy about that.

About the websites, we've already started to work and hopefully within a few
weeks they will be back again.


-- 
M. Adnan Quaium

URL: http://adnan.quaium.com
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shahriar Tariq]

Dear Shumon bhai,
There are already windows look alike system ylfm os or linux xp and
there are many gnome themes that will make any gnome based distro look
like windows system. Do you think they are popular than Ubuntu or
fedora or linux mint or any other mainstream distro?
No.
Why? Because in the end people went for functionality & usability

If you check you will find general users (ie windows users) think our
community as cult (something like religious group). We always
emphasize on freedom and piracy issue. Both of them are important but
people really don't care about either of them. Proof? I have found
most of active linux community members are still involved with piracy
(pirated movie songs?). And general people don't get the benefit of
openness.

So as a community we should put emphasis on having well organized
support group to provide professional grade solution to user problem.
Proper documentation, on call support. Which at this moment is missing
in our community. As a result even if we manage to create interest
among general user, they loose interest when they have to figure out
every bit by asking other or searching in different forums/blogs.

I personally would like to start training schedule for our own
volunteers so they have full fledged knowledge on the system and able
to help anyone on any topic. Sadly at this stage we are not in a
position to conduct such training. Perhaps in the near future things
will change and we will be able to metarialize this

On websites and blog. We have already started working on this sector.
Hopfully by first week of June they will be up and functioning


http:\\linux-xp.com
http:\\ylfm.org/en
http:\\www.learnthisblog.co.cc/2010/02/10-free-windows-7-look-alike-theme-for_4915.html

-- 
Thanking you,
Shahriar Tariq

Volunteer, Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance 

Team Contact, Ubuntu Bangladesh 

Founding Member, Amigos Clothing 
Personal Blog: আশাবাদীর দিনপঞ্জিকা  (এখন পাতা শেষ)

Endorsement:
আমাদের প্রযুক্তি ফোরাম http://forum.amaderprojukti.com/
and
মুক্ত.অর্গ http://mukto.org

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shumon]

Dear MAQ-tanim & Ashabadi ;)

Thank you for your candid comments. As you may note, I don't claim to know
the right answer but sharing some opinions which in discussion with people
like yourselves will hopefully improve.

Adnan, minor clarification, I don't claim XP to be user friendly or standard
GUI in a design sense but you might agree most people who use it are
"comfortable" with it and would rather not learn a new interface. Would it
be so bad if we could get all the benefits of Linux while using an XP-like
interface? It may not be a perfect solution, but a practical one. And I'm
sure the person who will provide such a solution will do a great service for
the community at large. I like your dubbing "XPbuntu". I will add my
suggestion, "Wubuntu", which can be pronounced same hence it's philosophy
while an association with Windows.

You note correctly that it takes us a long time to become good at XP, or the
first OS. Would I invest even a quarter of that time to learn a new one?
Perhaps. Will most people? I don't think so. Most people change for
practical reasons, not philosophical. Can we at least give him/her that
practical option?

Shahriar, I understood what Nasim meant. How about a slightly different
strategy to converting overnight or even all my old files? How about I keep
my old .doc files as is and simply keep on creating new .doc or .odt files
using OpenOffice? Should I not at least expect the FOSS community to inform
me of this option even though I may not be philosophically fully committed
to changing everything overnight? I would like to see the FOSS community to
serve the public without demanding full conversion. In this sense, we'd be
different from some of the other fundamentalist groups in Bangldesh.

But let's put all that aside as I may be wrong about my opinions. I am
curious to find out from those of you who are promoting FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu in
Bangladesh, what is the community's strategy to get more people to leave
Windows/proprietary software?

I had hoped a central website would have some information easily but there
seems to be only a placeholder page at http://www.linux.org.bd/ and is being
used solely for Google Apps by the Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance (which
probably doesn't have incoming mail service anymore). And
http://www.ubuntu-bd.org/ 's hosting accounting has been suspended. Not sure
why there isn't a website for either but more importantly, let's re-awaken
these giants and I would like to help whether in providing hosting, web
development and/or content editing. Let's serve the public to become more
aware of their technology options.

Shumon
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shumon]

Dear Adnan & Shahriar,

Thank you for your comments. I had drafted a letter to Adnan last night that
needed to be reviewed and now edited to include Shahriar's comments. I'll
try to reply by the end of the day so please don't interpret my silence as
displeasure or disengagement. Thanks.

Shumon
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shahriar Tariq]

btw Sumon bhai, I agree with point 1 and 4 why windows user will
switch to alternative os :)

-- 
Thanking you,
Shahriar Tariq

Volunteer, Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance 

Team Contact, Ubuntu Bangladesh 

Founding Member, Amigos Clothing 
Personal Blog: আশাবাদীর দিনপঞ্জিকা  (এখন পাতা শেষ)

Endorsement:
আমাদের প্রযুক্তি ফোরাম http://forum.amaderprojukti.com/
and
মুক্ত.অর্গ http://mukto.org
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shahriar Tariq]

Dear Sumon bhai,
I hope you are taking our email responses as constructive
conversation/debate raher than tounge lashing.
Saying that I would like to point out that I think you have
misunderstood Nasim bhai's point of switching app/platform due to
software/system dependability

What Nasim bhai as pointed out that
If you have thousands of content based on propritory format/app it
won't work properly on foss apps. Even simple word document created in
MS office won't retain its formating objects  formulas properly in ooo
or libraoffice. Converting one or two bijoy document is not a problem,
but think of converring all those thousands article you have
collected/prepared for last ten fifteen years.
I dont have proprietory codec installed on my system. I have converted
my 5gb+- song and video collection to open format like ogg and ogv. It
took me around 2 months to finish converting. Now whenever I download
something I convert it to open format. Now imagine a user who has
collection of around 200gb proprietory contents. Will the user be
interested to convert all his content to open source one? I highly
doubt it.

Thats why beside promoting openness we should promote usability
functionality of open source apps. And if any interested users (not
just tasters who want to taste how is linux) spend reasonable amount
of time s/he will find the usability and functionalty. People have
alreaey adopted many open source app unknowingly since they found
value in using it. We must promote the value.

Wanna help us how we can add/promote value please drop us a line

-- 
Thanking you,
Shahriar Tariq

Volunteer, Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance 

Team Contact, Ubuntu Bangladesh 

Founding Member, Amigos Clothing 
Personal Blog: আশাবাদীর দিনপঞ্জিকা  (এখন পাতা শেষ)

Endorsement:
আমাদের প্রযুক্তি ফোরাম http://forum.amaderprojukti.com/
and
মুক্ত.অর্গ http://mukto.org

-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[M. Adnan Quaium]

Dear Shumon Jahan,

If I am not wrong the summary of your first email was - "turn Ubuntu into
something similar to Windows XP abandoning the unique look and feel of
Ubuntu, so that lots of XP users can easily migrate to Ubuntu without any
hassle". Is that so? If yes, then I am curious what makes you believe that
XP has a user friendly or a standard GUI? People are so used to with the big
green START button of XP that they think the GUI of XP is the standard for
user friendliness. Well I am very much interested to know how could the GUI
of an OS be the symbol of user friendliness, which has a START button which
does not start the OS but stops it? It is more "accustom" rather than "user
friendliness". Ubuntu is not hard at all, it is just different! It is a
different OS, which has a different way to install softwares, to handle
files, to use desktop etc. You cannot expect Ubuntu to be same as XP. Or it
would be known as XPbuntu or something like that. Ubuntu and Windows - they
are totally different in every aspects. Linux has its own way to install and
manage packages. [1] Why do we need to follow the path of Windows? In my
point of view the look n' feel of Ubuntu is JUST PERFECT. In fact I love
Ubuntu for having different and unique look. But if you miss the look n'
feel of XP then you should go for Kubuntu, instead of Ubuntu.

In the first mail, you also pinpointed some 5 reasons for people to switch
from Windows. Well... in Bangladesh, believe it or not, people does not give
a damn about those 5 points. They use Windows because:
- they don't know that Windows is not the only OS out there
- people around them use Windows
- they think computer as an advanced machine combined with calculator,
typewriter, music system, dvd player and gaming console. No one cares what
is the OS of a calculator or a gaming console, likewise they don't care
about the OS of a computer
We need to overcome these facts to spread Ubuntu in Bangladesh.

If I am not mistaken, from your mails, it seemed to me that, you were trying
to mention that still Ubuntu is not for GENERAL USERS, it is too hard or it
has a very steep learning curve, people need to figure out every single
details. I disagree with you. Just remember your first time Windows
experience. Did you accomplish all the things at the first sit? Didn't you
take help from other expertises in various issues? How much time did it take
to figure out Windows completely? And how much time are you spending for
Ubuntu? When I first switch to Windows 95 from a general calculator, it took
me a few years to take control of my Windows machine completely. And when I
switched to Ubuntu, it took me a couple months. I am neither a geek nor a
computer nerd. I have no idea about the codings of Ubuntu or how they works.
I don't program my own computer, I just operate it. I use Ubuntu and only
Ubuntu for my everyday computer usage. I am just an average computer user.
When I first started to use Ubuntu, I was one of the dumbest Ubuntu user in
the community. Need proof? Then check out [2]. Ubuntu-BD community helped me
to smooth my learning curve. I am really grateful to the community.
Nevertheless, I can confidently assure you that, one doesn't need to be an
OS expert (btw what does OS expert mean? I never heard that term before.) to
operate Ubuntu for day to day use.

Ubuntu-BD already has some mavens. Stay tune with us and you can figure them
out by yourself. Enjoy your stay with the community.


References:
[1] http://adnan.quaium.com/blog/22
[2] http://adnan.quaium.com/blog/1221

-- 
M. Adnan Quaium

URL: http://adnan.quaium.com
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Shumon]

You're right Shamim. Perhaps one doesn't have to be an OS expert. But you
know, most people, like myself, don't want to figure every single thing out
for themselves, nor can we. We depend on others to help us sometimes. If we
didn't build on each other's expertise, we'd still be in the stone ages, no?
So all I'm recommending is for some expert(s) to figure out the solutions
for seamless migration and then communicate it to the 10s of us. Then a few
amongst those 10s who have the teaching talent can easily teach it to
thousands. That's how civilizations get built.

I'd like to use Mehdi Hasan Khan, the developer of Avro & a
maven,
as an example. He, being socially minded, having the talent and the
discipline, has almost single handedly changed Bangla online for all of us.
Now in hindsight we may say it was inevitable. Not so if we go back to 2004
and look forward. Similarly we need one or a few such mavens for Ubuntu in
Bangladesh to identify the core problems, solve them then share it. Again I
don't know who those persons are and nor am I qualified to be one, but at
the least I can be a cheerleader for them and a proselytizer for their
knowledge. So, if you're such a maven or know of such mavens, please let's
get together to bring about this evolution in Bangladesh and kick Microsoft
to the curb!

Shumon
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd

Re: [Ubuntu-BD] FOSS & Ubuntu in Bangladesh

[Miah M. Hussainuzzaman]

So you think that, all those people who are using desktop linux are OS
experts! Really its joyful to think that at least one person thinks I am an
OS expert LOL.

I always prefer people who are able to take at least mild challenges.
Therefore, I like the way linux is, and don't want it to be like windows ---
specially the start menu of most linux DE is much more comfortable with
organized listing of softwares.

Looks can be altered, beyond your imagination. Even in windows people tend
to change the look using different themes. I have seen windows CD's in our
piracy empire with whole lot different looks - Tested some of them in a
laptop on virtualbox.

-Shamim
Mobile phone: +8801731 216 486
Homepage  ; ব্লগসমূহ: পরিবেশ
প্রকৌশলীর প্যাচাল  ; খিচুড়ী
ব্লগ;
সচলায়তন 
-- 
Ubuntu Bangladesh
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bd