Re: having to help Rev (was: Re: Memory Leak on export png????)

[Kay C Lan]

As there has been talk of 'thorough testing' and in light of the recent
posts trying to steer this thread into a different direction I thought I'd
share my own recent tests. Not really Rev related, but as I'm sure everyone
here does regular and thorough backups this may be of interest to one or two
others. Also I'm waiting for Rev to download gm-4:-)

For a while I've had this impression that my FW400 2.5" 5400rpm portable HD
backed up faster than my USB2 3.5" 7200rpm External HD so I finally got
around to actually sitting down and timing it and was extremely surprised.

My test was 'real world' but not fair in that I 'Carbon Copy Cloned' one
partition on my MacBook Pro to the FW400 2.5" and a different partition to
the USB2 3.5" and used Activity Monitor to record the time at 1GB write
intervals plus total time vs total GBs written. Of course there is a host of
reasons why one partition may backup faster than another, but the results
were so disparate (in favour of FW400) that I decided I needed a proper
test.

So using Drive Genius' 'Benchmark' facility I set about testing my 3.5"
External HD which has both FW400 and USB2 connections. I've been using the
USB2 connection because the advertised speed is suppose to be 120% that of
FW400.

Sustained Read Speeds
measures how many times single-block reads can be performed in one second.
This test is affected by read caching (the larger the read cache, the faster
the performance).

DataFW400USB2FW/USB
32K32.653 MB/s10.390 MB/s314%
64K36.364 MB/s15.534 MB/s234%
128K38.095 MB/s20.779 MB/s183%
256K39.024 MB/s21.477 MB/s182%
0.5M39.506 MB/s21.333 MB/s185%
1M40.000 MB/s21.192 MB/s189%
2M40.000 MB/s20.915 MB/s191%
4M39.506 MB/s21.769 MB/s181%
8M39.506 MB/s21.769 MB/s181%
16M39.025 MB/s22.535 MB/s173%

Sustained Write Speeds
measures how many times single-block writes can be performed in 1 second.
This test is affected by write caching (the larger the write cache, the
faster the performance).

32K17.978 MB/s7.805 MB/s230%
64K30.769 MB/s12.500 MB/s246%
128K32.323 MB/s17.297 MB/s187%
0.5M33.333 MB/s17.204 MB/s194%
1M33.684 MB/s17.297 MB/s195%
2M33.684 MB/s17.391 MB/s194%
4M33.684 MB/s17.204 MB/s196%
8M33.684 MB/s17.680 MB/s191%
16M33.684 MB/s17.204 MB/s196%

Random Read
measures drive performance for reads of blocks of data from 2 kilobytes to
16 megabytes.
For small block sizes, seek time and rotational latency are weighted more
heavily. For large block sizes, the transfer rate is weighted more heavily.

32K5.624 MB/s4.552 MB/s124%
64K9.143 MB/s8.020 MB/s114%
128K15.920 MB/s12.749 MB/s125%
256K22.857 MB/s15.610 MB/s146%
0.5M26.891 MB/s17.978 MB/s150%
1M32.653 MB/s19.632 MB/s166%
2M35.165 MB/s20.915 MB/s168%
4M37.647 MB/s21.333 MB/s176%
8M39.024 MB/s21.333 MB/s183%
16M39.024 MB/s21.192 MB/s184%

Random Write
measures drive performance for writes of blocks of data from 2 kilobytes to
16 megabytes.
For small block sizes, seek time and rotational latency are weighted more
heavily. For large block sizes, the transfer rate is weighted more heavily.

32K10.561 MB/s5.964 MB/s177%
64K15.842 MB/s9.846 MB/s161%
128K23.358 MB/s15.385 MB/s152%
256K30.476 MB/s16.410 MB/s186%
0.5M32.990 MB/s16.842 MB/s196%
1M33.684 MB/s17.021 MB/s198%
2M33.684 MB/s17.021 MB/s198%
4M33.684 MB/s16.754 MB/s201%
8M33.684 MB/s17.297 MB/s195%
16M33.684 MB/s17.486 MB/s193%

The Drive Genius guff about each of the tests and what effects the speed is
irrelevant in my case as the HD is the same, the only 'variables' are the
bus controllers, the bus and the wire between them.

Interestingly, although theoretically USB2 is suppose to be 120% FW400 my
results are the exact opposite, FW400 only once fell below 120% the speed of
USB2 and consistently ran at close to 200%.

Guess I'll be disconnecting the USB2 and going with FW400:-)

I'm assuming that my 3.5" HD must have a cheap and 'speed challenged' USB2
controller because if every other USB2 drive produced these kind of results
I'm sure there'd be an uproar. I just wish I'd gone with my 'gut feeling'
earlier and gone with FW400, I'd have saved myself half the time waiting for
backups to complete:-(
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Family punchups

[Richmond Mathewson]

Devi Asay wrote:

"I should be able to drive on whatever bl***y side of
the street I  
want to.
I want to be surprised when I turn on one of the water
faucets in the  
shower.
I don't care if the > button on my video player goes
forward,  
backward, stops or records"

Well, Yes, there have to be some rules, otherwise we
end up in some sort of unproductive anarchic chaos.

Microsoft and Apple produce operating systems that are
conventional (despite the silly advertising films
currently being bandied around by Apple) and they
would be extremely happy if they could force
conformity as well.

There is nothing wrong with conformity as such, as
long as one never loses sight of the fact that
throughout history what has constituted conformity has
repeatedly changed. If everybody became "locked in" to
a rigid, inflexible conformity creativity and new
ideas would be stifled.

My previous message, where I stated:

"All you lovers of liberty and non-conformity,
methinks
tis time to move on elsewhere!"

was not addressed to everyone; but to those who prefer
to take some, potentially, creative risks.

sincerely, Richmond Mathewson



A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle.






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developing on linux part 1

[Peter Alcibiades]

I was emboldened to write this by Ken Ray's post - otherwise I'd have felt I 
was teaching my grandmother  Hope it helps anyone who is sophisicated in 
rev but naive in Linux.

Peter

__

The thing to understand first is the environment in which almost all the other 
applications on a Linux system have been written.  

They will almost all, unlike yours, be Open Source.  Many will have been 
written in either the Gnome or the KDE development environments.  Even if 
written in other environments, they will use open source components.  If 
written in Python or other popular languages they will probably use the KDE 
or Gnome bindings.  They will then often take their look and feel from the 
Gnome or KDE desktop settings.  They will also have access to all the shared 
libraries, and will use them. OpenSource means that the source code is 
available, and that exotic distributions with exotic sorts of repository 
management can be ignored for packaging purposes, since people running them 
can be asked to compile their own.  See below for packaging.

The environment in which they run is highly layered and structured.  The 
window manager is distinct from the desktop environment, and distinct from 
the log-in manager, and they all are interchangeable and communicate via 
structured protocols.  Unlike either Windows or MacOS, you can choose 
independently:

-- which distribution you will use (Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva)
-- which login manager you use (xdm, kdm, gdm, wdm)
-- which window manager you will use (metacity, kwin, ICE, openbox, 
Fluxbox...)
-- which desktop environment you will use (KDE, Gnome, Xfce)
-- which theme you want to use for your desktop environment (Crystal, 
Redmond)
-- and then, which applications you want (Open Office, KOffice, Gnumeric, 
Abiword...)

Some things are windowmanagers but have functionality now associated with full 
desktop environments.  FVWM, WindowMaker and Enlightenment are in this 
category. 

So, you might choose a theme (icon set and colors) for KDE that makes it look 
just like Gnome.  It will look the same, but will of course still have all 
the KDE menus and default selections.  There are innumerable themes, 
including ones that emulate or approximate Mac and Windows styles.  There is 
no particular way that any distro looks, or even that most Desktop 
Environments look.  OSNews some time ago had a discussion in which people 
were invited to post their desktops.  There were hundreds of posts, and 
screenshots, and almost all were wildly different, even when based on KDE.

This gives rise to the common cry among Mac users encountering Linux for the 
first time:  all this choice is bad for me and makes me unhappy!  Well, 
horses for courses.

Almost all applications will have been packaged for the distro in which they 
are included, and will be available for download from the distribution's 
repositories.  For instance, they will be debian packages, or rpm packages or 
slackware packages.  They will carry indications of what libraries they need, 
and the installer will check for the presence of these and then add them 
automatically if not found during installation. Here are the requirements for 
xfe, a file manager:  
- Xfe is written in C++ and built using the FOX graphical toolkit library, 
therefore:
- For versions of Xfe prior to 0.70, you need the FOX library 1.0.x.
- For versions of Xfe prior to 0.80, you need the FOX library 1.2.x.
- For versions of Xfe prior to 0.98, you need the FOX library 1.4.x.
- For versions 0.98+, you need the FOX library 1.6.x.

Install xfe on Debian or Mandriva, and you'll find that the right Fox toolkit 
comes with it.  You'll also likely find that an entry is made in the KDE and 
Gnome menus, and that your alternative window manager picks up the Gnome and 
KDE menu entries and uses them, even if you are not running either.  
Incidentally, xfe illustrates the rule that if there is one application for 
something on Linux, there are probably ten where he came from.  Gnome uses 
Nautilus, KDE Konqueror.  Or Krusader. And probably someplace there is 
another kxxx being worked on as we write.  You can see why, when Mac people 
complain about the Finder, our eyes start to glaze over

You can assume, unlike when you write apps for Windows or Mac users, that the 
user already has a huge number of applications preinstalled or can install 
them very easily free.  These will include Office packages, contact managers, 
personal finance and accounting managers, image viewers of all sorts, 
specialist packages like project management, personal catalogue packages for 
books and records and recipes, little toolkits to do things like bulk file 
renaming.  CD and DVD writing.  Desktop publishing.  Image editing. 
Development environments and programming languages.  Take a specific example, 
databases.  I have installed the following (and I'm an amateur):  rekall, 
kexi, kn

Re: developing on linux part 1

[Sarah Reichelt]

The thing to understand first is the environment in which almost all the other
applications on a Linux system have been written.

They will almost all, unlike yours, be Open Source.  Many will have been
written in either the Gnome or the KDE development environments.  Even if
written in other environments, they will use open source components.  If
written in Python or other popular languages they will probably use the KDE
or Gnome bindings.  They will then often take their look and feel from the
Gnome or KDE desktop settings.


Hi Peter,

Many thanks for taking the time to enlighten those of us to whom Linux
is still an unknown. However this bit confuses me. I had assumed that
when you compiled an app for Linux it contained no specific UI so it
just adopted the look & feel of the user's system, whether KDE, Gnome
or whatever. You are saying that apps are built with links to a single
environment.

How does Rev fit into this? Do Rev apps for Linux include links to a
specific environment?

And I guess the most important question for those of us who are not
Linux experts but would like to  make Linux versions of our apps
available: what would you recommend as the best distro for testing if
we can only test on one?

Cheers,
Sarah
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scrollbars

[Martin Meili]

Hi there
• I've got a problem with scrollbars showing their thumbpositions if  
I run the stack on OSX Tiger. I f you open  the card holding more  
than one scrollbar it takes very long  until the card is ready and  
you can start your work. During this time the multicoloured windmill- 
cursor is shown. When your card is ready,  the changing of the  
scrollbars' thumbpositions is very jerky.


• The problem doesn't occur if I run the stack on OSX Panther, OS 9.x  
and Windows 2000 (Pentium III / 1000 mhz), or if I switch off the  
"show value" property (in this case the stack runs also fast using  
OSX Tiger).


• How to trigger the problem:
- create a new stack with two cards
- go to card two and place some scrollbars on it
- set the "start value" of each to 100
- set the "end value" of each to 0
!!! The other way round works fine ( "start value" set to 0 and the  
"end value"  set to 100 !!!


Now, you've got the problem: Dragging the thumb of one of the  
scrollbars or swichting from card 1 to card 2 or the other way round  
will trigger the showing up of this psychedelic multicoloured  
windmill-cursor  - and changing the thumbs' positions will be jerky.


I've tried out Revolution 2.5. up to 2.8.0 - it's always the same  
problem, so the problem hasn't anythig to do with the release of  
Revolution.



Cheers
Martin


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developing for Linux part 2

[Peter Alcibiades]

I forgot to mention one other very important aspect of the Linux environment: 
forking.  Because its all GPL, the source code is out there.  If a team or 
person doesn't take 'their' program where users want it to go, or think it 
can or should go, they can just take the code and do it themselves.  This 
means that you are writing closed source for an environment with very 
powerful competitive forces working on the opensource competition.  You could 
see this dramatically with xfree86 and xorg, which are or were the display 
drivers for X11.  There was widespread dissatisfaction with xfree86 which 
finally boiled over.  Within a few months, xorg had forked and everyone was 
using it.  Before, all distros used xfree86.  After, it fell off a cliff and 
none do.  They didn't have to create it from scratch, just from where xfree 
left off.

So suppose you write your app, and suppose it takes off, and suppose someone 
writes a clone, open source, and gets a bit lazy and doesn't do much with it.  
It is in the public domain, and anyone can seize it and make something better 
of it.  The only way he can keep it as his is to keep ahead of demand and the 
pack.  It means your competition is driven by and subject to competitive 
forces far greater than you are, because you can keep your stuff private so 
that only you can update it.  They cannot.  And this is why in the end the 
money in opensource is from support, not sales.  Sobering.

This for example explains the existence of PythonCard.  It is basically just 
an ide for Python - which was there, waiting to be used by someone who wanted 
to make a Hypercard like product.  But they did not have to write a scripting 
language from scratch.  There were a whole bunch of those to choose from 
already out there.

Now, on to  a few suggestions.  But bear in mind reading them, I don't do this 
for a living, and I am very light indeed on coding specifics!  Others may be 
able to add more on that.

1)  Don't worry about matching look and feel: its hopeless and unwanted.  
Specifically, don't worry about matching the look and feel of any particular 
distribution.  Because the look and feel doesn't vary with the distro so much 
as with the window manager and desktop environment.  And anyway, you are 
going to have both gnome and kde users and they will be using apps from both 
stables, so they will be used to things looking different.

2)  Do however test on multiple distros and multiple desktop environments to 
make sure that everything is visible and in the right place.  Fonts will vary 
unpredictably.  I've found on a tiny scale that its a good idea to leave more 
space than your development environment suggests you need around objects, 
because their positioning can vary just a bit between distros.

3)  Make sure you accomodate multiple users.  You have to decide in the 
installation whether you are installing for one user, or for all users.  If 
for one user, put your app in /home/user.  If for multiple users you should 
probably put it in /opt.

4)  Make sure you then follow the conventions on where to store user data.

You'll be tempted to think there is such a place as 'where the application 
is installed', and that perhaps you should keep your user data there.  Like, 
where is the programs folder?  This would be a mistake. There is no such 
place in Linux, except for your application and one or two others like it. 

There are two reasons.  One reason, which is both the glory and the shame of 
Linux (the shame because it leads to 'dependency hell') is that Linux uses 
shared libraries to a very high degree.  So if you take a typical Linux app, 
lets say part of the KDE Office suite, and you look for the database 
component, Kexi, you will not find anything that you can really consider the 
program Kexi and where it is installed.  You'll find a whole bunch of things 
scattered all over the system portion of the file structure. 

If you try to install Kexi with no KDE installed on a bare, non-KDE Debian or 
Ubuntu type system, where it gets all the dependencies for you, you'll be 
surprised to discover that you're downloading over 100Mb.  But Kexi itself is 
quite small.  Then you'll find that the rest of KOffice consumes very little 
extra space.  Its because you've already got the KDE libraries which are used 
by all the K apps.  Now, your application will be closed source and self 
contained, so it will be in one place.  But it is unusual in this.

The second reason is the accomodation of a multi user environment.  No well 
behaved Linux application will store user data in /opt, even if that's where 
it installs itself.  There are two reasons.  First, routine backups will only 
back up /home.  So that's where all user data should go.  The second is that 
you have to allow for multiple users to create identically named files, 
including preferences.  So you cannot put them all in one place.  

It follows that all user data belongs in /home/user, even if you are 
in

Re: scrollbars

[Ralf Bitter]

Hi Martin,

don't get the "windmill-cursor" here, and,
in contrast to your experience, I am not able
to drag the thumb at all if the start value is
greater than the end value.

(Tiger, latest 2.8 Rev version, testet in the IDE ony)

Ralf Bitter

On 24. Mrz 2007, at 11:15, Martin Meili wrote:


Hi there
• I've got a problem with scrollbars showing their thumbpositions  
if I run the stack on OSX Tiger. I f you open  the card holding  
more than one scrollbar it takes very long  until the card is ready  
and you can start your work. During this time the multicoloured  
windmill-cursor is shown. When your card is ready,  the changing of  
the scrollbars' thumbpositions is very jerky.


• The problem doesn't occur if I run the stack on OSX Panther, OS  
9.x and Windows 2000 (Pentium III / 1000 mhz), or if I switch off  
the "show value" property (in this case the stack runs also fast  
using OSX Tiger).


• How to trigger the problem:
- create a new stack with two cards
- go to card two and place some scrollbars on it
- set the "start value" of each to 100
- set the "end value" of each to 0
!!! The other way round works fine ( "start value" set to 0 and the  
"end value"  set to 100 !!!


Now, you've got the problem: Dragging the thumb of one of the  
scrollbars or swichting from card 1 to card 2 or the other way  
round will trigger the showing up of this psychedelic multicoloured  
windmill-cursor  - and changing the thumbs' positions will be jerky.


I've tried out Revolution 2.5. up to 2.8.0 - it's always the same  
problem, so the problem hasn't anythig to do with the release of  
Revolution.



Cheers
Martin


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Re: developing on linux part 1

[Peter Alcibiades]

I checked to be sure.  Started up Gnome, KDE and Windowmaker and fired up Rev 
and the same stack in them all.

What happens is that the borders and window colors change according to the 
environment.  So if, for instance, you've set your KDE theme to Sun, you'll 
see the purple surround on the app under KDE, and something quite different 
under Gnome, which might be set to minimal.  And Windowmaker will be the WM 
colors, whatever you have picked.   Obviously it puts the open and close 
icons in the standard places for the window manager.

But that's all.  Your buttons and fonts within the app are identical no matter 
what desktop you use, as you'd expect.  

I was saying, don't worry about trying to match a particular icon style with 
the buttons and fonts and graphical elements you create yourself, because 
this is something that will vary from installation to installation so there 
is nothing really to match to.  Unlike Mac especially or Windows to some 
extent, where there really is a house style for graphical elements.  And 
anyway, your Linux users will see Platinum style icons and not really worry 
that its a bit different from their other apps.  Whereas I suspect that your 
Mac users confronted with KDE style icons might abruptly lose their sense of 
humor and start muttering about Fisher Price.

You see the lack of a house style with Linux if you look at kmail and 
evolution.  Both on Gnome, one has the typical Gnome OS9 type folder icons, 
and kmail is, well, a bit more garish.

If I were going to test on one distro?  Debian, and I'd look at it in KDE, 
Gnome, Xfce and one of Fluxbox or Windowmaker.  But if I were doing it for a 
living, I'd do multiboot with at least Debian, Fedora, Suse and Ubuntu.  And 
maybe a Slack based one as well.  Just to be sure.  Most of the time it will 
be just fine.  Once in a while though, a field will overlap a button or 
something similar.


Peter

>You are saying that apps are built with links to a single
> environment.
>
> How does Rev fit into this? Do Rev apps for Linux include links to a
> specific environment?
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[off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Viktoras Didziulis]

Sorry, this is slightly off-topic, but I know there are many good-willed
MacOS users on this list :-) 
 
I have just acquired MacBook (MacOSX 10.4.8 Tiger, 1.83 Ghz Intel Core Duo,
etc...). 
Now facing a problem - what software to install to get Spreadheet like Open
Office Calc or MS Excell... Tried Open Office for Mac OSX (using OO on my
Windows and Linux boxes). But it looks like it is underdeveloped on MacOSX -
autofilter does not work correctly, problems with national fonts, very slow
scrolling in Calc - table is redrawn several times until it gets scrolled to
the right position. 
Could you please let me know what open source or proprietary spreadsheet
software do you usually use on your Macintoshes ? Do not mention Microsoft,
I already know this, now looking for cheaper alternatives. Thanks for any
advice! 
 
All the best, 
Viktoras
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Re: Family punchups

[Jerry Muelver]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

Why do I have a "funny feeling" that as Ubuntu seems
to gain Linux dominance it also seems to be acquiring
some rather unpleasant facets previously only seen
with commercial operating system?

It has "climbed into bed with Google" - who next we
wonder ?

All you lovers of liberty and non-conformity, methinks
tis time to move on elsewhere!



"Liberty and non-conformity", while enjoyable, are not an appropriate 
be-all and end-all for a creative, or even productive, experience. 
Standardization and conformity can offer freedom from constant 
relearning, widget-juggling, and irksome negotiating with the interface 
just to get a job done. Consider the haiku, and the freedom its severe 
constraints offer the poet.


It's not the limitation of the tool that matters, but what you can do 
within those limitations.


 Jerry Muelver
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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Stephen Barncard]

Appleworks should work fine in Rosetta.
It creates .xls and .doc files.

http://www.apple.com/appleworks/

available for $79

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/search/search.asp?search=appleworks&NavID_Search=false&submit1.x=0&submit1.y=0&CurDSN=simple&calledfrom=1&incimage=on


by the way, the REAL excel can be had for about $200 when not 
purchased in the suite.


http://www.smalldog.com/product/12652795




Sorry, this is slightly off-topic, but I know there are many good-willed
MacOS users on this list :-)

I have just acquired MacBook (MacOSX 10.4.8 Tiger, 1.83 Ghz Intel Core Duo,
etc...).
Now facing a problem - what software to install to get Spreadheet like Open
Office Calc or MS Excell... Tried Open Office for Mac OSX (using OO on my
Windows and Linux boxes). But it looks like it is underdeveloped on MacOSX -
autofilter does not work correctly, problems with national fonts, very slow
scrolling in Calc - table is redrawn several times until it gets scrolled to
the right position.
Could you please let me know what open source or proprietary spreadsheet
software do you usually use on your Macintoshes ? Do not mention Microsoft,
I already know this, now looking for cheaper alternatives. Thanks for any
advice!

All the best,
Viktoras


--


stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -



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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Bill Marriott]

Viktoras,

>>Could you please let me know what open source or proprietary spreadsheet
>>software do you usually use on your Macintoshes ? Do not mention 
>>Microsoft,
>>I already know this, now looking for cheaper alternatives. Thanks for any
>>advice!

Even if you were willing to give Bill Gates your cash, the real Excel is not 
a universal binary yet. I'd hold off until it is. Nothing like hearing your 
fans start up and accelerate to a dull roar, and chewing up your battery 
life... only to have to pay for an upgrade when it's available.

I really like NeoOffice. Works a lot prettier and cleaner than OpenOffice.

http://www.neooffice.org 



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Re: group horizontal scrollbar movement

[John Craig]

Thanks - you are right - did an update and it's fixed - happy days.

:-)


Devin Asay wrote:

On Mar 23, 2007, at 6:08 AM, John Craig wrote:

Anyone know if there is a reason why clicking on the arrows on a 
horizontal scrollbar on a group moves the thumb AWAY from the arrow 
you clicked on?  (Windows + Rev 2.8)


John,

Do you have the latest version of 2.8? I seem to recall reading about 
a scrollbar bug that sounds a lot like this that was fixed in a later 
version. I can't find it in the bug list just now, however.


Devin

Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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correction

[Marielle Lange]

About my previous email, please, if possible, ignore it. This was  
stupid most stupid of me to write this on the list.


A wish I had expressed was to keep away from the lists and runrev  
business for 2 months as I needed to focus on other projects. As I  
was in an unstable state of mind and preferred to stay away from  
doing stupid things I would come to later regret, I had in fact  
voluntarily unsubscribed myself from the use-list a few days ago.


Some misunderstanding has taken place, leading to inappropriate and  
much unfortunate escalate. Bob's schismogenetic comment is right. I  
have to confess some clear responsibility in this escalate.


Best regards,
Marielle


Marielle Lange (PhD),  http://widged.com
Bite-size Applications for Education





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Speaking/Reading a dialog - Problem Solved FYI

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Hi Everyone,

Some time back I asked this question of the list. Mostly, I was told  
it can't be done. As a curiosity I put the statement:
revSpeak "The text to be read"&prompt immediately before the Ask  
statement. Lo and behold, It starts reading the text and prompt ever  
so slightly before the dialog appears and then continues until it is  
finished while the Dialog is on the screen. There also appears to be  
no interference with the interaction with the Dialog. Problem solved!


Joe Wilkins


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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Kay C Lan]

On 3/24/07, Bill Marriott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I really like NeoOffice. Works a lot prettier and cleaner than OpenOffice.

http://www.neooffice.org



I'm also a NeoOffice user, but only to view the MS stuff people send me.
Don't really create anything with it. I fully agree though, it's better than
OpenOffice.

Still have AppleWorks, using with Rosetta is OK, actually had it up and
running earlier today to produce the tabulated results of a speed test
between FW400 and USB2 that appeared in a separate post on this list, but AW
is getting long in the tooth.

You might want to take a look at this.

http://www.x-tables.eu/more/overview.html

Have no experience with it myself, just did a google search and came up with
it. Only €40 and UB, so if you needs are basic it may be suitable.

HTH
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Re: Family punchups

[Bob Warren]

Chipp wrote:

>Bob,

Nice post. Where'd you find "schismogenetically" ??   ;-) 


--
Thanks. I made it up, of course. I knew you would be impressed.

Seriously, it is a term coined by Gregory Bateson, one of the not-totally-recognized 
geniuses of last century. He was an anthropologist, a biologist (like his father) and a 
philosopher. Perhaps one of his wives is better known because she made more stink in the 
world regarding women's liberation: Margaret Mead.  Gregory's best known publication 
probably is "Steps to an Ecology of Mind". It's a series of articles written 
throughout his life. Most of my own fundamental ideas about the way society works 
(doesn't work) come from this book.

Bob

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Re: correction

[Kay C Lan]

On 3/24/07, Marielle Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


About my previous email, please, if possible, ignore it.



Well I've ignored it.

Hope things work out, and when the time is right, we get to read you back on
the list:-)
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Re: must externals be written only in C/C++ ?

[Bernard Devlin]

Mark wrote


In principle, yes. How much control do you have over dll formatting in
FreePascal? My experience has been that Pascal compilers generate
uppercase exported symbols. You'll have to export mixed-case symbols
to work with rev's engine. And I believe, but I'm not sure, that
FreePascal allows you to set the calling protocol to stdcall rather
than the Pascal one (which I can't remember off the top of my head).
At any rate, it's documented in the sdk.


Thanks a lot for that information.  I asked the FPC developers and  
they pointed out that both of the above would not be an issue.   
However, on reflection I think that the easiest thing might be to  
wrap any such external functionality in an xml-rpc wrapper.  Once I  
have such a wrapper working I will be able to make calls through that  
(and it will work with either Rev or Python as an xml-rpc client).


It's been a revelation to me to be looking at Pascal again - I  
haven't touched Pascal for almost 20 years, but I was able to read  
and understand much of their code without looking at any reference  
material.  I wish I could say the same for code written in C.


Bernard.
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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Richard Gaskin]

Viktoras wrote:

Could you please let me know what open source or proprietary spreadsheet
software do you usually use on your Macintoshes ?


I've been using ThinkFree Office for years, now in Universal Binary:



US$49.95

A trial version is available, and the product comes with a 
RevOnline-style remote backup option at no additional cost.


I've found it to perform reasonably well for my needs, certainly above 
my expectations for the low cost of such a suite.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
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Re: developing on linux part 1

[Bob Warren]

Peter wrote:

[A whole lot of fantastic stuff]

-
Wow! Thanks for that, Peter. Perhaps in another 5 years or so, I'll know 
half of what you know about Linux. Now that the Linux ball has begun to 
roll in Rev, people like me need people like you, so don't go away, will 
you?


People need to discover the practicalities of dealing with Linux in 
their programming, and there is a lot of bewilderment out there. I have 
said repeatedly, "Let's kick off with Ubuntu", so much so that people 
with an "either/or" way of thinking have started to get the wrong 
impression, and some people are distinctly afraid of all this attention 
to a single distro.


What I have in mind is a pilot scheme regarding Rev/Linux.  Let's start 
with Ubuntu itself, the most dominant and easy to use distro currently, 
until we all know where we are and where we stand. Hell, that's already 
1000% better than not using Linux at all! Once this has been done, then 
the most natural thing is to move to Ubuntu-based Linuxes, and there are 
quite a lot of them nowadays (including Mepis, Mint, etc., etc.). In 
stage 3, the world is at our feet.


Rev have always been anxious to make their product as compatible as 
possible with the greatest number of Linuxes. This is great. But in 
practical terms during this initial stage, you only have to try using 
Rev 2.6.1 with a few of them in order to very quickly discover the 
problems involved. At this moment in Linux history, "compatibility" with 
a great number of Linuxes is perhaps possible, but guaranteeing that the 
Rev IDE works FULLY in more than a few Linuxes is probably impossible! 
And that's to say nothing of our own Rev applications that might have to 
face even more complex problems of compatibility.


To begin, we need a Rev Linux that works! Even if we select a single 
Linux like Ubuntu to begin with, we need to remember that Linux 
(including Ubuntu) is in a constant state of intensive development. For 
example, as you might know, I produced a pair of File/Picture Chooser 
Widgets for Ubuntu which included the detection and possible use of a 
floppy diskette drive. Since my first version, Ubuntu have changed 
completely the way they detect and mount floppies, and my widgets in 
their original version don't work any more! And Ubuntu didn't ask my 
opinion before they did it! So what is needed I think is the setting up 
of some kind of dialogue between Rev and the Linux producers (in this 
case Ubuntu) to make sure as far as possible that significant changes to 
the internal functioning of the OS's don't completely clobber 
applications such as those produced in Rev.


There are indications that RR are considering this idea.

Bob

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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[Phil Davis]

Ditto. I use it frequently.
Phil Davis



Bill Marriott wrote:

I really like NeoOffice. Works a lot prettier and cleaner than OpenOffice.

http://www.neooffice.org 

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Re: correction

[Bob Warren]

Marielle wrote:

About my previous email, please, if possible, ignore it. This was  

stupid most stupid of me to write this on the list.

A wish I had expressed was to keep away from the lists and runrev  
business for 2 months as I needed to focus on other projects. As I  
was in an unstable state of mind and preferred to stay away from  
doing stupid things I would come to later regret, I had in fact  
voluntarily unsubscribed myself from the use-list a few days ago.


Some misunderstanding has taken place, leading to inappropriate and  
much unfortunate escalate. Bob's schismogenetic comment is right. I  
have to confess some clear responsibility in this escalate.


Best regards,
Marielle

---
Marielle:

I know nothing about the issues that have taken place, and I am therefore 
totally unqualified to comment on them. But what is clear is the fact that it 
took some very good basic qualities in order to write the post cited above, and 
it warms my heart to see it on this UR-List.

Best wishes,
Bob


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Re: [off-topic] spreadsheet for MacOSX

[John Vokey]

Try Mariner Calc: not free, but inexpensive, and it is available as  
universal for OS X intel macs 

--
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See 

-Dr. John R. Vokey


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Re: error in function handler revPaletteObjects

[J. Landman Gay]

Kay C Lan wrote:

On 3/23/07, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I haven't traced the whole IDE for this, but I think cCurrentObject
simply stores the object that was last selected. This allows the IDE to
set up the property inpsector correctly when you open it, for example.



Then why is it only* in editable fields, not label fields, buttons etc. *I
haven't checked every object, but the Property Inspector seems to do OK 
with

label fields yet they don't have cCurrentObject.


Well, like I said, I haven't traced its function very thoroughly and I'm 
mostly just guessing -- maybe it is related only to table fields. What 
I'm pretty sure about is that it is an IDE-only property that won't 
affect your own stack. I think you are safe to ignore it.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Family punchups

[J. Landman Gay]

Peter Alcibiades wrote:

Possibly Jacque's font problem could be caused by some Linux installs not 
having the fonts you're using, and doing substitution? 


Yes, I'm sure that is the issue. It was pretty obvious when I looked at 
the field properties in my stack under Ubuntu. There is a difference in 
behavior with the Linux engine though, probably due to the fact that it 
is so far behind the other releases.


I knew I'd need an installed font to make it look right, and the scripts 
already branch to accomodate different platforms. A handler sets up the 
field properties depending on what's available in the OS. The problem I 
have is that if there is no consistent font in any Linux disto, I'm 
stuck as to what font to assign. The fields need to have a large display 
textsize. If the font is not available, it defaults not only to an 
unknown substitution font, but the textsize reduces to 10 point. In the 
context of my stack, the appearance is horrible. So I definitely need to 
know what fonts to assign at openstack so that the resizing won't happen.


After looking at the fontnames, I made a guess that "Sans" would be a 
universal system setting and that by replacing the textfont property 
with "Sans" for Linux, any distro would substitute the user's sans-serif 
system choice. That didn't happen. I don't know if Rev is just 
interpreting "sans" as a real font name, or if my assumptions about what 
should happen are wrong.


It would be great, if you know it, to hear whether there are any 
universal fonts or font settings across distros. I think the font issue 
is one of the biggest that cross-platform stack developers would need to 
address.


By the way, your posts are invaluable. I am saving every one of them, 
and I hope you write lots more. I know you feel you are talking to your 
grandmother, but for some of us, that's exactly the level we need. I 
very much appreciate the time you've taken to write up your extensive 
thoughts and I hope you'll keep going. Thanks very much.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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multicore and true threading

[Viktoras Didziulis]

Dear all, 
 
first of all thanks for all your responses on spreadsheet applications -
really helpful ! 
 
I've recently read this (http://www.gotw.ca/publications/concurrency-ddj
htm) and a few other writings and find myself a bit concerned about the
future :-). 
 
As we might know, the strategy in processor development 2 years ago started
switching direction from gaining on gigaherzes to pushing multiple cores
into a single chip. About that time Intel abandoned its 4 Ghz processor
plans and switched focus to multiple core chips. Recently it advertised
pushing more and more cores into a single chip - quadcore, octacore, etc...
This means we will likely see no 6 Ghz processor anytime soon and instead
threading will become essential within a few years. Without threading
developers will have to stick with only a fraction of computing power of a
single processor core. Does anyone know what are plans to implement true
threading within Revolution? Or, alternatively, are there plans to implement
multithreading at the engine level so that engine decides how to distribute
workload of an application in the most optimal way? Or maybe it is the OS
that will make the final decision... 
 
And a practical question - how to stop a long loop with a single click of a
button ? I tried 
on mouseclick 
exit to top 
end mouseclick 
without any success, i could't even get an opportunity to click that button,
because it is on an other stack/window which looses focus while loop is
executing ;-)... Are there any graceful recipes for this? 
 
All the best! 
Viktoras
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Re: multicore and true threading

[Mark Smith]

repeat forever
  if the mouse is down then exit repeat
  do stuff
end repeat


best,

Mark

On 24 Mar 2007, at 21:42, Viktoras Didziulis wrote:




And a practical question - how to stop a long loop with a single  
click of a

button ? I tried
on mouseclick
exit to top
end mouseclick
without any success, i could't even get an opportunity to click  
that button,
because it is on an other stack/window which looses focus while  
loop is

executing ;-)... Are there any graceful recipes for this?

All the best!
Viktoras
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Re: Bluetooth

[Matt]

On 3/19/07, Ken Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:08:45 -0600, Matt wrote:

> Does anyone know of the way that I could use BlueTooth to connect to my
Palm
> Pilot through Revolution? I am on a PowerBook G4 and would use the built
in
> Bluetooth. I know that i would have to use something like open socket,
but I
> don't know which socket to open.
>
> The purposes of this is that I would like to have a program that would
make
> the computer act like an external keyboard.

Sorry, Matt... I don't know what port you need either. Shame you're on
a Mac... there's a Windows program called TapSmart KeyLink for PCs that
does exactly what you are asking for:

  http://www.mobilityware.com/KeyLink/KeyLinkProduct.htm

Rated 5 stars on PalmGear.com from the couple dozen people who reviewed
it. Maybe this works through Parallels?


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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That is interesting, too bad it isn't for mac.

--
Matthew Peterson
Programmer
Christa McAuliffe Space Education Center
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Re: developing on linux part 1

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Bob,

> What I have in mind is a pilot scheme regarding Rev/Linux.  Let's start 
> with Ubuntu itself, the most dominant and easy to use distro currently, 
> until we all know where we are and where we stand. Hell, that's already 
> 1000% better than not using Linux at all!

FYI: About 10% of participants in the "Rev Open Beta" report using Linux, 
and are eagerly awaiting the Linux beta. About half of them use Ubuntu or a 
derivative. Next in popularity is SUSE/OpenSUSE, then Fedora, and the rest 
are Linspire and other Debian-based distributions. 



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Re: multicore and true threading

[Jim Ault]

if the altkey is down (same as the optionKey on the Mac)
if the controlkey is down (same as the commandKey on the Mac)
if the shiftkey is down

if the shiftkey is down and the controlKey is down then


Jim Ault
Las Vegas

On 3/24/07 4:48 PM, "Mark Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> repeat forever
>if the mouse is down then exit repeat
>do stuff
> end repeat
> 
> 
> best,
> 
> Mark
> 
> On 24 Mar 2007, at 21:42, Viktoras Didziulis wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> And a practical question - how to stop a long loop with a single
>> click of a
>> button ? I tried
>> on mouseclick
>> exit to top
>> end mouseclick
>> without any success, i could't even get an opportunity to click
>> that button,
>> because it is on an other stack/window which looses focus while
>> loop is
>> executing ;-)... Are there any graceful recipes for this?
>> 


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Enabling a Menu

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Hi all,

Probably something I'm doing wrong, but the following in an OpenCard  
handler doesn't do the job:


set the enable of button "Edit" of group "Coloring Book Menu Bar" of  
this cd to true


Initially, I tried it without the reference "of this cd", but it  
didn't work either.
Normally, this stack doesn't have a usable Edit Menu, but on some  
cards it will; hence the need to do this.


TIA,

Joe Wilkins

On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:59 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:


I am a newcomer to Revolution and the list. I am making small drill
standalones for my computer lab. I have looked and searched for
instructions on how to make the standalone app display a custom made
icon, but can't seem to find it. I have created the icon files in
PhotoShop using IconBuilder.

Is there a website anyone would recomend that addresses this or could
someone please help me with this.


Hi Karen,

Welcome to the Revolution!

I don't use Photoshop so I can't give you any advice about it's
plugin, but I use a shareware program called Iconographer (I see you
are on a Mac): .

Import your Photoshop icon or image into Iconographer, generate the
mask if needed, then "Complete Icon" to fill in all the other sizes.
If you save as a .icns file, that will work for Mac OS X applications.
Save as a .ico file for Windows.

In your stacks Standalone Settings, find the icons section for the
particular platform and select the icon file you just saved. On OS X,
when you build the app, it won' tlook as if it has the real icon. Copy
the app to another folder or zip & unzip it to make the icon appear.

Hope this helps,
Sarah
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Re: developing for Linux part 2

[Ken Ray]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:31:35 +, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> I am conscious that this is all a bit high level, but its what has 
> struck me, and if it prompts others to write more detailed dos and don'ts, 
maybe 
> it will have helped.

Peter, this is EXACTLY what I was hoping you'd share. Although I was 
aware of some of it, I'd say that 75% of what you had to say between 
this post and Part 1 was new to me. And your comparison with the Rev 
program itself is very informative; I hope RunRev is paying attention 
as when they release the next Linux upgrade it would be great to take 
into account some of the things you've said.

If you have any more insights, please share them!

:-)

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Enabling a Menu

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Well, I figured it out. You don't set "enable" to true. You set  
"disabled" to false.


Thanks, anyway,

Joe Wilkins

On Mar 24, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Joe Lewis Wilkins wrote:


Hi all,

Probably something I'm doing wrong, but the following in an  
OpenCard handler doesn't do the job:


set the enable of button "Edit" of group "Coloring Book Menu Bar"  
of this cd to true


Initially, I tried it without the reference "of this cd", but it  
didn't work either.
Normally, this stack doesn't have a usable Edit Menu, but on some  
cards it will; hence the need to do this.


TIA,

Joe Wilkins

On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:59 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:


I am a newcomer to Revolution and the list. I am making small drill
standalones for my computer lab. I have looked and searched for
instructions on how to make the standalone app display a custom made
icon, but can't seem to find it. I have created the icon files in
PhotoShop using IconBuilder.

Is there a website anyone would recomend that addresses this or  
could

someone please help me with this.


Hi Karen,

Welcome to the Revolution!

I don't use Photoshop so I can't give you any advice about it's
plugin, but I use a shareware program called Iconographer (I see you
are on a Mac): .

Import your Photoshop icon or image into Iconographer, generate the
mask if needed, then "Complete Icon" to fill in all the other sizes.
If you save as a .icns file, that will work for Mac OS X  
applications.

Save as a .ico file for Windows.

In your stacks Standalone Settings, find the icons section for the
particular platform and select the icon file you just saved. On OS X,
when you build the app, it won' tlook as if it has the real icon.  
Copy

the app to another folder or zip & unzip it to make the icon appear.

Hope this helps,
Sarah
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