Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 11:14 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:
> Ralf,
> 
> 
> A commonly used way is to let inkscape trace it automatically:
> path->trace bitmap.
> 
> 
> The results are not perfect, far from it, but it is a way to get a
> starting point that is managable in combination with 'path ->
> simplify' when needed.
> 
> 
> I use that technique very often when I'm asked to make a poster and
> they deliver the logo's of the sponsors in a way to low resolution
> (80px - 120px for example). It has been a lifesaver numerous times.
> 
> 
> When it's about shapes, I always keep the conversion to path as the
> last part, the moment when it has to be deformed to 'not being a shape
> (square, circle, star, triangle... ) anymore.
> 
> 
> A lasso tool for selecting nodes would come in very handy indeed,
> though with shift and drag-selecting I never really had issues. It are
> default buttons in all applications when it's about selecting several
> items. [snip]

Thank you Bart,

this are helpful hints. If possible I try to test it today.

Regards,
Ralf



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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[bart deruyter]

Ralf,

A commonly used way is to let inkscape trace it automatically: path->trace
bitmap.

The results are not perfect, far from it, but it is a way to get a starting
point that is managable in combination with 'path -> simplify' when needed.

I use that technique very often when I'm asked to make a poster and they
deliver the logo's of the sponsors in a way to low resolution (80px - 120px
for example). It has been a lifesaver numerous times.

When it's about shapes, I always keep the conversion to path as the last
part, the moment when it has to be deformed to 'not being a shape (square,
circle, star, triangle... ) anymore.

A lasso tool for selecting nodes would come in very handy indeed, though
with shift and drag-selecting I never really had issues. It are default
buttons in all applications when it's about selecting several items.

About inkscapes usability, I have used indesign and illustrator in the past
too (quite some years ago though) and I do find Inkscape easier to use.
Perhaps I should try a newer illustrator to check how they compare today
:-).

Grtz,

Bart

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2012/8/26 Ralf Mardorf 

> On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 10:09 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:
>
> > If you want a real drawing on a computer, grab a pencil and paper and
> > draw, then scan it in.
> > If you want digital images, use your computer, fiddle around with
> > vector graphics or 3D graphics or even gimp, mypaint and equivalents.
>
> If you need svg for icons you can't paint with a pencil on paper and
> simply scan it :(. After scanning an outline drawing, it's nice to work
> with an app like GIMP. Inkscape allows to draw Bezier curves, over the
> outlines you already have drawn and then scanned. I wonder if there's no
> way to automate this, instead of using tons of mouse movements and mouse
> clicks. Isn't there some kind of magnetic lasso for Bezire curves? Or at
> least some functionality as I described is provided by neu.Draw, where
> it's possible to add some nodes to objects as a circle, while handling
> those nodes also is easier, than it is for Inkscape. Perhaps Inkscape
> has got all that functionality, but I can't find it.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
>
>
>
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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 10:09 +0200, bart deruyter wrote:

> If you want a real drawing on a computer, grab a pencil and paper and
> draw, then scan it in.
> If you want digital images, use your computer, fiddle around with
> vector graphics or 3D graphics or even gimp, mypaint and equivalents.

If you need svg for icons you can't paint with a pencil on paper and
simply scan it :(. After scanning an outline drawing, it's nice to work
with an app like GIMP. Inkscape allows to draw Bezier curves, over the
outlines you already have drawn and then scanned. I wonder if there's no
way to automate this, instead of using tons of mouse movements and mouse
clicks. Isn't there some kind of magnetic lasso for Bezire curves? Or at
least some functionality as I described is provided by neu.Draw, where
it's possible to add some nodes to objects as a circle, while handling
those nodes also is easier, than it is for Inkscape. Perhaps Inkscape
has got all that functionality, but I can't find it.

Regards,
Ralf



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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[bart deruyter]

I am sceptic too about workflow and ease of working to get to a certain
result but in my opinion though, many, if not most think in a strange way
about the tools and workflows offered.

It's like the discussion I've heard oh so often about synthesizers and
synthesized sounds, discussions about the most realistic and natural sounds
of which synthesizer. Synthesizers are synthesized, hence artificial
sounding by definition. If you want realistic sounds, buy a sampler go out
and sample the sounds from where they come.

The same thing counts for drawing and graphics in general.
If you want a real drawing on a computer, grab a pencil and paper and draw,
then scan it in.
If you want digital images, use your computer, fiddle around with vector
graphics or 3D graphics or even gimp, mypaint and equivalents.

Don't turn things around, and try to get a analog result with digital
tools, or a digital result with analog tools. I don't use my classical
guitar to create a techno beat. I use a sequencer and a drumcomputer and
neither do I try to create a classical guitar-tune using fluidsynth or even
linuxsampler... I grab my guitar and play it.



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2012/8/26 Ralf Mardorf 

> On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 08:50 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
> > example of what inkscape can create/edit.
> > >
> > > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png
> >
> > No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush
> > like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing
> > app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where
> > drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,
> > perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ralf
>
> PS: Nobody can pay for Layout pencils and the needed paper nowadays, but
> with Layout pencils you'll get a very similar result in a few minutes.
> Of course, such pencil drawings don't last for very long.
>
> So, I'm not against working with a computer ;). I'm just skeptic that
> Inkscape is ok. When I asked about apps that can replace screen tone on
> the US devel list, nobody knows a Linux app. If you ask for good NLVE
> the coders explain why we don't have it for Linux. So it's not a shame,
> since programing complex good apps is expensive and often can't be done
> by FLOSS, resp. programing a good app like Ardour2 did take a long time,
> some years ago Linux audio was unusable.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 08:50 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
> example of what inkscape can create/edit.
> > 
> > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png
> 
> No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush
> like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing
> app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where
> drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,
> perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.
> 
> Regards,
> Ralf

PS: Nobody can pay for Layout pencils and the needed paper nowadays, but
with Layout pencils you'll get a very similar result in a few minutes.
Of course, such pencil drawings don't last for very long.

So, I'm not against working with a computer ;). I'm just skeptic that
Inkscape is ok. When I asked about apps that can replace screen tone on
the US devel list, nobody knows a Linux app. If you ask for good NLVE
the coders explain why we don't have it for Linux. So it's not a shame,
since programing complex good apps is expensive and often can't be done
by FLOSS, resp. programing a good app like Ardour2 did take a long time,
some years ago Linux audio was unusable.




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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:06 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
> "and this is very time consuming to learn"
> 
> In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is
> to learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes
> and after several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop".
> However, I can now whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever
> even dreamed about and do it in just a few minutes.
> 
> So my advice is...
> 
> If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't,
> then get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to
> use the tools that do work.
> 
> Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic
> quick recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour,
> but expect it to require a learning curve.

I didn't need much time to use GIMP and Ardour2. Well, today they change
GIMP with every release and it becomes less good usable and I'm for sure
not the only one who dislikes new versions of GIMP, however it's still
usable within some minutes. I heard that new versions of Photoshop
should also be less good usable, the artists I know use oldish versions
of Photoshop and they payed a lot of money for the upgrades, but only
get useless special FX. I don't know any artist using vector graphics,
but seemingly a lot of artists use vector graphics.
IMO there are intuitive workflows, e.g. using Ardour2 is near to the
usage of analog gear. I didn't had issues using old Photoshop and old
GIMP myself and never heard of somebody having issues.
The people I know and myself started making music and drawing before
computers were available for everybody and later in the 80s I started
making music with a C64, then with the Atari, serious drawing wasn't
possible at that time.
Perhaps the workflows nowadays aren't made for people of my generation.
OTOH I suspect that also young people switched to Xfce ;), to get back
an old faithful workflow.

So my criticism isn't about the complexity, but the workflow.

FWIW the workflow already starts with how to handle startup and I
suspect that a lot of old computer users soon or later will drop Linux.
It might be that at least 'm just a dino.

On Sun, 2012-08-26 at 01:13 -0400, Melvin Ray Herr wrote:
example of what inkscape can create/edit.
> 
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png

No doubt about it, this isn't a deformed animal, but it's still airbrush
like. A painting like this by airbrush or by brush or by a pixel drawing
app does take a long time too. I've got doubts that the outlines where
drawn directly with a mouse. It looks a lot like a classic drawing,
perhaps it was traced against a drawing or photo.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Melvin Ray Herr]

example of what inkscape can create/edit.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Inkscape0.45.png
On Aug 26, 2012 1:06 AM, "Melvin Ray Herr" 
wrote:

> "and this is very time consuming to learn"
>
> In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is to
> learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes and after
> several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop". However, I can now
> whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever even dreamed about and do
> it in just a few minutes.
>
> So my advice is...
>
> If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't,
> then get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to use the
> tools that do work.
>
> Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic quick
> recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour, but expect
> it to require a learning curve.
> On Aug 25, 2012 8:17 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:
>> > [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,
>> > mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control
>> > over them.
>> > [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of
>> > things. [snip]
>>
>> I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you
>> need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use
>> Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what
>> drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also
>> need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.
>>
>> I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with
>> Inkscape.
>>
>> Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:
>>
>> http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg
>>
>> But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad
>> you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is
>> intuitive to manipulate.
>>
>> Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of
>> them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO
>> are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for
>> artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you
>> can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it
>> crashes more often, than you can draw.
>>
>> But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,
>> that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a
>> Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,
>> resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.
>>
>> I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are
>> some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It
>> also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.
>> However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims
>> it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I
>> didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.
>>
>> However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it
>> with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know
>> if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long
>> it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed
>> enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten
>> drawing.
>>
>> The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace
>> over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but
>> they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,
>> plants etc..
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
>>
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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Melvin Ray Herr]

"and this is very time consuming to learn"

In general, the more versatile the tool, the more time consuming it is to
learn. I learned to use "paint" effectively in just a few minutes and after
several years I'm still learning how to use "photoshop". However, I can now
whip out a design that "paint users" haven't ever even dreamed about and do
it in just a few minutes.

So my advice is...

If neu.Draw does what you need it to do, great! use it! If it doesn't, then
get used to the idea of needing to spend some time learning to use the
tools that do work.

Another example that I'm sure you can relate to. If you want basic quick
recording of audio, use audacity. If you need more, use ardour, but expect
it to require a learning curve.
On Aug 25, 2012 8:17 PM, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:
> > [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,
> > mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control
> > over them.
> > [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of
> > things. [snip]
>
> I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you
> need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use
> Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what
> drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also
> need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.
>
> I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with
> Inkscape.
>
> Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:
>
> http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg
>
> But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad
> you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is
> intuitive to manipulate.
>
> Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of
> them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO
> are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for
> artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you
> can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it
> crashes more often, than you can draw.
>
> But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,
> that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a
> Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,
> resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.
>
> I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are
> some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It
> also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.
> However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims
> it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I
> didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.
>
> However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it
> with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know
> if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long
> it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed
> enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten
> drawing.
>
> The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace
> over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but
> they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,
> plants etc..
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
>
>
>
>
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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 18:06 -0500, HaPK wrote:
> [snip] To work with Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit,
> mathematically how they work, and then you may have a bit more control
> over them.
> [snip] Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of
> things. [snip]

I don't agree. Regarding to Inkscape I do agree, resp. I don't think you
need to know about the math, you need to have the skills to use
Inkscape. IOW you need to know what capabilities/advantages and what
drawbacks it has got and this is very time consuming to learn. You also
need practice in using a mouse or have the gift to use a mouse.

I started with neu.Draw on an iPad and then wanted to continue with
Inkscape.

Here is the example how to make a circle, become a hand:
http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/077/Purple/v4/6b/0a/b9/6b0ab93e-914c-4514-e7d9-478aff5c9038/mzl.exutsrow.480x480-75.jpg

But you don't need to do it that way, drawing with the finger on an iPad
you already can draw a good curve, that after doing that, in addition is
intuitive to manipulate.

Only drawbacks, it's missing many features Inkscape has got, but most of
them perhaps aren't that important for artists, all those special FX IMO
are more useful for amateurs, but of course, some are missing for
artists too. The other drawbacks are that you only can export, but you
can't import pictures from another OS and that the app isn't stable, it
crashes more often, than you can draw.

But IMO the main advantage is something Inkscape is missing completely,
that you can draw very good using your fingers and that manipulating a
Bezier or object is very easy and doesn't need tons of mouse movements,
resp. doesn't need tons of finger movements.

I don't know vector drawing apps for Windows and Mac, perhaps there are
some proprietary and FLOSS that can be used similar easy as neu.Draw. It
also might be that there are some for Linux too, that I would like.
However, at least Xara doesn't know how to handle SVG. The Wiki claims
it does, I should reboot and test it on different Linux installs, I
didn't use Ubuntu Studio today.

However, if you want to draw Icons for Ubuntu Studio, you can't do it
with pixel orientated apps, because SVG files are needed. I don't know
if I really would contribute with icons, I just wanted to test how long
it takes to make an icon using a vector drawing app. Until now I needed
enough time to make a fresco, but only got an unfinished kindergarten
drawing.

The only good drawings done with Inkscape on YouTube where made by trace
over another drawing, resp. some where ok without doing it that way, but
they where done in a specific style, deformed, airbrush like animals,
plants etc..

Regards,
Ralf




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Re: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[HaPK]

To draw with vectors is harder than drawing with pixels. To work with
Bezier curves you need to understand, a bit, mathematically how they work,
and then you may have a bit more control over them.

Even though, to start drawing with vectors only is very difficult, it's
easier to have something to begin with, a drawing made by hand or with a
tablet, then trace over that. I find out easier to draw Bezier curves with
a mouse and keyboard rather than a tablet, with inkscape.

I did this picture using inkscape, (
http://HaPK.deviantart.com/art/Mysticus-320210516?qo=1&catpath=gallery:hapk:51187&order=0&offset=1)
but I did some sketches using mypaint and a tablet.

Vectors need more skill, and are suitable for a range of things. But if you
prefer using pixels that's ok too.
El 25/08/2012 17:18, "Ralf Mardorf"  escribió:

> On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 23:12 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9N7F2friM&feature=related
>
> Apologize, by all the short and quick views I had to do, I didn't see
> that it's a picture drawn with what app ever and then they show how to
> draw the dog in a way, they all did with the photos of their
> girlfriends, using Inkscape. Does this work better with a Windows
> version of Inkscape? If I does it that way on Linux, the Bezier curve
> doesn't fit that perfect to everything. Sometimes there aren't movements
> when I try to fit the curve to my imagination. I didn't draw the Bezier
> above another picture, perhaps it's the only way and to add as much
> nodes as possible.
>
> I've got the impression that Inkscape doesn't provide good tools as I
> know from neu.Draw. This "Bezier curve"-pencil at least seems to be less
> usable with a mouse. Most tutorials only draw balls, deformed animals,
> but drawings when control is needed, this perhaps only can be made with
> a tablet.
>
> A simple icon perhaps can be drawn using the mouse, however, I guess I
> can't start with a circle, but need to start with a Bezier.
>
> At the moment I'm uncertain, if I again should waste time. It looks like
> a tablet is needed and that even then the pictures won't become as nice,
> as when using a pixel orientated app like GIMP.
>
> YMMV,
> Ralf
>
>
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PS: [solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

I now understand how it works using a mouse. With a sporting injury the
tons of movements and clicks do hurt too much. Even if it won't cause
pain for me, IMO it has less to do with drawing. It's more constructing
a picture and for me it doesn't make fun at the moment. It's easy to
draw wrongly and needs a lot of knowledge about how to use Inkscape to
correct it. Nothing can be done intuitive.
I like some results and it's ok how those results were made, but I guess
it's not the way I like to make art.
Perhaps I will try to make a single icon, but I don't think I'll
continue today and I don't think I ever will become a fan of Inkscape.
It does explain why that much drawings, comics, icons, logos nowadays do
look that similar, even while a lot of them are very good.

Regards,
Ralf


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[solved] How to use Inkscape? - objects and nodes

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2012-08-25 at 23:12 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9N7F2friM&feature=related

Apologize, by all the short and quick views I had to do, I didn't see
that it's a picture drawn with what app ever and then they show how to
draw the dog in a way, they all did with the photos of their
girlfriends, using Inkscape. Does this work better with a Windows
version of Inkscape? If I does it that way on Linux, the Bezier curve
doesn't fit that perfect to everything. Sometimes there aren't movements
when I try to fit the curve to my imagination. I didn't draw the Bezier
above another picture, perhaps it's the only way and to add as much
nodes as possible.

I've got the impression that Inkscape doesn't provide good tools as I
know from neu.Draw. This "Bezier curve"-pencil at least seems to be less
usable with a mouse. Most tutorials only draw balls, deformed animals,
but drawings when control is needed, this perhaps only can be made with
a tablet.

A simple icon perhaps can be drawn using the mouse, however, I guess I
can't start with a circle, but need to start with a Bezier.

At the moment I'm uncertain, if I again should waste time. It looks like
a tablet is needed and that even then the pictures won't become as nice,
as when using a pixel orientated app like GIMP.

YMMV,
Ralf


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