Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Arvind Gupta]

Mangal
 Seems like great link nice post.
-arvind

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:45, Anish Mangal wrote:

> Hi
>
> Staying on the topic of having complete control over h/w AND s/w for better
> solutions, interested folks may have a look at 
> opencores.
> It is an initiative to design open-source hardware. The community strength
> is nowhere near what it is behind any open-source distro but its picking up,
> though some good amount of work has been done.
>
> In earlier days (and to a large extent, even today) hardware design used to
> be exclusively proprietary due to astronomical capital costs involved, but
> the trend has changed with the advent of 'fab-less' companies, who basically
> design stuff and get it made by someone else. They are the ones who stand to
> gain the most out of such an initiative. As a great example AMD, Qualcomm
> and Broadcom are all fab-less (meaning no manufacturing capability)!
>
> Regards,
> Anish Mangal
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
> ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:35 PM, bkd.jdk  wrote:
>> > On Tuesday 23 March 2010 12:33 PM, K Ramnarayan wrote:
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know
>> what
>> >> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
>> >>
>> >> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of
>> the best
>> >> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness
>> to
>> >> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories,
>> the very
>> >> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support.
>> >> Basically i like it very much
>> >>
>> >> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and
>> maybe
>> >> not so minor aspects.
>> >>
>> >> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes
>> (e.g. GIMP)
>> >> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big.
>> > (OT)
>> > These changes may seem small, but they are really big ones. Especially
>> > the 'window buttons on the left' one. I really don't understand it, they
>> > shouldn't add such changes in an LTS release. If they would want to
>> > experiment, they can experiment in Lucid+1.
>> >> Then there is this
>> >> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
>> >>
>> >> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check
>> out
>> >>
>> >> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"
>> >> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
>> >>
>> >> and some related discussions
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
>> >>
>> >> and
>> >>
>> >> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
>> >> democracy?source=smlynch
>> >>
>> > Well, Ubuntu has become very big and that's all because of it's
>> > community. Not because of Canonical. There are people who spend nights
>> > contributing to Ubuntu, just for the sake of the community and Canonical
>> > is now completely ignoring them. In my opinion there should be some kind
>> > of open poll before making big changes that would affect the whole
>> > community, but no why will they do it, "Ubuntu is not a democracy" ya
>> > know :)
>> >
>>
>> Well thats what he meant. Kind off. The kernel team decides the kernel
>> because they are the ones who work on it. No one else can vote for
>> their decisions because they have the merit of packing the kernel. The
>> design team contribute to design and no one outside their team decides
>> upon the design because they spend nights contributing to it. That
>> sounds like a professional way to manage things.
>>
>> On a personal note, I am completely OK with the buttons on the left.
>> In fact I had them on the left even before Canonical decided to (my
>> reason was because mac has it and mac > windows.. stupid reason though
>> ). Plus, now I am used to it and sometimes feel weird using the
>> buttons on the right in MS Windows (I have the opposite problem). What
>> I reason to myself is that:
>> 1) Canonical's design is new, it does not imitate mac (mac has the
>> opposite order) nor does it imitate windows. That is bad if you look
>> at it in terms of user migration from windows to ubuntu. But people
>> migrate to mac too from their windows and adapt well to it. So ubuntu
>> has something unique.
>>
>> 2) Mark Shuttleworth said that the next Ubuntu will have something
>> good on the right hand side. Right now there is the extra options to
>> move the windows from one workspace to the other and all that. But
>> hopefully they will get something good. I want a zeitgeist activity
>> journal integrated there. But lets hope for something better.
>>
>> --
>> Ashutosh Rishi
>> Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-in mailing list
>> ubuntu-in@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-in
>>
>
>
> --
> ubuntu-i

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

By a mac I meant a mac mac. Not a hacked mac. I had seen the links and have
tested it on my PC for close to a week and result was the least stable
system I used till date.

How ever thanks for reminding me again. I will make my PC unstable again :)

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Jkhatri  wrote:

>  On 03/23/2010 04:37 PM, Amarendra Kumar wrote:
>
> Great post Ram.
>
> I have been mulling over such issues recently. And similarly, I like Ubuntu
> but I used to love Ubuntu. Some changes have happened that I personally
> don't like and it's bound to happen in case of such a huge user base distro.
> But things like moving widgets to the left side is something I find weird as
> most of the users are windows migrants like me and left side widgets are
> painful too (I tried it on my friends Mac for long enough to be sure).
>
> I am triple booting Vista (for stuffs like Counter Strike etc.), Fedora
> (used seldom, didn't like actually) and Ubuntu is my main OS. I have
> planning on an Ubuntu alternative myself especially in case I have top ditch
> it seeing the growing control over it. I had chosen Arch Linux for that
> purpose which is included in Ram's list.
>
> So I will replace Fedora partition ===> Arch Linux.
>
> I don't know why but I have this strong feeling that I may convert to Mac
> once I can afford one :P
>
>
> hacked mac is available for PC ( Intel Hardware )
>
> OSx86 see .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSx86
>
>
> have a look at this for more details ..http://ihackintosh.org/ideneb
>
>  ;-)
>
> After all if I have to go for closed open source why not go for a better
> and solid closed closed source.
>
> These developments made one thing clear - I am not going to be a complete
> one-OS convert , not at least in near future. Options are always good.
>
> Somebody once rightly said in an IRC channel: " don't stick to one distro
> for long, you will lose the thrill". I am loosing it :)
>
> Cheers!!
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
> ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the
>> reactions
>> > and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just
>> maybe
>> > we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
>> >
>> > I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its
>> subsequent
>> > setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they
>> should
>> > for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and
>> where to
>> > source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>> >
>> > I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a
>> freer
>> > system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus
>> many
>> > of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.
>>
>>  Ubuntu has gone far from being a typical linux distro and its because
>> of canonical. Ubuntu is now capable of challenging the macintosh and
>> windows in their own game as a proper all-level consumer product.
>> Getting its own music-store, thats an amazing feat (and its possible
>> because of Canonical). Free and open source softwares are good. But in
>> the main OS battlefield you cannot place your linux OS without a
>> strong dedicated company (which will steer the advertising and
>> management) backing it. Of course, the linux OS can be amazing in
>> functioning, but thats it. It won't create much of an impact on
>> 'everyone'.
>>
>> Canonical can rightfully guide ubuntu (and its amazing that they do it
>> as saints). Because ubuntu is getting so popular, its essential for
>> ubuntu to have Canonical securing its interests. The final decision to
>> what appears in ubuntu is Canonical's decision and they really have to
>> base their decision (now) on the fact that ubuntu is being eyed as a
>> fierce competitor to mac and windows (even though there are other good
>> linux OS, Ubuntu has entered the consumer stream more deeply). A good
>> proof of this happening is that all the major softwares when available
>> for download focus on ubuntu as a major consumer linux OS.
>>
>> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
>> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
>> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
>> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
>> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
>> idiot-proof.
>>
>> > My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other
>> than
>> > Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux
>> Ubuntu users
>> > tried other distro's and what do they feel.
>> >
>> > I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make
>> another
>> > distro do to my bidding.
>>
>>  I tried fedora. Found it not much different from my experience on
>> ubuntu. Even though Ubuntu is moving to be more idiot-proof, it has
>> def

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan]

On 23 March 2010 16:37, Amarendra Kumar  wrote:
> Great post Ram.
>
> I have been mulling over such issues recently. And similarly, I like Ubuntu
> but I used to love Ubuntu. Some changes have happened that I personally
> don't like and it's bound to happen in case of such a huge user base distro.
> But things like moving widgets to the left side is something I find weird as
> most of the users are windows migrants like me and left side widgets are
> painful too (I tried it on my friends Mac for long enough to be sure).
>
> I am triple booting Vista (for stuffs like Counter Strike etc.), Fedora
> (used seldom, didn't like actually) and Ubuntu is my main OS. I have
> planning on an Ubuntu alternative myself especially in case I have top ditch
> it seeing the growing control over it. I had chosen Arch Linux for that
> purpose which is included in Ram's list.
>
> So I will replace Fedora partition ===> Arch Linux.
>
> I don't know why but I have this strong feeling that I may convert to Mac
> once I can afford one :P
> After all if I have to go for closed open source why not go for a better and
> solid closed closed source.

I am going to convert to a mac too. But...
Mac will be replacing Windows not Ubuntu :P That is if I am able to
dual boot in a mac book pro, the procedure in the forums was pretty
elaborate. But I think I read somewhere that they are working on
easier Ubuntu installations on Mac at the Google summer of Code.

> These developments made one thing clear - I am not going to be a complete
> one-OS convert , not at least in near future. Options are always good.
>
> Somebody once rightly said in an IRC channel: " don't stick to one distro
> for long, you will lose the thrill". I am loosing it :)

Nice line.. But actually Ubuntu keeps up the thrill with its six month
release cycles and all the new features added weekly. I follow 3 main
ubuntu blogs and am surprised and excited about all the amazing
features and news which keep on coming. There are applications I never
heard of and which should have been heard of. Its a fun world of
Ubuntu!

> Cheers!!

-- 
Ashutosh Rishi
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish

-- 
ubuntu-in mailing list
ubuntu-in@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-in

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Jkhatri]

On 03/23/2010 04:37 PM, Amarendra Kumar wrote:

Great post Ram.

I have been mulling over such issues recently. And similarly, I like 
Ubuntu but I used to love Ubuntu. Some changes have happened that I 
personally don't like and it's bound to happen in case of such a huge 
user base distro. But things like moving widgets to the left side is 
something I find weird as most of the users are windows migrants like 
me and left side widgets are painful too (I tried it on my friends Mac 
for long enough to be sure).


I am triple booting Vista (for stuffs like Counter Strike etc.), 
Fedora (used seldom, didn't like actually) and Ubuntu is my main OS. I 
have planning on an Ubuntu alternative myself especially in case I 
have top ditch it seeing the growing control over it. I had chosen 
Arch Linux for that purpose which is included in Ram's list.


So I will replace Fedora partition ===> Arch Linux.

I don't know why but I have this strong feeling that I may convert to 
Mac once I can afford one :P


hacked mac is available for PC ( Intel Hardware )

OSx86 see .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSx86


have a look at this for more details ..http://ihackintosh.org/ideneb

;-)

After all if I have to go for closed open source why not go for a 
better and solid closed closed source.


These developments made one thing clear - I am not going to be a 
complete one-OS convert , not at least in near future. Options are 
always good.


Somebody once rightly said in an IRC channel: " don't stick to one 
distro for long, you will lose the thrill". I am loosing it :)


Cheers!!

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan 
mailto:ashutoshrish...@gmail.com>> wrote:


> So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments
and the reactions
> and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That
maybe just maybe
> we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
>
> I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its
subsequent
> setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like
they should
> for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software
and where to
> source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>
> I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to
move to a freer
> system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are
600 plus many
> of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.

Ubuntu has gone far from being a typical linux distro and its because
of canonical. Ubuntu is now capable of challenging the macintosh and
windows in their own game as a proper all-level consumer product.
Getting its own music-store, thats an amazing feat (and its possible
because of Canonical). Free and open source softwares are good. But in
the main OS battlefield you cannot place your linux OS without a
strong dedicated company (which will steer the advertising and
management) backing it. Of course, the linux OS can be amazing in
functioning, but thats it. It won't create much of an impact on
'everyone'.

Canonical can rightfully guide ubuntu (and its amazing that they do it
as saints). Because ubuntu is getting so popular, its essential for
ubuntu to have Canonical securing its interests. The final decision to
what appears in ubuntu is Canonical's decision and they really have to
base their decision (now) on the fact that ubuntu is being eyed as a
fierce competitor to mac and windows (even though there are other good
linux OS, Ubuntu has entered the consumer stream more deeply). A good
proof of this happening is that all the major softwares when available
for download focus on ubuntu as a major consumer linux OS.

I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
idiot-proof.

> My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro
other than
> Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time
linux Ubuntu users
> tried other distro's and what do they feel.
>
> I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can
make another
> distro do to my bidding.

I tried fedora. Found it not much different from my experience on
ubuntu. Even though Ubuntu is moving to be more idiot-proof, it has
definitely not left behind the powerhouse of linux like what fedora
has. This is the best thing I like about ubuntu. You can team up
old-school and new-school. Plus, I found ubuntu's development and
package managers more better.

Another distro I tried was Archos. Its brilliant! and fun. Yo

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[ಮಲ್ಲಿಕಾರ್ಜುನ್]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

> 2010/3/24 Mallikarjun :
> > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Ramnarayan.K 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Imagine if Opensource folks had control over the device and the
> >> software - it would be wow. And i thing in the phone segment that is
> >> what is happening
> >>
> >> openmoko is an example, as there are others.
> >
> > (off topic)
> > I dint like the example, the reason being, I had owned Openmoko,
> > Operating system (2009 feb version I had used, I guess) not even
> > usable, most important features like wifi, GPS dont work most of the
> > times. OS Suspends and never resume. In around 2 months of esteemed
> > ownership, atleast 60 times I have reinstalled OS. lol
> > What value does it add by have total control over hardware?
> >
>
> Found this on Google buzz posted by Mehul and think that this is an
> interesting development
>
> Nanonote looks like a nice device. Best thing is that hardware,
> software both are copylefted! - http://www.idasystems.net/nanonote
>
> Seems nice to me too.

Cost is 9000 with 2500 introductory offer till March 31. So you have to pay
6500. Hurry if you like it.


> ram
>
> --
> ubuntu-in mailing list
> ubuntu-in@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-in
>
-- 
ubuntu-in mailing list
ubuntu-in@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-in

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ramnarayan.K]

2010/3/24 Mallikarjun :
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Ramnarayan.K  wrote:
>>
>> Imagine if Opensource folks had control over the device and the
>> software - it would be wow. And i thing in the phone segment that is
>> what is happening
>>
>> openmoko is an example, as there are others.
>
> (off topic)
> I dint like the example, the reason being, I had owned Openmoko,
> Operating system (2009 feb version I had used, I guess) not even
> usable, most important features like wifi, GPS dont work most of the
> times. OS Suspends and never resume. In around 2 months of esteemed
> ownership, atleast 60 times I have reinstalled OS. lol
> What value does it add by have total control over hardware?
>

Found this on Google buzz posted by Mehul and think that this is an
interesting development

Nanonote looks like a nice device. Best thing is that hardware,
software both are copylefted! - http://www.idasystems.net/nanonote

ram

-- 
ubuntu-in mailing list
ubuntu-in@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-in

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

Great post Ram.

I have been mulling over such issues recently. And similarly, I like Ubuntu
but I used to love Ubuntu. Some changes have happened that I personally
don't like and it's bound to happen in case of such a huge user base distro.
But things like moving widgets to the left side is something I find weird as
most of the users are windows migrants like me and left side widgets are
painful too (I tried it on my friends Mac for long enough to be sure).

I am triple booting Vista (for stuffs like Counter Strike etc.), Fedora
(used seldom, didn't like actually) and Ubuntu is my main OS. I have
planning on an Ubuntu alternative myself especially in case I have top ditch
it seeing the growing control over it. I had chosen Arch Linux for that
purpose which is included in Ram's list.

So I will replace Fedora partition ===> Arch Linux.

I don't know why but I have this strong feeling that I may convert to Mac
once I can afford one :P
After all if I have to go for closed open source why not go for a better and
solid closed closed source.

These developments made one thing clear - I am not going to be a complete
one-OS convert , not at least in near future. Options are always good.

Somebody once rightly said in an IRC channel: " don't stick to one distro
for long, you will lose the thrill". I am loosing it :)

Cheers!!

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the
> reactions
> > and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just
> maybe
> > we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
> >
> > I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its
> subsequent
> > setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they
> should
> > for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where
> to
> > source software (tuxwire, zyware).
> >
> > I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a
> freer
> > system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus
> many
> > of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.
>
> Ubuntu has gone far from being a typical linux distro and its because
> of canonical. Ubuntu is now capable of challenging the macintosh and
> windows in their own game as a proper all-level consumer product.
> Getting its own music-store, thats an amazing feat (and its possible
> because of Canonical). Free and open source softwares are good. But in
> the main OS battlefield you cannot place your linux OS without a
> strong dedicated company (which will steer the advertising and
> management) backing it. Of course, the linux OS can be amazing in
> functioning, but thats it. It won't create much of an impact on
> 'everyone'.
>
> Canonical can rightfully guide ubuntu (and its amazing that they do it
> as saints). Because ubuntu is getting so popular, its essential for
> ubuntu to have Canonical securing its interests. The final decision to
> what appears in ubuntu is Canonical's decision and they really have to
> base their decision (now) on the fact that ubuntu is being eyed as a
> fierce competitor to mac and windows (even though there are other good
> linux OS, Ubuntu has entered the consumer stream more deeply). A good
> proof of this happening is that all the major softwares when available
> for download focus on ubuntu as a major consumer linux OS.
>
> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
> idiot-proof.
>
> > My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other
> than
> > Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu
> users
> > tried other distro's and what do they feel.
> >
> > I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make
> another
> > distro do to my bidding.
>
> I tried fedora. Found it not much different from my experience on
> ubuntu. Even though Ubuntu is moving to be more idiot-proof, it has
> definitely not left behind the powerhouse of linux like what fedora
> has. This is the best thing I like about ubuntu. You can team up
> old-school and new-school. Plus, I found ubuntu's development and
> package managers more better.
>
> Another distro I tried was Archos. Its brilliant! and fun. You can
> build your own OS based on your choice. I ruined my OS :P
>
>
> > My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is
> your
> > secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it,
> under
> > all conditions.
>
> I had windows, ubuntu, fedora on the same computer. For some time I
> used fedora more than Ubuntu to see whether I should keep it.

Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Anish Mangal]

Hi

Staying on the topic of having complete control over h/w AND s/w for better
solutions, interested folks may have a look at
opencores.
It is an initiative to design open-source hardware. The community strength
is nowhere near what it is behind any open-source distro but its picking up,
though some good amount of work has been done.

In earlier days (and to a large extent, even today) hardware design used to
be exclusively proprietary due to astronomical capital costs involved, but
the trend has changed with the advent of 'fab-less' companies, who basically
design stuff and get it made by someone else. They are the ones who stand to
gain the most out of such an initiative. As a great example AMD, Qualcomm
and Broadcom are all fab-less (meaning no manufacturing capability)!

Regards,
Anish Mangal


On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:35 PM, bkd.jdk  wrote:
> > On Tuesday 23 March 2010 12:33 PM, K Ramnarayan wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what
> >> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
> >>
> >> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of
> the best
> >> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to
> >> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the
> very
> >> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support.
> >> Basically i like it very much
> >>
> >> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and
> maybe
> >> not so minor aspects.
> >>
> >> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g.
> GIMP)
> >> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big.
> > (OT)
> > These changes may seem small, but they are really big ones. Especially
> > the 'window buttons on the left' one. I really don't understand it, they
> > shouldn't add such changes in an LTS release. If they would want to
> > experiment, they can experiment in Lucid+1.
> >> Then there is this
> >> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
> >>
> >> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check
> out
> >>
> >> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"
> >> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
> >>
> >> and some related discussions
> >>
> >>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
> >> democracy?source=smlynch
> >>
> > Well, Ubuntu has become very big and that's all because of it's
> > community. Not because of Canonical. There are people who spend nights
> > contributing to Ubuntu, just for the sake of the community and Canonical
> > is now completely ignoring them. In my opinion there should be some kind
> > of open poll before making big changes that would affect the whole
> > community, but no why will they do it, "Ubuntu is not a democracy" ya
> > know :)
> >
>
> Well thats what he meant. Kind off. The kernel team decides the kernel
> because they are the ones who work on it. No one else can vote for
> their decisions because they have the merit of packing the kernel. The
> design team contribute to design and no one outside their team decides
> upon the design because they spend nights contributing to it. That
> sounds like a professional way to manage things.
>
> On a personal note, I am completely OK with the buttons on the left.
> In fact I had them on the left even before Canonical decided to (my
> reason was because mac has it and mac > windows.. stupid reason though
> ). Plus, now I am used to it and sometimes feel weird using the
> buttons on the right in MS Windows (I have the opposite problem). What
> I reason to myself is that:
> 1) Canonical's design is new, it does not imitate mac (mac has the
> opposite order) nor does it imitate windows. That is bad if you look
> at it in terms of user migration from windows to ubuntu. But people
> migrate to mac too from their windows and adapt well to it. So ubuntu
> has something unique.
>
> 2) Mark Shuttleworth said that the next Ubuntu will have something
> good on the right hand side. Right now there is the extra options to
> move the windows from one workspace to the other and all that. But
> hopefully they will get something good. I want a zeitgeist activity
> journal integrated there. But lets hope for something better.
>
> --
> Ashutosh Rishi
> Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish
>
> --
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ninad Pundalik]

Hi,

On 24 March 2010 22:56, Amarendra Kumar  wrote:
> No big deal huh.. I will put it back on the right. And I will start liking
> the new logos and design elements I hope. And there will be Arch in my
> system now, replacing fedora. This time I think I should try sth other than
> Gnome (not KDE).
>
I'd love to see some reviews on the current state of the Enlightenment
project.  E17 and gOS 2.0 had done a lot of things beautifully about
two years ago, and I spent quite a few comfortable and happy months in
that environment.  You might want to try it out if it still has a
decent support base.

There's one thing about the 2 big DEs, KDE and GNOME, which is the
wide range of utility applications that exist for them, which make our
life easier.  I can't live without things like K/Glipper, Amarok and
the keyboard shortcuts (yes, I can get used to new ones over a period
of a month, but it's still time consuming and confusing at the
beginning).

Would like to hear the views of other list members on this thread.
It's been just 4-5 of us over the last 3 or so days on this thread.

Ninad S. Pundalik
http://twitter.com/ni_nad
http://ninadpundalik.co.cc/blog
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

No big deal huh.. I will put it back on the right. And I will start liking
the new logos and design elements I hope. And there will be Arch in my
system now, replacing fedora. This time I think I should try sth other than
Gnome (not KDE).

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark Shuttleworth said that the next Ubuntu will have something
> good on the right hand side. Right now there is the extra options to
> move the windows from one workspace to the other and all that. But
> hopefully they will get something good. I want a zeitgeist activity
> journal integrated there. But lets hope for something better.
>



-- 
Amarendra Kumar
Final Year Undergraduate
Dept. of IT, NIT Patna
http://amarendra.web.officelive.com

"Stay hungry, stay foolish"
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:35 PM, bkd.jdk  wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 March 2010 12:33 PM, K Ramnarayan wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what
>> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
>>
>> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of the 
>> best
>> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to
>> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the very
>> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support.
>> Basically i like it very much
>>
>> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and maybe
>> not so minor aspects.
>>
>> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g. 
>> GIMP)
>> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big.
> (OT)
> These changes may seem small, but they are really big ones. Especially
> the 'window buttons on the left' one. I really don't understand it, they
> shouldn't add such changes in an LTS release. If they would want to
> experiment, they can experiment in Lucid+1.
>> Then there is this
>> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
>>
>> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check out
>>
>> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"
>> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
>>
>> and some related discussions
>>
>> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
>> democracy?source=smlynch
>>
> Well, Ubuntu has become very big and that's all because of it's
> community. Not because of Canonical. There are people who spend nights
> contributing to Ubuntu, just for the sake of the community and Canonical
> is now completely ignoring them. In my opinion there should be some kind
> of open poll before making big changes that would affect the whole
> community, but no why will they do it, "Ubuntu is not a democracy" ya
> know :)
>

Well thats what he meant. Kind off. The kernel team decides the kernel
because they are the ones who work on it. No one else can vote for
their decisions because they have the merit of packing the kernel. The
design team contribute to design and no one outside their team decides
upon the design because they spend nights contributing to it. That
sounds like a professional way to manage things.

On a personal note, I am completely OK with the buttons on the left.
In fact I had them on the left even before Canonical decided to (my
reason was because mac has it and mac > windows.. stupid reason though
). Plus, now I am used to it and sometimes feel weird using the
buttons on the right in MS Windows (I have the opposite problem). What
I reason to myself is that:
1) Canonical's design is new, it does not imitate mac (mac has the
opposite order) nor does it imitate windows. That is bad if you look
at it in terms of user migration from windows to ubuntu. But people
migrate to mac too from their windows and adapt well to it. So ubuntu
has something unique.

2) Mark Shuttleworth said that the next Ubuntu will have something
good on the right hand side. Right now there is the extra options to
move the windows from one workspace to the other and all that. But
hopefully they will get something good. I want a zeitgeist activity
journal integrated there. But lets hope for something better.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[bkd.jdk]

On Tuesday 23 March 2010 12:33 PM, K Ramnarayan wrote:
> Hi
>
> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what 
> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
>
> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of the 
> best 
> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to 
> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the very 
> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support. 
> Basically i like it very much
>
> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and maybe 
> not so minor aspects.
>
> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g. 
> GIMP) 
> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big. 
(OT)
These changes may seem small, but they are really big ones. Especially
the 'window buttons on the left' one. I really don't understand it, they
shouldn't add such changes in an LTS release. If they would want to
experiment, they can experiment in Lucid+1.
> Then there is this
> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
>
> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check out
>
> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy" 
> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
>
> and some related discussions
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
>
> and
>
> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
> democracy?source=smlynch
>   
Well, Ubuntu has become very big and that's all because of it's
community. Not because of Canonical. There are people who spend nights
contributing to Ubuntu, just for the sake of the community and Canonical
is now completely ignoring them. In my opinion there should be some kind
of open poll before making big changes that would affect the whole
community, but no why will they do it, "Ubuntu is not a democracy" ya
know :)

> **
> There are many reasons to use Linux and one of them, for me, is not to be 
> told 
> what to do by a corporation. Sure Canonical is not the new M$, i doubt it can 
> ever become that. (hope not)
>
> But what makes me uncomfortable is the extent of control Canonical is 
> exerting 
> over its user base. Many Linux folks , now, are first time linuxers changed 
> over from Other OS' mainly because of Ubuntu.
>
> So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the 
> reactions 
> and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just 
> maybe 
> we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent. 
>
> I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its subsequent 
> setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they should 
> for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where to 
> source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>
> I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a freer 
> system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus many 
> of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem. 
>
> My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other than 
> Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu 
> users 
> tried other distro's and what do they feel.
>   
First time users would definitely feel lost when trying out distro's
other than Ubuntu. But, I guess the first time users would not care much
for the community or democracy/meritocracy (whatever that Mark said).
They will just use Ubuntu as an alternative to Windows or Mac's, they
won't try out other distro's imho.

> (...)
>
> My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is your 
> secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it, under 
> all conditions.
>   
I triple boot Vista+XP+Ubuntu and I try out other distro's (like
openSUSE) in virtualbox. I've been a long time Linux user (6+ years),
but after using Ubuntu, I still don't feel 'at home' using other
distro's. Mainly because I've become more equipped with the workings of
Ubuntu and I don't really want to spend time 'learning' the workings of
a new distro.
> My 3rd question is what would you suggest people try as a fall back option in 
> case people want to try and alternative.
>   
I'd suggest using Debian. Mainly because Ubuntu is a derivative of
Debian and the workings of the two distro's are similar (like, the
package manager, which most people love, including myself :)). Or Fedora
is also a good alternative for new users.
> My suggestions are Pardus, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Fedora, Knoppix
> Others have suggested Arch Linux
>
> The few times in the recent past when i tried another distro i very quickly 
> reverted back to Ubuntu, since i was uncomfortable around my system but now i 
> think its worth exploring an alternative in great earnest.
>
> look forward to reactions
>
> ram
>
>   


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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ramnarayan.K]

2010/3/24 Mallikarjun :
>> openmoko is an example, as there are others.
>
> (off topic)
> I dint like the example, the reason being, I had owned Openmoko,
> Operating system (2009 feb version I had used, I guess) not even
> usable, most important features like wifi, GPS dont work most of the
> times. OS Suspends and never resume. In around 2 months of esteemed
> ownership, atleast 60 times I have reinstalled OS. lol
> What value does it add by have total control over hardware?
>

Good to know, since you are an openmoko owner / user you are the
better person to speak about it.

For me the idea sounds quite good. On another front we have access to
a open source hardware design for a solar charge controller.

here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_hardware

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[ಮಲ್ಲಿಕಾರ್ಜುನ್]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Ramnarayan.K  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
>  wrote:
>> Macintosh is really good. Open source is amazing. But amazing is not
>> in the comparative degree. Apple has one of the most closed systems.
>> But their system is amazing. It is managed will amazing efficiency.
>
> One reason why macs are so efficient is because they have complete
> control over hardware and software and they have no need to make the
> Mac OS work with anything that is not from their stable.
>

Also, Don't ever forget that Mac OS is based on rock solid BSD's,
being a major factor

> That way even Wincedows is a bit better , atleast they are not
> restricting anyone in choice of hardware, the fact that most hardware
> would be Wincedows compatible is another matter.
>
> Imagine if Opensource folks had control over the device and the
> software - it would be wow. And i thing in the phone segment that is
> what is happening
>
> openmoko is an example, as there are others.

(off topic)
I dint like the example, the reason being, I had owned Openmoko,
Operating system (2009 feb version I had used, I guess) not even
usable, most important features like wifi, GPS dont work most of the
times. OS Suspends and never resume. In around 2 months of esteemed
ownership, atleast 60 times I have reinstalled OS. lol
What value does it add by have total control over hardware?


>
> @ all
> One reason for the mail was to provoke debate ;-)
>
> i would like to repeat i really like Ubuntu  and what they have done
> to Linux, basically make it accessible. And in a way life is easier
> because i know how it works.
>
> ram
>
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ramnarayan.K]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
 wrote:
> Macintosh is really good. Open source is amazing. But amazing is not
> in the comparative degree. Apple has one of the most closed systems.
> But their system is amazing. It is managed will amazing efficiency.

One reason why macs are so efficient is because they have complete
control over hardware and software and they have no need to make the
Mac OS work with anything that is not from their stable.

That way even Wincedows is a bit better , atleast they are not
restricting anyone in choice of hardware, the fact that most hardware
would be Wincedows compatible is another matter.

Imagine if Opensource folks had control over the device and the
software - it would be wow. And i thing in the phone segment that is
what is happening

openmoko is an example, as there are others.

@ all
One reason for the mail was to provoke debate ;-)

i would like to repeat i really like Ubuntu  and what they have done
to Linux, basically make it accessible. And in a way life is easier
because i know how it works.

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[ಮಲ್ಲಿಕಾರ್ಜುನ್]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:33 PM, K Ramnarayan  wrote:
> Hi
>
> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what
> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
>
> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of the best
> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to
> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the very
> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support.
> Basically i like it very much
>
> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and maybe
> not so minor aspects.
>
> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g. GIMP)
> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big.
>
> Then there is this
> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
>
> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check out
>
> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"
> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
>
> and some related discussions
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
>
> and
>
> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
> democracy?source=smlynch
>
> **
> There are many reasons to use Linux and one of them, for me, is not to be told
> what to do by a corporation. Sure Canonical is not the new M$, i doubt it can
> ever become that. (hope not)
>
> But what makes me uncomfortable is the extent of control Canonical is exerting
> over its user base. Many Linux folks , now, are first time linuxers changed
> over from Other OS' mainly because of Ubuntu.
>
> So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the 
> reactions
> and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just maybe
> we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
>
> I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its subsequent
> setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they should
> for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where to
> source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>
> I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a freer
> system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus many
> of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.
>
> My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other than
> Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu 
> users
> tried other distro's and what do they feel.

I guess it is quiet hard for any Ubuntu user to move to some other
distro, as Ubuntu is the most polished GNU/linux which I can think of.
But any other distro out there has same Desktop environment (GNOME),
only think we can ever miss is the polishness and not the underlying
system.
Best alter I can think of is Ubuntu's parent Debian.

>
> I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make another
> distro do to my bidding.
>
> My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is your
> secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it, under
> all conditions.

I think. few years ago people were comfortable, but not anymore with
all the full OS virtualization tools like Virtualbox OSE. Everything
is easy in a virtual world, isn't it?

>
> My 3rd question is what would you suggest people try as a fall back option in
> case people want to try and alternative.

Pass

>
> My suggestions are Pardus, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Fedora, Knoppix
> Others have suggested Arch Linux
>
> The few times in the recent past when i tried another distro i very quickly
> reverted back to Ubuntu, since i was uncomfortable around my system but now i
> think its worth exploring an alternative in great earnest.
>

+1, I also tried many operating systems like Fedora, Debian, FreeBSD,
Solaris ... But only Ubuntu had the taste I wanted (or may
be addiction). I am trying out FreeBSD in my virtual environment, hope
to make the switch to some OS which is completely community driven.


> look forward to reactions
>
> ram
>
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Jkhatri]

On 03/23/2010 11:43 PM, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Amarendra Kumar  wrote:
   

I wouldn't pay. Never.
I will buy a Mac or build a distro from scratch  and for things like mail, I
will rather buy a domain and will have my own domain.
 



A) Buy a mac. - they may have good products but they are far more
closed source than M$ and of course you pay for your software - mac's
are expensive and the software comes built in , you either like it or
you don't its even less tweakable than M$

B.) Build seems good or maybe better contribute to some that are
already being built.

C.) for mail even if you have your own domain you will still need a
computer (of any sort) and an OS to run it.

ram

   
I will suggest . rebuild OS from[1] RedHat source RPM ( server and 
client )



[1] ftp://ftp.redhat.com/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/



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Phone (+91) 98250 20393

Save Paper, Save Environment.**
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Hardik Dalwadi]

Ramnarayan.K wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
>  wrote:
>> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
>> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
>> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
>> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
>> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
>> idiot-proof.
> 
> I missed an important point in my original  mail but here is one of the crux
> 
> What if, just thing about it, what if Canonical asked you to pay. A La
> Novell and Closed Suse (as opposed to open suse) or Red Hat

AFAIK, Canonical is following service base model. Why are you thinking 
like that " What if Canonical asked you to pay"?  For what? Ubuntu OS?

As Mr. Ashutosh said, Ubuntu is Foundation with it's own funding. Here 
is quote from Wikipedia [1]. Here is official e-Mail Announcement [2]

"Ubuntu is currently funded by Canonical Ltd. On July 8, 2005, Mark 
Shuttleworth and Canonical Ltd announced the creation of the Ubuntu 
Foundation and provided an initial funding of US$10 million. The purpose 
of the foundation is to ensure the support and development for all 
future versions of Ubuntu. Mark Shuttleworth describes the foundation as 
an "emergency fund" (in case Canonical's involvement ends).[20]"


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28operating_system%29
[2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-July/25.html


> This (at another level) is also applicable to Gmail (and other google 
> services)
> 
> Yes people would migrate , maybe, but would you pay. I wouldn't , not
> because its about the money because actually i am willing to pay for
> services. which is what the open source model offers.

Agree, I hope you will insist your OEM to ship machine with 
Pre-Installed Ubuntu, on your next purchase. If not then you can 
purchase support / services.

Also, i like Ubuntu, because it's common for End-user / Community and 
Enterprise with Free Update / Upgrades, If i need support on my existing 
Ubuntu system / installation, i can buy support from Canonical or any 
other company, This is not the case in other distro, If i need support 
on that, it's difficult,  i am sure companies will ask you to upgrade on 
commercial one.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan]

Macintosh is really good. Open source is amazing. But amazing is not
in the comparative degree. Apple has one of the most closed systems.
But their system is amazing. It is managed will amazing efficiency.
Not everyone can create closed systems and thrive unless they do it
right. Similarly not everyone can create open systems and thrive.
Sometimes though, even I wonder how I can adore mac and linux at the
same time :P Its just that they are great pieces of technology. And at
the end thats what should count. But it can't. Not everyone has money
:| I have imagined having a mac book pro with Ubuntu dual booted.

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

@Ashutosh +1

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan <
ashutoshrish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Ramnarayan.K 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
> >  wrote:
> >> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
> >> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
> >> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
> >> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
> >> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
> >> idiot-proof.
> >
> > I missed an important point in my original  mail but here is one of the
> crux
> >
> > What if, just thing about it, what if Canonical asked you to pay. A La
> > Novell and Closed Suse (as opposed to open suse) or Red Hat
> >
> > This (at another level) is also applicable to Gmail (and other google
> services)
>
> When I first went to Ubuntu.com to download my first copy of the OS, the
> first
> thing I read was "The Ubuntu Promise". Which of course promises to
> keep ubuntu free. And I *trust* in it. Even if they manage to charge
> on it against the uproar of a massive community which has kept itself
> well versed with the Ubuntu Promise, at this moment, I have faith in
> them and thats why Ubuntu is great.
> I don't think they will ever put a price on it. The community is there
> to ensure that. Even though Canonical is the main company as I said,
> they are important as long as they keep the community running. If the
> community collapses, Ubuntu is going to be history.
> Plus if there is ever a situation that Canonical just lets ubuntu go,
> there is an Ubuntu Foundation with enough funds to keep ubuntu running
> until everything stabilizes.
>
>
> > Yes people would migrate , maybe, but would you pay. I wouldn't , not
> > because its about the money because actually i am willing to pay for
> > services. which is what the open source model offers.
> >
> > ram
>
> --
> Ashutosh Rishi
> Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish
>
> --
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>



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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Ramnarayan.K  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
>  wrote:
>> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
>> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
>> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
>> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
>> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
>> idiot-proof.
>
> I missed an important point in my original  mail but here is one of the crux
>
> What if, just thing about it, what if Canonical asked you to pay. A La
> Novell and Closed Suse (as opposed to open suse) or Red Hat
>
> This (at another level) is also applicable to Gmail (and other google 
> services)

When I first went to Ubuntu.com to download my first copy of the OS, the first
thing I read was "The Ubuntu Promise". Which of course promises to
keep ubuntu free. And I *trust* in it. Even if they manage to charge
on it against the uproar of a massive community which has kept itself
well versed with the Ubuntu Promise, at this moment, I have faith in
them and thats why Ubuntu is great.
I don't think they will ever put a price on it. The community is there
to ensure that. Even though Canonical is the main company as I said,
they are important as long as they keep the community running. If the
community collapses, Ubuntu is going to be history.
Plus if there is ever a situation that Canonical just lets ubuntu go,
there is an Ubuntu Foundation with enough funds to keep ubuntu running
until everything stabilizes.


> Yes people would migrate , maybe, but would you pay. I wouldn't , not
> because its about the money because actually i am willing to pay for
> services. which is what the open source model offers.
>
> ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

When I actually buy an OS or build one from scratch I already have solved
the need for an OS. So, having a domain is fine as I have this OS to use it.

Mac may be more closed source but being on a closed open source thing is
worse than a closed closed source ( I said in my first mail). And when you
are talking about paying for Ubuntu (assumption) then why not pay for a
Mac!! Of course it all depends upon your needs and how much you can afford
to pay.

I am not a Mac fan but I've used it for some time on a friends system and
it's actually good. Better say solid. Lots of free (as in free beer)
programs are now available for Mac.

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Amarendra Kumar 
> wrote:
> > I wouldn't pay. Never.
> > I will buy a Mac or build a distro from scratch  and for things like
> mail, I
> > will rather buy a domain and will have my own domain.
>
>
>
> A) Buy a mac. - they may have good products but they are far more
> closed source than M$ and of course you pay for your software - mac's
> are expensive and the software comes built in , you either like it or
> you don't its even less tweakable than M$
>
> B.) Build seems good or maybe better contribute to some that are
> already being built.
>
> C.) for mail even if you have your own domain you will still need a
> computer (of any sort) and an OS to run it.
>
> ram
>
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>



-- 
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Final Year Undergraduate
Dept. of IT, NIT Patna
http://amarendra.web.officelive.com

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ramnarayan.K]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Amarendra Kumar  wrote:
> I wouldn't pay. Never.
> I will buy a Mac or build a distro from scratch  and for things like mail, I
> will rather buy a domain and will have my own domain.



A) Buy a mac. - they may have good products but they are far more
closed source than M$ and of course you pay for your software - mac's
are expensive and the software comes built in , you either like it or
you don't its even less tweakable than M$

B.) Build seems good or maybe better contribute to some that are
already being built.

C.) for mail even if you have your own domain you will still need a
computer (of any sort) and an OS to run it.

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Amarendra Kumar]

I wouldn't pay. Never.
I will buy a Mac or build a distro from scratch  and for things like mail, I
will rather buy a domain and will have my own domain.

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Ramnarayan.K wrote:

> crux
>



-- 
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Final Year Undergraduate
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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ramnarayan.K]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan
 wrote:
> I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
> Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
> on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
> affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
> default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
> idiot-proof.

I missed an important point in my original  mail but here is one of the crux

What if, just thing about it, what if Canonical asked you to pay. A La
Novell and Closed Suse (as opposed to open suse) or Red Hat

This (at another level) is also applicable to Gmail (and other google services)

Yes people would migrate , maybe, but would you pay. I wouldn't , not
because its about the money because actually i am willing to pay for
services. which is what the open source model offers.

ram

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ninad Pundalik]

Well said, Ashutosh. :)  Totally agree with what you said.

@Ram:  Going OT here, as you expect discussions on the decisions and
not solutions, but I can't resist. :)  A very simple way out, for the
missing applications exists.  I anyway use it pretty regularly, as the
iso's downloaded at my place by most people are the Ubuntu Live ones,
and I'm a Kubuntu guy, plus I install a lot of extra stuff, that I
need once in a blue moon.
When you are about to upgrade, take a dump of all the packages
installed on your system by using dselect.  It gives a nice little
text file with names of packages and their current state
(installed/not installed).  Open that file in an editor, and clean it
of all applications that have specific package version numbers, and
the kernel related packages.  Also clean up other files that you feel
might conflict.  On the new install, again use dselect to mark those
packages for install by letting it import that text file, and then go
ahead and just run apt-get and ask it to take all those markings that
dselect has done.  AFAIK, a way to do this also exists in Synaptic,
but I have not tried really hard to search for it. :)

Ninad S. Pundalik
http://twitter.com/ni_nad
http://ninadpundalik.co.cc/blog
GPG Key Fingerprint: 2DF7 B856 C75E C9F9 0504 C0EF D456 1946 7C45 2C69

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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Ashutosh Rishi Ranjan]

> So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the 
> reactions
> and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just maybe
> we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
>
> I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its subsequent
> setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they should
> for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where to
> source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>
> I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a freer
> system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus many
> of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.

Ubuntu has gone far from being a typical linux distro and its because
of canonical. Ubuntu is now capable of challenging the macintosh and
windows in their own game as a proper all-level consumer product.
Getting its own music-store, thats an amazing feat (and its possible
because of Canonical). Free and open source softwares are good. But in
the main OS battlefield you cannot place your linux OS without a
strong dedicated company (which will steer the advertising and
management) backing it. Of course, the linux OS can be amazing in
functioning, but thats it. It won't create much of an impact on
'everyone'.

Canonical can rightfully guide ubuntu (and its amazing that they do it
as saints). Because ubuntu is getting so popular, its essential for
ubuntu to have Canonical securing its interests. The final decision to
what appears in ubuntu is Canonical's decision and they really have to
base their decision (now) on the fact that ubuntu is being eyed as a
fierce competitor to mac and windows (even though there are other good
linux OS, Ubuntu has entered the consumer stream more deeply). A good
proof of this happening is that all the major softwares when available
for download focus on ubuntu as a major consumer linux OS.

I love Ubuntu because frankly till now I have had no objections to
Canonical's decisions. I weigh their decisions in terms of its effect
on new users not me because I know that the decision won't really
affect me because I can choose what I want after installing the
default. Canonical does not enforce but merely makes their decisions
idiot-proof.

> My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other than
> Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu 
> users
> tried other distro's and what do they feel.
>
> I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make another
> distro do to my bidding.

I tried fedora. Found it not much different from my experience on
ubuntu. Even though Ubuntu is moving to be more idiot-proof, it has
definitely not left behind the powerhouse of linux like what fedora
has. This is the best thing I like about ubuntu. You can team up
old-school and new-school. Plus, I found ubuntu's development and
package managers more better.

Another distro I tried was Archos. Its brilliant! and fun. You can
build your own OS based on your choice. I ruined my OS :P


> My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is your
> secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it, under
> all conditions.

I had windows, ubuntu, fedora on the same computer. For some time I
used fedora more than Ubuntu to see whether I should keep it.
Eventually after a month I removed fedora from my main computer and
gave its space to Ubuntu. Though I have had mad varieties on linux OS
on my laptop. Currently I have Lucid beta1, Ubuntu karmic server and
archos. I use archos mainly.

> My 3rd question is what would you suggest people try as a fall back option in
> case people want to try and alternative.
>
> My suggestions are Pardus, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Fedora, Knoppix
> Others have suggested Arch Linux

I would suggest Fedora and so would Linus Torvald :)

> The few times in the recent past when i tried another distro i very quickly
> reverted back to Ubuntu, since i was uncomfortable around my system but now i
> think its worth exploring an alternative in great earnest.
>
> look forward to reactions
>
> ram
>

For me, I go with the fact that at the end of the day, "Ubuntu is just
linux OS with different packages than other OS, apt-get can get you
anywhere."



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Re: [ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[Arvind Gupta]

Hi Rama
  I got your point and somewhat agree with you. Now ubuntu is
definitely becoming big. So it's likely that not everybody's changes will be
met. I agree with Shuttleworth remarks also when he say it's more about
meritocary than democracy. When a coampny become big it's likely to be
happen in any distro.
   Whar are the other distros you have tried , and which you
like please keep us posting abput that. I have tried fedora also but ubuntu
cleary more user friendly.

cheers
-arvind

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:33, K Ramnarayan  wrote:

> Hi
>
> This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what
> people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.
>
> Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of the
> best
> distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to
> multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the
> very
> decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support.
> Basically i like it very much
>
> Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and
> maybe
> not so minor aspects.
>
> First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g.
> GIMP)
> not big things but when many small things add up they become to big.
>
> Then there is this
> Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth
>
> Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check out
>
> Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy"
> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html
>
> and some related discussions
>
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy
>
> and
>
> http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
> democracy?source=smlynch
>
> **
> There are many reasons to use Linux and one of them, for me, is not to be
> told
> what to do by a corporation. Sure Canonical is not the new M$, i doubt it
> can
> ever become that. (hope not)
>
> But what makes me uncomfortable is the extent of control Canonical is
> exerting
> over its user base. Many Linux folks , now, are first time linuxers changed
> over from Other OS' mainly because of Ubuntu.
>
> So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the
> reactions
> and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just
> maybe
> we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent.
>
> I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its subsequent
> setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they
> should
> for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where
> to
> source software (tuxwire, zyware).
>
> I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a
> freer
> system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus
> many
> of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem.
>
> My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other than
> Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu
> users
> tried other distro's and what do they feel.
>
> I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make another
> distro do to my bidding.
>
> My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is your
> secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it,
> under
> all conditions.
>
> My 3rd question is what would you suggest people try as a fall back option
> in
> case people want to try and alternative.
>
> My suggestions are Pardus, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Fedora, Knoppix
> Others have suggested Arch Linux
>
> The few times in the recent past when i tried another distro i very quickly
> reverted back to Ubuntu, since i was uncomfortable around my system but now
> i
> think its worth exploring an alternative in great earnest.
>
> look forward to reactions
>
> ram
>
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[ubuntu-in] If not Ubuntu then what

[K Ramnarayan]

Hi

This isn't exactly a poll but thought that it would be good to know what 
people would choose if they had to move away from Ubuntu.

Before saying anything i want to put this on record. Ubuntu is one of the best 
distro's i have ever used. , its ease in installation, responsiveness to 
multitude of hardware, the incredibly large and varied repositories, the very 
decent derivatives (Mint, Ultimate etc) . The huge forum and support. 
Basically i like it very much

Over the recent months there has been a lot of chatter about minor and maybe 
not so minor aspects.

First there was the dropping and inclusion of different programmes (e.g. GIMP) 
not big things but when many small things add up they become to big. 

Then there is this
Ubuntu is not a democracy, Mark Shuttleworth

Sounds crazy saying it like that but to read what he had to say check out

Mark Shuttleworth: "This is not a democracy" 
http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/ubuntu-is-not-democratic.html

and some related discussions

http://www.osnews.com/story/23039/Kicking_in_Open_Doors_Open_Source_Is_Not_a_Democracy

and

http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-
democracy?source=smlynch

**
There are many reasons to use Linux and one of them, for me, is not to be told 
what to do by a corporation. Sure Canonical is not the new M$, i doubt it can 
ever become that. (hope not)

But what makes me uncomfortable is the extent of control Canonical is exerting 
over its user base. Many Linux folks , now, are first time linuxers changed 
over from Other OS' mainly because of Ubuntu.

So not debating the specifics of Mark Shuttleworth's comments and the reactions 
and the interpretations, I am getting an uneasy feeling. That maybe just maybe 
we are becoming Ubuntu dependent and too complacent. 

I can walk blindfolded through a typical Ubuntu install and its subsequent 
setup of additional programmes, tweaking programmes to work like they should 
for me.  Knowing what repos to add to get exactly what software and where to 
source software (tuxwire, zyware).

I cannot be happier with what i have. But what if we need to move to a freer 
system. Are there any other distro's out there. Sure there are 600 plus many 
of them with a passionate user base and with its attendant problem. 

My questions are how would people feel about trying out a distro other than 
Ubuntu (specially first time users), in fact have first time linux Ubuntu users 
tried other distro's and what do they feel.

I started of with fedora 1 and went through a variety and can make another 
distro do to my bidding.

My other question is how many of us dual boot a second linux OS and is your 
secondary OS as well set as your primary, are you comfortable with it, under 
all conditions.

My 3rd question is what would you suggest people try as a fall back option in 
case people want to try and alternative.

My suggestions are Pardus, Mandriva, OpenSuse, Fedora, Knoppix
Others have suggested Arch Linux

The few times in the recent past when i tried another distro i very quickly 
reverted back to Ubuntu, since i was uncomfortable around my system but now i 
think its worth exploring an alternative in great earnest.

look forward to reactions

ram

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