Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
hey, not all us comp sci people are bad! :-( I am very much a geek tyvm. I'm a business geek. I do understand what you are saying though. A lot of comp-sci grads just want to go away thinking they are the dogs bollocks in programming and what-not. But that simply isnt important to companies. Programming like that gets offshored to India where its cheaper; you NEED to have the business knowledge as well. Hence I get involved and ran a society, did film commissions and got myself on this placement year, ya de da de da... From my (limited) experience in the IT world so far it seems that businesses are after people who use IT to solve or enhance business processes. As I say to others: It's not programming, its IT. Being a tech-head as I am the low-level stuff comes in incredibly useful. You know exactly what is and isnt possible and are able to have a MUCH wider range of tools and possibilities at your disposal to solve these business problems. If you know these techs inside-out and have the business knowledge to go with it you will be amazed at how much your opinion counts in the big decisions (especially if you save them money ;-) If VBA code running in Access is what they want, fine, no problem. If they want a distributed system running off the back of Oracle, fine, no problem. If they want to hop onto the latest web2.0 ajax ruby-on-rails tech bandwagon, fine, no problem. If what they want is total overkill and want more options fine, no problem. This is the advantage you get with CS degrees as opposed to IT degrees which focus more on the business side. The trick is finding the happy medium I think this needs to be made a lot clearer to CS students in (especially my) university. Not so much as in teaching it, but making them aware. A Computer Science degree IS a Computer Science degree not an IT degree. Regards, On 07/09/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is weird... I work with an IT department of say around a hundred people. Of which, not one IT degree educated person knows how to administer a Linux system. The only people who will do anything with Linux, Unix etc are the fiddlers and hackers (mostly no degree or Uni drop-outs). We run a Windows based infrastructure where these people will not administer or implement software unless they have attended a training course specialising in it. This kind of beggars the question, what is the point of making a degree a requirement for someone in systems support/administration? In my experience, I'd take 1 god to honest geek over 5 random comp sci graduates any day of the week. Of course you do see geeks who go on to uni to follow their interests which is also good too. I'd wouldn't put the impetus on holding a degree however, I know too many people with 'em who've had to ask for help recovering Windows XP ;-) Cheers Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
I think you are correct in that companies (directors managers etc) are looking for IT process. But IT departments are run by those people. The heads of IT/IT Managers/IT Directors/CTOs (who are on 50k+) are responsible for such business. The IT department, or the team itself needs to be made up of geeks: sys admin,programmers,support etc. ( 50k) Perhaps the problem comes in where too many people are aiming for the large salary too early! But hey, who can blame them! I'd love a salary like that! I kind of agree, but things are a-changing. Up until a few months ago, I was chugging along as a happy techie in a departmental IT team when all of a sudden, crash bang awallop - ITIL happened! Departmental IT was dissolved, and a few of us (including yours-truly) got redeployed into service level management teams to work as a bridge between IT and the customer. No more do I get to fiddle with the gadgets that I love so much (well, not at work anyway!) as my job now consists of helping organise projects, reviewing SLA's and general non-techie megubbins. I'd love a Linux job! But it seems that a lot of IT work in the country is sliding away from the techie and to the suit :-( Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The way i see it, there are 2 types of compter poeple: Geeks, and Comptuter Experts. (and no offence to those who dont like the term geek) A Geek doesn't like to be told how/why things work - he/she like to figure things out... so probably no university degrees etc. A Computer expert has done 5 years in university and has a list of expertise etc... When it comes to crunch time, sit the two of them in front of two machines with the same problem: 1. The geek takes 30 minutes to fix it. If the expert has studied the problem, he can fix it in 10 minutes. If he has not, he cant fix it. Thats a rather big generalisation... but it gives caution to the hiring process when half of your systems run a lot custom built apps/server software. I much rather hear from a potential that he/she had put ther first computer together at the age of 10, and was writing DOS batch scripts to free up the extended memory in order to start games on an old 486 etc..., than to hear that they have studied point-and-click techniques (courtesy Paul) for the last 5 years, and know it like the back of their hand. I think you just described me to a tee including the 486 remark or it may have been a 386 but close enough and i was actually 9. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
Apologies for the long post. I've followed this debate with interest. I am a university lecturer and I used to manage the Industrial Placements Unit at the School of Computing and IT at the University of Wolverhampton. One option that is often overlooked is that of university placement students. Most universities run one or many Industrial Placements Units, who assist in the process of finding placement opportunities for university students who are on a four year sandwich degree. Employing placement students has a number of benefits: - they have had 2 years of current university education - they are comparably VERY inexpensive than a trained employee, yet are typically productive in a shorter timescale than an unskilled trainee - they are with the organisation for 1 year, so if they don't fit the needs of the organisation, there are no issues involving termination or renewal of contracts - if they do fit the needs, there are opportunities to employ the person, and allow them to complete their education part-time, or a promise to employ at the end of the degree, or other negotiable positions between the student and organisation - the students are typically extremely eager and grateful for the opportunity to be productive in the real world, and are typically very well motivated to achieve and succeed Whilst I'm obviously keen to promote my own university, I would encourage you to look to advertising your available positions with any/all/local universities - most students will relocate from their university or home location for the right opportunity. I hope this is useful - apologies for the long-winded lecture! :-) Matthew Green -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
Mark Harrison wrote: Money seems to do quite well in them.Oh, talk about a Freudian slip. That should have been Einstein and Monet :-) In my defence, I use a qwerty keyboard :-) :- I thought that was the latest nickname for the CEO of M$ :-) He does all right in them too! -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
Matthew Larsen wrote: However, realise that programming skill is only PART of what a typical employer is looking for - ability to work as part of a team, rather than adopt a primadona attitude. If everyone else in the organisation wears suits, don't expect to show up in jeans a T-shirt... on the flip side, if everyone is wearing polo shirts and chinos, don't be the only one in a 3-piece suit :-) Wearing a suit doesn't make you a suit, and if you claim that wearing a suit stifles creativity, consider that Einstein and Money seems to do quite well in them. Second that. Oh, talk about a Freudian slip. That should have been Einstein and Monet :-) In my defence, I use a qwerty keyboard :-) :-) M. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
mwuahahaha you poor ITIL slave. I am trying VERY hard to avoid that myself. And where's my beer? Regards, On 07/09/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you are correct in that companies (directors managers etc) are looking for IT process. But IT departments are run by those people. The heads of IT/IT Managers/IT Directors/CTOs (who are on 50k+) are responsible for such business. The IT department, or the team itself needs to be made up of geeks: sys admin,programmers,support etc. ( 50k) Perhaps the problem comes in where too many people are aiming for the large salary too early! But hey, who can blame them! I'd love a salary like that! I kind of agree, but things are a-changing. Up until a few months ago, I was chugging along as a happy techie in a departmental IT team when all of a sudden, crash bang awallop - ITIL happened! Departmental IT was dissolved, and a few of us (including yours-truly) got redeployed into service level management teams to work as a bridge between IT and the customer. No more do I get to fiddle with the gadgets that I love so much (well, not at work anyway!) as my job now consists of helping organise projects, reviewing SLA's and general non-techie megubbins. I'd love a Linux job! But it seems that a lot of IT work in the country is sliding away from the techie and to the suit :-( Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
The way i see it, there are 2 types of compter poeple: Geeks, and Comptuter Experts. (and no offence to those who dont like the term geek) A Geek doesn't like to be told how/why things work - he/she like to figure things out... so probably no university degrees etc. A Computer expert has done 5 years in university and has a list of expertise etc... When it comes to crunch time, sit the two of them in front of two machines with the same problem: 1. The geek takes 30 minutes to fix it. If the expert has studied the problem, he can fix it in 10 minutes. If he has not, he cant fix it. Thats a rather big generalisation... but it gives caution to the hiring process when half of your systems run a lot custom built apps/server software. I much rather hear from a potential that he/she had put ther first computer together at the age of 10, and was writing DOS batch scripts to free up the extended memory in order to start games on an old 486 etc..., than to hear that they have studied point-and-click techniques (courtesy Paul) for the last 5 years, and know it like the back of their hand. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
Michael Holloway wrote: Additionally, if anyone knows of good recruitment methods for the above, i would love to hear it! Go straight to the source: As a new feature, we are beginning to list Ubuntu related job opportunities offered by employers other than Canonical. If you are an employer offering Ubuntu related work, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ubuntu.com/employment HTH John -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
I'm interested, but currently doing a placement year then got another year at uni (comp sci at Manchester). If you dont mind waiting until 2009 drop me an e-mail and i'l forward my CV :-) Regards, PS Your not the only one with this problem. Most companies are having problems recruiting grads (esp in IT). There are something like 100 grads to a job but employers are still having trouble filling positions because 99.99% of those grads are rubbish. On 06/09/07, John Levin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Holloway wrote: Additionally, if anyone knows of good recruitment methods for the above, i would love to hear it! Go straight to the source: As a new feature, we are beginning to list Ubuntu related job opportunities offered by employers other than Canonical. If you are an employer offering Ubuntu related work, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ubuntu.com/employment HTH John -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
However, realise that programming skill is only PART of what a typical employer is looking for - ability to work as part of a team, rather than adopt a primadona attitude. If everyone else in the organisation wears suits, don't expect to show up in jeans a T-shirt... on the flip side, if everyone is wearing polo shirts and chinos, don't be the only one in a 3-piece suit :-) Wearing a suit doesn't make you a suit, and if you claim that wearing a suit stifles creativity, consider that Einstein and Money seems to do quite well in them. Second that. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Where to find good labour
I can certainly relate to the hardship of breaking into the IT industry, I personally am not qualified to any sort of recognisable level in IT specific qualifications/certifications but on the other hand i am far more knowledgable than 90% of people i know with degrees in IT related subjects. I think a lot of people tend to look at IT as an easy way to make money in a job instead of actually being interested in the work involved whereas I think the best IT job candidates are people like myself who enjoy the challenge of discovering how things work and making them better ( adapt, improve, overcome ) . Anyway just my 2 cents. Regards Rhys -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
