subject:"Is disabling ctrl\-alt\-backspace really such a good idea\?"

Mario,

Yes. I would rather lose my work than switch to a virtual console and
spend half an hour finding out which offending program to kill.

I have tried several times to use C-A-F# to get back control of my gnome
session, and have yet to succeed. I rarely, if ever, have completely
unrecoverable work being preformed. OpenOffice saves my work every so often,
I never do text editing in gedit unless i'm programing. In which case more
likely than not I'm saving every minute or so. Pidgin, Firefox, if I lose my
state its no big deal.

Its a time trade off for me. Spend a potentially un-capped amount of
time finding which program is glitching, possibly only to find that its the
one program I have unsaved work in, or spend a known amount of time zapping
X, and getting back to work. I choose the guarenteed capped amount of time
over the uncapped amount of time in every case. I am often in situations
where I cannot afford any unknown delays.

Additionally, other times when I encounter gnome misbehaving, it isn't
because its frozen or unresponsive. My NVidea gfx, core 2 quad desktop
sometimes stops responding to the mouse, but still allows fully keyboard
interaction. (I believe this is related to java). I simply alt-tab to my
programs. Hit ctrl-s and save my document, and C-A-B into a new gnome
session. The alternative is spending potentially several dozen minutes
finding out which program is misbehaving. Is it annoying? Heck Yes. is it
less annoying than either of rebooting my machine or trying to find which
process is being an ass? Heck Yes.



Message: 7
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:57 +0100
From: Mario Vukelic mario.vuke...@dantian.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good
   idea?   - no.
To: u-d-d ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Message-ID: 1234514757.12426.87.ca...@chronic
Content-Type: text/plain

On Thu, 2009-02-12 at 20:16 -0500, Mike Jones wrote:
 I have absolutely no desire to C-A-F#, find the program that is giving
 me fits, and then kill it in the hopes it fixes my issue.

You rather lose your complete X session along with all data in open
files than switching to a virtual console and killing one offending
program? I gotta say I find that quite weird.
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-13 Thread Dylan McCall

This discussion is hardly relevant anymore. I agree the popup
explaining what the user is about to do would be a nice alternative,
but this is also a completely adequate solution.
I'm sure any patches for that alternative would have a good, warm and
fulfilling life.

Preferences? Fine; you can set your preferences in xorg.conf. (Please
nobody put them in Screen Resolution for the love of the Holy
Interface Guide).

Too late to set preferences, it's already crashed? Any power user who
would have used Ctrl Alt Backspace probably had the sense to read the
Jaunty release notes, which will have said (and I for one will make
sure they say this) that that key combination is disabled by default;
to use the kernel-level Alt SysRQ K instead.
While you're at it, get a different video driver.

SysRQ doesn't work or don't have the key? That's a bug in the kernel.
Please file it, or get a new keyboard. Try pressing Shift or Fn and
see if that makes a difference.

Would be sensible if keyboard / mouse grabs timed out after a while or
required the constant responsiveness of an is alive callback. (Or do
they?).


Bye,
-Dylan

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-13 Thread Remco

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com wrote:
 This discussion is hardly relevant anymore. I agree the popup
 explaining what the user is about to do would be a nice alternative,
 but this is also a completely adequate solution.
 I'm sure any patches for that alternative would have a good, warm and
 fulfilling life.

Except that popups don't work on a severely overloaded system.

 to use the kernel-level Alt SysRQ K instead.

 While you're at it, get a different video driver.

 SysRQ doesn't work or don't have the key? That's a bug in the kernel.

 Would be sensible if

Would all be really cool, but that's not the current situation. First
solve those.

Remco

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-13 Thread Vincenzo Ciancia

On 13/02/2009 Dylan McCall wrote:
 
 Too late to set preferences, it's already crashed? Any power user who
 would have used Ctrl Alt Backspace probably had the sense to read the
 Jaunty release notes, which will have said (and I for one will make
 sure they say this) that that key combination is disabled by default;
 to use the kernel-level Alt SysRQ K instead.
 While you're at it, get a different video driver.

I am sorry for jumping in the middle of a discussion I did not follow 
but if CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is going to be disabled how can anybody be 
protected from a fake login screen? And why should I reboot my machine 
if X deadlocks? At least the power button should kill X in case it can't 
be contacted.

V.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-13 Thread Dane Mutters

I've been following this discussion, and it seems that some people have
been wanting some poll results.  This might be of interest:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1040988

--Dane


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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-13 Thread Mackenzie Morgan

On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 08:15 +, richard.b...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
 Examples of aps thatneed to use CAB.

Oh, I know.  What about the cases where someone mistakenly believes that
running Frets on Fire will do something *other* than use all of the
resources so your computer can do nothing but attempt to commit sepuku?
C-A-B does work in this situation.  I think it's the only thing that
works.

(note: this may have been fixed since Hardy, but I learned not to touch
that app anymore)

-- 
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http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com
apt-get moo


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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-13 Thread Jeff Hanson

 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:30:38 +
 From: Andrew Sayers andrew-ubuntu-de...@pileofstuff.org
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good
idea?   -   no.
 To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
 Message-ID: 49954bce.80...@pileofstuff.org
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 Make tty1 run a simple ncurses application similar to friendly-recovery,
 which would give you a set of options like restart your computer, log
 out, and go back to your graphical session.  Then people can do
 c-a-f1 instead of c-a-b to get 99% of the value without the risk.
 Ubuntu users that really want a shell wouldn't be that inconvenienced,
 as they can still use c-a-f1 to c-a-f6.

I think this is a good idea.  My use case for C-A-B is when
full-screen games hang.  Windows users are used to C-A-D when
something bad happens and C-A-B is a natural response.  Your proposal
would be better but I have a suggestion.  Switching to a VT and
killing a hung application is not easy.  A full-screen process control
with a kill function (easier than top) would be a lot better than just
killing X.  The only remaining issue would be resetting desktop
resolution and the mouse pointer which often is disabled when a
full-screen application is killed.  My solution for the latter is to
run a full-screen application and exit normally which usually corrects
the problem.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-13 Thread Matthew Paul Thomas

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Remco wrote on 12/02/09 22:33:
 
 Every program that hangs but doesn't release grabs is a problem. You
 could certainly implement some kind of solution to that, but only
 after that solution is implemented, C-A-B or equivalents should be
 disabled. Not before.

The fact is, many things are easier to fix afterwards.
Particularly because that's the only time you'll find people
motivated enough to bother about it. If you were to need to fix
everything before-the-fact, nothing fundamental would ever get
fixed, simply because the people who can fix one thing are not
usually the same people who can fix another.

 -- Linus Torvalds http://lwn.net/2002/0418/a/lt-breakage.php3

 Every program that makes the system so slow that it becomes unusable
 is a problem. This can't be solved. Any buggy program can take so much
 CPU/RAM/IO that your mouse pointer moves only every 10 seconds and
 your key presses only register after that same time. Only a simple key
 press that kills the program can solve this.
...

I have no doubt that it *could* be solved if people put their minds to
it. System Monitor (or a process-specific buset) could reduce the
priority of your other programs whenever it is running, be special-cased
by the window manager to ensure other windows can't hide it, and so on.
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/13626/ In comparison, Ctrl Alt
Backspace is an appallingly bad way of stopping misbehaving programs.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-13 Thread Felix Miata

On 2009/02/13 08:31 (GMT-0800) Dylan McCall composed:

 SysRQ doesn't work or don't have the key? That's a bug in the kernel.

No SysRQ key is not a kernel bug.

 ... get a new keyboard.

Nice trick for a laptop user.

Oh, and since laptops have been outselling desktops for several years, it
probably won't be long before laptops in use outnumber desktops in use, if
they don't already.

Release notes probably should direct users to shortly after install, pay a
visit to a virtual console, to see if it's even possible to login there. In
recent releases it's all too possible that that is not the case. Ctrl-Alt-F#
won't do those users any good.
-- 
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your
mouths, but only what is helpful for building
others up. Ephesians 4:29 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

I believe Dylan is right that this discussion is no longer productive.

As I said before, it isn't that I personally object to the *zap X*
functionality being unlinked from C-A-B, as it is I object to the *zap X*
functionality having no default access method.

Changing C-A-B to A-S-K provides a reasonably solution. And I don't
particularly care *how* I access it, so long as that I can without needing
to change settings anywhere. My objection isn't that I personally can't
change settings. My objection is that most of the people who use Ubuntu that
I know rely on me to help when it confuses them. Most of the time this is
via the phone from half-way across the United States. They simply will not
understand how to modify this file, and many times the solution to their
problem is simply to zap X... but they don't know that. Their computer is
literally a unknowable black box to them, and they prefer to err on the side
of caution. The obvious solution, of course, is for me to modify this file
for them. But there are situations where that just is simply not possible.
(Remember, I am sometimes providing assistance from several hundred miles
away, with the person I am assisting basically being completely
computer-illiterate.).

I have no idea what the best way to both prevent accidental Zapping
while also allowing those users who wish to to Zap. But isn't it possible to
do that?

Others have suggested a forked process to notify the user of what they
just asked to do. Others have suggested C-A-B^2, and apparently
ctrl-alt-sysreq-k is supposed to offer similar functionality (though it asks
me if i wish to log out similar to the CtrlAltDel functionality, as sysreq
and del are the same key for me.)

What can be done?

Sincerely,
Michael Jones

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:31:27 -0800
From: Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good
   idea?
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Message-ID:
   9b6762c90902130831g12ca69efyb96a37c3df0f9...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This discussion is hardly relevant anymore. I agree the popup
explaining what the user is about to do would be a nice alternative,
but this is also a completely adequate solution.
I'm sure any patches for that alternative would have a good, warm and
fulfilling life.

Preferences? Fine; you can set your preferences in xorg.conf. (Please
nobody put them in Screen Resolution for the love of the Holy
Interface Guide).

Too late to set preferences, it's already crashed? Any power user who
would have used Ctrl Alt Backspace probably had the sense to read the
Jaunty release notes, which will have said (and I for one will make
sure they say this) that that key combination is disabled by default;
to use the kernel-level Alt SysRQ K instead.
While you're at it, get a different video driver.

SysRQ doesn't work or don't have the key? That's a bug in the kernel.
Please file it, or get a new keyboard. Try pressing Shift or Fn and
see if that makes a difference.

Would be sensible if keyboard / mouse grabs timed out after a while or
required the constant responsiveness of an is alive callback. (Or do
they?).


Bye,
-Dylan
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-13 Thread Thomas Jaeger

Martin Pitt wrote:
 Thomas Jaeger [2009-02-12 17:16 -0500]:
 This is not a healthy discussion.  We have people claiming that they
 can't live without C-A-B
 
 Nobody stops them from re-enabling it (to the contrary, there's a new
 tool dontzap which makes this very easy). Please keep in mind that
 we aren't discussing taking this away entirely, just changing the
 default.
This misses the point, though.  What has surfaced here, and I think
needs addressing is that C-A-B is not just used as a convenient way of
restarting the X server after recompiling it, but it's actually used as
a general-purpose something's-not-working-so-let's-kill-X key (this
might have been clear to you, but it actually surprised me).  This might
work for some people, but I find this a completely unacceptable solution
and I think we need to get to the bottom of those issues.

One thing that has been mentioned is how a process that requests an
infinite amount of memory can completely trash the system.  This is
definitely something we can get out of this discussion.  I'm not
familiar enough with what the kernel does, but I'm sure we could find
some more desktop-oriented kernel options that alleviate the problem
(deny requests for new memory earlier when we're low on memory, set a
hard limit on how much memory a process can request, maybe even a key
combination that kills the application that is currently using the most
memory).  I'm sure these kinds of issues have been discussed upstream
before.

 Also, please be aware of the fact that this is a *developer* list,
 who naturally has a differnent and more expert-oriented approach to
 using a system.
Yeah, this is why I thought I could get good descriptions of what
problems people are running into, but I guess they just don't care as
long as there's a quick way to zap X.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-13 Thread Thomas Jaeger

Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
 Remco wrote on 12/02/09 22:33:
 Every program that hangs but doesn't release grabs is a problem. You
 could certainly implement some kind of solution to that, but only
 after that solution is implemented, C-A-B or equivalents should be
 disabled. Not before.
 
 The fact is, many things are easier to fix afterwards.
 Particularly because that's the only time you'll find people
 motivated enough to bother about it. If you were to need to fix
 everything before-the-fact, nothing fundamental would ever get
 fixed, simply because the people who can fix one thing are not
 usually the same people who can fix another.
 
  -- Linus Torvalds http://lwn.net/2002/0418/a/lt-breakage.php3

So true.  This is off-topic, but we've had the problem in bug 217908 [1]
for almost a year now, simply because the cairo folks are to nice to
expose bugs in the drivers.  And no surprises here, even after sending
patches to the upstream driver projects, three of them still haven't
fixed the issue.

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/217908

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

Thomas,

Thank you for letting me know what additional information I needed to
provide. I will get it as soon as I have an opportunity. I really appreciate
the help.

As for the whole C-A-B issue... yes, honestly, dude, I wish that I never
had to use C-A-B. But I do. I report bugs when I'm reasonably sure its not
just me messing up, but I can't find everything. Nor do I have the time to
file a report for everything I encounter (I wish I did).

***   In order to fix bugs, we need people that are able and willing to
track
***   down the issues.

No.
Technically what you say is true. But realistically, it is not. It is
not a valid assumption that any given user X will ever file a bug report.
Yes, many users do, nearly all that I know personally... but to assume that
a specific user will do so is a fallacy.

And completely separate from that consideration: I ask again. What do
the users who do file a bug report, and who do have a legitimate problem,
and who do try to troubleshoot the issue as much as they can, but who
experience the same problem that is most easily worked around by calling
C-A-B do in the meantime, while they are waiting for  their bug to be fixed
or trying to fix it themselves?

You say that any user who reasonably could do all of those above things
will modify their configuration files.
I say that that is an unreasonable assumption. People can file reports
on behalf of other people, while the original person who experiences the
problem is still effectively SOL.
Whether it was intended to be a feature or not when it was first
implemented, many users consider that hot-key sequence to be a feature, not
a hack. The intended purpose for a operation in software is irreverent if a
user continually uses something for an operation which it was not originally
intended for. Either that new user defined purpose is appended to the
original intended use, or it replaces that intended use.

Arguing that C-A-B should be removed on the merits of it being
accidentally activated is a perfectly legitimate argument. I agree that it
HAS happened to me in the past. But I disagree that it should be completely
removed. I disagree that I should be forced to edit a configuration file to
restore the functionality (regardless of how trivially easy it is). Changing
the activation sequence is one thing. Removing the functionality from on the
fly access is entirely different.

Could we not compromise?



On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mike Jones wrote:
  It is unreasonable to expect even users who have programing experience to
  use the terminal for honestly much more than occasional scripts. I have
  absolutely no desire to C-A-F#, find the program that is giving me fits,
 and
  then kill it in the hopes it fixes my issue.
 In order to fix bugs, we need people that are able and willing to track
 down the issues.

 
 
  I'm one of those users who would prefer that the C-A-B command be
 left
  as it is, or be modified to allow the ability through some other
  interface:
  such as twice successive.
 
  I have filed several bug reports about issues related to problems
 with
  X, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/289898 for example.
  This is a kernel bug.  I would be very surprised if C-A-B worked here.
 
 
  C-A-B does not work in that instance, you are correct. But since you seem
 to
  know so much about it, could you please provide a fix for me? I have been
  unable to figure out anything beyond what I reported already.
 There's no useful information in that bug report.  What you need is a
 dmesg from after the bug has happened if possible, or a backtrace if
 it's a kernel panic (flashing leds).

 See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies#Capturing%20OOPs and
 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSystemCrash .  You'll
 probably need to forward the bug upstream once you've gathered the
 necessary information, it doesn't look like anybody's working on it.

  But the problem is still going to be there for that person from when
 they
  originally filed the bug until the problem has been tracked down, until
 a
  fix has been written, until its been tested to not break anything, until
  its
  been patched to the package, until the package as been released, and
  finally
  the package has been downloaded (and in the case of things like the
  kernal,
  and graphics support) until the computer (or X) has been restarted.
  This is why we need to figure out if there's some sort of pattern behind
  the problems people are seeing.
 
  I agree with John Moser. Allow the user to go back to work, and
  automatically file a bug report using the apport interface. I assume
 thats
  why apport exists, to catch crashes and report them when possible.
  Otherwise... why does it pop up on my screen whenever a program
 crashes..?

 Except that apparently most of the issues that people are solving with
 C-A-B have nothing to do with the X server.

Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

Mario,

I'm sorry if I appear to be bitching / whining. That wasn't my intention. If
you would like I can stop posting my thoughts. I didn't intend to cause
problems.

**Your problem, really.

I don't believe so. While the command line is reasonably simple to use
for me, as I have said in other posts, it is not so simple for others that I
know. They are very hesitant to ever use it, and some of them do not know
that there are virtual terminals in the first place.

But the problem of lost work is not what bothers me. Please rest assured
my work is very important to me. But I save often enough that it is
impractical to worry about it.  As I've posted previous to your reply, my
concern is for the time. Given a capped, or uncapped length of time needed
to be spent getting back to what i was doing, I choose a capped and finite
amount of time. That's my choice and I have no problem with losing my
(rarely) unsaved work because of it.

For the example of say my grandparents. They do not know what the
terminal is. They do not know they have a series of virtual terminals, and
they also do not have the capability to reliably use either when given voice
direction. They do not have any understanding of networking, or port
forwarding, so sshing into their machine is not conceivable, and
occasionally, I do get a phone call from them asking me why their mouse
won't respond. Every time, my question is will you lose anything
important?, every time their reply is no, i was only reading email and
every time my response is to do C-A-B.

Yes, as I've said before, editing a config file is not impossible. But
for my grandparents, who I cannot reasonably be expected to have physical
contact with more often that every few months, it is entirely impossible.

Your reply will be to tell them not to upgrade to jaunty. My reply is
that they should be able to use the updater without worrying that they
cannoy rely on their grandson for support because he will ask them to use
the command line.


For various reasons which I may have mentioned before. I have had to
kill X using the C-A-B key shortcuts several dozen times per month since I
began using Linux. Am I doing something wrong? Ubuntu freezes or misbehaves
quite a bit less than Windows does, and I assumed that because many of the
packages I used were still being improved, there may have been bugs or
problems. When I have been able to I have submitted a report.

Perhaps I am doing something I'm not supposed to with the way I have my
machine set up? I could give you information about it if you can tell me
what to provide. I would be very grateful for your help if you could point
out what I'm doing that causes me so many problems.

Thank you

-Michael Jones

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Mario Vukelic mario.vuke...@dantian.orgwrote:

 On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 11:15 -0500, Mike Jones wrote:
Yes. I would rather lose my work than switch to a virtual console
  and spend half an hour finding out which offending program to kill.

 Your problem, really.

  I have tried several times to use C-A-F# to get back control of my
  gnome session, and have yet to succeed. I rarely, if ever, have
  completely unrecoverable work being preformed.

 Well, other people actually do useful work on their computers and lose
 it because they accidentally hit C-A-B. I don't think that executing *a
 single command* to reenable it, if your really want it, is worth all the
 bitching on the list.

 I, personally, have used Linux distros extensively since 1996 and can't
 even recall the last time I had to kill X, it certainly was before 2000.
 And maybe 5 times in all, I'd guess.




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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Mike Jones

Hi Thomas,

I'm one of those users who would prefer that the C-A-B command be left
as it is, or be modified to allow the ability through some other interface:
such as twice successive.

I have filed several bug reports about issues related to problems with
X, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/289898 for example.

And have several waiting to be filed upon me figuring out which out of
the 30 programs i normally have running cause the issue.

It isn't always that C-A-B lets me get back to work without needing to
do a complete restart, but unfortunately I won't ever believe someone who
tells me that Ubuntu has a completely fool-proof stable graphical
environment. Unless I'm doing something drastically wrong, I feel
encountering SOME problem once a day is no big deal. But thats okay, as
Ubuntu is still loads better than anything else I've used.

But Thomas, my main issue with with your standpoint is basically this

snipNo.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs as
long
as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.
/snip

 People do file bugs. Perhaps not everyone, and perhaps not every time.
But the problem is still going to be there for that person from when they
originally filed the bug until the problem has been tracked down, until a
fix has been written, until its been tested to not break anything, until its
been patched to the package, until the package as been released, and finally
the package has been downloaded (and in the case of things like the kernal,
and graphics support) until the computer (or X) has been restarted.

What do you suggest I do between when I report the problem until a fix
exists on my machine? Assume that I have no desire to modify configuration
files (Honestly I hate messing with config files. I personally think Ubuntu
does a very poor job of presenting them in a user friendly way. But that is
only my persona opinion), and have no ability to fix the problem myself. (I
do have a programing background, but this is for the sake of arguemnet).

 Every time a problem comes up that makes my normal workflow completely
impossible (Which happens nightly for me, to be honest. But I haven't
reported this bug because I'm still trying to figure out if its my own fault
of not), about 90% of the time, C-A-B brings me back to doing what I was
doing within 60 seconds. Not haveing C-A-B normally would make it impossible
for me to log out, reboot, or switch to C-A-Fsomething, for some reason
C-A-B works, but these methods don't, as far as I've been able to try them,
and trust me I have.

Once I submit a bug report about this issue, Can you give me a guarentee
that I will have an update sitting on my system within an amount of time
that make it reasonable to not have C-A-B immediately available to me?

Idealistically, C-A-B is not needed, because Ideally there are no
problems.

Realistically, C-A-B is useful to the points that I personally feel it
to be necessary to my computing on a day to day basis.

MIchael Jones
Junior Software Engineering and Computer Science major
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology


Message: 5
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:08:39 -0500
From: Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good
   idea?
To: John Moser john.r.mo...@gmail.com
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com, Dylan McCall
   dylanmcc...@gmail.com
Message-ID: 4993caf7.5060...@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

John Moser wrote:
 This is not how grabs work.  If a client that has grabbed the
 Keyboard/Pointer/Server is killed all grabs are automatically released.


 Try this when qemu freezes.  I've frequently had to C-A-F1, kill qemu,
 then alt-F7 back and ... wow, nothing works.  C-A-F1, DISPLAY=0:0 qemu,
 go back, hit a button, hit C-A to release grab, and close qemu.
 Repeatably.

I don't know what qemu is nor what it does when it claims do a grab.
But regular X grabs behave the way I described above.  If they aren't
released when the connection closes chances are something else is going
on.  I know this is getting old, but you don't happen to have a link to
a bug report where this is discussed?

 Bug report?

 Computers will always do very strange thnigs, most of which don't make
 sense and shouldn't happen.
 Those things can be fixed though.


 Yes, exactly.  Just don't be surprised if someone says something happens
 that shouldn't.

No.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs as long
as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Evan

From what I understand, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace isn't the only way to kill X.

Alt-Sysrq-k also works, and is still enabled, as it is significantly less
likely to be hit by accident.

I don't really see what all the fuss is about? People who know what they're
doing can still kill X if necessary, and people who don't know what they're
doing won't accidentally lose all their work when they mis-type. It seems
win-win to me.

Just my two cents,
Evan
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RE: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-12 Thread Mike Jones

Evan,

Now, I didn't know that the Alt-Sysrq-k shortcut existed previously. If
the C-A-B shortcut is being disabled because Alt-Sysrq-k does the exact same
thing with simply a different key combination, then I have no objection at
all to disabling C-A-B. Its true that its easy to hit if your not actively
trying to avoid it.

My objections stemmed from my belief that the only way to access that
feature would be disabled if C-A-B was to be disabled.

In light of that new info, I would say all of my objections are handled
quite nicely by Alt-Sysrq-k.

MIchael Jones
Junior Software Engineering and Computer Science major
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology



From what I understand, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace isn't the only way to kill X.

Alt-Sysrq-k also works, and is still enabled, as it is significantly less
likely to be hit by accident.

I don't really see what all the fuss is about? People who know what they're
doing can still kill X if necessary, and people who don't know what they're
doing won't accidentally lose all their work when they mis-type. It seems
win-win to me.

Just my two cents,
Evan
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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mike Jones eternal...@gmail.com wrote:
     In light of that new info, I would say all of my objections are handled
 quite nicely by Alt-Sysrq-k.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I agree that this new A-S-K
combination would be a good replacement. Now we only need to teach
everybody about this. C-A-B was common knowledge.

Remco

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Scott Kitterman

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:17:30 -0500 Evan eapa...@gmail.com wrote:
From what I understand, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace isn't the only way to kill X.

Alt-Sysrq-k also works, and is still enabled, as it is significantly less 
likely to be hit by accident.

... for some definition of works and not on all hardware.  A substantial 
fraction of people I'm aware of the tried this had problems.  On my laptop 
it makes the wifi light blink twice.

Scott K

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Thomas Jaeger

This is not a healthy discussion.  We have people claiming that they
can't live without C-A-B, yet they're unable to come up with any
*concrete* situations where they need it.  I don't doubt that these
issues exist, but my guess is that in most of those cases, C-A-B is the
wrong way to go about it.  To make any progress here, we need more data,
it's as simple as that.  Otherwise it's impossible to make any sort of
generalizations as to why these situations happen.  For example, if it
turned out that most of those lock-ups are due to grabs gone awry, it
wouldn't be top difficult to implement and advertise a Release-All-Grabs
key, that would take care of the issue without the need for killing X.

Mike Jones wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 
 I'm one of those users who would prefer that the C-A-B command be left
 as it is, or be modified to allow the ability through some other interface:
 such as twice successive.
 
 I have filed several bug reports about issues related to problems with
 X, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/289898 for example.
This is a kernel bug.  I would be very surprised if C-A-B worked here.

 snipNo.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs as
 long
 as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.
 /snip
 
  People do file bugs. Perhaps not everyone, and perhaps not every time.
Well, then it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a few bug
reports to give others an idea of what's going on here.

 But the problem is still going to be there for that person from when they
 originally filed the bug until the problem has been tracked down, until a
 fix has been written, until its been tested to not break anything, until its
 been patched to the package, until the package as been released, and finally
 the package has been downloaded (and in the case of things like the kernal,
 and graphics support) until the computer (or X) has been restarted.
This is why we need to figure out if there's some sort of pattern behind
the problems people are seeing.

 Once I submit a bug report about this issue, Can you give me a guarentee
 that I will have an update sitting on my system within an amount of time
 that make it reasonable to not have C-A-B immediately available to me?
If you really think you need it, it's really not that hard to enable it.
 Most people won't need it, so why should it be enabled by default?

By the way, nobody will guarantee you anything unless you're willing to
pay money.


 Realistically, C-A-B is useful to the points that I personally feel it
 to be necessary to my computing on a day to day basis.
Then enable it.  Most people would probably call such a system unusable
either way.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

Every program that hangs but doesn't release grabs is a problem. You
could certainly implement some kind of solution to that, but only
after that solution is implemented, C-A-B or equivalents should be
disabled. Not before.

Every program that makes the system so slow that it becomes unusable
is a problem. This can't be solved. Any buggy program can take so much
CPU/RAM/IO that your mouse pointer moves only every 10 seconds and
your key presses only register after that same time. Only a simple key
press that kills the program can solve this. Or a hard reset. We
shouldn't remove the reset button functionality either.

This means that C-A-B or equivalents can never be disabled.

Concrete examples: Windows games run in Wine. Some will leak memory or
whatever. You can't file bug reports against those games. And even if
you could, you would still experience the problem until it was solved.

Remco

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-12 Thread Mackenzie Morgan

On Thu, 2009-02-12 at 22:41 +0100, Remco wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mike Jones eternal...@gmail.com wrote:
  In light of that new info, I would say all of my objections are handled
  quite nicely by Alt-Sysrq-k.
 
 I haven't tried it out yet, but I agree that this new A-S-K
 combination would be a good replacement. Now we only need to teach
 everybody about this. C-A-B was common knowledge.

Except when you don't have a SysRq key.

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:37 PM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, 2009-02-12 at 22:41 +0100, Remco wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Mike Jones eternal...@gmail.com wrote:
      In light of that new info, I would say all of my objections are handled
  quite nicely by Alt-Sysrq-k.

 I haven't tried it out yet, but I agree that this new A-S-K
 combination would be a good replacement. Now we only need to teach
 everybody about this. C-A-B was common knowledge.

 Except when you don't have a SysRq key.

Craig Maloney mentioned off-list that Macs don't have a SysRQ key. F13
doesn't seem to work as an alternative either. So we're back at C-A-B.

Remco

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread John Moser

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:
 This is not a healthy discussion.  We have people claiming that they
 can't live without C-A-B, yet they're unable to come up with any
 *concrete* situations where they need it.  I don't doubt that these
 issues exist, but my guess is that in most of those cases, C-A-B is the
 wrong way to go about it.  To make any progress here, we need more data,
 it's as simple as that.  Otherwise it's impossible to make any sort of
 generalizations as to why these situations happen.  For example, if it
 turned out that most of those lock-ups are due to grabs gone awry, it
 wouldn't be top difficult to implement and advertise a Release-All-Grabs
 key, that would take care of the issue without the need for killing X.


I have a solution for you:  X is still alive enough to catch C-A-B,
have it request a core dump from the kernel.  A vmem dump and
vregister dump would also be helpful but we can't reliably enter video
memory or play with video registers without triggering a
hardware-state issue and locking on a request to said hardware.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Thomas Jaeger

Remco wrote:
 Every program that hangs but doesn't release grabs is a problem. You
 could certainly implement some kind of solution to that, but only
 after that solution is implemented, C-A-B or equivalents should be
 disabled. Not before.
I know that this is possible, but the question is how common this
situation is.

 Every program that makes the system so slow that it becomes unusable
 is a problem. This can't be solved. Any buggy program can take so much
 CPU/RAM/IO that your mouse pointer moves only every 10 seconds and
 your key presses only register after that same time. Only a simple key
 press that kills the program can solve this. Or a hard reset. We
 shouldn't remove the reset button functionality either.
If an application is hogging resources, you'll want to kill that
application, not X.

 This means that C-A-B or equivalents can never be disabled.
I think should be pretty clear by now that they can :)

 Concrete examples: Windows games run in Wine. Some will leak memory or
 whatever. You can't file bug reports against those games. And even if
 you could, you would still experience the problem until it was solved.
Okay, now we're getting closer.  There's no reason you can't make wine
handle those situations more gracefully.  But really, if you're doing
highly experimental things like running windows games in wine, it's not
unreasonable to expect that you do the tiny amount of extra of work if
you want enable C-A-B.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Dotan Cohen

 This is not a healthy discussion.  We have people claiming that they
 can't live without C-A-B, yet they're unable to come up with any
 *concrete* situations where they need it.

Compiz always crashes on me, and I need CAB to get back to something.
Yes, it is a workaround because of another bug, but at least I have
that workaround.

Similarly, 3-D apps such as Google Earth and Stellarium often lock up
on my system (for the past three Ubuntu versions) and I need to CAB at
that time as well.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:
 I know that this is possible, but the question is how common this
 situation is.

Apparently it's pretty common, as some people use C-A-B every week. I
don't use it quite that much, but I don't want it to go away. You
don't remove a fail-safe until you solve the problem that the
fail-safe works around, if that is even possible.

 If an application is hogging resources, you'll want to kill that
 application, not X.

That's true, but how are you going to tell your computer to kill one
specific program if it will take you more time to specify it than to
just hit the (also unnecessary?) reset button on your pc and wait for
a reboot. It could take hours of hitting keys and waiting for the
screen to be updated.

 Okay, now we're getting closer.  There's no reason you can't make wine
 handle those situations more gracefully.  But really, if you're doing
 highly experimental things like running windows games in wine, it's not
 unreasonable to expect that you do the tiny amount of extra of work if
 you want enable C-A-B.

Experimental or not, according to popcon about half of the Ubuntu
users runs Wine. And how is Wine going to protect against system
overload if Linux can't do it either? Technically nothing is wrong...
it's just a *little* slow.

Other example: running whatever OS, doing *something* in an emulator
such as Qemu or Vbox. Suddenly you're out of RAM, out of swap space,
your disk IO is through the roof, and your CPU is constantly 100%.

There are so many ways to bring down the performance of your computer
that you just can't prevent it.

Remco

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Mike Jones

 snipNo.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs
as
 long
 as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.
 /snip

  People do file bugs. Perhaps not everyone, and perhaps not every
time.
Well, then it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a few bug
reports to give others an idea of what's going on here.


You are right, it is not difficult to come up with a few bug reports.
What would you suggest I do to continue with my business in the case X needs
to be restarted without forcing my to shut down my system while the bug
report is being triaged?
If a bug happens once, it is possible for it to happen again (else, how is
debugging possible?), what if this same bug happens to be a second time? I
am still waiting for the bug to be debugged, yet have no quick way to get
back to work in the mean time.
It is unreasonable to expect even users who have programing experience to
use the terminal for honestly much more than occasional scripts. I have
absolutely no desire to C-A-F#, find the program that is giving me fits, and
then kill it in the hopes it fixes my issue.


 I'm one of those users who would prefer that the C-A-B command be left
 as it is, or be modified to allow the ability through some other
interface:
 such as twice successive.

 I have filed several bug reports about issues related to problems with
 X, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/289898 for example.
This is a kernel bug.  I would be very surprised if C-A-B worked here.


C-A-B does not work in that instance, you are correct. But since you seem to
know so much about it, could you please provide a fix for me? I have been
unable to figure out anything beyond what I reported already. It happens
regularly to myself and all members of my universities LUG who have the same
model laptop as myself. To be frank, it is quite annoying, regardless of
C-A-B or not. However, while that was a poor example, it is the first one I
thought of. I can create several new bug reports for x-crashes or glitches
that I don't feel confident in reporting just yet do to lack of information
on my part, if you would like. The bugs I would report happen haphazardly
enough that I can't predict their cause yet, and I am able to deal with
these problems (in most cases) by simply brute-force hacking the problem
away via calling C-A-B to get back to what I was doing as quickly as
possible. The problem may exist in any of the programs that I'm currently
using, or may be unrelated to all of them and a problem with any of the
hardware devices I have. I don't know how to reproduce any of the issues
with reliability, but I would be happy to report the problems for you.

 But the problem is still going to be there for that person from when they
 originally filed the bug until the problem has been tracked down, until a
 fix has been written, until its been tested to not break anything, until
its
 been patched to the package, until the package as been released, and
finally
 the package has been downloaded (and in the case of things like the
kernal,
 and graphics support) until the computer (or X) has been restarted.
This is why we need to figure out if there's some sort of pattern behind
the problems people are seeing.

I agree with John Moser. Allow the user to go back to work, and
automatically file a bug report using the apport interface. I assume thats
why apport exists, to catch crashes and report them when possible.
Otherwise... why does it pop up on my screen whenever a program crashes..?


 Once I submit a bug report about this issue, Can you give me a
guarentee
 that I will have an update sitting on my system within an amount of time
 that make it reasonable to not have C-A-B immediately available to me?
If you really think you need it, it's really not that hard to enable it.
 Most people won't need it, so why should it be enabled by default?

By the way, nobody will guarantee you anything unless you're willing to
pay money.


I'm not willing to pay money, as I have none. However, that was not the
reason I said that. My (potentially incorrect) impression is that you assume
users who use Ubuntu are responsible for submitting bug reports when they
encounter broken functionality or instability. In many cases, C-A-B is a
work around for bugs that otherwise have no currently implimented fix. In
the case of the issues I reported above, I am well aware that volunteers
don't normally volunteer for issues that they are not concerned about. My
problems are not necessarially the problems of the Ubuntu Dev's. Having
C-A-B allows me to go on with my day without needing to bother them.

Yes, I can change my configuration files to bring the functionality back
after it is disabled, but my grandfather cannot. Nor can my mother, nor can
many of the friends who I have installed Ubuntu for. Yes, I can personally
help them change the behavior, but that is not the case for everyone. Some
people use Ubuntu because it is free of

Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Charlie Kravetz

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:16:02 -0500
Mike Jones eternal...@gmail.com wrote:

  snipNo.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those
  bugs
 as
  long
  as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by
  default. /snip
 
   People do file bugs. Perhaps not everyone, and perhaps not
  every
 time.
 Well, then it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a few bug
 reports to give others an idea of what's going on here.
 
 
 You are right, it is not difficult to come up with a few bug reports.
 What would you suggest I do to continue with my business in the case
 X needs to be restarted without forcing my to shut down my system
 while the bug report is being triaged?
 If a bug happens once, it is possible for it to happen again (else,
 how is debugging possible?), what if this same bug happens to be a
 second time? I am still waiting for the bug to be debugged, yet have
 no quick way to get back to work in the mean time.
 It is unreasonable to expect even users who have programing
 experience to use the terminal for honestly much more than occasional
 scripts. I have absolutely no desire to C-A-F#, find the program that
 is giving me fits, and then kill it in the hopes it fixes my issue.
 
 
  I'm one of those users who would prefer that the C-A-B command
  be left as it is, or be modified to allow the ability through some
  other
 interface:
  such as twice successive.
 
  I have filed several bug reports about issues related to
  problems with X, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/289898 for example.
 This is a kernel bug.  I would be very surprised if C-A-B worked here.
 
 
 C-A-B does not work in that instance, you are correct. But since you
 seem to know so much about it, could you please provide a fix for me?
 I have been unable to figure out anything beyond what I reported
 already. It happens regularly to myself and all members of my
 universities LUG who have the same model laptop as myself. To be
 frank, it is quite annoying, regardless of C-A-B or not. However,
 while that was a poor example, it is the first one I thought of. I
 can create several new bug reports for x-crashes or glitches that I
 don't feel confident in reporting just yet do to lack of information
 on my part, if you would like. The bugs I would report happen
 haphazardly enough that I can't predict their cause yet, and I am
 able to deal with these problems (in most cases) by simply
 brute-force hacking the problem away via calling C-A-B to get back to
 what I was doing as quickly as possible. The problem may exist in any
 of the programs that I'm currently using, or may be unrelated to all
 of them and a problem with any of the hardware devices I have. I
 don't know how to reproduce any of the issues with reliability, but I
 would be happy to report the problems for you.
 
  But the problem is still going to be there for that person from
  when they originally filed the bug until the problem has been
  tracked down, until a fix has been written, until its been tested
  to not break anything, until
 its
  been patched to the package, until the package as been released, and
 finally
  the package has been downloaded (and in the case of things like the
 kernal,
  and graphics support) until the computer (or X) has been restarted.
 This is why we need to figure out if there's some sort of pattern
 behind the problems people are seeing.
 
 I agree with John Moser. Allow the user to go back to work, and
 automatically file a bug report using the apport interface. I assume
 thats why apport exists, to catch crashes and report them when
 possible. Otherwise... why does it pop up on my screen whenever a
 program crashes..?
 
 
  Once I submit a bug report about this issue, Can you give me a
 guarentee
  that I will have an update sitting on my system within an amount of
  time that make it reasonable to not have C-A-B immediately
  available to me?
 If you really think you need it, it's really not that hard to enable
 it. Most people won't need it, so why should it be enabled by default?
 
 By the way, nobody will guarantee you anything unless you're willing
 to pay money.
 
 
 I'm not willing to pay money, as I have none. However, that was not
 the reason I said that. My (potentially incorrect) impression is that
 you assume users who use Ubuntu are responsible for submitting bug
 reports when they encounter broken functionality or instability. In
 many cases, C-A-B is a work around for bugs that otherwise have no
 currently implimented fix. In the case of the issues I reported
 above, I am well aware that volunteers don't normally volunteer for
 issues that they are not concerned about. My problems are not
 necessarially the problems of the Ubuntu Dev's. Having C-A-B allows
 me to go on with my day without needing to bother them.
 
 Yes, I can change my configuration files to bring the
 functionality back after it is disabled, but my grandfather cannot.
 Nor can my mother, nor can many of the

Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread John Moser

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Charlie Kravetz
c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote:
 Okay, I have been reading this thread from the beginning. It seems like
 those making the most noise are the same individuals with the knowledge
 and ability to easily add the ability to use C-A-B back. Why should the
 thousands who do not need the ability be forced to have it to make it
 easier for the few that want it to be able to use it?

 Do you not customize your systems? This is just a very quick fix to
 re-enable the keypresses for yourselves. The many thousands who could
 care less are not even on the mailing list.


I actually removed zap myself ages ago due to randomly hitting it.  My
big problem is when I kill X I have 50 windows open and lose a LOT of
work.  It's disruptive.  I lose IRC, I lose the 10 tabs I have open in
firefox.  If you could make pidgin, xchat-gnome, and Firefox actually
restore properly (read:  Firefox RELOADS the tab it was in, it doesn't
come back up into the exact same state it shut down in!  This sucks!),
that would solve a large part of the problem for me.  Say, pidgin
crash-recovers by loading up all the same tabs with the same content
they had; xchat-gnome loads the same channels, queries, servers, with
the backlog all in place, and then complains it was disconnected and
reconnects for you.  That right there would make this whole thing far
less painless for me.

The big, unsolvable problem here for me is anything opened in a
terminal necessarily gets lost in a reboot.  In an X restart, it's on
me to use screen to save myself.  It's STILL worth more to me to NOT
accidentally zap X than it is to have to force a reboot when I could
have recovered.  Firefox, gaim, and xchat-gnome are annoying; with
openoffice and thunderbird, I recover documents and e-mail drafts
anyway; but with the terminal I can actually lose work.  I was zapping
by accident more often than on purpose so out it went.

This is precisely why I've been pushing for something that would TRY
to ask the user for confirmation, and give up if the client died or
got no response.  At least an ACCIDENTAL C-A-B would be abortable by
me.  The REAL solution is, yes, to fix the misbehaving programs (X or
otherwise); everyone has their own little list of programs that don't
recover from sudden X server kill to their liking, and I'm sure
they're all different from mine.

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

2009-02-12 Thread Onno Benschop

On 13/02/09 10:41, Charlie Kravetz wrote:
 Okay, I have been reading this thread from the beginning. It seems like
 those making the most noise are the same individuals with the knowledge
 and ability to easily add the ability to use C-A-B back. Why should the
 thousands who do not need the ability be forced to have it to make it
 easier for the few that want it to be able to use it? 

 Do you not customize your systems? This is just a very quick fix to
 re-enable the keypresses for yourselves. The many thousands who could
 care less are not even on the mailing list.
   

Have we got actual evidence that the thousands who do not need the
ability actually have a problem with C-A-B, or are we having this
debate just because there are a few who *think* there is a problem?

Just because it can happen, doesn't mean that it does - or have we just
received a spate of bug reports from users who lost data when they
pressed C-A-B?

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

And please don't talk about people making noise. That gets us nowhere.

Remco

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote:
 And please don't talk about people making noise. That gets us nowhere.

 Remco


That was not supposed to be the only contents of my mail.

The people who are against the removal of C-A-B or equivalents think
that Ubuntu would be better in general if such a functionality
existed. So it does not make sense to tell those participants to the
discussion to just change the option for themselves. It is about the
defaults here. Many many more users than the followers of this list
know about C-A-B. It has worked like this for years. If it suddenly
doesn't work anymore, they will probably think that the computer
locked up so bad that they have to reboot. If they ever learn that
Ubuntu decided to get rid of it, they will probably complain. Or
not... not everybody complains about their problems. In this respect,
hitting C-A-B twice seems the only sensible solution, as Mackenzie
pointed out. Another key binding would also be possible, but slightly
less intuitive.

Remco

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[Prototype] Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-11 Thread John McCabe-Dansted

On 2/11/09, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote:
 It's 9 days until feature freeze, so if you want it different I suggest
 sending patches.

Below is a prototype that I mocked up in half an hour; it gives a 10
second countdown. It would seem that something usable in 8 days is a
possibility if someone familiar with Ubuntu and X wants to

1) Approve the idea, perhaps with additional requirements. Does anyone
have objections to the user-interface of this script?

2) Set Cntl-Alt-Backspace to be a keyboard shortcut for this script.
Would setting this in Gnome/KDE/Xfce suffice? Or would these be likely
to be not working when we need them? My X crashes usually occur after
Gnome has loaded and I have started doing heavy 3D work.

3) Give the script some way to kill X. Perhaps add the following line
to the default sudoers:
   %plugdev ALL=NOPASSWD: killall Xorg

Although this was intended as a prototype, using zenity seems OK.
However wmctrl does not seem to be in
  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/jaunty/alpha-4/jaunty-desktop-i386.manifest
Is there an alternative way of raising a window to the foreground?

--

#!/bin/bash
# Script to kill X, but give user 10 seconds to cancel


# NOTE: Add keyboard shortcut so this is run when Ctrl-Alt-Del is run.
# NOTE: Allow logged in user to run sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart or
#   sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart without a password

TITLE=Really Restart X Server?
TEXT=You pressed Ctrl-Alt-Backspace.
This is an emergency sequence to restart a frozen computer.
If you do not want to lose your unsaved data click Cancel NOW!

which zenity || echo zenity missing, run sudo apt-get install zenity
which wmctrl || echo wmctrl missing, run sudo apt-get install wmctrl

i=0
while [ $i -le 100 ]
do
echo $i
sleep 0.1
wmctrl -R $TITLE #raise window
i=$(($i+1))
done | (
zenity --progress --title=$TITLE --text=$TEXT --auto-close 
echo TESTONLY sudo killall Xorg
#echo TESTONLY /etc/init.d/gdm restart
)

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

habtool wrote:

More chats about it here:

http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2009/01/since-we-all-know-x-is-nowhere-near.html

I think it's quite telling that the people that have accepted X Server
freezes as a fact of life could point to a single bug report where such
an issue was discussed. This, of course, leaves us completely in the
dark as to what the real issues are, but in any case, C-A-B is not the
solution. It's very simple actually: If your X Server does weird stuff
like that, that's not normal (seriously, don't tell anyone it is,
because it isn't). *File a bug report*. People are generally very
interested in fixes those.

Let's speculate a little bit what kind of issues these people are
seeing. If it was bugs the drivers, C-A-B probably wouldn't do
anything. I very much doubt that these are bugs in the actual X server,
because then everybody would be affected. So that leaves as the most
likely candidate client applications that run amok and don't release a
server/pointer/keyboard grab. If that's the case, nothing is lost yet
and you can switch to a terminal or ssh into your machine and kill the
offending application to get your X Server back to normal. Then file a
bug report and get the application fixed. I seem to remember something
about a release-all-grabs key, which would make it much easier to get
things back to normal, but I can't find anything about it right now.

Tom

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-11 Thread Remco

Client applications, and even X.org itself, will always have bugs.
They are created by humans, and we are not perfect. In that respect,
it is normal behaviour. So C-A-B will never become obsolete.

Things that can happen:

* Client can grab keys but hang.
* System can become too slow to be usable.
* Xorg/drivers can have a bug that locks the screen.

All of these things will happen in the future, no matter what you do.
C-A-B will fix it in many cases. Hitting C-A-B twice is preferred over
a dialog, because you can't reasonably react to a dialog if the system
is too slow to be usable.

Remco

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

I can't really take these blanket statements seriously if you can't
point me to specific bug reports, sorry.

Remco wrote:
 Client applications, and even X.org itself, will always have bugs.
 They are created by humans, and we are not perfect. In that respect,
 it is normal behaviour. So C-A-B will never become obsolete.
 
 Things that can happen:
 
 * Client can grab keys but hang.
In that case, you get the X Server back to normal by killing the client
and you should try and fix the client.

 * System can become too slow to be usable.
This is way too vague to make a useful argument.

 * Xorg/drivers can have a bug that locks the screen.
As I said before, I doubt C-A-B will help you there. Shift+SysRq+K
might, though.

 All of these things will happen in the future, no matter what you do.
 C-A-B will fix it in many cases. Hitting C-A-B twice is preferred over
 a dialog, because you can't reasonably react to a dialog if the system
 is too slow to be usable.

The only acceptable solution to me is fixing the underlying problems.
From what I'm gathering here, it seems like C-A-B is actually preventing
this from happening, so I'm more opposed to it than ever.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-11 Thread John Moser

On 2/12/09, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:


 Things that can happen:

 * Client can grab keys but hang.
 In that case, you get the X Server back to normal by killing the client
 and you should try and fix the client.

Killing the client actually prevents X from having any input; you lose
the input until you open a similar client (i.e. qemu) that regrabs,
then close it normally so it releases.


 * Xorg/drivers can have a bug that locks the screen.
 As I said before, I doubt C-A-B will help you there. Shift+SysRq+K
 might, though.

Happens occasionally.  Shouldn't.  It breaks X clients' ability to
talk to the screen, doesn't update the screen, so everything waiting
on X hangs; but X still picks up the C-A-B somehow and dies.

Computers will always do very strange thnigs, most of which don't make
sense and shouldn't happen.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-11 Thread John Moser



Thomas Jaeger wrote:
 John Moser wrote:
 On 2/12/09, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Things that can happen:

 * Client can grab keys but hang.
 In that case, you get the X Server back to normal by killing the client
 and you should try and fix the client.
 Killing the client actually prevents X from having any input; you lose
 the input until you open a similar client (i.e. qemu) that regrabs,
 then close it normally so it releases.
 
 This is not how grabs work.  If a client that has grabbed the
 Keyboard/Pointer/Server is killed all grabs are automatically released.
 

Try this when qemu freezes.  I've frequently had to C-A-F1, kill qemu, 
then alt-F7 back and ... wow, nothing works.  C-A-F1, DISPLAY=0:0 qemu, 
go back, hit a button, hit C-A to release grab, and close qemu.  Repeatably.

 * Xorg/drivers can have a bug that locks the screen.
 As I said before, I doubt C-A-B will help you there. Shift+SysRq+K
 might, though.
 Happens occasionally.  Shouldn't.  It breaks X clients' ability to
 talk to the screen, doesn't update the screen, so everything waiting
 on X hangs; but X still picks up the C-A-B somehow and dies.
 Bug report?
 
 Computers will always do very strange thnigs, most of which don't make
 sense and shouldn't happen.
 Those things can be fixed though.
 

Yes, exactly.  Just don't be surprised if someone says something happens 
that shouldn't.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

John Moser wrote:
 On 2/12/09, Thomas Jaeger thjae...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Things that can happen:

 * Client can grab keys but hang.
 In that case, you get the X Server back to normal by killing the client
 and you should try and fix the client.
 
 Killing the client actually prevents X from having any input; you lose
 the input until you open a similar client (i.e. qemu) that regrabs,
 then close it normally so it releases.

This is not how grabs work.  If a client that has grabbed the
Keyboard/Pointer/Server is killed all grabs are automatically released.

 * Xorg/drivers can have a bug that locks the screen.
 As I said before, I doubt C-A-B will help you there. Shift+SysRq+K
 might, though.
 
 Happens occasionally.  Shouldn't.  It breaks X clients' ability to
 talk to the screen, doesn't update the screen, so everything waiting
 on X hangs; but X still picks up the C-A-B somehow and dies.
Bug report?

 Computers will always do very strange thnigs, most of which don't make
 sense and shouldn't happen.
Those things can be fixed though.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

John Moser wrote:
 This is not how grabs work.  If a client that has grabbed the
 Keyboard/Pointer/Server is killed all grabs are automatically released.

 
 Try this when qemu freezes.  I've frequently had to C-A-F1, kill qemu,
 then alt-F7 back and ... wow, nothing works.  C-A-F1, DISPLAY=0:0 qemu,
 go back, hit a button, hit C-A to release grab, and close qemu. 
 Repeatably.

I don't know what qemu is nor what it does when it claims do a grab.
But regular X grabs behave the way I described above.  If they aren't
released when the connection closes chances are something else is going
on.  I know this is getting old, but you don't happen to have a link to
a bug report where this is discussed?

 Bug report?

 Computers will always do very strange thnigs, most of which don't make
 sense and shouldn't happen.
 Those things can be fixed though.

 
 Yes, exactly.  Just don't be surprised if someone says something happens
 that shouldn't.

No.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs as long
as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-11 Thread Peteris Krisjanis

 Yes, exactly.  Just don't be surprised if someone says something happens
 that shouldn't.

 No.  What surprises me is when people are fine with those bugs as long
 as there is a quick way to kill the X server that is enabled by default.


Because they want to do the work, not report bugs - usually.

Just my two cents,
Peter.

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Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Liam Zwitser

-- Forwarded message --
From: Liam Zwitser liamzwit...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Subject: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
To: ubuntu-de...@lists.ubuntu.com

Hello everyone,

In Jaunty alpha 3 you can´t use CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE to restart the X-server
anymore. I know that some users complained about restarting the X-server,
but I see a lot more, including yours truly, complaining about the fact that
the shortcut got disabled. I think it's a good idea to create a GUI to set
X-server options, but I assume that most people don´t want to have to
restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. It´s not windows, after all. What I
propose is that people who want to get rid of the shortcut can do so easily
via a simple GUI menu, but that it´s enabled by default.

Yours sincerely,

Liam Zwitser
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Clive Wagenaar

On Friday 16 January 2009 15:58:23 Liam Zwitser wrote:
 In Jaunty alpha 3 you can´t use CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE to restart the X-server
 anymore. I know that some users complained about restarting the X-server,
 but I see a lot more, including yours truly, complaining about the fact
 that the shortcut got disabled. I think it's a good idea to create a GUI to
 set X-server options, but I assume that most people don´t want to have to
 restart their pc when the GUI chrashes. It´s not windows, after all. What I
 propose is that people who want to get rid of the shortcut can do so easily
 via a simple GUI menu, but that it´s enabled by default.

I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it 
off. 

Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up:

alt f2
gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf

Section ServerFlags
Option DontZap no 
EndSection





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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Markus Hitter


Am 16.01.2009 um 16:58 schrieb Liam Zwitser:

 I assume that most people don´t want to have to
 restart their pc when the GUI chrashes.

I assume most people don't want their GUI to crash at all. That's a  
serious data loss each time, after all.

If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a  
good thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down  
a bug.


MarKus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Dylan McCall

 I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it
 off.

 Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up:

 alt f2
 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf

 Section ServerFlags
 Option DontZap no
 EndSection

The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't
mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are
trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that
xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how
to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any
extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those
millions of power-users do.

It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and
aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user
friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on
those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them
like outsiders.

It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done
once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but
the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a
moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session
saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed
or another application is handling the event. It just happens no
matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright
since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both
everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting
stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the
risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully
they can gain a trust of themselves and the system that way, start
paying more attention to the text on the screen and learning what it
all means. One thing I know is that a single catastrophic event like
tinkering led to the loss of two hour's work when I pressed Ctrl Alt
Backspace causes someone to doubt the value of that exploring. Then
there's another user reliant on others for resolving all issues
related to the computer.

Something interesting I've learned in an Ubuntu Forums thread is that
a surprising number of people who want this key combo to stay don't
actually use it for its intended purpose (to reset X when it is
crashed). Instead, they use it as a shortcut for logging out. Doing
that is risky, messy and inadequate.
Perhaps if logging out (with session saving) was mapped to Ctrl Alt
Backspace we wouldn't have as many bothered users.


Bye,
-Dylan

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Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Justin M. Wray


If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a good 
thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down a bug.

Come on, are you kidding me?  That attitude towards user-friendliness isn't 
going to help Ubuntu at all.  Sorry but a users X issues doesn't help Ubuntu.

CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is a standard for many people. Though it isn't something 
that would normally be used, but when needed saves a lot of time.

But get serious, having to reboot your system isn't going to increase bug 
reports for X crashes.  In fact I'd argue to say people will be less likely to 
file a bug report, due to the added time and aggravation of rebooting the 
system.

Point is, the ability to quickly and easily restart X is an invaluable feature. 
 It seems like a regression to remove such a standardized usage.
--Original Message--
From: Markus Hitter
Sender: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
To: Liam Zwitser
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
Sent: Feb 10, 2009 10:02


Am 16.01.2009 um 16:58 schrieb Liam Zwitser:

 I assume that most people don´t want to have to
 restart their pc when the GUI chrashes.

I assume most people don't want their GUI to crash at all. That's a  
serious data loss each time, after all.

If your X crashes from time to time that's unfortunate for you, but a  
good thing for Ubuntu as you get the chance to report and track down  
a bug.


MarKus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Justin M. Wray

Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a 
little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard.

Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system?

Where does the line get drawn?

The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when 
needed.

Sent via BlackBerry by ATT

-Original Message-
From: Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:02:51 
To: Clive Wagenaarclivewagen...@gmail.com
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?


 I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it
 off.

 Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up:

 alt f2
 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf

 Section ServerFlags
 Option DontZap no
 EndSection

The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't
mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are
trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that
xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how
to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any
extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those
millions of power-users do.

It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and
aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user
friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on
those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them
like outsiders.

It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done
once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but
the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a
moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session
saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed
or another application is handling the event. It just happens no
matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright
since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both
everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting
stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the
risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully
they can gain a trust of themselves and the system that way, start
paying more attention to the text on the screen and learning what it
all means. One thing I know is that a single catastrophic event like
tinkering led to the loss of two hour's work when I pressed Ctrl Alt
Backspace causes someone to doubt the value of that exploring. Then
there's another user reliant on others for resolving all issues
related to the computer.

Something interesting I've learned in an Ubuntu Forums thread is that
a surprising number of people who want this key combo to stay don't
actually use it for its intended purpose (to reset X when it is
crashed). Instead, they use it as a shortcut for logging out. Doing
that is risky, messy and inadequate.
Perhaps if logging out (with session saving) was mapped to Ctrl Alt
Backspace we wouldn't have as many bothered users.


Bye,
-Dylan

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Clive Wagenaar

On Tuesday 10 February 2009 15:57:02 Justin M. Wray wrote:
 Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a
 little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard.

 Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system?

 Where does the line get drawn?

 The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when
 needed.

I agree 100% ^^

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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Clive Wagenaar

On Tuesday 10 February 2009 15:02:51 Dylan McCall wrote:
 The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't
 mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are
 trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that
 xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how
 to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any
 extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those
 millions of power-users do.

Ok, i get your point from ubuntu being simple etc.
Not sure it will help them in the long run, as they will have to hard boot 
when xserver hangs and maybe never know that ctl alt backspace was ever a 
option
(It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also  
'dumbed down' too)

Like you say it is not a problem for the power users, just a small irritation.

I image that the developer of Ubuntu tweak program will just have one more 
thing to add to his program for jaunty :)

Stay Well

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clive wagenaar



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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread Nergar -blank-

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar clivewagen...@gmail.comwrote:


 (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc will all also
 'dumbed down' too)


Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled.

-- 
hacker != cracker
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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 17:42 -0600, Nergar -blank- wrote:
 
 
 On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar
 clivewagen...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc
 will all also
 'dumbed down' too)
 
 
 Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled.
 
 -- 
 hacker != cracker

It is already affecting fedora, came across this 'new feature' when
trying out F11 Alpha a few days back to test BTRFS..

Quote:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Alpha_release_notes#X_Server

X Server 
The key combination Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill the X server has been
disabled by default. To get this behaviour back, add the the line 

Option DontZap false

to the ServerFlags section in xorg.conf.

end quote


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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 17:42 -0600, Nergar -blank- wrote:
 
 
 On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:59, Clive Wagenaar
 clivewagen...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 (It is a pity this is from upstream where Arch, fedora etc
 will all also
 'dumbed down' too)
 
 
 Is this true? If it is, then C-A-B should be left disabled.
 
 -- 
 hacker != cracker

More chats about it here:

http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2009/01/since-we-all-know-x-is-nowhere-near.html



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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

2009-02-10 Thread John Moser

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Justin M. Wray
wray.justin.ubu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Even if a new user is unfamiliar with the key combination, it only takes a 
 little education OR them doing it once. Lessons are learned hard.


This is poorly conceived thinking, but switching it off is straight up
naive.  This is a power user tool and can accidently happen, and is
bad when accidents happen, so let's take it away.  Knee-jerk reaction
to dumb down the system.

The correct solution is not dead-simple to implement, but it works:
When you C-A-B, grab the whole screen and put up a confirmation dialog
like gksudo does.  You can't switch desktops off it (CAB happens
sometimes while swapping around virtual desktops and landing in a text
editor, trying to backspace over stuff), and it's right in your face.
It says In 10 seconds I will kill X and reload it.  This will destroy
all of your work.  Click the big red CANCEL button below now or hit
SPACE!

If the X server is frozen, the dialog can't be shown, can't be
clicked, can't be touched.  All you have to do is modify X to take an
option ZapProgram /usr/bin/uzapme which gets the $DISPLAY
environment passed to it.  uzapme reads the user's configuration,
executes a child gzapme or kazzapme and waits 10 seconds for the
child to return.  If the child doesn't exit favorably, i.e. complains
it can't draw on X or just hangs (because of no user input, or because
it tried to talk to X and got hung up), uzapme kills it and returns an
unfavorable state to X.  X then executes the ZAP code.

This works because it relies on X's zap code to be executed.  If CAB
can cause X to exit, then it can instead cause X to run a child
process and wait() for a result.  If doing such would inherently hang
and fail to terminate X under conditions of the child returning status
ESCREWTHISTERMINATEX then obviously X is so borked right now that
the zap code wouldn't have functioned anyway and you would have had to
unplug it and plug it back in.

 Should we remove all the abilities that may damage the system?


No, just throw up a single safety net.  For many unsafe operations
this is '-f', so on a real (not Fedora) system you 'rm -r /' and it
goes do you want to remove these files? because you probably did
something damaging; whereas you 'rm -rf /' and it goes oh, you know
what you doing, move zig.  If the user's dumb enough to use
'--force-all' or not click a button marked Press this or your
computer is effectively going to crash, it's now officially his
fault.

 Where does the line get drawn?


Usually in the sand, but sometimes on paper.  In HTML the line gets
drawn at an hr tag.

 The C-A-B is an easy thing to learn and avoid, but a powerful resource when 
 needed.


Same argument for magic sysrq keys... not for non-power-users, some
people just want the OS to get out of the way.

The REAL solution is to run everything through an X proxy that can
lose the X server head, like 'screen' for X.
 Sent via BlackBerry by ATT

 -Original Message-
 From: Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com

 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:02:51
 To: Clive Wagenaarclivewagen...@gmail.com
 Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
 Subject: Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?


 I agree with this guy, have it on by default, noobs can use GUI to switch it
 off.

 Else, millions of users will be doing this on first boot up:

 alt f2
 gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf

 Section ServerFlags
 Option DontZap no
 EndSection

 The important thing is that those millions of users actually don't
 mind tinkering with xorg.conf and probably do anyway. The users we are
 trying to help, however, Don't Know The Key Combo Exists, or that
 xorg.conf exists, or that they need to explicitly tell the system how
 to be easier to them, until it is too late. They don't want to do any
 extra configuration after installing the operating system. Those
 millions of power-users do.

 It astounds me how people just forget about Ubuntu's goals and
 aspiritions in light of this issue. It isn't doing much for user
 friendliness when the community of contributors is using bad names on
 those new users Ubuntu strives to be gentle to and then treating them
 like outsiders.

 It isn't /likely/ for someone to hit C-A-B (although it's been done
 once or twice by yours truly, particularly with graphics tools), but
 the immediate issue is that we have a key combination which, without a
 moment's question, eradicates one's session from existence. No session
 saving, no notice, no sensitivity to whether the keyboard is grabbed
 or another application is handling the event. It just happens no
 matter what. Further, it relies on common keys. Sysrq K is alright
 since nobody tends to use the Sys RQ key, but Ctrl and Alt are both
 everyday modifier keys and Backspace is a natural key for deleting
 stuff. We want our users to feel free exploring Ubuntu without the
 risk of wiping out the system (within reason, of course). Hopefully

Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?

On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 19:06 -0500, John Moser wrote:
 The correct solution is not dead-simple to implement, but it works:
 When you C-A-B, grab the whole screen and put up a confirmation dialog
 like gksudo does.  You can't switch desktops off it (CAB happens
 sometimes while swapping around virtual desktops and landing in a text
 editor, trying to backspace over stuff), and it's right in your face.
 It says In 10 seconds I will kill X and reload it.  This will destroy
 all of your work.  Click the big red CANCEL button below now or hit
 SPACE!

This is how I would say it should be done :)



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Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?