RE: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation

[Julie Doll Allen]

Peter,

>Would you be able to share the list of languages represented with us?

It's probably easier if you contact me privately to ask about a
particular language.  I will be posting Greek soon, and among others,
Dutch is in the pipeline.  There are several other languages I am
expecting to get, but the list is somewhat in flux.  (For example, I
have contacted someone about Indic scripts, but I don't know which
languages, if any, that person may be able to provide.)

--Julie

Special character properties

[Patrick Andries]

Sometime ago we discussed the difference between EM SPACE and EM QUAD. We
agreed that effectively there is none. Is there then a reason why EM QUAD
seems to be missing from the line boundary control category (p. 48, TUS 3.0)
while EM SPACE, EN QUAD and EN SPACE are
listed ?

Regarding the Indic dead-character formation category (p. 49 TUS 3.0),
should U+0E3A THAI CHARACTER PHINTHU be part of it, since it is apparently a
virama when pali is written in Thai ? This seems to be the only class 9
character (virama) found on p. 81 that is missing from p. 49. Any reason ?


P. Andries
Dorval (Québec)

Re: Designing a multilingual web site

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

You should explicitly set the encoding in the header of your page, and not
leave it for the browser to guess. The following should go all in one line
at the very top of the header:



michka


- Original Message -
From: "Munzir Taha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:42 PM
Subject: Designing a multilingual web site


> I opened notepad, write arabic, and saved the file as filename.htm with
> Encoding UTF-8. Opening the page, I found that view -> Encoding  shows
> Unicode (UTF-8) with auto-select enabled. My question is where this info
> lies - In my box?. Suppose I publish the page, how can people know that I
> told notepad to save as Unicode ;-)
>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
>

Designing a multilingual web site

[Munzir Taha]

I opened notepad, write arabic, and saved the file as filename.htm with
Encoding UTF-8. Opening the page, I found that view -> Encoding  shows
Unicode (UTF-8) with auto-select enabled. My question is where this info
lies - In my box?. Suppose I publish the page, how can people know that I
told notepad to save as Unicode ;-)


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Re: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Uni

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

Well, there is no ActiveX DLL to register, as the MLang COM interface has no
typelib. It has an .IDL, but the interface is not Automation friendly and
not VB-friendly. (Ugh!!!)

I have an article going into the October VBPJ that provides a VB-friendly
wrapper around a lot of MLang (it comes from my i18N with VB book). That
might be your best option(I don't think anyone else is covering it or has
plans to).

michka


- Original Message -
From: "Leon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Michael (michka) Kaplan'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, &
Uni


>
> Do you know what ActiveX DLL I should refer to? I cannot
> find any information the COM DLL that should be registered?
>
> Thanks.
>   Leon
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael (michka) Kaplan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:27 PM
> > To: Leon Spencer; Unicode List
> > Subject: Re: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO,
> > Code Pages,
> > & Uni
> >
> >
> > If you are on the Windows platform, MLang (the MultiLanguage object)
> > provides an OM that can provide this info. see
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/misc/mlang/mlang.asp
> >
> > for more info, especially info on methods off the
> > IMultiLanguage2 interface.
> >
> >
> > michka
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Leon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:07 PM
> > Subject: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code
> > Pages, & Uni
> >
> >
> > > How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages,
> > & Unicode? I
> > > know
> > > Cp1252 charset corresponds to windows-1252 MIME charset.
> > >
> > > Do you know where I can find a mapping to a MIME charset?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >   Leon
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Uni

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

If you are on the Windows platform, MLang (the MultiLanguage object)
provides an OM that can provide this info. see

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/misc/mlang/mlang.asp

for more info, especially info on methods off the IMultiLanguage2 interface.


michka


- Original Message -
From: "Leon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:07 PM
Subject: How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Uni


> How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Unicode? I
> know
> Cp1252 charset corresponds to windows-1252 MIME charset.
>
> Do you know where I can find a mapping to a MIME charset?
>
> Thanks.
>   Leon
>
>

How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Uni

[Leon Spencer]

How-to find corresponding MIME charset for ISO, Code Pages, & Unicode? I
know
Cp1252 charset corresponds to windows-1252 MIME charset. 
 
Do you know where I can find a mapping to a MIME charset?
 
Thanks.
  Leon
 

Re: FW: quick question about Wireless Application Protocol (WAP)

[Markus Scherer]

hi,

i have finally looked around for an answer to this, i hope it is still relevant -

in the specification document for the wireless markup language (wml) at 
http://www1.wapforum.org/tech/documents/SPEC-WML-19991104.pdf
it says in chapter 6 that wml is based on xml and therefore uses xml's document 
character set, which is unicode/iso 10646. the xml spec in turn specifies
the entire utf-16 range to be used. xml and wml allow to support and announce 
different charsets.

wml is the main format for web pages within the wap suite.
therefore, i venture to state "wap is unicode compliant."

for more details, please see http://www.wapforum.org/

markus

"Magda Danish (Unicode)" wrote:
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Drzewicki, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 11:59 AM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: quick question
> 
> I have been trying to track down the following answer. Possibly you can help
> 
> "Is the Wireless Application Protocol (WAP) unicode compliant?" A client in
> China needs to know if WAP is double byte enabled.
> 
> Much thanks in advance!
> 
> - Robert

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[Curtis Clark]

At 07:39 AM 7/17/00 -0800, Mark Leisher wrote:
Another one I've seen frequently over the past few years is the use of 
"loose"
instead of "lose."  I find this one particularly jarring.

Although it is intriguing to think of someone loosing her/his virginity.


--
Curtis Clark  http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/
Biological Sciences Department Voice: (909) 869-4062
California State Polytechnic University  FAX: (909) 869-4078
Pomona CA 91768-4032  USA  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Using Unicode in XML

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

From: "Markus Scherer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> what more do you need?
> appendix f describes a way for conforming xml processors that support
encodings other than utf-8 and utf-16 to autodetect the encoding family. e44
extends the list of initial bytes to include the utf-8 signature.
>
> this all is non-normative, i.e., an xml processor may choose to support
only utf-8 and utf-16, and only the latter with the signature (bom), but
there is a good way to recognize many more input streams, and it is part of
the xml spec. good processors will do this.

Yes, very true... and this was true before the errata, even. Perhaps it is
just my desire to "keep it simple" but I like the idea of not using
locale-specific encodings. I guess I am just a Unicode bigot now? 

michka

Re: Using Unicode in XML

[Markus Scherer]

"Michael (michka) Kaplan" wrote:
> > there, it now also recommends (though it does not force) for xml clients
> to recognize u+feff for utf-8 (the bytes ef bb bf) and many other byte
> combinations.
> > there is a link to the errata at the beginning of the xml spec.
> 
> Where do you see this? The list below has all the errata that mention the
> word encoding in them. E44 Substantive does say that EF BB BF is UT-8, but
> it makes no comment even approaching a recommendation.

what more do you need?
appendix f describes a way for conforming xml processors that support encodings other 
than utf-8 and utf-16 to autodetect the encoding family. e44 extends the list of 
initial bytes to include the utf-8 signature.

this all is non-normative, i.e., an xml processor may choose to support only utf-8 and 
utf-16, and only the latter with the signature (bom), but there is a good way to 
recognize many more input streams, and it is part of the xml spec. good processors 
will do this.

markus

Re: Splitting lists

[Sarasvati]

Darling Unicadettes,

Some of you wrote to me...

> How about a news server with these categories?

and

> I would like to receive 1 mail
> per day with all the information exchanges in it

When last this thread of separation wound its way
through the list, someone set up two relays that might
be of interest to people who wish to receive daily
digests or view running archives.  The relays are:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sarasvati provides only a real-time streaming service
with no frills, no advertisements, no job postings,
and only occasional raw data dumps to an archive.  If you
need anything more delayed, bowdlerized, digested,
compressed, cross-indexed, shamelessly advertised,
or shockingly censored... there you may find the
vice of your dreams.

Cheery regards from your,
-- Sarasvati

Multi-Lingual Functionality.

[ravikumar ghanta]

   Hi, Being as a Oracle DBA I could able to support the languages like
   French and Spanish in Oracle 8i. I installed the both languages
   while installing Oracle software. Also set database character set as  
UTF8, National Character set WE8ISO8859P1, National language as Spanish and 
language territory as Spain.

   Now I logged into system as a user Demo and selected the   information 
from table by name "employee", I could able to get only the
comment information like "14 rows selected" in spanish not the other  stuff 
of table is translated.
   Please advice me where I struckup.
  Ravi

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation

[Peter_Constable]

Julie:

>If you or anyone else is interested in submitting a translation for this
page,
>please contact me privately.  We have several translations in the
pipeline...

Would you be able to share the list of languages represented with us?



- Peter


---
Peter Constable

Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Splitting lists

[Timothy Partridge]

Sarasvati recently said:

> Munzir Taha wrote:
>
> > I vote to your suggestion of opening a separate list.
>
> Recently there have been a few suggestions for dividing
> the list into separate lists.  Unfortunately, Sarasvati
> runs a Benevolent Dictatorship, not an Athenian Democracy,
> and she believes in Bacchanalian co-educational experiences
> for all.

I don't think we're ready for a touch of satyr.

   Tim

-- 
Tim Partridge. Any opinions expressed are mine only and not those of my employer

RE: APL letters

[Murray Sargent]

One interesting possibility for representing the APL italic characters would
be to use the math italic alphabet in plane 1. The motivation for their use
in APL is similar to that for the math case: the characters are separate
symbols, e.g., they don't get grouped into natural language words.  In fact,
they typically represent math variables, so using the same notation is
natural as well as helpful if you want to write an APL program to study a
mathematical expression.

Murray 

> -Original Message-
> From: Frank da Cruz [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 8:55 AM
> To:   Unicode List
> Subject:  APL letters
> 
> Sorry for not remembering the outcome of previous discussions on this...
> 
> The character set used by APL programming language includes special forms
> of the uppercase Latin letters A-Z, usually italized and/or underlined.
> 
> In an APL program, one might also need to include regular uppercase Latin
> letters A-Z, e.g. in character strings.
> 
> I don't remember APL well enough to recall whether this is an important
> distinction or simply a matter of style.  If it's a significant
> distinction,
> what the Unicode position on how to maintain it in a APL program written
> in Unicode 3.0?  If the answer is that there is no distinction, will this
> change because of STIX?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Frank

RE: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation of

[Julie Doll Allen]

Roozbeh,

>May one submit translations for the page?
(http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html

If you or anyone else is interested in submitting a translation for
this page, please contact me privately.  We have several translations
in the pipeline, so there are a few languages we do not need even
though they are not yet up on our site.  In general, I will be happy
to receive translations, but I can't absolutely guarantee that we will
post every single one of them.

Julie Allen
Editor (and misc. web person)
Unicode, Inc.

CJK: Subset of Unicode to represent Japanese Kanji? (was: Thought

[Marco . Cimarosti]

Michael W. Martin
> For a device that will print a relatively basic label (such 
> as sequence
> number, date, time, name, department, etc) onto a document in 
> Japanese --
> what is your consensus?  Basic Kanji+Hiragana+Katakana or will
> Hiragana+Katakana or just Katakana suffice?

My vote is that kanji are definitely needed in a decent application, in year
2000.

If your customers would accept a katakana-only system, I bet that they would
also accept an English-only system... The Hiragana+katakana solution sounds
odd to me (I naively associate hiragana with kanji).

The number field presumably uses western digits. Date and time field only
need a handful of kanji for "year", "month", "day", "hour", "minute", etc.
But these *have* to be used: even if everything else is in katakana, a
Japanese would expect to see these very basic kanji. (E.g., I have an old
Japanese pocket computer whose single-byte character set includes katakana,
a few graphic symbols *and* the dozen-less kanjis needed in dates).

About the name and department fields, you should be more precise:

1) Is the name a person's name (e.g. the customer) or does it come from a
small closed set (e.g. the device's model name, the film type, the
description of requested processing, etc.)?

2) What is the department field: a number or an "alpha"-numeric string?

3) Where do these strings come from (e.g. static text, or typed on the
device itself, or uploaded from a remote computer)?

If people's or places' names are involved, you have no choice: you have to
implement at *least* the whole JIS X 0208 set (and, BTW, this is not even
enough to protect yourself from occasional complaints from people whose name
contain unusual kanji).

Question 3 is particularly important, because if the text is arbitrary and
it is typed on a standard computer, your device necessarily needs to support
the same character set as the host -- unless you also write the host
application and its input method, and can thus impose your limits at the
source.

_ Marco

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[john]

> Another one I've seen frequently over the past few years
> is the use of "loose" instead of "lose."  I find this
> one particularly jarring.

I learned that one when I lost a spelling bee at the
age of about 9; my father kidded me about it because
of cousins named Loos.

Much more irritating recently on the net is "alot"
instead of "a lot".

And my most common typo is probably "teh".

Splitting lists

[Sarasvati]

Munzir Taha wrote:

> I vote to your suggestion of opening a separate list.

Recently there have been a few suggestions for dividing
the list into separate lists.  Unfortunately, Sarasvati
runs a Benevolent Dictatorship, not an Athenian Democracy,
and she believes in Bacchanalian co-educational experiences
for all.  Thus, voting for a diaspora is unlikely to be
very effective, but sacrificial flowers are still welcome.

Your faithful servant with the lotus feet,

-- Sarasvati

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[john]

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Precisely not to lose the final consonant.  The French, in their
> infinite wisdom, have decreed that the last letter shall always
> be silent (with annoying exceptions like "avec"); this makes
> their language easy to pronounce and impossible to spell.
> Of course, this is emphatically a case of the pot calling the
> kettle black

Also, sometimes, the first letter is (nearly) silent.
For me, the difficulty with French is more in the hearing
of it because of all those (nearly) silent letters that
make many words and syllables sound the same to my ears.

I had a heck of a time understanding my friend Hervé, even
when he spoke English.  One English word that repeatedly
tripped me up was "array", which he pronounced ARR-ray,
emphasizing and lengthening the 1st syllable, while
shortening the 2nd.

Re: Thoughts

[addison]

My impression: you need at least basic kanji characters (plus the two
kanas and the Western European characters). You can probably leave off the
wide equivalents of Western characters. Ditto Cyrillic and Greek
characters. You may wish to consider eliminating the "wide" kana
characters.

Numbers in Japan are represented with the same characters we use in the
USA.

Dates can be represented numerically, but you should use the
"day" "month" and "year" symbols (kanji).

Times are numeric.

Names are tough: many Japanese names use lesser-used kanji or specialized
(even custom) characters. Total support for names is a problem area (I
doubt you'll allow users to design their own kanji characters).

That said, I believe that Japanese users will understand a limitation to
the Shift-JIS range (the JIS X 0208 standard).

Other text fields should support the basic kanji (at least). But the
additional storage isn't that much: why not support all of the kanji
characters? Then you won't have to revisit this issue (until you add
Chinese)...

Not to ramble too much, but if you support text entry from outside your
device (and you appear to), you will see a large proportion of the kanji
range coming at you. Printing empty black squares is not very consumer
friendly in this regard ;-)

Although you regard your application as simple, I submit that limiting the
range of kanji you support (if you allow external entry of any kind) will
result in confusion from users, who do not memorize which grade level they
learned a particular character in and won't understand why this common
character works and that one doesn't.

Regards,

Addison

===
Addison P. Phillips Principal Consultant
Inter-Locale LLChttp://www.inter-locale.com
Globalization Engineering & Consulting Services

+1 408.210.3569 (mobile)+1 408.904.4762 (fax)
===

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> 
> From: MICHAEL W. MARTIN
> 
> Again, thanks to all those who have provided information on the Japanese
> character subset of Unicode.
> 
> For a device that will print a relatively basic label (such as sequence
> number, date, time, name, department, etc) onto a document in Japanese --
> what is your consensus?  Basic Kanji+Hiragana+Katakana or will
> Hiragana+Katakana or just Katakana suffice?
> 
> Thanks!
> Mike
> 
> 
> 

Re: Arabic CP-1256 to Unicode?

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

Are you on a Windows platform? You could run the whole thing through
MultiByteToWideChar with a cp of 1256, and then you will be in UCS-2/UTF-16.

michka


- Original Message -
From: "Akil Fahd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: Arabic CP-1256 to Unicode?


> How can I convert a HTML file encoded in cp 1256 to unicode, without doing
> it character by character? Is there software that will do this?
>
> Akil
>
> 
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

RE: Arabic CP-1256 to Unicode?

[Chris Wendt]

Open the page in Internet Explorer.
Choose File.SaveAs and change "Save as type" to "Web page, HTML only",
change Encoding to "Unicode (UTF-8)" and click the Save button.


-Original Message-
From: Akil Fahd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 9:31 AM
To: Unicode List
Subject: Arabic CP-1256 to Unicode? 


How can I convert a HTML file encoded in cp 1256 to unicode, without doing 
it character by character? Is there software that will do this?

Akil


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Thoughts

[michael . w . martin1]

From: MICHAEL W. MARTIN

Again, thanks to all those who have provided information on the Japanese
character subset of Unicode.

For a device that will print a relatively basic label (such as sequence
number, date, time, name, department, etc) onto a document in Japanese --
what is your consensus?  Basic Kanji+Hiragana+Katakana or will
Hiragana+Katakana or just Katakana suffice?

Thanks!
Mike

Arabic CP-1256 to Unicode?

[Akil Fahd]

How can I convert a HTML file encoded in cp 1256 to unicode, without doing 
it character by character? Is there software that will do this?

Akil


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: APL letters

[Frank da Cruz]

John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Frank da Cruz wrote:
> > The character set used by APL programming language includes special forms
> > of the uppercase Latin letters A-Z, usually italized and/or underlined.
>
> TUS3.0, pp. 302-03:
>
> # APL (A Programming Language) makes extensive use of functional symbols
> # constructed by composition with other, more primitive functional symbols.
>
OK, sorry, I should have added the qualification: "in an environment where
composition is not an option, e.g. in a Windows NT Console window using a
Unicode font, where composition is not allowed."

- Frank

Re: Separate list for Arabic Extended discussions?

[Peter_Constable]

On 07/17/2000 06:39:52 AM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I would vote that UNICODE, host mailing lists
>on Script level, becuase, issues discussed of CJK
>are not much related to Roman and Arabic.

I liked the recent suggestion of adding tags like "[CJK]" (or "(CJK)") to
the subject. In general, ISO 15924 tags could be used, but reasonably
obvious alternatives should also be acceptable (e.g. CJK, or Romn instead
of Latn). Other subject tags for topics other than scripts could be used,
e.g. (bidi), (conv) (= "encoding conversion"), (cdpg) or whatever seems to
fit. I don't think a specific list of tags is needed; just something that
provides a general clue. And if no short tag would be obvious, then you
just don't bother with one.

A recent thread had subject lines beginning with "OT:" (indicating
"off-topic"). I like the use of square brackets, but a recent observation
was made that these won't work for all. Perhaps this colon convention, e.g.
"CJK:", would be another good way to do this.

Of course, these conventions can't be enforced on the list; it can only be
voluntary. So, those that think it's a good idea, just start doing it. If
it proves to be helpful, others will probably follow suit.


- Peter


---
Peter Constable

Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: APL letters

[John Cowan]

Frank da Cruz wrote:
 
> The character set used by APL programming language includes special forms
> of the uppercase Latin letters A-Z, usually italized and/or underlined.

TUS3.0, pp. 302-03:

# APL (A Programming Language) makes extensive use of functional symbols
# constructed by composition with other, more primitive functional symbols.
# It made extensive use of backspace and overstrike mechanisms in early
# computer implementations.  In principle, functional composition [typographical,
# not mathematical!] is productive in APL; in practice, however, a small
# number of composed functional symbols have become [used as] standard
# operators in APL.  This relatively small set is encoded in [its] entirety
# [at U+2300-U+23FF].  All other APL symbols can be encoded by composition
# of other Unicode characters.  For example, the APL symbol _a underbar_
# can be represented by U+0061 plus U+0332 COMBINING LOW LINE.

-- 

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

Oops

[Doug Ewell]

In a message about typos and language abuse, I wrote:

> -Doug Ewell
>  Fulletron, California
   ^
instead of "Fullerton," which I guess is my own geeky irony.

-Doug

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[Doug Ewell]

Brendan Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Otto Stolz wrote:
>> This reminds me to an observation that has puzzled me for years:
>> I have often seen native "that" written in place of "than".
>
> I can't think of anywhere this might occur, but the one that I've
> noticed keeps popping up (and is extremely irritating) is the use of
> "of" instead of "have", as in "I could of".

This is not a typo like "that"/"than", but an infamous and despicable
illiteracy caused by a complete lack of understanding of the purpose of
the auxiliary verb "have" and reinforced by the homophone "could've."
Native English speakers who write "could of" need to go back to second
grade.  Sorry, I guess I got carried away there.

-Doug Ewell
 Fulletron, California

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[Peter_Constable]

On 07/17/2000 06:49:00 AM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I confirm the observation, and suspect the problem is confined to typing:

I have observed myself making errors that are specifically related to
typing.

>(On a personal note, my most common typo, which has persisted for
>some 25 years, is "reutnr" for "return".)

One error I have often made over the years (and I just did it again in the
work "made") is to type "k" in place of "d", and vice versa - getting the
right finger but the wrong hand.


- Peter


---
Peter Constable

Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

APL letters

[Frank da Cruz]

Sorry for not remembering the outcome of previous discussions on this...

The character set used by APL programming language includes special forms
of the uppercase Latin letters A-Z, usually italized and/or underlined.

In an APL program, one might also need to include regular uppercase Latin
letters A-Z, e.g. in character strings.

I don't remember APL well enough to recall whether this is an important
distinction or simply a matter of style.  If it's a significant distinction,
what the Unicode position on how to maintain it in a APL program written
in Unicode 3.0?  If the answer is that there is no distinction, will this
change because of STIX?

Thanks!

- Frank

RE: Separate list for Arabic Extended discussions?

[Marco . Cimarosti]

N.R.Liwal wrote:
> I would vote that UNICODE, host mailing lists
> on Script level, becuase, issues discussed of CJK
> are not much related to Roman and Arabic.
> If there are several lists like:
> Arabic...
> ect.
> If one wish to participate in all that should be an option.
> but still if all are happy to stay togeather I am too.

You could do it on your own: just start a new mailing list somewhere else,
then subscribe it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as a post-only member. You can do
such a thing by sending an email like this:

TO: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SUBJECT: subscribe
subscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] unicode
disable [EMAIL PROTECTED] unicode

Where "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" is your hypothetical new list, and "disable"
tells the Unicode server not to send [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages to your
list.

What should happen, is that [EMAIL PROTECTED] members will see all posts
to the [EMAIL PROTECTED], but [EMAIL PROTECTED] members will not see
other [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages.

Some drawbacks are:

1) [EMAIL PROTECTED] members won't even see replies to their own message
from [EMAIL PROTECTED], unless you allow non-members to post on the your
list (but this exposes you to spam), and [EMAIL PROTECTED] members bother
to CC the [EMAIL PROTECTED] when talking about Arabic script.

2) People joining both mailing lists may receive double messages.

3) You miss Arabic-related discussion on [EMAIL PROTECTED], unless someone
bothers to forward them to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

4) And other problems that only Sarasvati can anticipate...

_ Marco

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[Mark Leisher]

Brendan> I can't think of anywhere this might occur, but the one that I've
Brendan> noticed keeps popping up (and is extremely irritating) is the use
Brendan> of "of" instead of "have", as in "I could of".

The contraction of "could" and "have," which should be spelled "could've,"
seldom appears in published materials.  A lot of people only hear it spoken,
so it isn't very surprising they render it as "could of."

Another one I've seen frequently over the past few years is the use of "loose"
instead of "lose."  I find this one particularly jarring.
-
Mark Leisher
Computing Research LabOnce you fully apprehend the vacuity of a
New Mexico State University   life without struggle, you are equipped
Box 30001, Dept. 3CRL with the basic means of salvation.
Las Cruces, NM  88003-- Tennessee Williams

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Peter_Constable]

On 07/16/2000 04:07:06 PM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Anyway, I must have missed some prior e-mails, because I couldn't
>tell why we seemed to be trying to agree on the pronounciation.

Must be we're bored. :-)



- Peter


---
Peter Constable

Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I could of been a contender (was Re: OT: English speakers' typo)

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Otto Stolz wrote:
> > This reminds me to an observation that has puzzled me for years:
> > I have often seen native "that" written in place of "than".
>
> I can't think of anywhere this might occur, but the one that I've noticed
> keeps popping up (and is extremely irritating) is the use of "of" instead
of
> "have", as in "I could of".

I believe this one is a case of speech corrupting text "could have"
becomes "could've" (vulgar contraction, usually only spoken) and it sounds
enough like "could of" that people think they are saying THAT, instead.

michka

P.S. I was tempted to say THAN instead of THAT in the last sentence but
figured some people would miss the subtle (linguistically geeky) irony.

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Peter_Constable]

On 07/17/2000 04:30:22 AM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>This is getting way off-topic...

*Getting*? I thought it already was!


- Peter


---
Peter Constable

Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[brendan_murray]

Otto Stolz wrote:
> This reminds me to an observation that has puzzled me for years:
> I have often seen native "that" written in place of "than".

I can't think of anywhere this might occur, but the one that I've noticed keeps popping up (and is extremely irritating) is the use of "of" instead of "have", as in "I could of".

B=

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[John Cowan]

Antoine Leca wrote:

> While in French there is no doubt we don't have an initial [ju-], which
> would imediately be interpreted (at least in Paris) as "Frenglish"
> pedantry, we sometimes write (and more often speak) "de Unicode"
> ([d@ ,ynikod] yes there is a little stop before the [y]).

And then why is "Unix" not [yni]?  And is it feminine, as the ending
suggests?

-- 

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[John Cowan]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > Where do you see alternatives? It is pronounced [ynikOd], obviously.
> > No place for any doubt here.
> 
> Why not [yniko]? In France you drink a lot of [p@Rno], not [p@Rnod].

That would be spelled "Unicod", which in English would refer to a certain
whitefish

> And, anyway, the correct pronunciation is [uni'kode]. What's the purpose of
> writing a final vowel if you don't read it?
> 
> :-) Marco

Precisely not to lose the final consonant.  The French, in their infinite
wisdom, have decreed that the last letter shall always be silent (with annoying
exceptions like "avec"); this makes their language easy to pronounce and
impossible to spell.  Of course, this is emphatically a case of the pot
calling the kettle black

-- 

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[John Cowan]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'm glad to see that the initial [j-] is not in discussion!

I think that no English word, other than non-English proper names, has /u/
for initial "u".  Of course, sounds other than /ju/ are possible!
A classic test for spotting an (anglophone) chemist is to present him
with the string UNIONIZED and ask for the pronunciation.  Non-chemists
say /'junjVnaizd/ and mean "organized into a labor union"; chemists
say /Vn'ai@naizd/ and mean "not ionized".

-- 

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

Re: OT: English speakers' typo

[John Cowan]

Otto Stolz wrote:

> This reminds me to an observation that has puzzled me for years:
> I have often seen native "that" written in place of "than".

I confirm the observation, and suspect the problem is confined to
typing: I find it inconceivable that any native speaker (short of brain damage)
would say or hear "that" for "than", or even handwrite it.

I suspect that the greater frequency of "that", plus its repeated
consonant, makes it seductive to the rapidly typing fingers.

(On a personal note, my most common typo, which has persisted for
some 25 years, is "reutnr" for "return".)

-- 

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

Re: Separate list for Arabic Extended discussions?

[N.R.Liwal]

I would vote that UNICODE, host mailing lists
on Script level, becuase, issues discussed of CJK
are not much related to Roman and Arabic.

If there are several lists like:

Arabic...
CJK
Roman
ect.
If one wish to participate in all that should be an option.
but still if all are happy to stay togeather I am too.

Liwal


- Original Message - 
From: Bob Hallissy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 3:30 PM
Subject: Separate list for Arabic Extended discussions?


> 
> 
> 
> 
>>The good Idea will be if UNICODE provide us a Separete list
>>Called "Arabic & Extended Languages" or I can host one, if
>>anyone is interested let me know by email to
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>As a reader of the Unicode list, I would like to encourage you
>to keep this topic on this list rather than move to a separate
>list. First of all I do not think that the traffic to-date on
>this topic is too much for the list to handle. Second of all,
>developers everywhere who are implementing Unicode based
>solutions need to be made aware of these issues -- if you move
>the discussion to a separate list then you loose the
>visibility/publicity that being on this list provides. Finally,
>there is both wisdom and historical knowledge available within
>this list's membership that can be brought to bear on solving
>these problems.
> 
>Regards,
>Bob Hallissy
> 
> 
> 

Re: Decimal separator

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Bob Hallissy wrote:

>and I would expect use of U+060C as a decimal separator to
>cause surprises with the bidi layout code.

It will.

>Why not encode documents with U+066B for the decimal separator,
>and then develop fonts that have the culturally correct glyph
>in that spot?

This is the right thing to do. 

--roozbeh

Decimal separator

[Bob Hallissy]

   On Fri, July 14, 2000, N.R.Liwal wrote:

   > In my fonts for Pashto, Farsi and Urdu, the Decimal Separator
and thousnad sparator are:
   >
   > Decimal Separator ="\x060c"
   > Thousand Separator ="\x066c"
   >
   > Infact the above was standardized in Afghanistan and
   Pakistan, while using the Hindi Numbering system.

   I'm not sure whether you are saying that

   1) Users need to use U+060C for a decimal separator in their
   document files, or
   2) The shape you see at U+060C in your fonts is the one you
   want for decimal separator.

   If you mean (1), then I think users will not always see the
   text correctly rendered.  The Unicode bidi properties of U+060C
   and U+066B are different:

   060C;ARABIC COMMA;Po;0;CS;N;
   066B;ARABIC DECIMAL SEPARATOR;Po;0;AN;N;

   and I would expect use of U+060C as a decimal separator to
   cause surprises with the bidi layout code.


   Why not encode documents with U+066B for the decimal separator,
   and then develop fonts that have the culturally correct glyph
   in that spot?

   Bob Hallissy

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Antoine Leca]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Only Michel Suignard's French translation
> (http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#French)
> implicitly assumes no initial [j-], as he uses "d'Unicode" ([duni,kod] or
> [dyni,kod]) vs. *"de Unicode" ([d@ juni,kod]).

While in French there is no doubt we don't have an initial [ju-], which
would imediately be interpreted (at least in Paris) as "Frenglish"
pedantry, we sometimes write (and more often speak) "de Unicode"
([d@ ,ynikod] yes there is a little stop before the [y]).

I believe the most correct way is to always add an "euphonic" name
interspeded, like « la norme Unicode » ou « le standard Unicode »
ou « le jeu de caractères Unicode ».

We have a similar problem with some departments whose name is the
union of two rivers, like Meurthe-et-Moselle;  The proper way to spell
it is to use « le département de M.-et-M. », and never *"la M.-et-M."


Antoine

Re: English quirks

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

I have seen similar lists with titles like "21 reasons why localizers have
no problems justifying their rates" :-)

But in any case, thanks for the early morning chuckle

michka


- Original Message -
From: "Hart, Edwin F." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 5:27 AM
Subject: English quirks


> 21 Reasons Why the English Language is so Hard to Learn
>
>
>
> The bandage was wound around the wound.
>
> The farm was used to produce produce.
>
> The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
>
> We must polish the Polish furniture.
>
> He could lead if he would get the lead out.
>
> The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
>
> Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present
> the present.
>
> A bass fish was painted on the head of the bass drum.
>
> When he shot at the dove, it dove into the bushes.
>
> I did not object to the object.
>
> The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
>
> There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
>
> They were too close to the door to close it.
>
> The buck does funny things when the does are present.
>
> A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
>
> To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
>
> The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
>
> After a number of injections my jaw got number.
>
> Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
>
> I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
>
> How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
>
>

Re: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation of

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

I hope so I just sent one in yesterday (Simplified Chinese) and have a
couple more I am looking into doing.

michka


- Original Message -
From: "Roozbeh Pournader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Unicode List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation of


>
> May one submit translations for the page?
>
> --roozbeh
>
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Notice that also the Arabic translation by Mike Ksar
> > (http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#Arabic)
> > explicitly assumes an initial [j-]: his Arabic transliteration,
> > re-transliterated, is "Yuwnikuwd" (the short "i" being just my guess).
>
>

RE: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Marco Piovanelli]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:04:11 -0800 (GMT-0800),
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

>I'm glad to see that the initial [j-] is not in discussion! Knowing that
>"Unicode" begins with a consonant, I can finally select the proper definite
>article in Italian: it is thus "lo Unicode", not "l'Unicode".

This is getting way off-topic, but I couldn't resist...

Just because a word begins with a consonant doesn't rule out
the use of an apostrophe.  For instance, "uovo" (Italian for
"egg") is pronounced /'wOvo/ but takes the truncated form
of the article: "l'uovo" /'lwOvo/.

But yes, I say "lo Unicode", not "l'Unicode", so I guess
what all this discussion boils down to is that Italian has
different truncation rules for initial /j/ and /w/.


  -- marco

RE: (off-topic and rambling) Subset of Unicode to represent

[michael . w . martin1]

From: MICHAEL W. MARTIN

>> Actually, we're off making wild assumptions about the nature of
Michael's
>> problems with no data to work with...

Sorry about that... it was not my intention to keep you in the dark. =)

The project I'm working on must support Japanese, but in a very limited way
-- most of the time only a "label" of some sort (date, time, a department,
someone's name, etc).  I must decide what minimal subset of Unicode will be
needed to "adequately" support several languages, one of which of course,
is Japanese.  The meaning of "adequate" in my situation is somewhat fuzzy.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and provided
explanation and insight!

Mike

English quirks

[Hart, Edwin F.]

21 Reasons Why the English Language is so Hard to Learn



The bandage was wound around the wound.

The farm was used to produce produce.

The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.

We must polish the Polish furniture.

He could lead if he would get the lead out.

The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.

Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present
the present.

A bass fish was painted on the head of the bass drum.

When he shot at the dove, it dove into the bushes.

I did not object to the object.

The insurance was invalid for the invalid.

There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.

They were too close to the door to close it.

The buck does funny things when the does are present.

A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.

To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.

The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

After a number of injections my jaw got number.

Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.

I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.

How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

Re: Translations for What is Unicode (was RE: Pronunciation of

[Roozbeh Pournader]

May one submit translations for the page?

--roozbeh

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Notice that also the Arabic translation by Mike Ksar
> (http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#Arabic)
> explicitly assumes an initial [j-]: his Arabic transliteration,
> re-transliterated, is "Yuwnikuwd" (the short "i" being just my guess).

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan]

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> And, anyway, the correct pronunciation is [uni'kode]. What's the purpose
of
> writing a final vowel if you don't read it?

Traditional use of English and the silent final E, perhaps? And every
langauge has its points which could easily be considered silly by anyone

michka

Separate list for Arabic Extended discussions?

[Bob Hallissy]

   >The good Idea will be if UNICODE provide us a Separete list
   >Called "Arabic & Extended Languages" or I can host one, if
   >anyone is interested let me know by email to
   >[EMAIL PROTECTED]

   As a reader of the Unicode list, I would like to encourage you
   to keep this topic on this list rather than move to a separate
   list. First of all I do not think that the traffic to-date on
   this topic is too much for the list to handle. Second of all,
   developers everywhere who are implementing Unicode based
   solutions need to be made aware of these issues -- if you move
   the discussion to a separate list then you loose the
   visibility/publicity that being on this list provides. Finally,
   there is both wisdom and historical knowledge available within
   this list's membership that can be brought to bear on solving
   these problems.

   Regards,
   Bob Hallissy

Re: .TTF to .GIFs--& back again...

[Valeriy E. Ushakov]

On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 16:12:53 -0800, Robert Wheelock wrote:

> 1.  Convert a TrueType (or EPS Type 1) font's characters into
> individual .GIF (or .BMP) images

GhostScript?  It dropped gif support because of licensing issues, but
supports plenty of other graphic formats.  You just need to wrtite a
little script.


> 2.  The reverse-use individual .GIF (or .BMP) images to build a
> useful TrueType (or EPS Type 1) font.

FontLab with ScanFont .  FontLab is generally
regarded as being the best font editor.  Drawing glyphs from scratch
is a weakness of FontLab v3.x, so several font designers I know prefer
to draw somewhere else (e.g. Fontographer) but do all other work in
FontLab.  But since you work with scans, this weakness should be
irrelevant in your situation.

Or you can try your luck with GNU fontutils (limn + bzrto).

SY, Uwe
-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Zu Grunde kommen
http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/|   Ist zu Grunde gehen

RE: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Marco . Cimarosti]

Antoine Leca wrote:
> Where do you see alternatives? It is pronounced [ynikOd], obviously.
> No place for any doubt here.

Why not [yniko]? In France you drink a lot of [p@Rno], not [p@Rnod].

And, anyway, the correct pronunciation is [uni'kode]. What's the purpose of
writing a final vowel if you don't read it?

:-) Marco

Re: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Antoine Leca]

John Cowan wrote:
> 
> "John H. Jenkins" wrote:
> 
> > [W]e can't agree on a pronunciation of "Unicode."
> 
> What are the usual alternatives? 

Where do you see alternatives? It is prononced [ynikOd], obviously.
No place for any doubt here.


;-)

Antoine

RE: Pronunciation of "Unicode"

[Marco . Cimarosti]

> There are distinct ['ju ni kowd] and ['ju n@ kowd] camps, as well as 
> a small [ju 'ni kowd] contingent (if I understand your transcription 
> correctly).

I thought the alternatives were only ['junikoud] vs. ['unikoud].

I'm glad to see that the initial [j-] is not in discussion! Knowing that
"Unicode" begins with a consonant, I can finally select the proper definite
article in Italian: it is thus "lo Unicode", not "l'Unicode".

So, the "(al)lo Unicode" that slipped in
"http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#Italian" was not
a blunder, after all.

Notice that also the Arabic translation by Mike Ksar
(http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#Arabic)
explicitly assumes an initial [j-]: his Arabic transliteration,
re-transliterated, is "Yuwnikuwd" (the short "i" being just my guess).

Only Michel Suignard's French translation
(http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html#French)
implicitly assumes no initial [j-], as he uses "d'Unicode" ([duni,kod] or
[dyni,kod]) vs. *"de Unicode" ([d@ juni,kod]).

_ Marco

Re: Subset of Unicode to represent Japanese Kanji?

[Otto Stolz]

Am 2000-07-14 um 18:40 h UCT hat [EMAIL PROTECTED] geschrieben:
> I have only one "the" in English... and how many forms in German?

6.

Curtly,
   OS

OT: English speakers' typo

[Otto Stolz]

Am 2000-07-14 um 18:58 h UCT hat Kenneth Whistler geschrieben:
> Thus no one is going to confuse the verb ending -te with the noun te meaning
> "hand", any more than English speakers mix up "to", "too", and "two" or
> "their" and "there" when they hear them used in context.

This reminds me to an observation that has puzzled me for years:
I have often seen native "that" written in place of "than".

The T, and N, keys are so far apart that this cannot be a simple
slip of fingers. So the question is: how can these two words be
confused? Is there a dialect where these sound similar? And how
comes that I never have seen "than" in place of "that"?

Thank you for any enlightment,
best wishes,
   Otto Stolz