Re: More on Clocks...

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, J. Landman Gay wrote:

>> True, there is no image rotation occurring, but it might contain a small
>> degree of "sexiness"...
> 
> Very nice! So, if you add a windowshape, we'd have a widget, right? ;)

Well, I've always thought about doing this, but the only way to pull it off
without tons of masks is to make a multi-window stack.

OK, twist my arm, I did it -- in your message box:

  go url "http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/ballclock4.rev";

For better visibility, run the stack on a medium to dark value desktop (the
stack won't be very visible against a white background).

OK then... a multi-window widget (kind of).  You can drag the base and it
will reposition all its parts.  Perhaps this accounts for "sexy".

(One limitation I ran into was making the balls visible when the clock stack
is suspended.  The hidePalettes property is apparently still broken [?], and
I couldn't get suspend and resume to reliably change the window modes to
topLevel and back to palette, but hey, what do you want for an hour's
effort?...)

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Revolution Encyclopedia

[J. Landman Gay]

Jerry Muelver wrote:


Is the Encyclopedia better exposed in more recent versions of Revolution?


Unfortunately I don't think it even ships with later versions.

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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: ANN: Remove double spaces--plugin

[Mark Smith]

'The replaceText function is not as fast as the Replace command'

That is certainly true.

in the code below, using the more complicated (in terms of code)  
replace function takes 20ish milliseconds, whereas the replaceText  
version (commented out) takes about 200.




on mouseUp
  repeat 1 -- set up some text with varying numbers of spaces
add 1 to c
put " yyy" into tLine
repeat random(10)
  put space after tLine
end repeat
put "." after tLine
put tLine & cr after tList
  end repeat
  put tList into fld 1

  put fld 1 into tText

  put the millisecs into st
  repeat until doubleSpace = 0
put offset("  ",tText) into doubleSpace
if doubleSpace > 0 then replace "  " with " " in tText
  end repeat
  put the millisecs - st
  put tText into fld 1

--  put the millisecs into st
--  put replaceText(tText," +"," ") into tText
--  put the millisecs - st
--  put tText into fld 1

end mouseUp

Mark
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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[sims]

At 8:52 PM -0200 12/4/05, Andre Garzia wrote:


I still rate my interfaces using the ALSR rating scheme... ALSR 
stands for Almost-Like-Scott-Rossi, for example, when I finished my 
webeditor interface, I looked to it and thought: "I think this one 
is 25% Almost Like Scott Rossi.", I hope to achieve an 50% ALSR 
Interface soon :-)


With Scott presenting at the European Revolution Conference 2006, perhaps you
might get some of his 'secret tips';-)

 sims
EuroRevCon 2006
http://techietours.com

to receive news about this event email:
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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Mark Smith]

Apologies...didn't follow the whole thread.

Mark

On 5 Dec 2005, at 04:17, Bill Marriott wrote:


Mark,

It's not hard to round to integers. The problem is that Rev works with
integers for its rotation algorithm and therefore corrupts the  
graphic in

the process.

Bill

"Mark Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

While I agree that it would be handy if the engine could accept non-
integers for graphic points, a simple function to round a list of   
4000 or
so points to integers took 34 milliseconds on my 1.5Ghz PB   
G4...hardly

onerous in either execution time or coding effort.

Cheers,

Mark



On 5 Dec 2005, at 02:07, Jim Hurley wrote:


Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:16:29 -0500
From: "Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Adventures in Rotation
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

#13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a
better
name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where
revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally   
bugged. (I
suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional   
coordinates?
Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic  
distortion?  If

this
is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to
integers.)



Here, here. I have been promoting fractional coordinates for   
graphic

points for some time. Try the following handler:

on mouseUp
  set the loc of me to 200.6,200.4
  put the loc of me into msg box--reveals 200,200

  set the points of grc 1 to 100,100 & cr & 200.4,200.6
  --There is no evidence of the line graphic
  -- The fractional point is not truncated but interpreted as a   
blank

line.
end mouseUp

RR will accept fractional coordinates for controls (it truncates   
the

coordinates) but it will not accept fractional graphic points.

You don't get an error message and no feedback that the problem   
lines in

the fractional coordinates.

Problems arises when the graphic points are computed; the   
programmer may
not realize that the points are fractional or that  RR will not  
accept
fractional points. Any point with a fractional  coordinate is  
interpreted

as an empty point and therefore a  discontinuity.

It has been a while and I forget the details, but I think there was
support for this change in RR; so far no implementation.

Jim

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Re: ANN: Remove double spaces--plugin

[Jim Ault]

According to the dictionary:
ReplaceText function
Searches for a regular expression and replaces the portions that match the
regular expression.

The replaceText function is not as fast as the Replace command, but is more
flexible because you can search for any text that matches a regular
expression.

Replace command:
Replaces text in a container with other text.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 12/4/05 8:21 PM, "Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Stupid question: How does rev know to process that as a regex as opposed to
> the literal " +"?
> 
> "Jim Ault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Another approach is to use :
>> 
>> put replaceText(fld storyline," +"," ") into fld storyline
> 
> 
> 
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Re: ANN: Remove double spaces--plugin

[Bill Marriott]

Stupid question: How does rev know to process that as a regex as opposed to 
the literal " +"?

"Jim Ault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in 
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Another approach is to use :
>
> put replaceText(fld storyline," +"," ") into fld storyline



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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Bill Marriott]

Mark,

It's not hard to round to integers. The problem is that Rev works with 
integers for its rotation algorithm and therefore corrupts the graphic in 
the process.

Bill

"Mark Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> While I agree that it would be handy if the engine could accept non- 
> integers for graphic points, a simple function to round a list of  4000 or 
> so points to integers took 34 milliseconds on my 1.5Ghz PB  G4...hardly 
> onerous in either execution time or coding effort.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 5 Dec 2005, at 02:07, Jim Hurley wrote:
>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:16:29 -0500
>>> From: "Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: Adventures in Rotation
>>> To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>> #13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a 
>>> better
>>> name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where
>>> revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally  bugged. (I
>>> suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional  coordinates?
>>> Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic distortion?  If 
>>> this
>>> is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to 
>>> integers.)
>>
>>
>> Here, here. I have been promoting fractional coordinates for  graphic 
>> points for some time. Try the following handler:
>>
>> on mouseUp
>>   set the loc of me to 200.6,200.4
>>   put the loc of me into msg box--reveals 200,200
>>
>>   set the points of grc 1 to 100,100 & cr & 200.4,200.6
>>   --There is no evidence of the line graphic
>>   -- The fractional point is not truncated but interpreted as a  blank 
>> line.
>> end mouseUp
>>
>> RR will accept fractional coordinates for controls (it truncates  the 
>> coordinates) but it will not accept fractional graphic points.
>>
>> You don't get an error message and no feedback that the problem  lines in 
>> the fractional coordinates.
>>
>> Problems arises when the graphic points are computed; the  programmer may 
>> not realize that the points are fractional or that  RR will not accept 
>> fractional points. Any point with a fractional  coordinate is interpreted 
>> as an empty point and therefore a  discontinuity.
>>
>> It has been a while and I forget the details, but I think there was 
>> support for this change in RR; so far no implementation.
>>
>> Jim
>>
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Re: ANN: Remove double spaces--plugin

[Jim Ault]

> It will replace doubles spaces in a text field with single spaces
> without affecting the formatting.

Another approach is to use :

put replaceText(fld storyline," +"," ") into fld storyline

which is the regular expression that replaces all runs of spaces with a
single space.  The " +" says 'one or more spaces'
Further... automation is possible for any field when it is closed.
Simply add to a stack script, back script, or stack in use stack script

on closefield
  if word 1 of the target is "field"  then
put replaceText(target," +"," ") into target
  end if
  pass closefield
end closefield

HTIAUAAYSHOI
Jim Ault
Las Vegas
(hope this is as useful as anything you've seen, heard or imagined  :-)

On 12/4/05 6:27 PM, "Jim Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe it's just me. Maybe I  have a heavy thumb, but I  always get a
> number of  multiple spaces in my  text.
> 
> (Witness the above line.)
> 
> Hence the following VERY simple plugin--in the message box:
> 
> go stack url "http://home.infostations.net/jhurley/RemoveDoubles.rev";
> 
> It will replace doubles spaces in a text field with single spaces
> without affecting the formatting.
> 
> Jim
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Re: More on Clocks...

[Richard Gaskin]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

Scott Rossi wrote:


  go url "http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/ballclock2.rev";

True, there is no image rotation occurring, but it might contain a small
degree of "sexiness"...



Very nice! So, if you add a windowshape, we'd have a widget, right? ;)


And translucence. Once it's transparent enough that it can no longer be 
read clealy, it's ready to be an official "widget". ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[J. Landman Gay]

Bill Marriott wrote:

Now I thought ... hey what about using a "graphic?" That is what Revolution 
calls objects created with its built-in tools for simple vector objects. 
I'll use one of those.


Attempt 3: rotate a rectangle




You need to set the points of the graphic. The most amazing things can 
be done with graphics with this method. Geoff Canyon, of this list, made 
a whole animated shoot-out game using a *single* graphic.


You really should go look up the clock threads in the archives. It's a 
common project. Someone sent me a clock they made a couple of years ago 
that was just gorgous, doing exactly what you describe. I can't share 
it, as it isn't mine and it was a private exchange. If he's still on the 
list, maybe he'll respond.


Look at some of these in the mean time, there are probably some pointers:



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Chipp Walters]

Richard Gaskin wrote:

Sexy interfaces isn't something that comes from the runtime tool; it 
comes from talent applied to a graphics tool.


100% correct, and with RR's deep mask features, I think you can create 
just about any widget you'd want to.


In fact, if memory serves me correct, Arlo (Konfab founder and previous 
Apple Interface guy) is one of the few who can create 'super' 
interfaces. I've taken them apart, and they're all based on PNG's with 
alpha channels.


If you'd like to learn more about how to create slick looking interface 
widgets in Photoshop, you might check out some tutorials at my website: 
www.chipp.com


-Chipp

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Re: More on Clocks...

[J. Landman Gay]

Scott Rossi wrote:


  go url "http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/ballclock2.rev";

True, there is no image rotation occurring, but it might contain a small
degree of "sexiness"...


Very nice! So, if you add a windowshape, we'd have a widget, right? ;)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Mark Smith]

While I agree that it would be handy if the engine could accept non- 
integers for graphic points, a simple function to round a list of  
4000 or so points to integers took 34 milliseconds on my 1.5Ghz PB  
G4...hardly onerous in either execution time or coding effort.


Cheers,

Mark



On 5 Dec 2005, at 02:07, Jim Hurley wrote:


Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:16:29 -0500
From: "Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Adventures in Rotation
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

#13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a  
better

name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where
revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally  
bugged. (I
suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional  
coordinates?
Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic distortion?  
If this
is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to  
integers.)



Here, here. I have been promoting fractional coordinates for  
graphic points for some time. Try the following handler:


on mouseUp
  set the loc of me to 200.6,200.4
  put the loc of me into msg box--reveals 200,200

  set the points of grc 1 to 100,100 & cr & 200.4,200.6
  --There is no evidence of the line graphic
  -- The fractional point is not truncated but interpreted as a  
blank line.

end mouseUp

RR will accept fractional coordinates for controls (it truncates  
the coordinates) but it will not accept fractional graphic points.


You don't get an error message and no feedback that the problem  
lines in the fractional coordinates.


Problems arises when the graphic points are computed; the  
programmer may  not realize that the points are fractional or that  
RR will not accept  fractional points. Any point with a fractional  
coordinate is interpreted as an empty point and therefore a  
discontinuity.


It has been a while and I forget the details, but I think there was  
support for this change in RR; so far no implementation.


Jim

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ANN: Remove double spaces--plugin

[Jim Hurley]

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I  have a heavy thumb, but I  always get a 
number of  multiple spaces in my  text.


(Witness the above line.)

Hence the following VERY simple plugin--in the message box:

go stack url "http://home.infostations.net/jhurley/RemoveDoubles.rev";

It will replace doubles spaces in a text field with single spaces 
without affecting the formatting.


Jim
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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Jim Hurley]

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:16:29 -0500
From: "Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Adventures in Rotation
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

#13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a better
name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where
revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally bugged. (I
suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional coordinates?
Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic distortion? If this
is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to integers.)



Here, here. I have been promoting fractional coordinates for graphic 
points for some time. Try the following handler:


on mouseUp
  set the loc of me to 200.6,200.4
  put the loc of me into msg box--reveals 200,200

  set the points of grc 1 to 100,100 & cr & 200.4,200.6
  --There is no evidence of the line graphic
  -- The fractional point is not truncated but interpreted as a blank line.
end mouseUp

RR will accept fractional coordinates for controls (it truncates the 
coordinates) but it will not accept fractional graphic points.


You don't get an error message and no feedback that the problem lines 
in the fractional coordinates.


Problems arises when the graphic points are computed; the programmer 
may  not realize that the points are fractional or that RR will not 
accept  fractional points. Any point with a fractional coordinate is 
interpreted as an empty point and therefore a discontinuity.


It has been a while and I forget the details, but I think there was 
support for this change in RR; so far no implementation.


Jim

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[ANN] libBitwise 1.0.0 Released (short ;-)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Sean Shao wrote:
> I've finally finished working on the 
> bitwise math operators and have them
> working 100% (hopefully). 

Extraordinary, Sean!
You are brilliant. :-)

> The library (libBitwise) allows you 
> to do bitwise operations on 32-bit 
> signed integers. It's fast because 
> it uses the built-in bit commands
> (no more bit-by-bit calculations) 
> and some math checks.

This work is a great example of
Patience and Persistence.
The keys for wisdom. :-)

Thanks a lot for sharing
your work with all us!

al

Visit my site:
http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/



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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

Richard,

> I maintain links to the Human Interface Guidelines for most popular 
> operating systems on the top-right of this page:
> 

This is a great resource and what an incredible service to put it together! 
Having said that, there are nearly 30 links there. :) This provides evidence 
for a few points:

1) HIG is what you make it.
2) No one agrees what constitutes correct HIG.
3) HIGs change over time.
4) Appropriate HIGs vary depending on the context.

> When I wrote about making "HIG-compliant apps", oddly enough I was 
> referring to apps.  You know -- menu bar, documents, About box, etc. That 
> stuff.

Is Revolution more appropriate than K. for constructing a full-blown app? 
*Definitely.* Is K. "better" than Revolution? No, I'm not saying that at 
all. Does K. make it easier to create these little widgets that look so 
sleek and sexy? Probably. Do those little apps themselves follow a usable 
HIG convention? Yes, I think they do. Am I trying to start a K vs Rev war? 
Absolutely not. Can Rev create an stack that looks and feels like the K. 
clock widget <200K? I don't think it is possible.

> Fortunately that wasn't the core question, which was much simpler:
>
> To what degree would RR making it easier to import images from Photoshop 
> into Rev help its market adoption?
>
> Considering that relatively few application categories benefit from the 
> novelty single-window translucent whizbangness that distinguishes 
> widgets/gadgets from the rest of the world's software categories, and 
> coupled with the sober recognition that importing graphics isn't the hard 
> part of producing such UIs, I'm not sure it would make much difference in 
> the big picture.

No that wasn't the core question. The core *statement* was a belief that 
these widgets have a modern look-and-feel distinct from stacks created with 
Rev, which is the main reason why they get attention from companies like 
Yahoo.

> 1) About five to seven years behind the curve in UI. The reason why 
> programs like "Konfabulator" get the attention is that they create 
> widgets/programs that look modern/exciting, almost "by default." The same 
> look-and-feel can be created with RunRev, but it's a lot more difficult.

Did the "aqua" look help the Mac deliver better business productivity 
software? Is a scrolling, dockable expanding whatchamacallit at the bottom 
of the screen deliver superior *functionality* than the Windows Start menu? 
Not really. But it's part of the cachet of using a Macintosh. It makes users 
feel like they are using cutting edge technology.

An development environment that could not create apps to match this look 
would not be very appealing, as the products would look "long in the tooth" 
and users would not adopt them. As proof of this, consider when Rev finally 
was able to present standard buttons that looked like true Windows XP 
buttons. This was a big deal and made a lot of people happy.

It isn't a widgets/app question anyway. Interfaces are growing more 
sophisticated and complex. Distinctions are blurring in the user's mind 
between what is online or offline, what is a widget vs. an app, what goes in 
the system tray vs. what sits on your desktop, etc. Modern apps are not 
monoliths anymore. They have little bits and pieces accessible from all over 
the place.

You're entitled to your view but my take is such things matter a heckuva 
lot. Consumers want programs they can almost "touch" with reflections, 
depth, animation, transparency. Stuff Rev needs to catch up with in my 
opinion. And developers want environments that help them accomplish this.

> If you feel strongly that it might you can put that to the test in under 
> an hour:
>
> Write the import script and post it somewhere.  If Rev takes off like 
> wildfire from that we'll know it was a great idea, and Rev can pay you 
> handsomely for that hour's work.  :)

I'm afraid my skills would not allow me to complete this task in an hour or 
even a week. Honestly, I think you're minimizing the amount of work that 
went into that for K. as well. It's just not easy. The results are amazing. 
Furthermore, even were I to write such a utility, it would not be as useful 
in Rev as it is in K. I know this because I imported the folder of PNGs from 
the K. clock and used the XML file generated by K. for the clock to apply 
all the names and properties of the objects in Rev. (Yes, via a script.) 
This shortened the work as much as possible. But I could simply not 
manipulate the graphics in Rev as fluidly as the JavaScript libraries in K. 
did. They achieved amazing results.

> Photoshop output can be used in any app (as can output from Fireworks, 
> which is arguably superior for making UIs since it was designed for that 
> task from the ground up rather than morphed into it through accidents of 
> history), regardless whether the language that drives the app is C++, 
> Java, HTML, or Transcript.

That's not the point, either

Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Bill,

Many developers had published handlers
for rotating vector poligonal graphics.

You could find handlers to rotate
vector polygonal graphic using arrays
in my website:


These functions are included too in the BETA stack 
penTool v0.3.2.d


You are right, about keeping the fractional 
numbers while rotating, moving
fliping, skewing or scaling vector graphics.

in the BETA stack penTool, i use
custom properties in the vector graphic to 
store this information.

Look for the custom properties named 
bPoints and cPoints.

Have a nice day!

al

Visit my site:
http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/

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More on Clocks...

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Bill Marriott wrote:

> I do sincerely hope that Rev substantially advances the capabilities
> regarding graphics handling (and other areas) so there is no question that
> Rev is the ultimate multimedia authoring tool.

A hope shared by many, including myself.

In the meantime, if you haven't dug it up already, you can pick apart a
sample.  Execute the following in your message box:

  go url "http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/ballclock2.rev";

True, there is no image rotation occurring, but it might contain a small
degree of "sexiness"...

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
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Re: Adventures in Rotation

[Alex Tweedly]

Bill Marriott wrote:

Ok, as our regular viewers know, I'm trying to mimic with Rev a pretty 
little clock distributed with Konfabulator. The way K. does this clock is to 
create little PNGs for each of the elements (second hand, minute hand, rim, 
background), package them up in XML, and animate (rotate) them in 
JavaScript.


Attempt 4 (revised): revRotatePoly an irregular polygon

So, I drew myself a pretty minute hand and then wrote a script.

Code used:

on mouseUp
   repeat with i = 1 to 360
   revRotatePoly the long ID of graphic "minuteHand",1
   wait for 50 milliseconds
   end repeat
end mouseUp

(I know the "wait for" method was not what I was going to use in my eventual 
stack, for performance reasons, but I just wanted to test out spinning it.)


Well, running this script was a shocker. It had the effect of crumpling my 
pretty minute hand into a little ball. If you'd like to see what happens, go 
to revOnline under my space, "MerryOtter" -- the stack is, "Fun with 
revRotatePoly"


 

I rather like that effect - though it certainly shouldn't be called 
"rotate" :-)


My clock hand *is* pretty fancy, it's got 56 points. But the same thing 
happens with graphics of only 3 points. Open the stack and try the simplest 
kind of clock hand you could imagine with


 



#13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a better 
name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where 
revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally bugged. (I 
suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional coordinates? 
Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic distortion? If this 
is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to integers.)


 

I think your suspicion is entirely correct. I think it would be 
generally very helpful if Rev would allow non-integer co-ords in the 
points list, and simply round to integers before drawing.


I change the code to


put the points of grc "minuteHand" into tPoints
repeat with i = 1 to 360
set the lockScreen to true
set the points of grc "minuteHand" to tPoints 
revRotatePoly the long ID of graphic "minuteHand", i-- 
note the change from "1" to "i" here

set the lockScreen to false
set the thumbposition of scrollbar "spinProgress" to i
wait for 50 milliseconds
end repeat


and it now does what it's intended to do. Though I really dislike what 
it's intended to do - rotate the object, then translate it so as to keep 
the top left of the bounding rectangle of the rotated shape the same.


We had a thread on rotating polygons back in March (to save you cracking 
out the trig books), here is the code modified to use the rotate handler 
I suggested then. Note this is written to emphasize readability rather 
than performance - could probably be made faster if needed.



on mouseUp
  put the points of grc "minuteHand" into tPoints
  repeat with i = 1 to 360
set the lockScreen to true
set the points of grc "minuteHand" to tPoints 
myRotatePoly the name of grc "minuteHand", i, 0, 24

-- revRotatePoly the long ID of graphic "minuteHand", i
set the lockScreen to false
set the thumbposition of scrollbar "spinProgress" to i
wait for 50 milliseconds with messages
  end repeat
  set the points of grc "minuteHand" to tPoints 
end mouseUp


on myRotatePoly pGraphic, pAngle, basex, basey
put the topLeft of pGraphic into tTopLeft
put myPoints(pGraphic, basex, basey) into tPoints-- returns 
the list of points, relative to the base point

put the loc of pGraphic into tLoc
put sin(pAngle * (pi / 180)) into tSinAngle
put cos(pAngle * (pi / 180)) into tCosAngle
put (number of items of tPoints) div 2 into tNumItems
repeat with i = 1 to tNumItems
put (item (i + (i - 1)) of tPoints) into tCurrentH -- + item 1 
of the center
put (item (i + i) of tPoints) into tCurrentV -- + item 2 of 
the center
put trunc((tCosAngle * tCurrentH) - (tSinAngle * tCurrentV)) 
into tTempH
put trunc((tSinAngle * tCurrentH) + (tCosAngle * tCurrentV)) 
into tTempV
put tTempH + basex into tCurrentH -- and add back the base 
x and y

put tTempV + basey into tCurrentV
put tCurrentH,tCurrentV & comma after tFinalPoints
end repeat
delete last char of tFinalPoints
set the points of pGraphic to tFinalPoints
end myRotatePoly

function myPoints pGraphic, basex, basey
put the number of lines in the points of pGraphic into tNumPoints
put empty into tResult
put the points of pGraphic into tPoints
put basex into tStartlH
put basey into tStartV
 
replace cr with comma in tPoints

if last char of tPoints is comma then delete last char of tPoints
repeat with i = 1 to tNumPoints
put (item (i + (i - 1)) of tPoints) - tStartlH into tCurrentH
put (item (i + i) of tPoints) - tStartV into tCurrentV
put tC

Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Richard Gaskin]

Bill Marriott wrote:

These are excellent recommendations.

Of course, there is no audience out there waiting for a Revolution-based 
desktop clock. This whole exercise was to honestly answer the question posed 
originally (by Richard Gaskin I believe) related to why I thought it was 
hard to do stuff like this in Rev, and what does K. do to make it easy. I 
hope the question is answered.


Yes, as it relates to the very small subset of widgets/gadgets which
rely on the rotate command.

In my widget collection (fewer than two dozen, as I think Dahsboard is a
waste of Apple's resources), only one uses the rotate command.

In nearly a decade of making my living with the Rev engine, I've never
been unable to pay my rent because I couln't rotate an image more
gracefully.


Think of it visually:


#of things you can make in Rev:

|-|


# of things people make that work well as translucent single-window 
novelties:


||


# of those widget/gadget-like things that rely on image rotation:

|.|


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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

These are excellent recommendations.

Of course, there is no audience out there waiting for a Revolution-based 
desktop clock. This whole exercise was to honestly answer the question posed 
originally (by Richard Gaskin I believe) related to why I thought it was 
hard to do stuff like this in Rev, and what does K. do to make it easy. I 
hope the question is answered.

While I will look at the archive for some other clock examples in Rev, I 
don't know if I'm going to take this experiment much further. It's clear 
that Rev isn't designed for this kind of thing (to put it charitably).

I have to say that Rev is awesome for the things I use it for -- processing 
data that doesn't lend itself to spreadsheets or databases, creating 
utilities I can distribute as EXEs, and applications that need to look like 
Windows. Your gallery also proves that impressive visual feats can 
DEFINITELY be accomplished with Rev.

But I do sincerely hope that Rev substantially advances the capabilities 
regarding graphics handling (and other areas) so there is no question that 
Rev is the ultimate multimedia authoring tool.

Bill


"Scott Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in 
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Recently, Bill Marriott wrote:
>
>>> As far as your clock app goes, I would look at creating the various
>>> positions of the hands as antialiased bitmaps outside of Rev since, as 
>>> you
>>> discovered, image rotation is not as good as it should be.  The import 
>>> the
>>> images, and use a button to serve as a "display" for the images, but
>>> setting
>>> the icon of the button to appropriate image at the right time:
>>
>> The "frames" method of animating the hands did occur to me, but I wasn't 
>> yet
>> up to the task of creating 180 images (60 each for hours, minutes, and
>> seconds). Plus this would result is a huge distro -- like 500K or more 
>> just
>> for those pictures.
>
> Admittedly, it is more work than rotating a bitmap.  But along the lines 
> of
> a well known computer company that once encouraged people to think
> different, I would suggest you "think real world".  Nobody is going to sit
> in front of your cock for a solid hour to determine whether or not your
> minute/hour hands move precisely 1 degree for every segment of time the
> elapses.  For smooth motion, it's probably worth creating 59 frames for 
> the
> second hand, but the other hands will not require 60 frames each for real
> world use (unless maybe your app is going to run at 800 x 800 resolution).
> Go with a smaller number of frames for the minutes, and especially hours,
> and I think you'll be able to achieve a decent appearance.
>
>
>> Also, I think a really nice aspect of the K. clock is that you can set 
>> the
>> color of the face and the rim to anything you like. Even sexier, the rest 
>> of
>> the UI elements adapt. If you pick a "dark" background, the hands and 
>> date
>> display switch to complementary tints.
>>
>> Poking through the JavaScript supplied with the K. clock, I see the 
>> author
>> accomplishes this with a "colorize" command applied to the PNG image. I
>> think I can colorize in Rev, but this is only possible by using a 
>> blending
>> mode in combination with another object. In other words, if I have a 50%
>> grey PNG of the hands, to make them green I have to put a green object
>> "behind" the hands and set the appropriate blend style.
>>
>> Am I right about this, or is there a way of colorizing an object 
>> directly?
>
> Two answers:
>
> 1) You can colorize images programmatically by script, manipulating
> imageData and alphaData properties.  Ken Ray has the technical details of
> image/alphaData on his site .  You could
> create a square solid colored image object with a "virtual" minute hand, 
> for
> example, that is created by applying alphaData transparency to the image.
> So instead of updating the image itself every minute or so, you update the
> image's alphaData.
>
> 2) Somewhat like what you surmise above, another way to colorize the clock
> face is to separate out the "effects" of your face art (hilites, bevels,
> shadows, etc) as overlay/s, in translucent PNG format.  Then in Rev, use 
> an
> oval graphic as the base of the clock face and overlay the separate effect
> image/s on top of the graphic.  You can then adjust the backCcolor of the
> graphic by script.  You will wind up with a clock face that can be
> quickly/simply colorized to any color while keeping your effects intact.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
> -
> E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> W: http://www.tactilemedia.com
>
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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Richard Gaskin]

Bill Marriott wrote:

Depends. What HIG specification are you wanting to follow? (link please.)


I maintain links to the Human Interface Guidelines for most popular 
operating systems on the top-right of this page:




I'm sure we could find portions where Rev deviates from it. 


No doubt.  I have a list.  They're there, but they're also relatively 
minor.  For example, both Rev and my apps made with it have gotten 
4-mouse reviews in MacWorld, where HIG conformance is a factor.



There's nothing I know of in K. that would prevent one from
creating an HIG-compliant widget.


Probably not, but making an individual widget isn't what I was talking 
about.


When I wrote about making "HIG-compliant apps", oddly enough I was 
regerring to apps.  You know -- menu bar, documents, About box, etc. 
That stuff.


You can made widgets/gadgets in Rev.  Some of us have been doing that 
for years.  But I don't think you can make complete applications in any 
of these widget/gadget environments.  I don't believe you even have 
access to any local file I/O, nor the menu bar nor scrolling document 
windows nor


That's where the apples/oranges comes in:

As an engine that works in a relatively small subset of the things that 
can be done on a computer, Konfab and the other widget/gadget engines 
handle that task with greater depth than a more general purpose 
development system like Rev.


But on the flipside, Rev's greater breadth in supporting development 
across a broader range of software categories gives it a value that 
isn't matched by the widget/gadget stuff.


Is one better than another?

I hate getting into qualitative arguments like that, as they're mostly 
subjective ("what is 'best'?").


Fortunately that wasn't the core question, which was much simpler:

To what degree would RR making it easier to import images from Photoshop 
into Rev help its market adoption?


Considering that relatively few application categories benefit from the 
novelty single-window translucent whizbangness that distinguishes 
widgets/gadgets from the rest of the world's software categories, and 
coupled with the sober recognition that importing graphics isn't the 
hard part of producing such UIs, I'm not sure it would make much 
difference in the big picture.


If you feel strongly that it might you can put that to the test in under 
an hour:


Write the import script and post it somewhere.  If Rev takes off like 
wildfire from that we'll know it was a great idea, and Rev can pay you 
handsomely for that hour's work.  :)


Sexy interfaces isn't something that comes from the runtime tool; it 
comes from talent applied to a graphics tool.


Photoshop output can be used in any app (as can output from Fireworks, 
which is arguably superior for making UIs since it was designed for that 
task from the ground up rather than morphed into it through accidents of 
history), regardless whether the language that drives the app is C++, 
Java, HTML, or Transcript.


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Adventures in Rotation

[Bill Marriott]

Ok, as our regular viewers know, I'm trying to mimic with Rev a pretty 
little clock distributed with Konfabulator. The way K. does this clock is to 
create little PNGs for each of the elements (second hand, minute hand, rim, 
background), package them up in XML, and animate (rotate) them in 
JavaScript.

I decided to start by writing a stack to rotate a clock hand 360 degrees 
around.

Our story thus far:

Attempt 1: "rotate" a PNG
Code used: rotate image "hourHand" by -30
Result: Obliterates the image. Gets progressively slower. Eats up more than 
512MB RAM.

Attempt 2: set the "angle" of the PNG
Code used: set the angle of image "hourHand" to the angle of image 
"hourHand" - 30
Result: ugly jaggies at non-orthogonal angles. Slow. Can't set origin of 
rotation.

The only way I'll be able to employ a bitmap graphic for the hands is to 
flip through sequential frames in which the hand is prepositioned at the 
correct angle.

Now I thought ... hey what about using a "graphic?" That is what Revolution 
calls objects created with its built-in tools for simple vector objects. 
I'll use one of those.

Attempt 3: rotate a rectangle

The "seconds" hand in the K. clock is a simple, red line. So I made a new 
stack and drew a 200 wide x 4 high rectangle, then set the fill to red. Then 
I used the message box.

Code used: set the angle of graphic 1 to 30

Result: Nothing happened. I researched this in the help file and discovered:

"A regular polygon can be rotated between zero and 360°. Increasing the 
angleInDegrees rotates the polygon clockwise. You can specify the angle of a 
graphic that is not a regular polygon, but it has no effect on the graphic's 
appearance."

A rectangle is not a regular polygon. In fact, not even a perfect square 
drawn with the rectangle tool is considered a "regular polygon" (even though 
it is). It has to be an object *drawn* with the regular polygon tool, or 
more precisely, a graphic with the style/type set to "Regular Polygon."

Attempt 4: revRotatePoly a rectangle

I noticed under the "see also" section an interesting command, 
"revRotatePoly" and thought perhaps this is what I am looking for. Browsing 
to this page in help I read I can,

"Use the revRotatePoly command to rotate a line, curve, or irregular polygon 
graphic."

But not a rectangle. But, no problem. I'll just make my minute hand with the 
freehand polygon tool. I wanted to make a fancy-looking minute hand anyway.

Attempt 4 (revised): revRotatePoly an irregular polygon

So, I drew myself a pretty minute hand and then wrote a script.

Code used:

on mouseUp
repeat with i = 1 to 360
revRotatePoly the long ID of graphic "minuteHand",1
wait for 50 milliseconds
end repeat
end mouseUp

(I know the "wait for" method was not what I was going to use in my eventual 
stack, for performance reasons, but I just wanted to test out spinning it.)

Well, running this script was a shocker. It had the effect of crumpling my 
pretty minute hand into a little ball. If you'd like to see what happens, go 
to revOnline under my space, "MerryOtter" -- the stack is, "Fun with 
revRotatePoly"

My clock hand *is* pretty fancy, it's got 56 points. But the same thing 
happens with graphics of only 3 points. Open the stack and try the simplest 
kind of clock hand you could imagine with

100,10
300,20
100,30

in the coordinate list, then click "Reset."



So, this simple experiment touches on a few issues from my original post:

#4) 3D support. I guess we shouldn't expect 3D support when 2D is still not 
really there!

#10) Graphics support. I honestly haven't tried to do much with graphics in 
Rev in a long time. I see that things really are still quite limited, at 
least with respect to rotation. :) Both bitmaps and "objects" are not 
handled well.

#13) General flakiness. I would definitely say revCrumplePoly is a better 
name for the revRotatePoly command. Is there any situation where 
revRotatePoly could be useful? Not if it does this. Totally bugged. (I 
suspect the reason why is that Rev doesn't have fractional coordinates? 
Could such a limitation really result in such dramatic distortion? If this 
is the case, then Rev should store fractionals, but render to integers.)

#14) Advancing HyperTalk. Why do we need three mutually exclusive methods of 
manipulating rotation (rotate command, angle property, reRotatePoly) each 
with different limitations, none able to turn a simple rectangle reliably, 
and none working particularly well at what they do? We need a rotate command 
(to turn something) and an angle properly (to inspect or directly set a 
particular angle). They should work on almost all objects (certainly images 
and graphics, ideally fields [at least at 90 degrees], and potentially other 
elements).

Bill





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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Bill Marriott wrote:

>> As far as your clock app goes, I would look at creating the various
>> positions of the hands as antialiased bitmaps outside of Rev since, as you
>> discovered, image rotation is not as good as it should be.  The import the
>> images, and use a button to serve as a "display" for the images, but
>> setting
>> the icon of the button to appropriate image at the right time:
> 
> The "frames" method of animating the hands did occur to me, but I wasn't yet
> up to the task of creating 180 images (60 each for hours, minutes, and
> seconds). Plus this would result is a huge distro -- like 500K or more just
> for those pictures.

Admittedly, it is more work than rotating a bitmap.  But along the lines of
a well known computer company that once encouraged people to think
different, I would suggest you "think real world".  Nobody is going to sit
in front of your cock for a solid hour to determine whether or not your
minute/hour hands move precisely 1 degree for every segment of time the
elapses.  For smooth motion, it's probably worth creating 59 frames for the
second hand, but the other hands will not require 60 frames each for real
world use (unless maybe your app is going to run at 800 x 800 resolution).
Go with a smaller number of frames for the minutes, and especially hours,
and I think you'll be able to achieve a decent appearance.


> Also, I think a really nice aspect of the K. clock is that you can set the
> color of the face and the rim to anything you like. Even sexier, the rest of
> the UI elements adapt. If you pick a "dark" background, the hands and date
> display switch to complementary tints.
> 
> Poking through the JavaScript supplied with the K. clock, I see the author
> accomplishes this with a "colorize" command applied to the PNG image. I
> think I can colorize in Rev, but this is only possible by using a blending
> mode in combination with another object. In other words, if I have a 50%
> grey PNG of the hands, to make them green I have to put a green object
> "behind" the hands and set the appropriate blend style.
> 
> Am I right about this, or is there a way of colorizing an object directly?

Two answers:

1) You can colorize images programmatically by script, manipulating
imageData and alphaData properties.  Ken Ray has the technical details of
image/alphaData on his site .  You could
create a square solid colored image object with a "virtual" minute hand, for
example, that is created by applying alphaData transparency to the image.
So instead of updating the image itself every minute or so, you update the
image's alphaData.

2) Somewhat like what you surmise above, another way to colorize the clock
face is to separate out the "effects" of your face art (hilites, bevels,
shadows, etc) as overlay/s, in translucent PNG format.  Then in Rev, use an
oval graphic as the base of the clock face and overlay the separate effect
image/s on top of the graphic.  You can then adjust the backCcolor of the
graphic by script.  You will wind up with a clock face that can be
quickly/simply colorized to any color while keeping your effects intact.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Visual Logic

[Janus Jakaterina]

Richard, Greg, et alia

Most visual languages use flow charts or tiles. Some
are good, some bad, and some ugly. Examples:

http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/demo/ar-fg1.gif

http://datapixel.net/software/adjuvant/images/helixtiles490x390.gif

Frankly, I’ve seen much better. Consider the following
in a textual language: 

int sum = 0; 
for (i=0; ihttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pane/HANDSOverview.jpg

HANDS has collision detection and OOP classes (Tulip
is a flower; Rose is a flower). Sample code:

Set the nectar of all flowers to 0

It has a built in visual parser with prompts to aid
rapid coding. The result is very simple, astonishingly
powerful logic.

When any bee collides into any flower
Subtract 1 from the flower’s nectar
Add 1 to the bee’s nectar
Beep
End when

Please take a look at John Pane’s thesis 
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pane/ftp/PaneThesis.pdf

Now picture this development environment powered with
Transcript. The Revolution goes visual.

In my experience as a teacher, kids grasp clear speech
as well or better than a picture if that speech is
familiar and descriptive.

---

Janus: (pronounced JAY nus), not Janice; god of gates
and doorways; two faces viewing opposite directions;
root of the word “January”; sixth of Saturn’s
satellites.




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Revolution Encyclopedia

[Jerry Muelver]

I just, a couple of minutes ago, stumbled into the Revolution Encyclopedia 
in the Rev 2.2.1 Help files. "Stumbled"... STUMBLED!... by following a "See 
Also" link in a Transcript Language Dictionary topic.


This is too seminal a reference source to be buried in a "when we think you 
are ready for it" link. There should be a menu entry under "Help" for the 
encyclopedia. While I am delighted to have found this little Easter egg, and 
will now throw out all my scripts for my first application and rewrite them 
to take advantage of the wealth of information and insight contained in the 
encyclopedia, I am still mildly torqued to have missed it these first three 
weeks of my Revolution programming career. I'll get over it when I take the 
time to admire my rewritten scripts, I'm sure.


Is the Encyclopedia better exposed in more recent versions of Revolution?

 Jerry Muelver 


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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Andre Garzia]

On Dec 4, 2005, at 8:34 PM, Bill Marriott wrote:



Yes, I've been to your site before and your stuff looks utterly  
fantastic!


Bill



I still rate my interfaces using the ALSR rating scheme... ALSR  
stands for Almost-Like-Scott-Rossi, for example, when I finished my  
webeditor interface, I looked to it and thought: "I think this one is  
25% Almost Like Scott Rossi.", I hope to achieve an 50% ALSR  
Interface soon :-)


Cheers
andre

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Björnke von Gierke]

On Dec 04 2005, at 23:34, Bill Marriott wrote:

Am I right about this, or is there a way of colorizing an object 
directly?


you can fumble with the imageData of an image. first you need to decode 
the existing data, then enconde your changed data, and set the image to 
the changed imageData.


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Re: Saving data to stacks via CGI

[Björnke von Gierke]

Unfair asking for my help explicitly ;-)

The ChatRev server is no CGI, it's a plain RunRev stack. It does not 
have the ability for simultaneous writes, as every message the server 
receives is handled in one instance (not threaded). Of course you could 
make it more complex, so that such situations could happen, but right 
now the server is like a single handler, not like several different 
handlers.
CGI however have for each access it's own instance, thus they can 
easily overwrite a shared resource, like a stack. To prohibit that, you 
should try to manage the access. For example you could have each of 
your CGI's save a little file named "prohibited".If that file already 
exists, then your CGI's should abort the writing to the stack process, 
or retry it later. Of course you'd need to delete the file after 
writing the information into your stack.


I hope this gives you some idea how to handle multithreaded write 
access to a stack.


greetings
Björnke

On Dec 04 2005, at 23:08, Alejandro Tejada wrote:


...
Pierre Sahores and Bjorke had a lot of experience in
this
area, so maybe they could answer too.

...

Bjorke manages the RevChat server, so he know what
happens when multiple users try to post messages at
the same time. Did they get queued in some arbitrary
order? or Some of them get lost in the transmission
...




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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Scott,

> I was going to respond to your previous post, and I still might, but in
> short: 1) you are right, rotating an image does not produce good results 
> in
> Rev no matter how it is done, and 2) it is sometimes more work to create
> "sexy" interfaces in Rev, but it is still doable.

Thanks for your reply I'm glad I'm not missing something obvious.

> As far as your clock app goes, I would look at creating the various
> positions of the hands as antialiased bitmaps outside of Rev since, as you
> discovered, image rotation is not as good as it should be.  The import the
> images, and use a button to serve as a "display" for the images, but 
> setting
> the icon of the button to appropriate image at the right time:

The "frames" method of animating the hands did occur to me, but I wasn't yet 
up to the task of creating 180 images (60 each for hours, minutes, and 
seconds). Plus this would result is a huge distro -- like 500K or more just 
for those pictures.

Also, I think a really nice aspect of the K. clock is that you can set the 
color of the face and the rim to anything you like. Even sexier, the rest of 
the UI elements adapt. If you pick a "dark" background, the hands and date 
display switch to complementary tints.

Poking through the JavaScript supplied with the K. clock, I see the author 
accomplishes this with a "colorize" command applied to the PNG image. I 
think I can colorize in Rev, but this is only possible by using a blending 
mode in combination with another object. In other words, if I have a 50% 
grey PNG of the hands, to make them green I have to put a green object 
"behind" the hands and set the appropriate blend style.

Am I right about this, or is there a way of colorizing an object directly?

I wanted to try some other things, and you'll see the results of my efforts 
on that in a little while.

> IMO, getting images from Photoshop into Rev (or Konfabulator) is not what
> makes for a visually appealing UI -- it's what is done with Photoshop (or
> other image editor) that counts.

You're right of course. Someone could create junk in PS that looks like junk 
when assembled in Rev. But undeniably, the illustration tools in PS are 
pretty swift, and so you can easily do stuff like gradients and drop shadows 
and "gel" looks. When it looks pretty in PS, you run their little tool and 
you automagically have a pretty template to wire up with JavaScript. It's 
almost as if you could draw your UI with the world's best art tool then turn 
on a "coding" palette to make it come alive. I have to admit that it's 
tempting to learn JavaScript now. (But xTalk would be better by far!)

> For more inspiration, I believe Rev has a sample app gallery somewhere on
> their site.  At the risk of tooting my own horn, you're welcome to see 
> here
> for additional examples of more "dimensional" things built in Rev:
> .

Yes, I've been to your site before and your stuff looks utterly fantastic!

Bill


"Scott Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in 
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
> -
> E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> W: http://www.tactilemedia.com 



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Re: jabber or other IM protocol

[Andre Garzia]

Ben,

there's an alpha library for MSN by Shao Sean, it's on her page at  
http://shaosean.tk


Cheers
andre


On Dec 4, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Ben Rubinstein wrote:

Has anyone written a Jabber client, server, bot, or library in  
Transcript? (Failing that, any other IM protocol?)


Any experience to share, tips, gotchas?



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Re: Saving data to stacks via CGI

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Andre,

Many thanks for sharing your
experience in this topic!

Andre Garzia wrote:
> I'd recommend one of two approaches to solve your
problem.
> (1) Use a second CGI/stack as a queue organizer. 
> Your main cgi would pass request to change the data
stack 
> to this queue organizer that would put all requests
on a 
> queue and execute them when possible. 

i need some references to understand how to implement
this queue manager in a Rev CGI. 

Could you point me to some message threads about this?

Did you know if this technique had been stress tested
with
many simultaneous connections?

Pierre Sahores and Bjorke had a lot of experience in
this
area, so maybe they could answer too.

if i remember well, Pierre explained in some message,
that
his Rev CGI solution is able to handle thousands of
request
per second, but this Rev CGI pass the processed data
to
a php script that have other functions.

Bjorke manages the RevChat server, so he know what
happens when multiple users try to post messages at
the same time. Did they get queued in some arbitrary
order? or Some of them get lost in the transmission?

>The trick is: received a request then queue, you can
use 
> a simple text file for queue and the standard file  
> locking algorithms for prevent concurrent access to
the queue.

Ah, Locking algorithms! i need help with this too! :-)

> (2) That's the easy one. Use a RDBMS as data
storage.

i suspect that this will require a whole new set of
programming knowledge...

Let's try with a complete Rev CGI solution first! :-)

Thanks a lot again Andre!

Have a nice weekend!

al

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jabber or other IM protocol

[Ben Rubinstein]

Has anyone written a Jabber client, server, bot, or library in Transcript? 
(Failing that, any other IM protocol?)


Any experience to share, tips, gotchas?

TIA,

  Ben Rubinstein   |  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cognitive Applications Ltd   |  Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600
  http://www.cogapp.com|  Fax  : +44 (0)1273-728866

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Bill Marriott wrote:

> I believe my original point was that Rev would be more popular if it were
> easier to create "sexy" user interfaces like the ones in K. I've spent six
> to eight hours trying to get Rev to emulate the pretty little clock included
> with K, something that should be pretty easy. But it's not easy, and I think
> this reinforces what I said.

Hi Bill:

I was going to respond to your previous post, and I still might, but in
short: 1) you are right, rotating an image does not produce good results in
Rev no matter how it is done, and 2) it is sometimes more work to create
"sexy" interfaces in Rev, but it is still doable.

IMO, getting images from Photoshop into Rev (or Konfabulator) is not what
makes for a visually appealing UI -- it's what is done with Photoshop (or
other image editor) that counts.  There are a few of us here who do some
cool things with bitmaps, but the majority of folks are developer types who
I would guess find it too demanding to learn the ins and outs of Photoshop,
on top of already dealing with their own projects.  (On my end, I'm working
on some modest solutions for this, but that's a story for another post.)

Chip Walters has a tool for Rev called Interface Builder that allows you to
construct images with reflections/material finishes/etc from within Rev.  If
one already has some understanding of how to create rendered looking objects
in Photoshop, Interface Builder is a useful option for creating similar
effects within Rev.

As far as your clock app goes, I would look at creating the various
positions of the hands as antialiased bitmaps outside of Rev since, as you
discovered, image rotation is not as good as it should be.  The import the
images, and use a button to serve as a "display" for the images, but setting
the icon of the button to appropriate image at the right time:

  set the icon of btn "minutehand" to (id of img hand7.png)

Again, I realize this is more work, but it is a way to achieve what you're
looking for.

For more inspiration, I believe Rev has a sample app gallery somewhere on
their site.  At the risk of tooting my own horn, you're welcome to see here
for additional examples of more "dimensional" things built in Rev:
.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Best Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Times Change.... and often for the better

[Alejandro Tejada]

Judy Perry wrote:

> Better go stock up on Benadryl, then...  ;-)

ROTFL! :))

> I never got to know him personally, outside of the
HC list.
> So sorry to disappoint ;-)

that's a real pity. i still remember the messages
in the HC list and just keep wondering if all
these colorful exchanges of opinions were
the public continuation of personal conversations.

sometimes it looks like the firm position that 
everyone took, were the results of years of
discussions in previous meetings or reunions.  :-|

al

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

Depends. What HIG specification are you wanting to follow? (link please.) 
I'm sure we could find portions where Rev deviates from it. There's nothing 
I know of in K. that would prevent one from creating an HIG-compliant 
widget.

One thing my early experiments seem to have shown me is that no way will I 
be able to make anything that relies on rotating a bitmap. It's just too 
slow and ugly in Rev :( I had thought I would be able to do that.

I believe my original point was that Rev would be more popular if it were 
easier to create "sexy" user interfaces like the ones in K. I've spent six 
to eight hours trying to get Rev to emulate the pretty little clock included 
with K, something that should be pretty easy. But it's not easy, and I think 
this reinforces what I said.

As for Apples-to-oranges, if you think this is the case then I don't think 
we'll ever be able to compare Rev to anything else.

Bill

"Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> Further, any code comparisons between this and the Revolution 
>> implementations should consider equal feature comparisons:
>>
>> 1) Customizable tint for rim and background images
>> 2) Nice, realistically animated, "bouncy" second hand
>> 3) Date display that can be turned on/off
>> 4) Attractive custom images used for all elements (hands, face, rim, 
>> etc.)
>> 5) Preferences interface for colorization, chime interval, window level, 
>> etc.
>> 6) Variable Opacity through to the desktop
>>
>> It wouldn't be fair to compare the leanest possible Revolution clock to 
>> the fanciest possible clock widget, would it?
>
> No, but if this odd apples-to-oranges comparison is to be even more fair 
> we should also try to build a standard HIG-compliant app with 
> Konfabulator. ;)
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Managing Editor, revJournal
>  ___
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Re: Times Change.... and often for the better

[Judy Perry]

Better go stock up on Benadryl, then...  ;-)

I never got to know him personally, outside of the HC list.

So sorry to disappoint ;-)

Judy

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> Now, i'm itching for reading
> Judy Perry's comments... :D

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Is there a virus in one of Rev's file?

[Éric Miclo]

Hello,

I've just reinstalled Rev and Intego VirusBarrier tels me that the  
revspeechsapi4.dll contains a virus called "w32.NetSky.Q".

Is somebody aware of that?

Thanks for any answer.

Regards,

ÉrIC

-- My NeXT computer will Be a Mac too! --


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Re: Visual Programming, Helix

[Richard Gaskin]

Martin Baxter wrote:

Sivakatirswami wrote:

I was a bit of Helix advocate for a very short while,  but our IT team 
here responsible for development took one look and  said "no way!"  
They went with Acius 4D in the end. It has a great  balance between 
visual representation of tables and field  relationships and raw code 
procedures... I think Helix died.



Perhaps it died, but it seemingly lives on, which makes it a zombie I 
suppose. I was surprised too.


http://www.helixtech.com/


Strange:   they claim a goal of having v6 on Mac, Win, and Linux, yet 
they're using Code Warrior.  Ugh.  The Mactel thang rather blows that 
strategy.


Helix would seem an ideal candidate for using Rev to make the UI, and 
implement the DB engine as externals


--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: Visual Programming, Helix

[Martin Baxter]

Sivakatirswami wrote:
I was a bit of Helix advocate for a very short while,  but our IT team 
here responsible for development took one look and  said "no way!"  They 
went with Acius 4D in the end. It has a great  balance between visual 
representation of tables and field  relationships and raw code 
procedures... I think Helix died.


Perhaps it died, but it seemingly lives on, which makes it a zombie I 
suppose. I was surprised too.


http://www.helixtech.com/

Martin Baxter
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Dan Winkler (was: Times Change.... and often for the better)

[Alejandro Tejada]

Bill Marriott wrote:

> Bill Atkinson gets all the credit for HyperCard, 
> but it was actually Dan Winkler who created
HyperTalk. 
> I hope Dan has his mansion and early retirement as
well.

Actually, looks like Dan had overcome
some serious health problems.


He is in the developer's list
of PythonCard:


Ms. Jeanne DeVoto had worked closely with
him, so she could tell us for sure about
his actual projects.

al

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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Charles Hartman]

Thank you for pointing that out. I am totally in favor of it; if I  
had any votes I would vote for it.


Charles


On Dec 4, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:


Charles-

Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:37:41 AM, you wrote:


This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle
"is", and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like
English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing
carefully!) "is" and "is a" and "is in".


...and don't forget BZ #3157...

--
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Visual Programming, mTropolis, Chipwits and Revolution

[Ryno Swart]

Did anybody like AxelEdge from Mindavenue?

Greg Smith


I like it, Greg. I downloaded AxelEdge two days ago, looked at it this 
morning for about an hour and then had to go out. When I got back my 
son (11) had done a whole character, animated it and set it to music. 
He likes computers, but really just playing games. Axel pulled him in 
and led him on. He never ever referred to the tutorial or help files.


http://users.iafrica.com/s/sw/swartart/Cubbyhole/Pet.htm

You will have to download the Axel Player. Jean made a bit of 
interactivity, click on the Dogbat to get music (you may have to click 
more than once).


It is no Sistine Chapel, but how easily it motivated a youngster! This 
is the kind of interface I can relate to. An interface has to be 
attractive and inviting. Sexy, if you will. My field being fine art, 
including design, I would be most willing to get involved with any 
project looking at a Rev makeover. In fact, if anybody wants some 
artistic input for their project, I would be only too happy to help.


Ryno.
http:artistvision.org

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Richard Gaskin]

Bill Marriott wrote:
Further, any code comparisons between this and the Revolution 
implementations should consider equal feature comparisons:


1) Customizable tint for rim and background images
2) Nice, realistically animated, "bouncy" second hand
3) Date display that can be turned on/off
4) Attractive custom images used for all elements (hands, face, rim, etc.)
5) Preferences interface for colorization, chime interval, window level, 
etc.

6) Variable Opacity through to the desktop

It wouldn't be fair to compare the leanest possible Revolution clock to the 
fanciest possible clock widget, would it?


No, but if this odd apples-to-oranges comparison is to be even more fair 
we should also try to build a standard HIG-compliant app with 
Konfabulator. ;)


--
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 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Visual Programming, mTropolis, Chipwits and Revolution

[Sivakatirswami]

I don't do dbase much now, but did years ago... I don't know if any  
of you ever remember a remarkable implementation of this in the early  
Mac relational dBase called "Helix" way back when. I thought it was  
very powerful in my naivete in those days when playing with it next  
to Hypercard... thinking "this is neat I don't have to do any  
scripting at all," and for simple stuff it was brilliantly free of  
code. But in reality, I ended up actually doing really intricate  
things in Hypercard...


With Helix when you started getting like 20 tables in your database  
with all kinds of relationships going, this incredible visual maze  
started to build up with lines going everywhere... you had to drag  
out the icons to make room to make sure things were clear, and you  
would have  needed to get a wide format printer to print the thing  
(if you wanted to) and the map would have probably been about eight  
feet long three feet tall, an exaggeration of course, but you get the  
point. Past a certain point, the development process ground down to  
molasses pace. I was a bit of Helix advocate for a very short while,  
but our IT team here responsible for development took one look and  
said "no way!"  They went with Acius 4D in the end. It has a great  
balance between visual representation of tables and field  
relationships and raw code procedures... I think Helix died.


Richard is right... programming, especially xTalk, (because it is so  
un-onerous) is actually a break from the helter skelter of external  
life and you slip into a stream of pristine clarity and focus if you  
get real mental space to do this work. Of course if you talk like  
that to anyone, they think you are nuts (smile).


On Dec 03, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

He said that while iconic programming had a lot of value for simple  
things, to do anything complex meant creating diagrams that were  
difficult to read, and that ultimately a substantial program like  
even a basic text editor would be as hard to read expressed purely  
visually as it would be in textual code.




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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Mark Wieder]

Charles-

Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:37:41 AM, you wrote:

> This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle
> "is", and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like
> English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing  
> carefully!) "is" and "is a" and "is in".

...and don't forget BZ #3157...

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Mark Wieder]

Richard-

Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:05:35 AM, you wrote:

> Meanwhile, even English has its glaring absences, like having no
> singular third-party gender-independent pronoun, leaving us to invent
> works like "s/he" or awkwardly using the plural "they" instead.

it?

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

I'll definitely look into the archives for the clock solutions.

However, the JavaScript file to run the Konfabulator clock is in fact only 
9,280 bytes.

Further, any code comparisons between this and the Revolution 
implementations should consider equal feature comparisons:

1) Customizable tint for rim and background images
2) Nice, realistically animated, "bouncy" second hand
3) Date display that can be turned on/off
4) Attractive custom images used for all elements (hands, face, rim, etc.)
5) Preferences interface for colorization, chime interval, window level, 
etc.
6) Variable Opacity through to the desktop

It wouldn't be fair to compare the leanest possible Revolution clock to the 
fanciest possible clock widget, would it?

Bill

"Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
>>> I believe for certain that a widget like the Konfabulator clock could be
>>> done with Rev, but I don't have the faintest idea of how to begin, and 
>>> it
>>> seems like it would be a big project. (I'm going to start on it right 
>>> now!)
>>> However, Konfabulator seems to make this pretty easy for a casual 
>>> author.
>>>
>> Bill - it's been done. You should search the list about two months 
>> back -- there was a long active thread about creating a clock in Rev in 
>> minimum code and processor load. Several on this list were competing for 
>> the cleanest, smartest code. It got down to less than 10 lines I think.
>
> Meanwhile the Dashboard implementation of Clock is driven by 28k of 
> JavaScript, in addition to the HMTL and CSS to present it.
>
> 10 lines vs 28k -- not sure the Konfab paradigm is easier for developers 
> after all.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Managing Editor, revJournal
>  ___
>  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Charles Hartman]

On Dec 4, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Jerry Daniels wrote:

I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't  
contain another string.

where I always feel you should be able to use something like:
   if myVar does not contain "fred"


This would mean adding "does" to the Transcript dictionary. Given the  
complex uses to which English puts that word (see "DO-support" in a  
linguistic grammar text), I think that might be not so much a can of  
worms as a whole dockful of oildrums full . . . It might be nice to  
be able to write "what does myVar contain" and then look in a system  
variable 'what' (like 'it', after all), but it sure would be a mess  
to parse.


This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle  
"is", and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like  
English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing  
carefully!) "is" and "is a" and "is in".


Charles

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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Richard Gaskin]

Jerry Daniels wrote:
I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't  
contain another string.


While there is a mysterious absence of "does not contain" to complimenty 
"contains", you can use "is not in" and "is in" for the same purposes.


Meanwhile, even English has its glaring absences, like having no 
singular third-party gender-independent pronoun, leaving us to invent 
works like "s/he" or awkwardly using the plural "they" instead.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Richard Gaskin]

Stephen Barncard wrote:


I believe for certain that a widget like the Konfabulator clock could be
done with Rev, but I don't have the faintest idea of how to begin, and it
seems like it would be a big project. (I'm going to start on it right 
now!)

However, Konfabulator seems to make this pretty easy for a casual author.

Bill - it's been done. You should search the list about two months back 
-- there was a long active thread about creating a clock in Rev in 
minimum code and processor load. Several on this list were competing for 
the cleanest, smartest code. It got down to less than 10 lines I think. 


Meanwhile the Dashboard implementation of Clock is driven by 28k of 
JavaScript, in addition to the HMTL and CSS to present it.


10 lines vs 28k -- not sure the Konfab paradigm is easier for developers 
after all.


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Re: Saving data to stacks via CGI

[Andre Garzia]

On Dec 4, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Alejandro Tejada wrote:


this is great, but just noticed
that this option is not included
or recommended in any message, tutorial
or page about using cgi in this platform.

Does exist risks for data loss when
multiple users save data to one stack
in the cgi folder?

Does exist the real possibility that many
users try to write the stack at the same
time and erase other users contributions
or (worse) damage the stack?



Alejandro,

yes, that is always a risk. This can happen, and in my own paranoic  
opinion, if it can happen, it will happen. I'd recommend one of two  
approaches to solve your problem.


	(1) Use a second CGI/stack as a queue organizer. Your main cgi would  
pass request to change the data stack to this queue organizer that  
would put all requests on a queue and execute them when possible.  
This is some work but it will keep you coding a 100% transcript  
solution that will scale fine. The trick is: received a request then  
queue, you can use a simple text file for queue and the standard file  
locking algorithms for prevent concurrent access to the queue. This  
can even be combined into one single CGI, no matter how many  
instances of the CGI is running, they will all queue requests and  
execute them in order, if you execute the queue after answering the  
browser then you wont clog the user access and your queue routines  
will run on dead time (dead time is the time between your cgi  
answering the browser and it's exit from memory, during that period  
you can do whatever you want since there's no http connection anymore  
and no one waiting for answers, just use that CPU time!)


	(2) That's the easy one. Use a RDBMS as data storage. It's not 100%  
transcript since it involves some knowledge of SQL. You can use  
MySQL, most ISPs support it to one degree or the other, or you can  
opt to go with embedded solutions like altSQLite and Valentina. If  
you use a RDBMS that supports transactions (such as postgreeSQL) then  
you won't even need queue routines.


Cheers and good luck
Andre
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Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?

[Jerry Daniels]

I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't  
contain another string.


-Jerry Daniels

Tool makers for the 21st century
http://www.daniels-mara.com/products



On Dec 3, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:


Yes, I know the alternatives, it's just that as we were discussing the
limitations of Transcript's Englishness, I thought I would mention one
place where it seems inconsistent.

Sarah


On 12/4/05, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You could use:

if "fred" is not in myVar then...

?

Sarah Reichelt wrote:

...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being
"English-like"... you tend to think that it *should* respond to
English commands. In English

hide field "xxx"and
if field "xxx" is hidden




The one that always irks me is "contains" and it's opposite.
   if myVar contains "fred"
This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to  
reverse it,

so you have to use:
   if myVar contains "fred" is false

where I always feel you should be able to use something like:
   if myVar does not contain "fred"

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Re: Times Change.... and often for the better

[Alejandro Tejada]

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> In brief, I've found Raney an acquired taste, 
> but really very enjoyable once I got to know him.

Jackeline Landman wrote:
> My exact experience. I ended up loving the guy 
> after wanting to kill him on the HyperCard list 
> for some months. After I got to know him better,
> I wrote him an apology for being so mad at him. 

Now, i'm itching for reading 
Judy Perry's comments... :D

al

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Creating a Visual Working Environment with and For Revolution

[Greg Smith]

Richard Gaskin and Janis:

There seems to be enough interest in creating a tool that allows people 
to create serious, engaging and funny software products that are 
primarily visual in nature, yet require the user to solve problems.  It 
is the hope of many that this tool would be also visual in nature, not 
requiring the user to engage in any large quantity of coding. Nearly 
every product that has been created to provide a visual solution always 
seems to have, as an alterior motive, the intention of dragging the user 
back into the realm of learning to code using some traditional 
programming language.  Why not create a very powerful tool that can 
really produce real software, focused on the type that is visual in 
nature - interactive graphical applications and games - that does not 
have, as part of its goal, teaching the user how to program with 
traditional languages?  A specialized and fun tool, yet not frivolous 
and childish in design.


When developers go about the task of producing products like this, they 
usually resort to one analogy and not several - like only flowchart 
logic design, or purely drag and drop iconic systems.  I think the whole 
problem can be addressed by making a "construction system" that 
parallels what a person would use if trying to create the same system in 
the real world.


I recently visited several sites where folks are completely obsessed and 
spending lots of money and time building extremely complex and 
interactive physical systems, on a par with any high tech factory, all 
out of lego parts.  If you push this switch, this set of behaviors 
ensues - if this object touches that object, this whole circuit of 
activity takes place, and so on.  These physical demonstrations show 
cause and effect reactions, random behavior, physics, timed behavior and 
loops - all the things that make up most entertaining games. What this 
also demonstrated to me was that very complex systems, that are 
interactive, can be made of many smaller, non-complex parts - simple parts.


If the problem of developing a visual programming tool were addressed in 
a way that it would specifically parallel a physical construction 
system, capable of creating incredibly complex interactions and 
environments - all in 3D - yet,  any person of any skill level could 
begin to build with such a system, and new subsystems could be built on 
these elementary building skills, until, finally a complex system would 
emerge from the sum of the parts - we would have a really winning 
creation tool.  It would be conceivable to create things like robots 
demonstrating A.I., as well as gaming systems with characters that 
demonstrated A.I., and environments that react intelligently with 
encounters, therein.  Such a graphical development system would have the 
added advantage of having a set of capabilities and functions that are 
not easily reproduceable in the real world, parallel system.  And, the 
parts would not have to be as restrictive as a lego set, but could take 
many shapes, suitable for creating nearly any graphical, interactive 
situation.  And the best part about all of it is that it would be fun - 
the process of making things would be fun and the process of "playing" 
the completed project would also be fun.  Fun for the whole family!


If the underlying constructs of the whole system were based in a 
language like Revolution, which is, at least approachable to most 
people, modifications and extensions could then be accessible to 
everyone with programming skills.  I'm sure that not everything can be 
made to specifically resemble a "part" in the parallel real world 
system, and that is where some other form of logic connectivity would 
need to enter in.  But, I think, even that could take the form of 
"electric wires" or "logic rays", that network everything together.  
Think of it . . . , a living, moving, interactive development 
environment that makes sense  - All  In Glorious 3D!


But, I'm afraid it would be up to guys like Richard Gaskin, etc. to lay 
the initial framework for such a thing, at least.  I'd be happy to 
assist, as I'm sure others would be,  with any kind of 3D or 2D graphic 
and animation work, and to test any new "inventions" that are part of 
the development process.  A project like this might even help a great 
many people, like me, to come to grips with Transcript in a tangible 
way.  Then we would have the best of all possible worlds.


What do you guys think?

Greg Smith


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Saving data to stacks via CGI

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi all,

experimenting with cgi,
i was able to save data
from a html form (in a webpage)
to a stack in the cgi folder.

this new data could be stored
in the stack custom properties
or fields.

only had to use this line
(before the line: stop using the stack)
to save the new data:

save this stack

and information uploaded from
the webpage is stored in the stack
for later retrieval or processing.

this is great, but just noticed
that this option is not included
or recommended in any message, tutorial
or page about using cgi in this platform.

Does exist risks for data loss when 
multiple users save data to one stack
in the cgi folder?

Does exist the real possibility that many
users try to write the stack at the same
time and erase other users contributions
or (worse) damage the stack?

For example:
in this mail list, when two users post
a message at the same time, (have seen
this many times) these two messages are 
fused in one large message, but just the
subject of the first message appears in the 
digest's list of messages subjects.

Does anyone had test the safety of multiple 
writes from different users to a stack in 
the cgi folder while using their Revolution
CGI setup?

Thanks in advance.

al

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Re: English-like nature of Transcript ?

[Stephen Barncard]

I have come to the same conclusion - working on a 6-7 stack large 
project and command and function names like


libSQB_CustomPropertyToNewObjectPAIR pOptions,pobjProp1,pobjProp2

libKMR_returnFieldTitlesARRAYFromDatabase pTargetDB, pTableName

although verbose, really work for me... I just cut and paste the long 
names..and prefix most names with the stack name.


I have to stop and force myself to think more about and describe what 
this damn thing does and where else can I use it - and I package (and 
re-use) a larger quantity of smaller subroutines as a result.



sqb





Because "efficiency" of producing original source code leads to 
gross ineffiency during debugging and subsequently as modifications 
are made over the life of the software.  IMFO, cryptic names and 
cryptic syntax save one little during initial coding and cost _lots_ 
over the rest of the life of a project.


Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company


--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: European Revolution Conference 2006

[sims]

Also, I noticed that I am present in 5 of the 6 conference photos! :-)


Brazilians have buffets mastered! In the buffet photo, I am certain that you
managed to fill a plate before the camera person even set up!  ;-)


Sims, thanks again for all the hard work organizing the conference


My pleasure, Andre. I'm looking forward to doing another. It was great fun and
lots of learning took place...the next one will be even better! This time the
hotel will be setting up our own lounge for the evening for snacks, drinks, and
talk between friends new & old. New WiFi and ADSL in rooms also.

sims
EuroRevCon 2006
http://techietours.com
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Re: Visual Programming, mTropolis, Chipwits and Revolution

[Alejandro Tejada]

on Sat, 3 Dec 2005 
Janus Jakaterina wrote:

> I think PC users can play a virtual game of ChipWits
> at http://www.virtualapple.com/chipwitsdisk.html

This link does not work! :-(

But you could always play ChipWits
inside an Apple II emulator! ;-)

See some screenshots:


ChipWits has been discussed before 
in this mail list:





> RobotProg: program a virtual robot with a flowchart
> http://www.physicsbox.com/indexrobotprogen.html

Very nice, indeed. This program is a winner
in the education category for RealBasic apps.

You could run Robot Odyssey, Rocky Boats,
Oregon Trail and hundreds of educational games
in AppleWin, an Apple II emulator.

There are some ftp servers (like asimov)
full of apps and games for this platform.

These games, with their almost abstract graphics,
are really eye and mind opening. Running them,
you remember what really contributes to
an engaging interactive learning experience
using the computer. It's not only about the 
jawdropping graphics, like all game console makers 
and many movie makers want us to believe...

Actually, i believe that for young minds,
these first games with almost abstract graphics 
are most useful for their cognitive development
in many areas.

Ah, and they always require that you 
read the instructions! :D

al

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Re: English-like nature of Transcript ?

[Rob Cozens]

Richmond,


2. Some people prefer to code in a more "programming-code"
sort of syntax (maybe those coming from elsewhere),


There are historical and practical reasons for this:

History: In the early days of computing, space was at a premium both 
inside & outside the computer.  RAM & disk storage were limited in 
capacity (I supported 10 terminals on a DG Eclipse C330 with 256 K -- 
ie: 1/4 of 1 MB -- RAM and 190 MB of disk storage in the mid 70s) and 
very expensive.  Also, program logic on many computers at the time 
was maintained on punched cards, limiting each line of code to 80 
characters.  In addition, many early compilers limited variable names 
to <10 characters.  So early coders kept variable names short and 
most compiler syntax was "succinct", to say the least.


Perhaps for the practical reason below, many programmers continue to 
value brevity when space, cost, and compiler limitations are no 
longer an issue.


Practicality:  Humans in general tend to strive for "efficiency", 
and, faced with deadlines to produce working software, many 
programmers prefer to name (& reference many times throughout the 
source code) variables "x" and "y" rather than repeatedly type 
descriptive variable names like "workingTotal" or "customerName". The 
presumption is short variable names and cryptic syntax lead to more 
efficient programming and shorter development cycles.


From the perspective of my 30 years of programming, that presumption 
is dead wrong.


Because "efficiency" of producing original source code leads to gross 
ineffiency during debugging and subsequently as modifications are 
made over the life of the software.  IMFO, cryptic names and cryptic 
syntax save one little during initial coding and cost _lots_ over the 
rest of the life of a project.


Rob Cozens CCW
Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
 Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

 from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631) 
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Re: European Revolution Conference 2006

[Andre Garzia]

I have the most fond memories of Malta and Sims and Cloe and all the  
others guys. If I manage to sum enough money I'll sure stay more than  
some days there. I hope I am able to go again this time.


Also, I noticed that I am present in 5 of the 6 conference photos! :-)

Sims, thanks again for all the hard work organizing the conference
Cheers
andre






On Dec 4, 2005, at 10:37 AM, sims wrote:


Announcing the 2006 European Revolution Conference
3-4-5 November 2006 in Malta

Keynote Speaker & discussion:  Kevin Miller CEO of Runtime Revolution

Presenters include: Malte Brill, Eric Chatenot, Richard Gaskin,  
Björnke von Gierke,

Scott Rossi, Dar Scott, Alex Tweedly

Package pricing will be announced very soon - please get in touch  
and book

for our discounted early bird pricing.

To learn more about the 2006 European Revolution Conference go to   
http://techietours.com


Please email  [EMAIL PROTECTED] to receive news concerning  
this conference.


This is a world-wide Revolution - All are invited!

sims
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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Stephen Barncard]

Bill - it's been done. You should search the list about two months 
back -- there was a long active thread about creating a clock in Rev 
in minimum code and processor load. Several on this list were 
competing for the cleanest, smartest code. It got down to less than 
10 lines I think. There must have been 20 versions.




I believe for certain that a widget like the Konfabulator clock could be
done with Rev, but I don't have the faintest idea of how to begin, and it
seems like it would be a big project. (I'm going to start on it right now!)
However, Konfabulator seems to make this pretty easy for a casual author.

Bill


--
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s a n  f r a n c i s c o
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Re: show vs visible

[James Spencer]

On Dec 4, 2005, at 8:35 AM, Marty Billingsley wrote:


Just asking if Transcript, which has been made English-like in the
first instance (the setting of the property by using the verb "hide")
can be extended to be English-like in the second instance (accessing
the state of the property by using the adjective "hidden").


The thing that prevents any programming language from completely  
matching English (and I suspect any other language although I'm not a  
linguist so maybe this is wrong) is that English is not a precise  
language; English statements are unambiguous.  Context helps but does  
not resolve the issue.  Programming languages, at least until such  
time as someone comes up with one which is capable of divining what  
we want the computer to do w rather than what we told it to do, MUST  
be unambiguous.


The ambiguity here is that "is" generally essentially means  
"equivalence"  or "identity" but you want to use it here to mean "has  
the property of".  Thus the issue is not really the problem of "hide"  
versus "hidden", verb vs. adjective, but rather the explicit nature  
of "is".  "Field xxx" is NOT hidden, it is "Field xxx" or some other  
designation which defines the same.  I am "Jim Spencer" or "Employee  
2137" or "the man who lives at a particular address in Rochester"; I  
am not "fat" even if I am and even if that would be correct  
conversational English.


Yes, you can special case particular words like hidden but that may  
be worse: now you have to remember or look up to see if this is one  
of the verbs that sets a property that you can refer to by its  
adjective.  I personally prefer linguistic consistency even if it  
sometimes requires a statement form which would be awkward (but note:  
not incorrect) in conversational speech.


James P. Spencer
Rochester, MN

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Badges??  We don't need no stinkin badges!"



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RE: show vs visible

[Marty Billingsley]

"Preston Shea" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> I get out of my depth pretty easily, so your observation may be going over
> my head:
>
> "But there is a way of setting the property (hide and show) without
> actually referring to the property "visible".  So why can't we
> find out the state of the property without knowing explicitly
> about it, i.e., what the property's name is?  "
>
> Hide and show are verbs (commands) visible is a property with boolean value:
> "If the visible of myObject is false then..." or "If not the visible of
> myObject then..."
> I don't know if you could say this with just "hide"

The adjective that goes along with the verb "hide" is "hidden".
My question was: why can't we ask if an object is hidden?

Basically, I'm saying that if we can use
  hide field "xxx"
instead of having to say
  set the visible of field "xxx" to false
they why can't we say
  if field "xxx" is hidden ...
instead of
  if the visible of field "xxx" is false ...

Just asking if Transcript, which has been made English-like in the
first instance (the setting of the property by using the verb "hide")
can be extended to be English-like in the second instance (accessing
the state of the property by using the adjective "hidden").

  - marty

--
Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools
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European Revolution Conference 2006

[sims]

Announcing the 2006 European Revolution Conference
3-4-5 November 2006 in Malta

Keynote Speaker & discussion:  Kevin Miller CEO of Runtime Revolution

Presenters include: Malte Brill, Eric Chatenot, 
Richard Gaskin, Björnke von Gierke,

Scott Rossi, Dar Scott, Alex Tweedly

Package pricing will be announced very soon - please get in touch and book
for our discounted early bird pricing.

To learn more about the 2006 European Revolution 
Conference go to  http://techietours.com


Please email  [EMAIL PROTECTED] to receive 
news concerning this conference.


This is a world-wide Revolution - All are invited!

sims
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Re: show vs visible

[Klaus Major]

Hi Mark,


Preston-

Saturday, December 3, 2005, 5:25:04 PM, you wrote:

Hide and show are verbs (commands) visible is a property with  
boolean value:
"If the visible of myObject is false then..." or "If not the  
visible of

myObject then..."
I don't know if you could say this with just "hide"


ROTFL. To be consistent, it would be "the hide of myObject"...


yep, and the opposite "the jekkil of myObject", right? :-D


--
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Best

Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de

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Re: Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

"Bill Marriott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I believe for certain that a widget like the Konfabulator clock could be 
> done with Rev

LOL. Ok, I'm not so certain anymore.

I thought I would start by figuring out how to rotate a "hand" around the 
way they do it in Konfabulator.

So, I made a pretty-looking hour hand in my drawing program, saved it as a 
PNG, and imported it as a control into Revolution 2.6.1.

Then I wrote a very simple script:

on mouseup
repeat 12 times
rotate image "hourHand" by -30
end repeat
end mouseup

Boy was I astonished... the PNG file was totally distorted, more and more, 
by each rotation. But even crazier, it took *forever!* In fact, each 
iteration of the loop took exponentially longer and longer. Then the image 
disappeared altogether! I went to the task manager and I found that Rev was 
now using more than 512MB of RAM (for like a 12K PNG). I killed the process 
and relaunched.

I gave the rotate command a closer look in the documentation. Apparently, 
"some distortion is unavoidable" when rotating in non-90/180/270 degrees. I 
should instead set the angle property of the image. No mention of crashing 
Rev.

Well I did that,
set the angle of image "hourHand" to the angle of image "hourHand" - 30

and at least I'm not eating up RAM while destroying my bitmap anymore. But a 
disappointing observation: even though the image is a PNG with a nice alpha 
channel and partial transparency... I still get an ugly "jaggy" effect 
around the edges when the hand's angle is not 0/90/180/270. Anyone know why 
that is?

One more item I'm still looking into -- the angle property will rotate 
around an object's center. But I need it to rotate around some point toward 
the end of the object, where the hand is connected to the center post of the 
clock. I guess I'll have to break out my trig books to figure out how to 
reposition the hand after every rotation. (Or maybe... just make the PNG 
perfectly square and position the hand off-center within that square... 
yah... because I really hated trig.)

forging ahead...

Bill



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Why is Konfabulator "Pretty?"

[Bill Marriott]

Richard,

Konfabulator basically integrates JavaScript and XML, using Adobe PhotoShop 
as the UI generator. It's not at all an integrated development environment 
like RunRev is. However:

- Since PhotoShop is the "UI design" tool, the created widgets end up 
looking freeform and artsy.
- Alpha blending is basically on by default
- All widgets have a shared UI accessible by right-clicking them for 
preferences/about/close

So in one sense, Konfabulator doesn't really provide anything to make sexy 
UIs. On the other hand, they have an incredibly powerful UI tool in Adobe 
PhotoShop. Plus, by starting developers out in PhotoShop they "open the 
door" wide open for new "looks and feels." It's less likely developers 
constrain themselves to the traditional "windowed-looking" application.

How would I propose adding this ease to Rev?

1) Making their own PhotoShop-->Revolution script similar Konfabulator's. 
(Or Illustrator-->Rev or Xara Xtreme-->Rev) The script would automatically 
set up a new Rev stack with the background being the window shape, layers 
converted to objects all in the right starting position, a preset 
right-click menu, that sort of thing. Bonus points if you could update the 
PhotoShop file and have the Rev file also update.

2) Updating Rev's own UI to look more modern, with more compact palettes, 
things like dockable tabbed palettes (like Adobe apps and Dreamweaver), some 
3D or "gel" stuff here and there.

3) Tutorials and "how to" guides on making applications that look like 
these.

4) Better exposing/integrating the functions that support these capabilities 
in the top-level UI (as opposed to users having to find them in the 
functions documentation).

5) Sample applications that show off these capabilities.

I believe for certain that a widget like the Konfabulator clock could be 
done with Rev, but I don't have the faintest idea of how to begin, and it 
seems like it would be a big project. (I'm going to start on it right now!) 
However, Konfabulator seems to make this pretty easy for a casual author.

Bill

"Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> 1) About five to seven years behind the curve in UI. The reason why 
>> programs like "Konfabulator" get the attention is that they create 
>> widgets/programs that look modern/exciting, almost "by default." The same 
>> look-and-feel can be created with RunRev, but it's a lot more difficult.
>
> How does Konfabulator make that easier, and how would you propose adding 
> that ease to Rev?
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Font converter

[Bill Marriott]

I actually was in a desperate situation when FileMaker 7 came out and 
dropped support for Type 1 fonts. I had a ton of Type 1 fonts and a few 
FileMaker databases that used them. When this program came out it really was 
a relief, because I could convert those Type 1 fonts to TrueType.

"J. Landman Gay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Bill Marriott wrote:
>> http://www.asy.com/scrcf.htm
>>
>> free fully functional trial available
>
> Yay! Thanks. :) You search gooder than me.
>
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Visual Programming, mTropolis, Chipwits and Revolution

[Richard Gaskin]

Janus Jakaterina wrote:

Iconic programming is not the same as visual logic.
Icons are only one way to go. 

...


Maybe Revolution could be coaxed to provide a more
visual logic environment and reach out to a new
generation of developers. 


That's an attractive idea.
What would you propose it look like?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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[ANN] libBitwise 1.0.0 Released (short ;-)

[Sean Shao]

I've finally finished working on the bitwise math operators and have them 
working 100% (hopefully). The library (libBitwise) allows you to do bitwise 
operations on 32-bit signed integers. It's fast because it uses the built-in 
bit commands (no more bit-by-bit calculations) and some math checks.


** If you've used any of the code I've posted to the list before I'd 
recommend to use this code instead as it has been greatly tested, is faster 
and more accurate **


--
-Sean  

_
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement


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