Re: Exciting new software release!
John Hudson scripsit: > You're wrong. There are now plenty of true italic (i.e. cursive) sans serif > fonts; it has been a couple of decades at least since obliqued roman went > out of style for sans serif typefaces. Ah, thanks. The old error surrenders, but never dies. -- Do what you will, John Cowan this Life's a Fiction[EMAIL PROTECTED] And is made up of http://www.reutershealth.com Contradiction. --William Blake http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Re: Exciting new software release!
At 05:03 AM 4/4/2003, John Cowan wrote: There are, strictly speaking (some typographer correct me please if I am wrong), no italic sans serif fonts, but only slanted sans serif fonts. You're wrong. There are now plenty of true italic (i.e. cursive) sans serif fonts; it has been a couple of decades at least since obliqued roman went out of style for sans serif typefaces. Type designers at first introduced cursive forms into sans serif type cautiously (see, for example Hans Eduard Meier's Syntax italic, which is humanist but with a two-storey a and other features from the roman), but now it is typical to see sans serif italics completely implementing the range of letterforms normal to cursive italics. See, for some good examples http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/presencetypo/alinea-sans/italic/ http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/myriad/condensed-italic/ http://www.typofonderie.com/Alphabets/LMSans.asp http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/itc/stone-sans/medium-italic/ http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/feliciano/stella/lining-italic/ John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alone among the news networks, Jazeera gives you the impression there is a war going on, rather than a series of press conferences. http://www.reason.com/hod/tc032403.shtml
Re: Exciting new software release!
John Cowan wrote: There are, strictly speaking (some typographer correct me please if I am wrong), no italic sans serif fonts, but only slanted sans serif fonts. I believe Adobe Myriad claims a "true italic"; the letterforms are sans versions of standard italic letterforms, rather than obliques of the upright forms. -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/
Re: Exciting new software release!
At 08:03 -0500 2003-04-04, John Cowan wrote: There are, strictly speaking (some typographer correct me please if I am wrong), no italic sans serif fonts, but only slanted sans serif fonts. "Oblique" -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Exciting new software release!
William Overington scripsit: > How should that be set in Unicode plain text? Is it to use the letters for > cos from the range U+0020 to U+007E and then use U+1D466 for the y and > U+1D465 for the x? Just so. > I note that U+1D465 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL X in the code chart has the > following text accompanying the definition, following a symbol which looks > like a wavy equals sign with the word font within angled brackets which I > will not place in this email in case it upsets any email systems, so I will > herein use parentheses. > > (font) 0078 x latin small letter x > > Yet there would seem to be missing the concept that the character is an > italic of a serifed font. There are, strictly speaking (some typographer correct me please if I am wrong), no italic sans serif fonts, but only slanted sans serif fonts. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --_The Hobbit_
Re: Exciting new software release!
Stefan Persson wrote as follows. quote Well, let's say that I make a plain text document and include a mathematical formula or funtion such as "cos x", it would still be legal to use an italic "x" from the mathematical block, wouldn't it? This is what those characters are intended for, right? end quote In the days of letterpress printing, something such as y = cos x would have been set with the cos in roman type, probably from an ordinary serifed font, as might be used for ordinary book printing, and the y and the x in the italic version of the same typeface. I remember that the typeface Modern Roman, a serifed face with an upward hook on the end of a capital R character and a very open lowercase e character, was often used, though not exclusively. How should that be set in Unicode plain text? Is it to use the letters for cos from the range U+0020 to U+007E and then use U+1D466 for the y and U+1D465 for the x? I note that U+1D465 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL X in the code chart has the following text accompanying the definition, following a symbol which looks like a wavy equals sign with the word font within angled brackets which I will not place in this email in case it upsets any email systems, so I will herein use parentheses. (font) 0078 x latin small letter x Yet there would seem to be missing the concept that the character is an italic of a serifed font. When trying the MathText program I tried, as I mentioned before, to try to get MathText to produce Greek characters. This was mainly out of curiosity, having been studying, as part of the process of studying MathText, the U1D400.pdf code chart document rather than any immediate need, though with the thought that such a facility might be useful sometime and that, should such a situation arise, I could perhaps use MathText to generate the codes. Yet which Greek characters would I wish to use? Subsequent study of the U1D400.pdf document raises an interesting matter. I would probably want to use some of those in the range U+1D6FC MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL ALPHA through to U+1D71B MATHEMATICAL ITALIC PI SYMBOL. However, whereas I might well want to use U+1D6FC, the U+1D71B is a symbol which I have not seen before and indeed wonder what it is, bearing in mind the existence of U+1D70B MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL PI. Yet the interesting point which has arisen is this. The most common use of such italic letters would seem to be, from my own potential usage, would be for angles theta, phi and psi for expressing rotation angles. U+1D713 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL PSI for psi. U+1D703 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL THETA for theta rather than using U+1D717 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC THETA SYMBOL. U+1D719 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC PHI SYMBOL for phi, rather than using U+1D711 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL PHI. I seem to remember a discussion in this group about the two versions of phi in relation to ordinary Greek characters some time ago. William Overington 4 April 2003
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote as follows. >I'll mail it, or maybe repost it, after I finish applying a nice, THICK >coating. I'm thinking about one of those expired-shareware message >boxes where the OK button is disabled for the first five seconds. > >But I'd like to get this third-subtag question resolved first. Could you possibly consider making the checking facility a checkbox option please, which comes up already checked, so that explicit unchecking needs to be done in order not to have the checking. I am not thinking of going against recognized standards but always having checking might end up causing problems as time goes on. William Overington 4 April 2003
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote as follows. quote What happened to LTag? Well, as everybody knows, the Unicode Technical Committee strongly discourages the usage of these tags, to the point were they were almost deprecated earlier this year. They are permitted only in "special protocols," and are certainly frowned upon for use in arbitrary plain text, which is what LTag was for. So, in an attempt to restore some of my lost Unicode "street cred" I removed LTag from my site. I still keep the program around, but only as a reference to ISO 639 and 3166 codes. end quote Well, whether the tags were (italics) almost (end italics) deprecated earlier this year I do not know, yet the fact is that, after a lengthy and extended Public Review process as to whether to deprecate them, the tags were not deprecated but the situation was left broadly unaltered but with some additional notes to be included in the Unicode 4.0 document. It remains to observe what is to be put about tags in the Unicode 4.0 book. Whether tags will be used in interactive broadcasting as a feature used in (italics) some (end italics) content, such as with (italics) some (end italics) generic file handling packages for distance education, remains for the future, yet the option remains open. William Overington 4 April 2003
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell scripsit: > > Tags constructed wholly from the codes that are assigned > > interpretations by this chapter do not need to be registered with > > IANA before use. > > Does the "-ny" subtag fail this criterion because RFC 3066 does not > explicitly assign the ISO 3166-2 interpretation? Yes. The only forms that work even when unregistered are , , -, -, and private-use forms beginning with "x-", where is an ISO 639-1 code, is an ISO 639-2 code for a language that doesn't have an ISO 639-1 code, and is an ISO 3166-1 code. Unregistered codes are only safe if their interpretation is universally agreed on, which means that their forms must be specified in the RFC. > I'll mail it, or maybe repost it, after I finish applying a nice, THICK > coating. I'm thinking about one of those expired-shareware message > boxes where the OK button is disabled for the first five seconds. Good idea. > But I'd like to get this third-subtag question resolved first. ObPedantic: In the technical language of the RFC, it's the second subtag: foo-bar-baz has foo as the primary tag, bar as the first subtag, and baz as the second subtag. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --_The Hobbit_
Re: Exciting new software release!
Stefan Persson wrote: > Well, let's say that I make a plain text document and include a > mathematical formula or funtion such as "cos x", it would still be > legal to use an italic "x" from the mathematical block, wouldn't it? > This is what those characters are intended for, right? Absolutely. And it would be legitimate to use MathText to convert the "x" from U+0078 to U+1D465. What's not legal is using it to dress up ordinary text, 𝑙𝑖𝑘𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠, which I know is not what you had in mind. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Exciting new software release!
John Cowan wrote: >> ISO 3166-2 country >> subdivision codes were included too, so codes like en-us-ny (for New >> York English) could be constructed. > > In fact "en-us-ny" is syntactically well-formed, but cannot be used > unless registered with IANA, as it does not belong to the set of > preregistered codes. Eh? That's not how I read the following passage in RFC 3066 (section 2.2, toward the bottom of page 3): > There are no rules apart from the syntactic ones for the third and > subsequent subtags. > > Tags constructed wholly from the codes that are assigned > interpretations by this chapter do not need to be registered with > IANA before use. Does the "-ny" subtag fail this criterion because RFC 3066 does not explicitly assign the ISO 3166-2 interpretation? > I would like to see the return of the program, even if thickly coated > with deprecation warnings. Failing that, could you mail it to me? I'll mail it, or maybe repost it, after I finish applying a nice, THICK coating. I'm thinking about one of those expired-shareware message boxes where the OK button is disabled for the first five seconds. But I'd like to get this third-subtag question resolved first. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell schreef: > they also should not use Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols > to create bold, italic, or double-struck effects in plain text. Why not? I mean, I understand the Mathematical symbols are not intended for use as styled versions of normal text, but I read between the lines that characters such as these are ALWAYS frowned upon in plain text; are only meant to be used in specialized environments such as scientific formula editors? Pim Blokland
Re: Exciting new software release!
Pim Blokland wrote: Doug Ewell schreef: they also should not use Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols to create bold, italic, or double-struck effects in plain text. Why not? Because they are not regular alphanumeric characters, they are Math Symbols and they have different properties. They do not have the BEHAVIOR that is expected of normal letters. Rick
Re: Exciting new software release!
Stefan Persson scripsit: > Well, let's say that I make a plain text document and include a > mathematical formula or funtion such as "cos x", it would still be legal > to use an italic "x" from the mathematical block, wouldn't it? This is > what those characters are intended for, right? Indeed it is. -- My confusion is rapidly waxing John Cowan For XML Schema's too taxing:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd use DTDshttp://www.reutershealth.com If they had local trees -- http://www.ccil.org/~cowan I think I best switch to RELAX NG.
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote: Just as users should not fling Plane 14 language tags around in plain text, they also should not use Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols to create bold, italic, or double-struck effects in plain text. In case this is not clear, the user interface and operability of MathText is very real, but its intended use is a COMPLETE JOKE. Ha ha! April Fool! Please download MathText and get a good laugh -- or use it to test your font, as one person told me he would -- but please, please don't misuse Unicode. Well, let's say that I make a plain text document and include a mathematical formula or funtion such as "cos x", it would still be legal to use an italic "x" from the mathematical block, wouldn't it? This is what those characters are intended for, right? Stefan
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell scripsit: > ISO 3166-2 country > subdivision codes were included too, so codes like en-us-ny (for New > York English) could be constructed. In fact "en-us-ny" is syntactically well-formed, but cannot be used unless registered with IANA, as it does not belong to the set of preregistered codes. > So, in an attempt to > restore some of my lost Unicode "street cred" I removed LTag from my > site. I still keep the program around, but only as a reference to ISO > 639 and 3166 codes. I would like to see the return of the program, even if thickly coated with deprecation warnings. Failing that, could you mail it to me? Warning: This whole posting is otiose, if not downright odious. -- Her he asked if O'Hare Doctor tidings sent from far John Cowan coast and she with grameful sigh him answered that www.ccil.org/~cowan O'Hare Doctor in heaven was. Sad was the man that word www.reutershealth.com to hear that him so heavied in bowels ruthful. All [EMAIL PROTECTED] she there told him, ruing death for friend so young, algate sore unwilling God's rightwiseness to withsay. _Ulysses_, "Oxen"
Re: Exciting new software release!
William Overington wrote: > Have you considered the possibility of a similar program to encode a > string of ASCII characters as plane 14 tags please, with an option > checkbox to include the U+E0001 character at the start and an option > checkbox to include a U+E007F character? That would be a very useful > program which could be used in conjunction with SC UniPad to marshall > plain text which uses language tags. Heh heh heh. You have just described a program I wrote last year called LTag, which was designed precisely to provide quick and easy entry of Plane 14 language tags and which I used to offer for free on my Web site. Actually it was even cooler than you described; it included a complete and up-to-date list of ISO 639 and ISO 3166 codes, so the user could simply select the desired language and (optionally) country *by name* from a drop-down list OR type the codes manually. ISO 3166-2 country subdivision codes were included too, so codes like en-us-ny (for New York English) could be constructed. The country subdivision list was automatically updated when the country was changed. There was a check box to create a cancel tag, as you mentioned. Everything was validated according to RFC 3066, so an invalid code like "a" or "en-a" could not be created. Upon clicking the OK button, the completed language tag was copied to the clipboard, where another program such as -- you guessed it -- SC UniPad could paste it in. In fact, I originally wrote LTag as a prototype for possible addition to UniPad. Luckily, the UniPad development team saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did regarding Plane 14 tags. What happened to LTag? Well, as everybody knows, the Unicode Technical Committee strongly discourages the usage of these tags, to the point were they were almost deprecated earlier this year. They are permitted only in "special protocols," and are certainly frowned upon for use in arbitrary plain text, which is what LTag was for. So, in an attempt to restore some of my lost Unicode "street cred" I removed LTag from my site. I still keep the program around, but only as a reference to ISO 639 and 3166 codes. Just as users should not fling Plane 14 language tags around in plain text, they also should not use Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols to create bold, italic, or double-struck effects in plain text. In case this is not clear, the user interface and operability of MathText is very real, but its intended use is a COMPLETE JOKE. Ha ha! April Fool! Please download MathText and get a good laugh -- or use it to test your font, as one person told me he would -- but please, please don't misuse Unicode. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Exciting new software release!
At 4:11 PM +0100 4/3/03, William Overington wrote: U+10F703 PEA U+10F740 PEAS IN A POD Surely one would use the GCJ with the first, in order to form the last of these. Oh, sorry. Wrong date. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: Exciting new software release!
In the interests of some fun research in the hope that the fun will lead to learning in some serendipitous manner I am starting off some Private Use Area codes for vegetables. U+10F700 POTATO U+10F701 CARROT U+10F702 PARSNIP U+10F703 PEA U+10F740 PEAS IN A POD U+10F780 LEAF OF MINT U+10F781 LEAF OF SAGE These should be enough to get started in experimenting with the way that Private Use Area characters from plane 16 can be applied and finding out what the problems are in relation to any particular platforms, file formats and font technologies. William Overington 3 April 2003
Re: Exciting new software release!
From: "William Overington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It certainly is exciting! Whoosh! MichKa
Re: Exciting new software release!
It certainly is exciting! I learn a lot from your fun Doug. I remember when we had The Respectfully Experiment and I asked you how you managed to get the U+E707 character into your message and you mentioned the SC UniPad program from the http://www.unipad.org webspace. That program is very useful for various purposes, I have used it in relation to preparing text with colour codes for research about broadcasting and indeed I have been using it to analyze the output from using your MathText program. Some information about the colour code experiments, and a link to a font with which one can experiment, are in the following web page. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/font7001.htm I used a file, produced using Notepad, named mathin.txt with the following text. This is a test. I processed this file through MathText using the Fraktur style using mathout.txt as the output file. I then used File | Open in SC UniPad to open the file mathout.txt as a UTF-8 file. There was the display in Fraktur letters. Wow! So, I then did an Edit | Select All on the Fraktur text, followed by an Edit | Convert | Unicode to UCN. This gave a stream of ordinary text in \u and \U format, each \u sequence having four hexadecimal characters after the \u and each \U sequence having eight hexadecimal characters after the \U. Wow again! I did not realize that SC UniPad would do such a conversion! These tests were carried out on a PC running Windows 98. I am now wondering whether I can convert the text into surrogate pairs so that I can both read the \u sequences for the surrogate pairs in SC UniPad and so that I can copy the surrogate characters themselves onto the clipboard for pasting into the text box of a Java applet. Have you considered the possibility of a similar program to encode a string of ASCII characters as plane 14 tags please, with an option checkbox to include the U+E0001 character at the start and an option checkbox to include a U+E007F character? That would be a very useful program which could be used in conjunction with SC UniPad to marshall plain text which uses language tags. Such a program would be a very useful tool to have available for access level content production for use for producing content for free to the end user distance education for broadcasting around the world upon the DVB-MHP platform for interactive television. Recently I was thinking about the possibility of defining a few Private Use Area characters in one or both of planes 15 and 16. This being so as to try to gain experience of applying those Private Use Areas "up in the mountains" for use if and when such use becomes desirable. I am thinking of the long term possibility of a music font being defined there as one possible application. However, for the moment, something more general, such as a few symbols for vegetables, just to gain experience of what is involved. For example, how would one produce a display (not necessarily a web page display) of the text of the following song together with a few graphics of vegetables if the whole document were encoded as plain text with the illustrations of the vegetables encoded as Private Use Area characters from plane 15 or plane 16? http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/song1015.htm As a direct consequence of using SC UniPad with characters from beyond plane 0 as a result of your posting I have found that the CTRL Q facility of SC UniPad may be used to enter five and six character hexadecimal sequences which are within the Unicode code space and that such characters may then be converted to the \U and eight hexadecimal characters format. Looking at the U1D400.pdf document for which you provided a link in your document about the program and considering the MathText dialogue box, I am wondering whether one can set out on with an ASCII file produced with Notepad and use MathText to reach the various mathematical Greek characters shown in the U1D400.pdf document. Is that possible at present? I tried with an Alt 130 and an Alt 225 in the .txt file following A and B and before C and D and requested Bold of MathText just to see what happened, but only the A and B came out. Thank you for posting details of an interesting program which is a catalyst for interest in applying the higher planes of Unicode. William Overington 3 April 2003
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote: I see a few people have actually downloaded MathText and tried it out. I thought it would make a better joke to actually implement the thing, complete with UI mini-frills (icons to indicate scripts supported by the chosen style, selectable Unicode 3.x/4.x conversion to SCRIPT SMALL L, etc.) than simply to describe it on a Web page. This was in the same spirit as Michael, Roozbeh, and John's full-blown COMBINING HEART proposal, which was far funnier than if somebody had just mentioned the idea without developing it. And now of course your joke is perhaps the most robust IME for these characters. -- Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/
Re: Exciting new software release!
Stefan Persson wrote: > This program looks good; however, it would be nice if it could convert > e.g. "ä" into "a"+combining diæresis instead of just keeping it in the > normal style. "ä" needs to be supported by mathematical fonts in any > case, as it is often used to indicate d²a/dt² where t represents the > time. I think support for full decomposition might be a bit overkill for a program that was intended, at least originally, as a complete joke. Another user suggested an option to prepend a U+FEFF signature to the output stream, since Notepad et al. can't recognize a UTF-8 file without one. That seems possible. I see a few people have actually downloaded MathText and tried it out. I thought it would make a better joke to actually implement the thing, complete with UI mini-frills (icons to indicate scripts supported by the chosen style, selectable Unicode 3.x/4.x conversion to SCRIPT SMALL L, etc.) than simply to describe it on a Web page. This was in the same spirit as Michael, Roozbeh, and John's full-blown COMBINING HEART proposal, which was far funnier than if somebody had just mentioned the idea without developing it. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
Re: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote: Finally! The freedom to express yourself with bold, italic, Fraktur and more... all in plain text! Give Notepad the workout it was meant to have! Give your fancy page layout software the afternoon off! Give standardizers a migraine! This program looks good; however, it would be nice if it could convert e.g. "ä" into "a"+combining diæresis instead of just keeping it in the normal style. "ä" needs to be supported by mathematical fonts in any case, as it is often used to indicate d²a/dt² where t represents the time. Stefan
RE: Exciting new software release!
Doug Ewell wrote: > Drop everything and check out a kewl new Windows program available at: > > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/mathtext.html ℜí µí´¬í µí´±í µí´£í µí´©! _ Marco
