Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 01:27:52PM +0200, Gueven Bay wrote: No, this not an abstract thing. And no, there are not many free operating systems based on Ubuntu (SIC! because Ubuntu is basing on an operating system) : There is only one at this moment: Linux (or better GNU/Linux). With my proposal Ubuntu would get 3 other free operating systems under its project umbrella : FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenSolaris. I think we have a difference in terminology here. My terms, for purposes of this discussion: Linux - a free operating system kernel Ubuntu - a complete operating system based on Linux Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Guadalinex, MEPIS, Linspire, Nexenta, etc. - complete operating systems based on Ubuntu (derivatives), with various components added, removed or replaced (including the kernel) If you wanted to create an OpenSolaris-based Ubuntu, I don't see a reason to use anything other than an APT repository, in order to make use of all of the existing package management tools in Ubuntu. I don't know much about Blastwave, but from your descriptions it sounds like it is not compatible with APT. 1) Because introducing new package managers into the proposed operating systems would unnecessary work. Why do you think so? People have been using dpkg and apt on Solaris systems for years; this works just fine. 2) Because the developers of these package managers make already wonderful work. The package managers are tested, stable and functionally complete That is all the more reason to use them in derivatives, instead of something like Blastwave. An Ubuntu derivative which doesn't use the same package management tools would be much less true to the spirit of the system. 3) Because the users these operating systems have today know already their package managers and they are ready to give help for new users. They also know their shell and other UNIX utilities, their X server, their desktop...however, these things are not Ubuntu. So there is no need to translate the base systems of *BSD and OpSol to a dpkg structure. Just make the package managers and the archives more easily usable (just as Ubuntu did with Debian 'til today). Ubuntu inherited its package management infrastructure from Debian, and uses most of the same tools. They are entirely compatible in terms of the packaging interface. Here you are proposing something more concrete. Are you asking for space in the Ubuntu repositories to work on this? Would you then create such a distribution? I already asked for permission to start a 3rd party project thread in the ubuntuforums. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2007-April/000778.html My thinking was that if I get this permission then this thread would become the starting point for the metadistribution. But if it is even possible that I get space on the Ubuntu repos then I could begin with the practical work right away. So, the answer to your questions are : Yes and Yes ;-) If you are asking for resources, then you would need to propose your idea to the Community Council, who would need to be convinced that the project would become a reality. I think that would be premature at this stage, however. In order to use the Ubuntu trademark in your project, you would need to obtain permission first. My suggestion to you would be to follow a procedure something like this: 1. Refine your idea so that it can be explained in clear technical terms to others 2. Create a proof of concept or prototype, using a name of your own invention, which others can try 3. Apply for an official team and trademark status -- - mdz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 08:13:13AM +0200, Gueven Bay wrote: So what is it that you are proposing specifically? What I want is to combine the worlds of several free operating systems with the philosophy of Ubuntu: ease of use, shiny new releases every eye blink , cool community, business awareness but - with the combination of several operating systems under Ubuntu - the _full_ choice the free software world gives. You are proposing something very abstract, which I could interpret as something which already exists. There are already many free operating systems based on Ubuntu, and the system has been architected so as to make it easier to create more. Let me specify this - with the things I wrote above in mind- in the example of Ubuntu/OpenSolaris: The original OpenSolaris with its libs and docus and userland (in the OpenSolaris world these are called consolidations) + The packages to get all the functionality of a Ubuntu Release (CD/DVD) from the Blastwave repository (this is a repo which gives the Solaris user an apt-get like structure. If you wanted to create an OpenSolaris-based Ubuntu, I don't see a reason to use anything other than an APT repository, in order to make use of all of the existing package management tools in Ubuntu. I don't know much about Blastwave, but from your descriptions it sounds like it is not compatible with APT. + The Ubuntu specific programs and packages ported to OpenSolaris (for example the installer, the update notifier but also the Gnome adaptations of Ubuntu). Please have in mind here that the OpenSolaris world stays as it is and it is known to the user (with some very little adaptations). This all combined in the Ubuntu repositories , with the apropriate user mailing lists and forums, tested for half year release as Ubuntu/GNU/Linux is tested and released every six months. Here you are proposing something more concrete. Are you asking for space in the Ubuntu repositories to work on this? Would you then create such a distribution? -- - mdz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
Gueven Bay wrote: Hello again , On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 08:13:13AM +0200, Gueven Bay wrote: So what is it that you are proposing specifically? What I want is to combine the worlds of several free operating systems with the philosophy of Ubuntu: ease of use, shiny new releases every eye blink , cool community, business awareness but - with the combination of several operating systems under Ubuntu - the _full_ choice the free software world gives. You are proposing something very abstract, which I could interpret as something which already exists. There are already many free operating systems based on Ubuntu, and the system has been architected so as to make it easier to create more. No, this not an abstract thing. And no, there are not many free operating systems based on Ubuntu (SIC! because Ubuntu is basing on an operating system) : These are not mutually exclusive facts; as it happens, they are both true. I happen to agree with Matt that your original description was quite vague; it's nothing to get defensive about: just refine your precision. There is only one at this moment: Linux (or better GNU/Linux). Matt has already demonstrated, with the concrete example of the existing OpenSolaris derivative. AFAICT, that derivative has nothing Linux about it (why would it?)—though I'm sure it has much GNU about it. In fact, NexentaOS would probably be a great starting point for you to look into accomplishing what you want (for OpenSolaris): http://www.gnusolaris.org/, though AFAICT they use only the Debian packaging system (they only wanted the kernel from OpenSolaris). + The Ubuntu specific programs and packages ported to OpenSolaris (for example the installer, the update notifier but also the Gnome adaptations of Ubuntu). Please have in mind here that the OpenSolaris world stays as it is and it is known to the user (with some very little adaptations). It sounds to me, that I would not call what you are calling an OpenSolaris Ubuntu derivative or metadistribution at all; it sounds more like: port the things that you like in Ubuntu to some other distributions, which sounds like a wonderful idea. I believe that it is one of our goals (in the CoC, in fact) to contribute, as much as possible, our improvements back to the FLOSS community at large, and work may already have begun for some of these things. I believe, though, that in order to accomplish this, you'll probably need to work with the respective portee operating systems somewhat more closely than with the Ubuntu developers (other than as a knowledge-base of information regarding the packages being ported). I'm at a loss as to what you expect a metadistribution to be, though. The software, obviously, has already been written, and AFAICT most of it is quite portable. The only thing that needs changing, to do as you seem to desire, is to strip the Ubuntization from it (aside from packaging, it'd be inappropriate to include such things as the patches we add to make things look for /usr/bin/x-www-browser, etc), and add the packaging stuffs for the other Operating Systems, and anything else necessary to integrate it properly with the destination OS. I'm at a loss as to how to generalize such a thing, as the requisite changes are going to differ very substantially, from target to target. -- Micah J. Cowan Programmer, musician, typesetting enthusiast, gamer... http://micah.cowan.name/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
What you are describing is not an Ubuntu derivative at all. You are describing creating your own user friendly derivatives of different OSes. That's great, but it's not Ubuntu. -- William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Evil Bash script for today: while true; do fortune | write (myenemy); sleep 2; done -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
Your description roughly matches the way that Ubuntu is already structured. Yes, it matches the way Ubuntu is structured. But - as you know - Ubuntu is GNU/Linux today. The first new proposal of me was to get other free operating systems under Ubuntu's project. That is, I don't see any work to be done on the core OS in order to enable the development of the derivatives you describe. You are very right. For the core Ubuntu as it is today you don't have any work to be done. The only work to be done if Ubuntu Metadistribution is going to be reality is to include the other OSes step for step into the Ubuntu structure (repository, live cds and so on). There is already a derivative of Ubuntu using the OpenSolaris kernel, for example. Thank you very much for bringing this distribution into discussion. As cool as Nexenta - the Ubuntu OpenSolaris mix disro - is it has in my eyes one flaw: It mixes two worlds - the world of (Open)Solaris and GNU/Linux- on a very low level : It uses the kernel of on OS (Solaris) and uses the (low level) libraries and userland of another (GNU/Linux). This mix is not good. For one: The low level libs of GNU and also the userland is today developed with Linux in mind. But - staying in this example - (Open)Solaris has its own proven and tested libs and userland which the users of this operating system like and know. The mix on this level is - today at least - not good. For two: Users who want to use (Open)Solaris want the full (Open)Solaris experience (I hope you can see what I want to say here.) There are many who don't like the GNu userland for example. (For three: -As the Ubuntu folks come from Debian they would understand this - The mixing of libs and userland Nexenta does is not clean as the license questions are stil not solved today.) So what is it that you are proposing specifically? What I want is to combine the worlds of several free operating systems with the philosophy of Ubuntu: ease of use, shiny new releases every eye blink , cool community, business awareness but - with the combination of several operating systems under Ubuntu - the _full_ choice the free software world gives. Let me specify this - with the things I wrote above in mind- in the example of Ubuntu/OpenSolaris: The original OpenSolaris with its libs and docus and userland (in the OpenSolaris world these are called consolidations) + The packages to get all the functionality of a Ubuntu Release (CD/DVD) from the Blastwave repository (this is a repo which gives the Solaris user an apt-get like structure. + The Ubuntu specific programs and packages ported to OpenSolaris (for example the installer, the update notifier but also the Gnome adaptations of Ubuntu). Please have in mind here that the OpenSolaris world stays as it is and it is known to the user (with some very little adaptations). This all combined in the Ubuntu repositories , with the apropriate user mailing lists and forums, tested for half year release as Ubuntu/GNU/Linux is tested and released every six months. (Port this example to the other proposed operating systems FreeBSD, NetBSD). The end user gets a web-site, where he clicks and chooses the operating system he wants to test/learn/use, where he clicks and chooses the desktop environment and experience he wants under the chosen OS (Gnome,KDE,XFCE) where he clicks and chooses the kind of release he wants to download (CD/DVD, mybe USB sticks in the future). So in the end every one would get : the __full__ choice the world of free software gives the user but with the community support structure of Ubuntu today. I hope that my example made it clear what I proposed. Thank you for your questions. regards Gueven ___ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
Hi One thing to consider here is that the FOSS scene gets enough stick about fragmentation with the sheer number of distributions we already have. 4 official variations of Ubuntu is enough for me. You have to remember why Ubuntu works as well as it does in the first place - because canonical took a core set of software and decided to support it. By having lots of variations as you propose, it will make QA orders of magnitude more difficult. I think this proposal will have to wait until Ubuntu has grown into something much bigger and much more mature. While Ubuntu is indeed the flagship of it just works distros, I don't think it's quite at the level it needs to be before we can start diluting efforts. Cheers On Sat, 2007-04-21 at 08:13 +0200, Gueven Bay wrote: Your description roughly matches the way that Ubuntu is already structured. Yes, it matches the way Ubuntu is structured. But - as you know - Ubuntu is GNU/Linux today. The first new proposal of me was to get other free operating systems under Ubuntu's project. That is, I don't see any work to be done on the core OS in order to enable the development of the derivatives you describe. You are very right. For the core Ubuntu as it is today you don't have any work to be done. The only work to be done if Ubuntu Metadistribution is going to be reality is to include the other OSes step for step into the Ubuntu structure (repository, live cds and so on). There is already a derivative of Ubuntu using the OpenSolaris kernel, for example. Thank you very much for bringing this distribution into discussion. As cool as Nexenta - the Ubuntu OpenSolaris mix disro - is it has in my eyes one flaw: It mixes two worlds - the world of (Open)Solaris and GNU/Linux- on a very low level : It uses the kernel of on OS (Solaris) and uses the (low level) libraries and userland of another (GNU/Linux). This mix is not good. For one: The low level libs of GNU and also the userland is today developed with Linux in mind. But - staying in this example - (Open)Solaris has its own proven and tested libs and userland which the users of this operating system like and know. The mix on this level is - today at least - not good. For two: Users who want to use (Open)Solaris want the full (Open)Solaris experience (I hope you can see what I want to say here.) There are many who don't like the GNu userland for example. (For three: -As the Ubuntu folks come from Debian they would understand this - The mixing of libs and userland Nexenta does is not clean as the license questions are stil not solved today.) So what is it that you are proposing specifically? What I want is to combine the worlds of several free operating systems with the philosophy of Ubuntu: ease of use, shiny new releases every eye blink , cool community, business awareness but - with the combination of several operating systems under Ubuntu - the _full_ choice the free software world gives. Let me specify this - with the things I wrote above in mind- in the example of Ubuntu/OpenSolaris: The original OpenSolaris with its libs and docus and userland (in the OpenSolaris world these are called consolidations) + The packages to get all the functionality of a Ubuntu Release (CD/DVD) from the Blastwave repository (this is a repo which gives the Solaris user an apt-get like structure. + The Ubuntu specific programs and packages ported to OpenSolaris (for example the installer, the update notifier but also the Gnome adaptations of Ubuntu). Please have in mind here that the OpenSolaris world stays as it is and it is known to the user (with some very little adaptations). This all combined in the Ubuntu repositories , with the apropriate user mailing lists and forums, tested for half year release as Ubuntu/GNU/Linux is tested and released every six months. (Port this example to the other proposed operating systems FreeBSD, NetBSD). The end user gets a web-site, where he clicks and chooses the operating system he wants to test/learn/use, where he clicks and chooses the desktop environment and experience he wants under the chosen OS (Gnome,KDE,XFCE) where he clicks and chooses the kind of release he wants to download (CD/DVD, mybe USB sticks in the future). So in the end every one would get : the __full__ choice the world of free software gives the user but with the community support structure of Ubuntu today. I hope that my example made it clear what I proposed. Thank you for your questions. regards Gueven ___ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Alex Jones
Re: Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
snipped What I want is to combine the worlds of several free operating systems with the philosophy of Ubuntu: ease of use, shiny new releases every eye blink , cool community, business awareness but - with the combination of several operating systems under Ubuntu - the _full_ choice the free software world gives. Let me specify this - with the things I wrote above in mind- in the example of Ubuntu/OpenSolaris: The original OpenSolaris with its libs and docus and userland (in the OpenSolaris world these are called consolidations) + The packages to get all the functionality of a Ubuntu Release (CD/DVD) from the Blastwave repository (this is a repo which gives the Solaris user an apt-get like structure. + The Ubuntu specific programs and packages ported to OpenSolaris (for example the installer, the update notifier but also the Gnome adaptations of Ubuntu). Please have in mind here that the OpenSolaris world stays as it is and it is known to the user (with some very little adaptations). This all combined in the Ubuntu repositories , with the apropriate user mailing lists and forums, tested for half year release as Ubuntu/GNU/Linux is tested and released every six months. (Port this example to the other proposed operating systems FreeBSD, NetBSD). The end user gets a web-site, where he clicks and chooses the operating system he wants to test/learn/use, where he clicks and chooses the desktop environment and experience he wants under the chosen OS (Gnome,KDE,XFCE) where he clicks and chooses the kind of release he wants to download (CD/DVD, mybe USB sticks in the future). So in the end every one would get : the __full__ choice the world of free software gives the user but with the community support structure of Ubuntu today. I hope that my example made it clear what I proposed. Hi Gueven, Its an interesting concept, what you are suggesting is a kind of installer script which kicks off pulls software from different repositories spits a release at the end (similar perhaps to Garnome, Gentoo builds, a sort of script Mann2003 is supposedly to pull software from various repos http://ubuntusoftware.info/ultimate/ ) but while they have very specific environments in mind yours is much more larger. Issues right from licensing (every distro. is not under GPL license) (user agrees to each specific license seperately ? ) while downloading, to testing the scripts. Add to that the additional hardware platforms: AMD64, Alpha, i386, MIPS, 68000, PowerPC, Sparc, Sparc64, VAX, Zaurus its truly a manmoth exercise. AFAIK there is/was some talk of dropping official PowerPC support for Ubuntu although community support would be there. Further AFAIK there are only some 30 odd developers who are doing everything from building packages from source, to answering newbie, bug squashing etc. which does take a lotta time I guess. Thank you for your questions. regards Gueven Of course I'm just a user of the distro. so some things I might just get plain wrong. But that's how I see it. It's a great suggestion but is it a good time for doing something like that. I would guess it would have more success if its a community effort rather than the official. At some point if it becomes stable, more functional then there would be possibility of it being on the official list. You could also think of starting it on the ubuntuforums 3rd party project see the kind of response you get for the project. Who knows it might turn out to be the biggest thing since sliced bread. :) -- Shirish Agarwal This work is licensed under the Creative Commons NonCommercial Sampling Plus 1.0 License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/nc-sampling+/1.0/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Proposal: Ubuntu Metadistribution
Hello dear Ubuntu community, Here I want to propose the development of Ubuntu Metadistribution Motivation There is not only Linux as a free operating system. There are other free operating systems which have their own strength and advantages. The Ubuntu Metadistribution would combine the advantages, and also the communities and also the developers of the other operating systems under one umbrella. Last but not least the alternative free operating systems would also get much more publicity. The Structure The Ubuntu Metadistribution would have roughly this hierarchic structure: ** * X11 + Gnome system ** * Userland + Ubuntu special tools ** * Linux Base System * FreeBSD Base System * NetBSD Base System * OpenSolaris Base System ** And with Base System I mean the original base system of the respective operating system to catch the philosophy of the respective OS. So, the users would get at every release these systems: Ubuntu/Linux Desktop(as we know it) Ubuntu/FreeBSD Desktop Ubuntu/NetBSD Desktop Ubuntu/OpenSolaris Desktop Ubuntu/Linux Server(as we know it) Ubuntu/FreeBSD Server Ubuntu/NetBSD Server Ubuntu/OpenSolaris Server The Advantages The user could choose the operating system with the appropriate attribute and functionality for his use. For example someone could use Ubuntu/NetBSD Desktop for running Ubuntu on his old Amiga4000. Another could choose Ubuntu/OpenSolaris Server for his HP Server. And both would get the ease of use we know today from Ubuntu. As I wrote above the alternative free operating systems would get the big, wide attention of press as Ubuntu(and with it Linux) gets today. Then - as I think the strongest advantage - the developers of all these operating systems and also the various communities would get united at the Ubuntu sites. This would get a wonderful concentration of knowledge and experience in one point. What is your opinion about Ubuntu Metadistribution? regards Gueven ___ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
