Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Iain Lane  wrote:
> Cool. Glad to see that community input is listened to. What does this mean
> for the store metaphor throughout the rest of the application?

I don't think there is a strong metaphor running through the
application. That would be inconsistent with the idea that the name
"store" had two meanings. The only thing I can see is the use of the
word "Departments" on the first screen, right? It's not wholly out of
place even with the change of name, but I guess it could be changed to
"Categories" or similar. I'm sure the project developers will take a
decision on that.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Iain Lane]

Greetings,

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:45:55AM +0100, Matthew East wrote:

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Iain Lane  wrote:

Cool. Glad to see that community input is listened to. What does this mean
for the store metaphor throughout the rest of the application?


I don't think there is a strong metaphor running through the
application. That would be inconsistent with the idea that the name
"store" had two meanings. The only thing I can see is the use of the
word "Departments" on the first screen, right? It's not wholly out of
place even with the change of name, but I guess it could be changed to
"Categories" or similar. I'm sure the project developers will take a
decision on that.


I remember seeing a "Shelf"* combo somewhere, but indeed I cannot find 
it now so it was probably excised already.


Regards,
Iain

* Or something similar


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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

Just to report progress on this discussion - sabdfl has decided to
adopt the name "Software Center".

The comments on this thread were very helpful, as were the forum [1]
and brainstorm [2] discussions/votes which showed pretty clear
opinions among the community.

If interested you can track the progress here:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-store/+bug/436648

[1] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1256242
[2] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/21362

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Iain Lane]

Hi,

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 09:41:47AM +0100, Matthew East wrote:

Just to report progress on this discussion - sabdfl has decided to
adopt the name "Software Center".

The comments on this thread were very helpful, as were the forum [1]
and brainstorm [2] discussions/votes which showed pretty clear
opinions among the community.

If interested you can track the progress here:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-store/+bug/436648

[1] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1256242
[2] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/21362


Cool. Glad to see that community input is listened to. What does this 
mean for the store metaphor throughout the rest of the application?


Iain


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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Scott Ritchie]

Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 04:14:44PM +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>> It would be cool if Debian and Ubuntu packagers could work together to
>> address this in the Packages.gz format.
> 
> I think this is unlikely to wind up in the Packages file in Debian over
> concerns about increasing the size of this index for all users with
> information not used by the package manager per se.  But I agree it would be
> nice to make this information available to the software store, perhaps via
> an adjunct metadata file on the servers.
> 

And that metadata file can then be generated automatically using the
machine-readable debian/copyright file spec we discussed last UDS.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 04:14:44PM +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> It would be cool if Debian and Ubuntu packagers could work together to
> address this in the Packages.gz format.

I think this is unlikely to wind up in the Packages file in Debian over
concerns about increasing the size of this index for all users with
information not used by the package manager per se.  But I agree it would be
nice to make this information available to the software store, perhaps via
an adjunct metadata file on the servers.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 10:27:34AM -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> > I really think that Libraries and Open Markets are great descriptors for
> > what is trying to be accomplished here...

> Can't wait until someone suggests "Software Pantry" ;-)

"The Widget Larder"

"The U-Pick Bit Farm"

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Alan Pope]

2009/9/1 Siegfried Gevatter :
> I have to add my voice in that I strongly dislike the name containing
> "Store", for the already echoed reasons. "Software Center" or even
> "Add/Remove..." are much better names, IMHO.
>

I too am not comfortable with "Software Center", partly because it
will in all likelyhood have non-software in it, like themes, but to a
UK person the word "Center" makes me flinch. I don't like "Store"
because it inclines me towards thinking it's a for-profit venture, and
I guess that's because the word 'store' is now tainted by all the
proprietary software repos out there that have previously been listed.

I'd be more inclined to like something that took the ethos of Ubuntu,
and the generic nature of what goes in the repository. Something
_like_ "Package Bazar". Given we already have a concept of 'packages'
in Ubuntu, I'd guess it's easily translatable. The term 'Bazar' has
historical and community influences which are overall positive.

I don't particularly _like_ "Package" but I think it's better than
"Software" and whilst the term 'package' needs to be explained before
many will 'get it' I don't think it's that much of a stretch for
people to think of 'packages' of software coming from the 'bazar'.

Just my 2p.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[ajmctaggart]

Obviously Store is not very popular, nor Center.  So what is it that we are
trying to accomplish with the title of this piece of Ubuntu?  Will it be
unique and solely on Ubuntu?  Or will this be installable on other distros
and therefore we want to keep the word "Ubuntu" out of the title?  Libs are
obviously not nearly as "cool" as actual applications, but will have to be
supported within this framework.  Are we trying to communicate a trading
post, or bazzar?  So what evokes this idea of a trading post or a bazaar in
a Ubuntu-esque fashion?

1) Marketplace
2) Creative Exchange
3) Open Market/ Open Exchange
4) Common Knowledge Market/ Exchange/Marketplace... (I don't want to start a
flame war on "Open," software or "Closed," software and the availability
from within this management tool)
5)  I don't have the wording, but what about the central idea behind a
Library?  You check out titles, you return them, etc...Very simiilar to what
this Synaptic replacement would allow...Anyone with some good ideas for a
"Library," wording?

Or are we going essentially for a "grass roots," kind of wording?

-Anthony

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Alan Pope  wrote:

> 2009/9/1 Siegfried Gevatter :
> > I have to add my voice in that I strongly dislike the name containing
> > "Store", for the already echoed reasons. "Software Center" or even
> > "Add/Remove..." are much better names, IMHO.
> >
>
> I too am not comfortable with "Software Center", partly because it
> will in all likelyhood have non-software in it, like themes, but to a
> UK person the word "Center" makes me flinch. I don't like "Store"
> because it inclines me towards thinking it's a for-profit venture, and
> I guess that's because the word 'store' is now tainted by all the
> proprietary software repos out there that have previously been listed.
>
> I'd be more inclined to like something that took the ethos of Ubuntu,
> and the generic nature of what goes in the repository. Something
> _like_ "Package Bazar". Given we already have a concept of 'packages'
> in Ubuntu, I'd guess it's easily translatable. The term 'Bazar' has
> historical and community influences which are overall positive.
>
> I don't particularly _like_ "Package" but I think it's better than
> "Software" and whilst the term 'package' needs to be explained before
> many will 'get it' I don't think it's that much of a stretch for
> people to think of 'packages' of software coming from the 'bazar'.
>
> Just my 2p.
>
> Cheers,
> Al.
>
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[ajmctaggart]

Bryce,

So sorry, and yes, English is my first language :)
I definitely agree Bazaar could be confused with "bzr,"...But it is a word
that seems to align well with Ubuntu and the goals, etc...maybe we just need
a solid synonym for a Bazaar...

It seems like we want to express these ideas in the name...
A place to EXCHANGE
A free MARKET for individuals to grab packages, libs, etc.
A LIBRARY in terms of order, documentation, cataloging, etc.
A CENTRAL location to handle all things related to SOFTWARE'S
INSTALLATION, UPDATES, DEPENDENCIES,etc

I really think that Libraries and Open Markets are great descriptors for
what is trying to be accomplished here...

-Anthony

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Bryce Harrington wrote:

> > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Alan Pope  wrote:
> > > _like_ "Package Bazar". Given we already have a concept of 'packages'
> >
> On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 08:42:41AM -0700, ajmctaggart wrote:
> > post, or bazzar?  So what evokes this idea of a trading post or a bazaar
> in
>
> Given that this word has been spelt three different ways in two posts,
> it appears to fail the "easy to spell" test.  ;-)
>
> Bryce
>
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 01:30:49PM -0300, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
> Also, people from IT would have no problem recognizing "store"
> as a place to store things. We talk about storage, use use variables
> to store values. So it's pretty clear (at least to me).

I have to disagree with this claim.  Even if "people from IT" were the
target audience, which they aren't, as a native speaker of American English
with a few years of background in IT, this meaning of "store" was not at
*all* comprehensible to me.  I had heard this proposed name almost a month
ago, but until it was explained in this very thread it didn't occur to me
that this was the meaning of "store" in this context.  A store to me is,
unequivocally, a place where you buy things.

And I have many colleagues who speak Commonwealth English and have years of
exposure to funny English ways of writing.  So if I didn't notice this
nuance, by and large American users aren't going to, either.

I have to say this is a much, much worse localization problem *for English*
than "center" vs. "centre", because it has a significant negative impact on
comprehension.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Dylan McCall wrote on 01/09/09 18:15:
>...
> I'm a bit concerned about using price to distinguish things here. The
> "price: free" thing is flawed, because it furthers the misconception
> that free software is only free in price, when in fact being free in
> price is quite irrelevant. Software with "price: $20" may still be
> free as in libré, which deserves credit! Is "get free software" going
> to display stuff with price == 0.00, or is it going to display
> software that is _free_?

It will display stuff that is free in the sense most computer users
understand it, i.e. free as in zero price. It would be cool if the Store
could also present whether a package had a free or proprietary license,
and if it did, I would specify that it should present free licenses as
"open source" -- not because I particularly like that term, but because
calling them "free" would be unacceptably confusing.

Currently, however, there is no way for the Store to tell whether an
arbitrary package in an arbitrary repository has a free or proprietary
license. debian/copyright isn't machine-readable, and isn't included in
Packages.gz anyway. We can assume that everything in Main (except
Firefox and Thunderbird) has a free license, and that everything on
archive.canonical.com has a proprietary license, but that's about it.

It would be cool if Debian and Ubuntu packagers could work together to
address this in the Packages.gz format.

> Will this thingy be connecting to Launchpad? It would be neat to get
> linked to code, bugs and answers directly from the store :)
>...

We plan to link it to Launchpad in the sense that Launchpad will store
user-submitted suggestions for improved descriptions, categories,
keywords, and screenshots/movies, as well as ratings and reviews (though
these might be submitted directly in the Store rather than in a Web
interface).

I don't see what we would gain from linking directly to Launchpad Code,
Bugs, and Answers, though. It would seem to make more sense to link to
Launchpad from the applications themselves, and launchpad-integration
already does this. And Ubuntu has too many bug reports, not too few.

Cheers
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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If anyone's interested in the original subject of this thread: The
Ubuntu Software Store 0.3.0 is now in Karmic.

Please try it out and report bugs.

ajmctaggart wrote on 01/09/09 16:42:
> 
> Obviously Store is not very popular, nor Center.  So what is it that
> we are trying to accomplish with the title of this piece of Ubuntu?
> Will it be unique and solely on Ubuntu?  Or will this be installable
> on other distros and therefore we want to keep the word "Ubuntu" out
> of the title?

The code is licensed under GPLv3+, so any other OS is free to use it.
However, the selection of software available in the Ubuntu repositories
is different from the selection of software available in the
repositories of other OSes -- more different than, for example, the
interface of a typical program in Ubuntu compared with the same program
in another OS.

Therefore, it's valuable to have "Ubuntu" in the name of this particular
utility. That way, questions like "Is program X available in the Ubuntu
Software Store?" have less ambiguous answers than they would if multiple
OSes were using the same utility with the same name.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le mardi 01 septembre 2009 à 10:15 -0700, Dylan McCall a écrit :

> I'm a bit concerned about using price to distinguish things here. The
> "price: free" thing is flawed, because it furthers the misconception
> that free software is only free in price, when in fact being free in
> price is quite irrelevant. Software with "price: $20" may still be free
> as in libré, which deserves credit! Is "get free software" going to
> display stuff with price == 0.00, or is it going to display software
> that is _free_?
Agreed. I'd suggest we use "Licence: free", and "Licence: proprietary -
Price: X €" when applicable (and also "Licence: shareware" if needed).
That way, we emphasize the difference between free software and others,
and we don't clutter our UI with ugly prices when they aren't relevant.

We could even remove the "Licence:" part, and display the kind of
software directly.


Hope this helps - and I'm all against the "Store" phrasing BTW :-p




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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Bryce Harrington]

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Alan Pope  wrote:
> > _like_ "Package Bazar". Given we already have a concept of 'packages'
>
On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 08:42:41AM -0700, ajmctaggart wrote:
> post, or bazzar?  So what evokes this idea of a trading post or a bazaar in

Given that this word has been spelt three different ways in two posts,
it appears to fail the "easy to spell" test.  ;-)

Bryce

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Dylan McCall]

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 21:19 +0530, mac_v wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 17:04 +0200, Siegfried Gevatter wrote:
> > I have to add my voice in that I strongly dislike the name containing
> > "Store", for the already echoed reasons. "Software Center" or even
> > "Add/Remove..." are much better names, IMHO.
> > 
> 
> How about "Software Zone" or "Ubuntu Zone"... ;)
> 
> I think we are underestimating the users by thinking that only name
> which includes a word "Store" will convey the right meaning!
> 
> A more innovative name can be used!
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> mac_v
> 
> 

I'm going to talk about branding, too, though I hate to join in that
seemingly endless thread. (At least nobody is on a tirade about the
possibility of software costing money to buy).

First of all, Software Store and Software Center both have a different
problem. It is trivial, but visible to geeks like myself. They carry a
'hissing' sound (s) thanks to the alliteration. In my culture, at
least, the sound is usually used in writing to emphasize a bad thing.
Granted, usually less than two words in such alliteration, but it's
visible if you sound it out.

I was thinking Software Exchange would maybe make sense as a name. I'm
thinking "ski swap" here. It sounds like a place where you are likely to
get some stuff for free and other stuff for money. I also like the idea
of "software market" or "software bazaar," since it adds something more
tactile to the mix.

As far as giving stuff back to an exchange, that absolutely would fit
nicely! We need a page somewhere easy to find (but out of the way) that
tells the user how to package stuff and get it hosted on the Software
Exchange / Store / whichever. (A nice packaging gui for art packages
goes here).

I'm a bit concerned about using price to distinguish things here. The
"price: free" thing is flawed, because it furthers the misconception
that free software is only free in price, when in fact being free in
price is quite irrelevant. Software with "price: $20" may still be free
as in libré, which deserves credit! Is "get free software" going to
display stuff with price == 0.00, or is it going to display software
that is _free_?

Will this thingy be connecting to Launchpad? It would be neat to get
linked to code, bugs and answers directly from the store :)


Thanks,
Dylan McCall


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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Bryce Harrington]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 09:19:27PM +0530, mac_v wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 17:04 +0200, Siegfried Gevatter wrote:
> > I have to add my voice in that I strongly dislike the name containing
> > "Store", for the already echoed reasons. "Software Center" or even
> > "Add/Remove..." are much better names, IMHO.
> > 
> 
> How about "Software Zone" or "Ubuntu Zone"... ;)
> 
> I think we are underestimating the users by thinking that only name
> which includes a word "Store" will convey the right meaning!
> 
> A more innovative name can be used!

I hate to step into this tussle, but is this thread bike-shed painting a
bit much?

I've no idea if the name even can be changed, but if it can input is
going to be better listened to from people with hammers and chisels than
pitchforks and torches.

Bryce


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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Bryce Harrington]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 10:16:20AM -0700, ajmctaggart wrote:
> I definitely agree Bazaar could be confused with "bzr,"...But it is a word
> that seems to align well with Ubuntu and the goals, etc...maybe we just need

It does align nicely, although I think it'd be a strange name for anyone
not familiar with CatB.  Also, it seem in terms of meaning, isn't a
bazaar still "a place to buy things"?

> It seems like we want to express these ideas in the name...
> A place to EXCHANGE
> A free MARKET for individuals to grab packages, libs, etc.
> A LIBRARY in terms of order, documentation, cataloging, etc.
> A CENTRAL location to handle all things related to SOFTWARE'S
> INSTALLATION, UPDATES, DEPENDENCIES,etc
> 
> I really think that Libraries and Open Markets are great descriptors for
> what is trying to be accomplished here...

Can't wait until someone suggests "Software Pantry" ;-)

Bryce

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[mac_v]

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 17:04 +0200, Siegfried Gevatter wrote:
> I have to add my voice in that I strongly dislike the name containing
> "Store", for the already echoed reasons. "Software Center" or even
> "Add/Remove..." are much better names, IMHO.
> 

How about "Software Zone" or "Ubuntu Zone"... ;)

I think we are underestimating the users by thinking that only name
which includes a word "Store" will convey the right meaning!

A more innovative name can be used!

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Scott James Remnant]

On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 11:07 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> The nifty thing about "store" is that it has those two meanings -- shop,
> and repository 
> 
I don't agree.

"Store" primarily means a place where you *purchase* things.

The secondary meaning of a repository implies that it's somewhere that
*you* can store software you have, not somewhere that you obtain new
software (for free).

Scott
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Greg Grossmeier wrote on 28/08/09 14:56:
>...
> Just double checking that I understand this part correctly: we're
> going to have a line in every single software package description in
> all of the Ubuntu repositories that says "Price: Free"?
> 
> EDIT: Just confirmed this with mpt on #ubuntu-devel and he pointed me
> to this bug: https://launchpad.net/bugs/419295 (thanks, mpt)
> 
> From a librarian's point of view (you've solicited our help, and I
> have the degree) that seems like an awful waste of space for something
> that will only being "Price: !Free" 0.001% of the time.

How do you know that? In the iPhone App Store, for example, 77 % of the
applications have a non-zero price.

>Be explicit when 
> needed, don't clutter the user's view with information that
> practically never changes. I would suggest _only_ showing Price
> information when there _is_ a price.

As I explained in the bug report, that "would cause a Simon-says
problem, where the way to verify that something was free would be to
check that there was no 'Price:' row anywhere on the page."

> My point:
> 
> Explicitly saying "Free" to counteract the fact that it is called a 
> "Store" seems like a lot of work to fix a problem that is avoidable by 
> calling it something other than a Store.
>...

I would have specified that that line should be there regardless of what
the program was called.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Otto Kekäläinen]

My vote is for "Software Center".


Pros and cons:

+ "Software" is more general in meaning (more than just apps) and it
seems to be the the most used term and already the term chosen at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore. 

+ Some lawers could also claim that "AppCenter" is too close to Apple's
"AppStore" and thus infridge on their trademark.

+ "Center" indicates the place of control and tells the user that "this 
is the place to do your software operations". I think this is exactly
what the tools is about.

+ "Center" and does not hint that the user needs to buy the stuff like
"Store" does. However, "Center" can also include items that require
payment, since Center has a broad meaning.

+ "Center" is easy to translate. At least I can't think of any
translation to "Store" in Finnish that could also mean "Warehouse". Also
most of the world population who do not speak English as their primary
langauge associate "Store" with a shop and not as a place where
something is stored. If you want to rename something into store, then
rename repositories into stores.

- "Center" should be "Centre" in UK English, but I think this is such a
small issue that you shouldn't bother. If some user is really annoyed by
this, he/she can always switch to the UK English translated interface.



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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Loïc Martin wrote on 28/08/09 12:20:
>...
> We all seem to be copying the App Store from Apple (nothing wrong with
> that), but perhaps the part we should change isn't so much the first
> part in "App Store", but the second one? After all, both provide the
> same goods (Apps), while we'll be trying to differentiate on the
> experience (Store vs a different word).
>...

In the short term, version 2.0 of the Store will provide thousands of
software packages that are not applications, such as fonts, themes,
codecs, and screen savers.

In the long term, I am pretty sure that in twenty years, "software" will
still exist and be publicly relevant. I am much less certain that
"applications" will.

Cheers
- --
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

(adding back ubuntu-desktop@)

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Stephan Hermann wrote:
> The reason why anybodies blood start to boil right now, when they hear
> "Ubuntu Software {Store,Shop,Market,Wholesale,Supermarket,etc.pp}" is
> that Canonical right now is not making a big deal out of it. They tell
> you "We will go and we will sell commercial software with this
> tool"..that's more then transparent, and that's more then other
> "sponsoring companies" are telling their community.

For the record, that's not the reason behind my objection. Actually, I
haven't seen *anywhere* on this entire thread any suggestion that this
application shouldn't make commercial software available.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Greg Grossmeier wrote:
> I think Ubuntu has an opportunity here to create a new brand name for a
> software repository that from the beginning implies Free to the user[0],
> instead of the usual commercial-sounding options from other companies
> (AppStore, Android Market, Palm Software Store, etc).

Very well put, Greg.

>> Unfortunately the naming was one thing that had to be done within
>> Canonical, for boring legal reasons.
>
> As someone who also works with lawyers on a daily/weekly basis, I know
> how hard it is to change (some of) their minds after the fact. I
> understand if Canonical is unable to make this change at this time.

I think we need to get this in proper perspective. Everyone here can
agree that Ubuntu as a project and Canonical as a company should not
take actions which are contrary to law. The Ubuntu project benefits
from the fact that Canonical takes care of legal aspects for us, just
as it takes care of a lot of other things in the community. However, I
don't think that legal considerations can or should stop the project
from discussing and adopting a valid and lawful name which fits the
program best. The program hasn't yet been released, so I can't think
of any legal impediment to changing its name while it is still in
beta.

I think the way this should have worked (and can still work) was that
the project could have discussed the name openly and settled on a name
or number of names which are acceptable. Then the lawyers can advise
whether the name(s) chosen are legal, or not. Ideally they would
participate in the discussion directly. Obviously if, having already
been through the process internally, Canonical can tell us which names
are off-limits legally, then that will help to exclude certain
options.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Matthew East wrote on 28/08/09 11:44:
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas
>>  wrote:
>>...
>>> "Center" was unfortunately off-limits because it lacks cross-Atlantic
>>> compatibility, i.e. it differs in US English vs. British English
>>> spelling, and foreign spelling irritates people. ("Catalog" had the same
>>> problem.)
>>
>> I don't get that at all. "Center" appears elsewhere in our desktop
>> ("Help Center")
>
> As I suggested two years ago, "Ubuntu Help" would be quite enough for
> that particul

You're probably right about that, but I don't think the use of
American English was part of your reasoning there. The reasoning is
about removing redundancy.

>>                 and it is simply translated by the ubuntu-l10n-en-gb
>> team to read "Centre" for those users who use that language.
>
> While it is obvious to, for example, someone fluent only in Italian that
> they should switch Ubuntu into Italian, it is not so obvious to someone
> who is fluent only in UK English (or who is setting up a computer for
> someone fluent only in UK English) that they should switch Ubuntu into
> UK English.
>
> The result is that some proportion of UK English speakers using Ubuntu
> will inevitably use it in the US English locale. I am not suggesting
> that words with different US English vs. UK English spellings should be
> verboten in Ubuntu interface text. But where can easily avoid those
> words in prominent places, like names of programs, we might as well.

For me, what you are saying boils down to that there are a small
proportion of users using the wrong locale, and a small portion of
those will feel irritated by the fact that the wrong locale they are
using contains foreign spellings. Even if that's true, I don't think
that's a good reason for choosing a name for the app which carries
commercial undertones and seems likely to confuse a larger proportion
of people.

But anyway, I don't think it's really true, because as far as I'm
aware people get the right locale when they install Ubuntu. I think if
people are getting the wrong locale, that's a usability issue or just
a straight bug that can be fixed. If a user gets the wrong locale from
their own choice or a mistake by a system administrator, I don't think
it's fair of them to blame Ubuntu just because the desktop uses that
locale! The proportion of those who do will be very small: let's face
it, us English speakers around the world understand each other fine
and understand and accept each other's differences.

We use American English consistently throughout applications and
documentation. That's why our en-gb translation team exists, and it
does a great job because I've never seen American English in my
desktop. Not that I'd mind...

>> As Przemysław pointed out, "Store" is a hell of a lot more difficult
>> to translate.
>>...
>
> I'm not a translator, but it's pretty obvious to me that you'll rarely
> be able to capture every nuance of a brand name when translating it.
> Instead, concentrate on choosing a name that is compelling in that
> particular language. (And try not to infringe any trade marks.)

Yes, one should do that. My point is mainly that this isn't a
compelling name. In this case I think the difficulty in translating
the name is in fact borne out of the fact that it's not a good name in
the first place. The secondary point is that if you have a choice, you
can also consider how the name is likely to work in other languages
and weigh that up together with other considerations.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Matthew East wrote on 28/08/09 11:44:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas
>  wrote:
>...
>> "Center" was unfortunately off-limits because it lacks cross-Atlantic
>> compatibility, i.e. it differs in US English vs. British English
>> spelling, and foreign spelling irritates people. ("Catalog" had the same
>> problem.)
> 
> I don't get that at all. "Center" appears elsewhere in our desktop
> ("Help Center")

As I suggested two years ago, "Ubuntu Help" would be quite enough for
that particular case. 

> and it is simply translated by the ubuntu-l10n-en-gb
> team to read "Centre" for those users who use that language.

While it is obvious to, for example, someone fluent only in Italian that
they should switch Ubuntu into Italian, it is not so obvious to someone
who is fluent only in UK English (or who is setting up a computer for
someone fluent only in UK English) that they should switch Ubuntu into
UK English.

The result is that some proportion of UK English speakers using Ubuntu
will inevitably use it in the US English locale. I am not suggesting
that words with different US English vs. UK English spellings should be
verboten in Ubuntu interface text. But where can easily avoid those
words in prominent places, like names of programs, we might as well.

> As Przemysław pointed out, "Store" is a hell of a lot more difficult
> to translate.
>...

I'm not a translator, but it's pretty obvious to me that you'll rarely
be able to capture every nuance of a brand name when translating it.
Instead, concentrate on choosing a name that is compelling in that
particular language. (And try not to infringe any trade marks.)

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

(Adding ubuntu-desktop back to cc)

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Friday 28 August 2009 6:44:30 am Matthew East wrote:
>> I saw that, but the problem is that people will not open the app in
>> the first place. I saw the name "Ubuntu Software Store" before I saw
>> your email explaining what it was, and it didn't occur to me that it
>> could be anything other than a shop (probably a website) for buying
>> programs.
>>
>> The comments on this thread so far have been unanimous about this...
>
> OK, I'll break it.  I didn't assume the Ubuntu App Store would be all for-pay
> stuff, since well...the iTunes App Store isn't.  There are tons of free
> (gratis) programs for iPhones available in there.  So why should this App
> Store be any different?

Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and a snap
survey of how different people react to this title is not unhelpful, I
think. But I'd be disturbed if the conception of "store" in the
majority of our users' understanding is affected by a naming scheme
handed down by iTunes rather than plain English. It's also probably
the case that the iTunes App Store does have much more commercially
orientated goals than the Ubuntu Software Store. I haven't got an
iPhone, so I hadn't come across this name. I do have a blackberry
though. The blackberry equivalent is called "BlackBerry App World".

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Tomasz Dominikowski]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Matthew East wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Matthew East wrote on 27/08/09 20:20:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Przemek
>>> Kulczycki wrote:

 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Matthew East wrote:
>>>...
>> Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
>>>...
> Doesn't "store" imply that the user will be paying for the software?
> I really liked "center".
>>
>> "Center" was unfortunately off-limits because it lacks cross-Atlantic
>> compatibility, i.e. it differs in US English vs. British English
>> spelling, and foreign spelling irritates people. ("Catalog" had the same
>> problem.)
>
> I don't get that at all. "Center" appears elsewhere in our desktop
> ("Help Center") and it is simply translated by the ubuntu-l10n-en-gb
> team to read "Centre" for those users who use that language.
>
> As Przemysław pointed out, "Store" is a hell of a lot more difficult
> to translate.

As the admin and owner of the Polish L10n Team, I can say I'm
disappointed by this naming scheme as well. There is no double-meaning
word in Polish that would suit this application. We'd either have to
choose between the "warehouse" meaning, or the "shop" meaning, neither
of which work well. We will fall back on the "center" name instead, as
this is the only name that fits, is presentable and doesn't have any
negative connotations.

And arguing that that "center" and "catalog" are not l10n friendly,
while they can easily be adjusted to different locales, is silly.

Regards,
Tomasz Dominikowski



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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[mac_v]

On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 11:07 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> > 
> > I can see from the spec (and LP answer 81103) that it will be possible
> > to purchase software from this app in the future, but it will also be
> > possible to get software for free there, and for that reason I think a
> > neutral name that fits both is preferable.
> 
> The nifty thing about "store" is that it has those two meanings -- shop,
> and repository -- and both of them are appropriate. But you're right
> that the shop meaning is more prominent. So as long as the Store doesn't
> yet contain paid software, we're counteracting that by using the section
> heading "Get Free Software" in the navigation, and "Price: Free" in the
> screens for individual applications.

> Cheers
> - --
> Matthew Paul Thomas

Why is there a need to specify "Price: Free " in every software
description when the user is already in a "Get Free Software" Category?
This seems an overkill.

Adding a new "Get Paid Software" category in the future and listing the
price in only those paid software's description should be sufficient.

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Matthew East wrote on 27/08/09 20:20:
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Przemek
>> Kulczycki wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Matthew East wrote:
>>...
> Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
>>...
 Doesn't "store" imply that the user will be paying for the software?
 I really liked "center".
>
> "Center" was unfortunately off-limits because it lacks cross-Atlantic
> compatibility, i.e. it differs in US English vs. British English
> spelling, and foreign spelling irritates people. ("Catalog" had the same
> problem.)

I don't get that at all. "Center" appears elsewhere in our desktop
("Help Center") and it is simply translated by the ubuntu-l10n-en-gb
team to read "Centre" for those users who use that language.

As Przemysław pointed out, "Store" is a hell of a lot more difficult
to translate.

> The nifty thing about "store" is that it has those two meanings -- shop,
> and repository -- and both of them are appropriate. But you're right
> that the shop meaning is more prominent. So as long as the Store doesn't
> yet contain paid software, we're counteracting that by using the section
> heading "Get Free Software" in the navigation, and "Price: Free" in the
> screens for individual applications.

I saw that, but the problem is that people will not open the app in
the first place. I saw the name "Ubuntu Software Store" before I saw
your email explaining what it was, and it didn't occur to me that it
could be anything other than a shop (probably a website) for buying
programs.

The comments on this thread so far have been unanimous about this...

> Unfortunately the naming was one thing that had to be done within
> Canonical, for boring legal reasons.

I assume that's to do with trademarks. But surely it's not too late to
make the right decision about this. Is "Ubuntu Software Center"
legally prohibited?

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Matthew East wrote on 27/08/09 20:20:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Przemek
> Kulczycki wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Matthew East wrote:
>...
 Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
>...
>>> Doesn't "store" imply that the user will be paying for the software?
>>> I really liked "center".

"Center" was unfortunately off-limits because it lacks cross-Atlantic
compatibility, i.e. it differs in US English vs. British English
spelling, and foreign spelling irritates people. ("Catalog" had the same
problem.)

>> Only for the Americans I guess :)
>> Those who learned British English will understand store as a
>> warehouse/stock.
> 
> Well, I don't know any free warehouses either... But I'm British, and
> my primary understanding of a "store" is an online or physical place
> where I can purchase things. Anyhow, Ubuntu's primary locale is US
> English, so I think a discussion of the name should proceed on the
> basis that the name should work in US English.
> 
> I can see from the spec (and LP answer 81103) that it will be possible
> to purchase software from this app in the future, but it will also be
> possible to get software for free there, and for that reason I think a
> neutral name that fits both is preferable.

The nifty thing about "store" is that it has those two meanings -- shop,
and repository -- and both of them are appropriate. But you're right
that the shop meaning is more prominent. So as long as the Store doesn't
yet contain paid software, we're counteracting that by using the section
heading "Get Free Software" in the navigation, and "Price: Free" in the
screens for individual applications.

Unfortunately the naming was one thing that had to be done within
Canonical, for boring legal reasons.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Matthew East wrote on 28/08/09 07:47:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Danny
> Piccirillo wrote:
>> 
>> So does this mean no packagekit? I knew plans for it in karmic had been
>> dropped but this appcenter will replace Add/Remove instead? Would it be
>> possible and/or worth it to base it on packagekit?
> 
> Danny, as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore:
> 
> "The implementation is based on Add/Remove Applications
> (gnome-app-install), but may use PackageKit for some components."

Actually, that's been out of date for a couple of days: the Store no
longer includes Add/Remove Applications code. I've just fixed it: "The
Store is implemented using Python, GTK, and Aptdaemon, and may use
PackageKit for some components."

Cheers
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Danny
Piccirillo wrote:
> So does this mean no packagekit? I knew plans for it in karmic had been
> dropped but this appcenter will replace Add/Remove instead? Would it be
> possible and/or worth it to base it on packagekit?

Danny, as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore:

"The implementation is based on Add/Remove Applications
(gnome-app-install), but may use PackageKit for some components."

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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Danny Piccirillo]

So does this mean no packagekit? I knew plans for it in karmic had been
dropped but this appcenter will replace Add/Remove instead? Would it be
possible and/or worth it to base it on packagekit?

Sent from my G1 Android Phone.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:43, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi everyone
>
> At the Ubuntu Developer Summit in May, we discussed AppCenter -- the
> codename for a new interface for finding, installing, and removing
> software in Ubuntu.
>
> Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
> 
> And it has a package in Ubuntu Karmic: software-store.
> 
>
> The objective for Ubuntu 9.10 is for the Store to replace Add/Remove
> Applications. But there is plenty of work left to do to reach that goal.
> We're looking for help from artists, copy-editors, GTK/Clutter hackers,
> interface designers, librarians (!), packagers, Python programmers, and
> testers. We welcome useful contributions from anyone, regardless of age,
> gender, or experience.
>
> For details of how you can help, see the specification:
> 
>
> Thanks!
>
> - --
> Matthew Paul Thomas, lead designer
> Michael Vogt, lead engineer
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Przemek
Kulczycki wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Matthew East wrote:
>> Hi Matthew,
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
>> wrote:
>>> Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
>>> 
>>> And it has a package in Ubuntu Karmic: software-store.
>>> 
>>
>> Looking forward to trying this. I had a quick browse through the wiki
>> page but couldn't find any discussion about the name, so here goes.
>>
>> Doesn't "store" imply that the user will be paying for the software? I
>> really liked "center".
>
> Only for the Americans I guess :)
> Those who learned British English will understand store as a warehouse/stock.

Well, I don't know any free warehouses either... But I'm British, and
my primary understanding of a "store" is an online or physical place
where I can purchase things. Anyhow, Ubuntu's primary locale is US
English, so I think a discussion of the name should proceed on the
basis that the name should work in US English.

I can see from the spec (and LP answer 81103) that it will be possible
to purchase software from this app in the future, but it will also be
possible to get software for free there, and for that reason I think a
neutral name that fits both is preferable.

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Matthew East
http://www.mdke.org
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Re: Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew East]

Hi Matthew,

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.
> 
> And it has a package in Ubuntu Karmic: software-store.
> 

Looking forward to trying this. I had a quick browse through the wiki
page but couldn't find any discussion about the name, so here goes.

Doesn't "store" imply that the user will be paying for the software? I
really liked "center".

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Ubuntu Software Store: What it does, and how you can help

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Hi everyone

At the Ubuntu Developer Summit in May, we discussed AppCenter -- the
codename for a new interface for finding, installing, and removing
software in Ubuntu.

Now, AppCenter has a brand name: the Ubuntu Software Store.

And it has a package in Ubuntu Karmic: software-store.


The objective for Ubuntu 9.10 is for the Store to replace Add/Remove
Applications. But there is plenty of work left to do to reach that goal.
We're looking for help from artists, copy-editors, GTK/Clutter hackers,
interface designers, librarians (!), packagers, Python programmers, and
testers. We welcome useful contributions from anyone, regardless of age,
gender, or experience.

For details of how you can help, see the specification:


Thanks!

- --
Matthew Paul Thomas, lead designer
Michael Vogt, lead engineer
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