Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

You're welcome to do it at revJournal.com if you like.  I can set up your 
own FTP account and you can do whatever you like in that section.


Replied off list

Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Richard Gaskin]

Scott Kane wrote:
Even though I read the list religiously and have lots of bookmarks to 
various Rev sites, it is still hard to remember whose site has what and 
even whether anyone has written a library or plugin for what I need. 
RevOnline doesn't offer a good search mechanism, so I'm not sure what is 
there unless I browse through hundreds of entries.


Same here.

I hope someone will set this up and encourage everyone who has offerings 
to upload.


Clearly, from comments on this list, this idea has been toyed with.  I have 
both the server space and a domain name that can do it, but I won't move 
forward until I either ascertain nobody is going to do it or that efforts to 
do it don't go anywhere.  Then again - I might decide just to go ahead with 
it.  If the community indicates I should go ahead then I'll just do it 
anyway.  :-)


You're welcome to do it at revJournal.com if you like.  I can set up 
your own FTP account and you can do whatever you like in that section.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "J. Landman Gay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I would love to see this happen. Preferably, the site would be at a 
common, public repository (SourceForge, maybe?) so that even non-Rev 
people would perhaps stumble across it. This would not only give us a 
single place to find everything, but possibly increase Revolution's 
exposure to the general public, which would be a very good thing.


Agreed.  Though I suspect SourceForge is so vast as to make it difficult for 
a newbie to locate Rev stuff.


Even though I read the list religiously and have lots of bookmarks to 
various Rev sites, it is still hard to remember whose site has what and 
even whether anyone has written a library or plugin for what I need. 
RevOnline doesn't offer a good search mechanism, so I'm not sure what is 
there unless I browse through hundreds of entries.


Same here.

I hope someone will set this up and encourage everyone who has offerings 
to upload.


Clearly, from comments on this list, this idea has been toyed with.  I have 
both the server space and a domain name that can do it, but I won't move 
forward until I either ascertain nobody is going to do it or that efforts to 
do it don't go anywhere.  Then again - I might decide just to go ahead with 
it.  If the community indicates I should go ahead then I'll just do it 
anyway.  :-)


Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[J. Landman Gay]

David Bovill wrote:

On 09/06/07, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Could I convince you to take your current energy
and apply it to something like this?



No problem! But I am not going to do this manually - cut and paste style -
so it needs to be integrated into the IDE - with a Rev based plugin - so
that people can easily publish. For now that rules out SourceForge and 
Yahoo

groups for me.


I didn't have anything that sophisticated in mind. I'd just like to see 
a public repository where anyone could upload their libraries and 
plugins. Integration never crossed my mind; mostly I'd just like to see 
everything stored in one place.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

On 09/06/07, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Could I convince you to take your current energy
and apply it to something like this?



No problem! But I am not going to do this manually - cut and paste style -
so it needs to be integrated into the IDE - with a Rev based plugin - so
that people can easily publish. For now that rules out SourceForge and Yahoo
groups for me.

Repositories once open sourced can easily be copied or mirrored around the
place via SVN or CVS - and within a year or so it looks like yahoo groups
will have an API - till the unless you have any better ideas - I will go
ahead and see if people find this useful.

If you want to discuss this in more detail maybe it would be better to
contact me off list?
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

OK - I'll make a start tonight. With regard to SourceForge it is not
possible to link their repositories directly into the Script Editor but now
that they have SVN - I can mirror code to SourceForge easily.

Does anyone have a preference for an initial library - something to start
with. My vote would be for something Html or web related - perhaps something
related to the new browser externals?  I am working on that now, and it is
less integrated into other stuff - so it would be a fresh start... but do
suggest a starting library if you want - I've got:


  - libOPN_Core.rev
  - libOPN_Browser.rev
  - libOPN_Colours.rev
  - libOPN_Data.rev
  - libOPN_DateTime.rev
  - libOPN_DragAndDrop.rev
  - libOPN_EQT.rev
  - libOPN_ExtraGeometry.rev
  - libOPN_FileAndFolder.rev
  - libOPN_Forms.rev
  - libOPN_Geometry.rev
  - libOPN_Html.rev
  - libOPN_Media.rev
  - libOPN_MenuExtras.rev
  - libOPN_Menus.rev
  - libOPN_Models.rev
  - libOPN_Movie.rev
  - libOPN_MVC.rev
  - libOPN_MVCExtras.rev
  - libOPN_Objects.rev
  - libOPN_Outline.rev
  - libOPN_ScriptExtras.rev
  - libOPN_Scripts.rev
  - libOPN_Shell.rev
  - libOPN_SIMPL.rev
  - libOPN_Stack.rev
  - libOPN_SVN.rev
  - libOPN_TreeAuthoring.rev
  - libOPN_TreeEditing.rev
  - libOPN_TreeExtras.rev
  - libOPN_Unsorted.rev
  - libOPN_Junk.rev


Junk is by far the biggest!


On 09/06/07, J. Landman Gay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Scott Kane wrote:
> A large repository detailing various code snippets and
> stacks would be very happy - especially to newer users initially - and
> in time helpful to others. Finding all the cool sites with code is no
> mean feat when starting out. While this is one of the best programming
> lists I know of it'd still be nice to go to a nice, organized site where
> everything is at your fingertips and easy to find (and explore).

I would love to see this happen. Preferably, the site would be at a
common, public repository (SourceForge, maybe?) so that even non-Rev
people would perhaps stumble across it. This would not only give us a
single place to find everything, but possibly increase Revolution's
exposure to the general public, which would be a very good thing.

Even though I read the list religiously and have lots of bookmarks to
various Rev sites, it is still hard to remember whose site has what and
even whether anyone has written a library or plugin for what I need.
RevOnline doesn't offer a good search mechanism, so I'm not sure what is
there unless I browse through hundreds of entries.

I hope someone will set this up and encourage everyone who has offerings
to upload.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[J. Landman Gay]

David Bovill wrote:


OK - lets give it a try. The web site is up, but I figure it is of little
use until it is integrated into the script editor which is partly done...
I'll work on that now. I guess a question is which library to get up 
first -

I'll dig up the list of existing libraries and see which one people would
like most to be worked on?


I appreciate the effort, David, and would love to see this online. But 
could it be moved to a place where everyone has access? Web sites change 
or go down, enthusiastic admins later run out of time or energy, people 
move on to other things. There's a bottleneck while contributors send 
their files and then need to wait for the admin to process and release 
them. At a public repository people can manage their own uploads, 
replace old files with newer versions instantly, and in general have 
more control. The libraries will also be accessible beyond the lifetime 
of a private web site. Could I convince you to take your current energy 
and apply it to something like this?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Mark Smith]

I'd certainly add my bits and pieces to such a repository

Best,

Mark

On 9 Jun 2007, at 19:25, J. Landman Gay wrote:


Scott Kane wrote:
A large repository detailing various code snippets and stacks  
would be very happy - especially to newer users initially - and in  
time helpful to others. Finding all the cool sites with code is no  
mean feat when starting out. While this is one of the best  
programming lists I know of it'd still be nice to go to a nice,  
organized site where everything is at your fingertips and easy to  
find (and explore).


I would love to see this happen. Preferably, the site would be at a  
common, public repository (SourceForge, maybe?) so that even non- 
Rev people would perhaps stumble across it. This would not only  
give us a single place to find everything, but possibly increase  
Revolution's exposure to the general public, which would be a very  
good thing.


Even though I read the list religiously and have lots of bookmarks  
to various Rev sites, it is still hard to remember whose site has  
what and even whether anyone has written a library or plugin for  
what I need. RevOnline doesn't offer a good search mechanism, so  
I'm not sure what is there unless I browse through hundreds of  
entries.


I hope someone will set this up and encourage everyone who has  
offerings to upload.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[J. Landman Gay]

Scott Kane wrote:
A large repository detailing various code snippets and 
stacks would be very happy - especially to newer users initially - and 
in time helpful to others. Finding all the cool sites with code is no 
mean feat when starting out. While this is one of the best programming 
lists I know of it'd still be nice to go to a nice, organized site where 
everything is at your fingertips and easy to find (and explore).


I would love to see this happen. Preferably, the site would be at a 
common, public repository (SourceForge, maybe?) so that even non-Rev 
people would perhaps stumble across it. This would not only give us a 
single place to find everything, but possibly increase Revolution's 
exposure to the general public, which would be a very good thing.


Even though I read the list religiously and have lots of bookmarks to 
various Rev sites, it is still hard to remember whose site has what and 
even whether anyone has written a library or plugin for what I need. 
RevOnline doesn't offer a good search mechanism, so I'm not sure what is 
there unless I browse through hundreds of entries.


I hope someone will set this up and encourage everyone who has offerings 
to upload.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

Ken - I talked to Hugh about doing this work before going off to the states.
I am back now, and quite happy to mirror "Scripter's Scrapbook" to the web
backend I've got up - if Hugh is still up for that.

On 09/06/07, Ken Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Well, there is an online code repository accessible through the
Scripters Scrapbook with 69 entries in it at the moment, and my
intention was to mirror those entries on the web, but I haven't had the
time. Having it in the Scrapbook though is more useful as it uses a
consistent format, is categorized by language, author, etc.

Just my 2 cents



On 09/06/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:David,

Perhaps a good start would be creating your own website and posting your

code there with the appropriate license and disclaimers. Start with only a
few. As people become comfortable with using your libraries, you can start
adding more. It doesn't have to be a large project unless you really want it
to be.



OK - lets give it a try. The web site is up, but I figure it is of little
use until it is integrated into the script editor which is partly done...
I'll work on that now. I guess a question is which library to get up first -
I'll dig up the list of existing libraries and see which one people would
like most to be worked on?
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Ken Ray]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:17:41 +1000, Scott Kane wrote:

> To: 
> 
>> Aren't there quite a number of open-source repositries around? What 
>> about Hugh Senior's "Scripter's Scrapbook" and the many sample 
>> stacks available from the sites  of Rev and Metacard users or on 
>> RevOnLine?
> 
> Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Guess it depends on one's perspective.  I 
> find RevOnline handy - but not always clear.  I find the Rev sites 
> like Chipps, Richards, Scott R's and Sarah's (etc and apologies for 
> those I've left out) very cool and very helpful and better organized 
> (clearer).  A large repository detailing various code snippets and 
> stacks would be very happy - especially to newer users initially - 
> and in time helpful to others. Finding all the cool sites with code 
> is no mean feat when starting out. While this is one of the best 
> programming lists I know of it'd still be nice to go to a nice, 
> organized site where everything is at your fingertips and easy to 
> find (and explore).  As I said this is a matter of perspective and 
> not perhaps of value to all.

Well, there is an online code repository accessible through the 
Scripters Scrapbook with 69 entries in it at the moment, and my 
intention was to mirror those entries on the web, but I haven't had the 
time. Having it in the Scrapbook though is more useful as it uses a 
consistent format, is categorized by language, author, etc.

Just my 2 cents,


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Provided of course the license for such code allowed them to use it.

With literally hundreds of FOSS licenses floating around and new ones 
being written each week, and considering few if any of these have been 
tested in court to they are in the end largely speculative, unless the 
license chosen were unusually simple (like X11) it would require 10 hours 
of paid legal consultation for every hour of programming saved by such 
code.  ;)


Well - I've never had anytime for the FOSS licenses.  If I choose to give 
out code to people (and I have as many have) then it's free for them to do 
with as they wish providing they don't just rename it and upload it claiming 
it is their own.  But at the end of the day I'm not naive enough to think 
that that will stop anybody if they are so inclined (and many sadly are so 
inclined).  :-)


Scott 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Richard Gaskin]

Scott Kane wrote:
Ah - but that's quite another thing.  A repositry of code as opposed to Rev 
being open source.  I think a lot of people would be quite happy to visit a 
repositry of code (and use the code).


Provided of course the license for such code allowed them to use it.

With literally hundreds of FOSS licenses floating around and new ones 
being written each week, and considering few if any of these have been 
tested in court to they are in the end largely speculative, unless the 
license chosen were unusually simple (like X11) it would require 10 
hours of paid legal consultation for every hour of programming saved by 
such code.  ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

To: 

Aren't there quite a number of open-source repositries around? What about 
Hugh Senior's "Scripter's Scrapbook" and the many sample stacks available 
from the sites  of Rev and Metacard users or on RevOnLine?


Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Guess it depends on one's perspective.  I find 
RevOnline handy - but not always clear.  I find the Rev sites like Chipps, 
Richards, Scott R's and Sarah's (etc and apologies for those I've left out) 
very cool and very helpful and better organized (clearer).  A large 
repository detailing various code snippets and stacks would be very happy - 
especially to newer users initially - and in time helpful to others. 
Finding all the cool sites with code is no mean feat when starting out. 
While this is one of the best programming lists I know of it'd still be nice 
to go to a nice, organized site where everything is at your fingertips and 
easy to find (and explore).  As I said this is a matter of perspective and 
not perhaps of value to all.


Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Wilhelm Sanke]

On Sat Jun 9 09:15:49 CDT 2007, Scott Kane scott at cdroo.com

Ah - but that's quite another thing.  A repositry of code as opposed 
to Rev
being open source.  I think a lot of people would be quite happy to 
visit a

repositry of code (and use the code).

Scott Kane 




Aren't there quite a number of open-source repositries around? What 
about Hugh Senior's "Scripter's Scrapbook" and the many sample stacks 
available from the sites  of Rev and Metacard users or on RevOnLine?


Wilhelm Sanke



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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

That is not what I tried to say - my assumption is the opposite. That 
there
are not enough people interested in a shared open source repository to 
make
the effort worth while - that is I assume that the silent majority 
disagree

with my view on the benefits of this.


Ah - but that's quite another thing.  A repositry of code as opposed to Rev 
being open source.  I think a lot of people would be quite happy to visit a 
repositry of code (and use the code).


Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Wow! That guy's the definition of prolific. Wonder when he sleeps?


Real programmers don't need sleep.  You know that, Chipp!  

Scott
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

?

On 09/06/07, Scott Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


A "subset of the list".  No offence intended, David.  But why is it that
when people get really passionate about their favourite wheel barrow that
they are pushing that they so often seem to assume that the "silent
majority" agree with them



That is not what I tried to say - my assumption is the opposite. That there
are not enough people interested in a shared open source repository to make
the effort worth while - that is I assume that the silent majority disagree
with my view on the benefits of this.
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/8/07, Scott Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


www.torry.net

Here's a summary of what the site holds in terms of source code, products
etc:

Authors total:  4179
Products total:  8703
Files total:  10330




Wow! That guy's the definition of prolific. Wonder when he sleeps?
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

Authors total:  4179
Products total:  8703
Files total:  10330


I hit send to quickly.  I meant to add - imagine that on a per-capita scale
for Rev.  I can, frankly.  I'd like to see it happen.  Free source snippets,
commercial (for sale) source snippets, libraries etc et al.  Would Rev users
pay?  If they are anything like other coders (i.e. "human") then yes, I
believe so.  Saving ten minutes everytime you need to code something obscure
adds up.  I recently bought two wonderful products from a Rev based company.
Both tools can integrate into Rev and both tools are simply stunning.  They
have saved me hours of work already and they were priced reasonably.  I
don't want the source code as I'm happy for them to work their magic.   Two
thumbs up for commercial solutions and not some half baked, half whacked,
half completed and half bug tested open source "solution" that the author
may or may not get back to finishing one of these days... maybe...if I feel
like it, which phase is the moon in, who won the world series, heck I'm no
longer interested and the project withers and dies.

Scott Kane

P.S.

The products where Button Gadget and Interface Designer from Altuit.

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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


I remember it well as I had spent a bunch of time creating it, only to end
up killing it based upon your loud objections of being there first. I
expected great things from your subsequent offering-- which never came 
('in

2 weeks' was what  you said). My first introduction to the Open Source
community.


It's a pattern I've seen in respect of other communities for programming 
tools too.  Yet.  Funny enough the ones who have a commercial bent (i.e. 
they earn money from it somewhere along the line) take off and become little 
Meccas of source code and tools.  For example:


www.torry.net

Here's a summary of what the site holds in terms of source code, products 
etc:


Authors total:  4179
Products total:  8703
Files total:  10330


Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/8/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Ah - way back. though I dont remember anything about RROpenSource.
Actually
I did set up a project on SourceForge,



I remember it well as I had spent a bunch of time creating it, only to end
up killing it based upon your loud objections of being there first. I
expected great things from your subsequent offering-- which never came ('in
2 weeks' was what  you said). My first introduction to the Open Source
community.
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Maybe that was a mistake, and all it ever takes it pig headed stubborness
and following through - but without encouraging signs from RunRev itself 
or

a subset of the list - well maybe its not such a good idea after all?


A "subset of the list".  No offence intended, David.  But why is it that 
when people get really passionate about their favourite wheel barrow that 
they are pushing that they so often seem to assume that the "silent 
majority" agree with them, when in fact they may indeed disagree 
completely - but being silent one never actually knows?


Scott Kane 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

On 08/06/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 6/8/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In 2002, I built an website titled "RROpenSource" which had the ability
for
users to contribute Open Source RR projects online. Ready to launch, I
disclosed it only to a few, I believe you included. If I recall correctly,
you mentioned you were working on a similar project and requested I not
release RROpenSource as you were almost ready to launch. So, it never came
to light.



Ah - way back. though I dont remember anything about RROpenSource. Actually
I did set up a project on SourceForge, and scripted CVS integration into the
MC IDE, also built Rev based cgi site on SourceForge which surprised me that
they allowed it being so security conscious.

There were several attempts - some before this and some since. MC IDE went
open source, Alain Farmer started / continued a project as did Xavier -
honestly i don't think anyone was ready back then, and my judgement was that
without proper integration into the development environment this was not
going to take off without RunRev itself being behind it.

Maybe that was a mistake, and all it ever takes it pig headed stubborness
and following through - but without encouraging signs from RunRev itself or
a subset of the list - well maybe its not such a good idea after all?
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/8/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


There are reasons that there are very very few robust
developer contributed libraries in our community while there are good ones
in python and ruby, and OK ones in php. This can and should change, and a
carefully planned open source strategy would be a low cost part of that
change.



In 2002, I built an website titled "RROpenSource" which had the ability for
users to contribute Open Source RR projects online. Ready to launch, I
disclosed it only to a few, I believe you included. If I recall correctly,
you mentioned you were working on a similar project and requested I not
release RROpenSource as you were almost ready to launch. So, it never came
to light.

Just wondering if that is still part of your 'carefully planned open source
strategy' ? I suppose that project probably ended up in the 'under 10%'
activity filter as well.
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

On 08/06/07, Andre Garzia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Good OSS is here to solve a problem. Usually a problem that is not

being solved by the mainstream players. The good ones are also managed
like a "enterprise", so again, what is the problem that an OSS RunRev
would solve? I see nothing wrong right now.



While I agree that we live in a perfect world, and that open source
methodology builds on top of the need to scratch itches, I would not
directly conclude that open source is only their to solve technical issues.
Fundamentally open source has a track record at building large user bases
for software projects with small budgets, or alternatively to "dramatically
lower the cost of the acceptance of a language by a technical community".

Of course there are and have been things Id like to do with the source code
which I have not been able to take forwards or even experiment with the
possibilities... I think other developers would have and would have been
attracted to the platform if this were possible.

But mainly I'd like a larger developer community producing better and more
robust libraries that were free to play with and you could buy if you need
to close the source. There are reasons that there are very very few robust
developer contributed libraries in our community while there are good ones
in python and ruby, and OK ones in php. This can and should change, and a
carefully planned open source strategy would be a low cost part of that
change.
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Andre Garzia]

I don't believe that SF and Freshmeat numbers can really be trusted.
They measure activity based on interaction with their site using some
math. Most OSS software also have their own page with mirrors and the
like, this traffic and interaction is not measured by SF or Freshmeat.

I think that the amount of unhealthy OSS project must be way beyond
1%. Like 70% or something like that, I keep seeing people forking
projects and creating little projects without a clue of what it takes
to manage a sucessful open project. From silly stuff like "a project
to bring true artificial inteligence to computers" done by hack4rs
that learn from computers by watching the pirates of sillicon valley
replays to unmeasurable amount of linux distros trying to be the next
redhat or ubuntu, just go to distrowatch and check how many linux
distros are nothing but debian with a new backdrop and boot screen.

Good OSS is here to solve a problem. Usually a problem that is not
being solved by the mainstream players. The good ones are also managed
like a "enterprise", so again, what is the problem that an OSS RunRev
would solve? I see nothing wrong right now.

On 6/8/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Wow! Thaks for the post Chipp - always good to have some hard facts.

2000 out of *150,114* projects - really is that all?  That makes 2/150 - or
less that 1% of projects! I would have guessed it as more like 20%

How many non-open source software projects end up in the scrap heap - more
of less than 1%?


On 08/06/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 6/7/07, Peter Alcibiades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The world is just not the way you are suggesting it is, and it is so
> > obviously
> > not that way, that there is little point in asserting it is.
>
>
> A quick  search at sourceforge shows close to 2000 projects with less than
> 10% activity. So, it appears at least a healthy part of Open Source
> projects
> may end up exactly as Paul is suggesting.
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

Wow! Thaks for the post Chipp - always good to have some hard facts.

2000 out of *150,114* projects - really is that all?  That makes 2/150 - or
less that 1% of projects! I would have guessed it as more like 20%

How many non-open source software projects end up in the scrap heap - more
of less than 1%?


On 08/06/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 6/7/07, Peter Alcibiades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> The world is just not the way you are suggesting it is, and it is so
> obviously
> not that way, that there is little point in asserting it is.


A quick  search at sourceforge shows close to 2000 projects with less than
10% activity. So, it appears at least a healthy part of Open Source
projects
may end up exactly as Paul is suggesting.

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Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Peter Alcibiades]

Chipp rightly points out that there are very many open source projects which 
are started, and then wither.  He points to the 2,000 or so low activity 
projects on SourceForge.  He could also point to a high proportion of the 
distributions on DistroWatch.   

On the other hand, in programming environments, look at Perl, Python, Lua, 
Gtk, Qt, fltk, Fox.   Look at their history.  They haven't fragmented 
into incompatible streams, they haven't withered.  

So what does the evidence prove?  Not much.  It might work, as some 
programming environments evidently do, or it might not, as probably many 
haven't.

Going open source is a bit like writing it in Perl.  People have written stuff 
like this in Perl and its worked.  Others have written stuff like this in 
Perl and failed.  Does this mean we should stick to writing it in C like we 
always have?  No.  It tells you nothing one way or the other.  Do you have 
problems with productivity?  Do you have the feeling that a lot of what you 
are doing would be so much simpler in Perl?  Well, think hard about moving, 
but think the whole thing through before you decide.

It just says, think through the open source question with the same rigor with 
which you would design a program.  Just because its business strategy does 
not mean its easy or doesn't require proper analysis.

For Rev, to go open source is not a simple well defined thing, and does not 
just mean lets have anarchy and give away the engine.  And it does not have a 
predictable defined outcome in terms of profitability that you can forecast 
by looking at other projects.  And, it might not work.  

I can tell you one thing for sure though.  It will not lead to a combination 
of multiple incompatible streams AND a total lack of development. There's no 
evidence this happens.  One or the other, but not both!

Peter
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

A quick  search at sourceforge shows close to 2000 projects with less than
10% activity. So, it appears at least a healthy part of Open Source 
projects

may end up exactly as Paul is suggesting.


Or an "unhealthy" part  ;-)

Scott 


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/7/07, Peter Alcibiades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



The world is just not the way you are suggesting it is, and it is so
obviously
not that way, that there is little point in asserting it is.



A quick  search at sourceforge shows close to 2000 projects with less than
10% activity. So, it appears at least a healthy part of Open Source projects
may end up exactly as Paul is suggesting.

-Chipp
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Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Peter Alcibiades]

Look, I don't want to get us off into off-topic flame wars, and I don't think 
necessarily that going Open Source is the answer for Rev, or that it would 
have been for HC.  Its worth serious consideration is all I would argue.

But you have to say that these remarks really misrepresent the Open Source 
situation totally, and if you want the proof of it, just look around you.  
Start by looking at Python, Perl and Apache.   Or look at the Gimp.  Or look 
at such a massively complex undertaking as the Debian distribution (I mention 
it only because its distributed elected management, so its classic Open 
Source, and if it can work here, it can work anywhere).   Or look at KDE and 
the suite of applications they have developed and integrated.  Look at Gnome 
for that matter.

Yes there are Debian derivatives.  No they are not vapourware, no they are not 
incompatible, and they complement it.  It is a different model, and it would 
be more productive to get used to it and understand its strengths and 
weaknesses than to misrepresent it wholesale.

Open source packages and development environments can be at least as complex 
as Rev and have a continued history of development and enhancement, and be 
perfectly usable and stable. 

The world is just not the way you are suggesting it is, and it is so obviously 
not that way, that there is little point in asserting it is.

Peter





> Perhaps:
> 1. HyperTalk is never converted from an interpreted language to a
> compiled one - no one wants to commit the resources
> 2. Five different developers rewrite the HC engine to support five
> different ways of adding color
> 3. Businesses refuse to touch HC because there are 20 different
> versions (HC - Berkeley, HC - SD, etc.)
> 4. Of the 20 versions of HC, 15 are "vaporware"
> 5. HC spawns 30 incompatible clones
> 6. All of the clones combined have a 2% market share (compared to VB,
> the "Standard RAD")
> 7. Since no one was making money on it, no "serious" development was
> done for the last 19 years
> Paul Looney
y
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Richard Gaskin]

As a team member of one of the longest-running Rev-based open source 
projects, the MC IDE, I share much of the enthusiasm for the benefits of 
the process and, with more than a dozen others, have translated that 
enthusiasm into action.


But on balance, I believe a lot of that success is due to the limited 
scope of the project, since we're working only on the IDE stacks and the 
engine remains funded through sales.


I think many elements in your list support that view, that for Rev we 
have a good balance between traditional and open source funding:



David Bovill wrote:

   1. Visual Basic would not have had the success that it did as
   companies re-hacked HyperTalk to fit their business needs


Yet Visual Basic has enjoyed that success as a proprietary product.

If Apple had remained as committed to HC as Microsoft has been with VB, 
HC could have continued to play as central a role in evangelizing the OS 
as VB has, whether or not it was open source (Note to Apple:  the world 
is bigger than Widgets).



   2. We'd have got colour and video and object orientation well ahead of
   the competition


The competition was SuperCard and MetaCard.  SuperCard introduced color 
in 1989, and video in 1990.  MetaCard premiered in 1992.  HyperCard was 
still in development at Apple when these competing products were 
introduced.  While it may be politically incorrect to suggest this, I 
believe that Apple had the opportunity to integrate color directly into 
the product but simply dropped the ball.


True object orientation is still absent from the xTalk world though, and 
I agree it would be a boon to see some of that in the language.



   3. MetaCard would have been born as an Open Source company based
   around customising the engine for larger corporations


Unlike IBM, Adobe, Apple, Sun, and others who fund open source projects 
of the level of complexity as the MetaCard virtual machine, MetaCard 
Corp. didn't have multiple larger revenue streams to allow the company 
to give away free software.   Like Rev today, MC Corp. had the engine as 
its main product, and relied on that sales revenue to fund its development.


Why doesn't Apple open source OS X? Or Adobe with Photoshop?  It seems 
that companies open source products for strategic reasons, and only when 
they have sufficient revenue from non-open-source products to fund it.


Even when we look at Mozilla and the various open source contributions 
from universities, ultimately most of the money driving that development 
comes from commercial sources.


If anyone here can muster the cash to acquire Rev and open source it, at 
the right price I would imagine Kevin would go along with it.  But 
software is expensive to develop, and thus far we haven't seen a funding 
source which would cover those expenses with Rev.




   4. RunRev would have produced the RevIde and repackaged it for a new
   market - without the same start-up costs


If this is a question of IDEs tailored for specific markets, remember 
that an IDE is just a collection of stacks so there's nothing stopping 
anyone from making an IDE for any niche they find.  Rev licenses for the 
engine to drive it are cheap, and there's already one open source IDE 
available, MetaCard.  The only limitation here seems to be finding folks 
who can afford to write IDEs for free.  I'd like to do that myself, but 
I still have some retirement goals to meet before I can give away all of 
my work.



   5. Others Galaxies would have been produced


Yet the Galaxy we have is commercial.


   6. We'd have got these benefits cheaper, they would have got more
   customers


True, free is a price that can't be beat. :)


   7. Businesses would be making money with the engine and there would be
   many many such businesses


In my shop alone I assist more than a dozen business making money with 
Rev, and directly manage development in three of them.  And I'm just a 
lone gunman; when we add up the hundreds of others developing commercial 
applications with Rev it's a reasonably strong number.


Of course if Rev were free that number would be higher, but who pays the 
piper?


The money I earn from development is affordable to businesses because 
I'm using a high-level virtual machine.  If they also had to pay for the 
VM development those costs would skyrocket.


As it is, under the current egalitarian funding model we get the VM 
development costs amortized by having everyone pay the same low upgrade fee.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[simplsol]

Perhaps:
1. HyperTalk is never converted from an interpreted language to a 
compiled one - no one wants to commit the resources
2. Five different developers rewrite the HC engine to support five 
different ways of adding color
3. Businesses refuse to touch HC because there are 20 different 
versions (HC - Berkeley, HC - SD, etc.)

4. Of the 20 versions of HC, 15 are "vaporware"
5. HC spawns 30 incompatible clones
6. All of the clones combined have a 2% market share (compared to VB, 
the "Standard RAD")
7. Since no one was making money on it, no "serious" development was 
done for the last 19 years

Paul Looney

-Original Message-
From: David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: How to use Revolution 
Sent: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 3:40 am
Subject: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 
years ago?
How would the world of software languages that we know of now be 
different? 

 
Perhaps: 
  1. Visual Basic would not have had the success that it did as 

  companies re-hacked HyperTalk to fit their business needs 

  2. We'd have got colour and video and object orientation well ahead 
of 


  the competition 

  3. MetaCard would have been born as an Open Source company based 

  around customising the engine for larger corporations 

  4. RunRev would have produced the RevIde and repackaged it for a new 

  market - without the same start-up costs 

  5. Others Galaxies would have been produced 

  6. We'd have got these benefits cheaper, they would have got more 

  customers 

  7. Businesses would be making money with the engine and there would 
be 


  many many such businesses 
 

Have some fun and picture it - dream or nightmare? It's a serious 
question, 


for those thinking of investing their skills. 

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Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[David Bovill]

How would the world of software languages that we know of now be different?

Perhaps:

  1. Visual Basic would not have had the success that it did as
  companies re-hacked HyperTalk to fit their business needs
  2. We'd have got colour and video and object orientation well ahead of
  the competition
  3. MetaCard would have been born as an Open Source company based
  around customising the engine for larger corporations
  4. RunRev would have produced the RevIde and repackaged it for a new
  market - without the same start-up costs
  5. Others Galaxies would have been produced
  6. We'd have got these benefits cheaper, they would have got more
  customers
  7. Businesses would be making money with the engine and there would be
  many many such businesses

Have some fun and picture it - dream or nightmare? It's a serious question,
for those thinking of investing their skills.
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