Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 27/08/2008, norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] There, the girls were encouraged to sit at the keyboard and, those that did, soon realised that nothing drastic or terminal was going to happen. This was about 25 years ago and bears no comparison with schools today but I wonder how much the mothers of today are still influenced by those experiences when they were at school. Your points sound about right from my experience too. Except I remember in my school being actively encouraged to study biology or sociology, but discouraged from computing (and I only changed away from those options due to a short conversation with someone else). I've no doubt that the children of 25 years ago are now going on to influence their kids or whole classes of kids if they've become teachers themselves. So, we get another generation of girls put off from using computers. I fully believe that the reason many women aren't interested in computers is mainly because of social upbringing. For example, in India (and some other asian countries) there are more equal numbers of men and women working in programming). It wasn't so long ago that almost all students studying to become doctors were male, now there are more females. So, I believe things can be changed, just don't ask me how ;) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: computers is mainly because of social upbringing. For example, in India (and some other asian countries) there are more equal numbers of men and women working in programming). It wasn't so long ago that This wasn't my experience during my 2 months at Technopark in Thiruvananthapuram, training IT developers and interviewing for new ones. There wasn't one woman involved in the IT area, which numbered about 20 or 30 personnel, and not one of our interviewees were female. I was actually surprised at this. In contrast, in the call centre which was in another wing of the same building, there were hugely more women than men. What worries me about any thread such as this is that there is a serious danger that we create allegations of discrimination when in reality it's just the way it is - women are programmed differently to men (no pun intended) and seem, from my observations at least, to drift by default into different types of job to their male counterparts. The nursing profession, for instance, is dominated by women whereas road builders and railway maintenance engineers appears to be virtually a male domain. I grew up in a very exciting period when it came to computers, just as the home computer concept was starting. My school in Glastonbury initially had an RML-380Z which did exciting things like text-based puzzles and not much more. The BBC Micro then arrived in my second year of secondary school and we used to play Digger and Space Invaders at lunchtime. A fella called Hogan then took over the maths department and set up a network of Commodore 64s in the Maths Room - it was always a fight between the BBCs in the science dept. and the Commodores in Maths. BBC was most definitely the better, though - you could actually do things without having to use PEEK and POKE all the time. For 'A' Levels I went to the private sports-orientated school Millfield. They had a really nifty Econet network, which ran on 5.25 floppy disks. But technology was improving at a pace and by the time of my upper sixth this had been replaced with a network of BBC Master Series computers with (shock!) hard drives for storage. Interesting thing here was that it wasn't trendy at all to be involved with computers - you sort of got sidelined, called nerds, and so I had to also do cross-country running to keep my reputation intact and visit the Computer Room with dark glasses and false beard. As for women on computers, there was only Mrs Thomas (God bless her!) - no Millfield girls would have been seen dead near a computer. During my time there, however, I met the mighty Hugo Fiennes who is now working (I believe) for one of the major MP3 player manufacturers, having sold his EMPEG business to them which was a pioneering car MP3 player which achieved relatively cult status in the mid-90s. But this was much earlier... together we coded a BBC-micro based BBS system called Viewdata+ which was based on Prestel and at one stage had 7-10 Sysops around the UK using it. But I never recall any females phoning my BB. Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
We're having practically this same discussion on one of my crochet mailing lists - except that we're wondering why females dominate the lists and there are so few men. :) Dianne -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 28/08/2008, Sean Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What worries me about any thread such as this is that there is a serious danger that we create allegations of discrimination when in reality it's just the way it is - women are programmed differently to men (no pun intended) and seem, from my observations at least, to drift by default into different types of job to their male counterparts. The nursing profession, for instance, is dominated by women whereas road builders and railway maintenance engineers appears to be virtually a male domain. Yes, and women aren't capable of being doctors either... Saying that the reason women aren't interested in computers is because they aren't interested doesn't really get us anywhere. There was a good article explaining this unfortunately I can't find it now :/ Has it occurred, that like I said, the reasons for this are mostly social pressures/upbringing? There are some excellent articles explaining the subject, however the only ones I can find right now is http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050911153013536 and http://campustechnology.com/articles/52710_1/ This is quite interesting too: http://www.cra.org/govaffairs/blog/archives/000585.html It shows that women /were/ interested at least. I'm sorry if my tone has been a bit harsh, but it's a topic I'm quite passionate about, yet find difficult to explain. It's also frustrating when the same questions/comments keep coming up. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 28/08/2008, Dianne Reuby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're having practically this same discussion on one of my crochet mailing lists - except that we're wondering why females dominate the lists and there are so few men. :) I think the ways of social interaction between groups of men and women tend to be different and can be quite incompatible. It could be why once a group of one gender forms it's very hard to change. This article does a good job of explaining the difference in interaction and culture between mostly male tech groups and mostly female groups: http://www.devchix.com/2007/06/09/let%E2%80%99s-all-evolve-past-this-the-barriers-women-face-in-tech-communities/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/28 Sean Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: computers is mainly because of social upbringing. For example, in India (and some other asian countries) there are more equal numbers of men and women working in programming). It wasn't so long ago that This wasn't my experience during my 2 months at Technopark in Thiruvananthapuram, training IT developers and interviewing for new ones. There wasn't one woman involved in the IT area, which numbered about 20 or 30 personnel, and not one of our interviewees were female. I was actually surprised at this. In contrast, in the call centre which was in another wing of the same building, there were hugely more women than men. What worries me about any thread such as this is that there is a serious danger that we create allegations of discrimination when in reality it's just the way it is - women are programmed differently to men (no pun intended) and seem, from my observations at least, to drift by default into different types of job to their male counterparts. The nursing profession, for instance, is dominated by women whereas road builders and railway maintenance engineers appears to be virtually a male domain. I grew up in a very exciting period when it came to computers, just as the home computer concept was starting. My school in Glastonbury initially had an RML-380Z which did exciting things like text-based puzzles and not much more. The BBC Micro then arrived in my second year of secondary school and we used to play Digger and Space Invaders at lunchtime. A fella called Hogan then took over the maths department and set up a network of Commodore 64s in the Maths Room - it was always a fight between the BBCs in the science dept. and the Commodores in Maths. BBC was most definitely the better, though - you could actually do things without having to use PEEK and POKE all the time. For 'A' Levels I went to the private sports-orientated school Millfield. They had a really nifty Econet network, which ran on 5.25 floppy disks. But technology was improving at a pace and by the time of my upper sixth this had been replaced with a network of BBC Master Series computers with (shock!) hard drives for storage. Interesting thing here was that it wasn't trendy at all to be involved with computers - you sort of got sidelined, called nerds, and so I had to also do cross-country running to keep my reputation intact and visit the Computer Room with dark glasses and false beard. As for women on computers, there was only Mrs Thomas (God bless her!) - no Millfield girls would have been seen dead near a computer. During my time there, however, I met the mighty Hugo Fiennes who is now working (I believe) for one of the major MP3 player manufacturers, having sold his EMPEG business to them which was a pioneering car MP3 player which achieved relatively cult status in the mid-90s. But this was much earlier... together we coded a BBC-micro based BBS system called Viewdata+ which was based on Prestel and at one stage had 7-10 Sysops around the UK using it. But I never recall any females phoning my BB. Sean Since posting the original age/gender question, I have been very interested reading the discussion. Working in the arts there are probably more women than men, and the use of computer technology seems to go with most of the jobs. I don't agree that men and women are ' programmed' differently. Much relates to necessity and opportunity. As most management is male, then there will be fewer opportunities given to women. But I know several women working in IT, and everyone I know uses computers to some extent. I am the only person I know using Ubuntu- does the very concept 'open source' smack of blokishness and nerdimen? Is it all a question of marketing? Rather than anything to do with how men and women respond to computer technology? Caroline -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:58 AM, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much relates to necessity and opportunity. As most management is male, then there will be fewer opportunities given to women. But I know several women Interestingly, at Cornhill Insurance (later Allianz) when I was there most of the IT management were female. It was the technicians and the programmers who tended to be primarily male. Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 28/08/2008, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much relates to necessity and opportunity. As most management is male, then there will be fewer opportunities given to women. But I know several women working in IT, and everyone I know uses computers to some extent. I am the only person I know using Ubuntu- does the very concept 'open source' smack of blokishness and nerdimen? Is it all a question of marketing? Rather than anything to do with how men and women respond to computer technology? Well said! Those are some interesting questions. I think with so few women currently in free/open source software then it's bound to have a 'blokishness' feel about it. I wonder if with the increase in popularity of firefox and umpcs with linux, whether the 'nerdiness' feel is going though? I certainly think that 'marketing' of a sort has a lot to do with it. If you were to attend a local LUG or other linux event that was 50% female would it start feeling less 'blokish' to you or do you think more would need to be done? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/28 Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 28/08/2008, Dianne Reuby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're having practically this same discussion on one of my crochet mailing lists - except that we're wondering why females dominate the lists and there are so few men. :) I think the ways of social interaction between groups of men and women tend to be different and can be quite incompatible. It could be why once a group of one gender forms it's very hard to change. This article does a good job of explaining the difference in interaction and culture between mostly male tech groups and mostly female groups: http://www.devchix.com/2007/06/09/let%E2%80%99s-all-evolve-past-this-the-barriers-women-face-in-tech-communities/ --Dear Lucy- the article and the comments that follow are excellent. Thank you. Caroline ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/28 Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 28/08/2008, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much relates to necessity and opportunity. As most management is male, then there will be fewer opportunities given to women. But I know several women working in IT, and everyone I know uses computers to some extent. I am the only person I know using Ubuntu- does the very concept 'open source' smack of blokishness and nerdimen? Is it all a question of marketing? Rather than anything to do with how men and women respond to computer technology? Well said! Those are some interesting questions. I think with so few women currently in free/open source software then it's bound to have a 'blokishness' feel about it. I wonder if with the increase in popularity of firefox and umpcs with linux, whether the 'nerdiness' feel is going though? I certainly think that 'marketing' of a sort has a lot to do with it. If you were to attend a local LUG or other linux event that was 50% female would it start feeling less 'blokish' to you or do you think more would need to be done? Hi there - I suppose my concern is not a personal need to join a group etc- but rather the impression an organisation makes- I think Ubuntu is great- and the support from the 'community'(male or female) helping me to make a necessity work - I am irritated by female Windows users I know who don't need it for games, sound and film editing and so COULD switch to Ubuntu but it seems such a big deal because of the atmos surrounding open source.anatmosphere that has never bothered me personally-I have to say! My original comment was an observation and question- and the rest has developed in the discussion. I think the 'community' is a great thing, but separate from that has to be the marketing of an excellent product for all. But for some the M word is unacceptable so Linux perhaps has to rely on the more honest word or mouth slog. Caroline -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 28/08/2008, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there - I suppose my concern is not a personal need to join a group etc- but rather the impression an organisation makes- I think Ubuntu is great- and the support from the 'community'(male or female) helping me to make a necessity work - I am irritated by female Windows users I know who don't need it for games, sound and film editing and so COULD switch to Ubuntu but it seems such a big deal because of the atmos surrounding open source.an atmosphere that has never bothered me personally-I have to say! Hmm, interesting. Why do computers create such fear in people? I've known plenty of users who were scared of changing their basic computing habits, never mind their OS. I've not considered the effect that the perception of open source could have though, I thought that was something which mainly affected large organisations. I'd be interested to know whether people were put off using linux/Ubuntu because it's 'open source' and why, and what we as a community could do to change it. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/28 Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 28/08/2008, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there - I suppose my concern is not a personal need to join a group etc- but rather the impression an organisation makes- I think Ubuntu is great- and the support from the 'community'(male or female) helping me to make a necessity work - I am irritated by female Windows users I know who don't need it for games, sound and film editing and so COULD switch to Ubuntu but it seems such a big deal because of the atmos surrounding open source.an atmosphere that has never bothered me personally-I have to say! Hmm, interesting. Why do computers create such fear in people? I've known plenty of users who were scared of changing their basic computing habits, never mind their OS. I've not considered the effect that the perception of open source could have though, I thought that was something which mainly affected large organisations. I'd be interested to know whether people were put off using linux/Ubuntu because it's 'open source' and why, and what we as a community could do to change it. Hi, I think sometimes people think big is best. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
Dianne Reuby wrote: We're having practically this same discussion on one of my crochet mailing lists - except that we're wondering why females dominate the lists and there are so few men. :) M, I wonder why too :-) Eddie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
Time Warner didn't help... buy flippin' Netscape and then continue to use IE's rendering engine in their AOL browser. Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 16:47 +0100, Eddie Armstrong wrote: Dianne Reuby wrote: We're having practically this same discussion on one of my crochet mailing lists - except that we're wondering why females dominate the lists and there are so few men. :) M, I wonder why too :-) Eddie Eureka! I'll ask listmom and mailman to MERGE crochet and Ubuntu lists, and we'll have the perfect gender balance. Now to find a children's and seniors list to merge in as well ... Dianne -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
In message of 28 Aug, Sean Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:58 AM, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much relates to necessity and opportunity. As most management is male, then there will be fewer opportunities given to women. But I know several women Interestingly, at Cornhill Insurance (later Allianz) when I was there most of the IT management were female. It was the technicians and the programmers who tended to be primarily male. Perhaps not qite so polarised, but a similar picture at the Liverpool Computer Centre of United Biscuits some ten to twenty years ago. -- Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
Jai Harrison wrote: What we really need is a multiplatform messaging protocol + client to cut into the Microsoft instant messaging market - the younger generation of Microsoft Windows users. Isn't that what Pidgin is for or have I misunderstood? -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM, alan c [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jai Harrison wrote: What we really need is a multiplatform messaging protocol + client to cut into the Microsoft instant messaging market - the younger generation of Microsoft Windows users. Isn't that what Pidgin is for or have I misunderstood? -- Absolutely but I think aMSN tries to look and feel just like MSN (a clone) so that windows users feel more at home. It also supports webcams and all those silly animated emoticons :-) -- _ Michael Fletcher Visit my website here - http://www.mgfletcher.com/blog Interested in Linux? Then visit - http://www.ilovemylinux.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/7 London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum?and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? Caroline Just had a quick scan of the Ubuntu-UK members list and only spotted a couple of female names. Where are the dozen or so girls who made that impressive entrance (sweeping in as a group fashionably late, all wearing Ubuntu T-shirts) to the Hardy Heron launch party back in April? It was heartening to see them and it helped make the event feel much more socially balanced. There were women present before they turned up, but probably only half a dozen or so, if memory serves. I didn't get a chance to talk to anyone from the group, but assumed that most would be on this mailing list at least. Roger -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
Many years ago, when my wife was a teacher of modern foreign languages and schools had very few computers, the question of girls versus boys in the use of computers was often discussed at some length. As a generalisation, it was very obvious that boys were very keen to get there hands on the few machines that were available, whereas the girls were not. One theory put forward was that girls were reluctant to risk using the computer in case they damaged it (put down to maternal instinct) while the boys did not care. Also, those girls who were prepared to take the risk often could not get a look in because the boys had got there first. Another factor was that the school computers were usually used in subjects such as maths and science which were seen as boy subjects while the girls were more comfortable with the arts and languages. I became involved in a scheme to try to encourage the girls to get some computer experience by producing some simple games to help in the learning of languages. So, for the first time, the computer on its trolley, was taken from the maths room or the science lab into the languages department. There, the girls were encouraged to sit at the keyboard and, those that did, soon realised that nothing drastic or terminal was going to happen. This was about 25 years ago and bears no comparison with schools today but I wonder how much the mothers of today are still influenced by those experiences when they were at school. Norman -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On Fri, 2008-08-08 at 21:04 +0100, London School of Puppetry wrote: 2008/8/8 James Edward Grabham [EMAIL PROTECTED] everyone is welcome and no one is put off (hopefully!) I know some people (geeks, and red hat users) who don't like ubuntu, because of the community, and general opinion of Ubuntu, but that's another issue all together. :S James (male, Ubuntu user for just over 2 years, and 16 BTW) Dear All, The forum is what makes Ubuntu so enjoyable...I don't particularly want a women's forum.an everybody one is great.. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com sorry I'm a bit behind with the posts :D I'm 15 nearly 16 yo boy, been using ubuntu for almost 5 years and i've recently converted 3 mates (boys) to linux. Two ubuntu, one not sure yet cos his pc's messing around. Think he's having a bash at Mandriva... I've switched between knoppix, ubuntu and a bit of suse, and had a go with simply mepis and red hat. I think they're all good in their own way though, just different levels of usability and configurability === Farran Lee I'm only 15 :-P attachment: smiley-10.pngattachment: smiley-1.png-- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
everyone is welcome and no one is put off (hopefully!) I know some people (geeks, and red hat users) who don't like ubuntu, because of the community, and general opinion of Ubuntu, but that's another issue all together. :S James (male, Ubuntu user for just over 2 years, and 16 BTW) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
2008/8/8 James Edward Grabham [EMAIL PROTECTED] everyone is welcome and no one is put off (hopefully!) I know some people (geeks, and red hat users) who don't like ubuntu, because of the community, and general opinion of Ubuntu, but that's another issue all together. :S James (male, Ubuntu user for just over 2 years, and 16 BTW) Dear All, The forum is what makes Ubuntu so enjoyable...I don't particularly want a women's forum.an everybody one is great.. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
Unfortunately... i think that conversation was partly accurate, though the word ONLY is a bit strong. Ubuntu was pretty much created to break that tradition, and to some extent it is slowly working (spreading to the not so young, not so male population). I don't know of many aimed at/for/by women communities, but a few of the KUbuntu contributors and Planet-ubuntu members are part of the KDE Women team. http://women.kde.org/ They might have some interesting info on this topic there. I don't particularly agree with the concept of having women-only teams as i think it creates a visible boundary. While the general open communities are often boys-clubs, they are not limited to boys only. On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 10:08 +0100, London School of Puppetry wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum?and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? Caroline -- --- London School of Puppetry www.londonschoolofpuppetry.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 07/08/2008, London School of Puppetry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum? I've no idea about the forum or mailing list, but I've read statistics[1] which show that about 28% of people in IT are female but that only 1.5% of people within FOSS are female. A census of the Ubuntu community revealed that the proportion of women contributing was about 2.4%. I get the feeling this has changed in recent years, but there's certainly still a large gap. The people I know who use Linux and go to LUG meetings are anything from 16-70 (at a guess) year old males, with a few women in between. So there's certainly a large spread, but from my experience people tend to get involved at college/Uni or after retirement, when they have some free time. and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? That's a whole can of worms ;) Group like Ubuntu-women and linuxchix[2], etc have certainly done some research and are trying to help the situation (mostly by providing support and encouragement for integrating women into the wider community). I would strongly recommend listening to the talk that Emma Jane Hogbin gave at both LUGRadio Live in the USA[3] and UK[4] this year. It's a good starting point into the subject. In fact, listen to them both as they cover slightly different things. [1] http://ubuntu-women.org/ [2] http://www.linuxchix.org/ [3] http://lugradio.org/live/USA2008/schedule [4] http://lugradio.org/live/UK2008/schedule - it's not available yet, but will be within the next few weeks. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lucy wrote: The people I know who use Linux and go to LUG meetings are anything from 16-70 (at a guess) year old males, with a few women in between. So there's certainly a large spread, but from my experience people tend to get involved at college/Uni or after retirement, when they have some free time. I don't know any females, apart from perhaps my boss, that are interested in any aspect of IT - let alone Linux. My girlfriend is interested in gaming, but cares not for IT and operating systems etc. She came to a LUG meeting with us once but only because we were watching a video and it was in a pub that served good beer. - -- Stephen O'Neill w: http://www.thefloatingfrog.co.uk/ e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFImsGxJ+Auntu1v4QRAq1PAJ971/46boqlfIwOU4T8TteKqrd1cgCbBMXX Ve4Spgv1ePTd2/50mvDyg+U= =Fcnn -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 07/08/2008, Michael Holloway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know of many aimed at/for/by women communities, but a few of the KUbuntu contributors and Planet-ubuntu members are part of the KDE Women team. http://women.kde.org/ They might have some interesting info on this topic there. A quick list: ubuntu-women linuxchix debian-women gnome-women apache-women bsdchix drupalchix fedora women systers (part of the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology) I've missed loads, I didn't realise there were so many. I don't particularly agree with the concept of having women-only teams as i think it creates a visible boundary. http://ubuntu-women.org/faq.html covers this (it's a very common argument). While the general open communities are often boys-clubs, they are not limited to boys only. Unfortunately, the statistics disagree with you. For what ever reason the FOSS community is almost completely male and left to itself I don't think it will change. Women only groups are a reaction to the situation and part of the solution, but they are not the final solution. Also, there is nothing stopping a man from becoming part of a women's group (ubuntu-women have a number of useful male contributers for example). -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
I'm middle-aged and female - someone has to keep these youngsters in order! :) But there is a women's group on the forum, which I don't read much - I can't help feeling that gender-specific groups are a bit discriminatory. Unless the object is to show that women *are* using Ubuntu and encouraging others. I found lots of examples of older women using Ubuntu when I was looking out stuff for the demo day - mainly grannies who'd had it installed by family members. They were new to computers, so learning Ubuntu had no more fears than learning Windows would have had. I think the Ubuntu ethos is more geared to lack of discrimination on whatever grounds. Dianne On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 10:08 +0100, London School of Puppetry wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum?and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
London School of Puppetry wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum?and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? Caroline There was a poll of this list last December, which turned up some surprises about the age distribution of this list's membership - IIRC, there are a lot more older members than you might expect, and a significant number of retired folk. I can't find the data any more, but the thread included this post: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-December/010282.html (Anyone know how to recover the results?) But, as you say, there are very few women on this list (four or five max???). This is not unusual, is it? I took my wife to Stallman's talk in Manchester a little while ago, and she was not at all surprised to find herself one of only three or four women in a packed meeting of a couple of hundred or more. (BTW, she's not a computing/technology type, and only came to indulge me; but she enjoyed the talk enormously, and was deeply impressed with RMS's wit, diamond-sharp intellect and unyielding insistence on people using language precisely. She is, by the way, a psychologist! ;-) ) With regard to women in Linux, Val Henson's wonderful article remains a classic: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ Mac -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
I've missed loads, I didn't realise there were so many. I know, i was just looking too - there really are loads! communities are often boys-clubs, they are not limited to boys only. Unfortunately, the statistics disagree with you. For what ever reason the FOSS community is almost completely male and left to itself I don't think it will change. Women only groups are a reaction to the situation and part of the solution, but they are not the final solution. I think, (and without starting WW3 here) that the statistics are linked to a whole lot more. Women have always been welcome to join in these communities. (or at least for a long time ?? don't know how it was in the 80s). But: 1: Perhaps as they are seen as boys-clubs women are more reluctant to join ?? 2: I think in general, guys are more competitive (in an alpha male sense), and the FOSS world is a great place to show off 3: When we had a computer room back in my primary school (running commodore 64s) - there was a 10 or even 20:1 ratio playing really bad games. Generally, the girls just laughed as us :) In high school, the same. And now in my office - most of the guys have WIIs/PS3s or whatever - and the girls say yes there boyfriends have one. I REALLY don't know what it is - but guys just seem to be more into this type of stuff. 3 pt 2: My girlfriend can find the Firefox button on my desktop whether its in windows or linux. She doesn't care which OS she is in. As much as i TRY and sell linux - she REALLY doesn't care :) I don't know what the younger generations are like (ratio wise), but i suspect the ratio between is decreasing along with the old nerd/geek image that we the nerds geeks had. (Sorry, that got quite long - ill just stop here) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
On 07/08/2008, Michael Holloway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think, (and without starting WW3 here) that the statistics are linked to a whole lot more. Women have always been welcome to join in these communities. (or at least for a long time ?? don't know how it was in the 80s). But: The statistics are certainly only a very small part of the story and the reasons for such an imbalance are many and varied. I agree that women are normally welcomed into communities, but so far this hasn't worked. [snip lots of interesting points] I'm not too interested in going into the reasons for it, there are lots, and many people better qualified than me have done a better job of enumerating them. But certainly, the differences in the socialisation of boys/girls in our society has a lot to do with it. I don't know what the younger generations are like (ratio wise), but i suspect the ratio between is decreasing along with the old nerd/geek image that we the nerds geeks had. Actually, in terms of studying computer science at university the gap has gotten wider in the last 10-15 years (I can't remember the study but I suspect it concentrated on the US). I'm really not sure how much things are improving within FOSS and I'm too young to know what the situation was like for women 20 or so years ago. Although I do remember being dissuaded from being interested in computing at every turn (by both adults and peers) when I was growing up. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
London School of Puppetry wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! We get all shapes and sizes in the ubuntu community, from the 13 year old to the 70 year old we have them all. And i think its the fact that we do get all shapes and sizes that matters, we have more guys than gals, that's obvious but it doesn't really matter as long as everyone is welcome and no one is put off (hopefully!) are there lots of middle-aged females out there? you may wish to look at ubuntu-women.org team, they aim to help encourage women into linux/ubuntu, you can also find them on irc in #ubuntu-women and they have a mailing list too (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women) -- Gord Allott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Age and gender
London School of Puppetry wrote: In a conversation recently someone said to me that Ubuntu is only for techies.and blokes at that- and young blokes at that! Out of interest, as a middle-aged woman- I rarely see any other female names on the forum- but I really like Ubuntu but could not do without the help from the Forum -what is the general format of the forum?and could anything be done to change the age/gender profile to make Ubuntu more accessible to others-OR are there lots of middle-aged females out there? My wife leaves it all to me, not because I want that btw, but that is the way it is. She has her own kubuntu PC's anyway. I help others, mostly elderly, both genders, with their PCs, also a local charity. Only ubuntu, kubuntu, which I install and help maintain. It is no problem for them or me whereas I know windows would be a problem. The latest recruit is a female neighbour of my elderly in law. She wishes her husband would do more PC stuff, but he is more DIY practical than geek. Her windows PC is grinding to a halt and my offer to add a second HD and install ubuntu was accepted, given that I had already tried to resize the windows partition and found a problem which nearly lost the whole thing (left it alone then!). She is now happily, reliably, and securely using ubuntu on the 2nd HD. She is not likely to be independently using the forums or lists for a year or two yet I suspect, not confident enough. These people are real beginners, not techy but slightly courageous, ordinary (ex windows) users. This goes for another elderly female I know uses kubuntu. The good news is that these people are using k/ubuntu from choice and with confidence. They may take some time yet before they are willing to use forums or lists, if ever. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
