Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
Il 16/07/2009 16:59, Matthew Paul Thomas ha scritto: > Agreed. Showing IMs in the messaging menu is necessary, but not sufficient. Just let me say again that the new chat window should be minimised and flashing, otherwise it may reveal public information in a bad moment. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote on 14/07/09 15:35: >... > To begin with, I was very happy with the indicator applet. But now > I've tested it with a few more users, and most doesn't notice it. That doesn't surprise me at all. (After all, part of the reason we got rid of the software updates icon was that it was not very noticable; and IMs are much more time-critical than software updates are.) > Actually, I feel that a new IM conversation should popup a chat window > directly, as long as you're set as Available in FUSA. >... Agreed. Showing IMs in the messaging menu is necessary, but not sufficient. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpfQFkACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqB3ACfbAs1UecpUF/aVrknWWb4Nku5 YY4AnRe70x5YV04Yn0n1ufvquNv89c/T =0AFj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
2009/7/3 Mark Shuttleworth : > > It is easy and fast to detect the messaging indicator (by design, so that > apps can check and behave accordingly). I agree that upstream will want to > think carefully about how to behave when the indicator isn't there, and we > should support them in that, but focus our design conversation on the > standard experience in Ubuntu which is the one with the messaging indicator. > > Mark To begin with, I was very happy with the indicator applet. But now I've tested it with a few more users, and most doesn't notice it. Actually, I feel that a new IM conversation should popup a chat window directly, as long as you're set as Available in FUSA. Or, if possible, it would be nice if users on a spesific group or groups would popup automatically, while all others would not. All messages should be indicated in the applet though. In an office environment, for instance, IM is great for asking questions while you're on the phone with a customer. I'd like something a bit more instant than something resembling a mail notification icon. That is; all messages should be indicated in the applet. Messages from users in the Boss-group, should popup immediately regardless of my status. Messages from users in the Colleagues-group should popup immediately as long as I'm set as Available, but for everyone else it should not popup. That would be nice! I think we do need some configuration options for this though. Peoples preferences may vary wildly. In any case, the icon for Indicator applet should be more visible when there is something to notice, but please don't use animations. There are too many of those as it is. Thanks, Jo-Erlend -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > 1) New messages cause empathy th flash the notification area. _This is > forbidden_, I do not know if it's written black-on-white somewhere but > we all know that we shouldn't flash the notification area, should the > world be falling. Update notifier can not do that. Why should empathy do > that? This must be fixed. > Agreed - new messages should optionally use notifications, and then put the green dot on the messaging indicator, not use the window-calling-for-attention mechanism. > 2) It does _not open a popup_ on new messages. I think opening a window should be optional - we have the messaging indicator for accessing the window if you want it. > There is also a problem: empathy does not handle IRC authentication > correctly. Pidgin has a plugin for that but why not just making > authentication work? Basically, it should hide from the sight of the > user the positive response from the server instead of annoying the user > with a message. > Server messages should also not show up in notifications. Mark -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > Yes, should be optional also IMHO. But also from comments elsewhere it > seems the development is concentrated on the existence of the indicator > applet. > > A sane default behaviour should be chosen also when the applet is not > there. In particular if "not flashing" is the default perhaps a > minimised, alerted pop-up for new messages should be the default too, > when indicator applet is not there (if this can be detected at all), > otherwise it will be difficult to notice new messages. YMMV of course. > It is easy and fast to detect the messaging indicator (by design, so that apps can check and behave accordingly). I agree that upstream will want to think carefully about how to behave when the indicator isn't there, and we should support them in that, but focus our design conversation on the standard experience in Ubuntu which is the one with the messaging indicator. Mark -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > On mar, 2009-06-30 at 12:45 -0500, Evan R. Murphy wrote: >> >> XChat flashes the notification area, though it can be disabled. Should >> this be addressed as well, or is it a nonissue because XChat isn't a >> candidate for default install? > > Of course I am not the one who can answer this, but contextually, are > there written guidelines including the "no flashing allowed" thing? If > so, that can be added to an eventual bug report to xchat. Yes, there are. Quoting from the GNOME HIG: """ * Icons should not usually appear animated. They may change to indicate a change of state, but should not do so when that change is occurs regularly rapidly. A battery status indicator would usually change slowly, therefore an icon is appropriate. By contrast, a load meter would always be changing, therefore it should use a flat image. * Any icon may blink to indicate an error in deference to showing an alert. For example, a printing-in-progress icon may blink when there is a paper jam, but not when the printer is on fire - that should show an alert. * Do not rely on blinking or animation as a means of alerting the user to any particular event. """ http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/desktop-notification-area.html.en Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
On mer, 2009-07-01 at 03:22 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > > 1) New messages cause empathy th flash the notification area. _This is > > forbidden_, I do not know if it's written black-on-white somewhere but > > we all know that we shouldn't flash the notification area, should the > > world be falling. Update notifier can not do that. Why should empathy do > > that? This must be fixed. > > > Agreed - new messages should optionally use notifications, and then > put the green dot on the messaging indicator, not use the > window-calling-for-attention mechanism. > > > 2) It does _not open a popup_ on new messages. > I think opening a window should be optional - we have the messaging > indicator for accessing the window if you want it. > > Yes, should be optional also IMHO. But also from comments elsewhere it seems the development is concentrated on the existence of the indicator applet. A sane default behaviour should be chosen also when the applet is not there. In particular if "not flashing" is the default perhaps a minimised, alerted pop-up for new messages should be the default too, when indicator applet is not there (if this can be detected at all), otherwise it will be difficult to notice new messages. YMMV of course. Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
On mar, 2009-06-30 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote: > On mar., 2009-06-30 at 20:11 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > > can be added to an eventual bug report to xchat. > > Speaking about bug reports did you open some about your issues, could > you give the numbers there? > > Sebastien Bacher > > The two important ones are already opened, I still have to report the one about IRC authentication. The one about blinking is here https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/empathy/+bug/287692 however it's a duplicate of https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/null/+bug/340180 which is clearly a different bug, however I don't know why it was marked as a duplicate so should it be unmarked as such? I see from the "fix released" status of the latter bug that empathy is supported by the indicator applet but it should work well even without it. The one about pop-ups is here https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/empathy/+bug/206547 bye Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
On mar., 2009-06-30 at 20:11 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > can be added to an eventual bug report to xchat. Speaking about bug reports did you open some about your issues, could you give the numbers there? Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
On mar, 2009-06-30 at 12:45 -0500, Evan R. Murphy wrote: > > > XChat flashes the notification area, though it can be disabled. Should > this be addressed as well, or is it a nonissue because XChat isn't a > candidate for default install? > > Of course I am not the one who can answer this, but contextually, are there written guidelines including the "no flashing allowed" thing? If so, that can be added to an eventual bug report to xchat. Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
2009/6/30 Vincenzo Ciancia : > [...] > 1) New messages cause empathy th flash the notification area. _This is > forbidden_, I do not know if it's written black-on-white somewhere but > we all know that we shouldn't flash the notification area, should the > world be falling. Update notifier can not do that. Why should empathy do > that? This must be fixed. > [...] XChat flashes the notification area, though it can be disabled. Should this be addressed as well, or is it a nonissue because XChat isn't a candidate for default install? Regards, Evan R. Murphy -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: R: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much discussed guidelines]
On gio, 2009-06-25 at 01:03 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > Oops - sorry! Vincenzo (Ciancia) would you like to follow up to the > ubuntu-desktop list? > > Vincenzo Ciaglia wrote: > > Hi mark. Here is vincenzo CIAGLIA, not Ciancia. > > > > Have a nice day, > > vincenzo > > > > > > > > Da: Mark Shuttleworth > > Inviato: martedì 23 giugno 2009 18.14 > > A: ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com; Vincenzo Ciaglia > > > > Oggetto: [Fwd: [Ayatana] Empathy is not in line with the much > > discussed guidelines] > > > > > > FYI, comments on the Ayatana list about Empathy. Vincenzo, these are > > good feedback, best put in the hands of the desktop team who are > > integrating Empathy. > > > > Mark > With the due delay and the due "sorry for that", thank you for considering the comments I made, and here is a summary: basically, apart from many crashers and missing features, of which I think the most important would be OTR, which is widely diffused also for windows and osx chat programs, there are two important problems in empathy, regarding usability and consistency with the rest of the desktop: 1) New messages cause empathy th flash the notification area. _This is forbidden_, I do not know if it's written black-on-white somewhere but we all know that we shouldn't flash the notification area, should the world be falling. Update notifier can not do that. Why should empathy do that? This must be fixed. 2) It does _not open a popup_ on new messages. When the infamous update-notifier popup was decided, it was argued that pidgin already did that. I am a pop-up hater and the IM client is the only exception. In fact, for IM a pop-up may be desired. This is because if I start the IM client chances are I *want* to be disturbed and if a contact calls me I *want* to interact immediately. So ehm, I know it should not come from me but can we have the popup back? I would prefer it to be minimised by default so that stupid jokes from friends will not pop-up in front of my boss. Of course the two current behaviours should be left as an opt-in for those who love it. There is also a problem: empathy does not handle IRC authentication correctly. Pidgin has a plugin for that but why not just making authentication work? Basically, it should hide from the sight of the user the positive response from the server instead of annoying the user with a message. Thank you for reading Vincenzo -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
