Re: The fate of Upstart

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 29.11.2014 22:31, I.E.G. wrote:

Hi,

> I was a "little" surprised to see the "...has been converted to an
> upstart job" message some time ago in response to a ~$ /etc/init.d/
> stop/start/restart/foo .
> I tried the ~$ service stop/start/restart/foo and it either didn't work
> or produced the same "...has been converted to an upstart job".

Yeah, had the same problems...

> I'll just offer one example of what I don't want to see . A deployment
> or migration such as the the protracted abortion that was PulseAudio . I
> still have several hardware instances that never did (and I suspect
> never will) tolerate PulseAudio.

For me, it at least works w/ my hardware, but far from rock-stable.
I regularily have to kill and restart it.

In fact, I never really understood why it's necessary at all.
Okay, moving more stuff into userland has some benefits (eg. adding
virtual devices running as separate servers, etc) - but then it should
be done more consequently, like Plan9 does.

Maybe, if i've someday got enough spare time, I'll fork it and rebuild
it to an plan9'ish system-wide service. Then it would make sense to
move all audio applications to that service only (dropping all native
alsa support).

But for now, I'm still too occupied with other things. For now I'm
more concerned with getting rid of dbus/polkit.

> I even had PA/Devl tell me to upgrade my
> month old hardware in order to make it work (a long and only slightly
> humorous story I'll spare you ) .

Well, the usual Lennartists behaviour ...


cu
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Re: Devuan

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 02.12.2014 11:11, Stephen P. Villano wrote:

> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the

Dont they play in entirely different areas ?

I just started to care about polkit, when began doing weird things
and causing network-manager to break (more precise: the gnome
frontend suddenly wasn't authorized anymore). So I digged a bit
deeper, wondering why the usual group memberships didn't work anymore
(had to rewrite several polkit configs to make it work again).

At that point it was clear to me that it's a pretty useless invention,
just caused by the fact that some folks, for dubious reasons, prefer
doing everything via RPC on an broadcast channel (dbus) and then have
the problem of selective access control - things which old-fashnioned
Unix guys like me always did via direct links and filesystem
permissions.

One of my side projects now is getting rid of polkit/dbus at all,
replace it by a clean plan9-alike approach, of course using factotum
for authentication.

> I used to run SuSE until Novell screwed it up.

They've been screwing up even before Novell. 4.4.1 was the best
release they ever had - after that it just went worse and worse.
All the good people had been running away (I just happen to know
some of them personally, and know some of their reasons) - the
novell merge was more a logical consequence of that path :p


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smtp blacklisting [WAS: Re: Devuan]

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

Some time ago, I observed even major ISPs being blacklisted
in some spamfilter appliance network (just forgot its name ;-o),
where I'm *pretty* sure that they're not spamming (I know these
guys personally, and they're quite professional, compared to
other companies of this size) - and there was no way of finding
out why they have been blacklisted.

Oh, did you say "marketing server" ? Well, if you're sending
much newsletters etc, that could be the reason - some operators
are a bit too overcautious and block anybody who's traffic
exceeds some (pretty low) threshold - these also usually hit
hi traffic maillists like LKML.


cu
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Re: Devuan

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 02.12.2014 11:24, Martin Pitt wrote:

Hi folks,

> Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu
> doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing
> else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and
> support).

by the way: could anybody please enlighten me why you folks
are rolling an own distro at all ?

I'd guess it has something to do with LTS ... right ?
But wouldn't it be more efficient to just pick stable Debian
releases and do the LTS there ?

Am I missing some vital aspect ?

> (Technical problems, not "I don't like it" :-) ).

Well, the "I dont like it" aspect shouldn't be underestimated.
I regularily observed migration projects failing, not for
technical reasons, but users simply not liking the new systems
(sometimes even pretty trivial things like menus looking different).

This also relates to usability, which is _very_ subjective.


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Re: Devuan

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

Heya,

On 2 December 2014 at 11:57, Diego Germán Gonzalez
 wrote:
> El 02/12/14 a las 08:12, Tom H escibió:
>>
>> Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the
>> past?
>>
>> --
>
> Why use Unity when we always use Gnome?
> Why use LibreOffice when we always use OpenOffice?
> Why use Mir when we always use Xorg and all the rest will use Wayland?
> Again, I have no opinion about it, but something has not been done so far is
> not argument that can not be done in the future
>

You missed the point of the question. Each flavour released by Ubuntu
Project serves a concrete purpose and has one good default only.
That is the one thing that is core to the Ubuntu Project and has been
the case always.

Each ubuntu flavour only ships one DE, one productivity suite, and one
graphical stack.

Some of this things and choices are different for each flavour.

However most flavours use the same kernel config. All ubuntu flavours
use the same glibc and toolchain. As those are things inherited from
Ubuntu Core which is common across all.
And at the moment the cores init system is upstart. There is plans and
work to migrate to systemd. Once that is done, and all flavours are
validated / ported as well, only one init will remain.
This is exactly the same way how Core has transitioned to new baseline
in the past in the Ubuntu project. And for each of those things Ubuntu
project selects the best option for it, and doesn't ship multiples
(e.g. we never supported eglibc & glibc at the same time, we did
change the default from one project to another over the past years as
the conditions changed).

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Re: Devuan

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

On 2 December 2014 at 10:11, Stephen P. Villano
 wrote:
>
> On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
>> On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote:
>>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02  7:55 +0100]:
 By the way: is it then be mandatory ?
>>> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu
>>> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so.
>> Okay, thanks for the clear statement.
>>
>> So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating
>> away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc).
>> The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged
>> for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's
>> stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore.
>>
>>
>> cu
>> --
> Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of
> software and operating systems.
> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the

SElinux and SMACK are enabled in Ubuntu Kernels, and core packages are
compiled with SElinux features enabled thus one can use SElinux
policies on ubuntu base.
Ditto with smack. Thus in certain ways ubuntu is more flexible and
accommodating. Especially when it comes to cruitial hardware support &
technologies.

The rest of email is has just as bogus claims.

Regards,

Dimitri.


> baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take
> other measures to ensure security.
> Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the
> policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear
> understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu
> branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well
> documented by the Ubuntu team.
> Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I
> operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment,
> depending upon the client environmental preferences.
> At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE
> until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment
> in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at
> home. I run a full enterprise network at home.
> For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running
> "out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of
> Ubuntu and Debian practices.
> Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather
> loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and
> sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise.
> As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to
> desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level
> AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In
> that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be
> compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack
> against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was
> compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security.
>
> So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world.
> Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas.
>
> Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally
> aroused me, I'll now go to bed.
> Oh wait, it didn't.
> I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles
> and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I
> do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television.
> But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and
> it's past bedtime by a few minutes.
>
>
> --
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> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
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Re: Devuan

[Diego Germán Gonzalez]

El 02/12/14 a las 08:12, Tom H escibió:

Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the past?

--

Why use Unity when we always use Gnome?
Why use LibreOffice when we always use OpenOffice?
Why use Mir when we always use Xorg and all the rest will use Wayland?
Again, I have no opinion about it, but something has not been done so 
far is not argument that can not be done in the future


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Re: Devuan

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
 wrote:
> On 01.12.2014 19:15, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd!
>
> By the way: is it then be mandatory ?

Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the past?

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Re: Devuan

[Stephen P. Villano]

On 12/2/14 5:24 AM, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Stephen P. Villano [2014-12-02  5:11 -0500]:
>> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit
> You know that these two have pretty much nothing in common, right?
> Perhaps you meant "SELinux over AppArmor"?
>
> Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu
> doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing
> else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and
> support).
>
> So indeed, if for some reason you can't use the choice that Ubuntu
> made, then going directly to Debian is probably a better choice. Even
> better of course would be to point out actual problems in Ubuntu's
> choice so that we can improve it. (Technical problems, not "I don't
> like it" :-) ).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martin
>
>
Yeah, a comparison. I guess I should've made that comparison clarified
far better.

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Re: Devuan

[Stephen P. Villano]

On 12/2/14 5:26 AM, Mehboob Nazim wrote:
> dear all,
>
>
> i have a marketing server for office use and based linux.Now i need to
> change the smtp ip address for a time being because last ip has been
> blacklisted..
>
>
> kindly share me idea..
>
>  
>

Erm, first, find out *why* your server was blacklisted.
Based upon personal experience, the reason is easily present. Look at
blacklisted servers (google it).
Look at your *network* traffic and see what is actually going out. I
fsck'ed up once on a proxy server I used to use "regular" internet in a
nation that massively filtered traffic. I also left far too many IP's
open and one spammer got in.  The provider cut service and upon inquiry,
explained the issue. I immediately remediated my gaffe. Such remained
online until I returned home to the US and no longer require said service.

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Re: Devuan

[Mehboob Nazim]

dear all,


i have a marketing server for office use and based linux.Now i need to
change the smtp ip address for a time being because last ip has been
blacklisted..


kindly share me idea..



On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Stephen P. Villano <
stephen.p.vill...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> > On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote:
> >> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02  7:55 +0100]:
> >>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ?
> >> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu
> >> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so.
> > Okay, thanks for the clear statement.
> >
> > So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating
> > away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc).
> > The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged
> > for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's
> > stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore.
> >
> >
> > cu
> > --
> Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of
> software and operating systems.
> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the
> baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take
> other measures to ensure security.
> Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the
> policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear
> understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu
> branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well
> documented by the Ubuntu team.
> Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I
> operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment,
> depending upon the client environmental preferences.
> At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE
> until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment
> in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at
> home. I run a full enterprise network at home.
> For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running
> "out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of
> Ubuntu and Debian practices.
> Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather
> loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and
> sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise.
> As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to
> desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level
> AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In
> that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be
> compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack
> against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was
> compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security.
>
> So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world.
> Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas.
>
> Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally
> aroused me, I'll now go to bed.
> Oh wait, it didn't.
> I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles
> and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I
> do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television.
> But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and
> it's past bedtime by a few minutes.
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>



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Aslamoalikum:

regard;
Mehboob Nazim Shehzad
*Cell # 03320593372*
*www.mehboobnazim.com *
*Skype Id: mehboobfraz*
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Re: Devuan

[Martin Pitt]

Stephen P. Villano [2014-12-02  5:11 -0500]:
> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit

You know that these two have pretty much nothing in common, right?
Perhaps you meant "SELinux over AppArmor"?

Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu
doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing
else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and
support).

So indeed, if for some reason you can't use the choice that Ubuntu
made, then going directly to Debian is probably a better choice. Even
better of course would be to point out actual problems in Ubuntu's
choice so that we can improve it. (Technical problems, not "I don't
like it" :-) ).

Thanks,

Martin


-- 
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Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Re: Devuan

[Stephen P. Villano]

On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote:
>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02  7:55 +0100]:
>>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ?
>> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu
>> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so.
> Okay, thanks for the clear statement.
>
> So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating
> away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc).
> The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged
> for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's
> stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore.
>
>
> cu
> --
Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of
software and operating systems.
Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the
baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take
other measures to ensure security.
Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the
policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear
understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu
branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well
documented by the Ubuntu team.
Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I
operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment,
depending upon the client environmental preferences.
At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE
until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment
in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at
home. I run a full enterprise network at home.
For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running
"out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of
Ubuntu and Debian practices.
Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather
loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and
sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise.
As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to
desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level
AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In
that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be
compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack
against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was
compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security.

So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world.
Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas.

Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally
aroused me, I'll now go to bed.
Oh wait, it didn't.
I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles
and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I
do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television.
But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and
it's past bedtime by a few minutes.


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Re: Devuan

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02  7:55 +0100]:
>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ?
> 
> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu
> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so.

Okay, thanks for the clear statement.

So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating
away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc).
The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged
for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's
stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore.


cu
--
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metux IT consulting
+49-151-27565287

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