Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Scott James Remnant]

On Mon, 2007-12-31 at 13:03 -0700, Neal McBurnett wrote:

> It is clear to me that we need at least one free, best-of-breed VOIP
> app shipping with Ubuntu.
> 
We currently ship Ekiga; our longer-term hopes are pinned on Telepathy
which would allow the actual use of different protocols like
SIP/Skype/etc. from the same frontend.

Scott
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Bryan Haskins]

Most Clients for X program just us UPnP these days, so most people are
understandably spoiled by it.

On Jan 2, 2008 12:02 PM, Fergal Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 02/01/2008, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Jan 2, 2008 6:23 AM, Fergal Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > If your setup is relatively straight-forward or you are able to open
> > > ports on your firewall then you don't have be SIP expert to get it
> > > working - I know nothing about SIP I got it to work by following the
> > > docs,
> > >
> >
> > I'm going to go ahead and lose all my geek points now.  I don't know how
> to
> > open ports on my router.  I certainly don't expect that any normal user
> > does.
>
> Then I'm not sure how you got any of the other SIP clients to work. As
> I understand it, unless the machine yon which you are running the SIP
> client has a publicly accessible IP address, you will not be able to
> use SIP unless you have a way to twiddle your router.
>
> The problem is that the voice data travels in UDP packets directly
> between you and the other person on the call. If you don't have a
> public IP address - say you are using NAT with a wireless router then
> the packets will arrive at your router and it will not know what to do
> with them - they could be for any of the machines on your wireless
> network.
>
> If you "open the port" (or rather "forward the port") on the router,
> you are telling your router, if any packets arrive on port number XYZ,
> send them to my computer. This will allow SIP to work for you and is
> independent of what SIP client you use.
>
> If one of you has a public IP address and the other a NATted one then
> if the NATted one startes sending the packets first, their router will
> see there is a conversation going on and allow the packets to flow.
>
> If both of you have NATted IP addresses then neither of you can start
> the conversation.
>
> With certain routers, there are tricks you can do to get around this
> but many many routers have no work around.
>
> Skype gets around this by sending your conversation through a 3rd
> computer out on the internet which has a publicly accessible IP
> address. All packets between the 2 chat clients go via this computer.
> So actually there are 2 UDP packet flows, which this 3rd computer
> joins together.
>
> You can also get around this if your router can run a SIP proxy.
>
> I'm curious if you got some other SIP client to work without problems.
> I had the same set of problems with twinkle as with ekiga,
>
> F
>
> >
> > --
> > Mackenzie Morgan
> > Linux User #432169
> > ACM Member #3445683
> > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of
> > Ubuntu stuff
> >  apt-get moo
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[George Farris]

On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 17:39 +1300, Jonathan Musther wrote:
> I've just been trying it for IM, you're right, it doesn't stand up -
> but it is better than Ekiga for VOIP stuf, or seems to be based on my
> early impressions.  I also agree with your assessment of pidgin.

I use Ekiga all the time with a few friends and it works great.



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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Fergal Daly]

On 02/01/2008, Emmet Hikory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 2008 2:02 AM, Fergal Daly wrote:
> > Then I'm not sure how you got any of the other SIP clients to work. As
> > I understand it, unless the machine yon which you are running the SIP
> > client has a publicly accessible IP address, you will not be able to
> > use SIP unless you have a way to twiddle your router.
>
> The other common option is to use STUN (1) supported by many
> consumer routers and VoIP clients.
>
> 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_traversal_of_UDP_over_NATs

I have never had any luck with STUN and I've been using linksys and
netgear routers which are pretty common but maybe I'm not doing it
right,

F

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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Emmet Hikory]

On Jan 3, 2008 2:02 AM, Fergal Daly wrote:
> Then I'm not sure how you got any of the other SIP clients to work. As
> I understand it, unless the machine yon which you are running the SIP
> client has a publicly accessible IP address, you will not be able to
> use SIP unless you have a way to twiddle your router.

The other common option is to use STUN (1) supported by many
consumer routers and VoIP clients.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_traversal_of_UDP_over_NATs

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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Fergal Daly]

On 02/01/2008, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 2008 6:23 AM, Fergal Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > If your setup is relatively straight-forward or you are able to open
> > ports on your firewall then you don't have be SIP expert to get it
> > working - I know nothing about SIP I got it to work by following the
> > docs,
> >
>
> I'm going to go ahead and lose all my geek points now.  I don't know how to
> open ports on my router.  I certainly don't expect that any normal user
> does.

Then I'm not sure how you got any of the other SIP clients to work. As
I understand it, unless the machine yon which you are running the SIP
client has a publicly accessible IP address, you will not be able to
use SIP unless you have a way to twiddle your router.

The problem is that the voice data travels in UDP packets directly
between you and the other person on the call. If you don't have a
public IP address - say you are using NAT with a wireless router then
the packets will arrive at your router and it will not know what to do
with them - they could be for any of the machines on your wireless
network.

If you "open the port" (or rather "forward the port") on the router,
you are telling your router, if any packets arrive on port number XYZ,
send them to my computer. This will allow SIP to work for you and is
independent of what SIP client you use.

If one of you has a public IP address and the other a NATted one then
if the NATted one startes sending the packets first, their router will
see there is a conversation going on and allow the packets to flow.

If both of you have NATted IP addresses then neither of you can start
the conversation.

With certain routers, there are tricks you can do to get around this
but many many routers have no work around.

Skype gets around this by sending your conversation through a 3rd
computer out on the internet which has a publicly accessible IP
address. All packets between the 2 chat clients go via this computer.
So actually there are 2 UDP packet flows, which this 3rd computer
joins together.

You can also get around this if your router can run a SIP proxy.

I'm curious if you got some other SIP client to work without problems.
I had the same set of problems with twinkle as with ekiga,

F

>
> --
> Mackenzie Morgan
> Linux User #432169
> ACM Member #3445683
> http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of
> Ubuntu stuff
>  apt-get moo

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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Jan 2, 2008 6:23 AM, Fergal Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If your setup is relatively straight-forward or you are able to open
> ports on your firewall then you don't have be SIP expert to get it
> working - I know nothing about SIP I got it to work by following the
> docs,
>

I'm going to go ahead and lose all my geek points now.  I don't know how to
open ports on my router.  I certainly don't expect that any normal user
does.

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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Kai Schroeder]

Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending
> VOIP, I don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga. 
> Wengo is a possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM
> protocols too so you can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber
> etc, which is nice. 
>
>
> I forgot about that.  For that matter, it could cover Ekiga & Gaim's 
> functionality in one app.
VOIP and IM will soon be covered by telepathy anyway, so I think for now 
we should just wait if empathy or some other telepathy based application 
can replace ekiga and pidgin.

--
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>
> -- 
> Mackenzie Morgan
> Linux User #432169
> ACM Member #3445683
> http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of Ubuntu stuff
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Fergal Daly]

On 02/01/2008, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending VOIP, I
> don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo is a
> possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so you
> can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.

Much as I don't really want to defend ekiga, I got it working and I
know others who did too (on Linux and Windows). I think it has plenty
of problems in terms of usability and useful diagnostics when things
aren't working (a problem with all of the SIP clients I tried) but it
does work.

If your setup is relatively straight-forward or you are able to open
ports on your firewall then you don't have be SIP expert to get it
working - I know nothing about SIP I got it to work by following the
docs,

F

>
> On Jan 2, 2008 12:05 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> it's used less often than a VOIP service.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know anybody that uses VOIP, but I know several people who use
> Quicken regularly to manage their personal finances. Again, the conclusion
> is that it depends on the type of user. Barring any definite usage
> statistics (which I don't think we have), we have a few choices. If the new
> compression format makes it into Hardy, we should have lots of room to add
> Gnucash and keep Ekiga. If other stuff (like the multiple themes that are
> apparently going to be in Hardy) needs more space, perhaps Ekiga should be
> first on the chopping block.
> >
> > If it does come down to a choice between the two, I think that Gnucash
> should make it in simply because even if Ekiga is installed by default, too
> many users will ignore it and install Skype. While this isn't good because
> Skype is closed, it is what most people are using. Ideally we'd include a
> multi-format client that can connect to Skype and to open channels (like
> Pidgin can connect to MSN, Yahoo, etc.) but as far as I know there isn't
> one.
> >
> > Evan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> > > I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> it's used less often than a VOIP service.
> > >
> > > And yes, the VOIP tool which is vastly more popular than any other is
> skype - but I don't think we should include it.  Ideally what we need to
> include is a skype-ish tool, something like wengo (I've not tried wengo).
> I've never had any success using ekiga, never.
> > >
> > > Of course the problem with migrating people from skype to other things
> is that they know people on skype.  It's like msn messenger, how many people
> are linux/FOSS users and use something like pidgin to access an msn account
> for instant messaging?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 1, 2008 5:09 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm just saying that it isn't used widely enough to be included in the
> cd. Certainly leave it in main, but I don't think voip in general is popular
> enough (yet) to include a client. A finance manager like Gnucash is much
> more likely to be used by the default user.
> > > >
> > > > Evan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > >
> > >
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Jonathan Musther]

I've just been trying it for IM, you're right, it doesn't stand up - but it
is better than Ekiga for VOIP stuf, or seems to be based on my early
impressions.  I also agree with your assessment of pidgin.

On Jan 2, 2008 5:33 PM, Bryan Quigley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wengophone has a dependency on qt4.   Might be doable with removal of
> Pidgin and Ekiga (or Mono).   I can't speak for Ekiga but it really doesn't
> appear to be able to stand up to replacing Pidgin.   Pidgin, to me anyway,
> is one of the applications that Free Software has delivered the best of
> breed package for.
> -Bryan
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 1, 2008 10:54 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I've not really tried it much yet, but for IM it seems to cover all the
> > basics - the same stuff as pidgin at least.  It's a little different, but it
> > seems ok, I'll endeavour to give it more of a test run.
> >
> >
> > On Jan 2, 2008 4:30 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending
> > > > VOIP, I don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo 
> > > > is a
> > > > possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so 
> > > > you
> > > > can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.
> > >
> > >
> > > I forgot about that.  For that matter, it could cover Ekiga & Gaim's
> > > functionality in one app.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mackenzie Morgan
> > > Linux User #432169
> > > ACM Member #3445683
> > > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of Ubuntu stuff
> > > apt-get moo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Slingshot - a unique game everyone enjoys  - and it's free :-)
> > http://www.slingshot-game.org
> >
> > --
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> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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> >
> >
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Bryan Quigley]

Wengophone has a dependency on qt4.   Might be doable with removal of Pidgin
and Ekiga (or Mono).   I can't speak for Ekiga but it really doesn't appear
to be able to stand up to replacing Pidgin.   Pidgin, to me anyway, is one
of the applications that Free Software has delivered the best of breed
package for.
-Bryan




On Jan 1, 2008 10:54 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've not really tried it much yet, but for IM it seems to cover all the
> basics - the same stuff as pidgin at least.  It's a little different, but it
> seems ok, I'll endeavour to give it more of a test run.
>
>
> On Jan 2, 2008 4:30 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending
> > > VOIP, I don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo is a
> > > possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so you
> > > can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.
> >
> >
> > I forgot about that.  For that matter, it could cover Ekiga & Gaim's
> > functionality in one app.
> >
> > --
> > Mackenzie Morgan
> > Linux User #432169
> > ACM Member #3445683
> > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of Ubuntu stuff
> > apt-get moo
>
>
>
>
> --
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> http://www.slingshot-game.org
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Jonathan Musther]

I've not really tried it much yet, but for IM it seems to cover all the
basics - the same stuff as pidgin at least.  It's a little different, but it
seems ok, I'll endeavour to give it more of a test run.

On Jan 2, 2008 4:30 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending VOIP,
> > I don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo is a
> > possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so you
> > can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.
>
>
> I forgot about that.  For that matter, it could cover Ekiga & Gaim's
> functionality in one app.
>
> --
> Mackenzie Morgan
> Linux User #432169
> ACM Member #3445683
> http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com <-my blog of Ubuntu stuff
> apt-get moo




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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Jan 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending VOIP, I
> don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo is a
> possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so you
> can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.


I forgot about that.  For that matter, it could cover Ekiga & Gaim's
functionality in one app.

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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Jonathan Musther]

I agree, we don't have any usage stats.  Although I was defending VOIP, I
don't know of anybody who has successfully used Ekiga.  Wengo is a
possibility (I've been trying it) and it supports IM protocols too so you
can use it for google talk, msn, aim, jabber etc, which is nice.

On Jan 2, 2008 12:05 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> > then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> > in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> > know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> > - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> > it's used less often than a VOIP service.
> >
>
> I don't know anybody that uses VOIP, but I know several people who use
> Quicken regularly to manage their personal finances. Again, the conclusion
> is that it depends on the type of user. Barring any definite usage
> statistics (which I don't think we have), we have a few choices. If the new
> compression format makes it into Hardy, we should have lots of room to add
> Gnucash and keep Ekiga. If other stuff (like the multiple themes that are
> apparently going to be in Hardy) needs more space, perhaps Ekiga should be
> first on the chopping block.
>
> If it does come down to a choice between the two, I think that Gnucash
> should make it in simply because even if Ekiga is installed by default, too
> many users will ignore it and install Skype. While this isn't good because
> Skype is closed, it is what most people are using. Ideally we'd include a
> multi-format client that can connect to Skype and to open channels (like
> Pidgin can connect to MSN, Yahoo, etc.) but as far as I know there isn't
> one.
>
> Evan
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> > then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> > in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> > know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> > - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> > it's used less often than a VOIP service.
> >
> > And yes, the VOIP tool which is vastly more popular than any other is
> > skype - but I don't think we should include it.  Ideally what we need to
> > include is a skype-ish tool, something like wengo (I've not tried wengo).
> > I've never had any success using ekiga, never.
> >
> > Of course the problem with migrating people from skype to other things
> > is that they know people on skype.  It's like msn messenger, how many people
> > are linux/FOSS users and use something like pidgin to access an msn account
> > for instant messaging?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 1, 2008 5:09 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >  I'm just saying that it isn't used widely enough to be included in
> > > the cd. Certainly leave it in main, but I don't think voip in general is
> > > popular enough (yet) to include a client. A finance manager like Gnucash 
> > > is
> > > much more likely to be used by the default user.
> > >
> > > Evan
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Evan]

On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> it's used less often than a VOIP service.
>

I don't know anybody that uses VOIP, but I know several people who use
Quicken regularly to manage their personal finances. Again, the conclusion
is that it depends on the type of user. Barring any definite usage
statistics (which I don't think we have), we have a few choices. If the new
compression format makes it into Hardy, we should have lots of room to add
Gnucash and keep Ekiga. If other stuff (like the multiple themes that are
apparently going to be in Hardy) needs more space, perhaps Ekiga should be
first on the chopping block.

If it does come down to a choice between the two, I think that Gnucash
should make it in simply because even if Ekiga is installed by default, too
many users will ignore it and install Skype. While this isn't good because
Skype is closed, it is what most people are using. Ideally we'd include a
multi-format client that can connect to Skype and to open channels (like
Pidgin can connect to MSN, Yahoo, etc.) but as far as I know there isn't
one.

Evan

On Dec 31, 2007 11:27 PM, Jonathan Musther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
> then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
> in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
> know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
> - again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
> it's used less often than a VOIP service.
>
> And yes, the VOIP tool which is vastly more popular than any other is
> skype - but I don't think we should include it.  Ideally what we need to
> include is a skype-ish tool, something like wengo (I've not tried wengo).
> I've never had any success using ekiga, never.
>
> Of course the problem with migrating people from skype to other things is
> that they know people on skype.  It's like msn messenger, how many people
> are linux/FOSS users and use something like pidgin to access an msn account
> for instant messaging?
>
>
>
> On Jan 1, 2008 5:09 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'm just saying that it isn't used widely enough to be included in the
> > cd. Certainly leave it in main, but I don't think voip in general is popular
> > enough (yet) to include a client. A finance manager like Gnucash is much
> > more likely to be used by the default user.
> >
> > Evan
> >
> >
> > --
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> > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Jonathan Musther]

I think it's used widely.  And if I think it is, and you think it isn't,
then sensible conclusion to draw is that in some circles it's used widely,
in others it's not. so overall it's used quite a bit.  I have to say I don't
know anybody (business owners aside) that uses a finance manager on their PC
- again, that doesn't mean it's not used, but certainly in my experience
it's used less often than a VOIP service.

And yes, the VOIP tool which is vastly more popular than any other is skype
- but I don't think we should include it.  Ideally what we need to include
is a skype-ish tool, something like wengo (I've not tried wengo).  I've
never had any success using ekiga, never.

Of course the problem with migrating people from skype to other things is
that they know people on skype.  It's like msn messenger, how many people
are linux/FOSS users and use something like pidgin to access an msn account
for instant messaging?



On Jan 1, 2008 5:09 PM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm just saying that it isn't used widely enough to be included in the cd.
> Certainly leave it in main, but I don't think voip in general is popular
> enough (yet) to include a client. A finance manager like Gnucash is much
> more likely to be used by the default user.
>
> Evan
>
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Evan]

I'm just saying that it isn't used widely enough to be included in the cd.
Certainly leave it in main, but I don't think voip in general is popular
enough (yet) to include a client. A finance manager like Gnucash is much
more likely to be used by the default user.

Evan
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Bryan Haskins]

Unfortunately, and I say this as a Skype using hypocrite, it'll be fairly
hard to pull any newcomers to anything but Skype. It's just what they know,
brand recognition, they thing calls on your computer, Skype, not SIP itself
or open source shells/GUI clients for it. I am however all for trying to
make people change their mind, have both a standard SIP service, and skype
right now. The better the client we include, that is *obvious* to people,
the better the chance we had.

On Dec 31, 2007 3:03 PM, Neal McBurnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 01:41:20PM -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> > I've tried, unsuccessfully, to use Ekiga a few times.  I got
> > Wengophone to work once.  I know a lot of other people have had
> > issues with Ekiga not connecting to anything.  Maybe that's changed
> > since Dapper, but I don't know.  It didn't work for me with
> > Feisty--that's when I tried Wengo.
> >
> >  On Dec 30, 2007 10:22 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >I'm sure there have been long discussions on these
> >before, but here are my suggestions:
> >
> >Remove
> >-ekiga (very few people use voip, and most of those that
> >do use skype. leave it in the repos if you must, but it
> >makes no sense to have it on the cd)
>
> It is clear to me that we need at least one free, best-of-breed VOIP
> app shipping with Ubuntu.  VOIP is steadily increasing in popularity.
> Providing free standards-compliant end-to-end VOIP is an important
> alternative to the phone companies and others trying to turn it into a
> proprietary ghetto.
>
>  http://www.joeterranova.net/2007/10/09/why-i-hate-vonage/
>
> Skype is not only non-free, but it is anti-open in the sense that it
> does not interoperate with other VOIP apps or use a standard protocol.
> It is worse than cell phones in the years before we required
> portability of phone numbers between providers.
>
> In these days of the opening up of cell phone interoperability between
> providers, I think the last thing we should encourage is that Ubuntu
> users use Skype.
>
> I've had success with ekiga.  Removing it from main without a free
> alternative would be a setback.
>
> Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/
>
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Re: VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Dec 31, 2007 3:03 PM, Neal McBurnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've had success with ekiga.  Removing it from main without a free
> alternative would be a setback.
>

Just to clarify, Wengo is GPL'd.

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VOIP: ekiga, wengophone, twinkle (was What is 'administrivia')

[Neal McBurnett]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 01:41:20PM -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> I've tried, unsuccessfully, to use Ekiga a few times.  I got
> Wengophone to work once.  I know a lot of other people have had
> issues with Ekiga not connecting to anything.  Maybe that's changed
> since Dapper, but I don't know.  It didn't work for me with
> Feisty--that's when I tried Wengo.
> 
>  On Dec 30, 2007 10:22 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm sure there have been long discussions on these
>before, but here are my suggestions:
>
>Remove
>-ekiga (very few people use voip, and most of those that
>do use skype. leave it in the repos if you must, but it
>makes no sense to have it on the cd)

It is clear to me that we need at least one free, best-of-breed VOIP
app shipping with Ubuntu.  VOIP is steadily increasing in popularity.
Providing free standards-compliant end-to-end VOIP is an important
alternative to the phone companies and others trying to turn it into a
proprietary ghetto.

 http://www.joeterranova.net/2007/10/09/why-i-hate-vonage/

Skype is not only non-free, but it is anti-open in the sense that it
does not interoperate with other VOIP apps or use a standard protocol.
It is worse than cell phones in the years before we required
portability of phone numbers between providers.

In these days of the opening up of cell phone interoperability between
providers, I think the last thing we should encourage is that Ubuntu
users use Skype.

I've had success with ekiga.  Removing it from main without a free
alternative would be a setback.

Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/

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Re: What is 'administrivia'?

[Mackenzie Morgan]

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to use Ekiga a few times.  I got Wengophone to
work once.  I know a lot of other people have had issues with Ekiga not
connecting to anything.  Maybe that's changed since Dapper, but I don't
know.  It didn't work for me with Feisty--that's when I tried Wengo.

On Dec 30, 2007 1:19 PM, Bryan Quigley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My guess is the "Remove" on a single line.
> I can't say I have ever used Ekiga or Base.  However, if you say the cd
> comes with OpenOffice.org it should come with OpenOffice.org (what they
> ship with).
> -Bryan
>
> On Dec 30, 2007 10:22 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > There's nothing like that in it. In fact, here's what I sent out:
> >
> > I'm sure there have been long discussions on these before, but here are
> > my suggestions:
> >
> > Remove
> > -ekiga (very few people use voip, and most of those that do use skype.
> > leave it in the repos if you must, but it makes no sense to have it on the
> > cd)
> > -openoffice.org-base (the average desktop user rarely uses spreadsheets,
> > let alone a full-fledged db. again, leave it in the repos but not the cd)
> >
> > Removing these two saves at least 7.5MB (more if I missed some
> > no-longer-needed dependencies). Using this space we could include something
> > like GnuCash instead that a lot more of the average Joes would find useful.
> >
> > Anyways, just my two cents.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 30, 2007 10:12 AM, Neal McBurnett < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 09:42:35AM -0500, Evan wrote:
> > > > I just sent an email to this list, and a few seconds later found out
> > > it had
> > > > been put on hold pending review because: "Message may contain
> > > administrivia"
> > > >
> > > > What???
> > >
> > > Often people who don't understand mailing lists send requests like
> > > "subscribe" or "help" to the entire list, rather than to the
> > > administrative address assocaited with the list.  So the software
> > > tries to filter that "administrivia" out so it doesn't spam the other
> > > subscribers.
> > >
> > > My guess would be to look for command-words like that, rephrase them
> > > and try again.
> > >
> > > Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: What is 'administrivia'?

[Bryan Quigley]

My guess is the "Remove" on a single line.
I can't say I have ever used Ekiga or Base.  However, if you say the cd
comes with OpenOffice.org it should come with OpenOffice.org (what they ship
with).
-Bryan

On Dec 30, 2007 10:22 AM, Evan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There's nothing like that in it. In fact, here's what I sent out:
>
> I'm sure there have been long discussions on these before, but here are my
> suggestions:
>
> Remove
> -ekiga (very few people use voip, and most of those that do use skype.
> leave it in the repos if you must, but it makes no sense to have it on the
> cd)
> -openoffice.org-base (the average desktop user rarely uses spreadsheets,
> let alone a full-fledged db. again, leave it in the repos but not the cd)
>
> Removing these two saves at least 7.5MB (more if I missed some
> no-longer-needed dependencies). Using this space we could include something
> like GnuCash instead that a lot more of the average Joes would find useful.
>
> Anyways, just my two cents.
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2007 10:12 AM, Neal McBurnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 09:42:35AM -0500, Evan wrote:
> > > I just sent an email to this list, and a few seconds later found out
> > it had
> > > been put on hold pending review because: "Message may contain
> > administrivia"
> > >
> > > What???
> >
> > Often people who don't understand mailing lists send requests like
> > "subscribe" or "help" to the entire list, rather than to the
> > administrative address assocaited with the list.  So the software
> > tries to filter that "administrivia" out so it doesn't spam the other
> > subscribers.
> >
> > My guess would be to look for command-words like that, rephrase them
> > and try again.
> >
> > Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/
> >
>
>
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Re: What is 'administrivia'?

[Evan]

There's nothing like that in it. In fact, here's what I sent out:

I'm sure there have been long discussions on these before, but here are my
suggestions:

Remove
-ekiga (very few people use voip, and most of those that do use skype. leave
it in the repos if you must, but it makes no sense to have it on the cd)
-openoffice.org-base (the average desktop user rarely uses spreadsheets, let
alone a full-fledged db. again, leave it in the repos but not the cd)

Removing these two saves at least 7.5MB (more if I missed some
no-longer-needed dependencies). Using this space we could include something
like GnuCash instead that a lot more of the average Joes would find useful.

Anyways, just my two cents.



On Dec 30, 2007 10:12 AM, Neal McBurnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 09:42:35AM -0500, Evan wrote:
> > I just sent an email to this list, and a few seconds later found out it
> had
> > been put on hold pending review because: "Message may contain
> administrivia"
> >
> > What???
>
> Often people who don't understand mailing lists send requests like
> "subscribe" or "help" to the entire list, rather than to the
> administrative address assocaited with the list.  So the software
> tries to filter that "administrivia" out so it doesn't spam the other
> subscribers.
>
> My guess would be to look for command-words like that, rephrase them
> and try again.
>
> Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/
>
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Re: What is 'administrivia'?

[Neal McBurnett]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 09:42:35AM -0500, Evan wrote:
> I just sent an email to this list, and a few seconds later found out it had
> been put on hold pending review because: "Message may contain administrivia"
> 
> What???

Often people who don't understand mailing lists send requests like
"subscribe" or "help" to the entire list, rather than to the
administrative address assocaited with the list.  So the software
tries to filter that "administrivia" out so it doesn't spam the other
subscribers.

My guess would be to look for command-words like that, rephrase them
and try again.

Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/

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What is 'administrivia'?

[Evan]

I just sent an email to this list, and a few seconds later found out it had
been put on hold pending review because: "Message may contain administrivia"

What???
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