Re: LC Create Cloud advanced developer questions

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks for this. We had a quick chat internally and actually we're happy for 
Create questions to be posted either here or on the forum. However please post 
bug reports only on the forums as that is where the developers hang out.

1. At present you can "almost" do this by sharing log in details. Doing this 
better with multiple log-ins per account has been very much part of the road 
map from the start. We're really excited about this aspect of things actually, 
we can see a whole class of apps where people choose to distribute them inside 
the IDE instead of deploying. As we start to implement this properly we may 
begin by just being as granular as locking one layout at a time. As things 
evolve we're looking at developing this to the point where you can do better 
real time sharing, versioning, code reviews etc.

2. We don't yet have a plugins system in Cloud, however it will be coming soon. 
There is a real opportunity to make it super easy to share and import 
components. A marketplace is one way to do this. Allowing a searchable 
repository of shared script steps and templates (within those IDE features) is 
another. We're also considering things like whether or not we want to allow 
attribution (small company logo and a link) if you share a script step. So if 
you're a consulting service you would get your website in front of people while 
simultaneously looking useful & knowledgeable to prospects, right from within 
the IDE.

3. This is essentially similar to the multi-user question. If you grant access 
to a support account to come in we would be able to do that, obviously if you 
don't do so then we couldn't.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 16/08/2024, 10:19, "use-livecode on behalf of Andreas Bergendal via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


I have some questions to LC HQ on aspects of LC Create Cloud that I believe 
have not yet been discussed at all (unless I’ve missed something).


1) If several developers want to cooperate, is it then possible for multiple 
users to log in to the same project in LC Create Cloud? And if not possible now 
from the start, is it something that’s on the road map? 


2) Even if I’m a lone developer, I may want to make use of the work of others, 
like we've done so extensively in LC Classic. How can plugin stacks and helper 
tools made by others be implemented or accessed in my LC Create Cloud project? 
If I can’t have more than one stack open at the same time, it seems difficult 
to use such things.


Related to that, can I have my own "script repository” where I store 
script-only stacks or something, which all my projects can make calls to? Could 
I even share that repository so other developers can make calls to it? 


Wouldn’t it be very interesting if many general utility scripts could be made 
available in a similar way to how e.g. Python works, where you put ”import 
[library]” at the top of a script, and all the modules/handlers can then be 
accessed by the script?


All this can of course be done already in the sense that you can fetch any LC 
stack that’s been made available on a server and ”start using” it. But I think 
LC Create Cloud has the potential to offer such a feature in a more secure an 
accessible way - to everyone! Is this something you have considered?


3) Regardless of whether "multiple users per account" functionality will be 
there or not - will LC support staff be able to more easily provide support in 
LC Create Cloud by accessing projects (at the user’s request) and trouble-shoot 
or obtain bug documentation? I imagine it should facilitate things in that 
respect.


/Andreas
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Re: Live LiveCode Create demo

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Yes this is a great question, thanks for posting it.

We're looking to simplify the metaphors we use a little. The card/stack thing 
just doesn't seem to make as much sense as it did.

One of the main uses was to create a background group to have different records 
on each screen. That’s not really relevant in the new model where data is 
stored in the cloud data store and bound to objects.

Another major use was to place navigation controls on a screen and use a 
background group to do that. While in the current DP you do place those 
controls, we are working to create global navigation feature at project level 
which simply applies such a navigation bar without the need to drag them out 
onto each layout.

You then have "cards" as a concept meaning something entirely different in 
Material design, which is the design framework we've applied to Create.

All in all it just seems simpler to talk about a screen as a layout. Create 
multiple layouts and navigate between them. New users do appear to universally 
understand what a layout is (without the explanation that card/stack required).

All of that said, the underlying card/stack system is still there and a layout 
is really just a stack under the hood. So you can go on doing things the old 
way if you want to it will all work.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 15/08/2024, 13:03, "use-livecode on behalf of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:



Just speaking for myself.


I use substacks for different windows (modal or nonmodal) in my 
application. A substack rarely has more than one card, which has the 
controls for that window laid out the way I want them. Also, substacks 
can just be script libraries or other sorts of libraries (icons, images, 
etc.)


So I already use substack as different layouts in native apps. If moving 
to the web, they effectively become different "pages" (or screens or 
layouts of controls)


I think I have 1 app where I still use multiple cards to store data, one 
record per card. If I have a chance to redo this, the data will be 
stored in a property or variable and the stack will have a single "card" 
or layout where the current record of data is displayed as the user 
navigates through it.


For the most part, I already think of a substack as synonymous with a 
window/screen/page layout of controls for an app.




On 8/15/2024 7:09 AM, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote:
> Just caught up on this and really enjoyed it. Obviously the team has been 
> working hard, and created something really special.
>
> My question is conceptual, not a technical/features based one, so I am 
> raising it here because I would be really interested in folks views.
>
> Kevin states towards the end of the video that substacks are still there and 
> still work, but LC folks are moving away from that metaphor in favour of 
> ‘layouts’. Now I had watched the whole video with my mental model being 
> ‘layouts’ correspond to a (very smart) group on a card. In light of what 
> Kevin said that must be wrong, but I can’t quite see how the Create metaphor 
> maps onto the ol’ Xtalk hierarchy of things.
>
> Cheers
>
> David G
>
>
>
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Open Letter to Community

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi folks,

 

Some of you will have seen this as it went out by email yesterday. However I 
know for whatever reason not all of you get our emails so I’m going to post 
this here for those that haven’t seen it. I think it’s important to set the 
record straight.

 

https://livecode.com/an-open-letter-to-the-community/

 

I don’t mind a little bit of feedback on this if you want to share it but after 
that I think we need to get back to discussing how to use the product on this 
list and move licensing discussions to direct contact.

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

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Re: FAQ Clarification: Which end of 2027?

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I don't have any more information on the date in 2027 yet. It’s a long way off. 
Let's see how many of you are actually still using it at that point and truly 
haven't moved and how well we've done from Create - i.e. what we can afford.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 06/08/2024, 00:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


The current FAQ says:


- 'When are you ending support for LiveCode Classic? ... we will
maintain compatibility with supported operating systems until 2027.'


That wording is ambiguous. As Ben said:


> is that Jan 1 2027, or Dec 31 2027?


That is significant - A difference of an entire year!
Can we get a clarification on that?


(This is a general, widely relevant fact in a public FAQ;
it is not only a personal and private account-specific issue.
I may indeed have account-specific or personal case follow-ups,
but it helps, and is standard, to have clear general facts first!)


All other references I see use similar wording:


- 'we haven't changed the licensing for the existing platform which you
can continue to use on the same terms up until its end of life in 2027.'


- 'If you have a current LiveCode license,
LiveCode Classic will continue until 2027'


(This is not a Classic vs Create topic. I enjoyed everyone's views.)


I hope all had a great weekend! :)


Best wishes,


Curry Kenworthy


Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
"PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
https://livecodeconsulting.com/ 


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Re: Livecode Create hosting

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building 
desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi 
now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 
either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a 
Universal license.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Kevin,


please excuse, if this already was asked and answered.
I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have 
missed something.
Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of 
that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud?


Regards,
Matthias








> Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. 
> That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can 
> embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). 
> For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud.
> 
> Kind regards, 
> 
> Kevin 
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> 
> <mailto:ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com>> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/> 
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via 
> use-livecode"  <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of 
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, 
> but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? 
> 
> 
> Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or 
> is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or 
> some other sort of thing?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> David G
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Glasgow
> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist
> Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University
> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit
> Carlton Glasgow Partnership
> Director, Child & Family Training, York
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/> 
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>;> 
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>;> 
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/&gt;>;>
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Re: Livecode Create hosting

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That 
means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it 
within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For 
desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but 
exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? 


Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is 
it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some 
other sort of thing?


Cheers


David G












David Glasgow
Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist
Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University
Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit
Carlton Glasgow Partnership
Director, Child & Family Training, York




LinkedIn  
;>
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Re: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Riko,

This is an excellent question.

While Create does include drag-drop no-code tools, it also includes the Script 
Editor. So you have a choice. Our goal is that you use the point and click 
actions for those things it does well and write scripts where required. There 
are two things that are really important here. Firstly, the Actions Editor (our 
name for our drag-drop tool) actually writes scripts using the LiveCode Script 
language you already know and love. So you can always go into the script editor 
afterwards and edit them. Secondly, you can insert scripts as a step within the 
actions flow. So we make it really easy to go back and forward.

Our vision is to provide a no-code tool with all the productivity benefits and 
ease-of-learning that this brings for routine tasks. Yet without any of the 
limits inherent to most drag-drop coding systems.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 30/07/2024, 06:41, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hello Kevin,


Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and
have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe
no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with
code.
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Re: unsubscribing

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

While I appreciate the feedback, we have spent millions of dollars in platform 
development and we are not going to sell the new platform with a business model 
that is not sustainable. That would not be in the interests of any of our 
customers, the community or the longevity of the platform as a whole. No amount 
of feedback from a small but vocal minority is going to change this situation. 
The majority of customers who have contacted us directly - and an order of 
magnitude more have done so than have posted publicly, including customers of 
all shapes and sizes, have been positive about the changes and willing to work 
with us. Our platform has been around in one form or another for an 
exceptionally long time. The industry is changing and we need to reinvent 
ourselves along with everyone else. We have done so in the past in different 
ways and with your support we can do so now. If you are one of those customers 
than I would like to thank you for your understanding, it is greatly 
appreciated.

If you are an existing LiveCode customer with an active license who has been 
adversely affected by the new licensing changes, then please contact 
supp...@livecode.com where we will be very happy to assist you. It is possible 
there may be additional options available for you that are not available here 
in this public forum.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

PS. I'm not entirely sure I understand (yet) why this is such a deal breaker 
for you. At 200-300 euros a month adding a $150 (annual) seat is an additional 
11.55 eur monthly cost. Nor is it clear you have applied the correct new 
licensing model for your situation. But anyway let's take this off list and we 
can go through it properly and see how we can help.

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 29/07/2024, 20:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and 
authored several great books about it, you understand the software and 
its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very 
frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these 
subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us.


Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create 
small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people 
here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For 
many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, 
provides a small financial boost.


In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from 
small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never 
been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and 
acquaintances.


No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new 
conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage 
remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the 
small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about 
micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How 
can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat?


With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever.


I understand why Douglas is so mad.


Best,
Hery


Best,
Hery


On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
> what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to
> every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a
> useless conversation.
>
> On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
>
>> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for
>> many,
>> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is
>> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look
>> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to
>> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course.
>> Have a good one!
>>
>> Douglas Ruisaard
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Individual licensing questions

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry 
vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates 
(sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of 
business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor 
point.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers 
to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a 
product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that 
time. 


That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making 
additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they 
are ready when I buy it.


Really don't understand that statement.


----------------


From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM
To: How to use LiveCode mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
Cc: Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@livecode.com>>
Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions


From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an 
update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the 
new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, 
yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily 
throughout that intervening period.


However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get 
in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic 
support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us 
directly.


Kind regards,


Kevin


Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> 
<mailto:ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com>> ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/> <http://www.livecode.com/> 
<http://www.livecode.com/>;>


LiveCode: Build Amazing Things


On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>>> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>> 
wrote:


I hope this is generic enough.


I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago


or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books


or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2


or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an


incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few


requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I


know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services.


My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75.


I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars


more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because


it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are


now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not


feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements.


I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is


required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5%


rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50.


--


Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com> <mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com>> <mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com> <mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com>>>


HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 
<http://www.hyperactivesw.com> <http://www.hyperactivesw.com> 
<http://www.hyperactivesw.com>;> 

Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

The charge is not per app, it is per user. You can supply as many apps as you 
like to any licensed user. I'm sorry if you think LiveCode isn't suitable for 
your needs. As an existing customer I invite you to contact support directly.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 


In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small 
applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, 
a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption 
tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each 
user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee.





















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Re: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

We have discussed internally whether to produce an option without the Cloud 
backend for Create. We're not going to do it. It would create additional 
engineering costs, confusion about the offering for new users and a lot of the 
value in Create is elsewhere in the redevelopments we've done not just in the 
Cloud. People already have lots of questions just figuring out the difference 
between Internal Apps and Apps for Sale, another option isn't going to be a 
positive thing. You don't have to use our cloud, but we aren't going to be 
removing it by default.

For those of you that have large internal user packs and are finding this 
challenging, please contact support directly. We may have other options 
available for existing customers in certain cases.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

On 28/07/2024, 23:21, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via 
use-livecode

Skip:


> Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever!


Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines.


Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ:


- 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.'


- Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.'
- (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.)


- But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset...
- 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.'
- Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning!
- Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey.


- LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro...
- Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists.
- (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!)


Skip:


> I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!)


Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE:
Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old.


They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license.


So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks!
I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users.


Pay full price for developer seats...
But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user!


I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support?
(Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.)
So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :)


(I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID -
Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some,
so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.)


Best wishes,


Curry Kenworthy


Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
"PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
https://livecodeconsulting.com/  
 ;> 
 ;> 
;> 
;>







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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Precisely. There are free products in the marketplace and products far more 
expensive than LiveCode too. Appian costs $75 per user with a minimum of 100 
users so $7500 per month. Either the benefits that LiveCode bring are worth the 
price to you or they aren't.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 


On 26/07/2024, 17:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via 
use-livecode" 

Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode 
has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing 
to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. 
Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and 
the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase 
in development costs is a major concern.


There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop 
and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for 
desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are 
much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and 
Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide 
the source code.


Best regards,
Heriberto











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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

That’s not what Create is. It’s a cloud based environment where we host your 
apps, run scripts and provide an integrated data backend.

There may be other options to move forward available for existing users who 
contact us directly.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

On 26/07/2024, 15:53, "use-livecode on behalf of Mike Kerner via use-livecode" 


after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get
a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because
that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server,
it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined
binaries.









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Re: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. 
https://future.livecode.com 

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com  ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/  
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 


On 28/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Skip Kimpel via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>> 
wrote:


Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused 
than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and 
questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I 
don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / 
speculation. If so, I apologize.

Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change 
failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there.

For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works 
out in the short term (and long term!)

Best regards,

SKIP KIMPEL




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Re: Individual licensing questions

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks Sean. It’s a big change and we are doing our best to explain it as 
clearly as we can.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com  ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/  
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 27/07/2024, 09:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>> 
wrote:

That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. 
Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is 
quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly 
have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough 
to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D

We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, 
actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat 
is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if 
that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would 
disappear. 

Best

Sean Cole





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Re: The story so far

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Sent off list.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 


Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com  ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/  
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 26/07/2024, 18:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>> 
wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:
> After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license
> policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received.


I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy?
--
Richard Gaskin
FourthWorld.com




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;>









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Re: Individual licensing questions

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an 
update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the 
new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, 
yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily 
throughout that intervening period.

However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get 
in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic 
support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us 
directly.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 


Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/> 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 
On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
<mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> 
wrote:

I hope this is generic enough.

I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago 
or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books 
or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 
or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an 
incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few 
requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I 
know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. 
My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75.

I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars 
more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because 
it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are 
now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not 
feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements.

I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is 
required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% 
rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com> <mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
<mailto:jac...@hyperactivesw.com>>
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 
<http://www.hyperactivesw.com> <http://www.hyperactivesw.com> 
<http://www.hyperactivesw.com>;>
On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> 
wrote:





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Re: I seem to have missed something

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"?

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


> On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will 
> have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not 
> permitted to disable.


Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding 
in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how 
they should or shouldn't use it.


The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is 
substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies 
go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a 
bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of 
Flash, for SWF products.)


k
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Re: I seem to have missed something

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for posting this.

If you ask 10 LiveCode customers what is important to them, you'll get 10 
different answers. As an obvious example, I expect that if you were to ask 
others on this list about mobile, many people would disagree that mobile is 
less important. I appreciate you don't believe you need some of the new 
features we are delivering now. That might be actually true. Or it might be 
that you just haven't had a chance to try them yet. Either way that's ok. Many, 
many customers do see what we are delivering in Create as the top priority.

I also appreciate there are features with reasonably broad appeal that we would 
like to be delivering sooner. That's an important part of what is driving the 
change in business model. We are delivering a lot of value, but not capturing 
it, so moving too slowly for some. We subsidize LiveCode development from our 
profitable services arm and there are limits to how much we can do that. We 
simply have to change all that. I would very much like to deliver a 
consistently better service without running promotions or crowd funding or 
anything else, just using licensing revenue.

There is another context to think about our Create project from too. One of the 
questions we talk about often internally is - does our platform have what it 
takes to attract new users at a healthy and sustainable rate? This is something 
that should be important to you and all our community. The fact is that it 
takes something very different to attract a new customer today compared to days 
gone by. We don't have the luxury of standing still. Along with the desire to 
create a better product for the majority of you who do want the new 
capabilities, this question strongly contributes to the direction we are taking 
with Create. Creating and maintaining a strong ecosystem around the platform is 
vital to us all.

A dear friend and mentor of mine has a favourite saying "if you don't like 
change, you'll like irrelevance even less". So I appreciate the input, and I 
hope you can understand that it doesn't perhaps create a viable strategy for 
the platform as a whole.

In terms of your own licensing question - either these are commercial apps 
being created for your company as an employee or you're creating them in your 
own time and own the IP. You may be able apply Application Payments to the 
latter case. If you want specific input into your exact circumstance, I'm going 
to ask you to contact support where we will be happy to help.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 25/07/2024, 17:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:

It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for 
Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode 
Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained 
their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any 
financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one 
fails, all fail.

I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took 
advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would 
otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing.

Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, 
overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the 
ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do.

Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche 
technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler 
project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other 
things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior 
builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to 
produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a 
no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!!

All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. 
That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in 
those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be 
able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching 
my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in 
the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so!

So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to 
you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like 
I have been given 2 years to live.

Bob S




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Individual licensing questions

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here as 
needed, for example edge cases or things that aren’t clear in the model, as it 
helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual questions about 
the costs for you under the new model, please email them to support and we can 
give you an accurate quote and talk you through your options. Otherwise we are 
going to be going over the same territory here on the list for some time to 
come! We’ll build out the information pages some more worked examples next week 
too. Thanks.

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

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Re: I seem to have missed something

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Colin,

I get that the new model is a disappointment and may not work for you. And I'm 
sorry about that. We are still considering the question you raised about using 
the platform alongside Power Apps and whether or not there should be any 
changes to the model at scale for those not using our data back end.

Making changes is hard. We have to make changes in order to have a solid 
future, there is no other option for us.

While I appreciate your feedback and I appreciate you have reasons to be 
disappointed, as this is a public post I need to correct the record. The price 
you just posted for that number of users is wildly inaccurate (we did quote you 
the correct price when I met with you).

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com  
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




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The story so far

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Folks,

This has been a busy week and there has been a lot of discussion on here. Thank 
you to all of you who have contributed to the debate here on this list. I 
thought I'd post a quick summary of where our thinking is at so far.

I obviously spoke to several dozen of you personally prior to making this 
change. We've now had the chance to speak to hundreds of you which has helped 
us to gain an even better understanding of our new model and the way forward. 
This is a big change and no matter how many people you speak to in advance, we 
expected to learn more after we went live. We are grateful for all the feedback 
we have had.

The new entry price of $440 or $660, which is on average a reduction as it 
includes a lot more has been well received across most customer groups. It 
continues to allow hobbyists access to the platform too.

The Application Payments model, for those of you creating apps to sell (or as 
freeware) has been well received. We've had very, very few objections to it and 
so I think we're pretty confident at this point that it's about as good as it 
can be. I'm proud of the way we've innovated here to allow small independent 
vendors to continue to use the platform in a way that most other low/no-code 
SaaS platforms haven't.

We've had a little feedback on making the platform free for public high 
schools, which has been well received.

After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license policy past 
2027 and that now seems to have been well received.

We still have a couple of outstanding questions about how our model applies to 
Server for a couple of use cases we didn't come across in our initial 
consultation and we'll work through those soon.

The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own 
organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is 
perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting 
and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have 
your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't 
use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've 
spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and 
it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my 
question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want 
to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group.

I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, 
we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each 
standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful 
business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this 
week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing 
costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business 
want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume 
discount for higher seat numbers.

This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from 
the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice 
early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially 
creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also 
has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the 
other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as 
possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very 
important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the 
Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. 
We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days.

The other lesson from this week is that we need more text based content for 
those of you that don't want to consume information by video. We'll do some 
more worked examples on the mini-site next week in that form to help with that.

Other than that, I would say this. If you only read this list you might be 
forgiven for thinking that the new pricing model hasn't been well received. 
While that’s certainly true in a number of cases (I'm sorry if that’s you!), 
the vast majority of responses (out of the many hundreds we have had now) are 
getting on board and generally the sentiment has been good. The initial 
feedback on the new Create builds from those of you that do now have access to 
it has also been good. I would ask if you've emailed in to please bear with us, 
we will get back to you as soon as we can.

So overall we've taken an important step forward this week that will enable us 
to better serve our customers into the future and broadly it has been a success 
so far. We still have some questions to work on and we will continue to look at 
those.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Bui

Re: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way?

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - you don't have to 
actually use it! You can still build your app, connect to your own database 
(e.g. MySQL) hosted on your own server, build a standalone or a web app and 
distribute it yourself.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 16:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message:


"Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create.


Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create.


Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create.


Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create.


DIY type or On a budget? Tough call."


All unnecessary! A simple oversight:


We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not.


And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins!


Best wishes,


Curry Kenworthy


Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
"PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
https://livecodeconsulting.com/ 


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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

No. They are not commercial users - your company does not employ them, nor are 
they customers.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Kevin,
Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to 
make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them?


Bill


William A. Prothero, PhD
Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science
University of California, Santa Barbara


> On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. 
> They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 
> annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within 
> your company.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via 
> use-livecode"  <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of 
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is 
> that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me 
> the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, 
> all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not 
> pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating 
> forms easier for the IT technicians in the field.
> 
> 
> Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone 
> apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make 
> any money from the app??
> 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> wrote:
>> 
>> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”.
>> 
>> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was 
>> info about lifetime license holders in a video.
>> 
>> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re 
>> incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and 
>> distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat 
>> ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than 
>> membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying 
>> clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of 
>> the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first 
>> license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will 
>> be calculated.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. 
They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 
annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your 
company.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:



If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is 
that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me 
the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all 
are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me 
to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier 
for the IT technicians in the field. 


Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone 
apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any 
money from the app?? 


Bob S




> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”.
> 
> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was 
> info about lifetime license holders in a video.
> 
> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect 
> about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute 
> our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per 
> year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at 
> my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers 
> or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license 
> will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in 
> December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 


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Re: LiveCode and AI

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Its still very much part of the picture. There is an AI assistant in the Script 
Editor already in DP 1. There will be additional AI capabilities for defining 
layouts and choosing actions as we progress. Its possible these may be after 
1.0 depending on how progress continues on them.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 12:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Rauterkus via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi,


The words "AI" were used once in the new future page.


Radical omission?
Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create.


Wondering.




Mark Rauterkus


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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking.

You can count machines instead of users if you prefer - it's one or the other 
(not some mixture of both).

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 08:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi Jeff,


When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you 
describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either 
defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply 
any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never 
darken their door again. 


I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove 
that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even 
being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military 
security services.


Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example 
I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a 
database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to 
track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army 
and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. 


The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. 
The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers 
situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the 
medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when 
they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. 
Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number 
of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive 
and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the 
cloud would have be allowed. 


While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the 
fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, 
friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the 
updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been 
charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a 
database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. 
Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues?


Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini 
tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues.


best wishes


Simon


> On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating 
> educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and 
> a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks 
> pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck.
> 
> The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and 
> presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time 
> in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a 
> more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if 
> any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much 
> more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content 
> presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks 
> as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each 
> interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, 
> probably only hassles keeping it out of things.
> 
> Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty 
> payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors 
> and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your 
> end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really 
> add anything much to my productivity.
> 
> I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as 
> well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of 
> presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a 
> volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of 
> visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, 
> and the production team to help manage content development and organization 
> on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the 
> presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes 
> by a number of

Re: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

No.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 05:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:




Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons?


Hopefully no -


Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me.
If Addons even count as 'Apps'.


Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode 
consultant who does LC work and makes Addons.


Best wishes,


Curry Kenworthy


Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
"PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
https://livecodeconsulting.com/ 


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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Yes, the price for a hobbyist using multiple platforms is lower now.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 03:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”.


I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info 
about lifetime license holders in a video.


btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect 
about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute 
our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per 
year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at 
my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers 
or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license 
will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 
2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated.


Sent from my iPhone


> On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses 
> and how it will work for them.
> Can someone provide a link to this video?
> I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I 
> really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.)
> 
> Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this 
> news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis.
> 
> Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that 
> derives no income from the apps I create.
> 
> While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able 
> to tag along past 2027. So sad.
> 
> James
> 
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

We're going to tweak this policy a bit after feedback. Stay tuned for an email.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 25/07/2024, 01:52, "use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and 
how it will work for them.
Can someone provide a link to this video?
I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I 
really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.)


Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news 
is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis.


Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that 
derives no income from the apps I create.


While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able 
to tag along past 2027. So sad.


James


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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I don't think this is going to be too difficult. Might just be easier to 
license the machines this is on rather than the number of people. If that is 
even necessary, as volunteers do not count. As I've said in previous replies, 
phone home is not a requirement. If you drop us a line in support we can work 
out an exact quote for you.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 21:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Jeff Reynolds via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating 
educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a 
ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty 
untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck.


The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and 
presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in 
live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more 
rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any 
increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more 
robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content 
presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as 
that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface 
is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only 
hassles keeping it out of things.


Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty 
payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors 
and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your 
end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add 
anything much to my productivity.


I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as 
well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of 
presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer 
a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also 
usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production 
team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well 
as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. 
These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, 
sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but 
are non profits.


Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new 
system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different 
interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The 
drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command 
protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with 
turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd 
programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent 
documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in 
the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in 
their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could 
figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do 
work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily 
to make these workarounds. 


Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also 
a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing 
stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable 
and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get 
calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed 
the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and 
permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary 
as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, 
bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault.


So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new 
licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat 
subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of 
my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and 
paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale 
and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract 
costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)?


Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into 

Re: Create Question...

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Kevin,


If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word?
I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is
constructive, and not hold back.


Thank you in advance.


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


> They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as
> mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if
> there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are
> able to get online.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
>
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via
> use-livecode"  <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>  use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
> wrote:
>
>
> Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what
> happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a
> firewall other security method)?
>
>
> -Dan
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Re: I seem to have missed something

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Access to Classic and older builds continues to be included in the Create 
license. If you move then either we or you can cancel your existing 
subscription. Existing plugins will continue to run in Classic mode. Some of 
them may already run in Create, it depends on how tightly they are tied into 
the IDE.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 


Hello,


A few questions :
If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current 
subscription? Is it automatically cancelled?


According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new 
interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or 
is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup 
and AI?


Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new 
software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)?


Thanks.


Ludovic
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Re: Create Question...

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as mentioned 
in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if there is no 
connection, they will update the tracking next time they are able to get online.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what 
happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a 
firewall other security method)?


-Dan
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Please drop a line to support so we can talk through your specific/individual 
question in more detail. Thanks.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 18:47, "use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi list,


I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the
new license plans.
I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different
clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users
in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also
have 2 LC-hosting accounts.
I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice
a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than
1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for
MacOS & Windows.
I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every
year.


Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the
same way ?


Thanks,
jbv


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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I'll see if we can expand the FAQ a bit further tomorrow.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 18:23, "use-livecode on behalf of Craig Newman via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when 
the classic license expires?"


This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a 
FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are 
causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst.


Craig


> On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my
> web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the
> Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web
> hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it.
>> 
>> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what
>> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue
>> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are
>> Application Payments?".
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Kevin
>> 
>> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
>> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via
>> use-livecode" > <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
>> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance.
>> 
>> 
>> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years.
>> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet
>> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself
>> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large
>> products at a quick pace as well.
>> 
>> 
>> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential.
>> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade
>> plus, with many different products.
>> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the
>> community to build.)
>> 
>> 
>> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as
>> Kevin said in the video.
>> 
>> 
>> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million?
>> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and
>> faster updates.
>> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business.
>> 
>> 
>> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really
>> sucks.
>> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks for listening
>> 
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per
>>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very
>>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me
>>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in
>>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of
>>> antitrust case to catch up.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>

Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

No, only the revenue attributable to the app.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 18:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my
web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the
Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web
hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server.






On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it.
>
> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what
> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue
> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are
> Application Payments?".
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
>
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via
> use-livecode"  <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>  use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
> wrote:
>
>
> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance.
>
>
> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years.
> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet
> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself
> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large
> products at a quick pace as well.
>
>
> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential.
> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade
> plus, with many different products.
> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the
> community to build.)
>
>
> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as
> Kevin said in the video.
>
>
> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million?
> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and
> faster updates.
> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business.
>
>
> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really
> sucks.
> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy.
>
>
> Thanks for listening
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
> wrote:
>
>
> > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per
> > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps.
> >
> >
> >
> > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very
> > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me
> > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in
> > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of
> > antitrust case to catch up.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> 
> > <mailto:ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com>> ~
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/> 
> <http://www.livecode.com/> <http://www.livecode.com/>;>
> >
> > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Colin Kelly mailto:ckelly5...@gmail.com> 
> > <mailto:ckelly5...@gmail.com <mailto:ckelly5...@gmail.com>>>
> > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35
> > To: How to use LiveCode  > <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
> > Cc: Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@liveco

Re: I seem to have missed something

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal 
depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you 
happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Thanks for the link.
I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, 
public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage 
my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my 
own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web 
sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of 
using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I 
could accept. 


So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator 
with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist.


Best,
Bill


William A. Prothero, PhD
Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science
University of California, Santa Barbara


> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Too late.
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and 
>> will skew our stats weirdly :)
>> 
>> The minisite link you want is here:
>> 
>> https://future.livecode.com/ 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Heather
>> 
>> Heather Laine
>> Customer Services Manager
>> LiveCode Ltd
>> www.livecode.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode 
 mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> Find Out More 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> ;>
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode 
 mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
 wrote:
 
 Folks,
 I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions 
 of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the 
 "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info?
 
 Thanks,
 Bill
 
 William A. Prothero, PhD
 Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science
 University of California, Santa Barbara
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 subscription preferences:
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it.

Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what you 
suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue increases. 
You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are Application 
Payments?".

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance.


I have been with Livecode for about 11 years.
While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet
I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself
so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large
products at a quick pace as well.


So in a very real sense I've been building income potential.
Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade
plus, with many different products.
I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the
community to build.)


So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as
Kevin said in the video.


To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million?
And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and
faster updates.
That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business.


I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really
sucks.
I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy.


Thanks for listening


Tom


On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per
> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps.
>
>
>
> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very
> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me
> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in
> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of
> antitrust case to catch up.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
>
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Colin Kelly mailto:ckelly5...@gmail.com>>
> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35
> To: How to use LiveCode  <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
> Cc: Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@livecode.com>>
> Subject: Re: Livecode Future
>
>
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
>
>
> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365
> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we
> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business
> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy
> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that
> we would already be using so not an additional cost
>
> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

No, those apps will continue to work.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:



Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic 
license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license 
with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And 
right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for 
the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse 
the more users I want to add. 


I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. 


Bob S




> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic 
> license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future 
> updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people 
> who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners 
> to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this 
> time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the 
> company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per user, 
per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps.

 

The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very 
disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me as 
monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in the 
past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of antitrust case 
to catch up.

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

 

From: Colin Kelly 
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Kevin Miller 
Subject: Re: Livecode Future

 

Hi Kevin, 

 

I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 
Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we 
subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business applications 
like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy developed PowerApps 
to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that we would already be 
using so not an additional cost

MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors.

 

--  

 

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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for this. I'm going to send this on to support if that’s ok, so Heather 
can help you with your specific subscription options.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 15:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Peter Gagiano via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Hi Kevin


Hi Heather. 
I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new 
Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 


1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com?
2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean 
that for each app developed and used by a client? 
My apologies, (English is not my first language).
3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option?
4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the 
first of each month?




Best regards,
Peter


- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
To: "How to use LiveCode" mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
Cc: "Kevin Miller" mailto:ke...@livecode.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27
Subject: Re: Livecode Future


Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here 
as I accidentally replied to you off list.)






Kind regards,






Kevin






Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>


LiveCode: Build Amazing Things










From: Keith Martin mailto:thatke...@mac.com>>
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55
To: Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@livecode.com>>
Subject: Re: Livecode Future






Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look 
forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and 
positioning. :)






Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? 
I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home 
mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check 
process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I 
get the reasons).






Keith


Keith Martin
360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk <https://Mister360.co.uk>
Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com <https://ThatKeith.com>
+44 (0)7909541365










On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@livecode.com>> wrote:





Hi Keith,






Thanks for this.






We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It 
can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your 
app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other 
platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure 
we can work together to get this right.






In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for 
you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data 
use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a 
meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional 
Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps 
yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all.






Kind regards,






Kevin






Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>


LiveCode: Build Amazing Things










From: Keith Martin mailto:thatke...@mac.com>>
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55
To: How to use LiveCode mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
Cc: Kevin Miller mailto:ke...@livecode.com>>
Subject: Re: Livecode Future






I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically 
concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: 






"Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will 
have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not 
permitted to disable."






I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels 
like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves 
as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will 
be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI.






The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more 
questions than it answers!






"Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage"






What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadat

Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Right - so your company has already recognized the value of being able to 
deploy custom apps to their employees and willingly pays a monthly per-user fee 
to do so. That vendor happens to be to Microsoft rather than LiveCode.

 

Our new platform provides more value than Power Apps and has had a great deal 
of investment in it. Unfortunately I can’t really help that your company has 
bought a solution from someone else. Trying to price our platform in a 
non-commercial way because you have something else installed would make it 
unviable for us. I suspect making the same suggestion that Microsoft should 
offer their platform for less would not be entertained by Microsoft either!

 

Drop me a line off list and lets have a chat about what we can do. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

 

From: Colin Kelly 
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 13:21
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Kevin Miller 
Subject: Re: Livecode Future

 

As our employees all have a valid MS 0365 Business standard license and 
Powerapps are deployed via a tab in Microsoft Teams then there is no other cost 
for deploying PowerApps, the cost of deploying  PowerApps over LC is 
significantly less!

 

 

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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here 
as I accidentally replied to you off list.)

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

 

From: Keith Martin 
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55
To: Kevin Miller 
Subject: Re: Livecode Future

 

Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look 
forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and 
positioning. :)

 

Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? 
I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home 
mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check 
process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I 
get the reasons).

 

Keith

Keith Martin
360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk
Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com
+44 (0)7909541365

 

 

On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller  wrote:



Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for this.

 

We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It 
can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your 
app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other 
platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure 
we can work together to get this right.

 

In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for 
you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data 
use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a 
meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional 
Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps 
yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all.

 

Kind regards,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Build Amazing Things

 

 

From: Keith Martin 
Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Kevin Miller 
Subject: Re: Livecode Future

 

I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically 
concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: 

 

"Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will 
have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not 
permitted to disable."



I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels 
like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves 
as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will 
be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI.

 

The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more 
questions than it answers!

 

"Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage"



What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 
360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It 
doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. 
Does this mean I can relax?



I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make 
money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my 
software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC 
license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the 
coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps 
look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community.

 

Keith

Keith Martin
360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk
Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com

 

 

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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

The bigger difference here is in internal users who buy either Native/Cloud or 
Universal. In the apps for sale only the developers need those seats, there is 
no difference to the application payments model regardless of what platforms 
you deploy.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 13:29, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi Kevin


You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How 
does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two 
models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the 
platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure.


Sean Cole


Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of 
actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features 
invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are 
giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; 
it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund 
into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 
which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky 
chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉




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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable 
under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we 
won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their 
business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not 
suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that 
this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also 
consider it to have a value at that point.

In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets 
have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an 
issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi Kevin,


I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take 
care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would 
hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale”


The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a 
hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost.
This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in 
the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message 
“non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode 
message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence 
model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service 
VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and 
controlled.


So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product 
package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no 
standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and 
enter the world digital service VAT.


Is that the understanding ?




Regards
Camm


On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Yes, this is quite important to me as well.


Thanks,
Tim Selander


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Re: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Server will continue yes.

The majority of web deployments will be things that aren't classified as 
commercial in our model. However if you're building a web platform for paying 
customers to use or some sort of information system for your employees, then 
one of the two license types - internal users or apps for sale would apply.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 12:54, "use-livecode on behalf of Raymond Bennett via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Kevin and Co. -


Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do.


Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement.


My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me 
to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's 
work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 
conference - what is the license model for that? 


Thank you.


Ray Bennett




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Re: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Matthias,

Thanks for your questions.

Tracking users - yes we will track and collect this information. You will be 
able to see it in a user portal too. While we don’t yet offer it, you will soon 
have a choice of data centre. We are GDPR compliant. We will also offer a 
contract for a specific number of users without tracking for those of you that 
have more sensitive apps.

The cloud solution in general will comply with GDPR yes.

I have outlined in a specific video our policy on lifetime licenses, its on the 
page near the bottom for those of you that had those licenses (you will have 
received a different email to the others with a different link).

I’m glad to hear that the developer license + application payments works for 
your commercial app.

Your specific use of LiveCode Server on its own is an interesting question. I 
did speak to several dozen customers personally prior to making this change 
(including you!) and it was not a question that really came up in any major 
way. Obviously in the case of application payments it's just part of that 
model. However the use you have here seems like a bit of an edge case. Clearly 
there is value in our server platform but perhaps not as much as when you’re 
using our full tech stack with GUI delivery (or the new Cloud features) etc. 
I’m going to take this offline and ask you a number of questions about this so 
we can figure out something sensible.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 11:55, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Dear Kevin,


I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same 
or similar questions.


As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the 
number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are 
those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP?


Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? 


What exactly happens to Livecode Server?


What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, 
which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not 
maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? 
Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, 
although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to 
LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of 
your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" 
the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. 




My personal situation is the following. 


I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a 
problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although 
I do not earn much money with it. 
I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps 
Developer license.


But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A 
large number of them is still maintained. 


Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by 
about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One 
tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It 
uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files 
before they are sent out by email to customers. 


According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 
10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion.


I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, 
but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the 
need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product 
comes with...




Regards,
Matthias






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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Well in practical terms if you don't know about it it's even harder for us to 
know. These sorts of things do happen but only occasionally so I don't spend 
too much time worrying about it. Obviously a sensible conversation would need 
to be had if it was discovered, most of which we would expect to be between you 
and your customer.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and 
conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new 
licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then 
some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used 
without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or 
both of us for breach of their license conditions?


best wishes


Simon




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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be 
delivered from crowd funding.

I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity 
of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, 
even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, 
is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your 
own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to 
me?

Kind regards, 

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal 
workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some 
utilities that were built with LC. 
I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. 


Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded 
projects that never materialised or are still in dev. 


Col. 


Sent from my iPhone. 


> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications 
> for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still 
> need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've 
> misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I 
> considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated 
> "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to 
> explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would 
> cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter 
> course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site.
> 
> Hery
> 
>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I'll start.
>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer.
>> I feel very positive about this change.
>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev,
>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable.
>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable.
>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev
>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ...
>> Then I want to be in full support of this model.
>> 
>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was
>> explained. Great job on that.
>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to
>> align their business model or to get off the platform.
>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs
>> 
>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the
>> future of my company MakeShyft.
>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment.
>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this
>> at all.
>> 
>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true.
>> 
>> Tom
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> 
> 
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view
it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get
while trying to read the most recent post on the site?


On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


> Hi Heriberto,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to post.
>
> If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or
> customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell,
> its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your
> company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more
> closely.
>
> Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you
> don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes
> only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any
> app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay
> for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing
> costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created
> perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So
> you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS
> the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer
> for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they
> need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I
> have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are
> earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much
> time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here
> many times over.
>
> There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our
> platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out
> faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting
> your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base.
>
> We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days
> which will help to better illustrate this comparison.
>
> With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this
> some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now,
> or at any point before 2027.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com <mailto:ke...@livecode.com> ~ 
> http://www.livecode.com/ <http://www.livecode.com/>
> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things
>
>
>
>
> On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via
> use-livecode"  <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>  use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com 
> <mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> 
> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>
>
> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating
> applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100
> employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount
> applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about
> Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move
> away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon
> Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user
> of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest
> investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a
> web site.
>
>
> Hery
>
>
> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I'll start.
> > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer.
> > I feel very positive about this change.
> > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo
> dev,
> > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of
> reasonable.
> > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable.

Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Heriberto,

Thanks for taking the time to post.

If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or customers, 
then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, its a different 
model. With that said, if those users are employed by your company then it 
bears looking at the economics of this a little more closely.

Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you 
don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes only 
a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any app that 
takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay for itself in 
the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing costs. Then there is 
the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created perfect, most require 
regular changes as they encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing 
increase in development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs 
of each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up with 
an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the time. What's 
the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those users do so this 
could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You 
don't have to save very much time with a better app delivered sooner to save 
the licensing cost here many times over.

There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our platform: 
it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out faster. Saving 
development time is a direct development staff cost, getting your app and 
revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base.

We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days which 
will help to better illustrate this comparison.

With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this some 
more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, or at any 
point before 2027.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hi Tom,


It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating 
applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 
employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount 
applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about 
Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move 
away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon 
Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user 
of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest 
investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a 
web site.


Hery


On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I'll start.
> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer.
> I feel very positive about this change.
> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev,
> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable.
> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable.
> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev
> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ...
> Then I want to be in full support of this model.
>
> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was
> explained. Great job on that.
> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to
> align their business model or to get off the platform.
> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs
>
> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the
> future of my company MakeShyft.
> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment.
> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this
> at all.
>
> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true.
>
> Tom
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Re: Livecode Future

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate it. I'm glad you think the 
communication was done well, these things are never easy to communicate and we 
worked really hard at that. We're very optimistic that these changes will give 
us the capacity to move a lot faster which is going to be great for us all.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 23/07/2024, 23:32, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Hello All,


I'll start.
After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer.
I feel very positive about this change.
Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev,
even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable.
The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable.
If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev
cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ...
Then I want to be in full support of this model.


I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was
explained. Great job on that.
I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to
align their business model or to get off the platform.
I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs


Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the
future of my company MakeShyft.
I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment.
Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this
at all.


All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true.


Tom
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Re: activation and login broken?

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Something is wrong... We are looking into it now.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 02/02/2024, 19:56, "use-livecode on behalf of David Wood via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Same here


In my case just on Mac but also as you say trying to log into the Livecode 
website.


> On 3/02/2024, at 8:24 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> hmmm. i just tried to fire up LC on both mac and pc. i ran into an
> activation dialog, so i tried to log in, and got an error. so, i tried to
> log into the livecode website, and hit the same thing.
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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Re: We lost an Angle

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

So very sorry to hear that Ralph. My thoughts are with you.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 




On 11/01/2024, 01:54, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Many of you knew Margaret from the conferences. We lost her today. She spent
her life as a nurse in the oncology department. She gave her love and
empathy to all her patients. She was so full of life and gave it a gallant
try, but was not to be. We just celebrated our 40th anniversary in December.


You all were so kind and welcoming to her. I thank you for that.






Ralph DiMola


IT Director


Evergreen Information Services


rdim...@evergreeninfo.net 


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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Ethics are very important to me as you know. I'm a passionate believer in 
working to increase fairness as we grow and evolve as a species. We're making 
great progress at that at the moment. For example, the number of people living 
in extreme poverty globally has more than halved in the last 20 years. Over 
half of the world's population has a smartphone, giving them access to what 
would once have been a supercomputer, and an online world that just 25 years 
ago the majority could not access.

I think it takes time after something new emerges before we sort out the 
societal implications fully. Such implications are rarely well understood at 
the start. I don't think the questions these lawsuits raise have easy answers. 
It certainly does not seem clear cut to me on reading them what is even right 
or in the ultimate best interests of artists, creators or our species. I would 
need to dig into this for a lot longer to truly form an opinion.

I don't underestimate the potential for technology to continue at breath-taking 
rate and solve the problem of writing in assembler. I get the exponential 
growth of technology and the improvements of algorithms that lead to further 
growths - in fact I'm quite excited about it. I'm just not sure that this is a 
problem that really needs solved next. We already have a technology that takes 
human readable code and creates machine instructions, i.e. compliers. Until 
technology completely eliminates humans in the making of software (which may of 
course happen one day) I don't think we need to worry (too much!) about the 
exit of scripting languages. It's a useful medium for a human to understand and 
edit in until such time as we are truly defunct. If and when that happens I 
doubt there will be any sort of jobs in any industry.

We also have to be careful we don't try to cut off our nose to spite our face. 
Leaving a language like ours behind in the dust rather than finding ways to 
work with new opportunities like this one is a high price to pay, particularly 
as such a protest would have little or no impact on the course of the evolution 
of such technology. Obviously we need to stand up for our rights as we go 
forward, I am not advocating sticking our collective heads in the sand. This 
could go in a negative direction, particularly depending on who owns it and has 
access to it and we can re-evaluate things if necessary in the future.

As to the first industrial revolution, I think it's easy to forget what it was 
actually like to live a couple of hundred years ago compared to now. I'm with 
Geoff, overall it came out extremely well. That gives one a little cautious 
optimism that the second one might also do so, though as ever the future is not 
guaranteed.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 21/01/2023, 22:40, "use-livecode on behalf of Geoff Canyon via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Those only interested in LiveCode, click "next" now.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:40 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:

>
> After all, the Codex had been trained on billions of
> publicly available source code lines – including code
> in public repositories on GitHub. That included, among
> other things, all of the Apache Foundation's many
> projects' code.
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/11/githubs_copilot_opinion/ 
> 
>
>
> Stability Diffusion, Midjourney, and DreamUp were
> trained on copyrighted materials without credit,
> compensation, or consent, according to a new lawsuit.
>
> https://www.pcmag.com/news/artists-sue-ai-art-generators-for-copyright-infringement
>  
> 

My not-a-lawyer understanding is that this lawsuit is almost guaranteed to
fail. Just from a conceptual perspective, human artists have access to the
same copyrighted material (albeit not the ability to ingest *all* of it)
and even the ability to mimic it for their own edification. It's the act of
publishing similar work that is problematic. And it's going to be fun for
the lawyers to sort out who's at fault if I use Stable Diffusion to create
a corporate christmas card that happens to resemble the Coca-Cola polar
bears.

> We're a very long way from attempting to write all apps in assembler
> > using this sort of AI.
>
> Are we? As late as my teens I was still reading science mags saying
> "Well, AI is going to be a big deal, but no machine will ever beat a
> human at something as complex as chess."
>
> Big Blue beat world chess champion Garry Kasparov less than two decades
> later.
>
> So the goalpost moved, with explanations like "Well, chess is ultimately
> a memori

Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

An interesting point of view. We're a very long way from attempting to write 
all apps in assembler using this sort of AI. And humans are going to want to go 
on reading, editing and understanding code to create whole programs, whether 
produced by machine or a human, for a long time yet. When AI really is advanced 
enough to be creating an entire complex program in perfect assembler I think 
the world will change in so many ways that we'll have far bigger societal 
implications to consider than just its impact on scripting languages.

At the moment I see this as potentially heading towards a position where it 
could be quite an aid to scripting languages, both in terms of learning and 
helping write code. It might also take the shine out of some no-code 
environments as its probably easier to describe what you want your code to do 
and get back some nice clear English-like instructions (LiveCode script) than 
click on 100 boxes with menus and connectors to set up actions. Used in the 
hands of a skilled programmer it may become a particularly productive 
combination.

At the end of the day, this sort of AI is clearly going to happen and get 
better -  whether it comes from OpenAI or someone else. We will have about as 
much luck stopping that as stopping a change in the weather. When the wind 
changes, it's time to adjust your sails.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 20/01/2023, 19:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


If ChatGPT can write script, it can write machine code.

If it can write machine code, scripting is unnecessary.

If scripting goes, so goes scripting tools.

So before we donate much time to providing index fodder for the owners 
of ChatGPT, we might ask whether this is an investment we want to make, 
or perhaps at least ask for compensation for having provided the data 
that makes ChatGPT valuable for its owners.


-- 
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems


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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Its far more than a search engine. It can edit copy, write articles and analyse 
multiple inputs for similarities and differences and a lot more. Like all such 
new technologies this is going to be here to stay. So its not a case of trying 
not to train it in order to preserve programmer jobs. There will be plenty left 
for a human to do in building an app, we are just going to get more productive 
as this gets better. What is important is ensuring that LiveCode, which is 
supported already, is not left behind and that you can generate LiveCode code 
at the same standard as other languages. At present its coding abilities in any 
language are interesting but a bit ropy, lets ensure that as it gets better as 
it inevitably will, its LiveCode skills improve too.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 12/01/2023, 17:45, "use-livecode on behalf of harrison--- via use-livecode" 
mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


ChatGPT has been called a search engine without the search engine.
I would tend to agree with that. It seems to find bits and pieces of code
or articles that others have written before and tries to put them together.
It uses a text typing output mode to give it the appearance of an
intelligence/person typing at the keyboard, but that is part of the illusion.


ChatGPT claims that it isn’t connected to the internet, but it is, or it 
wouldn’t
be able to respond to your questions over the internet. The database
that it accesses for answers is however compartmentalized, as far as
we have been told.


If by some miracle we were able to train it to be super intelligent at
writing computer code, do we as programmers really want to shoot
ourselves in the foot by giving it the tools to replace our talent?
That’s food for thought. Just because something may be technologically
possible, doesn’t mean we should necessarily do that thing.


Just my two cents.


Enjoy your day!


Rick


> On Jan 12, 2023, at 9:02 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> yesterday was not a good session for me. all responses were irrelevant, and
> sometimes seemed random.
> we'll see what we find, the next time.


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Re: Sad news about Brahmanathaswami

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I'm sorry to hear this very sad news. Swami was a warm, helpful and 
enthusiastic member of our community for about as long as I can remember. He 
will be missed by our community and by many in the LiveCode team. Rest in peace.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 


On 25/12/2022, 17:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Andre Garzia via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:

Dear LiveCoders,

Many of you here remember Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami (some of you met him as 
Sannyasin Sivakatirswami many years ago). Swami has always been a champion for 
LiveCode and together with other other monks in Kaua’i Hindu Monastery built 
what is probably the largest LiveCode-backed website available on the net. He’s 
been a constant fixture here on the list for many years and many here been at 
some time or another worked with him on various projects. I’m sad to say that 
Brahmanathaswami passed away this week on Hawaii. His life has been full of joy 
among his beloved monks in a paradise Island full of love and sunshine. 

I’ve worked with him there on and off for the best part of maybe 18 years 
(we’re not exactly sure when I started), he’s been a great friend and together 
we built many wondrous things with LiveCode. I’ll forever cherish those years, 
and I hope you all remember him fondly today as well.

Kind regards
Andre
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Re: A few issues with web apps

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Don't worry the goal is for zero workarounds by the time we're ready to ship 
GM. These things are just there to keep you going in the mean time.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 19/08/2022, 18:16, "use-livecode on behalf of Tweedly via use-livecode" 
 wrote:


> On 19 Aug 2022, at 16:01, panagiotis m via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> BTW, I just wrote a lesson on how to scroll a LC text field on Web using
> :
>> 
Thank you. 
But at the risk of sounding ungrateful - please don’t.
Please just make basic functionality like resizing, scrolling, etc. Work 
properly and nicely out of the box.
Alex.

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Re: Sharing a desktop app, or with beta testers

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

While this may not be applicable in all cases, the Web deployment options in 10 
should resolve this for a great many sorts of LC apps. 

⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On 26 Jan 2022, 20:40, at 20:40, Keith Martin via use-livecode 
 wrote:
>If only it was easier to do. 😢
>I've actually stopped using LC much because the process of making apps
>that people can run without fuss has become ridiculous. I'm still
>hoping for a solution that isn't so aggressively hostile! The current
>situation feels like a direct threat to LiveCode the company, as it
>must be putting off more than a few people from becoming or staying
>customers.
>
>k
>
>Keith Martin
>360 media specialist http://PanoramaPhotographer.com
>Contact and info http://thatkeith.com
>+44 (0)7909541365
>
>
>
>> On 26 Jan 2022, at 20:24, matthias rebbe via use-livecode
> wrote:
>> 
>> If you have an Apple Developer Account membership you could code
>sign and notarize your app. 
>> This should prevent the security issue.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Matthias
>> 
>>> Am 26.01.2022 um 20:29 schrieb William Prothero via use-livecode
>:
>>> 
>>> Folks:
>>> Sorry for this question which probably has been answered many times,
>but …. I’m trying not to waste my day searching around.
>>> 
>>> What’s the best way to send a desktop app on Apple OS 12.1 to a
>friend or beta tester? I sent an app and a security issue came up.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bill P
>>> 
>>> William A. Prothero, Ph.D.
>>> University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences
>(Emeritus)
>>> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
>>> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/
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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in 
there but it has the issues you list.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 06/09/2021, 14:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

In the main thread, I mentioned that I found revOnline (aka "Sample 
Stacks"), but didn't say how or why. Here the answer to that ...

It has:

- no differentiation between 'libraries' and 'examples'

- it has no support for script-only stacks, which is surely the way most 
libraries will be done nowadays.

- a left hand scrolling box with ~90 'categories', in no particular 
order, no grouping

- grid vs list view - list shows you a list, which is basically the same 
as a 1-wide grid rather than 2-wide, plus a larger view of some random 
other item (OK, it's not random - it simply doesn't update when it should)

- updates when you click on the picture - but gives no cursor hint that 
you can do that

- a drop-down list for sort order - which isn't sized adequately when 
you first open revonline

- a 'search' box which must search something, but I don't know what. 
There is a sample stack called "Compare stack scripts", and which is 
tagged as "compare" - but isn't found if you search for "compare".

- and I usually find things via "browser + google" (or similar) and the 
stuff in samples stacks isn't visible that way.

H - maybe I've just found my next project :-)

Alex.


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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

The direction is broadly the one we are following, however we are always open 
to tweaking things.

With regard to the conversation on free starter kit/ non-standalone building 
etc, I'll copy what I said on the forums:

We have dabbled with a number of low cost /entry level offerings in the past. 
There used to be a starter kit that allowed only a certain number of lines of 
code per object. We had non-standalone building products e.g. 
DreamCard/revMedia. None of these models have worked well for a long list of 
reasons - indeed they caused huge issues for us. This problem is much harder to 
solve than you might think. Will we continue to refine our entry level 
offering? Yes definitely. Specific suggestions in this area are welcome, 
particularly directly to me rather than on here.

A number of you quite successfully outlined a number of the problem we had with 
these various models in the past. I'm not going to go into it further, but 
thanks to those that contributed.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 04/09/2021, 17:48, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

David, thats an interesting model to bring up.
I wonder how much of this new direction is considered to be etched in
stone, and how much is up for tweaking still.  Very happy to see signs that
the team is listening to all the feedback.






On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:37 AM David Bovill via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The clearest example of a free-forever development licence which you pay
> for when you wish to release your app is obviously Unity 3D. I remember
> when this project was a small developer community supported by a company
> and community of keen early adopters. I asked then why Livecode Ltd didn’t
> adopt a model close to that - sure there are differences between the game
> market and Livecode’s market but still?
>
> So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop
> “trial version” without the compilation framework and tools. I’m curious 
to
> the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there
> are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the
> compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and
> companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true 
for
> Livecode developers? I don’t / like / buy that argument - so I would love
> to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model?
>
    > 📆    Schedule a call with me
> On 3 Sep 2021, 15:07 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely
> specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key
> and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that
> once I finish getting unburried __
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> >
> > On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lagi,
> >
> > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2
> > points needing to be addressed.
> >
> > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP.
> >
> > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the
> > platform?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
> > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in
> the
> > > way
> > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
> > >
> > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an 
extension,
> > > and by the time they answer
> > > you get cheesed off and remove the program.
> > >
> > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6
> months
> > > (whichever comes first).
> > >
> > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without
> exiting
> > > for 6 months but it times out anyway.
> > > Even 

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely specific. You 
had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key and offered to Zoom 
to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that once I finish getting 
unburried __ 

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Lagi,

I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2
points needing to be addressed.

Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP.

Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the
platform?



On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the
> way
> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
>
>  You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension,
> and by the time they answer
> you get cheesed off and remove the  program.
>
> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months
> (whichever comes first).
>
> This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting
> for 6 months but it times out anyway.
> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so
> it will last 30 days.
>
> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without
> rushing.
>
> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those
> who want to give it a good try.
>
> You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with an OK
> button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).
>
> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on 
a
> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
> treacle.
>
> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in 
less
> than 30 minutes.
>
> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"  to
> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.
>
> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and
> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid 
idea
> of the lot so far)
>
>
> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky,
> stupid and not workable suggestions?.
>
> Lagi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give 
a
> > longer trial a shot at some point.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> >
> > On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via
> > use-livecode"  > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > True, true.
> >
> > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around
> > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a
> > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other
> > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I
> would
> > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option.
> >
> > Ralph DiMola
> > IT Director
> > Evergreen Information Services
> > rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On
> > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM
> > To: How to use LiveCode
> > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen
> > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding C

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

There are some good suggestions here around the Lagi, thank you. We will 
certainly be exploring ways to make that experience just right in the coming 
days.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 22:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Lagi Pittas via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the way
so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.

 You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension,
and by the time they answer
you get cheesed off and remove the  program.

The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months
(whichever comes first).

This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting
for 6 months but it times out anyway.
Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so
it will last 30 days.

This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without
rushing.

The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those
who want to give it a good try.

You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with an OK
button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).

But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a
16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
treacle.

If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less
than 30 minutes.

You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"  to
schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.

It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and
some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea
of the lot so far)


Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky,
stupid and not workable suggestions?.

Lagi







    On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a
> longer trial a shot at some point.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
> On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> True, true.
>
> There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around
> but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a
> programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other
> supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would
> not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option.
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
>
    >
    >     -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen
> Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition
>
> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free
> non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just
> download that.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
> On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen
> via use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Hi there
>
> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition
>
> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding.
>
> Michael
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscrib

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a 
longer trial a shot at some point.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

True, true.

There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around but 
you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a programming IDE 
and explain how to run the stack along with any other supporting files, SW or 
plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would not dismiss this 
out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf 
Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen
Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app 
building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Hi there

I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

That would be for personal use, and to learn coding.

Michael

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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app 
building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Hi there

I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

That would be for personal use, and to learn coding.

Michael

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Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I meant Bernard of course, apologies.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Kevin Miller via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Thanks Devin, I do appreciate the words of support. Change is always hard, 
and this particular one was something we were not looking forward to. But it 
had to be done and we will find our way through it.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 10:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Bernard Devlin via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Hi Kevin

I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum 
and I
think you're handling this superbly  In the last 5 years my house 
insurance
has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the
insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company
said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out".

Regards,

        On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
> On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to
> contact
> support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.
>
> It's true that open source has made things difficult for the 
company,
> but
> they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. 
Please
> do
> write to Heather.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, 
use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com
> wrote:
> >>
> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that
> were
> >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as 
the
> Startert
> >> Plan subscription expires.
> >
> > Not even Apple is that rapacious.
> >
> > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling 
stuff
> (although
> > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I 
have
> been
> > “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only 
LC
> uses
> > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating 
software
> I
> > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and 
occasionally
> > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC 
to
> move to
> > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made 
sense
> for
> > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford 
US$1000
> every
> > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even 
the
> Server
> > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that
> means the
> > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since
> Hypercard
> > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has 
come to
> an end.
> > A great pity, but I guess times move on.
> >
> > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and
> generous
> > community for many years.
> >
> > Neville Smythe
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
   

Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks Devin, I do appreciate the words of support. Change is always hard, and 
this particular one was something we were not looking forward to. But it had to 
be done and we will find our way through it.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 10:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Bernard Devlin via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Hi Kevin

I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum and I
think you're handling this superbly  In the last 5 years my house insurance
has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the
insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company
said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out".

Regards,

    On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
> On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to
> contact
> support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.
>
> It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company,
> but
> they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please
> do
> write to Heather.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com
> wrote:
> >>
> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that
> were
> >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the
> Startert
> >> Plan subscription expires.
> >
> > Not even Apple is that rapacious.
> >
> > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff
> (although
> > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have
> been
> > “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC
> uses
> > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software
> I
> > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally
> > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to
> move to
> > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense
> for
> > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000
> every
> > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the
> Server
> > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that
> means the
> > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since
> Hypercard
> > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to
> an end.
> > A great pity, but I guess times move on.
> >
> > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and
> generous
> > community for many years.
> >
> > Neville Smythe
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> ___
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> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscript

Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact 
support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.

It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but 
they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do 
write to Heather.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode 
 wrote:

>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>>
>> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were 
>> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the 
Startert 
>> Plan subscription expires.
>
> Not even Apple is that rapacious.
>
> I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff 
(although 
> the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been 
> “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses 
> being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I 
> wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally 
> contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move 
to 
> a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for 
> our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every 
> year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the 
Server 
> is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means 
the 
> app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard 
> day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an 
end. 
> A great pity, but I guess times move on.
>
> I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous 
> community for many years.
>
> Neville Smythe
>
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

We are of course incredibly grateful for the contributions we have received, 
all of which were spent on the project over many years. However I would note 
that 90%+ of all crowd funding campaign support came from license holders, the 
majority in the form of future license purchases. Commercial license revenue, 
whether crowd funded or not, was always the biggest source of funding for the 
open source project.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 01/09/2021, 16:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Brown via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

"I can only assume
many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that
doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of
progress."

That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was
contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years?  > $600k

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:30 PM Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these
> changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community"
> installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of 
jumping
> ship.  Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling".  I can only assume
> many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that
> doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost 
of
> progress.
>
> Regards, Bernard
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Re: Licensing model change

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Thanks Curry, we appreciate the feedback. Hope you feel better soon!

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 31/08/2021, 22:28, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via 
use-livecode"  wrote:


Kevin:

 > After 8 years with an open source offering we have come to
 > the conclusion this is not the way forward for LiveCode.

I agree. In 2013 I was on-the-record as an OSSLC skeptic.
I urged caution, but my input was summarily brushed aside;
"we've already decided with our VIPs" was the mindset.
There were many cheerleaders and nobody wanted analysis.

I seem to be vindicated, by time and facts.
My logic was not clouded by cliques or politiques.
Some of my worries came true, despite popular mantras.

Now as then, I offer some clear-headed thoughts in kindness.
Feel free to accept or ignore them; again time will tell.

To save us all another 8 years of issues, my advice now is:

1. Get the pricing right!

Dropping open-source is the first step, and that's right.
Pricing per platform is probably right, but needs tweaking.
Standard plan starts off right, but ends up too expensive.
The discount should increase per addon platform.

You will find that many people can't afford what they need.
Probably +1 platform per price tier would be nearer the mark.
Neither extreme is good; all freeloaders or all Cadillac.
Let's not jump from one mistake right to the other.

2. Get the code right!

A. We build software on LiveCode.
B. Foundations must be stable and solid.
C. The goal is to be easier and save dev time.
D. Therefore LiveCode must offer a solid foundation,
that is quite stable over time. (Moreso than Apple.)

LC 7 and 8 introduced tons of bugs. Buggy is bad.
Performance also dropped dramatically. Not good.

Today's roadmap looks like a step the right direction.
Some solid engine improvements.

For many years I've seen newbies unable to tell
whether a bug was LC's fault or their own.
That usually shouldn't be a tossup; firm foundation!
And LC needs to perform well to be competitive.

When an underlying API changes, our top-level code shouldn't.
Sometimes maybe, but usually not. Understand LC's paradigm.
Think how expensive client-side code changes were from 7 to 9.

3. Get the listening right!

I've warned about cliques and ever-changing inner circles.
Yep, there's a reason why group-think has a bad reputation. :)

Also about pre-biased poll designs and cherry picked focus groups.
Yep, you hear what you expect, but you don't get true feedback.

Diversity of opinion is good, and objectivity is rare.
But logic is a firm foundation, and emotion is not.
You won't recruit a new user generation by limiting the narrative.
Listen and learn. It always goes both ways. That's the beauty of it.

4. Happy coding!

I'm stick sick (fever too at the moment) so just pitching in
right now with my observations out of kind timely consideration.
So no flame wars at me please; time will verify what I've said.

Looks like we're entering a promising new chapter. Back to rest!
(More news of my own eventually, after I shake this illness)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Licensing model change

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I don't know your specific license plan and Heather has left for the evening, 
however generally if we promised something in the past we do honour it. 
Licensing emails are going out, if you don't have yours by tomorrow feel free 
to drop us a line in support.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 31/08/2021, 18:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Sean Cole (Pi) via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

What has happened to price lock-ins though? Will they get honoured? I'm
still paying for a web deployment that still doesn't work properly yet.
What is happening to that?

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 at 17:48, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I did not mean that we could get it to another firm for commercial use, I
> meant that we could potentially limp through, ourselves, with the 
exception
> of the pieces that were not OSS'd.
> Most of the time when we ask for source escrow, the fees are insane, if 
the
> developer will even discuss it.
    >
    > On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 12:39 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open 
in
> > the event of a business failure
> >
> > The GPL open source license we used never provided this sort of
> protection
> > due to the terms of the GPL. For that reason, we continued to sell 
source
> > code escrow licenses to some commercial users, even as an open source
> > company.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
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> >
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

You can only buy one plan time per person. Or if you are an organization, again 
you all need to be on the same plan. You can't buy two $9.99 platforms - 
Starter pricing is intended to be just that, to make it easy and accessible to 
get started.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 31/08/2021, 18:38, "use-livecode on behalf of Kaveh via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

OK. Price per month:

   - Starter plan Mac – £7.99
   - Starter plan Windows – £7.99
   - Starter Mac + Windows – £24.99

What am I missing?

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 at 18:03, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Don't forget the discount for however long that's good for
>
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 1:00 PM Kaveh via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Now I have to work out the new maze of pricing!
> >
> > On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 at 17:07, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > here is the announcement: https://livecode.org/
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > subscription preferences:
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kaveh Bazargan PhD
> > Director
> > River Valley Technologies  ●
> Twitter
> >  ● LinkedIn
> >  ● ORCID
> > 
> > *Accelerating the Communication of Research*
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>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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-- 
Kaveh Bazargan PhD
Director
River Valley Technologies  ● Twitter
 ● LinkedIn
 ● ORCID

*Accelerating the Communication of Research*
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Re: Can't reach license server...

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Nothing will change until the end of your current term. Emails are gradually 
going out to licensed customers at the moment so if you hang fire a few more 
minutes that information will be with you.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 31/08/2021, 17:30, "use-livecode on behalf of Andre Garzia via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Dear Heather,

Can you clarify what will happen to our current licenses? For example, I 
have an Indy license that goes into March 2022, how does that translate to the 
new offering? What features do I get?

It would be great if the Pricing FAQ could include some text on that topic.

Best
A

> On 31 Aug 2021, at 16:51, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> There was a temporary license problem which should now be fixed. If you 
are still seeing it please let me know in support.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 31 Aug 2021, at 16:49, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
 wrote:
>> 
>> That’s why I use the manual license method.
>> 
>> Hopefully they are aware of the problem and are working on it.
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>>> On Aug 31, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> When trying to launch LiveCode, I keep getting errors contacting the 
license server and I see that Livecode.com is currently down for maintenance, 
so hopefully, this is a very temporary issue.
>>> 
>>> However, is anyone else having problems running LC due to not getting a 
license validated?
>>> 
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Re: Licensing model change

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the 
event of a business failure

The GPL open source license we used never provided this sort of protection due 
to the terms of the GPL. For that reason, we continued to sell source code 
escrow licenses to some commercial users, even as an open source company.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself




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All new Kognition beta - LiveCode all-in Knowledgebase

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Folks,

 

As some of you may be aware, LiveCode has a stake in a start-up business, 
Kognition. Kognition have a very small team building an artificially 
intelligent way of working with information (using LiveCode).

 

We have a beta/demo version which we thought could be interesting to share with 
you. What we’ve done is connected it up to the various sources of LiveCode 
information we have, including the mailing list, forums, documentation etc so 
you can find answers to a LiveCode related question as you are scripting or 
building an app. Everything is cloud based so it stays up to date as new posts 
occur or documentation becomes available.

 

You can see how it works in this tour here:

https://youtu.be/Iu5KpZVhwrM

 

If you’re interested in trying it and have a little time to give us some 
feedback, the beta/demo program is free. We don’t allow you to import your own 
files in this version, just use the LiveCode data set that we have set up. Drop 
a line to supp...@livecode.com and we will get you signed up to try it out. At 
the end of the beta program this may potentially become a paid resource or 
integrated in some way if there is sufficient interest. And of course we are 
very interested in hearing about ways you might be able to use something like 
this in your own business or with clients, accessing other knowledge bases or 
bringing together specific sources of information. Kognition has the potential 
to be used in a wide variety of settings, anywhere where there is a information 
sitting in one or more system that you need to find answers from regularly.

 

Many thanks,

 

Kevin

 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/

LiveCode: Develop Yourself

 

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Re: [OT] Personal project

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Sean, thanks so much for this heartfelt response. BPD and Autism are 
particularly tough nuts to crack and I really feel for you. I've got plenty to 
say relevant to both believe it or not. I'll get there in time. And I agree 
that making others around you happy is a very important part of the meaning of 
life.

Thanks also to those others of you who wrote such positive responses today. I 
was a little nervous launching this and felt it was something that I needed to 
do nonetheless. It's clear this is something that has touched many of you or 
those around you. The friendly responses to this effort are so encouraging.

I don't want to lead this list deeply off topic by posting in a great deal of 
detail here. However if you want to engage on the channel itself with comments, 
feedback and questions either now or on future videos, I'll be very happy to 
respond on there as much as I can.

Thanks again for the feedback and for being the community that you are.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 24/10/2019, 15:47, "use-livecode on behalf of Sean Cole (Pi) via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

Dearest Kevin,

Massive respect to you for choosing, against the advice of your associates,
to make this public. I just watched the intro video and will continue to
follow the channel with deep interest.

As you are very likely aware, I have battled, often unsuccessfully, with
'clinical' depression and more recently been diagnosed with BPD (Borderline
Personality Disorder) and Autism. I recently found out that BPD is the most
discriminated against condition on the planet - which is nice! Health
Insurance costs up to 10 times more than any other condition. The stigma
behind these conditions is what can perpetuate them if not checked or
fought.

The NHS just wrote me off their books a year on since my last big incident.
They have to do that though, I understand it's not their fault. But, in the
last year, I have learnt a lot. I have learned the Meaning of Life! It is
simply 'To Make Others Around You Happy'. Helping others is helping
yourself. Showing interest in and care for others is really important. And
so-called 'social media' is deadly and abusive. It is far, far better to
get to know people up close and personal than via a corrupt intermediatory.

I am extremely grateful to all those on this group who supported me and put
up with my behaviour. It will never be forgotten. Also to those closest to
me for all they have done, especially my wife of 24 years, Judith.

I wish you all the success you deserve for both overcoming your conditions
and in maintaining your business. A good example to follow!

All the very best

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 13:56, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly
> LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link
> to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
>
> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based
> on my experiences:
> http://annihilatedepression.com
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
>
>
>
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[OT] Personal project

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi folks,

This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly LiveCode 
related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link to it here. 
Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.

Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based on my 
experiences:
http://annihilatedepression.com 

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself
 



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Re: Livecloud Bundle Offer

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi folks,

I¹m glad there is excitement about this offer.

However a little note of caution. At various points we make offers that
target specific groups for all sorts of reasons. For example, we might
offer a bundle to someone who has been on our mailing list for a long time
and who has never ever bought a license from us. In those cases it makes
sense for us to try to help move you up to the commercial version, in the
hope that as you use the commercial features and enjoy a level of success,
you may become a full price subscriber to at least one of the various
things we offer subscriptions to.

Clearly it would be completely unsustainable for us as a business to do
something like that if you weren¹t in such a category as our bread and
butter is revenue of all sorts from our subscriber base. The purpose of
this type of offer is increase the odds we ultimately grow full price
subscribers and purchasers. The Simulcast is certainly not available for
less than the list price to anyone, the conference is very expensive to
run and packed with valuable content.

If you get such an offer it states clearly it is personal to you and not
transferable. So posting it on the list puts us in the difficult position
of potentially having to decline a purchase from individuals who did not
receive it. That's not a situation we ever want to be in as it leads to
disappointment all round, but we don¹t really have a choice. This was not
a general offer open to everyone.

In general if you have questions about offers, pricing, licensing etc we
greatly appreciate it if you post them to supp...@livecode.com. This list
is about using LiveCode, and as such I would like to declare an end to
this thread.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself




On 28/04/2019, 16:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Rick Harrison via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>Hi Matthias,
>
>Nice one, but no thanks.
>
>Sometimes bundling isn¹t the best option for LiveCode vets.
>Individual offerings might be better for some of us.
>
>I don¹t think the mothership should leave money
>on the table by not offering other options.
>
>Just my 2 cents for the day.
>
>Enjoy your day! :-)
>
>Rick
>
>> On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
>> wrote:
>> 
>> You can order just the Simulcast here
>>https://livecode.com/california19/simulcast/
>> 
>> for 149$. ;)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 28.04.2019 um 04:35 schrieb Rick Harrison via use-livecode
>>>:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mark,
>>> 
>>> I have a Lifetime Indy LiveCode license.  So I don¹t need that.
>>> I have a Lifetime On-Rev license.
>>> I run my own servers with Postgresql as my database.
>>> (I really don¹t need LiveCloud yet.)
>>> I do not want to attend the conference in person.
>>> 
>>> So yes, in my case, the deal isn¹t good enough for me.
>>> I might only have interest in just the simulcast and recordings.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for asking.
>>> 
>>> Rick
>>> 
>>> 
 On Apr 27, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode
 wrote:
 
 On 4/27/19 6:45 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote:
 
> Is there a way to just get full access to the 2019 Simulcast
>streaming and recordings?
 
 Because $149 for that PLUS a LiveCloud subscription AND a permanent
9.0 license isn't a good enough deal for you?
 
 If you buy a $199 ticket to attend the conference and want to add
just the simulcast and recordings, that alone will add $149.
 
 -- 
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com
 
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Re: URGENT: MergGoogle no longer works on iOS: CLIENTS VERY UNHAPPY

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Sean,

I¹m very sorry to hear your demo went wrong today.

If its any consolation I¹ve been there and probably most of us have been
in that situation at some point in our careers. Even Steve Jobs had the
occasional demo that didn¹t work out! How you recover from that situation
is probably more important than the fact that it happened. Most customers
and clients understand that tech demos are fraught with potential issues
and will accept that if you can keep a level head and talk to them. One of
the techniques I have for doing demos - in common with many in this
industry - is to practice the whole thing 3 times the day before from
beginning to end. As this change occurred 20th April that would have given
us a few hours to respond Š rather than it being ³too late² now.

Could we have done a better job here? Possibly. We have hundreds and
hundreds of components in LiveCode and we generally try to maintain
compatibility within a couple of weeks of major upgrades and changes. For
whatever reason this change wasn¹t flagged by the processes we use to stay
on top here - and as a result we can review that process going forward. At
present Monte is asleep - yes even he needs sleep sometimes - and as he
wrote this component we really need him to chime in here and take a look
at what needs to be updated.

Generally its faster post to support than this list, though we do require
a support contract in place to help you. Nonetheless given how important
this is for you we will look at this issue when Monte gets up.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself




On 02/05/2018, 15:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Andre Garzia via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>Sean,
>
>Do you have a support package? They don't monitor this list close, it
>might
>be better to call them over the phone while sending a direct email to
>Heather. At least this is somewhat fixable on their side. I remember when
>I
>lost a ton of money when Apple decided that only Obj-C/Cocoa apps would be
>allowed on the store at the same time I was supposed to deliver a project.
>
>This kind of setback happens to everyone in the long run when we're using
>APIs outside our control. My advise would be to ping RunRev directly while
>calling the client, explaining that google deprecated a technology used in
>the project and thus it requires an extension.
>
>On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> It's all too late now. I'm walking with egg on my face. No response
>>from LC
>> still. despite being marked as urgent. To use the browser widget I would
>> have had to write the whole wrapper from scratch rather than use merg
>> dependance. If it had been written properly in the first place it would
>>not
>> have been an issue. Had it had a warning on it (and not suppressed) I
>>would
>> have been aware. Now my life is over. Worst Day Ever! Miserable. Rained
>>on
>> and soaked through. Insurance doesn't cover for events like this and not
>> one person at LC or on here will be able to help me out of this hole. I
>> guess this is goodbye.
>>
>> Sean Cole
>> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
>> www.pidigital.co.uk
>> +44(1634)402193
>> +44(7702)116447
>> 'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is
>>no
>> box!'
>> 'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside
>>of,
>> but it is yourself!'
>>
>> eMail Ts & Cs    Pi Digital
>> Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609
>>
>> On 2 May 2018 at 15:00, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I wonder if using the browser widget would be a temporary workaround
>>so
>> > that you get the flow the way google is asking for it.
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 9:38 AM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > If he had then it would also be in 8.1.10 or 8.2 (but it is not).
>>v9 is
>> > > basically still a beta (a GM beta!) as is incredibly buggy and
>> virtually
>> > > unusable for client projects. I wouldn't dare touch it yet till it
>>is
>> > > actually fully operational.
>> > >
>> > > Sean Cole
>> > > *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
>> > > www.pidigital.co.uk
>> > > +44(1634)402193
>> > > +44(7702)116447
>> > > 'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There
>>is
>> no
>> > > box!'
>> > > 'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look
>>outside
>> > of,
>> > > but it is yourself!'
>> > >
>> > > eMail Ts & Cs    Pi Digital
>> > > Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609
>> > >
>> > > On 2 May 2018 at 14:28, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
>> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi Sean,
>> > > >
>> > > > I feel your pain really!
>> > > >
>> > > > Just a question wouldn't the Oauth2 that is built in to LC9

Re: Digital Pomegranate

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Man that sounds rough. I hope things become ok over there.

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself




On 23/04/2018, 12:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Todd Fabacher via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>There are few moments in life that are more important than business and
>coding, this is one of them. All of Digital Pomegranate is our on the
>street rejecting the former president who had grabbed power after his term
>limits and has become a dictator in the former Soviet country. As you
>would
>expect, lots of arrests and the hospitals are full. Let's just hope they
>don't start shooting as have threatened to do.
>
>This has been going on for 10 days now and will continue. It is now
>starting to hit the nightly news cycle, so you will see it in the next few
>days. The internet has been on and off and now the entire company is on
>the
>streets asking for a free election and better government, so we will not
>be
>providing support for our new widgets for a few days.
>
>https://www.rferl.org/a/armenia-fresh-protests-sarkisian-yerevan-pashinian
>/29186416.html
>
>--Todd Fabacher
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Re: LiveCode Widget Factory

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

In my LiveCode Global team report in January.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 22/02/2018, 15:42, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>Todd Fabacher wrote:
>
> > As Kevin announced before...
>
>Where was this announced?
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>
>
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Re: Livecode.com server down

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Unfortunately we¹ve been the subject of a spate of sustained, intensive
hacking attempts. We had a series of incidents the other week and the last
couple of days has been a new round of attempts from a different angle.
We¹ve fought them off yet again, but some of our team are very tired.
Heather for one was up half the night. The systems are well designed and
no customer data has been affected.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 15/02/2018, 07:57, "use-livecode on behalf of Dave Kilroy via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>What Heather told me the last time this happened was to:
>
>a) disconnect your development machine from the internet
>b) launch LiveCode (it opens in offline mode)
>c) reconnect your development machine to the internet
>d) continue making awesome apps with LC
>
>
>
>-
>"The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes
>the other 90% of the time."
>Peter M. Brigham 
>--
>Sent from: 
>http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revolution-User-f278306.htm
>l
>
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Re: Datagrid 2

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I gave a demo of the progress on it in the last LCG. Its still on track
for completion in the last DP before Christmas.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 05/12/2017, 18:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>Hi folks, I'm bidding on a project and would like to get a sense as to the
>eta of datagrid 2 especially on mobile. I would love to buy a LC Indy
>License and do the job.
>
>During Campaign the eta was oct/november, but i get they are just
>estimates.  Is there a more up to date eta?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tom
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Re: HTML5 limitations?

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Yes you can. I'm at a conference just now but hopefully someone knowledgable on 
our team can jump in with more info.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Jul 2017, at 13:07, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Kevin,
> 
> Can you have a structure similar to having multiple stacks controlled by an 
> LC engine?
> 
> I am really curious how you guys set that up? Using localstorage and cookies 
> are the only methods I know of for doing that in regular html5 with multiple 
> tabs/windows.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Go in window of stack works
>> 
>> You can download stacks just fine
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 25 Jul 2017, at 12:46, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In HTML the browser is the engine that runs both HTML and JavaScript. It is 
>>> possible to have multiple tabs and there are some functions for 
>>> communicating between tabs and windows, but it isn't pretty. You have to 
>>> use localstorage and storage events.
>>> 
>>> This could be made to work similar to an LC engine running multiple stacks, 
>>> but it is like turning real fish into artificial crab. It is a lot of work 
>>> to make something that will probably leave you with a bad taste in your 
>>> mouth.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:30 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks. I don't think the sandbox is an issue, the app doesn't read or 
>>>> write to the user's drive at all. The various animations, and splash-stack 
>>>> approach might be a concern, as well as the number of stacks that are in 
>>>> RAM at any one time. Common images and icons are also stored in the 
>>>> standalone, which are displayed in the downloaded stacks as they are 
>>>> opened.
>>>> 
>>>> The only HTML5 examples I've seen are all self-contained single stack 
>>>> standalones.
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/25/17 2:00 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>> Well, the sandbox is a huge issue. JavaScript is not allowed to access 
>>>>> many things that LC can access in the user's system.
>>>>> The sandbox protects against malicious pages.
>>>>> It is very hard to simulate the mouseStillDown handler in HTML/JS.
>>>>> My app is a hybrid of LC and html5. The pace of development for LC is 
>>>>> easily 10 times faster for me.
>>>>> LC text processing and array management is much much more flexible.
>>>>> "Get the keys of myArray" beats enumerating through a JS array any day.
>>>>> JS does not have true associative arrays, although you can work around 
>>>>> that with datamaps.
>>>>> JS does not have programmatic access to the clipboard.
>>>>> Most of the limitations are related to security issues. If the sandbox is 
>>>>> not an issue, then html5 will probably work, but they should expect to 
>>>>> spend a fortune and live with a long development cycle with painfully 
>>>>> slow bug fixes.
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 2:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have a client that wants to move our project to HTML5. I have some 
>>>>>> doubts about the capabilities, could someone tell me what is currently 
>>>>>> possible and what is not?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a very large set of stacks, run by a standalone that loads 
>>>>>> content on demand from a server. It is image-heavy and interacts with a 
>>>>>> networked database. There is lots of navigation between stacks and many 
>>>>>> hundreds of cards. At any given time, there can be up to a dozen stacks 
>>>>>> held in RAM. There is also heavy use of visual effects and animation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>>>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> use-liv

Re: HTML5 limitations?

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Go in window of stack works

You can download stacks just fine

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Jul 2017, at 12:46, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> In HTML the browser is the engine that runs both HTML and JavaScript. It is 
> possible to have multiple tabs and there are some functions for communicating 
> between tabs and windows, but it isn't pretty. You have to use localstorage 
> and storage events.
> 
> This could be made to work similar to an LC engine running multiple stacks, 
> but it is like turning real fish into artificial crab. It is a lot of work to 
> make something that will probably leave you with a bad taste in your mouth.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:30 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks. I don't think the sandbox is an issue, the app doesn't read or write 
>> to the user's drive at all. The various animations, and splash-stack 
>> approach might be a concern, as well as the number of stacks that are in RAM 
>> at any one time. Common images and icons are also stored in the standalone, 
>> which are displayed in the downloaded stacks as they are opened.
>> 
>> The only HTML5 examples I've seen are all self-contained single stack 
>> standalones.
>> 
>>> On 7/25/17 2:00 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Well, the sandbox is a huge issue. JavaScript is not allowed to access many 
>>> things that LC can access in the user's system.
>>> The sandbox protects against malicious pages.
>>> It is very hard to simulate the mouseStillDown handler in HTML/JS.
>>> My app is a hybrid of LC and html5. The pace of development for LC is 
>>> easily 10 times faster for me.
>>> LC text processing and array management is much much more flexible.
>>> "Get the keys of myArray" beats enumerating through a JS array any day.
>>> JS does not have true associative arrays, although you can work around that 
>>> with datamaps.
>>> JS does not have programmatic access to the clipboard.
>>> Most of the limitations are related to security issues. If the sandbox is 
>>> not an issue, then html5 will probably work, but they should expect to 
>>> spend a fortune and live with a long development cycle with painfully slow 
>>> bug fixes.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
 On Jul 25, 2017, at 2:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 I have a client that wants to move our project to HTML5. I have some 
 doubts about the capabilities, could someone tell me what is currently 
 possible and what is not?
 
 This is a very large set of stacks, run by a standalone that loads content 
 on demand from a server. It is image-heavy and interacts with a networked 
 database. There is lots of navigation between stacks and many hundreds of 
 cards. At any given time, there can be up to a dozen stacks held in RAM. 
 There is also heavy use of visual effects and animation.
 
 Thoughts?
 
 -- 
 Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> 
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 11/07/2017, 23:05, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>
>Matthias Rebbe
>+49 5741 31
>?matthiasrebbe.eu ?
>> 
>> 
>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability
>>to
>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>
>I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I
>find it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct
>expression.
>Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make
>at least the height of that list smaller?
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Re: Fat widgets

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I haven't encountered this because our widgets are a library. But - I'm 
guessing - you could try the revert command?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 8 Jul 2017, at 15:49, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thank you very much. :)
> 
> This makes it so much easier to test stacks between 8 and 9.
> 
> I had to make some adjustments, because the source of my extensions is stored 
> somewhere else and the updateMessage is also not present.
> I get the widget recompiled when i load the stack, but the widget in the 
> stack still does not show up correctly. I have to unload and reload the stack 
> again.
> Can i somehow refresh the stack w/o having to unload and load again?


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Re: Fat widgets

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I don¹t see why not:

on openStack
   -- Build widgets and libraries
   if the environment is "development" then
  _checkExtension _rootFolder() & "/extensions/com.library.folder.here"
-- insert any others here
end if

end openStack

--
-- Remove all the files with the extension pExtension in the
-- current directory
--
command _removeExtension pExtension
   get "find . -depth 1 -name " & quote & "*." & pExtension & quote && "
-exec rm {} \;"
   get shell(it)
end _removeExtension
--
-- _checkExtension pFolder
--
-- Proceed to build and install the extension in pFolder if need be
--
command _checkExtension pFolder
   local tOldFolder, tFiles
   local tExtensionFolder
   
   set the itemDel to slash
   
   put item -1 of pFolder into tExtensionFolder
   
   put the defaultFolder into tOldFolder
   set the defaultFolder to pFolder
   
   put the detailed files into tFiles
   
   set the itemDel to comma
   
   local tPackageTime, tLcbTime, tPackageName
   
   repeat for each line tFile in tFiles
  local tFilename
  put urlDecode(item 1 of tFile) into tFilename
  
  if tFilename ends with ".lce" then
 -- Get the last modification date of the package
 put item 5 of tFile into tPackageTime
 put urlDecode(tFilename) into tPackageName
 
  else if tFilename ends with ".lcb" then
 -- LCB file we want to check
 put item 5 of tFile into tLcbTime
  end if
   end repeat
   
   -- Guess the extension name from the folder - only take the
   -- first 4 segments, as orientabletext folder, for instance,
   -- also has the version appended to the widget name
   local tExtensionName
   set the itemDel to "."
   put item 1 to 4 of tExtensionFolder into tExtensionName
   
   if tPackageTime is empty or tPackagetime < tLcbTime or \
 tExtensionName is not among the lines of the loadedExtensions then
  -- Missing or outdated extension package, or extension not loaded
  updateMessage "Building and installing extension" && tExtensionFolder
  
  _removeExtension "lci"
  _removeExtension "lce"
  _removeExtension "lcm"
  _removeExtension "xml"
  
  -- Make sure to remove the extension beforehand, installation does
not
  -- work properly if the extension already exists
  revIDEDeveloperExtensionUninstall pFolder
  
  wait 500 milliseconds with messages
  
  revIDEDeveloperExtensionInstall pFolder
  
  load extension from file tPackageName
  
  -- Let the IDE load the extension
  wait 500 milliseconds with messages
   end if
   
   set the defaultFolder to tOldFolder
end _checkExtension

--
-- _rootFolder
--
-- Return the root folder of the application
--
function _rootFolder
   if the environment is "development" then
  set the itemDel to slash
  return item 1 to -3 of the filename of me
  
   else
  return specialFolderPath("engine")
   end if
end _rootFolder


Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 08/07/2017, 14:30, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>Kevin,
>
>is it possible to get that script or is it not for the public?
>
>Regards,
>Matthias
>
>Matthias Rebbe
>+49 5741 31
>matthiasrebbe.eu 
>



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Re: Fat widgets

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

What we do one one large project that uses widgets and moves between 8 and
9 is to automatically recompile them on startup using a script. The logic
is simple - if a try determines the widget library functions are not
running and available, uninstall the widget, recompile it and reinstall
it. Its pretty much instant to do that and its mean that (in this project
at least) we¹ve stopped thinking about this issue.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 08/07/2017, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of hh via use-livecode"
 wrote:

>This is the current situation:
>[*] A stack that contains a widget that is compiled with LC 8.1.5
>can not be used with any other LC version than LC 8.1.5,
>[*] A stack that contains a widget that is compiled with LC 9.0.0
>can not be used with any other LC version than LC 9.0.0
>
>Mark Waddingham did recently already post thoughts to that here (see
>below).
>
>Option (1) below is the build of "fat widgets" that contain several
>binaries,
>one for each currently valid widget format. Would be great, thus one
>could be
>"downward compatible" in LC 8/9.
>
>Is there any chance to enable such "fat widgets" in the short future?
>[And how is this solved for the current company-widgets (Clock etc.)?]
>
>> On Jun 16, 2017; 11:10 Mark wrote:
>> > [MatthiasRebbe wrote:] Mark,
>> > regarding to recompiling widget for newer LC version:
>> > If i use LC 8 and 9, do i have to recompile it every time i use the
>> > other version?
>> 
>> Right now - yes - the lcm (compiled LCB) formats are not compatible.
>> 
>> There are a couple of potential solutions:
>> 
>> 1) Make it so that multiple LCM versions can sit in the same extension.
>> We can package up the lcb toolchain for each version as a distinct
>> download to help with this.
>> 
>> 2) Have a plugin in the IDE which fetches a git repo containing a widget
>> (or widgets) and compiles them locally. lc-compile is really lightweight
>> and bundled into the IDE so doing this automatically is quite
>> straight-forward.
>> 
>> Case (1) would work for people wanting to distribute lce files which
>> people can just install on their machine. Case (2) is suitable
>> particularly for community widgets - it would mean that anyone
>> subscribing to a particular 'widget repo' could get updates as soon as
>> they are pushed by the maintainer.
>> 
>> I think it is worth doing (1) regardless - it is a simple matter of
>> having say 'module.8.lcm' and 'module.9.lcm' files. The 9 format is
>> unstable until we go GM, but the 8 format is now 'stable' - i.e. won't
>> change ever again.
>
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Re: Feature Race: Pick Your Project

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

I¹m not sure if its apathy or more likely just the holiday weekend. That
said...

I¹m sorry its taken so long to do Infinite LiveCode. As I¹ve said in my
keynote, in the comments section and on the blog, we wouldn¹t be funding a
new project if it that one wasn¹t in the last stages of being wrapped up.
Android has been mostly delivered and the other platforms and stretch
goals are a small piece now. We really have finally cracked this project,
getting it into a build is the last step.

The reality is that we now need to look at what we are doing next and what
is affordable. If we don¹t fund this project, the knock on effects for the
platform will be very significant. We¹re already a very small team that
punches well above our weight. We have the potential for a very bright
future with the rather amazing stuff that you can now do. Check out Ali¹s
blog post on Android and wait a few more days for more. We can build on
everything we¹ve just created and maintain the considerable momentum we
have built or we can shrink.


Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 05/07/2017, 18:24, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Brown via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>The comments section on the pledge page gives a good insight as to why
>there may be a feeling of apathy towards this fundraiser
>
>The infinite livecode campaign from last year was not handled well in
>terms
>of communicating progress to the community, with questions about the
>sqlite
>library rewrite remaining unanswered
>
>On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
>use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Wow.  I'm surprised we aren't closer to getting this funded.  c'mon
>>y'all
>> let's get this funded!
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via
>> use-livecode  wrote:
>>
>> > I had similar feelings, (I have taken almost every pitch to "pay in
>> > advance for X number of years for this discount or thatŠ ) so when we
>>get
>> > hit up again for development that one would hope would be just part of
>> the
>> > product road map, it does indeed seem odd. Even "advanced smooth
>> scrolling
>> > graphics" seems odd to be funding, since all this is doing is bring
>>the
>> LC
>> > mobile on parity with any other smooth flowing app.
>> >
>> > This is terribly obvious, but just to say it all again:
>> >
>> > Thinking about it, one has to appreciate the challenge the company
>>faces.
>> > Having gone open source, Livecode moves to a world where everyone and
>>his
>> > kid sister thinks programming is free. PHP, Javascript, python,
>> CSSŠpeople
>> > living in those world just don't pay for their tools.
>> >
>> > So if open source users are going up (which apparently they are)Š that
>> > doesn't help us (to say the obvious)
>> >
>> > If not enough of them are using LC to build products for sale to
>>support
>> > themselves, OR are not using the tools in-house inside Enterprise
>>(like
>> we
>> > do here, even though we are non -profit we do have software budgets)
>> where
>> > budgets are such that the ROI on paid license(s) is well worth it.
>>And it
>> > would be easy enough for some unscrupulous for-profit company to have
>>5
>> > coders on community and only one license and pretty much get away with
>> > itŠ(which is cheating of course)Š
>> >
>> > So  If the user "pie" of those whose are paying  <> equal $ to support
>> the
>> > company and + hours for features, how does LC handle this, to stay
>>alive?
>> >  And we all want it to stay aliveŠright?
>> >
>> > I was hoping to talk to Kevin about some other ideas for solutionsŠ
>>but
>> he
>> > is busy. Perhaps I need to fly to Scotland for tea. In the meantime, I
>> > voted/pledged for the DataGrid2/GraphicsUpgrade.
>> >
>> > Brahmanathaswamai
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 6/24/17, 7:41 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via
>> > use-livecode" > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > So the Feature Race lets me choose between "Hosting debugger" and
>> > Datagrid 2.
>> >
>> > Hmpphhh!
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > I have a hard time voting for, or funding, Hosting debugger. I
>> already
>> > paid for that, back in 2009.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > use-livecode mailing list
>> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > subscription preferences:
>> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>>and did a little diving.
>> And God said, "This is good."
>> ___
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>> subscription preferences:
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Re: Preference for Keeping Saved Empty Button Scripts Empty

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Sooner would have been better. However just in case you missed it, the
architecture has been available to play with for many months and a native
field for Android is doable in 9-dp-7 posted last week. You have to change
a few words in Ali¹s native button LCB file - he explained which ones in
his talk. We¹ll follow with a blog post on that too shortly. There is a
widget course available https://livecode.com/topic/introduction-2/ now
which covers getting started with widgets. We will add in the info about
the FFI layer to that course shortly. We will also modify the object Ali
supplied to cover a whole variety of other native controls from the tools
palette given each is just a tweak to that LCB. Its all in there and open
source right now. Objective-C (and thus iOS) will be in DP 8.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 20/06/2017, 16:13, "use-livecode on behalf of Andrew Bell via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>I'd have a little more faith in crowd funding app features if the
>Native Field Object that I contributed for a year ago was available.
>
>https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode-native-field-object/
>
>--Andrew Bell
>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:57:30 -0400
>> From: Mike Kerner 
>> To: How to use LiveCode 
>> Subject: Re: Preference for Keeping Saved Empty Button Scripts Empty
>> Message-ID:
>>  
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> and another case where we should have a little crowd fund setup.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> > On Jun 19, 2017, at 12:49 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Right, but every time you open the script and then close it again, it
>>> keeps asking if you want to save the default. It gets irritating.
>>> >
>>> > I sometimes just replace the default entry with a single space and
>>>save
>>> it that way. Then it doesn't ask me again.
>>> >
>>> > I wouldn't mind a preference to turn off the default scripts.
>>> > --
>>> > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> > HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Kognition Beta Test - call for volunteers

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Hi Everyone,

A slightly unusual post from me today. For those of you that don¹t know,
LiveCode has been working in partnership with a new company as a joint
venture, to build an app to help manage information. We have built a system
that uses artificial intelligence techniques to help organize, sort and work
with documents. While this is an entirely separate company, the app has been
built in LiveCode (and utilizes a wide range of other technologies too).

Kognition is intended to help you manage the increasing volumes of
information that you create or receive, as well as being a tool to help
researchers conduct research or businesses to collect and analyze
information such as customer enquiries or bug reports. It presents an
artificially intelligent front-end that lets you relate documents together,
as well as organize, cluster and discover information in the relationships.
For example, if you are working on a project and receive an email with an
attachment, it can show you what other documents on your hard drive relate
to that attachment or are relevant to the project. If you have a customer
enquiry asking for a particular feature you can explore all the other
questions to find out how many others are asking about similar topics. The
system goes far beyond simple keyword analysis, for example it can relate
documents together that do not have the same words in them.

Today we have our very first beta available. Its a private beta, so if you
are interested in trying it out please drop me a note off list. Please
include a very short description of your company or you together with what
you might potentially use the system for. The first beta is Mac only and
requires a recent, high-end machine. Subsequent betas will extend to other
platforms and reduce system requirements. If you don¹t have a high end Mac
available today but are still interested, let me know and I can still send
you the videos to look at and include you in subsequent betas. Thanks in
advance for your interest.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: Downloads - Immodest Proposal

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Of course we listen. We read what comes in here and on many other venues.
We just don¹t always agree or have time to respond on every point. As far
as the marketing goes, as with all these things we will test different
approaches over time.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 14/04/2017, 09:45, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>My interest is primarily for the .com site, and I'm comfortable sharing
>my opinion. Of course they have every right to their own decision too
>and I have the deepest respect for that. In my experience LiveCode is a
>company that does listen over time, so it's always interesting to have a
>discussion, whatever the venue and final result, always in a friendly
>spirit.



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