Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-23 Thread Jai Harrison 
Hey,

I'd just like to correct the misconception about audio format support
in Windows XP. Windows XP only comes with WMA playback support! MP3
codecs cost money to the user and,although most machines bought with
Windows on have had the MP3 codecs installed, it doesn't make MP3
support a part of Windows XP because it's not.

Jai

2009/7/18 Sean Miller :
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 12:02 PM, LeeGroups wrote:
>> Yes, I can remember playing chess (against the computer!) on a 1K  ZX81...
>> ...well I say 1K, think the video used some memory, so the program was
>> less then 700 bytes and it still played a good game of chess...
>
> They managed to create a half-decent platform game for it.  Came out
> when the '81 was in its dotage, but it was pretty impressive
> considering how little memory they had to play with.
>
> Do you remember when one company released a game for the Spectrum with
> a dongle that added additional memory?  It was an adventure game of
> sorts... the name will come to be at some stage, I'm sure... but it's
> missing at the moment - have a vision of the box in my head, but no
> more... something of something or other I think... :-)
>
> Those were heady days.  Remember the TV documentary on Imagine, the
> software company, that started out as "how a modern software
> development company works" and ended up documenting their demise.
> Imagine had a similar plan to do a piece of software with a dongle
> ("Bandersnatch", I think it was called) but after they folded it never
> saw the light of day.
>
> How easy it must be these days for programmers, with so much memory
> available.  Don't even have to consider that aspect.   Just make it as
> big as you like and then tell the users they have to upgrade to play
> it.
>
> Never used to happen on a 32k BBC Micro or a 48k Spectrum.  The
> programmers MADE it possible.
>
> Lamentations..
>
> Sean
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-18 Thread Sean Miller 
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 12:02 PM, LeeGroups wrote:
> Yes, I can remember playing chess (against the computer!) on a 1K  ZX81...
> ...well I say 1K, think the video used some memory, so the program was
> less then 700 bytes and it still played a good game of chess...

They managed to create a half-decent platform game for it.  Came out
when the '81 was in its dotage, but it was pretty impressive
considering how little memory they had to play with.

Do you remember when one company released a game for the Spectrum with
a dongle that added additional memory?  It was an adventure game of
sorts... the name will come to be at some stage, I'm sure... but it's
missing at the moment - have a vision of the box in my head, but no
more... something of something or other I think... :-)

Those were heady days.  Remember the TV documentary on Imagine, the
software company, that started out as "how a modern software
development company works" and ended up documenting their demise.
Imagine had a similar plan to do a piece of software with a dongle
("Bandersnatch", I think it was called) but after they folded it never
saw the light of day.

How easy it must be these days for programmers, with so much memory
available.  Don't even have to consider that aspect.   Just make it as
big as you like and then tell the users they have to upgrade to play
it.

Never used to happen on a 32k BBC Micro or a 48k Spectrum.  The
programmers MADE it possible.

Lamentations..

Sean

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-18 Thread LeeGroups 


Sean Miller wrote:
> 3GB of RAM shouldn't be necessary... software these days are so bloated.
>
> Kids these days wouldn't believe what our galiant heros managed to
> extract out of 48k back in the good old days... not to mention the
> last generation of games on the 1k ZX81.
>
> Sean
Yes, I can remember playing chess (against the computer!) on a 1K  ZX81...
...well I say 1K, think the video used some memory, so the program was 
less then 700 bytes and it still played a good game of chess...

Lee


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-18 Thread James Milligan 
On 18 Jul 2009, at 10:54, Sean Miller  wrote:

> 3GB of RAM shouldn't be necessary... software these days are so  
> bloated.
>
> Kids these days wouldn't believe what our galiant heros managed to
> extract out of 48k back in the good old days... not to mention the
> last generation of games on the 1k ZX81.
>
> Sean

Oh I know believe me. Most games only need a gig max, Sims 3 and one  
other are the only ones I know that need that much. The other one is a  
much more high-end game, massively more detailed than Sims 3, so EA  
Games have obviously done some bad coding in the fact that it needs  
that much memory.

I do agree that 3 gig is probably overdoing it, but it means that  
their computer -will- run faster to the end user.

James

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-18 Thread Sean Miller 
3GB of RAM shouldn't be necessary... software these days are so bloated.

Kids these days wouldn't believe what our galiant heros managed to
extract out of 48k back in the good old days... not to mention the
last generation of games on the 1k ZX81.

Sean

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-18 Thread James Milligan 
On 16 Jul 2009, at 22:28, LeeGroups  wrote:

>
>> People do want a work out of the box machine, and Ubuntu isnt totally
>> out of the box, it does need other bits and pieces added, and  
>> unless you
>> know that, it doesnt work how most people are used to having a  
>> machine
>> work. Unless you spend a lot of time reading through the pages and  
>> pages
>> of the Ubuntu wiki, you wouldnt know that there are extra  
>> repositories
>> that you need, to get certain things that you have already  
>> installed on
>> a Windows machine. I went for months before I got shown about  
>> medibuntu.
>> The forum helps in some respects but you get told on there, read the
>> wiki, or plough through searches on the forum, and then come back and
>> ask, if you cant get it to work.
>>
>> I wanted to try get connected apart from my network at home through
>> wireless, you cannot do that without knowing how to use the terminal,
>> dongles from any of the main mobile carriers, wont work, just by
>> plugging it in, so no wireless outside of the house. I had to get  
>> told
>> about Bluetooth and Joiku spot, but Joiku spot wouldnt work with my  
>> 8.04
>> version, but it does now.
>>
>> Each upgrade, could essentially cause the computer not to work. I  
>> went
>> from partitioning on 8.04 working to upgrading to 8.10, and not  
>> working.
>> My only visit to the London Lug and two people working on the machine
>> couldnt get it to work, froze the minute it got to the log in screen,
>> uninstalled the installed from a different cd, not a chance, then  
>> 9.10
>> came along, and it works again, but without a lot of the desktop  
>> extras.
>> Its the graphics card its not good enough. I have to thank Michael
>> Fletcher for spending quite a lot of time on the phone and pc to pc
>> working with it to get it to work. Same with adding Ubuntu onto my
>> netbook, it came with Linux lite, that took a while, and a lot of  
>> work
>> to get it how it is now. Thanks to Michael again.
>>
>> There is something to Ubuntu not being a contender like Windows and  
>> Mac,
>> so many people take their Linux machines back, because they cant  
>> get it
>> to connect to their internet connection, and that is before you even
>> start with everything else. When I got my little netbook from the  
>> shop,
>> they warned me, you do realise it most likely wont work, keep the
>> receipt. This particular shop no longer stocks this netbook with  
>> Linux,
>> because they had so many bought back.
>>
>>
> I see what you're saying, but to balance the viewpoint, many people
> (esp. when talking about Linux) seem to gloss over a lot of Windows
> failings.
>
> Windows "just works out of the box". Well kind of, once you've  
> installed
> an office suite, and some antivirus, antimalware, a codec pack in case
> you're not using MS approved codecs, a pile of drivers (for your
> printer, scanner, 3G dongle, graphics tablet), a better browser and  
> mail
> client.
>
> Then (like my sister last week) you spend £30 on a game (Sims 3) and 
>  it
> doesn't run (keeps crashing).  The handbooks says "update your  
> drivers",
> but as Sims 3 didn't come with a driver CD (like the
> printer/scanner/graphics table) you're lost and call your bro. He digs
> out the right page on the HP website, writes large email detailing  
> what
> to do. This doesn't work, Sims 3 still crashes. This time the unpaid
> tech support gets the drivers direct from Intel, this doesn't work
> either as the laptop is whining that the existing drivers have been
> 'specially modified by the manufacturer to improve performance on this
> computer' and won't let the Intel drivers install. Another large email
> detailing uninstalling the drivers, rebooting, installing the Intel
> drivers, etc. This fixes the issue, but leaves the screen set to a
> whacky resolution, another email later, the Sims finally works.
>
> I'd like to say this kind of thing is uncommon, but if you're 'unpaid
> tech support' you see an awful lot of it, if you're paid tech support,
> you'll see this kind of thing daily. So - 'works out of the box' I
> wouldn't exactly say it does. I've been using Windows professionally
> since V2.0 demo came out... and it hasn't exactly been bed of roses...
>
> Lee

I'd have to agree wth the out of the box thing for Windows - half of  
my time is spent gettin drivers etc for each PC that we set up. Waste  
of time I tell you, especially when the customer elects to have no  
antivirus, and downloads 1 torrent loaded with malware that puts their  
computer back once again into the dark ages.

The worst thing is that they don't often understand what the problem  
is and how to stop it - "everyone uses that site" "it's been running  
for years" and "it's my kid(s)" are the most common excuses i've heard.

The only saviour I suppose is the Universal Driver Disks that some  
people create (and also driverpacks.net I think is the address for my  
favourite one). They contain a massive amount

Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Matthew Daubney 
On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 05:16 +0100, Sean Miller wrote:



> And I'm not quite sure what the objections to the music clients are
> either... are you bemoaning the lack of iTunes, perchance?  I
> certainly don't miss Windows Media Player!!  Bloatware of the highest
> order.
> 
> Sean
> 

I have to admit, I find most of the music players in Linux a bit
lacking. I can't quite place my finger on it though. If I can overcome
my objections to using monodevelop (most of which have become
unjustified recently) I might find some time to scratch this itch by
attacking banshee with a big "Give me a better interface RARR"
stick. 

But I think UI is a personal thing, so it may just be me!

-Matt Daubney


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Sean Miller 
I've never encountered such behaviour.

Strange...

Sean

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Rowan Berkeley 
Sean Miller  said:
> What's wrong with the e-mailer? You have a choice of multiple e-mail
> clients, Evolution and Thunderbird being the most popular, but there 
> are many others in the repos. Far better than Outlook Express or 
> whatever.

Rob Beard  said:
> What E-Mail application and Music Player are you using? Maybe someone
> could suggest alternatives? I personally use Thunderbird myself.

In both cases I am referring to the default clients, Evolution and
Rhythmbox. I have explained the difficulties in recent posts here.
Evolution does not integrate with the Mail Notifier. It is necessary to
set up the Mail Notifier pointing to the same external email account as
Evolution, in order to create a Default Keyring password, which
Evolution requires in order to open. Nevertheless, the Mail Notifier's
tray icon and Evolution's own taskbar notifier check independently for
new email. As for Rhythmbox, it populates its music library according to
tag versions which are not always accessible via EasyTag. An additional
problem is that Evolution asks every time the library is repopulated for
an mp3 tag demuxer, which it then cannot find in the repositories,
though apparently this does exist there, in one of the many 'good',
'bad' and 'ugly' gstreamer plugins. Banshee, incidentally, seems unable
to read some tags which according to EasyTag are properly written.





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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Alan Lord (News) 
On 17/07/09 08:29, Rob Beard wrote:
> Rowan Berkeley wrote:
>> However, on my new machine, a 'Linux Emporium' Lenovo N-500 running
>> Ubuntu 9.04, there are no problems at all. I would say that Ubuntu falls
>> short in its applications clients, notably the music player and
>> e-mailer.
>>
> What E-Mail application and Music Player are you using?
>
> Maybe someone could suggest alternatives?
>
> I personally use Thunderbird myself.

Yep. I use Thunderbird (am currently using the developer release for 
TB3) and Lightning (The Calendaring extension).

For music I use Songbird. It is based on the Mozilla Gecko engine and is 
extremely extensible. There are lots of plugins etc. It isn't perfect, 
podcast support is missing currently but on the roadmap, but it is 
pretty good IMHO.

HTH

Al




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Rob Beard 
Rowan Berkeley wrote:
> However, on my new machine, a 'Linux Emporium' Lenovo N-500 running
> Ubuntu 9.04, there are no problems at all. I would say that Ubuntu falls
> short in its applications clients, notably the music player and
> e-mailer.
>   
What E-Mail application and Music Player are you using?

Maybe someone could suggest alternatives?

I personally use Thunderbird myself.

Rob


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Rob Beard 
William Anderson wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>   
>> [snip]
>>
>> Just wait. October will be even more fun as people try to upgrade from  
>> vista to 7.  I've already told a few it's going to cost them more than the  
>> usual couple of pints to sort the mess out.
>> 
>
> From what I've heard, upgrading from Vista to 7 RC is pretty straight
> forward ...
>
> -n
>   
But Windows 7 RC isn't a retail release. In Europe Windows 7 E won't 
have an upgrade option... - http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3174

To quote the blog...

"As my blogging colleague Ed Bott notes, it’s a case of good news and 
bad news for users in Europe . The 
good: European customers will be able to buy a full retail version of 
Windows 7 E at the same price as the usually cheaper upgrade version, at 
least for the rest of this year. (*The fine print: “Upgrade price 
available for full editions of retail packaged product until at least 
Dec. 31, 2009.”*) The bad: There will be no upgrade version for Windows 
7 E users, and they will have to do a clean install in order to put 
Windows 7 E on their systems.

The reasoning for no Windows 7 E upgrade seems to be that there isn’t an 
equivalent version of Vista — with Internet Explorer removed — from 
which European users could/should upgrade."

So it's good that you're getting a retail version at upgrade prices 
(which means you'll hopefully be able to transfer the license from one 
machine to another) but you'll have to do a clean install.

That's not to say that someone might work out how to do an upgrade, or 
release a utility to make reinstalling easier.

Rob



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-17 Thread Rob Beard 
Steve wrote:
>
> Just wait. October will be even more fun as people try to upgrade from  
> vista to 7.  I've already told a few it's going to cost them more than the  
> usual couple of pints to sort the mess out.
>   
Yup, no doubt a good few hours backing up gigs of data, photos, music, 
videos no doubt.

Rob


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Sean Miller 
What's wrong with the e-mailer?

You have a choice of multiple e-mail clients: evolution and
Thunderbird being the most popular, but there are many others in the
repos.

Far better than Outlook Express or whatever.

And I'm not quite sure what the objections to the music clients are
either... are you bemoaning the lack of iTunes, perchance?  I
certainly don't miss Windows Media Player!!  Bloatware of the highest
order.

Sean

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Rowan Berkeley 
Lee wrote:

> ... the laptop is whining that the existing drivers have been
'specially modified by the manufacturer to improve performance on this
computer' and won't let the Intel drivers install.

That is exactly what was wrong with my 'Linux Certified' machine. Online
Ubuntu updates had the effect of disabling its Ethernet interface,
because a non-standard driver had been used to suit the hardware. I
loaded it with a standard driver by replacing the entire Ubuntu
operating system from a Live CD. It worked fine, updates and all, for
three months and then burned out somewhere in the chipset. I have
returned it and demanded a refund, on the grounds of its inability to
serve the function for which it was supplied. In case of refusal, I
shall want to know how to apply pressure regarding the suppliers' use of
the name 'Linux Certified', which is obviously unwarranted.

However, on my new machine, a 'Linux Emporium' Lenovo N-500 running
Ubuntu 9.04, there are no problems at all. I would say that Ubuntu falls
short in its applications clients, notably the music player and
e-mailer.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Daniel Drummond 
William Anderson wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>   
>> [snip]
>>
>> Just wait. October will be even more fun as people try to upgrade from  
>> vista to 7.  I've already told a few it's going to cost them more than the  
>> usual couple of pints to sort the mess out.
>> 
>
> From what I've heard, upgrading from Vista to 7 RC is pretty straight
> forward ...
>
> -n
>
>   
Yeah, but there is no upgrade path for the E edition:

 From Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_84367553_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1000321063&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=special-product-offers-3&pf_rd_r=0VK1CGRWR4HF3J8C5951&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=470371973&pf_rd_i=B002DUCMT2

"Since only the full product is available, please note that when you 
install the E edition of Windows 7, you'll need to do a custom (clean) 
installation. That means you'll need to back up all of your files and 
settings, install the operating system, then re-install your files, 
settings and programs. Be sure to check out Amazon’s great selection of 
external
 
storage devices in our electronics store that will assist you in this 
process. "

Doesn't sound like an easy upgrade path. Don't you just love that sudo 
update-manager -d is so simple??

Dan


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread William Anderson 
Steve wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Just wait. October will be even more fun as people try to upgrade from  
> vista to 7.  I've already told a few it's going to cost them more than the  
> usual couple of pints to sort the mess out.

>From what I've heard, upgrading from Vista to 7 RC is pretty straight
forward ...

-n

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Liam Proven 
2009/7/16 Rob Beard :

> Actually this is a common misconception.  A default installation of
> Windows XP from an original installation CD doesn't come with much.  You
> get the OS, Internet Explorer, and one or two apps (Media Player,
> Notepad, Wordpad, Paint, Windows Messenger, Outlook Express*).

That's quite a lot, really. Enough to get them in trouble with the EU,
the American government being too craven to hit 'em where it hurts.

The only reason the EU version of Windows 7 will be "crippled" by not
having IE, WMP & a couple of other things is that MS refused the EU's
suggested solution, which is to offer the new user a choice of browser
etc. Couldn't be seen to be promoting rival products, oh no.

Of course, they *do* promote rival products - e.g. search engines in IE 7 & 8.

But Ubuntu does of course come with a lot more - just not the media
drivers and things most people need. But there are legal reasons for
that.


> Depends on which version of Ubuntu you have.

The 3G support only came in in 8.10. You can retro-fit it to 8.04 but
it's not trivial. Took me about 5-6h work, first time.

>  I have a Vodafone Pay and
> Go 3G dongle, cost about £40 from the Vodafone store.  I plugged it in
> on Ubuntu 9.04 and about 10 seconds later I was prompted for what my
> provider was from a list of pre-defined providers (which covered ALL the
> networks in the UK and others too).  Now plugging the dongle in I can
> get online in seconds (subject to reception, not a problem with Ubuntu,
> the same happens on Windows).  My dad's Three soap on a rope style modem
> also works fine.

Yep. My Nokia Communicator did the same & Just Worked™ first time, too.

> I'm looking at starting to learn C, I've tried it in the past and got
> fed up because I couldn't do the simple things on it that I could do in
> Basic, but this time I'm going to try and persevere with it and if I get
> stuck I'll ask.

There are much better, more generally-useful options than C now.
Python would probably be your best bet. Significant chunks of Ubuntu
and Red Hat are written in Python - it's a very capable language.
(Which I'm still struggling to learn myself, but that's by the bye.)

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Daniel Drummond 

>
> "Non-geeks", probably... "complete novices in the Outer Hebrides with
> loads of local friends using Windows" 
Actually when I lived in the Outer Hebrides, on Lewis in particular, the 
people were quite IT literate, and in Ness, at the very north of the 
island there was a Linux Centre. 

http://www.work-global.com/news/index.php?id=49

lol, just thought that was interesting.

Dan



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Steve 
On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:28:23 +0100, LeeGroups   
wrote:


>
> I'd like to say this kind of thing is uncommon, but if you're 'unpaid
> tech support' you see an awful lot of it, if you're paid tech support,
> you'll see this kind of thing daily. So - 'works out of the box' I
> wouldn't exactly say it does. I've been using Windows professionally
> since V2.0 demo came out... and it hasn't exactly been bed of roses...
>
> Lee
>
>
Just wait. October will be even more fun as people try to upgrade from  
vista to 7.  I've already told a few it's going to cost them more than the  
usual couple of pints to sort the mess out.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread LeeGroups 

> People do want a work out of the box machine, and Ubuntu isnt totally 
> out of the box, it does need other bits and pieces added, and unless you 
> know that, it doesnt work how most people are used to having a machine 
> work. Unless you spend a lot of time reading through the pages and pages 
> of the Ubuntu wiki, you wouldnt know that there are extra repositories 
> that you need, to get certain things that you have already installed on 
> a Windows machine. I went for months before I got shown about medibuntu. 
> The forum helps in some respects but you get told on there, read the 
> wiki, or plough through searches on the forum, and then come back and 
> ask, if you cant get it to work.
>
> I wanted to try get connected apart from my network at home through 
> wireless, you cannot do that without knowing how to use the terminal, 
> dongles from any of the main mobile carriers, wont work, just by 
> plugging it in, so no wireless outside of the house. I had to get told 
> about Bluetooth and Joiku spot, but Joiku spot wouldnt work with my 8.04 
> version, but it does now.
>
> Each upgrade, could essentially cause the computer not to work. I went 
> from partitioning on 8.04 working to upgrading to 8.10, and not working. 
> My only visit to the London Lug and two people working on the machine 
> couldnt get it to work, froze the minute it got to the log in screen, 
> uninstalled the installed from a different cd, not a chance, then 9.10 
> came along, and it works again, but without a lot of the desktop extras. 
> Its the graphics card its not good enough. I have to thank Michael 
> Fletcher for spending quite a lot of time on the phone and pc to pc 
> working with it to get it to work. Same with adding Ubuntu onto my 
> netbook, it came with Linux lite, that took a while, and a lot of work 
> to get it how it is now. Thanks to Michael again.
>
> There is something to Ubuntu not being a contender like Windows and Mac, 
> so many people take their Linux machines back, because they cant get it 
> to connect to their internet connection, and that is before you even 
> start with everything else. When I got my little netbook from the shop, 
> they warned me, you do realise it most likely wont work, keep the 
> receipt. This particular shop no longer stocks this netbook with Linux, 
> because they had so many bought back.
>
>   
I see what you're saying, but to balance the viewpoint, many people 
(esp. when talking about Linux) seem to gloss over a lot of Windows 
failings.

Windows "just works out of the box". Well kind of, once you've installed 
an office suite, and some antivirus, antimalware, a codec pack in case 
you're not using MS approved codecs, a pile of drivers (for your 
printer, scanner, 3G dongle, graphics tablet), a better browser and mail 
client.

Then (like my sister last week) you spend £30 on a game (Sims 3) and it 
doesn't run (keeps crashing).  The handbooks says "update your drivers", 
but as Sims 3 didn't come with a driver CD (like the 
printer/scanner/graphics table) you're lost and call your bro. He digs 
out the right page on the HP website, writes large email detailing what 
to do. This doesn't work, Sims 3 still crashes. This time the unpaid 
tech support gets the drivers direct from Intel, this doesn't work 
either as the laptop is whining that the existing drivers have been 
'specially modified by the manufacturer to improve performance on this 
computer' and won't let the Intel drivers install. Another large email 
detailing uninstalling the drivers, rebooting, installing the Intel 
drivers, etc. This fixes the issue, but leaves the screen set to a 
whacky resolution, another email later, the Sims finally works.

I'd like to say this kind of thing is uncommon, but if you're 'unpaid 
tech support' you see an awful lot of it, if you're paid tech support, 
you'll see this kind of thing daily. So - 'works out of the box' I 
wouldn't exactly say it does. I've been using Windows professionally 
since V2.0 demo came out... and it hasn't exactly been bed of roses... 

Lee


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Rob Beard 
John Matthews wrote:
> People do want a work out of the box machine, and Ubuntu isnt totally 
> out of the box, it does need other bits and pieces added, and unless you 
> know that, it doesnt work how most people are used to having a machine 
> work. 


Actually this is a common misconception.  A default installation of 
Windows XP from an original installation CD doesn't come with much.  You 
get the OS, Internet Explorer, and one or two apps (Media Player, 
Notepad, Wordpad, Paint, Windows Messenger, Outlook Express*).  Things 
like Flash, Office etc are all added afterwards not to mention probably 
a whole load of drivers which are required.  On newer hardware you can 
also find that you may need a driver disk to detect things like hard 
drives before you get Windows installed.

* Bear in mind, Windows Messenger is out of date and has been replaced 
with Windows Live Messenger and Outlook Express doesn't work as well as 
it used to with things like Hotmail.  Great at the time but it's been 
replaced by newer apps.

I presume what you're getting at is a PC bought from a shop with Windows 
pre-installed has everything added including usually these days a trial 
version of Office 2007 which will work for about 20 times and then 
expire (yes I know, pretty lousy but this is what Microsoft do these 
days) .  This isn't a fair comparison though to just installing Ubuntu 
from a CD.  It's also a valid argument that Ubuntu comes pre-installed 
with a Media Player, Web Browser, E-Mail client, and OpenOffice.org.  
Installing Flash and extra codecs is fairly straight forward.  When you 
go to a site which requires Flash is prompts to install it, when you try 
and play a media file it prompts to install the codecs.
> Unless you spend a lot of time reading through the pages and pages 
> of the Ubuntu wiki, you wouldnt know that there are extra repositories 
> that you need, to get certain things that you have already installed on 
> a Windows machine. I went for months before I got shown about medibuntu. 
> The forum helps in some respects but you get told on there, read the 
> wiki, or plough through searches on the forum, and then come back and 
> ask, if you cant get it to work.
>   
You don't need Medibuntu, you can get the codecs from the standard 
repositories.  Sure I do add repositories myself for things such as Wine 
and VirtualBox but not everyone needs to do this.  It's the same for 
Windows though, you have to download extra codecs unless all you're 
playing is MP3 and WMV/WMA media files.
> I wanted to try get connected apart from my network at home through 
> wireless, you cannot do that without knowing how to use the terminal, 
> dongles from any of the main mobile carriers, wont work, just by 
> plugging it in, so no wireless outside of the house. I had to get told 
> about Bluetooth and Joiku spot, but Joiku spot wouldnt work with my 8.04 
> version, but it does now.
>   
Depends on which version of Ubuntu you have.  I have a Vodafone Pay and 
Go 3G dongle, cost about £40 from the Vodafone store.  I plugged it in 
on Ubuntu 9.04 and about 10 seconds later I was prompted for what my 
provider was from a list of pre-defined providers (which covered ALL the 
networks in the UK and others too).  Now plugging the dongle in I can 
get online in seconds (subject to reception, not a problem with Ubuntu, 
the same happens on Windows).  My dad's Three soap on a rope style modem 
also works fine.

Now on Vista, I had to install the Vodafone Mobile Connect software 
which took about a minute or two and I have to wait for it to load up 
when I plug the dongle in.

With regards to wireless, my network adaptor (Intel Wireless) was 
detected straight away and just works (tm).  The same goes for my 
Netgear USB dongle too.  I have also tried various other machines with 
different wireless chipsets and many of them just work out of the box.

Granted on Ubuntu 8.04 there isn't native support but I could argue that 
only in the last year has the dongle prices come down closer to what 
most people can afford (those Three and O2 ones are getting really cheap 
now!).
> Each upgrade, could essentially cause the computer not to work. I went 
> from partitioning on 8.04 working to upgrading to 8.10, and not working. 
> My only visit to the London Lug and two people working on the machine 
> couldnt get it to work, froze the minute it got to the log in screen, 
> uninstalled the installed from a different cd, not a chance, then 9.10 
> came along, and it works again, but without a lot of the desktop extras. 
> Its the graphics card its not good enough. I have to thank Michael 
> Fletcher for spending quite a lot of time on the phone and pc to pc 
> working with it to get it to work. Same with adding Ubuntu onto my 
> netbook, it came with Linux lite, that took a while, and a lot of work 
> to get it how it is now. Thanks to Michael again.
>   
Do you mean 9.04 or 9.10 (which isn't out yet, only in Alpha?).

Granted some har

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread John Matthews 

>
> Same issue as that John fella, with his difficulties understanding
> shell.  As there are currently more people using Windows by Linux (by
> quite some way) then those who need "friends to come around to help"
> would probably be better with Windows.
>
> But I'd probably suggest Linux to those people over OS-X, because
> their Windows mates might be able to figure out how to use Linux as it
> is similar (and the majority of the key combinations (eg.
> ctrl-alt-delete)) are the same whereas OS-X has a completely different
> methodology altogether.
>
> Sean
>
>   
I have to say that I have always wanted to use Linux, Ubuntu in 
particular, since I saw a friend using it. It took me a long time to 
pluck up the courage to try a partition, then I discovered Wubi, that 
opened it up for me.

I have to agree with Doug, and add Linux is more for somebody who is 
proficient in programming, and is more for those who are used to 
computers in general.

People do want a work out of the box machine, and Ubuntu isnt totally 
out of the box, it does need other bits and pieces added, and unless you 
know that, it doesnt work how most people are used to having a machine 
work. Unless you spend a lot of time reading through the pages and pages 
of the Ubuntu wiki, you wouldnt know that there are extra repositories 
that you need, to get certain things that you have already installed on 
a Windows machine. I went for months before I got shown about medibuntu. 
The forum helps in some respects but you get told on there, read the 
wiki, or plough through searches on the forum, and then come back and 
ask, if you cant get it to work.

I wanted to try get connected apart from my network at home through 
wireless, you cannot do that without knowing how to use the terminal, 
dongles from any of the main mobile carriers, wont work, just by 
plugging it in, so no wireless outside of the house. I had to get told 
about Bluetooth and Joiku spot, but Joiku spot wouldnt work with my 8.04 
version, but it does now.

Each upgrade, could essentially cause the computer not to work. I went 
from partitioning on 8.04 working to upgrading to 8.10, and not working. 
My only visit to the London Lug and two people working on the machine 
couldnt get it to work, froze the minute it got to the log in screen, 
uninstalled the installed from a different cd, not a chance, then 9.10 
came along, and it works again, but without a lot of the desktop extras. 
Its the graphics card its not good enough. I have to thank Michael 
Fletcher for spending quite a lot of time on the phone and pc to pc 
working with it to get it to work. Same with adding Ubuntu onto my 
netbook, it came with Linux lite, that took a while, and a lot of work 
to get it how it is now. Thanks to Michael again.

There is something to Ubuntu not being a contender like Windows and Mac, 
so many people take their Linux machines back, because they cant get it 
to connect to their internet connection, and that is before you even 
start with everything else. When I got my little netbook from the shop, 
they warned me, you do realise it most likely wont work, keep the 
receipt. This particular shop no longer stocks this netbook with Linux, 
because they had so many bought back.

Plus, my experience in learning the shell script. I really do want to 
learn it, and its been causing me so much frustration.

That is my experience so far with Linux, but I'm still here, trying, 
'very trying' some would say, lol.

I wish I was doing this at school age, would probably be a lot easier.

This is also not a winge, its my experience as a novice.

John

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread doug livesey 
>You've had issues with keyboards?   Never heard of that one before...
> what type of keyboard?  And what was the issue?

The machine I set up for someone else, I set up using my preferred layout
(Dvorák), and then set it to normal ASCII, but it keeps reverting. No big
deal, but annoying, especially to a novice.

> Are you using proprietary Flash plug-in or the open one?  Might be
> worth trying the other...

I'll look into that, cheers.

> Ah, but if more people started using Linux then Apple might consider
> it a good idea to port their software... it's a supply & demand
> thing...  ;-)

Yeah, but if you're setting up a system for someone who trusts you to do the
best job you can for them, until that supply & demand thing is settled, is
it really ethical to stick them with being a statistical martyr to the
cause? The iPhone requirement came after I'd set the system up, but still
something like that should perhaps have been anticipated.

> And have you proven iTunes doesn't work?

I've looked at a fair few places to get iTunes working on Ubuntu, and all of
the ones I saw seem to say it won't (under WINE or anything else). I'll look
at the link you've provided (cheers again), but I'm not holding out much
hope (from past experience), and even less for getting it working to update
an iPhone. As for *proving* it can't work, I'm afraid I'm not nearly enough
of an expert to begin to exhaustively set about that task! Besides, you
can't prove a negative, you can only *dis*prove it. ;)

> But I'd probably suggest Linux to those people over OS-X, because
> their Windows mates might be able to figure out how to use Linux as it
> is similar (and the majority of the key combinations (eg.
> ctrl-alt-delete)) are the same whereas OS-X has a completely different
> methodology altogether.

I wouldn't have expected that! I must admit that I'm very fond of OSX & the
way it works, so much so that I can bear to work in it from time to time
when I can't in linux. And it was OSX (being built on Darwin) that got me
into trying out linux.
For a newb, as well, my experience has been that OSX is *miles* more
intuitive than any other OS, so that people don't really *need* their mates
to come around -- it just does what they expect intuitively --
human-oriented software!
Again, I must declaim that my experience of seeing newbs on various systems
is limited to my own trials & observing a few others, but in that
experience, OSX definately seems to be the one that people can take to with
most confidence.
So I guess I'm the opposite! ;) I'd recommend OSX to any 'average' user with
a budget, Ubuntu to anyone with any technical bent, and Windoze to anyone
with little cash who just wanted basic stuff (web, video, audio, wireless)
to work & didn't know how to get it to if it didn't.
Although maybe I'd recuse myself before that last recommendation. ;)
Cheers for the considered response,
   Doug.

PS -- the system I setup was for someone who lives in a different country,
just in case anyone's thinking that maybe I should just get 'round there &
fix it. :)
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Sean Miller 
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:58 PM, doug livesey wrote:
> amazing developers here, but the issues I had/have with sound cards &
> keyboards, and that I've had/have with other machines with sound & wireless
> connections, mean that I could not recommend Ubuntu to an 'average' user --

You've had issues with keyboards?   Never heard of that one before...
what type of keyboard?  And what was the issue?

> Another is video and sound (in general): I find that the quality of playback
> for both audio and video (but esp. video) to be significantly lower than on
> OSX (on the same machine) and Vista. The screen flickers and has refresh
> breaks in the middle of the screen, and on a lower-end machine, jumped
> intolerably for the majority of files. I've found some embedded video files
> like those embedded from youtube to be of an unwatchable quality in Ubuntu,
> with black squares flickering in the middle of the screen. Again, I imagine
> the task facing those who write drivers for *all* variants of machine to
> use, and am awed -- but this would still bug the average user.

Are you using proprietary Flash plug-in or the open one?  Might be
worth trying the other...

> Another is supported proprietary software, which just isn't Ubuntu's fault
> (as I don't think the others are, tbh). The biggie being iTunes, which you
> need for an iPhone, and everybody & their dog seems to want one of those.

Ah, but if more people started using Linux then Apple might consider
it a good idea to port their software... it's a supply & demand
thing...  ;-)

> There's no way for an 'average' user to easily get up & running with it in
> an emulator or dual-boot or whatever.

Why?

And have you proven iTunes doesn't work?

This article seems to suggest otherwise...
http://www.huanix.com/2008/11/12/itunes-8-running-in-wine-recognizes-ipod/

> What do others think? Is it something they would recommend to non-geeks as a
> swap in for OSX, or Windows?

"Non-geeks", probably... "complete novices in the Outer Hebrides with
loads of local friends using Windows" I'd probably not, as it's useful
for them to have a support network around them to wander around their
house and offer advice to them in person.

Same issue as that John fella, with his difficulties understanding
shell.  As there are currently more people using Windows by Linux (by
quite some way) then those who need "friends to come around to help"
would probably be better with Windows.

But I'd probably suggest Linux to those people over OS-X, because
their Windows mates might be able to figure out how to use Linux as it
is similar (and the majority of the key combinations (eg.
ctrl-alt-delete)) are the same whereas OS-X has a completely different
methodology altogether.

Sean

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Rob Beard 
Chris Weaver wrote:
> It been about 3 months since I switched the machines from XP to ubuntu 
> here in the radio station I work at. I have asked the 30+ volunteers 
> earlier today, what they like and dislike about Ubuntu so we'll see 
> how they compare.
>
> - Chris Weaver
Oh I really do envy you.  I'm battling with short sighted managers who 
don't seem to know what they're doing.  For the two radio stations I'm 
providing IT to, I am supposed to be the sole IT bod and well they just 
keep going over my head and it's really frustrating.  It's like banging 
my head against a brick wall because they won't invest in the IT and 
don't like change.

Rob



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread Chris Weaver 
It been about 3 months since I switched the machines from XP to ubuntu here
in the radio station I work at. I have asked the 30+ volunteers earlier
today, what they like and dislike about Ubuntu so we'll see how they
compare.

- Chris Weaver
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[ubuntu-uk] Where Ubuntu falls short

2009-07-16 Thread doug livesey 
Hi -- just sharing a couple of thoughts, really, as an Ubuntu user of 6
months or so.
The first is, for myself, I *love* using linux, and am very happy I made the
switch to Ubuntu.
That said, I am a programmer, and a geek, and so am getting the most benefit
from the tools that linux users have long taken for granted, from EMACS, to
gcc, to everything being developed for linux as a first, and therefore a
first-class, platform.
So that's great.
However, I have found that Ubuntu has fallen rather short in a couple of
areas that mean that I would not recommend it to an average user (as I have
earlier this year, to mine & their chagrin) who would use it as a 'leisure'
OS.

One is: setup. It's an impossible task to write drivers that will work on
any amount of machines, particularly when the manufacturors of those
machines don't give a fig about you, so I'm not having a do at any of the
amazing developers here, but the issues I had/have with sound cards &
keyboards, and that I've had/have with other machines with sound & wireless
connections, mean that I could not recommend Ubuntu to an 'average' user --
I would *have* to be on-hand and prepared to sacrifice some serious support
time to compliment my recommendation if I did.

Another is video and sound (in general): I find that the quality of playback
for both audio and video (but esp. video) to be significantly lower than on
OSX (on the same machine) and Vista. The screen flickers and has refresh
breaks in the middle of the screen, and on a lower-end machine, jumped
intolerably for the majority of files. I've found some embedded video files
like those embedded from youtube to be of an unwatchable quality in Ubuntu,
with black squares flickering in the middle of the screen. Again, I imagine
the task facing those who write drivers for *all* variants of machine to
use, and am awed -- but this would still bug the average user.

Another is supported proprietary software, which just isn't Ubuntu's fault
(as I don't think the others are, tbh). The biggie being iTunes, which you
need for an iPhone, and everybody & their dog seems to want one of those.
There's no way for an 'average' user to easily get up & running with it in
an emulator or dual-boot or whatever.
Another would be games, I imagine, but I don't really play those.

All of this, like I say, isn't a whinge, it's just some observations. For me
(as a geek), I'm delighted with Ubuntu, and know that I will continue with
it (& maybe other variants of linux) for the forseeable future, as it has an
amazing set of tools & repositories that make my life as a geek much
happier, and I love the free software philosophy. And I could happily
recommend it for office users, too.
But, for me, it still isn't something I'd recommend to the average, leisure
user, unless they really expressed an interest in learning all about it --
even I haven't been able to fully put away OSX for media stuff.
Please bear in mind that Ubuntu is the only variant of linux that I've spent
any real time with, and that my experience of using it as a lesiure OS is
limited to a couple of machines (Asus Aspire & Macbook) -- I've used many
more at work *for* work & have nothing but joy to report.

Anyway, I hope this message is taken in the spirit it is offered -- not as a
flame or whinge, but as some (hopefully) constructive observations on an OS
I've really come to love.
What do others think? Is it something they would recommend to non-geeks as a
swap in for OSX, or Windows?
Cheers,
   Doug.
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