Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
David Starner wrote as follows. quote What good would a private use character do here? The private use area is good for Tengwar, Cirth and Shavian (all of which have multiple fonts using the same private use area encoding.) But there's no huge demand to interchange data with these characters, and the few users are probably going to use something less complex then the private use area. Assuming I scan this book in for Project Gutenberg, I'll probably use something like [3], [4], [4,] and [4,h] for the characters, at least in the ASCII version (and there'd be no reason to post a Unicode version if these characters aren't in Unicode.) It's simple, readable and precise, something your solution only has one of. end quote The size of the "demand" does not affect my suggestion. It is a matter of research in encoding scripts. Using the Private Use Area is not at all complex. If one has a font containing some Private Use Area characters the font can be used quite straightforwardly from within a program such as Microsoft Word using the Insert | Symbol facility which that program provides. Characters can also be accessed fairly straightforwardly from a program such as some issues of Microsoft WordPad using an Alt sequence, by holding down the Alt key and entering a decimal code point value using the number keys at the right of a PC keyboard, then releasing the Alt key. Project Gutenberg is a very valuable project. I have recently started reading the notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci which is available at Project Gutenberg. For a file using ASCII text, using [3], [4], [4,] and [4,h] for the characters is probably the only type of method available for the work and probably quite suitable as it gets the job done within the limits of the available technology. However, consider that that file could be processed using a short Pascal program using a eutocode typography file. The Pascal program would read in ASCII text and output a Unicode text file, converting certain character sequences or individual characters. The particular eutocode typography file for the conversion of the format which you suggest would only need five lines of a few characters each, provided that the figures 3 and 4 were only used within the file for those symbols and not as digits, unless you intend using the [ and ] characters as well as the digits. However, a Private Use Area encoding of the special symbols would be needed and a font to display them. If a Private Use Area encoding is produced for the special symbols used by missionaries in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, then a few fonts, from various fontmakers, might include the special symbols. Thus your suggested ASCII file for Project Gutenberg could be used to produce print outs using the correct special symbols if desired. The eutocode typography file format is described in the following document. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/ast03300.htm You suggest that using a Private Use Area encoding has only one of the three attributes of simplicity, readability and precision. I feel that a Private Use Area encoding could be reasonably simple. Care could be taken to make it as logically structured as possible within the limits of an on-going, a bit done now and then type activity, of adding in code point allocations as symbols are found in the literature. The experience gained could be useful when promotion to regular Unicode is considered formally, when the order of encoding used in the Private Use Area character set could be changed around as desired so as to produce a formal encoding. Certainly, without a suitable font readability would be a great problem. Yet once a Private Use Area encoding is published, font support may follow. A Private Use Area encoding can be precise provided that both the originator of a document using the encoding and the user of that document both know what is the encoding and that both have suitable facilities for applying the file which contains the document. In such circumstances the Private Use Area can be of great precision and very useful. For example, readers might like to have a look at the font COURTCOL.TTF which is described in, and downloadable from, the following web page. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/font7001.htm Readers might like to have a look at the way in which I have expressed the colours in monochrome then perhaps search at http://www.yahoo.com and other search engines using the two words Petra Sancta together for the search. I have tried some offline experiments with a Java applet and the results are good. I have also produced a font with 51 glyphs which includes those 19 glyphs and others for four sizes of type, various object replacement characters, various wait for push button push codes and various markers for producing a programmed learning package encoded within a text file using WordPad. Precision is essential for such an activity and the Private Use Area is used to provide that precision. Act
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 03:00:33PM -0800, Kenneth Whistler wrote: > > But I do find, in the vocabulary and > > index, words starting with tz are sorting after quatrillo con coma (it > > goes z, tresillo, quatrillo, quatrillo con coma, tz). So even for this > > text, a tz ligature is marginal. > > irrelevant to the sorting issue > > Whether this text element is spelled "tz" or "t-ezh" or something > else, and whether the characters are ligated or not, is irrelevant > to the issue of sorting the "tz" at the end of lists. True, but it indicates that "tz" is treated as a letter, and that tz is not different in meaning from the tz ligature in the text. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Einstein once said that it would be hard to teach in a co-ed college since guys were only looking on girls and not listening to the teacher. He was objected that they would be listening to _him_ very attentively, forgetting about any girls. But such guys won't be worth teaching, replied the great man.
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
I have documented some recent usage of cuatrillo and tresillo in linguistics publications at http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=RecentCuatrilloUse. (This page has a mechanism for leaving comments; I welcome anyone to provide comments or leave additional information there.) - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
Stefan Persson wrote: Michael Everson wrote: Shavian has graduated to encoded status, and Tengwar and Cirth will likely also do so. Really? I thought that it would not until Unicode 4.0 is published. Shavian, that is. Stefan
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
Stefan asked: > Michael Everson wrote: > > > Shavian has graduated to encoded status, and Tengwar and Cirth will > > likely also do so. > > Really? I thought that it would not until Unicode 4.0 is published. The Unicode 4.0 release is imminent -- we are anticipating mid-April for finalization of the data files and formal announcement of the version. The publication of the book will take a little longer -- September, maybe. But Shavian is already standardized -- neither WG2 nor the UTC can change it now. It is merely waiting on the publication train. As for Tengwar and Cirth -- well, those are, of course, still open issues. Neither committee has made any decisions on those yet. --Ken > > Stefan > >
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
From: "Kenneth Whistler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > and any such sequences as "quatrillo con coma" or "tz" which > need to be handled as units simply get contractions defined > for them in the collation element weighting tables. Or other, analogous methods to obtain the same results (for products that do not use the UCA). :-) MichKa [MS]
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
Michael Everson wrote: Shavian has graduated to encoded status, and Tengwar and Cirth will likely also do so. Really? I thought that it would not until Unicode 4.0 is published. Stefan
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
> But I do find, in the vocabulary and > index, words starting with tz are sorting after quatrillo con coma (it > goes z, tresillo, quatrillo, quatrillo con coma, tz). So even for this > text, a tz ligature is marginal. irrelevant to the sorting issue Whether this text element is spelled "tz" or "t-ezh" or something else, and whether the characters are ligated or not, is irrelevant to the issue of sorting the "tz" at the end of lists. That is handled by a different mechanism than character encoding, and any such sequences as "quatrillo con coma" or "tz" which need to be handled as units simply get contractions defined for them in the collation element weighting tables. --Ken
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 14:03 -0600 2003-03-28, David Starner wrote: What good would a private use character do here? The private use area is good for Tengwar, Cirth and Shavian (all of which have multiple fonts using the same private use area encoding.) Shavian has graduated to encoded status, and Tengwar and Cirth will likely also do so. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 10:00:30AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > For modern use, perhaps the tz could be represented just > as such, "tz", perhaps rendered with a ligature. Perhaps, though, it could > be argued that this should be encoded as a distinct (non-decomposible) > digraph character, comparable to U+02AB LATIN SMALL LETTER LZ DIGRAPH. Looking at my source more closely, I find only one other example of the tz ligature in the text. But I do find, in the vocabulary and index, words starting with tz are sorting after quatrillo con coma (it goes z, tresillo, quatrillo, quatrillo con coma, tz). So even for this text, a tz ligature is marginal. (If Unicode encodes the tresillo and quatrillo, and I transcribe this text, I may toss a ZWJ between the ligatured tz's. But I'm afraid that this will show up as an unknown character on some systems.) -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Einstein once said that it would be hard to teach in a co-ed college since guys were only looking on girls and not listening to the teacher. He was objected that they would be listening to _him_ very attentively, forgetting about any girls. But such guys won't be worth teaching, replied the great man.
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 04:36:19PM -, William Overington wrote: > For example, as a first suggestion, if U+E400 and > upwards were used for that purpose, would that be a suitable choice for the > various font makers who might like to consider adding such characters into > their existing fonts? What good would a private use character do here? The private use area is good for Tengwar, Cirth and Shavian (all of which have multiple fonts using the same private use area encoding.) But there's no huge demand to interchange data with these characters, and the few users are probably going to use something less complex then the private use area. Assuming I scan this book in for Project Gutenberg, I'll probably use something like [3], [4], [4,] and [4,h] for the characters, at least in the ASCII version (and there'd be no reason to post a Unicode version if these characters aren't in Unicode.) It's simple, readable and precise, something your solution only has one of. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Einstein once said that it would be hard to teach in a co-ed college since guys were only looking on girls and not listening to the teacher. He was objected that they would be listening to _him_ very attentively, forgetting about any girls. But such guys won't be worth teaching, replied the great man.
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
Phil Blair wrote as follows. quote 2.The Jesuits and other missionaries of the Age of Exploration worked and published intensively in then-exotic languages on four continents. There are scholars and groups of scholars now attempting to look systematically at that body of work. I suspect that there is no stange character that could turn up in a Maya text from that period that wouldn't also turn up in texts about South American, Asian, or African languages, and when we do deal with these characters it would be best to do it in a systematic and comprehensive way. They will all reflect a common origin in the missionary training institutions of Europe. end quote That research sounds fascinating. Do you have any details of who is doing the research please? I am not a linguist yet do have a great interest in the typographical aspects of the way special characters were printed by the early printers. I also have an interest in history so such a project would be doubly interesting for me. I suggest that a good idea would be if those of us who are interested could research the typography and printing aspects and that a Private Use Area encoding could be made of the special characters. Then various craft fontmakers might all use the same encoding and start to produce fonts which contain the characters. For example, as a first suggestion, if U+E400 and upwards were used for that purpose, would that be a suitable choice for the various font makers who might like to consider adding such characters into their existing fonts? The long term goal would be to get the characters promoted into regular Unicode, yet using the Private Use Area would allow documents to be encoded rather sooner than if one needs to wait for encoding into regular Unicode and any such documents encoded could be converted by an automated process at a later date. Indeed, using the Private Use Area in this manner and having font availability might help the research. My suggestion of U+E400 is as a basis for discussion: does anyone happen to know if the researchers have already started a Private Use Area encoding please as that possibility needs to be checked before starting a new encoding? Does anyone happen to know if any of the metal fonts, or matrices, of such characters survive from the sixteenth century please? From the general history of printing there does seem to be a great lack of surviving early printing type, which has always seemed strange to me, as well as unfortunate. William Overington 28 March 2003
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
. This PDF file, "Reference to space in colonial Quiché": http://home.snafu.de/duerr/PDF_Doku/Space.pdf ...has a reference to the cuatrillo and tresillo, uses a Greek lower case "ε" (U+03B5) for tresillo and a "g" for cuatrillo. "The spelling in these three editions is based on the conventions of 16th- and 17th-century Spanish. It is defective..." "Special graphemes are used inconsistently for glottalized consonants..." Words like "cuatrillo" are also used for musical notation in Spanish, http://www.mrjam.com/cmm/mp3/contlm%20copia/udlm1/ud14.htm >From this page, quadruplet is expressed as cuatrillo in Spanish: http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/lilypond/WWW/lilypond.org/stable/Documentation/user/out -www/glossary.html quadruplet ES: cuatrillo, I: quartina, F: quartolet, D: Quartole, NL: kwartool, DK: kvartol, S: kvartol Best regards, James Kass .
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
All I have is "The Annals of the Cakchiquels", published in 1885. I don't have any modern information. On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 03:38:15PM +, Michael Everson wrote: > Having said that, one would expect a good deal of research to be done > before approaching these. How many languages were they used for? At least Cakchiquel, Quiche, and Tzutuhil. > What > sounds do they represent? The tresillo is a trilled guttural. The cuatrillo is a trilled palatal, “between a hard _c_ and _k_”. The cuatrillo con coma is pronounced “somewhat like [...] ç, only more quickly and with greater force—_ds_ or _dz_.” The unnamed tz is “exactly the same as _tz_ in German.” And the cuatrillo con coma followed by an h is “produced by combining the cuatrillo with a forcible aspirate.” > Do > they appear in casing pairs? Not in my book. There are examples of "I. 4atun 4hutiah qui [...]", where a capital letter would have been used to start the sentence, but the same form of the cuatrillo is used. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Einstein once said that it would be hard to teach in a co-ed college since guys were only looking on girls and not listening to the teacher. He was objected that they would be listening to _him_ very attentively, forgetting about any girls. But such guys won't be worth teaching, replied the great man.
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
(Peter and I don't really disagree, but I'm playing devil's advocate here.) At 13:45 -0600 27/03/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03/27/2003 12:19:44 PM: >Is tresillo caseless? Yes. How do you know? OK, I don't have first-hand evidence. Then you don't say "Yes". But, I think it's pretty unlikely that there is case on the basis that: - this was clearly innovated from a caseless digit We have seen that case often accrues to lettricized digits. Compare Zhuang letters. - the source documenting this David mentioned apparently does not report a case pair I would not assume anything from one little pic like that about what the source actually documents. - the cuatrillo is a very similar situation, and while I have seen recent usage of that, I've not seen any evidence of a case pair Yet in the MS it may in fact have had case. The Algonquin letter OU is in that situation. Many modern users just use digit 8. But the original evidence for the charcter showed that before it was reanalyzed as 8 it had case. Of course, none of this is certain -- I'm making a conjecture (but one I feel is almost certainly true). I was not assuming that any character proposal was going to be based on my comments. I was merely suggesting for David's benefit what I think may be appropriate. Heh. You said "Yes" -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03/27/2003 12:19:44 PM: > >Is tresillo caseless? Yes. > > How do you know? OK, I don't have first-hand evidence. But, I think it's pretty unlikely that there is case on the basis that: - this was clearly innovated from a caseless digit - the source documenting this David mentioned apparently does not report a case pair - the cuatrillo is a very similar situation, and while I have seen recent usage of that, I've not seen any evidence of a case pair Of course, none of this is certain -- I'm making a conjecture (but one I feel is almost certainly true). I was not assuming that any character proposal was going to be based on my comments. I was merely suggesting for David's benefit what I think may be appropriate. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 11:17 -0600 27/03/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/27/2003 10:53:31 AM: Because, Peter, we do not encode things without knowing what they are > for and how and by whom they are used. Questions regarding use are > part of the Proposal Summary Form. But the question of use can be answered without specifying all the languages and phonemes. Sorry. I would never agree to encode a letter for which we had no idea of its use. "What languages is it used in" does not imply an exhaustive list, and "what sound was it intended to represent" allows comparison between the original use of the letter and modern orthographies. Such information is relevant. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 11:36 -0600 27/03/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is tresillo caseless? Yes. How do you know? -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03/27/2003 10:36:13 AM: > >Perhaps, though, it could be argued that this should be encoded as > >a distinct (non-decomposible) digraph character, comparable to > >U+02AB LATIN SMALL LETTER LZ DIGRAPH. > > Not without seeing evidence of how it's used, Peter. Agreed. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. > >One might represent the tresillo as U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E > >or its uppercase counterpart U+0190, though that's probably not a > >good choice as the tresillo is caseless. > > Is it? Is it caseless? Yes. > What does it mean? What phoneme was it used to represent, I do not know. > >Perhaps there are historiographers of Mayan linguistics that want to > >encode historic texts, or perhaps some Mayanists that, on occasion, > >want to be able to quote from these historic texts. > > As I say, one would like to see critical editions of those texts to > see what people are doing. Of course. I was not saying I think any of these things should be encoded yet, except perhaps the cuatrillo, which I have seen in relatively recent linguistics publications. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/27/2003 10:53:31 AM: > Because, Peter, we do not encode things without knowing what they are > for and how and by whom they are used. Questions regarding use are > part of the Proposal Summary Form. But the question of use can be answered without specifying all the languages and phonemes. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
David Starner wrote on 03/27/2003 12:54:18 AM: > I've found these characters in a book called "The Annals of the > Cakchiquels", by Daniel G. Brinton. Thanks for this sample. I have seen the cuatrillo in some (relatively) recent linguistics publications. Unfortunately, it was not explained in the one source I have actually collected (I haven't actively gone looking for it yet, but just happened upon it while looking for other things -- IJAL vol. 65, p. 456) so I appreciate the info. > Are these still in use anywhere? Are they > appropriate suspects for Unicode? There still appears to be *some* use of the cuatrillo, though not a huge amount. I'm inclined to think it's a candidate for encoding, and I've already considered proposing it. I have not seen the others in use, though. If the cuatrillo were encoded, the two variants could be represented using existing combining marks and modifier letters. For modern use, perhaps the tz could be represented just as such, "tz", perhaps rendered with a ligature. Perhaps, though, it could be argued that this should be encoded as a distinct (non-decomposible) digraph character, comparable to U+02AB LATIN SMALL LETTER LZ DIGRAPH. One might represent the tresillo as U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E or its uppercase counterpart U+0190, though that's probably not a good choice as the tresillo is caseless. So, it should be encoded as a distinct, if it's to be encoded. So, perhaps two letters, LATIN LETTER TRESILLO and LATIN SMALL LETTER TZ DIGRAPH, are candidates for encoding, but only if there's a user need, and I'm not aware of any. Perhaps there are historiographers of Mayan linguistics that want to encode historic texts, or perhaps some Mayanists that, on occasion, want to be able to quote from these historic texts. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 10:43 -0600 27/03/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > How many languages were they used for? What sounds do they represent? [...] I can understand the necessity of these questions except for the first two. Why would it be needed for encoding to know just what languages / phonemes these pertained to? Of course, if this info is available, it's nice to have it. Because, Peter, we do not encode things without knowing what they are for and how and by whom they are used. Questions regarding use are part of the Proposal Summary Form. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 03/27/2003 09:38:15 AM: > Having said that, one would expect a good deal of research to be done > before approaching these. How many languages were they used for? What > sounds do they represent? How do modern scholars producing critical > editions present them? (If they use digit 4, I would consider that to > be a fault in the character set or font, and, in my opinion, a Latin > letter should be added, because the quatrillo is not a quatro.) Do > they appear in casing pairs? On the face of it tz looks like a > ligature of t and z. I can understand the necessity of these questions except for the first two. Why would it be needed for encoding to know just what languages / phonemes these pertained to? Of course, if this info is available, it's nice to have it. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
wrote: > 1.They are not in use in current (and official and Maya-themselves- > endorsed) Maya orthographies, and there is no pressing need for them. > Their importance lies mostly in dealing with the history of Maya > studies, and in reprinting or transcribing old texts. Characters that were used in historically important orthographies are legitimate candidates for encoding. If the need for them is not urgent, then there is plenty of time to analyze and discuss them instead of rushing them through. > Since the days of de la Parra and Brinton there have been some > singularly ugly accomodations to the typewriter, like "7" for a > glottal stop, which I'd also like us to let moulder for a while too. This seems like a good argument *for* encoding the de la Parra letters, so modern-day transcribers won't have to resort to "4" and "4 with combining comma" and "ezh reversed" to represent them. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 10:00 -0600 27/03/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps, though, it could be argued that this should be encoded as a distinct (non-decomposible) digraph character, comparable to U+02AB LATIN SMALL LETTER LZ DIGRAPH. Not without seeing evidence of how it's used, Peter. One might represent the tresillo as U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E or its uppercase counterpart U+0190, though that's probably not a good choice as the tresillo is caseless. Is it? What does it mean? Perhaps there are historiographers of Mayan linguistics that want to encode historic texts, or perhaps some Mayanists that, on occasion, want to be able to quote from these historic texts. As I say, one would like to see critical editions of those texts to see what people are doing. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
At 00:54 -0600 27/03/2003, David Starner wrote: I've found these characters in a book called "The Annals of the Cakchiquels", by Daniel G. Brinton. They have a little history, as noted by the tag in the picture. The tz is for a tz sound, and is probably just a glyph variant of that character. The 4 is called a cuatrillo, the reversed three is called the tresillo, and the 4 with a comma is cuatrillo con coma. Are these still in use anywhere? Are they appropriate suspects for Unicode? In principle they are candidates for Unicode, as it is probable that there is a significant body of historical literature containing them, rather like yogh in Middle English. Having said that, one would expect a good deal of research to be done before approaching these. How many languages were they used for? What sounds do they represent? How do modern scholars producing critical editions present them? (If they use digit 4, I would consider that to be a fault in the character set or font, and, in my opinion, a Latin letter should be added, because the quatrillo is not a quatro.) Do they appear in casing pairs? On the face of it tz looks like a ligature of t and z. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Characters for Cakchiquel
I think these characters you have caught in de la Parra (as reported by Brinton) can best be left on the side-tracks for a while. Two reasons: 1.They are not in use in current (and official and Maya-themselves-endorsed) Maya orthographies, and there is no pressing need for them. Their importance lies mostly in dealing with the history of Maya studies, and in reprinting or transcribing old texts. Since the days of de la Parra and Brinton there have been some singularly ugly accomodations to the typewriter, like "7" for a glottal stop, which I'd also like us to let moulder for a while too. 2.The Jesuits and other missionaries of the Age of Exploration worked and published intensively in then-exotic languages on four continents. There are scholars and groups of scholars now attempting to look systematically at that body of work. I suspect that there is no stange character that could turn up in a Maya text from that period that wouldn't also turn up in texts about South American, Asian, or African languages, and when we do deal with these characters it would be best to do it in a systematic and comprehensive way. They will all reflect a common origin in the missionary training institutions of Europe. Phil
