Re: Teo and his/her problems

2016-12-12 Thread flocculant 



On 13/12/16 06:21, Dario Ruellan wrote:

[snip]

As a Quality Team, we (or you, I'm not really active here) are not a
customer support, but we need to pay attention when something gets
fantastically wrong, like this case.

Which only works when people talk about specifics.

If they were actually really interested, and get issues as often as they 
apparently do, then why are they not posting to this list during the 6 
months it actually helps to do so?




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Re: Teo and his/her problems

2016-12-12 Thread Dario Ruellan 
On Dec 13, 2016 2:19 AM, "William D Turner"  wrote:

So it makes me wonder what is wrong with Teo's setup that it seems so
unstable? Perhaps we could investigate that aspect rather fight each other.
Just my 2c.


Agree. I was ready to post an answer asking for some specs but got busy and
forgot about it. Teo seems to be the kind of person that likes to customize
and try things on his setup, and we all know is easy to screw up things if
you then try to run a complex automated script like an upgrade, but also
could be an unusual partition setup (new Windows versions are a mess) or
just a hardware problem.

As a Quality Team, we (or you, I'm not really active here) are not a
customer support, but we need to pay attention when something gets
fantastically wrong, like this case.
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Teo and his/her problems

2016-12-12 Thread William D Turner 
I have been using Ubuntu and or one of the derivatives for many years 
now and other than an occasional hiccup never have had any real 
problems. Certainly found them very stable. In fact, for the last few 
years, I have been following the new releases, currently Zesty, by zsync 
every few days and then testing them in VirtualBox. Of course, there are 
sometimes problems with these but the problems seem to be fixed quite 
quickly and the new release stabilizes. Right now I am testing Zesty 
Xubuntu and I like it - other than it still advertises itself as 16.04. 
I believe that it could used as my main system even now.
So it makes me wonder what is wrong with Teo's setup that it seems so 
unstable? Perhaps we could investigate that aspect rather fight each 
other. Just my 2c.

Compliments of the season and best wishes to all who contribute.
Bill  - in the East coast of South Africa

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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- still dead horse, just a clarification.

2016-12-12 Thread Ryein Goddard 
Alright Teo, it sounds like you have a reason to be upset, but you have 
also not provided enough details and have also scared people away with 
the way you have worded things.  People shouldn't call you a troll, but 
you should be aware of how you are treating others and how they expect 
to be treated.  I hope you continue to use Ubuntu and help reporting 
issues that you run into.  People do care about making Ubuntu better.  
Personally I have upgraded several times and things have always gone 
well.  Perhaps if you include more details you could potentially help 
people with a fringe case that weren't aware of.



On 12/12/2016 11:13 AM, Dave Morley wrote:

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:09:22 +
Dave Morley  wrote:


On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:03:08 -0800
Ryein Goddard  wrote:


His concern seems valid.  Seems like a quality control issue.  How
was this possible?


On 12/12/2016 10:39 AM, C de-Avillez wrote:

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 03:45:31 -0500
JMZ  wrote:


On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:



2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to
tremendously obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have
already been fixed upstream (by the way that is usually already
true when the ubuntu release is brand new, let alone two years
later),



I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear
me out. Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who
elect to run LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some
point, maintain the system with more current debs which
approximate the incremental upgrades.  I always follow the
incremental upgrades, as I'd rather fix a version which is
farther along in development than LTS.  I never fully understood
why a individual user would use LTS. LTS is better suited to a
circumstance where uniformity is prized, such as small
businesses, corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is certainly
right that an LTS plan of action has significant deficits.

That might be true (that Teo's concerns may be important).
Nevertheless, s/he behaves in a trollish way, and *intentionally*
has been evading moderation.

S/he is moderated again.

I personally do not care if these concerns are valid or not -- I
stopped reading her/his comments the moment they went to
Trollland.

There are many ways of raising an issue. The way s/he does it is
not acceptable on the Ubuntu ecosystem.

Cheers,

..C..


   

The upgrades are tested repeatedly, in particular for LTS releases.
The issue her is you can't take into account every piece of hardware
in the world, or every piece of software.

We try upgrades with a mix of data and applications, we try from
default install to default install, we try with none default
applications selected as default instead of the default ones, so we
are pretty much covered.

There are corner cases that we just can't test, for that you report a
bug and it is worked on by developers so it doesn't happen again, the
end.


Oh and upgrades are tested in an automated fashion daily too.





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Administrivia -- emailing ubuntu-quality

2016-12-12 Thread C de-Avillez 
Hello,

I would like, given the Teo Teo troll, to point out some things
regarding usage of the ubuntu-quality mailing list.

* aggressive behaviour is NOT acceptable. There are a lot of ways to
  express one's unhappiness with something. Being aggressive is NOT one
  of them. This mailing list (as the others in the Ubuntu echosphere)
  is governed by the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.

* ideally emails to the mailing list should be text only. Not all of us
  accept, or use, rich text (I am one of them that only read email in
  text).

* ideally responses should *quote*; you quote the piece of the email
  you are talking about, then you write your comments.

* there is, usually, no reason to attach video, or link to one (unless
  it is showing the issue being discussed. A response should be able to
  be read at the reader's pleasure.

Thank you,

..C..


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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- still dead horse, just a clarification.

2016-12-12 Thread Dave Morley 
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:09:22 +
Dave Morley  wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:03:08 -0800
> Ryein Goddard  wrote:
> 
> > His concern seems valid.  Seems like a quality control issue.  How
> > was this possible?
> > 
> > 
> > On 12/12/2016 10:39 AM, C de-Avillez wrote:  
> > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 03:45:31 -0500
> > > JMZ  wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >>> 2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to
> > >>> tremendously obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have
> > >>> already been fixed upstream (by the way that is usually already
> > >>> true when the ubuntu release is brand new, let alone two years
> > >>> later),
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >> I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear
> > >> me out. Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who
> > >> elect to run LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some
> > >> point, maintain the system with more current debs which
> > >> approximate the incremental upgrades.  I always follow the
> > >> incremental upgrades, as I'd rather fix a version which is
> > >> farther along in development than LTS.  I never fully understood
> > >> why a individual user would use LTS. LTS is better suited to a
> > >> circumstance where uniformity is prized, such as small
> > >> businesses, corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is certainly
> > >> right that an LTS plan of action has significant deficits.
> > > That might be true (that Teo's concerns may be important).
> > > Nevertheless, s/he behaves in a trollish way, and *intentionally*
> > > has been evading moderation.
> > >
> > > S/he is moderated again.
> > >
> > > I personally do not care if these concerns are valid or not -- I
> > > stopped reading her/his comments the moment they went to
> > > Trollland.
> > >
> > > There are many ways of raising an issue. The way s/he does it is
> > > not acceptable on the Ubuntu ecosystem.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > ..C..
> > >
> > >
> >   
> 
> The upgrades are tested repeatedly, in particular for LTS releases.
> The issue her is you can't take into account every piece of hardware
> in the world, or every piece of software.
> 
> We try upgrades with a mix of data and applications, we try from
> default install to default install, we try with none default
> applications selected as default instead of the default ones, so we
> are pretty much covered.
> 
> There are corner cases that we just can't test, for that you report a
> bug and it is worked on by developers so it doesn't happen again, the
> end.
> 

Oh and upgrades are tested in an automated fashion daily too.

-- 
You Make It, I'll Break It!

I Love My Job :)

http://www.canonical.com
http://www.ubuntu.com


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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- still dead horse, just a clarification.

2016-12-12 Thread Dave Morley 
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:03:08 -0800
Ryein Goddard  wrote:

> His concern seems valid.  Seems like a quality control issue.  How
> was this possible?
> 
> 
> On 12/12/2016 10:39 AM, C de-Avillez wrote:
> > On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 03:45:31 -0500
> > JMZ  wrote:
> >  
> >> On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:
> >>
> >>   
> >>> 2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to
> >>> tremendously obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have
> >>> already been fixed upstream (by the way that is usually already
> >>> true when the ubuntu release is brand new, let alone two years
> >>> later),  
> >> 
> >>
> >> I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear me
> >> out. Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who
> >> elect to run LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some
> >> point, maintain the system with more current debs which
> >> approximate the incremental upgrades.  I always follow the
> >> incremental upgrades, as I'd rather fix a version which is farther
> >> along in development than LTS.  I never fully understood why a
> >> individual user would use LTS. LTS is better suited to a
> >> circumstance where uniformity is prized, such as small businesses,
> >> corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is certainly right that an
> >> LTS plan of action has significant deficits.  
> > That might be true (that Teo's concerns may be important).
> > Nevertheless, s/he behaves in a trollish way, and *intentionally*
> > has been evading moderation.
> >
> > S/he is moderated again.
> >
> > I personally do not care if these concerns are valid or not -- I
> > stopped reading her/his comments the moment they went to Trollland.
> >
> > There are many ways of raising an issue. The way s/he does it is not
> > acceptable on the Ubuntu ecosystem.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > ..C..
> >
> >  
> 

The upgrades are tested repeatedly, in particular for LTS releases.
The issue her is you can't take into account every piece of hardware in
the world, or every piece of software.

We try upgrades with a mix of data and applications, we try from
default install to default install, we try with none default
applications selected as default instead of the default ones, so we are
pretty much covered.

There are corner cases that we just can't test, for that you report a
bug and it is worked on by developers so it doesn't happen again, the
end.

-- 
You Make It, I'll Break It!

I Love My Job :)

http://www.canonical.com
http://www.ubuntu.com


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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- still dead horse, just a clarification.

2016-12-12 Thread Ryein Goddard 
His concern seems valid.  Seems like a quality control issue.  How was 
this possible?



On 12/12/2016 10:39 AM, C de-Avillez wrote:

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 03:45:31 -0500
JMZ  wrote:


On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:



2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to
tremendously obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have
already been fixed upstream (by the way that is usually already
true when the ubuntu release is brand new, let alone two years
later),



I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear me
out. Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who elect
to run LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some point,
maintain the system with more current debs which approximate the
incremental upgrades.  I always follow the incremental upgrades, as
I'd rather fix a version which is farther along in development than
LTS.  I never fully understood why a individual user would use LTS.
LTS is better suited to a circumstance where uniformity is prized,
such as small businesses, corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is
certainly right that an LTS plan of action has significant deficits.

That might be true (that Teo's concerns may be important). Nevertheless,
s/he behaves in a trollish way, and *intentionally* has been evading
moderation.

S/he is moderated again.

I personally do not care if these concerns are valid or not -- I
stopped reading her/his comments the moment they went to Trollland.

There are many ways of raising an issue. The way s/he does it is not
acceptable on the Ubuntu ecosystem.

Cheers,

..C..




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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- still dead horse, just a clarification.

2016-12-12 Thread C de-Avillez 
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 03:45:31 -0500
JMZ  wrote:

> On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:
> 
> 
> > 2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to
> > tremendously obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have
> > already been fixed upstream (by the way that is usually already
> > true when the ubuntu release is brand new, let alone two years
> > later),  
> 
> 
> I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear me
> out. Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who elect
> to run LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some point,
> maintain the system with more current debs which approximate the
> incremental upgrades.  I always follow the incremental upgrades, as
> I'd rather fix a version which is farther along in development than
> LTS.  I never fully understood why a individual user would use LTS.
> LTS is better suited to a circumstance where uniformity is prized,
> such as small businesses, corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is
> certainly right that an LTS plan of action has significant deficits.

That might be true (that Teo's concerns may be important). Nevertheless,
s/he behaves in a trollish way, and *intentionally* has been evading
moderation.

S/he is moderated again.

I personally do not care if these concerns are valid or not -- I
stopped reading her/his comments the moment they went to Trollland.

There are many ways of raising an issue. The way s/he does it is not
acceptable on the Ubuntu ecosystem.

Cheers,

..C..


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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual <- dead horse.

2016-12-12 Thread C de-Avillez 
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 05:56:15 +0100
Alberto Salvia Novella  wrote:

> Teo T.:
> > I guess my biggest mistake was to choose ubuntu in the first
> > place.  
> 
> I'm sorry you didn't like it.
> 
> 

OK. This thread is a dead horse.

And Teo Teo gets to be moderated. Again.

Let´s go back to improve Ubuntu. If anyone has ideas on what/how/why to
do something to improve Ubuntu's quality, by all means use this list.

Aggressiveness, on the other hand, is unacceptable.

Cheers,

..C..


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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread Colin Law 
On 12 December 2016 at 13:54, teo teo  wrote:
> Now you can safely ban me, I made my point which will be ignored as usual.
>
> Don't worry, I'll get a new account for the next upgrade.
>

If you think Ubuntu is such rubbish why do you keep using it?

Colin

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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread Alberto Salvia Novella 

https://youtu.be/O6H79fQaQLI

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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread teo teo 
Now you can safely ban me, I made my point which will be ignored as usual.

Don't worry, I'll get a new account for the next upgrade.

2016-12-12 14:43 GMT+01:00 teo teo :
>> Many times there has been a bug, even when it affected a minority of people, 
>> Teo came here bullshitting this community.
>
> "Bullshitting"??
>
> I don't remember ever lying, exagerating or speaking nonsense. The
> only thing I can be accused of is using bad language, but I have never
> attacked anybody while in fact *I* was repeatedly mocked and insulted.
> Oh, I can also be accused of writing off-topic, to reply to the
> insults and false accusations, like I am now.
>
>> It really doesn't matter if it's Ubuntu or political issues, the goal is 
>> keeping oneself in that mood.
>
> You are very wrong my friend. I hate being in that "mood" and I have
> no goal whatsoever of keeping myself in it. My system breaking at any
> random time because of a minor update, or my computer becoming a
> useless pile of metal when just upgrading the OS, that is the sort of
> things that put me in that mood, as well as seeing how little the "QA"
> community cares about them.
>
>
>> Since Teo is experiencing those problems continuously, and mostly when 
>> upgrading to alpha releases
>
> "alpha" releases?? Are all non-LTS considered "alpha"? Ok, that
> explains a lot of things.
>
> Yes, I am experiencing problems continuously because Ubuntu is full of
> problems, and if it is mostly when upgrading I guess it's because
> upgrades are the weakest point of Ubuntu.
> You should realize that the percentage of people, among those
> experiencing issues, who take the time to write to this mailing list,
> is ridiculously small, so for every one or two users like me who pop
> here every once in a while ranting about some issue there must be
> hundreds of thousands out there silently suffering from them, many of
> them probably just stopping using Ubuntu. Instead of saying "here's a
> troll" you should be taking note that there some serious issue to be
> addressed.
>
>
>> I'm even considering if he isn't simply paid for anti-marketing here
>
> LOL, you are so ridiculous.
> How many end users read this list? Do you really think [that anybody
> would think] that this would be a sensible place for doing any kind of
> marketing or antimarketing?

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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread teo teo 
> Many times there has been a bug, even when it affected a minority of people, 
> Teo came here bullshitting this community.

"Bullshitting"??

I don't remember ever lying, exagerating or speaking nonsense. The
only thing I can be accused of is using bad language, but I have never
attacked anybody while in fact *I* was repeatedly mocked and insulted.
Oh, I can also be accused of writing off-topic, to reply to the
insults and false accusations, like I am now.

> It really doesn't matter if it's Ubuntu or political issues, the goal is 
> keeping oneself in that mood.

You are very wrong my friend. I hate being in that "mood" and I have
no goal whatsoever of keeping myself in it. My system breaking at any
random time because of a minor update, or my computer becoming a
useless pile of metal when just upgrading the OS, that is the sort of
things that put me in that mood, as well as seeing how little the "QA"
community cares about them.


> Since Teo is experiencing those problems continuously, and mostly when 
> upgrading to alpha releases

"alpha" releases?? Are all non-LTS considered "alpha"? Ok, that
explains a lot of things.

Yes, I am experiencing problems continuously because Ubuntu is full of
problems, and if it is mostly when upgrading I guess it's because
upgrades are the weakest point of Ubuntu.
You should realize that the percentage of people, among those
experiencing issues, who take the time to write to this mailing list,
is ridiculously small, so for every one or two users like me who pop
here every once in a while ranting about some issue there must be
hundreds of thousands out there silently suffering from them, many of
them probably just stopping using Ubuntu. Instead of saying "here's a
troll" you should be taking note that there some serious issue to be
addressed.


> I'm even considering if he isn't simply paid for anti-marketing here

LOL, you are so ridiculous.
How many end users read this list? Do you really think [that anybody
would think] that this would be a sensible place for doing any kind of
marketing or antimarketing?

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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread Alberto Salvia Novella 

JMZ:
> I never fully understood why a individual user would use LTS.

There's a good reason for it, which is any software that works is 
warranted to continue working. And that's pretty interesting for both 
the user and the producer.


Most software that is libre is community maintained, without any 
corporation behind it but individuals. Having to check if all that 
software breaks itself every six months proves to be stressful, leading 
many applications in the universe repository intermittently unusable.


Summarising, it's very different that your software breaks because of 
you changing the code than for the code it depends breaking. Where 
applications would benefit from continuous improvement, for the base 
system it's more important to be predictable than to be featured.


This is why snaps were created, for being able to continually upgrade 
applications in LTS while keeping the base system predictable. It's just 
they are been deployed right now.



JMZ:

Teo teo is certainly right that an LTS plan of action has significant
deficits.


Many times there has been a bug, even when it affected a minority of 
people, Teo came here bullshitting this community. Till he even got 
banned from this mailing list and Launchpad, then he created other 
account for continuing.


Let me tell you something, those legit reasons have become an excuse for 
bullshitting. It really doesn't matter if it's Ubuntu or political 
issues, the goal is keeping oneself in that mood.


That said, in eight years using the regular Ubuntu release as my only 
desktop operating system, I have only experience upgrade problems once. 
The same goes for all the people I have installed Ubuntu in their 
computers, they have always been able to upgrade.


Since Teo is experiencing those problems continuously, and mostly when 
upgrading to alpha releases, I'm even considering if he isn't simply 
paid for anti-marketing here as the cyberattacks we have been 
experiencing are. Curiously both started at the same time.



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Re: Upgrade was a disaster as usual

2016-12-12 Thread JMZ 

On 12/11/2016 07:12 PM, teo teo wrote:



2) sticking to an LTS for 2 f***ing years means sticking to tremendously
obsolete software, usually full of bugs that have already been fixed
upstream (by the way that is usually already true when the ubuntu release
is brand new, let alone two years later),



I know, someone's going to think, "don't feed the troll".  Hear me out. 
Teo teo's concerns about LTS are not trollish.  Users who elect to run 
LTS rather than incremental releases must, at some point, maintain the 
system with more current debs which approximate the incremental 
upgrades.  I always follow the incremental upgrades, as I'd rather fix a 
version which is farther along in development than LTS.  I never fully 
understood why a individual user would use LTS. LTS is better suited to 
a circumstance where uniformity is prized, such as small businesses, 
corporations, libraries etc.  Teo teo is certainly right that an LTS 
plan of action has significant deficits.


Jordan

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