[uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
Hi, This is my first post as a community member ! I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with LINX members. I would like to know A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network operator working successfully with this setup? B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media converter vs a managed switch. Thanks and Regards, Randhir
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
I use it for connecting to LONAP.. From: Randhir Prakash mailto:rand...@trijit.com>> Date: Tuesday, 25 March 2014 16:20 To: "uknof@lists.uknof.org.uk<mailto:uknof@lists.uknof.org.uk>" mailto:uknof@lists.uknof.org.uk>> Subject: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement Hi, This is my first post as a community member ! I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with LINX members. I would like to know A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network operator working successfully with this setup? B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media converter vs a managed switch. Thanks and Regards, Randhir
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 2014/03/25 21:50, Randhir Prakash wrote: > Hi, > > > > This is my first post as a community member ! > > > > I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with > LINX members. > > I would like to know > > A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network > operator working successfully with this setup? > > B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse > North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box > Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a > managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am > looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media > converter vs a managed switch. Why not just use a fibre NIC directly?
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 25 March 2014 16:20, Randhir Prakash wrote: > Hi, > > > > This is my first post as a community member ! > > > > I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with LINX > members. > > I would like to know > > A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network operator > working successfully with this setup? > > B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse North. I > am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box Ethernet > network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a managed switch. > and what make and models will be best option ? I am looking for a cost > effective and flexible solution either Media converter vs a managed switch. Hello, I'd suggest looking at the managed switch, you will have better visibility of the link, speeds/duplex/DOM stats for the optics. With a media converter, unless its a managed one who knows whats going on. Be careful about connecting your switch to the exchange, I'd suggest reading this page on the LONAP site, http://www.lonap.net/config-hints.shtml Nat -- Nat https://noc.esgob.com
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 25/03/2014 16:20, "Randhir Prakash" mailto:rand...@trijit.com>> wrote: This is my first post as a community member ! I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with LINX members. I would like to know A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network operator working successfully with this setup? Yes it was first done with NetBSD and GateD almost 20 years ago; a large number of current LINX members use a similar set-up. B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media converter vs a managed switch. I suggest you carefully look at the MOU for the LINX about how to connect. I'd also suggest talking to the LINX directly as they can often offer the best solution to how you connect - plugging in another switch is a big no no typically. Cheers, Neil.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 25/03/2014 16:20, Randhir Prakash wrote: > This is my first post as a community member ! > > I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with LINX > members. you will need use an ethernet card where the OpenBSD driver supports interrupt mitigation. Otherwise, the box will be hammered when the packet load increases. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/2014 17:24, Neil J. McRae wrote: > best solution to how you connect – plugging in another switch is a big no > no typically. rubbish. IXPs only care about having a single MAC address behind each access port and that your assigned IP address is tied to that, nothing else. Doesn't matter if there's a switch in the middle or not. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26 Mar 2014, at 17:24, Neil J. McRae wrote: > I suggest you carefully look at the MOU for the LINX about how to connect. > I’d also suggest talking to the LINX directly as they can often offer the > best solution to how you connect – plugging in another switch is a big no no > typically. This may have been the situation until a decade or so ago, but connections to IXPs using a switch are extremely common these days. This thread from 2005 (!) has some details: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/nanog/users/87275?do=post_view_threaded#87275 -- Will Hargrave Technical Director LONAP Ltd +44 20 3137 8330
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26 March 2014 17:39, Will Hargrave wrote: > > On 26 Mar 2014, at 17:24, Neil J. McRae wrote: > > > I suggest you carefully look at the MOU for the LINX about how to > connect. I'd also suggest talking to the LINX directly as they can often > offer the best solution to how you connect - plugging in another switch is > a big no no typically. > > This may have been the situation until a decade or so ago, but connections > to IXPs using a switch are extremely common these days. > Especially since the distinction between a switch and a router is being eroded. But I think I feel the same shudder that Neil does when someone suggests out loud that they are connecting L2 devices to the fabric :-) Aled
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
My openbsd box is virtualized on xenserver. I dont know which fiber nic is more compatible with xenserver. I also need one more port for transit. If you could suggest any cost effective managed switch with multiple sfp slot. I wonder that linx need only one mac id visible to their network. I hope that my virtual openbsd router nic will be only visible to linx and physical nic mac id will not be presented to linx. Kindly share youe experience. Sent from Samsung Mobile Original message From: Stuart Henderson Date:26/03/2014 10:21 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Randhir Prakash Cc: uknof@lists.uknof.org.uk Subject: Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement On 2014/03/25 21:50, Randhir Prakash wrote: > Hi, > > > > This is my first post as a community member ! > > > > I wish to use a Openbgpd using OpenBSD box to connect and peer with > LINX members. > > I would like to know > > A) Has anyone in the UKNOF community heard of any other network > operator working successfully with this setup? > > B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse > North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box > Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a > managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am > looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media > converter vs a managed switch. Why not just use a fibre NIC directly?
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/14 17:33, Nick Hilliard wrote: rubbish. IXPs only care about having a single MAC address behind each access port and that your assigned IP address is tied to that, nothing else. Doesn't matter if there's a switch in the middle or not. I think the definition of "switch" and "router" has blurred somewhat anyway. I take the path of least resistance these days, stop moaning at members for using shitty layer 2 devices / providers because it's only going to get more common and just filter it, we have the tools. -- Tom :: www.portfast.co.uk / @portfast :: hosted services, domains, virtual machines, consultancy
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26 Mar 2014, at 17:44, Aled Morris wrote: > >> I suggest you carefully look at the MOU for the LINX about how to connect. > >> I’d also suggest talking to the LINX directly as they can often offer the > >> best solution to how you connect – plugging in another switch is a big no > >> no typically. > >This may have been the situation until a decade or so ago, but connections > >to IXPs using a switch are extremely common these days. > Especially since the distinction between a switch and a router is being > eroded. > But I think I feel the same shudder that Neil does when someone suggests out > loud that they are connecting L2 devices to the fabric :-) The major IXPs are all selling products which involve a provider doing just this in order to provide a partner programme, with multiple connections delivered on individual .1q tags on a trunk port. -- Will Hargrave LONAP Ltd +44 20 3137 8330
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/2014 17:44, Aled Morris wrote: Especially since the distinction between a switch and a router is being eroded. This. When is a switch a router and a router a switch these days? But I think I feel the same shudder that Neil does when someone suggests out loud that they are connecting L2 devices to the fabric :-) Same here. I think one of the key things to not get wrong is "whatever you do, don't allow your L2 loop prevention protocol (which may be on by default) to leak out towards the exchange". Of course most exchanges now are much better at filtering this than in the past - mainly because the vendors finally implemented features we'd been asking about having for years. But back to the original question, media converters in a network can be a real pain to troubleshoot as they are usually unmanaged or very lightly managed... but we've all had times where we've had to put them in the network somewhere. Be prepared to blame a media converter first without much evidence if you're going to use it. Paul. -- Paul Thornton
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/2014 17:45, Tom Bird wrote: > I think the definition of "switch" and "router" has blurred somewhat anyway. yeah it got hazy a long time ago. > I take the path of least resistance these days, stop moaning at members for > using shitty layer 2 devices / providers because it's only going to get > more common and just filter it, we have the tools. sensible thing to do. "port security" opens up some nasty stability problems. Strict L2 filtering is the only thing which makes sense. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
> rubbish. IXPs only care about having a single MAC address behind each > access port and that your assigned IP address is tied to that, nothing > else. Doesn't matter if there's a switch in the middle or not. > Nick That may well be true - but in this situation what was being proposed in my view is dreadful but your welcome to recommend what ever "rubbish" solution you think is acceptable :) Regards, Neil
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 17:39, "Will Hargrave" wrote: > > > This may have been the situation until a decade or so ago, but connections to > IXPs using a switch are extremely common these days. Will - Actually 20 years ago (!) Demon's router was connected via a switch and sat in Finchley (I still have the box!) so yes this is very common and has been for a long time - but it doesn't make it a good design and in my view is a big no no. Cheers Neil.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26 March 2014 17:42, Randhir Prakash wrote: > My openbsd box is virtualized on xenserver. I dont know which fiber nic is IME, virtualised hardware can add a significant overhead to the network stack, introducing a fair amount of latency. Will this matter? Also, the virtualisation might hide link errors from the openBSD box and cause problems?
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 17:53, "Paul Thornton" wrote: > > >> On 26/03/2014 17:44, Aled Morris wrote: >> >> Especially since the distinction between a switch and a router is being >> eroded. > > This. When is a switch a router and a router a switch these days? > >> But I think I feel the same shudder that Neil does when someone suggests >> out loud that they are connecting L2 devices to the fabric :-) > > Same here. I think one of the key things to not get wrong is "whatever you > do, don't allow your L2 loop prevention protocol (which may be on by default) > to leak out towards the exchange". Of course most exchanges now are much > better at filtering this than in the past - mainly because the vendors > finally implemented features we'd been asking about having for years. Did they? I think other changes made this work! > > But back to the original question, media converters in a network can be a > real pain to troubleshoot as they are usually unmanaged or very lightly > managed... but we've all had times where we've had to put them in the network > somewhere. Be prepared to blame a media converter first without much > evidence if you're going to use I'll be trendy and say "that!"
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26 Mar 2014, at 22:15, Neil J. McRae wrote: >> This may have been the situation until a decade or so ago, but connections >> to IXPs using a switch are extremely common these days. > Will - Actually 20 years ago (!) Demon's router was connected via a switch > and sat in Finchley (I still have the box!) so yes this is very common and > has been for a long time - but it doesn't make it a good design and in my > view is a big no no. Actually I think the things which made it a problem years ago (l2 hygiene, loops, etc) are less of a problem, since we have adequate protection. These days, as a proportion of traffic flow router controlplanes are far more vulnerable to things going wrong. Hell, LINX (and everyone else) *sell* a partner product which encourages people to connect over third party l2 infrastructure. Our challenges lie elsewhere, mostly within the fabric itself as opposed to the customer interface.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/2014 22:08, Neil J. McRae wrote: > That may well be true - but in this situation what was being proposed in > my view is dreadful but your welcome to recommend what ever "rubbish" > solution you think is acceptable :) there's nothing wrong with connecting a switch to an IXP - people do it all the time and it's fine by any sane ixp. The only functionality that you lose is bgp-down on unexpected carrier loss, but that tends to be a rather one-sided operation at an IXP anyway because you have no control of the other side. IOW, if you want any sort of reasonable control over how bgp reacts to unexpected carrier loss, it's a good idea to drop your bgp timers down to something small. Some IXPs now use L3 filters for forcing BGP sessions to drop during scheduled maintenance. This further reduces the impact of the carrier loss problem. Media converters are a different matter, of course. You only want to use those if you hate your life. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 22:26, "Will Hargrave" wrote: >> > > Actually I think the things which made it a problem years ago (l2 hygiene, > loops, etc) are less of a problem, since we have adequate protection. These > days, as a proportion of traffic flow router controlplanes are far more > vulnerable to things going wrong. Not sure I agree - I think the two are linked - a big enough flap from one of these carriers and it can create instabilities in the fabric and the L3 domain. > Hell, LINX (and everyone else) *sell* a partner product which encourages > people to connect over third party l2 infrastructure. Yup - but In my view it's not a great solution for us as network providers. > Our challenges lie elsewhere, mostly within the fabric itself as opposed to > the customer interface. I don't see how you can abstract the two in the way you are doing the two are linked.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
> On 26 Mar 2014, at 22:30, "Nick Hilliard" wrote: > > > there's nothing wrong with connecting a switch to an IXP - people do it all > the time and it's fine by any sane ixp. Nick Which is great - but in my view it's a path to pain for a variety of reasons. Can you keep plugging in as many of my competitors like this please? :) Regards, Neil
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 26/03/2014 22:41, Neil J. McRae wrote: > Which is great - but in my view it's a path to pain for a variety of > reasons. Can you keep plugging in as many of my competitors like this > please? :) Neil, I'm puzzled as to how you think remote ixp peering might work, if not over physical/virtual l2 connections? Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 2014/03/26 23:12, Randhir Prakash wrote: > My openbsd box is virtualized on xenserver. I dont know which fiber nic > is more compatible with xenserver. While I could possibly understand that for something like a route server, that's an additional layer that I would not want in my forwarding path... As for nics, no idea about xenserver specifically, but HotLava Systems have cards with 2/4/6 SFP or SFP+ based on Intel controllers which have pretty good OS compatibility.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 27/03/2014 11:34, "Nick Hilliard" wrote: > >Neil, I'm puzzled as to how you think remote ixp peering might work, if >not >over physical/virtual l2 connections? I can think of one other way but that wasn¹t my point; in my view I wouldn¹t take this approach at all. I can get L3 transit at a lower price than the cost and agro of virtual connections and get overall a better connectivity solution. If I need scale I can get a circuit and put a router on site and get a bunch of other benefits and then get the real benefits of being at an IXP in whole rather than virtually, with better QoE and a lot more certainty about shared fates. YMMV. One thing that concerns me a great deal is the patch work of virtual connectivity that¹s been created and I¹m concerned that many networks really don¹t understand enough about the underlying network they are operating on, or that there suppliers suppliers suppliers network is working on. Perhaps even in a transition tx sense this issue still existed but it was, at least in my view, more transparent and simplifies modelling. Cheers, Neil.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 27/03/2014 12:00, Neil J. McRae wrote: > If I need scale I can get a circuit and put a router on site and get a > bunch of other benefits and then get the real benefits of being at an IXP > in whole rather than virtually, with better QoE and a lot more certainty > about shared fates. YMMV. the same argument can be made about using PNIs instead of IXPs for interconnection. Provisioned properly, most service providers aren't going to see much of a practical difference between connecting to their IXP over a switch and connecting directly with a router. For a larger organisations, it makes less sense to put a switch in the middle but let's face it, most organisations which connect to IXPs aren't giants. So yes: "YMMV". Mileage varies quite a good chunk across the sort of provider profile you see at IXPs. Don't write off something which makes plenty of sense for a small organisation just because it makes almost none for a large one. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
Not everyone has a monopoly on UK wide connections... On 27/03/2014 12:00, "Neil J. McRae" wrote: >On 27/03/2014 11:34, "Nick Hilliard" wrote: >> >>Neil, I'm puzzled as to how you think remote ixp peering might work, if >>not >>over physical/virtual l2 connections? > >I can think of one other way but that wasn¹t my point; in my view I >wouldn¹t take this approach at all. I can get L3 transit at a lower price >than the cost and agro of virtual connections and get overall a better >connectivity solution. > >If I need scale I can get a circuit and put a router on site and get a >bunch of other benefits and then get the real benefits of being at an IXP >in whole rather than virtually, with better QoE and a lot more certainty >about shared fates. YMMV. > >One thing that concerns me a great deal is the patch work of virtual >connectivity that¹s been created and I¹m concerned that many networks >really don¹t understand enough about the underlying network they are >operating on, or that there suppliers suppliers suppliers network is >working on. Perhaps even in a transition tx sense this issue still existed >but it was, at least in my view, more transparent and simplifies >modelling. > >Cheers, >Neil. > >
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
Nick To coin a phrase. rubbish! This model works irrespective of network size. Regards, Neil. Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Mar 2014, at 12:55, "Nick Hilliard" wrote: > >> On 27/03/2014 12:00, Neil J. McRae wrote: >> If I need scale I can get a circuit and put a router on site and get a >> bunch of other benefits and then get the real benefits of being at an IXP >> in whole rather than virtually, with better QoE and a lot more certainty >> about shared fates. YMMV. > > the same argument can be made about using PNIs instead of IXPs for > interconnection. > > Provisioned properly, most service providers aren't going to see much of a > practical difference between connecting to their IXP over a switch and > connecting directly with a router. For a larger organisations, it makes > less sense to put a switch in the middle but let's face it, most > organisations which connect to IXPs aren't giants. > > So yes: "YMMV". Mileage varies quite a good chunk across the sort of > provider profile you see at IXPs. Don't write off something which makes > plenty of sense for a small organisation just because it makes almost none > for a large one. > > Nick > >
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
>> So yes: "YMMV". Mileage varies quite a good chunk across the sort of >> provider profile you see at IXPs. Don't write off something which makes >> plenty of sense for a small organisation just because it makes almost none >> for a large one. > To coin a phrase. rubbish! > This model works irrespective of network size. Actually, it doesn’t - as evidenced by the massive reseller growth at AMS-IX of smaller ASNs (they’re up to 659 connected now) since introduction of the reseller programme. I share many of your concerns - the 30,000ft view - about shared fates and the variety of other problems partner programmes and l2 interconnections bring; but I think, having spent a decade running networks at large telcos, you don’t appreciate the market other networks operate in. This model works very well for hundreds of networks. Today's peering networks are more diverse than ever. -- Will Hargrave +44 114 303
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Mar 2014, at 12:56, "Thomas Greer" wrote: > > Not everyone has a monopoly on UK wide connections... I don't personally but I do have fibre from my garage to my kitchen. But I assume you mean BT - and if so sorry but that makes no sense at all. (And isn't even right!). You don't need UK wide connectivity to connect to the exchange points in the UK (or outside of the UK). There are 4 locations that you need to connect. Outside of London all of the other true infrastructure providers have an advantage over BT in those markets. Outside of the UK; BT is competitive and offer lots of different connectivity solutions and world leading and in 176 countries. Regards, Neil
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 27 Mar 2014, at 11:48, Stuart Henderson wrote: >> My openbsd box is virtualized on xenserver. I dont know which fiber nic >> is more compatible with xenserver. > While I could possibly understand that for something like a route server, > that's an additional layer that I would not want in my forwarding path… Yes. I would not try to do this. the virtualisation layers tend to leak a lot of layer-two junk that your IXP operator will not want to see. -- Will Hargrave LONAP Ltd +44 20 3137 8330
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 27/03/2014 13:20, "Will Hargrave" wrote: > >Actually, it doesn¹t - as evidenced by the massive reseller growth at >AMS-IX of smaller ASNs (they¹re up to 659 connected now) since >introduction of the reseller programme. They have done (as have many others) a great job to make it easy. I believe though that its entirely possible using a traditional model and generates a better overall return case. > > >I share many of your concerns - the 30,000ft view - about shared fates >and the variety of other problems partner programmes and l2 >interconnections bring; but I think, having spent a decade running >networks at large telcos, you don¹t appreciate the market other networks >operate in. This model works very well for hundreds of networks. Today's >peering networks are more diverse than ever. I don¹t think I said that the model isn¹t working Will, I said its not a good model from a design perspective or at least that¹s what I meant and that its not the only cost effective solution. I also think it has drawbacks as does any model. But if I may throw your assertion back at you (:)) you don¹t appreciate the view that one gets given the knowledge of unit costs of infrastructure and systems to support the type of infrastructure required to build what I¹m positioning. You also don¹t appreciate that in many cases and in the many large telcos I¹ve worked in - we are often, if not always, competing with those types of companies, notably in the small business sector and wholesale sectors - but do I take seriously the cost of networks, absolutely I do, I also take massive note of what I call ³design debt² where you make a choice that costs you a lot to live with later on. But that¹s the great thing about UKNOF, it allows us to share our views and hopefully learn something from each other. Regards, Neil.
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On 27/03/2014 13:08, Neil J. McRae wrote: > Nick > To coin a phrase. rubbish! > > This model works irrespective of network size. it works if you can afford it, but other models often work better for smaller networks. Not every organisation can afford to build out the level of infrastructure you're suggesting and the scale difference also means that these design choices are easy to fix later on, unlike what you get if you muck up in larger networks. In other words, this is not generally the "big no no" you claim it to be. Nick
Re: [uknof] Openbgpd for BGP peering with LINX and media converter requirement
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:50:53 +0530, Randhir Prakash wrote: B) LINX provides connectivity using Single Mode Fiber in Telehouse North. I am looking to learn more about how to connect the Openbsd box Ethernet network to fiber network of LINX i.e. Media converter vs a managed switch. and what make and models will be best option ? I am looking for a cost effective and flexible solution either Media converter vs a managed switch. I've used this card in a similar situation; http://rubytech.com.tw/EN/product.php?pd_id=643 ..but using Linux rather than Openbsd. It detects as a VT6120/VT6121/VT6122 so perhaps it will work if openbsd supports that.. or if you're running openbsd under Xen or VMware anyway perhaps the host can support it. It works ok. It has the advantage of space saving over a media convert or switch but the card is not particularly cheap.. I think I paid around £300 for mine which is certainly more expensive than a cheap media converter + copper nic, and if you later need to upgrade the server hardware it might be better to have the flexibility of a switch anyway. Rob
