Re: finding out if network-manager has published online/offline status?
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 13:00 -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 07:13 -0500, Matt Price wrote: > > hi, > > > > i just reported a bug on evolution > > (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/293046) that, > > on reflection, i think might actually be a network-manager bug. The > > symptom in evolution is a hang while pinging imap server, which occurs > > on laptop wakeup. thinking about it, probably the problem isthat > > network-manager isn't reporting the online status accurately, or there's > > a reace condition between evolution's pinging and network-manager's > > reporting. (though even so it seems to me that the ping process > > shouldn't cause evolution to hang the way it does!). Anyway, i'm > > wondering if i can somehow monitor network-manager to see if it's > > reporting its offline status in the way that evolutin expects it to. > > Thanks for the help! > > I think this would be a duplicate of bug 271894, a bug I filed regarding > Evolution being unable to filter messages and hanging after suspend. > Strace makes it look like it's some sort of socket error, but I can't > quite figure out how to give the requested backtrace when it doesn't > crash and doesn't spit out *any* output at all after I type "continue". > i'm having the same backtrace problem... matt -- Matt Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Inclusion of a mobile management tool
I definitely agree with Martin, I just switched phone. Before I used wammu, and I've found it really good, especially when my phone started to really break down, and it was hard to write even a simple SMS, as in Wammu you can write it, BUT Wammu exports and imports only his own formats, and even though you can convert its backup to vcal/vcard it's really hard to find this info, and my new phone isn't supported by wammu. I have the feeling that opensync and its better integration is the right approach, unfortunately I have found opensyc to be very unreliable for the moment, or at least the plugins I wanted to use (like Gcal and SynCe for example). On the other hand it would be really nice to have proper mobil tools to synchronize (and backup) calendar, mail and contacts. V 2008/11/3 Martin Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 22:56 +0530, Chandru wrote: > > One very common use of a mobile management app is backup of contacts. > > Apart from that if need be (not exactly too common), back up text > > messages. > > > > But beyond that Wammu provides capabilities to manage mobile's > > calendar, To Do, etc, etc which can come handy at times. > > Then it's an app for accessing the data stored on a phone? Yes this > should be integrated further into other systems. A library for example > like libgpod so that any program could access the data. > > Then things like opensync could take care of the job without any > specific programs for mobile phones. (which mobile phones? the iphone? > the ROM blackberries? Nokia symbian phones?) > > Regards, Martin > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Viktor Nagy - http://viktornagy.com PhD student Toulouse School of Economics -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Inclusion of a mobile management tool
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 22:56 +0530, Chandru wrote: > One very common use of a mobile management app is backup of contacts. > Apart from that if need be (not exactly too common), back up text > messages. > > But beyond that Wammu provides capabilities to manage mobile's > calendar, To Do, etc, etc which can come handy at times. Then it's an app for accessing the data stored on a phone? Yes this should be integrated further into other systems. A library for example like libgpod so that any program could access the data. Then things like opensync could take care of the job without any specific programs for mobile phones. (which mobile phones? the iphone? the ROM blackberries? Nokia symbian phones?) Regards, Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: finding out if network-manager has published online/offline status?
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 07:13 -0500, Matt Price wrote: > hi, > > i just reported a bug on evolution > (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/293046) that, > on reflection, i think might actually be a network-manager bug. The > symptom in evolution is a hang while pinging imap server, which occurs > on laptop wakeup. thinking about it, probably the problem isthat > network-manager isn't reporting the online status accurately, or there's > a reace condition between evolution's pinging and network-manager's > reporting. (though even so it seems to me that the ping process > shouldn't cause evolution to hang the way it does!). Anyway, i'm > wondering if i can somehow monitor network-manager to see if it's > reporting its offline status in the way that evolutin expects it to. > Thanks for the help! I think this would be a duplicate of bug 271894, a bug I filed regarding Evolution being unable to filter messages and hanging after suspend. Strace makes it look like it's some sort of socket error, but I can't quite figure out how to give the requested backtrace when it doesn't crash and doesn't spit out *any* output at all after I type "continue". -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 02:21 -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > I thought cruft was used interchangeably with crud when talking about > real-life things. I thought it is a known word too, but US-natives called me to ask what I was talking about. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Inclusion of a mobile management tool
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 22:29 +0530, Chandru wrote: > Hi, > > Now that almost everyone has got a mobile and most of them connect it > to their PCs, wouldn't it be a good idea to include a decent mobile > management tool like Wammu (there may me better ones but this is what > I use)? Even if it is not going to be included in the Live CD due to > lack of CD space, at least it could be moved to main so that regular > updates are made available. This reminds me of something I've been wondering about. Why is Palm Pilot software included by default? They're not so terribly common that it's really necessary for your everyday user, and installation after-the-fact is easy enough. Something more generic (and thus applicable to more people) would make quite a bit more sense, in my opinion. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Inclusion of a mobile management tool
One very common use of a mobile management app is backup of contacts. Apart from that if need be (not exactly too common), back up text messages. But beyond that Wammu provides capabilities to manage mobile's calendar, To Do, etc, etc which can come handy at times. As I stated it need not be on CD, but moving at least one mobile management to "main" (please point if it is already there) will provide regular updates for a pretty useful application. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Martin Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What does the mobile manager do? what does is manage? > > There has been a lot of discussion and debate about Hardware Management > vs Device Capability. Should the manager provide functional access then > it might work via hal capabilities, if it's configuration or some other > kind of hardware management then an app might be useful. > > Regards, Martin > > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 22:29 +0530, Chandru wrote: > > Wammu > > -- Chandra Sekar.S Blog: http://tuxychandru.blogspot.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Inclusion of a mobile management tool
What does the mobile manager do? what does is manage? There has been a lot of discussion and debate about Hardware Management vs Device Capability. Should the manager provide functional access then it might work via hal capabilities, if it's configuration or some other kind of hardware management then an app might be useful. Regards, Martin On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 22:29 +0530, Chandru wrote: > Wammu -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Inclusion of a mobile management tool
Hi, Now that almost everyone has got a mobile and most of them connect it to their PCs, wouldn't it be a good idea to include a decent mobile management tool like Wammu (there may me better ones but this is what I use)? Even if it is not going to be included in the Live CD due to lack of CD space, at least it could be moved to main so that regular updates are made available. Now since Wammu is not in main, Intrepid ships with 0.27 which was released in May, though 0.28 (with quite a few bug fixes) were released in June. Note: If there already is a Gnome mobile manager in main please let me know. -- Chandra Sekar.S Blog: http://tuxychandru.blogspot.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
ma, 2008-11-03 kello 18:01 +0200, Lars Wirzenius kirjoitti: > I follow the legal advice I got, from a real lawyer, and that was clear: > change the name. Matthew, I'm sorry I chose those words. I didn't no mean to imply you are not a real lawyer. I did not know you were a lawyer at all. Here is what I should have written instead: "I follow the legal advice I got, from a lawyer working for Canonical and answering a direct question on how to handle this case, and the answer was clear: change the name." Further: I have no knowledge or opinion on whether "System Cleaner" should be an allowed trademark, or whether it would survive a court case. I wish to avoid having to involve any further lawyers in this, so I will name the program in a clearly non-conflicting way. I am not attached to the name in any way, I'd rather concentrate on improving the program. As an aside: choosing names for new programs is starting to be a real hassle. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
ma, 2008-11-03 kello 13:35 +, Matthew East kirjoitti:
> Heh, you took me a bit too literally there. I meant that the word
> should be removed from the application completely, but of course it
> would need to be replacd with another title. To be honest, I find the
> word "Remover" a bit awkward, as well. "Removal" would work better, I
> think.
A "something removal tool" might work, but I think I prefer the
"something remover" form. (I'm not so happy about "remover", since the
program does other things than just remove stuff.)
> I've searched through my list email to try to find the previous
> discussion about why the name needed to be changed, and what
> alternative names could be used, but I couldn't find it. I guess it
> was during a meeting.
It happend on IRC, actually, and unfortunately seems to have happened in
private, at a time when the reaction to the letter suggesting a
trademark clash was still being discussed with lawyers. That's why it
wasn't discussed in public. Then, when lawyers were done, and it was
time to upload the package with a new name, there was no time to have a
discussion, since the release was about to happen.
> "System Cleaner" is the obvious name of course. I find it incredibly
> dubious that a trademark could validly be enforced over a name which
> is made up of generic and descriptive terms.
I follow the legal advice I got, from a real lawyer, and that was clear:
change the name.
> Even if there is a valid trademark there, I'm sure an alternative name
> can be found with a bit of brainstorming. Just to kick things off:
>
> System Cleanup, Cleanup Your System, System Restore (is that a
> trademark too?), System Cleanser, System Janitor,
> {Unwanted/Unused/Obsolete} {Program/File} {Removal/Cleanup}
I'd prefer to avoid both the wors "system" and "clean", and derivations
just to be on the safe side. (This is my own conclusion, not based on
legal advice, but hey: why look for trouble?)
Janitor sounds like a good word. Computer Janitor gets a few thousand
hits on Google, so that's probably a bad combination. It'd be cool to
find something that gets at most a few hits.
(On my personal projects, I tend to resort to names based on Finnish.
This is almost certainly a bad idea for this program.)
> Some of those are pretty bad as well, but hopefully would be an
> improvement. My favourite would be "Obsolete File Removal".
Unfortunately, since the program does other things than just remove
files, and will do more of those things in the future, I don't think
that's a good name.
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unaccountable beeping
Summary: nothing should make my computer beep without leaving a log. Since about a week ago, my computer has started beeping occasionally. I have no idea why, it doesn't seem to correspond with power or network events or with any application that is running. It is annoying and practically impossible to trace (I have replaced /usr/bin/beep with a wrapper that logs ps auxwwf but whatever it is, it's not using /usr/bin/beep, maybe there's some X hackery I could do but I don't know what it is and I shouldn't have to). It seems to me that anything that runs in the background and wants to make a sound should do it through some central facility and provide a text message so that a - users can find out what is happening and why b - hearing impaired people or people who just don't like random beeps can have them appear as visual notifications Given that http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/sound/beep seems to be installed by default (at least I didn't select it myself) should it be given a few more features (logging, supplying a reason, looking up the ps tree to find out who is beeping). Then declare that all beeping must be done via this command. Of course that might involve a lot of changes to tools which beep, maybe there's a smarter way. I don't really care how, as long as beepers are held accountable, F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:27:29 + "Justin M. Wray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Maybe this is my misinterpertation of the purpose of the application, > but I am unsure that a whitelist/blacklist would be the right > solution. > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the tool removes apps that are not in > the repository (for whatever reason; manually install, obsolete, > etc). Why would we white list such apps? If such a use case exists > for the package to stay on the system (example - manually installed > apps) should the app not exist in the repository? > > On that note, maybe we can obtain statistics (with permission) of > debs that are installed manually and do not exist in the repository. > This data can then be used to prioritize applications that need > packaging or upgrading. We can base priority on the number of > instances we see...etc. > > Thought? > > Thanks, > Justin M. Wray > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -Original Message- > From: "(``-_-´´) -- Fernando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:34:24 > To: > Subject: Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk > > I have apps that I installed using a .deb file, but never added the repository I downloaded them from to sources.list. I don´t believe that the fact that the app has been installed is enough to assume that it is listed in the repositories. There are many apps available which official repositories do not list, and the user can install on their own. That they elect not to add the repository to the list should not be reason to say the app is not needed by the user. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
Olá Forest e a todos. On Monday 03 November 2008 13:49:45 Forest Bond wrote: > You may want to bring your questions to the bzr mailing list. I know there > are > other people doing exactly what you are doing. bzr is highly configurable. > The > bzr devs are also very helpful. It is likely that bzr can do what you want, > but > that some amount of configuration is necessary to get good performance given > what you are versioning. > > Thanks, > Forest Thanks. I'll redirect there... I just hope I can also get some devs working on some ideas for jaunty. UDS is comming. where is the list of topics to discuss? -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
how to exclude --.gvfs from disturbing stuff
Hi all, Please look at this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/225361 . Now I'm looking for a way so I can use sudo to do my stuff without it coming in every time. For e.g. I'm having something like this :- Pass 1 of 10, 1/25 (4%): 502.1 frags/MB /usr/sbin/popularity-contest lsof: WARNING: can't stat() fuse.gvfs-fuse-daemon file system /home/shirish/.gvfs Output information may be incomplete. Fully defragmented! This output is from a tool called pyfrag which was made by John Dong quite sometime ago. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=169551 Although using that tool may or may not be good, but getting that sort of an output certainly isn't helpful. Can I do something about it. Specifically lsof: WARNING: can't stat() fuse.gvfs-fuse-daemon file system /home/shirish/.gvfs Output information may be incomplete. -- Regards, Shirish Agarwal This email is licensed under http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com 065C 6D79 A68C E7EA 52B3 8D70 950D 53FB 729A 8B17 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
Hi, On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 10:00:48PM +, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: > Due to some bug with kdepim and the way it corrupts its configuration on power > failure (gnome-power manager wasn't hibernating my laptop on time, so I had to > rebuild my Kmail configuration, accounts, transports, filters, folder tree > proprieties, etc, 3 times, a real pain in the butt), I started using Bazaar to > keep its settings just in case. > > It seemed so nice that I made 3 bzr repos: one for /etc (I guess a simpler > version of etckeeper), one for hand selected conf files on $HOME, and one for > an encFS crypt personal documents dir. > > Well, Olive-gtk can't really handle large amounts of documents on a branch, > and there must be a memory leak somewhere on bzr add, because after adding > some JPGs it starts eating all my RAM and SWAP (I have 4+8 GiBs). But then > again bzr is not meant for binaries files, I guess. You may want to bring your questions to the bzr mailing list. I know there are other people doing exactly what you are doing. bzr is highly configurable. The bzr devs are also very helpful. It is likely that bzr can do what you want, but that some amount of configuration is necessary to get good performance given what you are versioning. Thanks, Forest -- Forest Bond http://www.alittletooquiet.net http://www.pytagsfs.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
2008/11/3 Justin M. Wray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On that note, maybe we can obtain statistics (with permission) of debs that > are installed manually and do not exist in the repository. This data can > then be used to prioritize applications that need packaging or upgrading. We > can base priority on the number of instances we see...etc. Such statistics already exist (popcon), but there isn't any page which displays them nicely. I may have a go at generating one later today. -- Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT) Ubuntu Developer. Debian Contributor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ma, 2008-11-03 kello 08:11 +, Matthew East kirjoitti:
>> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > ma, 2008-11-03 kello 08:17 +0100, Mario Vukelic kirjoitti:
>> >> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 11:31 +0530, shirish wrote:
>> >> > had to rename it to cruft-remover-gtk due
>> >> > to trademark related names.
>> >>
>> >> Non-technical users have absolutely no idea what "cruft" means.
>> >> Wikipedia correctly says, "Cruft is computing jargon"
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft
>> >
>> > Hmmm. That is, unfortunately, a very good point. Not sure what would be
>> > the best way to deal with that.
>>
>> It's to remove the word.
>
> That would leave the name as "Remover", which is also not so good. :)
Heh, you took me a bit too literally there. I meant that the word
should be removed from the application completely, but of course it
would need to be replacd with another title. To be honest, I find the
word "Remover" a bit awkward, as well. "Removal" would work better, I
think.
I've searched through my list email to try to find the previous
discussion about why the name needed to be changed, and what
alternative names could be used, but I couldn't find it. I guess it
was during a meeting.
"System Cleaner" is the obvious name of course. I find it incredibly
dubious that a trademark could validly be enforced over a name which
is made up of generic and descriptive terms. As far as I know most
legal systems require trademarks to be distinctive. I suppose the
concern is over this product?
http://www.pointstone.com/products/systemcleaner/
I see that at the bottom of that website, the company seek to assert a
trademark over the name, although it's (perhaps intentionally)
ambiguous whether it is a registered trademark. I'd be surprised.
Even if there is a valid trademark there, I'm sure an alternative name
can be found with a bit of brainstorming. Just to kick things off:
System Cleanup, Cleanup Your System, System Restore (is that a
trademark too?), System Cleanser, System Janitor,
{Unwanted/Unused/Obsolete} {Program/File} {Removal/Cleanup}
Some of those are pretty bad as well, but hopefully would be an
improvement. My favourite would be "Obsolete File Removal".
--
Matthew East
http://www.mdke.org
gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF
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Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
Maybe this is my misinterpertation of the purpose of the application, but I am unsure that a whitelist/blacklist would be the right solution. Correct me if I am wrong, but the tool removes apps that are not in the repository (for whatever reason; manually install, obsolete, etc). Why would we white list such apps? If such a use case exists for the package to stay on the system (example - manually installed apps) should the app not exist in the repository? On that note, maybe we can obtain statistics (with permission) of debs that are installed manually and do not exist in the repository. This data can then be used to prioritize applications that need packaging or upgrading. We can base priority on the number of instances we see...etc. Thought? Thanks, Justin M. Wray Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -Original Message- From: "(``-_-´´) -- Fernando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:34:24 To: Subject: Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 12:22 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I meant flyback. > http://flyback-project.org/ There's also TimeVault: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeVault Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
ma, 2008-11-03 kello 12:49 +0100, Markus Hitter kirjoitti: > Doesn't apt-get suggest to "auto-remove" packages from time to time? > Obviously, the packaging mechanism keeps track of which packages were > installed by user command and which ones solely as a dependency. That's true, and a future version of cruft-remover (or whatever it will be called) will support that. > To add my own $ o.o2, I'd very much like to see a tool or Synaptic > feature which tells me about the differences between a standard > install and the current set of installed packages. That's something cruft-remover could eventually do, too, if people think it is a useful feature. Could you file a wishlist bug against the system-cleaner package about it? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
ma, 2008-11-03 kello 08:11 +, Matthew East kirjoitti: > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ma, 2008-11-03 kello 08:17 +0100, Mario Vukelic kirjoitti: > >> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 11:31 +0530, shirish wrote: > >> > had to rename it to cruft-remover-gtk due > >> > to trademark related names. > >> > >> Non-technical users have absolutely no idea what "cruft" means. > >> Wikipedia correctly says, "Cruft is computing jargon" > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft > > > > Hmmm. That is, unfortunately, a very good point. Not sure what would be > > the best way to deal with that. > > It's to remove the word. That would leave the name as "Remover", which is also not so good. :) I'm OK with renaming the whole application again, if that's the consensus. Perhaps it would be enough to just change its name in the .desktop file, though? > The whole application needs a thorough review. Agreed. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
ma, 2008-11-03 kello 10:30 +, Matthew East kirjoitti: > If there is genuinely no way of keeping the system clean without some > user intervention, then certainly there is a use for such a program. There is really no way of knowing for certain that a given package is or is not required by the user, in the general case. In some cases a heuristic can be good enough to be used without asking the user, but in many cases there is no such heuristic. For example, if ubuntu-desktop drops a dependency on, say, a hypothetical spreadsheet-application package, that doesn't mean it should be removed when the system is upgraded to the next release. The user might be using the application heavily, and would be quite upset to have it removed, even if there is another, compatible, but different program now installed by default (think gnumeric vs oo-calc: both work, more or less equally well, but they're different enough that a user might have a strong preference for one or the other). Thus, I am of the opinion that a tool to do cleanup, in collaboration with the user, is a good idea. I am, obviously, biased. I freely admit, though, that the current user interface needs review and improvement, and I welcome all help I can get. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 13:07 +0100, Robert Entner wrote: > I could also think about something like: > apt-get remove > > Or is this already possible somehow? > You can do this easilly with aptitude's TUI. Open sudo aptitude and navigate in the menu interface to the Installed Packages line. Than issue the command key M so it will mark ALL installed packages as being automatically installed. This will auto select *evertything* as unneeded and for removal. Then search for ubuntu-desktop, and unmark it as auto installed with m This will keep it installed, as well as it's dependecies, and recommendencies. Then, to commit, use g once for the summary of changes, and another time for confirmation. regards FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: finding out if network-manager has published online/offline status?
On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:13:22AM -0500, Matt Price wrote: > hi, > > i just reported a bug on evolution > (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/293046) that, > on reflection, i think might actually be a network-manager bug. The > symptom in evolution is a hang while pinging imap server, which occurs > on laptop wakeup. thinking about it, probably the problem isthat > network-manager isn't reporting the online status accurately, or there's > a reace condition between evolution's pinging and network-manager's > reporting. (though even so it seems to me that the ping process > shouldn't cause evolution to hang the way it does!). Anyway, i'm > wondering if i can somehow monitor network-manager to see if it's > reporting its offline status in the way that evolutin expects it to. > Thanks for the help! > Does nm-tool provide you enough info? Anyway, maybe this can be improved in NM, but at least evolution shouldn't hang in any case. If it does it's clearly an evolution bug. - Alexander -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
finding out if network-manager has published online/offline status?
hi, i just reported a bug on evolution (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/293046) that, on reflection, i think might actually be a network-manager bug. The symptom in evolution is a hang while pinging imap server, which occurs on laptop wakeup. thinking about it, probably the problem isthat network-manager isn't reporting the online status accurately, or there's a reace condition between evolution's pinging and network-manager's reporting. (though even so it seems to me that the ping process shouldn't cause evolution to hang the way it does!). Anyway, i'm wondering if i can somehow monitor network-manager to see if it's reporting its offline status in the way that evolutin expects it to. Thanks for the help! matt -- Matt Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Markus Hitter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Am 03.11.2008 um 11:48 schrieb James Westby:
>
> > there is no way to tell the difference between obsolete packages
> > and locally installed ones.
>
> Doesn't apt-get suggest to "auto-remove" packages from time to time?
> Obviously, the packaging mechanism keeps track of which packages were
> installed by user command and which ones solely as a dependency.
>
> To add my own $ o.o2, I'd very much like to see a tool or Synaptic
> feature which tells me about the differences between a standard
> install and the current set of installed packages. One can purge
> package by package until {Synaptic, apt-get,...} wants to remove the
> ubuntu-desktop meta-package, but this is tedious, very tedious.
> Perhaps this exists already, but I didn't notice yet.
>
I could also think about something like:
apt-get remove
Or is this already possible somehow?
Burt
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Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
2008/11/3 Markus Hitter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> To add my own $ o.o2, I'd very much like to see a tool or Synaptic
> feature which tells me about the differences between a standard
> install and the current set of installed packages. One can purge
> package by package until {Synaptic, apt-get,...} wants to remove the
> ubuntu-desktop meta-package, but this is tedious, very tedious.
> Perhaps this exists already, but I didn't notice yet.
>
Indeed, I'd like a "revert to standard packages" option which removes
absolutely anything that was added post-install. I'd suspect this
would be faster than a reinstall to get a machine back to some level
of normality. It could even be included as part of the recovery mode.
Cheers,
Al.
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Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
Am 03.11.2008 um 11:48 schrieb James Westby:
> there is no way to tell the difference between obsolete packages
> and locally installed ones.
Doesn't apt-get suggest to "auto-remove" packages from time to time?
Obviously, the packaging mechanism keeps track of which packages were
installed by user command and which ones solely as a dependency.
To add my own $ o.o2, I'd very much like to see a tool or Synaptic
feature which tells me about the differences between a standard
install and the current set of installed packages. One can purge
package by package until {Synaptic, apt-get,...} wants to remove the
ubuntu-desktop meta-package, but this is tedious, very tedious.
Perhaps this exists already, but I didn't notice yet.
MarKus
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/
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Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
Olá Alan e a todos. On Monday 03 November 2008 10:34:49 Alan Pope wrote: > I have installed a few applications from debs which I (as the > user/owner of the system) would certainly not class as cruft, and > wouldn't want this application to make that decision for me. Whilst I > appreciate that it's possible for me to 'uncheck' packages, I don't > like the idea that an Ubuntu supplied application is telling me that > my selection of applications is classed as cruft. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/system-cleaner/+bug/285746 System cleaner removes explicitly installed third-party packages The current suggestions seems to go with working a white/black list of know apps to keep/remove -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Monday 03 November 2008 09:36:04 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 22:00 +, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: > > Also it would be nice to see some tool result from this and be included > > into Jaunty. I remember reading about something called TimeMachine, but I > > have no idea how that is going. > > Time Machine is a Mac OSX thing. I meant flyback. http://flyback-project.org/ -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 10:34 +, Alan Pope wrote: > 2008/11/3 James Westby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Perhaps we need some sort of tool installed by default that removes > > packages that are no longer needed, and may be considered cruft :-) > > > > I'd agree the word "cruft" is unsuitable given the fact that it's a geek > phrase. > > By way of an unscientific test I just asked two co-workers if they > could define "cruft". One (who is quite a language enthusiast) said > he'd never heard it. The other said "something to do with dogs". Heh :-) > As well as the ambiguity of the word itself, it doesn't correctly > describe what the app actually does either. From what I can tell it > looks for .debs that have been installed via some method other than > apt - that is to say other than via a currently active repository. > > I have installed a few applications from debs which I (as the > user/owner of the system) would certainly not class as cruft, and > wouldn't want this application to make that decision for me. Whilst I > appreciate that it's possible for me to 'uncheck' packages, I don't > like the idea that an Ubuntu supplied application is telling me that > my selection of applications is classed as cruft. > > Of course this may be a bug in the app, or my misinterpretation of its use. No, it's just a limitation of our packaging system, there is no way to tell the difference between obsolete packages and locally installed ones. > I'd go for a name like "Orphaned Package Cleanup" which is somewhat > less pejorative than "Cruft". The app has wider scope than just removing packages. It's original intent was to allow those who upgrade to get the same features as those who re-install, where the change was made in the installer or similar. For instance, the switch was made to mount partitions with relatime, but this can't be done on upgrade. If you don't have this option set then the app will offer to add it for you. It doesn't have many of these features yet though, and your system obviously didn't require any of the non-package ones. Yes, this example isn't really removing anything, so the name doesn't work too well either. When it became clear that the package had to be renamed Lars asked for suggestions, and this was the best that was suggested. Thanks, James -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Alan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'd go for a name like "Orphaned Package Cleanup" which is somewhat > less pejorative than "Cruft". There is also this application, which is already in the Ubuntu repositories, that seems to do the same thing: Site: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/gtkorphan.html Screenshots: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/goshots.html Ubuntu package: http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/gtkorphan The design looks rather better though, maybe the projects can be merged. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
2008/11/3 James Westby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Perhaps we need some sort of tool installed by default that removes > packages that are no longer needed, and may be considered cruft :-) > I'd agree the word "cruft" is unsuitable given the fact that it's a geek phrase. By way of an unscientific test I just asked two co-workers if they could define "cruft". One (who is quite a language enthusiast) said he'd never heard it. The other said "something to do with dogs". As well as the ambiguity of the word itself, it doesn't correctly describe what the app actually does either. From what I can tell it looks for .debs that have been installed via some method other than apt - that is to say other than via a currently active repository. I have installed a few applications from debs which I (as the user/owner of the system) would certainly not class as cruft, and wouldn't want this application to make that decision for me. Whilst I appreciate that it's possible for me to 'uncheck' packages, I don't like the idea that an Ubuntu supplied application is telling me that my selection of applications is classed as cruft. Of course this may be a bug in the app, or my misinterpretation of its use. I'd go for a name like "Orphaned Package Cleanup" which is somewhat less pejorative than "Cruft". Cheers, Al. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:15 AM, James Westby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 10:06 +, Matthew East wrote: >> This is the second time I've been bitten by a problem like this... it >> seems that people tracking intrepid frequently end up with a desktop >> that is different to that which is finally released. No doubt this >> policy has been considered and there is a reason for it, but it sure >> is confusing! > > Perhaps we need some sort of tool installed by default that removes > packages that are no longer needed, and may be considered cruft :-) If there is genuinely no way of keeping the system clean without some user intervention, then certainly there is a use for such a program. It's a little dangerous I guess because there if such a program exists, then it might be difficult to reserve its use strictly for situations where it is impossible for the developers to effect the cleanup in the upgrade process. But this thread so far has been about the design of the application, rather than whether its existence is justified or not. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 10:06 +, Matthew East wrote: > This is the second time I've been bitten by a problem like this... it > seems that people tracking intrepid frequently end up with a desktop > that is different to that which is finally released. No doubt this > policy has been considered and there is a reason for it, but it sure > is confusing! Perhaps we need some sort of tool installed by default that removes packages that are no longer needed, and may be considered cruft :-) Thanks, James -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Chris Coulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008/11/3 Matthew East <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> The whole application needs a thorough review. To be honest, it's >> pretty surprising that it was included by default in Intrepid, >> considering the high quality of presentation of the rest of the >> desktop. For me, it has the feeling of an application that was rushed >> in without much attention to detail. > > Matthew, > > It is not included in Intrepid by default. It was dropped from the > dependencies of ubuntu-desktop before release. Thanks for letting me know. This is the second time I've been bitten by a problem like this... it seems that people tracking intrepid frequently end up with a desktop that is different to that which is finally released. No doubt this policy has been considered and there is a reason for it, but it sure is confusing! -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
Am 02.11.2008 um 23:00 schrieb (``-_-´´) -- Fernando: > The reason I'm emailing you guys and galls, is to ask if someone > recommends any other Version Control System, that can suit my needs > of safe guarding my confs as versioning, plus binary files. > AFAIK git aint that good, because each commit will store ALL files, > and not just the updates. Git will, like any other version control system, store changes only. If you see complete files for each version in git, that's because git is lazy in tidying up it's repository and creates complete files on the fly, as needed. A significant advantage over some of it's competitors is in your case, it works with a single private (.git) directory. Git works here for controlling binary files just fine. Binaries disallow merging, of course. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
2008/11/3 Matthew East <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The whole application needs a thorough review. To be honest, it's > pretty surprising that it was included by default in Intrepid, > considering the high quality of presentation of the rest of the > desktop. For me, it has the feeling of an application that was rushed > in without much attention to detail. Matthew, It is not included in Intrepid by default. It was dropped from the dependencies of ubuntu-desktop before release. Regards Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
2008/11/2 (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Also it would be nice to see some tool result from this and be included > into Jaunty. I remember reading about something called TimeMachine, but I > have no idea how that is going. > > Thanks for your time. > > -- > BUGabundo :o) > (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net > Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB > My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > I think you're referring to something called TimeVault [1]. Regards Chris [1] - https://launchpad.net/timevault -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Version Control
On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 22:00 +, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: > Also it would be nice to see some tool result from this and be included into > Jaunty. I remember reading about something called TimeMachine, but I have no > idea how that is going. Time Machine is a Mac OSX thing. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Version Control
Due to some bug with kdepim and the way it corrupts its configuration on power failure (gnome-power manager wasn't hibernating my laptop on time, so I had to rebuild my Kmail configuration, accounts, transports, filters, folder tree proprieties, etc, 3 times, a real pain in the butt), I started using Bazaar to keep its settings just in case. It seemed so nice that I made 3 bzr repos: one for /etc (I guess a simpler version of etckeeper), one for hand selected conf files on $HOME, and one for an encFS crypt personal documents dir. Well, Olive-gtk can't really handle large amounts of documents on a branch, and there must be a memory leak somewhere on bzr add, because after adding some JPGs it starts eating all my RAM and SWAP (I have 4+8 GiBs). But then again bzr is not meant for binaries files, I guess. The reason I'm emailing you guys and galls, is to ask if someone recommends any other Version Control System, that can suit my needs of safe guarding my confs as versioning, plus binary files. AFAIK git aint that good, because each commit will store ALL files, and not just the updates. Also it would be nice to see some tool result from this and be included into Jaunty. I remember reading about something called TimeMachine, but I have no idea how that is going. Thanks for your time. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: rename system-cleaner-gtk to cruft-remover-gtk
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ma, 2008-11-03 kello 08:17 +0100, Mario Vukelic kirjoitti: >> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 11:31 +0530, shirish wrote: >> > had to rename it to cruft-remover-gtk due >> > to trademark related names. >> >> Non-technical users have absolutely no idea what "cruft" means. >> Wikipedia correctly says, "Cruft is computing jargon" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft > > Hmmm. That is, unfortunately, a very good point. Not sure what would be > the best way to deal with that. It's to remove the word. The whole application needs a thorough review. To be honest, it's pretty surprising that it was included by default in Intrepid, considering the high quality of presentation of the rest of the desktop. For me, it has the feeling of an application that was rushed in without much attention to detail. Aside from the unfortunate name (it would work for a geeky superhero, but not an application on a professional desktop), here are some other issues: 1. The menu entry has no icon and the menu entry tooltip is long and unwieldy. 2. The application window contains an "explanation" of what the program is. It says "This application helps you get rid of cruft". Considering that the program is called "Cruft Remover", that doesn't really take things very far! 3. It's unclear from the application window what is actually going to happen to the things which are ticked in the window if you click "Apply". A user won't know whether to tick, or to untick a box in order to uninstall a particular package. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
