Re: [OT] Sony music installs secret malware gateway

[xavier . bury]

No Richard, it's not just for PCs... 

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/11/11/064215.shtml?tid=233&tid=3

now, who read EULAs anyway?

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com/taoo

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/11/2005 08:23:36:

> We were recently discussing the pros and cons of Windows auto-run files 
> for CDs.  It turns out that the biggest threat isn't some 14-year-old 
> with a grudge -- it's one of the world's largest corporations:
> 
> 
> 
> Posted on Thu, Nov. 10, 2005
> Viruses exploit Sony CD copy-protection scheme
> 
> SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) - A controversial copy-protection program that 
> automatically installs when some Sony BMG audio CDs are played on 
> personal computers is now being exploited by malicious software that 
> takes advantage of the antipiracy technology's ability to hide files.
> 
> The Trojan horse programs -- three have so far been identified by 
> antivirus companies -- are named so as to trigger the cloaking feature 
> of Sony's XCP2 antipiracy technology. By piggybacking on that function, 
> the malicious programs can enter undetected, security experts said 
Thursday.
> 
> ``This could be the advanced guard,'' said Graham Cluley, senior 
> technology consultant at the security firm Sophos. ``We wouldn't be 
> surprised at all if we saw more malware that exploits what Sony has 
> introduced.''
> 
> The copy protection program is included on about 20 popular music 
> titles, including releases by Van Zant and The Bad Plus, and disclosure 
> of its existence has raised the ire of many in the computing community, 
> who consider it to constitute spyware.
> 
> Sony BMG Music Entertainment and the company that developed the 
> software, First 4 Internet, have claimed that the technology poses no 
> security threat. Still, Sony posted a patch last week that uncloaks 
> files hidden by the software.
> 
> On Thursday, Sony released a statement ``deeply regretting any 
> disruption that this may have caused.'' It also said it was working with 

> Symantec and other firms to ensure any content-protection technology 
> ``continues to be safe.''
> 
> Neither Sony spokesman John McKay nor First 4 Internet CEO Mathew 
> Gilliat-Smith returned messages seeking additional comment.
> 
> Windows expert Mark Russinovich discovered the hidden copy-protection 
> technology on Oct. 31 and posted his findings on his Web log. He noted 
> that the license agreement that pops up said a small program would be 
> installed, but it did not specify it would be hidden.
> 
> Manual attempts to remove the software can disable the PC's CD drive. 
> Sony offers an uninstallation program, but consumers must request it by 
> filling out two forms on the Internet.
> 
> ``What they did was not intentionally malicious,'' Cluley said. ``If 
> anything, it was slightly inept.''
> 
> The copy-protection software, which Sony says is a necessary ``speed 
> bump'' to limit how many times a CD is copied, only works on 
> Windows-based PCs. Users of Macintosh and Linux computers are not 
> restricted.
> 
> The viruses also only target Windows-based machines.
> 
> The infection opens up a backdoor, which could be used to steal personal 

> information, launch attacks on other computers and send spam, antivirus 
> companies said.
> ...
>  
com/mld/mercurynews/business/technology/personal_technology/13134753.htm>
> 
> 
> More at slashdot:
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Media Corporation
>   ___
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[OT] Sony music installs secret malware gateway

[Richard Gaskin]

We were recently discussing the pros and cons of Windows auto-run files 
for CDs.  It turns out that the biggest threat isn't some 14-year-old 
with a grudge -- it's one of the world's largest corporations:




Posted on Thu, Nov. 10, 2005
Viruses exploit Sony CD copy-protection scheme

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) - A controversial copy-protection program that 
automatically installs when some Sony BMG audio CDs are played on 
personal computers is now being exploited by malicious software that 
takes advantage of the antipiracy technology's ability to hide files.


The Trojan horse programs -- three have so far been identified by 
antivirus companies -- are named so as to trigger the cloaking feature 
of Sony's XCP2 antipiracy technology. By piggybacking on that function, 
the malicious programs can enter undetected, security experts said Thursday.


``This could be the advanced guard,'' said Graham Cluley, senior 
technology consultant at the security firm Sophos. ``We wouldn't be 
surprised at all if we saw more malware that exploits what Sony has 
introduced.''


The copy protection program is included on about 20 popular music 
titles, including releases by Van Zant and The Bad Plus, and disclosure 
of its existence has raised the ire of many in the computing community, 
who consider it to constitute spyware.


Sony BMG Music Entertainment and the company that developed the 
software, First 4 Internet, have claimed that the technology poses no 
security threat. Still, Sony posted a patch last week that uncloaks 
files hidden by the software.


On Thursday, Sony released a statement ``deeply regretting any 
disruption that this may have caused.'' It also said it was working with 
Symantec and other firms to ensure any content-protection technology 
``continues to be safe.''


Neither Sony spokesman John McKay nor First 4 Internet CEO Mathew 
Gilliat-Smith returned messages seeking additional comment.


Windows expert Mark Russinovich discovered the hidden copy-protection 
technology on Oct. 31 and posted his findings on his Web log. He noted 
that the license agreement that pops up said a small program would be 
installed, but it did not specify it would be hidden.


Manual attempts to remove the software can disable the PC's CD drive. 
Sony offers an uninstallation program, but consumers must request it by 
filling out two forms on the Internet.


``What they did was not intentionally malicious,'' Cluley said. ``If 
anything, it was slightly inept.''


The copy-protection software, which Sony says is a necessary ``speed 
bump'' to limit how many times a CD is copied, only works on 
Windows-based PCs. Users of Macintosh and Linux computers are not 
restricted.


The viruses also only target Windows-based machines.

The infection opens up a backdoor, which could be used to steal personal 
information, launch attacks on other computers and send spam, antivirus 
companies said.

...



More at slashdot:



--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Chipp Walters]

Dan,

Good point about XMLHTTPRequest, but as someone who works with dynamic 
content and CSS, I can tell you (and you should know this;-), getting 
CSS to perform as expected cross browser and cross OS is nigh impossible 
for dynamic content. At least it's not for the faint of heart!


That said and the rest of this discussion notwithstanding, I certainly 
cannot fault you for pointing out what you believe is a great 'shift.' 
Too bad Scott Raney, the father of Transcript/MetaCard wasn't here to 
applaud you for being only 9 years late:-)


His most prescient essay "The Case Against Strained Carrots" described 
the web services model before the term 'web services' was created-- back 
in 1996! Truly visionary stuff!

http://www.metacard.com/wp4.html

You are correct in that AJAX certainly has more momentum and visibility 
than Rev has ever had. And I imagine there are more AJAX apps, even at 
this early date, than Rev ones.


The Revolution secret, like the case against strained carrots, I plan to 
keep to myself! ;-)


your foil and your turn,

Chipp

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Re: QT anomaly

[sims]

sims wrote:

At 1:43 PM -0800 11/10/05, Richard Gaskin wrote:



   system=10.4.3



AlsoFrom http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=160037

"I installed the 10.4.3 update and I noticed that I don't have any 
sound in Warcraft III any more. Is there anything I can do before I 
wipe it out and reinstall it?"


Which prompted:

"I had a similar problem and this solved it:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300832

No sound from some applications,..."

ciao,
sims
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OT: Web site designer

[J. Landman Gay]

This is off topic, but you guys know everything. I told someone I'd ask 
here if anyone knows a reasonably-priced web designer to do a small web 
site, basic stuff, not too complicated. Money is an issue but there's 
some. Please let me know off list if you know anyone who might be 
interested and I'll get them in touch with the person. Thanks.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: QT anomaly

[sims]

sims wrote:

At 1:43 PM -0800 11/10/05, Richard Gaskin wrote:



   system=10.4.3



Looks like he's recently updated to 10.4.3, might some
weirdo permissions thing be involved? Maybe he might try
repair permissions?


Interesting notion. Could permissions affect a file such that it can 
play well in one app but not another?


Don't know...but perhaps a weirdo problem requires a weirdo solution.


Also, 10.4.3 seems to have caused weirdo problems with video cards:

"Dear SketchUp User: The release of Apple's update to OS X 10.4.3 has 
caused some problems for a number of OpenGL applications including 
SketchUp. If your video is driven by:


ATI video card: You may see extreme cases where dots follow your 
cursor when using tools like the Pencil tool in larger models. Or you 
may see things like lines that are drawn by the tool don't seem to be 
at the right depth. In both of these cases, the issue can be fixed by 
turning off fast feedback: SketchUp pulldown menu -> Preferences -> 
OpenGL -> uncheck "Use fast feedback"


nVidia video card: You may be unable to see geometry as it is drawn 
in large models until after the drawing action is complete - e.g., no 
rubber band stretching of an edge with the Pencil tool. This issue 
can be fixed by turning off fast feedback as mentioned above. You may 
also not be able to see the selection boxes when using the Select 
tool. Unfortunately, the only fix for this issue is to turn off your 
video card's hardware acceleration: SketchUp pulldown menu -> 
Preferences -> OpenGL -> uncheck "Use Hardware acceleration" These 
are the issues which have come to our attention, but there may be 
other problems. Unfortunately, the Apple update has caused problems 
for a number of other applications that use OpenGL. @Last is working 
with Apple to hopefully have Apple issue a fix as soon as possible. 
In the meantime if you have not already updated to OS X 10.4.3, @Last 
recommends that you refrain from doing so temporarily.We apologize 
for any inconvenience this may cause and please let us know if you 
have any questions or concerns."


ciao,
sims
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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

sims wrote:

At 1:43 PM -0800 11/10/05, Richard Gaskin wrote:



   system=10.4.3



Looks like he's recently updated to 10.4.3, might some
weirdo permissions thing be involved? Maybe he might try
repair permissions?


Interesting notion. Could permissions affect a file such that it can 
play well in one app but not another?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
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Re: QT anomaly

[sims]

At 1:43 PM -0800 11/10/05, Richard Gaskin wrote:


   system=10.4.3


Looks like he's recently updated to 10.4.3, might some
weirdo permissions thing be involved? Maybe he might try
repair permissions?

ciao,
sims
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RE: Safe (icon) image IDs

[MisterX]

> If I am creating a library of icons-is there a way of 
> ensuring that the ids are unique - keep getting "icon clashes"

David

Another xos function I've posted long ago...
(I'll add more of this to the taoo wiki soon)

We definitely need a mailist search web tool ;)
(if I had 8 hands...)

Imagine this is still "UNCO" in the bugzillas since 12/2004!

http://support.runrev.com/bugdatabase/show_bug.cgi?id=2449
But there's good and bad in it all...

Meanwhile here's the answer to your question...

http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard@lists.runrev.com/msg12009.html

There's lots more handlers like duplicate name checks, img id Fix (with id
specific ranges, fixes for controls using those medias), etc... in
the TAOO stacks. When I say lots more, I mean dozens and I still haven't
scripted half of all I plan to script for images alone ;)

But here's the interface so far:
http://www.monsieurx.com/tiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=11

File Download is for a near perfect image library here (4MBs) (beta warning)
http://www.monsieurx.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=82

Note this is both the main library and an external stack image browser
editor.
Too many features to list. But you can drag and drop images to import them
and it automatically assigns a new unique id in your range just to name a
couple!

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com/taoo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> David Bovill
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 01:48
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Safe (icon) image IDs
> 
> If I am creating a library of icons-is there a way of 
> ensuring that the ids are unique - keep getting "icon clashes"
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Re: set the systemFileSelector to false

[J. Landman Gay]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Anyone ever use this?

set the systemFileSelector to false

This used to allow the a rev built-in custom file selector (unix style). 
When I build my standalone with 2.6.1, this fileselector is not included. 
Once upon a time, there was a selectable item to include the unix file 
selector. I believe this is what is missing. How can I include the unix 
file selector in a 2.6.1 build?


It's still there in the Unix pane of the Standalone Applications 
Settings dialog. (That dialog is in the File menu.)


This week's scripting conference is on building standalones -- come and 
ask questions on Saturday.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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the kinks do not appear

[Erik Hansen]

--- Eric Chatonet
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 1. Set the style of each header to "link"
> 2. Set the underlineLinks property of your
> stack to false
> 3. Set the different link colors in an
> appropriate way if needed
> 
> Then the kinks do not appear

a great double-indentree!

> but do exist and you just need:
> 
> on linkClicked pLink
>
> end linkClicked
> 
> pLink mirrors always the complete header.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org



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Re: Revealing a folder on Mac

[Sarah Reichelt]

> on folder_Open someFolder
>  replace "/" with ":" in someFolder
>  put line 1 of the volumes into startUpDisk
>  -- "Macintosh HD:Applications:Revolution 2.6.1:"
>  put startUpDisk before someFolder
>
>  put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
>  put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
>  put return & "open folder" && kwote("[[someFolder]]") after
> someAppleScript
>  put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
>  put merge(someAppleScript) into someAppleScript
>  do someAppleScript as AppleScript
> end folder_Open
>
>
> Does this work for people?

Yes, it works for me (Mac OS X 10.4.3) but I prefer to let Rev do the
work of finding the correct path for AppleScript. Also I have never
used the merge function and can't really see why it is needed. Here is
my version, which includes an error check at the end:

on folder_Open someFolder
put revMacFromUnixPath(someFolder) into someFolder
put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
put return & "open folder" && kwote(someFolder) after someAppleScript
put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
do someAppleScript as AppleScript
if the result is not empty then answer error "Can't open folder "
& someFolder & cr & the result
end folder_Open


Note: I always use cr instead of return to make a new line as I like
to reserve the "return" keyword for sending values back from
functions.

Cheers,
Sarah
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RE: set the systemFileSelector to false

[MisterX]

you could grab the old selector from the MetaCard GUI and use that.

Im working on a tool for that for a long time and it evolved
out of that context. I'll see about putting something back
into shape for MC soon. I'll see about the Rev integration
later... Keep asking, I'll step it up!

cheers
Xavier

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 21:53
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: set the systemFileSelector to false
> 
> Anyone ever use this?
> 
> set the systemFileSelector to false
> 
> This used to allow the a rev built-in custom file selector 
> (unix style). 
> When I build my standalone with 2.6.1, this fileselector is 
> not included. 
> Once upon a time, there was a selectable item to include the 
> unix file selector. I believe this is what is missing. How 
> can I include the unix file selector in a 2.6.1 build?
> 
> Best regards,
> Roger Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
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Re: Safe (icon) image IDs

[Ken Ray]

On 11/10/05 6:47 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If I am creating a library of icons-is there a way of ensuring that
> the ids are unique - keep getting "icon clashes"

Well, we're keeping an informal ID registry (including the IDs used by
RunRev) at the revInterop site:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/revInterop

Click on "Database", then on "ImageIDs".

If you'd like to register for a range of ID numbers, let me know and I'll
add it to the list.

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Scott Rossi wrote:

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:



Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the way
down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name, and it
plays well on my system here running the same app with the same OS and
QT versions.  :(



You still might consider implementing the fix if you're distributing your
stack/app to multiple parties as this will make player performance more
reliable.

In any event, you say the difference between your setup and and you client's
is the user name.  Is it possible something is going on there?  Maybe some
non-Roman characters in the name or something else?


That's one difference, but does not appear to be a significant one --
his name is straight ASCII, verified in my log file.

Looking at other, stranger possibilities, I had him check his drives
free space and SMART status -- both ok.

This one's a stumper.  I know there's an answer, but I just haven't
discovered the secret to finding it



Just out of curiosity, did you try the space fix mentioned above to see if
it made any difference?  I understand that from all appearances it shouldn't
have any effect, but we've all seen the reality of
"it shouldn't, but it does...".


I did have him remove the space in the file name, but still no go.

I haven't yet sent him a new build with the URL syntax because I'm 
trying not to overload him with downloading and testing stuff.


If he's using US English I'm at a loss to understand why the URL syntax 
could come into play, and before I saddle him with another 2MB download 
it would be helpful to have Mark Waddingham or someone else familiar 
with the underpinnings explain why that might be useful.


The customer is in Canada, so he may have different language settings 
that I have here.  I've just sent him a note to ask which language his 
OS is set to.


When we're looking at file names in straight ASCII and which are short, 
under what circumstances would the URL syntax be helpful?


--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter T. Evensen wrote:
Could it be the path to the file name is too long?  Could he try moving 
it to a different folder closer to the root?


Thanks for the possible lead, but as shown in the log the full path and 
all elements in the path are pretty short.


I think we're facing something weird here, something unexpected but once 
we find it we'll go "a ha!".


--
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At 03:43 PM 11/10/2005, you wrote:


I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on 
my other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.


The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very 
descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.


I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
(7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.

The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
could be related to the known issue with long file names.

To help diagnose this I made a very simple test app, with one button, 
one field, and one player, with this script in the button:


-
on mouseUp
  if the optionKey is "down" then
set the filename of player 1 to empty
put empty into fld 1
exit to top
  end if
  --
  answer file "Select a file:"
  if it is empty then exit to top
  put it into tPath
  set the filename of player 1 to tPath
  put the result into tResult
  --
  put "system="& the systemVersion &cr& "QT="& qtVersion()&cr into tData
  put "machine="&machine()&cr &"Processor="&processor()&cr after tData
  put "Result="& tResult &cr&"sysError="&sysError() after tData
  put cr & "File="& tPath after tData
  put cr& "duration="& the duration of player 1 after tData
  put tData into fld 1
  --
  put fld 1 into url 
("file:"&specialFolderPath("Desktop")&"/HT-Test-log.txt")

end mouseUp
--


He reports the same error in this test app, with this log file:

   system=10.4.3
   QT=7.0.3
   machine=unknown
   Processor=Motorola PowerPC
   Result=could not create movie reference
   sysError=-5551
   File=/Users/xxx/Desktop/audiofile.aif
   duration=0


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?


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Re: QT anomaly

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

>>> Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the way
>>> down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name, and it
>>> plays well on my system here running the same app with the same OS and
>>> QT versions.  :(
>> 
>> 
>> You still might consider implementing the fix if you're distributing your
>> stack/app to multiple parties as this will make player performance more
>> reliable.
>> 
>> In any event, you say the difference between your setup and and you client's
>> is the user name.  Is it possible something is going on there?  Maybe some
>> non-Roman characters in the name or something else?
> 
> That's one difference, but does not appear to be a significant one --
> his name is straight ASCII, verified in my log file.
> 
> Looking at other, stranger possibilities, I had him check his drives
> free space and SMART status -- both ok.
> 
> This one's a stumper.  I know there's an answer, but I just haven't
> discovered the secret to finding it

Just out of curiosity, did you try the space fix mentioned above to see if
it made any difference?  I understand that from all appearances it shouldn't
have any effect, but we've all seen the reality of
"it shouldn't, but it does...".

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Selecting a Wireless Connection

[Michael D.]

Richard
Are the wireless access point private or public ?
I have multiple sites with wireless and use a unique additional DNS entry
(base convert the ip)per site to identify each location, I key off the
gateway address change. When the system see's this gateway change the system
will look for the unique DNS identifier then place that ID in its
environment for the app to key off so it knows where its location is.
Michael

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Selecting a Wireless Connection


> I've got an application that does not give users access to the standard
> OSX interface (it's a touch screen driven application). The application
> requires a wireless connection to operate. The computer running this
> application is portable, and there's no telling exactly which wireless
> connection may be available at any given location.
>
> Is there a way to get access to the available wireless connections from
> within Rev?
>
> Thanks.
> Richard Miller
> Imprinter Technologies
>
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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Scott Rossi wrote:

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:



Spaces in the file path will sometimes confuse Rev -- perhaps this is the
issue.  See the past thread here:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061722.html

...and also note the "space fix":

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061730.html


Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the way
down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name, and it
plays well on my system here running the same app with the same OS and
QT versions.  :(



You still might consider implementing the fix if you're distributing your
stack/app to multiple parties as this will make player performance more
reliable.

In any event, you say the difference between your setup and and you client's
is the user name.  Is it possible something is going on there?  Maybe some
non-Roman characters in the name or something else?


That's one difference, but does not appear to be a significant one -- 
his name is straight ASCII, verified in my log file.


Looking at other, stranger possibilities, I had him check his drives 
free space and SMART status -- both ok.


This one's a stumper.  I know there's an answer, but I just haven't 
discovered the secret to finding it


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
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Re: QT anomaly

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

>> Spaces in the file path will sometimes confuse Rev -- perhaps this is the
>> issue.  See the past thread here:
>> 
>> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061722.html
>> 
>> ...and also note the "space fix":
>> 
>> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061730.html
> 
> Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the way
> down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name, and it
> plays well on my system here running the same app with the same OS and
> QT versions.  :(

You still might consider implementing the fix if you're distributing your
stack/app to multiple parties as this will make player performance more
reliable.

In any event, you say the difference between your setup and and you client's
is the user name.  Is it possible something is going on there?  Maybe some
non-Roman characters in the name or something else?

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: pull down menu

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 2:23 PM +0100 11/10/2005, Dominik Hruza wrote:
i just started working with the program designing the interface for 
an adressbook


i want to get rid of the 3D effect in the menu of a pull down 
button, but set a background color and so on to the menu that 
appears.


If you want to specify the appearance yourself, rather than accept 
the way the system draws the menu, you need to do one of two things:


- Set the lookAndFeel to something other than "Appearance Manager". 
(This may not be a good choice, unless you want to completely control 
every aspect of the application's appearance and not use the OS 
appearance for anything.)


- Create a stack menu instead of using a button menu. A stack menu is 
simply a stack that appears when you click a button, and that behaves 
like a menu. Since you design the menu directly in a stack, you can 
have complete control over its appearance, colors, fonts, etc.


There's some information about stack menus in the online docs, at the 
bottom of the section on "About menus and the menu bar". There is 
also an example in the "Menus" scripting conference stack, which you 
can download from .

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Safe (icon) image IDs

[David Bovill]

If I am creating a library of icons-is there a way of ensuring that  
the ids are unique - keep getting "icon clashes"

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Re: Revealing a folder on Mac

[David Bovill]

Sorry:

function kwote string
return quote & string & quote
end kwote


On 11 Nov 2005, at 00:34, Dan Shafer wrote:


David

NOt without some understanding of what "kwote" does.

Dan

On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:28 PM, David Bovill wrote:



on folder_Open someFolder
replace "/" with ":" in someFolder
put line 1 of the volumes into startUpDisk
-- "Macintosh HD:Applications:Revolution 2.6.1:"
put startUpDisk before someFolder

put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
put return & "open folder" && kwote("[[someFolder]]") after  
someAppleScript

put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
put merge(someAppleScript) into someAppleScript
do someAppleScript as AppleScript
end folder_Open


Does this work for people?


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Re: Revealing a folder on Mac

[Dan Shafer]

David

NOt without some understanding of what "kwote" does.

Dan

On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:28 PM, David Bovill wrote:


on folder_Open someFolder
replace "/" with ":" in someFolder
put line 1 of the volumes into startUpDisk
-- "Macintosh HD:Applications:Revolution 2.6.1:"
put startUpDisk before someFolder

put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
put return & "open folder" && kwote("[[someFolder]]") after  
someAppleScript

put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
put merge(someAppleScript) into someAppleScript
do someAppleScript as AppleScript
end folder_Open


Does this work for people?
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Re: Need help with Revolution!

[Dan Shafer]

Thanks, Kevin. It's always nice to hear kind words from happy readers!

Dan

On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:18 PM, K J wrote:

Just wanted to say thanks Dan for creating your e-book on  
Revolution. I just
started reading it and I have to say so far I have learned alot  
from it. I

recomend this book to any newbie Revolution users out there.

Thanks

Kevin
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Revealing a folder on Mac

[David Bovill]

on folder_Open someFolder
replace "/" with ":" in someFolder
put line 1 of the volumes into startUpDisk
-- "Macintosh HD:Applications:Revolution 2.6.1:"
put startUpDisk before someFolder

put "tell application" && kwote("Finder") into someAppleScript
put return & "activate" after someAppleScript
put return & "open folder" && kwote("[[someFolder]]") after  
someAppleScript

put return & "end tell" after someAppleScript
put merge(someAppleScript) into someAppleScript
do someAppleScript as AppleScript
end folder_Open


Does this work for people?
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Selecting a Wireless Connection

[Richard Miller]

I've got an application that does not give users access to the standard 
OSX interface (it's a touch screen driven application). The application 
requires a wireless connection to operate. The computer running this 
application is portable, and there's no telling exactly which wireless 
connection may be available at any given location.


Is there a way to get access to the available wireless connections from 
within Rev?


Thanks.
Richard Miller
Imprinter Technologies

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Re: Need help with Revolution!

[K J]

Just wanted to say thanks Dan for creating your e-book on Revolution. I just
started reading it and I have to say so far I have learned alot from it. I
recomend this book to any newbie Revolution users out there.

Thanks

Kevin
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Re: QT anomaly

[Mark Talluto]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 2:22 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the  
way down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name,  
and it plays well on my system here running the same app with the  
same OS and QT versions.  :(


Any third-party system enhancements that might cause issues like this?



Because it is an audio file, it should not be too processor or memory  
intensive.  Can you convert it to another format and see if he/she  
can open it in your Rev app?  Is it possible for this individual to  
re-install QT.  Maybe something is corrupted with the current  
install.  These are just some thoughts.  It is clear that the problem  
lies probably with his/her system as it works just fine on other  
systems with the same installation.  We have to think about what is  
happening on their end.  Has this system had a fresh OS install  
lately or has it been incrementally updated since 10.0?  Just  
grasping for some ideas here.



Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: QT anomaly

[Peter T. Evensen]

Could it be the path to the file name is too long?  Could he try moving it 
to a different folder closer to the root?


At 03:43 PM 11/10/2005, you wrote:


I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on my 
other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.


The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very 
descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.


I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
(7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.

The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
could be related to the known issue with long file names.

To help diagnose this I made a very simple test app, with one button, one 
field, and one player, with this script in the button:


-
on mouseUp
  if the optionKey is "down" then
set the filename of player 1 to empty
put empty into fld 1
exit to top
  end if
  --
  answer file "Select a file:"
  if it is empty then exit to top
  put it into tPath
  set the filename of player 1 to tPath
  put the result into tResult
  --
  put "system="& the systemVersion &cr& "QT="& qtVersion()&cr into tData
  put "machine="&machine()&cr &"Processor="&processor()&cr after tData
  put "Result="& tResult &cr&"sysError="&sysError() after tData
  put cr & "File="& tPath after tData
  put cr& "duration="& the duration of player 1 after tData
  put tData into fld 1
  --
  put fld 1 into url 
("file:"&specialFolderPath("Desktop")&"/HT-Test-log.txt")

end mouseUp
--


He reports the same error in this test app, with this log file:

   system=10.4.3
   QT=7.0.3
   machine=unknown
   Processor=Motorola PowerPC
   Result=could not create movie reference
   sysError=-5551
   File=/Users/xxx/Desktop/audiofile.aif
   duration=0


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev

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Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 


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Re: [ANN] libMsn & MSN Revolution 1.0.0 Public Release 2

[Andre Garzia]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:23 PM, Sean Shao wrote:

Here's the second public release of my MSN Messenger "stuff". When  
was the first release? For the programming contest held by BvG.  
Anyways,


MSN Revolution is a MSN Messenger client written in Runtime  
Revolution entirely in Transcript. Currently it can login, get your  
contact list and you can chat with contacts. There are features  
from the first release that don't work in this release due to the  
re-write of the API in libMsn.


libMsn is MSPN9 (basically version 9 of the protocol) written  
entirely in Transcript. It handles all of the actual communication  
between your client and the MSN Service. MSN Revolution is powered  
by libMsn. Like MSN Revolution, libMsn is a work in progress and  
will be updated over time to add-in the missing feature set.


-Sean
www.shaosean.tk


Sean Shao,

Congratulations  I look forward to use your library. It's amazing  
to have oportunity to finally have a IM lib that can talk to msn.  
Thanks for your effort!!!


Cheers and thanks for your work
Andre
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[ANN] libMsn & MSN Revolution 1.0.0 Public Release 2

[Sean Shao]

Here's the second public release of my MSN Messenger "stuff". When was the 
first release? For the programming contest held by BvG. Anyways,


MSN Revolution is a MSN Messenger client written in Runtime Revolution 
entirely in Transcript. Currently it can login, get your contact list and 
you can chat with contacts. There are features from the first release that 
don't work in this release due to the re-write of the API in libMsn.


libMsn is MSPN9 (basically version 9 of the protocol) written entirely in 
Transcript. It handles all of the actual communication between your client 
and the MSN Service. MSN Revolution is powered by libMsn. Like MSN 
Revolution, libMsn is a work in progress and will be updated over time to 
add-in the missing feature set.


-Sean
www.shaosean.tk

_
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Scott Rossi wrote:

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:



I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on my
other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.

The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very
descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.

I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
(7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.

The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
could be related to the known issue with long file names.



Spaces in the file path will sometimes confuse Rev -- perhaps this is the
issue.  See the past thread here:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061722.html

...and also note the "space fix":

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061730.html


Thanks for the tip, but he and I are using the same path all the way 
down except for the user name.  I have spaces in the file name, and it 
plays well on my system here running the same app with the same OS and 
QT versions.  :(


Any third-party system enhancements that might cause issues like this?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
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Re: Rev and the Disappearing Desktop: A Focus Shift

[Dan Shafer]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:01 PM, David Bovill wrote:

This is OK - but more interested in Rev as a client side technology  
here. The two customers I know of want fast rich clients on the  
intranet, and standard web services that they can pick from a large  
range of open source developers and languages for. Take this as a  
third possibility?



Absolutely. I'm a great believer in "both-and" rather than "either-or">

I'm willing and eager to put some serious time and even a little  
money on the table to facilitate this if we can assemble a small  
team of people who want to explore it seriously.


Any interest?


Sure - would be prepared to top up the pot a little too,


Great. I'll check back and if we gen up enough interest, I'll figure  
out how to structure something.




~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Trevor DeVore wrote:

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Trevor DeVore wrote:


On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?


Try having the customer open the movie in QuickTime and see how  
that  goes.  Perhaps it will give a more detailed error message.



Sorry, forgot to mention that the customer reports being able to  play 
the file just fine in Apple's QuickTime player.


It's only both of our Rev-based apps he can't play it in, yet none  of 
us can reproduce that here.



Weird.  QT Player and Rev should be able to open the same formats in  
most cases (drm could possibly cause issues with some files).  Has  this 
been going on over a long period of time?   Has he tried a  rebooting?


Very weird.  This is a new app, and he's never been able to use it with 
any of his audio files.  He has rebooted, with no change.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
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Re: QT anomaly

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
> can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on my
> other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.
> 
> The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
> file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very
> descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.
> 
> I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
> The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
> (7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.
> 
> The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
> could be related to the known issue with long file names.

Spaces in the file path will sometimes confuse Rev -- perhaps this is the
issue.  See the past thread here:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061722.html

...and also note the "space fix":

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2005-July/061730.html
  
Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: QT anomaly

[Trevor DeVore]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Trevor DeVore wrote:

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?
Try having the customer open the movie in QuickTime and see how  
that  goes.  Perhaps it will give a more detailed error message.


Sorry, forgot to mention that the customer reports being able to  
play the file just fine in Apple's QuickTime player.


It's only both of our Rev-based apps he can't play it in, yet none  
of us can reproduce that here.


Weird.  QT Player and Rev should be able to open the same formats in  
most cases (drm could possibly cause issues with some files).  Has  
this been going on over a long period of time?   Has he tried a  
rebooting?



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

Trevor DeVore wrote:

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?



Try having the customer open the movie in QuickTime and see how that  
goes.  Perhaps it will give a more detailed error message.


Sorry, forgot to mention that the customer reports being able to play 
the file just fine in Apple's QuickTime player.


It's only both of our Rev-based apps he can't play it in, yet none of us 
can reproduce that here.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
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Re: QT anomaly

[Dave LeYanna]

I don't want to ask a stupid question but, how do you know the QT file 
on the client's system is a vaild format? Can they open it up outside of 
the Rev. app?


Dave

Richard Gaskin wrote:



I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on 
my other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.


The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very 
descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.


I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
(7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.

The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
could be related to the known issue with long file names.

To help diagnose this I made a very simple test app, with one button, 
one field, and one player, with this script in the button:


-
on mouseUp
  if the optionKey is "down" then
set the filename of player 1 to empty
put empty into fld 1
exit to top
  end if
  --
  answer file "Select a file:"
  if it is empty then exit to top
  put it into tPath
  set the filename of player 1 to tPath
  put the result into tResult
  --
  put "system="& the systemVersion &cr& "QT="& qtVersion()&cr into tData
  put "machine="&machine()&cr &"Processor="&processor()&cr after tData
  put "Result="& tResult &cr&"sysError="&sysError() after tData
  put cr & "File="& tPath after tData
  put cr& "duration="& the duration of player 1 after tData
  put tData into fld 1
  --
  put fld 1 into url 
("file:"&specialFolderPath("Desktop")&"/HT-Test-log.txt")

end mouseUp
--


He reports the same error in this test app, with this log file:

   system=10.4.3
   QT=7.0.3
   machine=unknown
   Processor=Motorola PowerPC
   Result=could not create movie reference
   sysError=-5551
   File=/Users/xxx/Desktop/audiofile.aif
   duration=0


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev

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Re: QT anomaly

[Trevor DeVore]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?


Try having the customer open the movie in QuickTime and see how that  
goes.  Perhaps it will give a more detailed error message.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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QT anomaly

[Richard Gaskin]

I have a customer for a new app who can't load a QuickTime file, yet I
can load the same file here without difficulty, and it works well on my 
other Mac, and on our tester's Mac.


The error occurs when I set the filename of the player to the selected
file, the result returning "could not open movie file".  Not very 
descriptive, but that's all I have to go on.


I've tried the file both from my local volume and a second partition.
The customer and I have the same OS version (OS X 10.4.3) and QT version
(7.0.3), and of course the same version of the Rev-based app.

The file name is short (about 12 characters), so I can't see how it
could be related to the known issue with long file names.

To help diagnose this I made a very simple test app, with one button, 
one field, and one player, with this script in the button:


-
on mouseUp
  if the optionKey is "down" then
set the filename of player 1 to empty
put empty into fld 1
exit to top
  end if
  --
  answer file "Select a file:"
  if it is empty then exit to top
  put it into tPath
  set the filename of player 1 to tPath
  put the result into tResult
  --
  put "system="& the systemVersion &cr& "QT="& qtVersion()&cr into tData
  put "machine="&machine()&cr &"Processor="&processor()&cr after tData
  put "Result="& tResult &cr&"sysError="&sysError() after tData
  put cr & "File="& tPath after tData
  put cr& "duration="& the duration of player 1 after tData
  put tData into fld 1
  --
  put fld 1 into url 
("file:"&specialFolderPath("Desktop")&"/HT-Test-log.txt")

end mouseUp
--


He reports the same error in this test app, with this log file:

   system=10.4.3
   QT=7.0.3
   machine=unknown
   Processor=Motorola PowerPC
   Result=could not create movie reference
   sysError=-5551
   File=/Users/xxx/Desktop/audiofile.aif
   duration=0


Any other clues as to how I might diagnose this?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev

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Re: Imitated multi-thread

[Hershel Fisch]

On 11/9/05 10:37 PM, "MisterX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Hershel
> 
> Yes it's possible. You can do so via sockets or files or
> sql to communicate among the different parts of your applications.
Thanks, could you give me a bit of understanding?
Hershel.
> 
> Note that each method has it's advantages and inconveniences.
> 
> cheers
> Xavier
> http://monsieurx.com/taoo
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> Hershel Fisch
>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 00:47
>> To: How to use Revolution
>> Subject: Imitated multi-thread
>> 
>> Hello, is there a possibility to imitate a multi-thread by
>> using a few separate stand alones ? If yes how, if not what yes?
>> Thanks, Hershel
>> 
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Re: Rev Image libraries

[David Bovill]

Not quite sure this gets them all - seem to be some things missing  
here compared to the rev image library drop down?


On 10 Nov 2005, at 22:03, David Bovill wrote:

Anyone got a handy little function for getting the file or stack  
names of all the rev image libraries: grocking this now - if that's  
the right terminology?


function rev_MyImageLibraries
put the mainstacks into allLoaded
filter allLoaded with "revLib*"
line_Delete "revLibrary", allLoaded
line_Delete "revLibStandardButtons", allLoaded
return allLoaded
end rev_MyImageLibraries

on line_Delete someLines, @fromContainer, partLine, skipLines
  set the wholeMatches to (partLine is empty)
  repeat with ii = 1 to the number of lines of someLines
put line ii of someLines into someLine
get lineOffset(someLine, fromContainer, skipLines)
if it is not 0 then
  put it + skipLines into lineNum
  delete line lineNum of fromContainer
end if
  end repeat
end line_Delete


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Rev Image libraries

[David Bovill]

Anyone got a handy little function for getting the file or stack  
names of all the rev image libraries: grocking this now - if that's  
the right terminology?

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Re: Rev and the Disappearing Desktop: A Focus Shift

[David Bovill]

On 10 Nov 2005, at 20:37, Dan Shafer wrote:

Absolutely. I see two possible applications for Rev in the emerging  
world of AJAX and RIA development.


First, there's what you suggest here, Andre: the creation of a tool  
for building such apps. Now there's a very interesting paradox here  
isn't there? Should such a tool exist as a standalone app? Or is  
that so inherently self-contradictory that it's: (a) a bad idea;  
and (b) an idea that would produce a product nobody would want to  
use? Good questions, for sure.


This is the planning stage - we have a client that needs this and is  
willing to put some up front money into it. Will know at the end of  
December. Would be good to develop a proof of concept, and would be  
prepared to share the revenue for the contract should it come through  
with a a few folks from this list.


Second, there's the idea -- on which you also touched -- of using  
Rev to create the *server-side* technologies that wrapper and  
facilitate the development and deployment of AJAX applications.


This is OK - but more interested in Rev as a client side technology  
here. The two customers I know of want fast rich clients on the  
intranet, and standard web services that they can pick from a large  
range of open source developers and languages for. Take this as a  
third possibility?


I'm willing and eager to put some serious time and even a little  
money on the table to facilitate this if we can assemble a small  
team of people who want to explore it seriously.


Any interest?


Sure - would be prepared to top up the pot a little too,

x
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set the systemFileSelector to false

[Roger . E . Eller]

Anyone ever use this?

set the systemFileSelector to false

This used to allow the a rev built-in custom file selector (unix style). 
When I build my standalone with 2.6.1, this fileselector is not included. 
Once upon a time, there was a selectable item to include the unix file 
selector. I believe this is what is missing. How can I include the unix 
file selector in a 2.6.1 build?

Best regards,
Roger Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Erin D. Smale]

Compensating for browser antics is probably where I spend a third of my 
programming time. There are certainly several tried-and-true means by 
which to ensure compatibility for particular modules in a so-called web 
app, but as client requirements get more complex, these techniques are 
proving less and less resilient to customer expectations. Of course, a 
good many of these problems could be avoided if:


(1) Software companies would adhere to standards during the development 
cycle
(2) Customers were given more realistic expectations of the limitations 
inherent to the browser/web server relationship (Yes, you can manage 
data; No, you cannot download the prescription you just ordered.)


IME, many clients (and not a few developers) still work under the 
incomplete notion that Web=Internet. As a result, customers get to 
believing that the Internet is useless without a web browser, and 
developers get discouraged when a browser limits application 
functionality. Like my father used to say, "You can't fit 10 pounds of 
 in a 5 pound bag."


While I do spend most of my "earning dollars" hours writing stuff with 
PHP and javascript and MySQL, there are several client applications in 
my recent past that I would have preferred to do "outside the browser." 
Now that I have Rev, I can start doing so with what I believe is a 
reasonable and cost-effective chance of success :-)


PS. On a positive note, using Rev to access data and resources on web 
servers does give us the opportunity to adopt standards from the 
beginning of an application's life cycle.


PPS. Great discussion--glad I joined the list!

-- Erin

Check out The Chimera RPG:
http://www.welshpiper.com



Trevor DeVore wrote:


On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:


The big kicker is the cross-platform/browser techniques.  This is a  
major pain.  In terms of testing, PHP and SQL are easy.  Getting  
things to work across browsers can be a headache.



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Re: previous card issue

[Brian K. Maher]

Hi Dave,

Ya know, I read that but it just didn't sink in.  That's what I get for writing 
code when I am tired.

Brian

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Re: previous card issue

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 2:21 PM -0500 11/10/2005, Brian K. Maher wrote:
The problem is that the preOpenCard code shown above /always/ seems 
to believe that the previous card is 'Welcome' and not the card that 
I just came from.


Am I misunderstanding something here?  Does 'previous' not mean the 
previously viewed card?


"previous card" means the card previous in the stack - the card whose 
number is one less than that of the current card.


What you want is "recent card".
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: previous card issue

[Dan Shafer]

Yes, you are misunderstanding. "previous" *always* means the card  
immediately prior to this one in the stack arrangement of cards.  
"recent" is the most recently card the user has visited.



On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:21 AM, Brian K. Maher wrote:

Am I misunderstanding something here?  Does 'previous' not mean the  
previously viewed card?




~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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Rev and the Disappearing Desktop: A Focus Shift

[Dan Shafer]

I sat down this morning to write a new email segueing off the topic  
of whether the desktop is disappearing or not and focusing on the  
question of how Rev could play in that space as it emerges. This  
allows us to abstract out the discussion about whether I'm right or  
wrong predicting the rapidly approaching ubiquity of AJAX and RIA  
apps built around general- or special-purpose Web browsers (what I  
called "thin clients" that, as Richard Gaskin pointed out, may not be  
so thin after all). Instead, we can focus on where Rev might play a  
key role in this new technique as it emerges.


And then Andre wrote:

I think there's a market for AJAX Development Tools, many people  
want to start to code with AJAX but there's no nice friendly  
environment yet. Also could dashboard widgets qualify as AJAX?


Absolutely. I see two possible applications for Rev in the emerging  
world of AJAX and RIA development.


First, there's what you suggest here, Andre: the creation of a tool  
for building such apps. Now there's a very interesting paradox here  
isn't there? Should such a tool exist as a standalone app? Or is that  
so inherently self-contradictory that it's: (a) a bad idea; and (b)  
an idea that would produce a product nobody would want to use? Good  
questions, for sure.


Second, there's the idea -- on which you also touched -- of using Rev  
to create the *server-side* technologies that wrapper and facilitate  
the development and deployment of AJAX applications.


Third, there's a marriage of those two tool approaches.

I'm willing and eager to put some serious time and even a little  
money on the table to facilitate this if we can assemble a small team  
of people who want to explore it seriously.


Any interest?



~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

Absolutely, Trevor, and several such libraries already exist. I'm  
doing a comparative analysis on them at the moment.


On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:15 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote:

A really good library for interacting with the DOM that has support  
for drag/drop and other interface niceties is a must if you are  
going to get into browser based web apps.




-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: previous card issue

[Dave LeYanna]

From the transcript dictionary...

Description
Use the previous keyword to move backward in the stack or to reference 
the card before the current card.


Description
Use the back keyword to return to the most recently visited card, or to 
designate a backScript.



Dave

Brian K. Maher wrote:


Hi Folks,

I have a stack with several cards named Welcome, Connection and 
NotAuditEnabled.  I start out at the Welcome card and the user clicks the Next 
button which does a go to card 'Connection'.  On the Connection card I have a 
preOpenCard handler which does the following:

if the short name of the previous card is "Welcome" then
   ... put empty into several fields ...
end if

When a certain condition happens on this card I do a go to card 
'NotAuditEnabled'.  This card explains some details about the error condition 
and allows the user to click a Previous button to go back to the Connection 
card and try again.  The Previous button does a go to card 'Connection'.

The problem is that the preOpenCard code shown above /always/ seems to believe 
that the previous card is 'Welcome' and not the card that I just came from.

Am I misunderstanding something here?  Does 'previous' not mean the previously 
viewed card?

I was able to get this to work the way I want by using push card & pop card.

Thanks, Brian

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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Andre Garzia]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 4:57 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

And your notions about 'specialized browsers' and discounting  
Andre's server development issues so quickly only points to the  
great hurdles which AJAX still has to make, currently with no  
visible roadmap.


Andre has a server developer's perspective on this and it's not  
that I discounted it quickly or lightly, just that it has to be  
seen for what it is: a single-perspective take. Again, I'm not  
interested in defending AJAX (or for that matter Laszlo) per se.  
The *concept* of thin clients running Web services-based  
applications has the endorsement and attention of a broad range of  
developers, big and small, and is starting to get some serious  
traction. Lumping it in with all that has happened in the past may  
be illustrative and may help it to avoid some of the known pitfalls  
but it doesn't diminish its future potential or validity.


hheheheh Dan I never though you took my points lighly :-) and yes, I  
am from a server perspective. I think many things can benefit from  
AJAX approach, mainly things from intranet related stuff and general  
network tasks like emails. Revolution could replace Javascript and  
HTML/CSS on Ajax, one could use Apache and XML to backend his app,  
which is almost what were all doing with auto update clients. The  
main benefit I see from using AJAX is that the user does not need to  
download anything. In this era of kiosks and appliances this is a big  
plus, I also like the perspective of running nice little Rev apps  
from pendrives, but thats not for everyone.


How could Rev jump on the bandwagon without loosing it's rev-ness. We  
can use Rev to help us develop, even if the end product is AJAX, Rev  
has a high level functions for string manipulation and AJAX is all  
about text scripts. One can use Rev to help not only the server part  
that is backed by Apache, but also to create code generation and  
management tools that will help to cope with the task of writting  
Javascript.


Using altuits altBrowser one can create the ultimate AJAX testing  
suite in Rev, and run everything from one app. This should get  
Revolution developers a nice enviroment to develop, even, if they are  
doing javascript. I don't like Javascript or jscript or whatever they  
are bundling with browsers these days but until browsers bundle  
better languages, we'll have to use it. a spidermonkey external might  
be cool too.


I think there's a market for AJAX Development Tools, many people want  
to start to code with AJAX but there's no nice friendly environment  
yet. Also could dashboard widgets qualify as AJAX?




My suggestion, is try and develop a full AJAX application, then  
get back to us on what you find. My gut tells me it's a lot more  
difficult than doing the same in Rev. For me, just like the other  
mentioned technologies, I'll wait and see.


I plan to do just that. And I hope a LOT of people wait and see.  
That just gives this old gray-haired techno-weenie enough of a head  
start to stay ahead of the stampede when it does come.


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previous card issue

[Brian K. Maher]

Hi Folks,

I have a stack with several cards named Welcome, Connection and 
NotAuditEnabled.  I start out at the Welcome card and the user clicks the Next 
button which does a go to card 'Connection'.  On the Connection card I have a 
preOpenCard handler which does the following:

if the short name of the previous card is "Welcome" then
... put empty into several fields ...
end if

When a certain condition happens on this card I do a go to card 
'NotAuditEnabled'.  This card explains some details about the error condition 
and allows the user to click a Previous button to go back to the Connection 
card and try again.  The Previous button does a go to card 'Connection'.

The problem is that the preOpenCard code shown above /always/ seems to believe 
that the previous card is 'Welcome' and not the card that I just came from.

Am I misunderstanding something here?  Does 'previous' not mean the previously 
viewed card?

I was able to get this to work the way I want by using push card & pop card.

Thanks, Brian

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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Trevor DeVore]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:


Trevor.

On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote:


Getting things to work across browsers can be a headache.


Start with the basic assumption that only a browser that groks the  
XMLHTTPRequest object is a candidate for AJAX technology  
deployment. The subset of those browsers is already very far down  
the path of eliminating or minimizing cross-browser problems. The  
problems arise because of the necessity most of us as Web  
developers feel we have to drag along the pre-modern browsers. If  
you focus only on the most recent generation of browsers, the cross- 
browser problems are becoming fewer and fewer, and libraries and  
functions exist to abstract away from those pretty easily.


This is true.  I was just writing something similar to your response  
to Chipp.  If you dive into this I would be interested to hear your  
experience with it.  My experience with testing apps running inside a  
browser in the past has been less than pleasant.  A really good  
library for interacting with the DOM that has support for drag/drop  
and other interface niceties is a must if you are going to get into  
browser based web apps.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dave LeYanna]

Ok, how's this...

Get a good marketing department for Sun and resurrect the hardware based 
JVM. Use a thin client that communicated with "application" that 
communicated with the JVM any or all of which could be anywhere with a 
minimum of the thin client and personal data being on your "personal" 
device. Your "application" could be anywhere, including your personal 
device. You could even have the hardware JVM in your personal device or 
it could be located anywhere and you just plugged your personal device 
into it.


Is there any reason that that wouldn't be the best of all worlds an a 
little less of a paradigm shift?


Oh, another thing, require that all applications be "user" skinable so 
that at least the user would have some consistency. There, not the 
programmer has some consistency and the user has some consistency and 
the model leaves room for anyone to implement any business model. 
Remember, no proprietary data format and a lot of "public" librarys for 
code reuse.


Dave

Dan Shafer wrote:

No, specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that RUN apps on the  
server. Thin clients, not thick.



On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that download apps from a  
server?





-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

Maybe it's a thin client that overate last night.

Dan

On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Given that a script interpreter will reside client-side in either  
the browser, a Ruby interpreter, a Python engine, or a Rev engine,  
the difference between "thick" and "thin" in this context seems  
largely semantic.


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

Trevor.

On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote:


Getting things to work across browsers can be a headache.


Start with the basic assumption that only a browser that groks the  
XMLHTTPRequest object is a candidate for AJAX technology deployment.  
The subset of those browsers is already very far down the path of  
eliminating or minimizing cross-browser problems. The problems arise  
because of the necessity most of us as Web developers feel we have to  
drag along the pre-modern browsers. If you focus only on the most  
recent generation of browsers, the cross-browser problems are  
becoming fewer and fewer, and libraries and functions exist to  
abstract away from those pretty easily.





-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan Shafer wrote:
No, specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that RUN apps on the  server. 
Thin clients, not thick.


Given that a script interpreter will reside client-side in either the 
browser, a Ruby interpreter, a Python engine, or a Rev engine, the 
difference between "thick" and "thin" in this context seems largely 
semantic.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:

Then there is the ubiquitous 'Web Services.' They have been touted  
by the press and media for the past 5 years as the 'new  
technology', yet we still see very little in the way of open web  
services available to write apps around. Certainly not the  
cornucopia the analysts led us to believe was coming.


I don't know what analysts projected a cornucopia (good word!) of Web  
services platforms, but there are quite a number out there. Virtually  
all of the app servers can be viewed as such platforms. The fact that  
something hasn't yet been done or done right doesn't make the  
fundamental notion wrong, only the timing perhaps.


And your notions about 'specialized browsers' and discounting  
Andre's server development issues so quickly only points to the  
great hurdles which AJAX still has to make, currently with no  
visible roadmap.


Andre has a server developer's perspective on this and it's not that  
I discounted it quickly or lightly, just that it has to be seen for  
what it is: a single-perspective take. Again, I'm not interested in  
defending AJAX (or for that matter Laszlo) per se. The *concept* of  
thin clients running Web services-based applications has the  
endorsement and attention of a broad range of developers, big and  
small, and is starting to get some serious traction. Lumping it in  
with all that has happened in the past may be illustrative and may  
help it to avoid some of the known pitfalls but it doesn't diminish  
its future potential or validity.


My suggestion, is try and develop a full AJAX application, then get  
back to us on what you find. My gut tells me it's a lot more  
difficult than doing the same in Rev. For me, just like the other  
mentioned technologies, I'll wait and see.


I plan to do just that. And I hope a LOT of people wait and see. That  
just gives this old gray-haired techno-weenie enough of a head start  
to stay ahead of the stampede when it does come.


(Let's see, to develop in AJAX, you probably need to be an expert  
in the following:

Javascript
HTML
CSS
PHP,ASP or JSP
SQL
DOM XML
cross-platform techniques
cross-browser techniques
ODBC

I agree with the first four items. It's not clear that you need to  
grok DOM XML at any depth because the XMLHTTPRequest object abstracts  
a lot of that stuff out and lets you use InnerHTML to update DOM  
components so that all you really need to know is the name of the  
component to be updated.


As for cross-platform and cross-browser techniques, I don't think  
those are as big issues as they seem. If you assume the user will  
live with a browser-based UI that isn't identical to his desktop  
platform, that issue gets eliminated. Cross-browser techniques are so  
far almost zero because once you've established that the browser  
understands the XMLHTTPRequest object -- either as a standard part of  
the environment or, in the case of IE, as an ActiveX component --  
you've pretty much eliminated MOST (though surely not quite all) of  
the browser dependencies.


And I can't imagine that understanding ODBC would be necessary at all.

Also, I think it's important to point out that to write ANY decent  
interactive Web content, you have to understand the first four things  
on your list -- or team up with others who do. So that's hardly a  
compelling anti-AJAX argument.


To undertake serious app development in Rev, you have to master a  
fairly broad set of technologies, techniques and skills as well. I  
don't think that makes Rev an unusable environment.



Wow! That's a lot.)

I, too, like the idea of very thin clients. But as you know,  
they've been tried before, and before, and failed. Perhaps the  
underlying reason they fail has nothing to do with software  
availablility, but rather the requirement for some users to work  
'off the net' and most users to 'own their own data.'


I think this has been a problem of the absence of a critical mass or  
tipping point. And I think that point is about to be reached. That's  
what this whole discussion is really about. I don't disagree with any  
of the analyses that have taken place here with respect to where we  
have been in the past or where we appear to be today. My vision is  
fixed on the future. The day is soon coming -- if it's not already  
here -- when there will be orders of magnitude more server-based  
applications than Rev applications. I just want Rev to play a  
legitimate and visible role as this emerges.




best,
Chipp


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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That Reuturn Key again!

[Thornton, John]

Hi again,
When I am editing  scripts, my Return key disables at random moments, usually 
meaning that I have to exit the stack totally and read it in again so that 
(maybe) in recovers!  Is there anyone that has come across this?  I am using 
Redhat Linux.
Regards,
John.
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

No, specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that RUN apps on the  
server. Thin clients, not thick.



On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that download apps from a  
server?




-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Trevor DeVore]

On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:

(Let's see, to develop in AJAX, you probably need to be an expert  
in the following:

Javascript
HTML
CSS
PHP,ASP or JSP
SQL
DOM XML
cross-platform techniques
cross-browser techniques
ODBC


The big kicker is the cross-platform/browser techniques.  This is a  
major pain.  In terms of testing, PHP and SQL are easy.  Getting  
things to work across browsers can be a headache.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Group scroll bar on 2000

[Peter T. Evensen]

Hey, all.

I hope someone can answer this question quickly.  I have a scroll bar on a 
group and a scroll bar on a field.  Under 2000, the group scroll bar has a 
thick border around it.  On the field, it doesn't.  Is there a way to turn 
off the border on the group's scrollbar?


Thanks!

Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Trevor DeVore]

Hi Dan,

On Nov 10, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:
Once again, your view is limited to what now is rather than to what  
can and will emerge. Software is an ecosystem. Today, if you took  
your blogging tool and made an AJAX version, you might well see  
yourself being forced to create a massive and expensive network/ 
server infrastructure. But you might not. Mirrored sites, a mesh of  
cooperative servers run by a third party supplier, rented space on  
a large server farm with on-demand capacity...there are dozens of  
possible solutions to the problem.


I'm not sure what value all of this rented server space and  
infrastructure add in the example Andre provided.  The only reason he  
would need as server is to download updates from within the program.   
Does the server really need to be involved beyond this?  It just  
seems that in this case you are using a steam roller to kill an ant.


Now, services like Basecamp  really profit from  
this sort of design.  My company uses it for project management  
internally and externally.  It is very easy for us to give clients  
access to the service so they can manage their projects with us.   
There is nothing to download and it is a nice use of AJAX.


Server-side Rev componentry to support AJAX would be another great  
opportunity.


Dan, I would be interested in knowing a little more about how you  
would like Revolution to behave differently or how it could be  
improved here?


AJAX isn't using any new technologies.  They are just using them in a  
certain way.  Revolution already supports XML so we can make requests  
to the server side logic of an AJAX application.  Rev doesn't refresh  
the screen every time a request is made to the server so we already  
have that benefit.  So I think Revolution can already play in this  
market.  You do have to download Revolution apps which is appropriate  
in some cases and in others this might not be desirable.  Project  
requirements and target customers will dictate what needs to be done  
here.


I've already created apps in Rev that interface with a web  
application using XML-RPC so besides having to download the software  
(which wasn't a drawback at all for my project) what benefits does  
AJAX provide?


There are several such large gems lying on the ground waiting for  
someone to pick them up and run with them. This stuff is in its  
infancy. An evolutionary shift in infrastructure is needed. Before  
its adoption by MS and Sun and other Big Players, that kind of  
change would have been difficult if not unthinkable. Their entrance  
into the marketplace makes it inevitable at the same time as it  
accelerates the day of its ubiquity.


MS and Sun entering the market definitely gives it some legs and will  
evolve the principles behind AJAX, but I don't think you can say that  
the method these companies choose for deploying apps based on these  
principles will be the only method used.


All of the arguments that have been advanced here to demonstrate  
why I'm wrong are based on today's reality and even then I don't  
agree with most of them because their viewpoint is necessarily  
limited to the experience of the individual expressing them. But if  
we raise our eyes up to the horizon and look at what can and may  
well happen to facilitate this new wave in software, I think we can  
-- and I certainly do -- conclude that there is not a single  
insurmountable problem out there.


If specialized browsers do evolve I would imagine that they would  
make the developers life easier by giving access to system controls  
such as native buttons, fields, etc.  It would probably also give you  
a standard means of programming that is either javascript or uses the  
ECMA 262 standard.  Some variant of CSS would probably be used as  
well for applying styles to text, etc.  Perhaps that is how they  
would handle positioning as well.  I don't know.  Really all they  
would be doing is providing a standard development environment that  
had native controls and didn't rely on the support for DHTML and CSS  
built into browsers.  IMO this is functionality that Rev supports now.


Now, can Rev evolve and find niches in this evolving market?  Most  
likely.  I'm just happy that we have this functionality now rather  
than later.


This is a very interesting discussion you've started Dan.  It is good  
to look at these issues and find out where Rev fits in relative to it  
all.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[David Bovill]

On 10 Nov 2005, at 18:50, Dan Shafer wrote:

Once again, your view is limited to what now is rather than to what  
can and will emerge. Software is an ecosystem. Today, if you took  
your blogging tool and made an AJAX version, you might well see  
yourself being forced to create a massive and expensive network/ 
server infrastructure. But you might not. Mirrored sites, a mesh of  
cooperative servers run by a third party supplier, rented space on  
a large server farm with on-demand capacity...there are dozens of  
possible solutions to the problem.


To put it another way - it is about the price of code reuse. Setting  
up a web service and getting many apps around the world to use this  
web service is becoming very cheap. Think of running a Rev app on  
your ADSL line of the future. Think how much easier it is to maintain  
and support such a service without having to deal with installation  
problems - Magic Carpet or no magic carpet. Think of how much  
flexibility you give your end customers when they can use Rev front  
ends to layout and process the results of these web services how they  
see fit. The unintended uses of the web service


It is not either web service + thin client - it is how web services  
will change the relationship.


What I'm trying to do here is to get the Rev community to think  
outside the desktop application box into which it fits so neatly  
because it is my considered opinion, based on more than three  
decades of experience in technology assessment and analysis, that  
the box is rapidly disappearing. I don't want us to abandon Rev; I  
want us to figure out new things we can do with Rev -- or get  
RunRev to add to or change about Rev -- that will allow it to play  
a premier role in the changing marketplace.


Dan -I agree with you 100% here. It is important that we understand  
this change and give RunRev enough time to plan this into their  
strategy - else many developers will have to move over to other  
toolkits that do take such a path.


For a simple example: the best-of-breed AJAX developer's toolkit  
could and perhaps should be written in Rev. Server-side Rev  
componentry to support AJAX would be another great opportunity.  
There are several such large gems lying on the ground waiting for  
someone to pick them up and run with them.


If you take a look at AJAX technology frameworks such as Ruby on  
Rails - you will see how easy it is to add a web service which simply  
does the job of replacing a  tag with a piece of HTML. If this  
web service returns htmlText = xHTML then we can just place it in a  
field in Rev.


What does this mean? It means a small Rev based team (I am the only  
one here) can work with open source web developers and create great  
interfaces and faster development than any web designer (unless you  
get too flash with your interfaces :)


What else does this mean? You can sell your strategy with Rev. Throw  
away the marketing hype regarding AJAX (though you can use it if you  
want :) - the real point is you can tell your client - "this is  
quicker and more powerful) to develop the GUI in Revolution :) - but  
once done this acts as a spec for creating truly great AJAX web  
sites! Ultimate AJAX client prototyping. Of course the client will  
rarely want the inferior AJAX interfaces once they are hooked on the  
Rev interfaces - but they have a path for zero install scalability  
which is clear and cheap.


More - what does it mean for the choice of programming language? At  
the moment in the era of monolithic web applications - you go one way  
- choose your language - perl, php, python, java... then get your  
team and implement. How many times has this cut out smaller languages  
such as Rev from the picture - not enough developers.


Now Rev developers can be a meaningful part of that team. The risk  
has been removed for the client - they know they can switch to AJAX  
and browser delivery if RunRev fold.


When I discovered Rev and then quickly discovered how minuscule its  
audience was, I was discouraged at the same time I was encouraged.  
I was discouraged because I feared Rev would go the way of so many  
other great technologies whose companies couldn't sustain them  
through slow-growth periods. I no longer worry much about that. I  
was encouraged because if only a small number of people "get" Rev,  
my competitive landscape is uncluttered and accessible. The same is  
true for AJAX except there's no need for a single company to be  
involved in any meaningful way


As an example here with the TV project i am working on - I have some  
perl programmers working on web services related to LDAP, some php  
programmers working on XML based services (for some reason there were  
more of them available), and Java developers working on the financial  
crypto stuff - most all of these projects are open source. For the  
client develop the interfaces in Rev - the interfaces layout the  
resulting fragments of text o

Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Richard Gaskin]

Andre Garzia wrote:
That's one reason why I think the BIG ones will do some AJAX as  flavour 
of the month (or year) and the small developers will keep to  the 
desktop, desktop is cheaper and easier to deliver. For the big  ones is 
also a question of pride and image, like "Hey Microsoft,  Google is 
winning over you, saw their online apps? You can't do that,  you're 
lame!!!". The Big players are not only in it for the money,  but they 
must also, avoid loosing face. I just want to deliver nice  software, 
it's not a matter of pride.


The plot tickens.


Perhaps thick as merde.

I found the comments at Winer's site more interesting than the "leaked" 
memos:



Microsoft is bigger than any of the news agencies reporting on these 
memos. And strange as it may seem, even bigger than Dave Winer, who 
posts the actual proprietary documents.


Why do you suppose Microsoft would allow such "private" information to 
remain publicly available?


I doubt it's because the largest and most predatory software company in 
history can't find a lawyer to serve a simple cease-and-desist.


That web apps will become an increasingly important "also" at Microsoft 
and everywhere else is a given.  But replacing all apps?  Somehow I 
think not, and I suspect Microsoft's clever marketing move is as much a 
distraction as anything else, consistent with the company's demonstrated 
character and history


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Chipp Walters]

Dan,

Do you remember Phillips CDI initiative, or the many other CD-ROM 
developer platforms? They all made grand promises but never delivered.


Even more recently, think about Java and it's promise of cross-platform 
clients? Again, everyone had to stop and convert over to Java, but now 
we see it's only a great server tool, not for clients.


Then there is the ubiquitous 'Web Services.' They have been touted by 
the press and media for the past 5 years as the 'new technology', yet we 
still see very little in the way of open web services available to write 
apps around. Certainly not the cornucopia the analysts led us to believe 
was coming.


So, this just seems like another one of the 'jump on the bandwagon' type 
of technologies, which has promise, but doesn't deliver.


And your notions about 'specialized browsers' and discounting Andre's 
server development issues so quickly only points to the great hurdles 
which AJAX still has to make, currently with no visible roadmap.


My suggestion, is try and develop a full AJAX application, then get back 
to us on what you find. My gut tells me it's a lot more difficult than 
doing the same in Rev. For me, just like the other mentioned 
technologies, I'll wait and see.


(Let's see, to develop in AJAX, you probably need to be an expert in the 
following:

Javascript
HTML
CSS
PHP,ASP or JSP
SQL
DOM XML
cross-platform techniques
cross-browser techniques
ODBC

Wow! That's a lot.)

I, too, like the idea of very thin clients. But as you know, they've 
been tried before, and before, and failed. Perhaps the underlying reason 
they fail has nothing to do with software availablility, but rather the 
requirement for some users to work 'off the net' and most users to 'own 
their own data.'


best,
Chipp

Dan Shafer wrote:

So if most of you on this list disagree with  me and
go on your merry way, that just means fewer competitors for  those of us 
who do jump on the AJAX bandwagon while it is still  moving slowly 
enough for us to stake out positions on its top level.


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan Shafer wrote:

I mentioned specialized browsers specifically in my post.
I just  think these specialized browsers will be ultrathin,
designed to  facilitate access to the "application" (which
I suspect quickly  becomes a sort of outmoded notion as the
lines blur) on the server or  the grid.


Specialized ultra-thin custom browsers that download apps from a server?

Sounds a lot like what we're doing with Rev today.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

Andre.

On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Andre Garzia wrote:


desktop is cheaper and easier to deliver


Once again, your view is limited to what now is rather than to what  
can and will emerge. Software is an ecosystem. Today, if you took  
your blogging tool and made an AJAX version, you might well see  
yourself being forced to create a massive and expensive network/ 
server infrastructure. But you might not. Mirrored sites, a mesh of  
cooperative servers run by a third party supplier, rented space on a  
large server farm with on-demand capacity...there are dozens of  
possible solutions to the problem.


What I'm trying to do here is to get the Rev community to think  
outside the desktop application box into which it fits so neatly  
because it is my considered opinion, based on more than three decades  
of experience in technology assessment and analysis, that the box is  
rapidly disappearing. I don't want us to abandon Rev; I want us to  
figure out new things we can do with Rev -- or get RunRev to add to  
or change about Rev -- that will allow it to play a premier role in  
the changing marketplace.


For a simple example: the best-of-breed AJAX developer's toolkit  
could and perhaps should be written in Rev. Server-side Rev  
componentry to support AJAX would be another great opportunity. There  
are several such large gems lying on the ground waiting for someone  
to pick them up and run with them. This stuff is in its infancy. An  
evolutionary shift in infrastructure is needed. Before its adoption  
by MS and Sun and other Big Players, that kind of change would have  
been difficult if not unthinkable. Their entrance into the  
marketplace makes it inevitable at the same time as it accelerates  
the day of its ubiquity.


All of the arguments that have been advanced here to demonstrate why  
I'm wrong are based on today's reality and even then I don't agree  
with most of them because their viewpoint is necessarily limited to  
the experience of the individual expressing them. But if we raise our  
eyes up to the horizon and look at what can and may well happen to  
facilitate this new wave in software, I think we can -- and I  
certainly do -- conclude that there is not a single insurmountable  
problem out there.


When I discovered Rev and then quickly discovered how minuscule its  
audience was, I was discouraged at the same time I was encouraged. I  
was discouraged because I feared Rev would go the way of so many  
other great technologies whose companies couldn't sustain them  
through slow-growth periods. I no longer worry much about that. I was  
encouraged because if only a small number of people "get" Rev, my  
competitive landscape is uncluttered and accessible. The same is true  
for AJAX except there's no need for a single company to be involved  
in any meaningful way. So if most of you on this list disagree with  
me and go on your merry way, that just means fewer competitors for  
those of us who do jump on the AJAX bandwagon while it is still  
moving slowly enough for us to stake out positions on its top level.





-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

I do not disagree, David. I don't necessarily think that either AJAX  
or RIAs in general need be confined to the existing standard browser.  
I mentioned specialized browsers specifically in my post. I just  
think these specialized browsers will be ultrathin, designed to  
facilitate access to the "application" (which I suspect quickly  
becomes a sort of outmoded notion as the lines blur) on the server or  
the grid.


On Nov 10, 2005, at 3:21 AM, David Bovill wrote:


standard HTML browser based thin clients - no.




-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Dan Shafer
Technology Visionary - Technology Assessment - Documentation
"Looking at technology from every angle"
http://www.eclecticity.com


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Re: Basic focus issue!

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, David Bovill  wrote:

> With the Address Book I am trying to deal really properly with their
> edibility - click on them and they change appearance (come to the
> front) click elsewhere and they fade back into the background. The
> problem with closefield is that it is not sent if the user does not
> change the text. There are hacks for this - no? What's the best?

The docs should explain:

 closeField is sent when the field's contents have been changed

 exitField is sent when the field's contents have *not* been changed

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Andre Garzia]

Folks,

one thing we're ignoring on this thread but that is a very important  
issue. The cost for the developer to deliver desktop apps versus the  
cost to deliver web apps. This is a major issue for small developers  
such as me. For example imagine my old blog client called BlogWorkz.  
It's a desktop app that allows you to post to Blogger API 1.0 enabled  
blogs, the main selling point of this tool was: "It frees you from  
tedious logins and cabalistic HTML Interfaces." and that was the main  
reason people bought the shareware. It's a simple app and probably  
could be cloned to AJAX in some days without loosing any huge  
Interface experience. BlogWorkz and it's former cousin iBlog have,  
counting only versiontracker, near 15 thousand downloads. If I was to  
run an iBlog/BlogWorkz AJAX app that could support thousands of  
customers I would need: a big server, a huge pipe to the internet,  
probably would use some RDBMS to store user settings and data (I  
don't have such experience on serving thousands custormers). My  
server would need periodical backups and some backup server case the  
main one falls or I'll face user riots. This just to serve thousands,  
which is not a very high number for me to profit on advertisements.  
BlogWorkz sells for cheap $10, this price is not enough to cover my  
cost developing it and pay for all the structure needed to serve it  
as AJAX app. No way I could use AJAX advertising paradigm on the  
softwares I am building, I am too small for that.


That's one reason why I think the BIG ones will do some AJAX as  
flavour of the month (or year) and the small developers will keep to  
the desktop, desktop is cheaper and easier to deliver. For the big  
ones is also a question of pride and image, like "Hey Microsoft,  
Google is winning over you, saw their online apps? You can't do that,  
you're lame!!!". The Big players are not only in it for the money,  
but they must also, avoid loosing face. I just want to deliver nice  
software, it's not a matter of pride.


The plot tickens.
Andre
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Re: about drag an image...

[Rob Cozens]

Hi Andre,


just want do be
able to toogle a "drag mode" so that the user can re-org some
controls on the stack... I remember some silly thing like "drag me"
but I can't recall just now. Can someone point me in some direction


local lastImagePosition

on mouseDown
   put the loc of me into lastImagePosition
end mouseDown

on mouseMove
   get the mouseloc
   if it is within the boundingRect of me then set the loc of me to it
   else set the loc of me to lastImagePosition -- back to original 
loc if cursor leaves boundingRect

end mouseMove

works for me.

Set the image's boundingRect property to constrain the portion of the 
window the image can reside in.


Rob Cozens

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free...
 it expects what never was and never will be."

 -Thomas Jefferson  


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Re: Basic focus issue - slight fix!

[David Bovill]

-- to prevent rapid mouse movements making rev think the target is  
the card or something else...
-- probably even better / safer to give all the fields a custom  
property and check that


on mouseEnter
put the long id of the target into focussedRecord
if word 1 of focussedRecord is "field" then
set the lockText of focussedRecord to false
end if
end mouseEnter

on mouseLeave
put the long id of the target into focussedRecord
if word 1 of focussedRecord is "field" then
set the lockText of focussedRecord to true
end if
end mouseLeave
--
on openField
put the long id of the target into focusRecord
select_Editable true, focusRecord
--pass focusIn
end openField

on focusIn
put the long id of the target into focusRecord
select_Editable true, focusRecord
--pass focusIn
end focusIn

on focusOut
put the long id of the target into focusRecord
select_Editable false, focusRecord
--pass focusOut
end focusOut

on closeField
put the long id of the target into focusRecord
select_Editable false, focusRecord
   --pass closeField
end closeField
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pull down menu

[Dominik Hruza]

Hi,

i just started working with the program designing the interface for  
an adressbook


i want to get rid of the 3D effect in the menu of a pull down button,  
but set a background color and so on to the menu that appears.


thanks
.d

 
 
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Rob Cozens]

Dan, et al:


Some people may well want to continue to pay premium prices for
software so that they can keep their data on their local drives, but:
(a) those people will eventually have to give way to the market
forces if for no other reason than that all the software publishers
head over there;


They won't be forced if some vendors continue to make desk-top apps 
available, and those vendors will have a greater share of of this 
"smaller (?)" market if major vendors abandon it.



and (b) there really needn't be a connection between
where the software is and where the data is unless the user wants
such a connection.


And, at least last time I checked, many do:

Shortly before I left the FlexWare world, I was called in on a 
project to link FlexWare with an eCommerce package.  The project was 
was scoped out between the two software vendors and moi, then the 
client who requested the link was brought into the loop.  Once the 
client realized that his company's customer, product, price, and 
sales data would reside on an off-site computer owned and run by 
another company, he pullled the plug.


This does not mean a company couldn't find some advantages in 
browser-driven INTRAnet apps.  But a lot of smaller companies (a) 
don't need a network that spans more than one physical location, and 
(b) lack the resources to build & maintain one.


Also, how do the economics work if each user wants a different 
version if the app?  For a decade and a half I made my living 
tweaking FlexWare accounting modules to work the way a single company 
wanted it to work.  I never ceased to be amazed at how much even 
small companies are willing to invest to have a system that works the 
way they do business instead of being forced to change their business 
or accounting procedures to meet the requirements of packaged 
software.  And after the economics, what are the logistics of 
maintaing multiple versions of the same browser-driven app for different users?


Finally, Andre's point about all the other ways data must be created 
and maintained before & after a web commerce transaction is well taken.


Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631) 


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Re: Repeat for each

[Marty Knapp]

>>That's what I thought! Interestingly enough in my repeat for each 
loop I had "set cursor to busy" and that's what was bring this thing to 
its knees. I knew that a progress >>indicator was a hog, but had no idea 
that this would take such a heavy toll. Searches that were running 5 
minutes now take about 5 seconds.
>>Not too surprising - if you want to keep the busy cursor (worth it 
for a 5 sec loop, IMHO), I'd put it into a conditional


 >add 1 to tBusyCounter
 >if tBusyCounter mod 1000 = 0 then set cursor to busy

It's just been a habit of mine to se the cursor to busy, but have never 
considered that it could be slowing things down so much. Thanks for you 
input on this Alex (and others) I appreciate it.



Marty Knapp
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Re: how to reject a mouse

[Charles Hartman]

That will be very helpful for another little problem I seem looming  
down the road. For this instance, the simpler method of disabling the  
field works fine. Thank you.


Charles


On Nov 10, 2005, at 9:17 AM, David Bovill wrote:


Did a quick experiment - try putting this script in a scrolling field:

on mouseDown
if the autohilite of me is true then
put the params
end if
end mouseDown

on mouseUp
if the autohilite of me is true then
put the params
end if
end mouseUp

and then changing the autohilite of the scrolling field - works for  
these messages and keeps the hilited line fixed - if thats what you  
want?





On 10 Nov 2005, at 15:01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Charles

set the autoselect of the field and eventually the traversalON to  
false

set the locktext to true of course...

OR

simply disable the field (visual change)...

cheers
Xavier


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 14:55:16:



I'm not sure if this is related to the recent "Basic focus issue"
thread or not.

I want to be able (on the basis of whether another button is enabled
or not) to refuse the attentions of any mouse-clicks in a field that
I'm using as a scrollable list. Trapping mouseUp and/or mouseDown
seems not to work (unless I've done something else wrong).

Is there a right way to do this?

Charles Hartman

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Re: how to reject a mouse

[Charles Hartman]

Perfect -- disabling the field produces just the right visual message  
for the user. Thanks!


Charles


On Nov 10, 2005, at 9:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Charles

set the autoselect of the field and eventually the traversalON to  
false

set the locktext to true of course...

OR

simply disable the field (visual change)...

cheers
Xavier


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 14:55:16:


I'm not sure if this is related to the recent "Basic focus issue"
thread or not.

I want to be able (on the basis of whether another button is enabled
or not) to refuse the attentions of any mouse-clicks in a field that
I'm using as a scrollable list. Trapping mouseUp and/or mouseDown
seems not to work (unless I've done something else wrong).

Is there a right way to do this?

Charles Hartman

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Re: how to reject a mouse

[David Bovill]

Did a quick experiment - try putting this script in a scrolling field:

on mouseDown
if the autohilite of me is true then
put the params
end if
end mouseDown

on mouseUp
if the autohilite of me is true then
put the params
end if
end mouseUp

and then changing the autohilite of the scrolling field - works for  
these messages and keeps the hilited line fixed - if thats what you  
want?





On 10 Nov 2005, at 15:01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Charles

set the autoselect of the field and eventually the traversalON to  
false

set the locktext to true of course...

OR

simply disable the field (visual change)...

cheers
Xavier


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 14:55:16:



I'm not sure if this is related to the recent "Basic focus issue"
thread or not.

I want to be able (on the basis of whether another button is enabled
or not) to refuse the attentions of any mouse-clicks in a field that
I'm using as a scrollable list. Trapping mouseUp and/or mouseDown
seems not to work (unless I've done something else wrong).

Is there a right way to do this?

Charles Hartman

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Re: how to reject a mouse

[xavier . bury]

Hi Charles

set the autoselect of the field and eventually the traversalON to false
set the locktext to true of course...

OR

simply disable the field (visual change)...

cheers
Xavier


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 14:55:16:

> I'm not sure if this is related to the recent "Basic focus issue" 
> thread or not.
> 
> I want to be able (on the basis of whether another button is enabled 
> or not) to refuse the attentions of any mouse-clicks in a field that 
> I'm using as a scrollable list. Trapping mouseUp and/or mouseDown 
> seems not to work (unless I've done something else wrong).
> 
> Is there a right way to do this?
> 
> Charles Hartman
> 
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how to reject a mouse

[Charles Hartman]

I'm not sure if this is related to the recent "Basic focus issue"  
thread or not.


I want to be able (on the basis of whether another button is enabled  
or not) to refuse the attentions of any mouse-clicks in a field that  
I'm using as a scrollable list. Trapping mouseUp and/or mouseDown  
seems not to work (unless I've done something else wrong).


Is there a right way to do this?

Charles Hartman

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Re: pull down menu

[xavier . bury]

Mac, Windows?

Which 3D effect? button or the menu itself?

The menu itself, i dont think you can get rid off from within rev. However 
in the winXP/2003 settings, you can
remove the effects, including the shadows and what have you visual gadgets 
that make menus drop
slower than slow via the desktop properties or Display prefs in the 
control panels. So maybe there's a
similar option in osx... 

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com/taoo

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 14:36:35:

> Yeah - I don't know how to do it either :)
> 
> 
> On 10 Nov 2005, at 14:23, Dominik Hruza wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > i just started working with the program designing the interface for 
> > an adressbook
> >
> > i want to get rid of the 3D effect in the menu of a pull down 
> > button, but set a background color and so on to the menu that appears.
> >
> > thanks
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Basic focus issue - solved!

[David Bovill]

on mouseEnter
  set the lockText of me to false
end mouseEnter

on mouseLeave
  set the lockText of me to true
end mouseLeave

on openField
set the backgroundColor of me to red
--pass focusIn
end openField

on focusIn
set the backgroundColor of me to red
--pass focusIn
end focusIn

on focusOut
set the backgroundColor of me to green
--pass focusOut
end focusOut

on closeField
set the backgroundColor of me to green
--pass closeField
end closeField

Not figured out why exactly - but adding the mouseEnter/leave lock/ 
unlock bits - gets you the result you want - editable fields that you  
can handle their appearance as the focus changes.


Just create a new stack - add one plain field - paste the scripts  
above - clone the field as many times as you want. Not tested in  
groups and complex situations - still happy for now.


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Re: pull down menu

[David Bovill]

Yeah - I don't know how to do it either :)


On 10 Nov 2005, at 14:23, Dominik Hruza wrote:


Hello,

i just started working with the program designing the interface for  
an adressbook


i want to get rid of the 3D effect in the menu of a pull down  
button, but set a background color and so on to the menu that appears.


thanks

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pull down menu

[Dominik Hruza]

Hello,

i just started working with the program designing the interface for  
an adressbook


i want to get rid of the 3D effect in the menu of a pull down button,  
but set a background color and so on to the menu that appears.


thanks
.d
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Re: Basic focus issue!

[xavier . bury]

Hi David

You could add a background script handler that you trigger on any focusIn 
to send a focusout
message to the other fields... 

Since you know when focusin or openfield happens, you can easily send the
focus out to that last field recorded (in a global or custom prop...)

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com/taoo

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 13:41:21:

> Not that i am not focussed or anything - just these pesky Rev fields :)
> 
> With the Address Book I am trying to deal really properly with their 
> edibility - click on them and they change appearance (come to the 
> front) click elsewhere and they fade back into the background. The 
> problem with closefield is that it is not sent if the user does not 
> change the text. There are hacks for this - no? What's the best?
> 
> Been trying to get it to work with the following messages - at 
> various places - but having a problems - any solutions out there?
> 
> on focusIn
>  select_Editable true
>-- pass focusIn
> end focusIn
> 
> on openField
>  select_Editable true
>  pass openField
> end openField
> 
> on focusOut
>  select_Editable false
>  pass focusOut
> end focusOut
> 
> on closeField
>  select_Editable false
>  pass closeField
> end closeField
> 
> 
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Basic focus issue!

[David Bovill]

Not that i am not focussed or anything - just these pesky Rev fields :)

With the Address Book I am trying to deal really properly with their  
edibility - click on them and they change appearance (come to the  
front) click elsewhere and they fade back into the background. The  
problem with closefield is that it is not sent if the user does not  
change the text. There are hacks for this - no? What's the best?


Been trying to get it to work with the following messages - at  
various places - but having a problems - any solutions out there?


on focusIn
select_Editable true
  -- pass focusIn
end focusIn

on openField
select_Editable true
pass openField
end openField

on focusOut
select_Editable false
pass focusOut
end focusOut

on closeField
select_Editable false
pass closeField
end closeField


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Re: Synchronization puzzle - take care!

[David Bovill]

On 10 Nov 2005, at 03:03, Alex Tweedly wrote:

Sorry about the problems. I find it's one of the biggest problems  
with Rev's "live IDE" style - it's so hard to ensure that you are  
properly emulating a "cold start".


Not at all - thanks for sharing it!
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RE: Run/Edit mode

[Thornton, John]

Thanks Dan,
I'm off and running now 

 -Original Message-
From:   Dan Shafer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent:   08 November 2005 17:07
To: How to use Revolution
Subject:Re: Run/Edit mode

What event triggers the request for the user to input the  
information? That event appears not to be triggered when you simply  
switch from edit mode to run mode, which would figure because that  
action doesn't trigger an event we usually trap for.

Assuming, e.g., that your stack asks for this information in an  
openStack handler, then after you switch to run mode, type into the  
message box "send 'openStack' to stack 'foo'" (and you can leave out  
the stack if it's the only one in memory or you're certain it's the  
topstack.

All Rev actions occur in response to events. Your stack is being  
polite, waiting for an event before it does anything!


On Nov 8, 2005, at 7:22 AM, Thornton, John wrote:

> Dear People,
> I run Linux Redhat version of Revolution Studio version 2.6.1.   
> When I try to build a stack and cards, the first card is to ask for  
> info from the user.  This works if I save the stack, exit the stack  
> and reload the stack into Revolution and press the Run mode  
> button.  However, I cannot get the damn thing to run from the  
> beginning and ask the user for the required info, simply by  
> switching from Edit mode to Run mode.  Am I missing a vital step,  
> or the switch from Edit mode to Run mode not working properly?
>
> Regards
>
> JohnT
>
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~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[David Bovill]

On 10 Nov 2005, at 00:38, Dan Shafer wrote:

I almost labeled this post off-topic since our purpose here is to  
discuss how to use Revolution. But I decided on balance that it  
affects everyone here, so I left off the [OT].


I've just posted a blog entry at http://www.eclecticity.com/. 
3c66aaec that I believe should be of interest to everyone who is in  
the programming universe today. I've been leaning in this direction  
for years, drawn strongly to it for the past few months, and have  
now tipped over the edge. Some will think I'm over the edge,  
alright, but perhaps not in the way I intended.


My prediction -- based on a lot of evidence and clinched by two  
leaked Microsoft memos that you really need to read (they're  
indirectly linked in my blog entry) -- is that the days of the  
desktop app are indeed finally numbered. At best, we will see  
desktops reduced to being containers for ultra-thin clients and  
specialized Internet browsing tools while *everything else* runs as  
a (probably ad-supported) Web service.


Yeah, I know. You've heard this before. And there's a lot of  
skepticism here and elsewhere on the Net. But Ray Ozzie's no idiot  
and Microsoft's not ignorant or stupid (whatever else they may well  
be).


Comments welcome, though I'd appreciate it if you'd register for my  
blog (it's free) and post them there even if you choose to echo  
them here. This issue is much bigger than Rev but it affects  
everyone on this list, IMNSHO.


Sort of Dan :)

Totally agree about the importance of Web Services - they will take  
all comers by storm over the next 2 years - read my lips :) However,  
as a prediction I am betting (my work at least) that you miss  
something. Web browsers suck - the idea of a universal client that  
can display and present every conceivable user application is daft.  
Standards based web services, using xHTMl, XML, or other even more  
simple to parse data formats - yes. A rich variety of "browsers" =  
clients that use this data and display desktop grade interfaces -  
yes. But standard HTML browser based thin clients - no.


What you will see is more "plugins" for Browsers - the main advantage  
of FireFox. What you will see is many other "browsers" emerging to  
take advantage of these web services - blog tools, outliners, chat  
clients, video browsers. Some may be based on embedded browser  
technology - web toolkits and Mozilla, some written in their own  
languages - python, ruby, java (forget php) - the various languages  
beginning with C. What you will see is more "zero install" clients -  
think java applets and downloadable Rev stacks.


Regarding Revolution - I am sure that a number of us from this list  
are very hopeful that Rev can position itself as a premier tool fro  
creating these clients. To do this - well? Firstly, I'd emphasise  
some things that maybe are not stressed high enough up the request list:


- cross platform video support - think vlc?

- placing Rev in the context of large open source projects -  
think web services and development frameworks.


- a real market for developer community contributed web services  
and zero-instal components - think security, digital signatures and  
certificates, based on an existing open and strong online community  
(you don't build these things overnight - thanks Scott).


- Unicode

The block I have is the issue of JavaScript - can Rev do without a  
Javascript interpreter in this world? You can sort of use the open  
scripting architecture on Macs to script Revolution using Javascript  
- but this is not cross-platform and probably flaky - I only did  
brief testing a couple of years ago... I think the answer is "yes" -  
but maybe it is "no"?

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Re: Repeat for each

[Alex Tweedly]

Marty Knapp wrote:


Alex Tweedly wrote:


Marty Knapp wrote:



I've been tinkering with this a bit and wanted to ask a few more 
questions. Again, my data set is 8 items with all but one being a 
number. I need to be able to select a subset by analysing 1 or more 
of these items. My current data set is approx 128,000 records. When 
I filter the data on the item that contains words, it's pretty fast 
- about 1 second (I have an old Mac G4-single processor 867mgz, and 
running Rev 2.2.1) The speed is exactly the same whether I use the 
above method or just 'filter theData with "*word*"'



That seems terribly slow to me :-)




That's what I thought! Interestingly enough in my repeat for each loop 
I had "set cursor to busy" and that's what was bring this thing to its 
knees. I knew that a progress indicator was a hog, but had no idea 
that this would take such a heavy toll. Searches that were running 5 
minutes now take about 5 seconds. 


Not too surprising - if you want to keep the busy cursor (worth it for a 
5 sec loop, IMHO), I'd put it into a conditional


  add 1 to tBusyCounter
  if tBusyCounter mod 1000 = 0 then set cursor to busy

That still isn't terribly fast - maybe my older computer is to blame? 
Are there any speed improvements between the current version of Rev 
and mine (2.2.1)?


Yes there are some documented ones (e.g. replace char substring with 
another of the same length is dramatically faster than it used to be, I 
believe since 2.2.1).
In this case (with my existing data and code), seems to be no more than 
twice as fast (or half as fast).


(I tested this both with and without "suspend dev tools" in case that 
made a difference)


  filter repeat for
2.2.1 180103  
2.2.1 179104  suspended


2.5   180110 
2.5   179104  suspended


2.6.1  98180 (1)
2.6.1 100400 (2)   suspended

(1) it looks as though filter got some speed improvements, while 
something slowed down the repeat for loop.


(2) I have no clue why suspending dev tools should have a *negative* 
effect on the reported speed.




--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Distribute objects

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Preston Shea  wrote:

> Has anyone got a button script to distribute equally (horizontally or
> vertically) the space between a bunch of selected objects?

There is a button for this in the Inspector that is available by selecting
multiple objects and choosing Align Objects from the inspector's pull-down
menu.  If you need the script for your own project, I believe you can copy
the script out of the inspector (anyone know the official policy on this?).

Alternatively, if you're just looking for a convenient tool for distribution
and alignment, we offer an plugin for this called tm|align -- visit
http://www.tactilemedia.com and select the Media tab.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Slow screen refresh in Windows

[Alex Tweedly]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



  In addition, you might want to consider Photoshop's Save As Web function, 
which gives you fine-grained control over various adjustments, lets you reduce 
the filesize down to pretty much any arbitrary figure, and also lets you 
compare the untouched image to 1-3 different versions with different sets of 
adjustments.


The other advantage of "Save to Web..." compared to simply "Save as ..." 
is that Save to Web will strip out all EXIF data, whereas Save As will 
leave it in. In some cases, that can save you 50k in your file size, for 
no loss of (desired) functionality.


Conversely, don't use Save to Web  just to get smaller versions of 
your own photos, because you'll lose all the interesting, useful info on 
date/time taken, camera settings, WB, focal length, shutter speed, etc.


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Distribute objects

[xavier . bury]

Here's one from GIM, my Geometry Interface Manager library (used in TAOO)
I stripped the non-related statements.

Funny, i had just adjusted it a couple of days earlier ;)

on DistributeWidthsTo objs,tObj
  local t, tdiv, startx, stopx
  put the width of tObj into t
 
put (t-Delta) div (the number of lines in objs) into tdiv
put the left of tObj+Delta into startx
--put 8 into startx
put the right of tObj into stopx

  repeat for each line l in objs
try
  set the width of l to (tdiv - Delta)
  set the left of l to startx
  add tdiv to startx
catch err
  if "taoodebug" is in the stacks then TAOODebugAddLogEntry l & cr & 
err
 else answer "Error in DistributeWidthsTo execution:" && err -- 
replace with answer or put into msg if no taoo debug stack
end try
  end repeat
end DistributeWidthsTo

to use it...

on resizestack
  -- distribute buttons
  put the long name of btn "script" of me & cr & \
  the long name of btn "start" of me & cr & \
  the long name of btn "help" of me & cr & \
  the long name of btn "save" of me & cr & \
  the long name of btn "close" of me into objs
 
  DistributeWidthsTo objs, the long name of me
 end resizestack

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com/taoo


> Has anyone got a button script to distribute equally (horizontally 
> or vertically) the space between a bunch of selected objects? I miss
> this from SuperCard. Thanks.
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dave Cragg]

On 10 Nov 2005, at 06:36, Mark Wieder wrote:


Dan-

Wednesday, November 9, 2005, 4:16:42 PM, you wrote:


There is no necessary connection between where data is and where the
app is. That's just today's temporary model.


That may be true, but according to UNESCO's 3 November report on
Knowledge versus Information Societies 11 percent of the world's
population has access to the internet. And that's not talking about
wired-in broadband connection - this includes dialup and folks who
simply have access to internet cafes and such.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001418/141843e.pdf


But I wonder if the percentage of the world's population who have  
access to a computer is much above the same 11 percent figure. Among  
my own non-computing friends and family members who have or are  
thinking of buying a computer, the "net" is the basic reason they  
need/want one. The point being that we can probably assume that  
computer-access and net-access will come to mean much the same thing.


However, this doesn't mean I support the view that "where the data  
is" is no longer important. That remains to be seen.


Dave

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Distribute objects

[Preston Shea]

Has anyone got a button script to distribute equally (horizontally or 
vertically) the space between a bunch of selected objects? I miss this from 
SuperCard. Thanks.
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Re: The Disappearing Desktop - It's Real This Time

[Dan Shafer]

Thanks for the pointer, Xavier. Some cogent comments in amongst the  
usual /. chaff.


Dan

On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


fuel for the ajax fire ;)

http://books.slashdot.org/books/05/11/09/1555231.shtml?tid=156&tid=6

i particularly liked the comment that said "Good Java programmers use
Python"... ;)

no talk of rev there though... But lots of worthy comments in the
context...
-=-
Xavier Bury

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/11/2005 08:59:04:


Chipp,

Amen!

Judy

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Chipp Walters wrote:


Programs like Claris Impact, Claris CAD, MORE, the old versions of

Flash

which were easy to script, MacWrite, MacPaint and MacDraw. Some of

these
STILL have no equal (imo, mostly thanks to the illegal efforts of  
MS).
That's where one finds productivity gains, in the software and  
what it

can do, not in whether it runs in a browser or on the desktop.


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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be
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are

not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
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